Episode 487: Rachel Entrekin | Cocodona 250 Course Record
Rachel Entrekin recently cemented her legacy in the growth of multiday trail ultramarathons with her outright course record and third win at the Cocodona 250. We talk about how her race played out, her life has changed since going pro earlier this year, and what her performance has taught us about the many variables to success at multiday ultramarathons.
For a full picture of Rachel’s transition into professional ultra runner, please check out my previous episode with her, Episode 477: Cocodona 250 Ultra Champ | Rachel Entrekin
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Timestamps:
Episode Transcript:
[00:00:00] Rachel Entrickin, welcome back. Thanks. Yeah, happy to be back. I feel like I was just here, but Yeah, I know. You were here not that long ago, and it was actually exciting to see everything play out the way it did for you at Cocodona, 'cause I kinda felt like that interview was timed in a way that it was probably as you were kinda getting into really focusing on this new year, which included Cocodona as a big target, and I'm just glad we were able to chat about kinda what you were thinking about all of that now that we actually have the, the path that ended up being taken and where you ended up with it.
So I'm really excited to add this one to that. Yeah. I know. I guess this is just part two. Yeah, part two. You know, the, the f- funny thing is, I'll say this, and people can accuse me of lying if they want, uh, 'cause I don't have any public record of this, but I did predict you to win. Really? And I predicted you to win because you said something on that first interview we did that had me thinking about what your potential would maybe be, and I can't remember which race you said exactly.
It might have even been more than one, but you were [00:01:00] talking about your fueling strategies in some of your prior ultras, and you had said something about eating very little or almost next to nothing for long stretches of time at a few races that you actually did quite well at. Mm-hmm. And that you had started working with Precision Fuel and Hydration, um, and Emily over there.
And Emily's great. She actually helped me a bit with some stuff lo- going into Equalizer 12-hour last October. And you had mentioned on that episode that you are now very comfortable getting 60 grams as kind of a baseline. Yeah. And I remember thinking at that time, it's if she's doing what she was doing on that- Yeah
low of intake, and now she's normalized, if that translates to however many hours it ends up taking to finish Cocodona, it's gonna be faster. Yeah. So that was enough for me to, to, to bet on you. I, I'll, I'll be honest though- Aw ... I did not bet on you winning outright. I, I had, I, I, I thought that you would win the women's race, but I didn't necessarily think you were gonna win outright, so.
I don't think anybody predicted what was gonna happen, which I think makes it, which I think makes it so fun, 'cause, I mean, I personally, from my own [00:02:00] race and from the men's race, like, all of my predictions were wildly incorrect, so. But, uh, yeah, I- like I said, I think that just helps add to the puzzle of well, what does make a good multi-day runner and- Mm-hmm
what strategies are there that, I don't know, people can take in order to be successful at these distances. So yeah, it's, it was, it was a really fun race to be a part of, and I'm, I'm, I am just as shocked as everybody at the outcome, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, I'm, I'm sure some of it is still settling in with you of everything that happened and, you know, how it, it...
I mean, it's essentially a life-changing degree, to some degree with, with the amount of exposure you get after something like that. I wanna dive a little bit into your fueling strategy, though. The, one of the cool things, I think, that... I just did an episode that, just kinda like a news episode recently, at the beginning of the week, and I used Cocodona as kinda the topic of that one.
I just tried to kind of calculate some of the variable, or some of the ingredients that kinda went into why it's such a popular event, [00:03:00] or why so many people are paying attention to it, 'cause it jumped outside of the running world. It was, it wasn't just- Oh, yeah ... even ultra-running or just running in general.
It was, like, big media outlets outside of running. And there's a bunch of things that go into that, but one of them that I found intriguing was you do have this scenario where you get a brand like Precision, and they're working with you, right? And they wanna show off what you've been working on with them.
So we get access to that during the event itself. They'd see you- Yeah ... coming through the aid stations. We could see your crew there, and they would have all your stuff there. And it looked like you were doing quite a bit of gels and stuff while you were out on the course, but then doing oatmeal and things like that in the aid stations.
Yeah. Um, yeah. So I, I mean, the first, uh, we'll call it the first day, because there's really only, um, only really, before mile 75, there's only one point in which I can see my crew, and it's at mile 37. So I'm doing 0 to 37 basically I can pick up water, um- Mm-hmm ... at two different points, but I'm basically on [00:04:00] my own.
Um, and so they just loaded me down with everything. I did, I did drink mixes and gels. I would say it was, like, 80% of my diet throughout the entire race, which is insane considering a year ago I wasn't even eating gels. So yeah. But, uh, but yeah. And so I was, I was doing a lot of PF 90s, and their carbon electrolyte drink mix.
And then, uh, I don't know, uh, especially as the race wears on, you do kind of, Gels just, they can, they can keep hunger at bay to some extent for me, but there's, you just want something a little heartier, I guess. Mm-hmm. And so especially into the night, I don't know, I just, I find that real food is very satisfying, but I still just didn't wanna expend the extra energy to actually chew anything.
Yeah. So a lot f- uh, and I discovered this at Mammoth, actually, um, because ramen you actually do have to chew a little bit. Mm-hmm. But rice you don't. So I would just do rice and broth with salt and stuff in it, and that was [00:05:00] solid. A lot of oatmeal was kinda solid, and then mashed potatoes kinda are the classic Rachel Inchican move at this race.
But, but yeah. And, you know, the, too, as, as the race wears on, I did probably dip in my grams of carbs per hour. And so getting into the big aid stations and getting to kind of refuel with some of those heartier, more dense things, kinda helped me keep my numbers stable. Because I guess- Mm-hmm ... Emily took all inventory.
I'm excited to see the study or whatever that she puts out. Um- But she took inventory of everything I was eating and said that I was able to actually maintain around 60 grams per hour, which for something that's 56 hours long, like I'm pretty stoked. 'Cause, I mean, there were times during, especially that second and third day, where I was just so over it, and then I would just get to the aid station and chow down on whatever.
And, and so it's, it's really nice to hear that I actually was able to average out the correct amount of carbs per hour. Um, but yeah, no, I could... Uh, Emily, I, ugh, I know I'm like the [00:06:00] face of all of this stuff, but this face would not be here without Emily, 'cause she's... I don't know what kind of wizardry she and Precision are doing, but it's really been great to have her on my team.
She's the best. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it, it was, it was like the most perfect advertisement, I think, because- Honestly ... you looked so smooth the entire time. And that, that's the other thing too, it's like you're- watching this live stream, one of the more exciting things is always just, or just being at aid stations in general, I was at Cocodona a couple years ago, 'cause I had enough coaching clients there where I was like, I wanted to be there, I wanted to learn more about it as a coach and see everything happen.
And you do see a lot of variance from one person to the next, or one person from one aid station to the next. Whereas every ti- and you, you had a lot of spotlight, 'cause you were, you know, up in front. But- Yeah ... that just meant we got to see you go through basically every aid station that had a camera on it.
And- Yeah ... every time you went through, you basically looked the same. And s- sort of put the nail in that coffin, running up Elden and then sprinting into the [00:07:00] finish looking like… W- which was the most viral video, by the way. It's like all these mainstream outlets got ahold of that. They're like, "How is she running so fast after 250 miles?"
Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. I've- I guess you know you've made it when people start accusing you of doping, which I think is- Yeah. ... crazy. But yeah, I've gotten "Oh, this is sus." And it's funny, because the brand Mammoot- Yeah, yeah ... they are, like, really attacking all those, all those stupid people on, I don't have Twitter or X or whatever it's called, but they've, they've been, like, p- reposting a bunch of dumb people commenting that I must be on- Yeah
drugs. And it's is it just that impossible to bel- I mean, I guess it, admittedly it is impossible to believe, but, but yeah, I guess, I guess you know you've made it when people start accusing you of doing wild things. But yeah, I don't know. I, I think… I was, I was talking to Dylan Bowman yesterday on their Free Trail episode.
And I don't know what it is about, about Cocodona, but me in that race, just at a fundamental level whatever qualities I have just are [00:08:00] necessary in order to have a good time at Cocodona. You have to just kinda be willing to roll with it. You have to be willing to radical acceptance, I think.
Mm-hmm. And I've, I've done a lot of work in my personal life on just, okay there's nothing I can do about this, and so- Just accept it, do what you can, and move on. And I think that is a really important, not, you know, maybe even more important than how fit you are, is radical acceptance is really key to, to being successful at multi-days and, and particularly Cocodona.
Yeah. So yeah, I think, I think it did a lot to kind of help me keep my mood, and I mean, in con- in conjunction with fueling. I think fueling helps me keep my mood elevated. But, um, just kind of looking at everything as like a puzzle that you get to solve on the fly in real time, it makes it really, really fun.
And so, yeah, I gen- I genuinely have a really good time out there and feel like I'm able to unlock different things about myself on that, on that course in particular. Yeah. It was interesting. I thought we learned a lot from, from you and from Kilian [00:09:00] and, and other runners in the, in Cocodona this year just with respect to kind of how we need to look at these races going forward and, to some degree, how we weigh the variables that go into performance here.
And a few kind of stood out to me. With, with yous, with you, since you ran such a solid race, it almost felt I remember years ago, you'll probably remember this too, where it was like the conversation around 100-milers was it's, it's not gonna be perfect, and you're gonna make a mistake, and when you make that mistake, you need to be able to course correct, and the person who wins is gonna be the one who corrects their mistakes the best.
Yeah. And I think there's some truth to that still, but, 'cause there's also, you can always go back and nitpick stuff and change things in your mind. Right. But the 100 miles kind of got to a point where it's, you, you almost can't make mistakes, where a mistake will cost you enough. And so, you kind of have to look at it a little bit like that, too.
And then you kind of get into these multi-days, you're like, well, well, that's still alive in the multi-days. You don't have this everyone's gonna have this example of this really big low or this really big issue that obviously slowed them down, if they could fix that. [00:10:00] But then you have to accept some of it.
It looked like yours was almost as close to what we've seen in some of these multi-days to where whatever plan you had was executed quite well, and there weren't really any big things that stood out that, that slowed you down that much. No, and I would say that last year was the same. I really, after, after last year's Cocodona, I even, I remember going on record saying "Yeah, I don't think the perfe- perfect race exists, but if it does, I came close to it."
'Cause, I mean, even last year I, I don't think, I never, I never really had any big lows. I never really had any real issues. So to me, it's, it's funny that I can have two perfect races and the, and the difference between those two is seven hours. Mm-hmm. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know what... It's funny because Dylan was also asking me "Yeah, where did you find all that time?"
Because I mean- Right, what changed? I don't know, dude. I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, obviously I think the weather this year was really good. Um, I think it was, I was able to, I still carried too much water on the first [00:11:00] day. I always carry too much water on the first day. But, um, but I was able to carry less water than necessary, like- Um, the min- the minimum allowed is four liters, and I didn't have to stop to fill up, um, because I still had enough water because it just wasn't that hot.
Um, I do-- I mean, I think a big thing that helped me go faster was less mental stress going in because, you know, I, I, I'm professional now. I didn't have to, I didn't have to stress over flights or taking off work or getting back to work or writing notes or, you know, on Thursday night kind of thing. I could just, I could just focus on the race.
And, two, I wasn't afraid that, like-- I wasn't afraid to go a little harder because if I deplete myself, great, like I don't have to go back to work on Monday. Mm-hmm. Um, whereas every other time I've done this race, I've had to keep that in the back of my mind as like, all right, well, you can't wreck yourself because you're using a week of PTO to be here, and you don't have any more PTO to use.
You can't just take off Monday. So yeah, and then, you know, I, I think my crew [00:12:00] situation is really, really dialed. I think I saved a lot of time on my crew transitions, which is what I was hoping for. I, I figured I could save at least an hour and a half just on crew transitions alone. But yeah, I was making spreadsheets and you know, 61:30.
I was at 61:30, and I was like, "I don't know how to get below 60." So, like- ... and I, I-- in my crew email, when I sent out that spreadsheet, I was like, "Yeah, you know, I know I said the goal is sub-60, but I legitimately don't know how we're going to get there." So, it's just gonna have to be, like, race day magic, um, that gets us there because, you know, it's-- when you're going through and you're putting in all these paces for these sections, and I'm, I'm slashing those paces in half basically, and I'm slashing my aid station time in half, it's "Oh my God, like how-- I don't wanna do more than this because I feel like that's gonna set me up to fail."
Um- Mm-hmm ... so yeah, it's, it's really, it's really funny the way it all turned out because, I mean, I told Kilian Korth "Logically, what you [00:13:00] did does not make sense. It does not make sense that you just PR'd this course by 25 hours." Like, how did you-- how-- nobody could have guessed that. But kind of in the same way, like logically it does not make sense how I was able to get 56 hours on this course because by all my calculations, I didn't know where I was going to find that time.
Mm-hmm. And as it turns out, it did just happen through race day magic, so. Yeah. Y- you know, you know what I find interesting? I was thinking about this too, where you do have some unique variables lining up this year that we kinda talked about with respect to, you're-- now you're a professional athlete, so you've removed the, you know, whatever stressors would be in place that would maybe interfere with that around work life.
And, you know, you've-- with maybe, maybe with that time were able to optimize your diet to some degree just 'cause you have more opportunities to play around with that stuff- Yeah ... or think about that stuff. The other thing I was thinking, too, is just th- I think there's this balance between the physical demands that you need to train- But then [00:14:00] also the, the mental demands you have to be ready for on race day.
And I think physically we tap out with, with respect to what our body can tolerate in training before we maximize how much kind of mental stimulus we can really build up to be durable over the stretch of these. And part of me wonders when you have someone who has a job, they sorta have a little bit of low impact mental stimulation built into their day that maybe keeps it a bit sharper.
Someone who's purely professional and maybe just drones about the day outside of their training doesn't really tap their mental potential as much. Yeah. So is there a middle in there that kind of get... 'Cause I think a full-time job is probably too much of that. I think it's probably something where it's just over-training, where it's like, "Yeah, I could always run more," but eventually it doesn't help you any longer.
I wonder if the mental side is like that, too, where full-time job plus trying to race these ultras is too much too consistently, but pulsing some of that in is probably valuable at times. I'd be just curious- Yeah ... what your thoughts are around any of that. I don't know. I mean, I do, I can't imagine, [00:15:00] 'cause I am, I am full-time running, but that doesn't mean that I'm not doing anything ever.
I- Right ... I've worked at Devon Yanko's Bakery a couple times, and I've, you know, obviously I'm doing podcasts, and I, you know, a couple months ago I went and guest lectured at PT schools. And so, you know, I am, I am trying to keep my mind sharp, and I write. Um, so I, I do agree. I think, I was, I was chatting with Abby Hall last year, um, and she's full-time pro, obviously, also, and she says that she really likes it.
She really likes kinda the slow pace of life that can really revolve around training. But I don't think that that... Obviously, I'm really grateful that I have-- I get to choose what to do with my time. I don't have just 50 hours that I have to dedicate to being in an office, and those are really that's a hard 50 hours.
I'm not- Mm-hmm ... getting less, because I have to do this job and I have to be present for my patients. But I don't know. I, I do think that doing something, I probably, probably do [00:16:00] something between 15 and 20 hours a week, um, that is not necessarily-- It can be a running related kind of, but lecturing at my PT school or, or writing an article for Ultra Running Magazine.
Those are, those are in the same world of athletics, but are not actually running, that helps me kinda remember that I'm more than just an athlete. I'm actually a person that has interests and can talk about those things, and, you know. Yeah, so I, I think you're probably right. Um, I, I do think a full-time job is too much, but, um, I can't imagine just only doing this.
'Cause even if I'm training six hours a day, okay, now what? Do I just- Right. Yeah ... go home and watch TV? I don't think so. I don't think that's the kind of thing that I would be very-- that would speak to me as a life-affirming choice. Yeah. I assumed you had found that balance, and that was at least partly why you've been successful so far this year and didn't have any, any negative as- assumptions with that.
I also wonder, too, because given your prior setup, I know you were [00:17:00] mentioning before this race you had put up a post on Instagram about how your, your sprinter van- Oh, God ... that you ordered got canceled, and they gave you this full-size RV, which is like- A lease ... great Yeah. Take that- Yeah. Yeah And y- I imagine that that scenario happening when you're trying to s- sandwich this in between a, a full-time job- Yeah
versus now maybe you have a little bit of extra mental bandwidth to say, "Okay, this is a problem, but we can solve it," versus, "Hey, I've gotta get to work today. Who's gonna figure this out for me?" And then it ends up just becoming a huge problem that didn't need to be. Yeah. Yeah, it-- Yeah, that was a funny situation, but you're right.
I mean, you're absolutely right. I, I just-- I have more available bandwidth, um, and I think that that does-- That has obviously done me wonders. Even, even just with regards to traveling I was able to leisurely make my way down there, as opposed to "Okay, well, I'm working until Friday, so I have to leave Friday night," and then whatever.
It's, it's-- Yeah, it's not lost on me what a performance enhancer simply being able to do this full [00:18:00] time is. The o- the other, uh, interesting thing, and I'm-- Actually, Kilian's coming on the podcast on Friday. Nice. So I wanna ask him this question, too- Yeah ... 'cause I think you two maybe differ a little bit here.
I'm sure we do. Yeah. With-- By the way, s- just a sidebar, I think the, the, the Rachel, Kilian bestie arc is just such a great storyline. Yeah. And I think it would be hilarious if you two manufacture an argument going into a race in the future- Yeah ... that gets everyone's attention, and then you just make up and become best friends again afterwards, and- Maybe, yeah
just give us a bunch of unnecessary but fun content. Well, yeah, deal. It's like Mike Versteeg and Jeff Garmire getting into it. Right. Yeah, yeah. Inject a little drama into ultra-running between you two. Yeah, exactly Maybe that would be the... Yeah. No, Kilian, Kilian's the best, Kilian's the best. I can't even imagine getting into an argument with Kilian, to be honest with you-
'cause I, I just love that guy, and I-- Especially after the pure mental resilience that guy demonstrated. Yeah. Nothing but respect. I had nothing but respect- Mm ... for him before, but now I just am like, "Okay, well, I believe. Help my [00:19:00] unbelief, Kilian." Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I'll, I'll get back to the question I was gonna ask you, but you just made me think of something else that I'm gonna ask Kilian that I actually do wanna hear your thoughts on, 'cause I think- Yeah
you have really good perspective in this, is the durability variable that we've talked about with respect to multi-days, that is maybe something we should pay closer attention to. I think we oftentimes look at speed as this big variable that-- I think we give it almost too much credit at times. It's important, but it's, it's-- It has a certain amount of weight, and I think oftentimes we give it more than it deserves, and then that comes at the expense of how important some of these other things are.
And one thing I was-- I'm gonna ask Kilian about is when he got that injury to his hip, glute, he had somewhere in the neighborhood of 70 miles to go. And I was thinking, okay, there's the durability component of him staying pretty much healthy the entire time the way you did, but there's also the component of he's got this injury.
Can he... I- is his body durable enough to absorb that injury and still move relatively fast even if it's not optimal? And I [00:20:00] think he might have showed us that, that, like- Seems like it, yeah. Certainly. Yeah. A less durable Kilian can't absorb that, and therefore he either drops out or slows down significantly and starts walking and ends up eighth place or something like that.
Yeah. He certainly didn't slow down, let me tell you that. Yeah. I, 'cause my- it's funny, my crew-- So we both had a little bit of a pinnacle at Munds Park, which I don't-- I think it's mile 190 or 80 or something. Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause I was really, really cold. I wasn't, I wasn't in a bad way, I just, I obviously had some things I needed to take care of at that aid station.
I was getting some blister issues that I needed to address, 'cause I'd been putting it off for several aid stations. Um, and so I wound up in, in-- I needed to change clothes, 'cause I was getting cold. It was going into the night, too. And you can just get really messed up on night two if you're not careful and you don't address things that need to get addressed.
And so I had chalked up, like, all right, well, this is just gonna be a long aid station, and however long it takes is how long it takes. But keeping in mind, like, all right, but I need to be efficient. There [00:21:00] should be no wasted time. However this is gonna take, all necessary time I have to be willing to give.
And so I go into that aid station. I leave, and Kilian, I guess, came in really quickly, if not when I was leaving. I don't- Mm-hmm ... quite know the timetable. On the live stream it looked that way. Yeah, but apparently- Mm-hmm ... there was some drama where they were like, "Oh, she left in the-- secretly." And I didn't do that.
I was just following-- They told me to go out the back, and so that's what I did. There was no secret moves trying to be made here. But, um, yeah. And so, but I-- and my crew texted Dom, who was pacing me, Dominic Grossman, and was like, "Oh, he's limping." "Don't worry." 'Cause we were about to encounter just tons of mud.
Mm-hmm. And they were like, "Don't worry. Don't get hurt trying to go fast over the mud. He's gonna take some time." And I don't think he took that much time, to be honest. I think he probably just matched my aid station time, whereas my crew thought he would take hours off. So yeah, I don't know.
I mean, when it, when it comes to speed versus durability, like which one of those factors is more important, I [00:22:00] think, I think durability is bar none, um, with regard to, like, how well you're going-- Like, if you're-- 'Cause I would say probably, probably my top end speed might be better than Kilian's. Maybe.
I don't know. We've never done a flat-out mile, and I honestly don't want to. But, um- But, you know, I think I've been doing speed work and I know Kilian has, too, but I think- Mm-hmm ... I think that guy's ability to just run a 10 flat forever is-- it's all you need. I d- I, you know, I don't think that there's- And I mean, I don't know, maybe, maybe I'm wrong on this one, but I know before this year's race, there was a lot of focus on top end speed being really important with multi-days because then you can get a kick at the end or whatever.
I don't know what the argument was. But, um, but I mean, yeah, I wouldn't... I, I would say that Kilian and I are two very different runners that achieved almost the same impossible result. Mm-hmm. And I, and I would say that he, he [00:23:00] might, he might not be as quick, but damn, he is going to run the same pace forever, and he is going to manage whatever issues timely, and, like, all of that turns into a re- a, a result like what he got.
Mm-hmm. I know he-- I think he spent the longest time ever at aid stations. So there actually were points, my stoppage time I think was four and a half hours, and his I think was closer to seven. So his stoppage time was almost double what mine was. I mean, that mu- he was running faster than I was. I guess that's how that math works.
Um- Yeah ... so, so yeah, I mean, and yeah. So I don't know. I think, I think we've just maybe turned the whole multi-day thing back on its head with well, what makes a good multi-day runner? I think, I think durability, I think being able to manage stress in real time and not let things overwhelm you, um, and I think attitude.
Those are, those are [00:24:00] more important than speed. I think, I think speed is maybe in the top five, but I don't think it's top three. I don't think it's close. Yeah. It is super interesting, and I think we can probably tease some of that out. I, it's, uh... If you think of it this way, if you look at just Olympic distance stuff, if somebody is optimizing for the 5K and then they decide to do the marathon instead, they are going to lose a little bit of that top end speed in order to optimize to be f- better at the marathon.
It's just a trade-off that they need to make if they wanna be, like, very narrowly focused on that one event versus the other. Or if it's the reverse, a marathoner goes through some marathon training, they decide to go back and they wanna optimize for the 5K, they're gonna be working on faster stuff to try to get some of that back.
And I think it would be silly for us to assume that that does not trend the same way up into 100K, 100 mile, and then- Mm-hmm ... 200 plus miles. Yeah. So in short, we just were lowering the bar of what the top [00:25:00] end speed needs to be in order to get in the conversation. And once you're over that bar, how much higher you go above it, if it starts coming at the expense of things like durability- Yeah
sleep efficiency, nutrition protocols, and all these other things that you mentioned, then you're probably making a poor opportunity or a poor exchange at that point. I understand. And yeah, so The question is you know, where is that bar and where does it go over time, and things like that. And is, y- there's all sorts of interesting stuff within it.
But w- I can assure you it's much lower than what we would see from you know, anyone who's producing a Division 1 track and field times and things like that. So- Yeah. And I think, I mean, I think, too, you can look at Korthney and I as an example of, like, where is speed important? Because, I mean, she whooped my butt at Chianti, and she has been on record saying that she thinks that her marathon training helped her, which I, I do not- Mm-hmm
doubt. I was not doing marathon training. And for a race that's that relatively short, I think it probably does help that she was able to throw [00:26:00] in that kick at mile 70, you know? But, but, yeah, I mean, I, I don't know how much that training helped her during Cocodona. I mean, you could ask her. But, yeah, I don't know.
It's, it's, it's just interesting. It's, it's really, I think it's fun to see kinda what, what things people are gonna pull out of these performances. Yeah. A- and I love the, I love that it differs. I want nothing more for there to be very clear differences between a 250-mile race and a 100-mile race to the degree that if you wanna be a really competitive 100-miler, you just simply aren't gonna beat the top 250-milers, and vice versa.
Because I think that's just fun and it adds it just adds a more character to this sport versus it being just one big blob of ultra-running. Yeah. And, yeah, so I think I think we got a step closer to recognizing that with, with Cocodona, thanks to you, Kilian, and others. But- Yeah ... one other thing you mentioned I think is really, really interesting, it kinda works alongside the [00:27:00] topic of durability and speed and all that stuff, is I think there's, like, when I look at you and Kilian and your personalities and what maybe makes you feel comfortable with your preparedness is Kilian's maybe more of what I would call a spreadsheet runner.
Mm-hmm. Where he kinda likes the, the, all the little inputs that go around things and organizing it, and he gets a little bit of comfort knowing that he's kind of organized on that stuff. He's phenomenal at knowing that that's not the end-all be-all, and the fact that he's able to control that side of his nature is really impressive.
I see that, I see you as maybe a little bit more of a vibes runner. And- Yep ... I think that's really interesting because we look at what, what measurements we can do for races like this, and I think sometimes we're using a very precise measure, a very precise instrument to try to do something that a very blunt tool would be mu- much better for.
So it's we can take this really precise measurement and be like, "Oh, what's your, your velocity at VO2 max," or "Is your lactate threshold here or [00:28:00] there?" But at the end of the day if you're stressing over that- And you're 175 miles trudging through mud on your second night at the Cocodona 250, does that really matter?
Yeah. You're not gonna be doing the pace on your spreadsheet- ... if there's four inches of mud stuck to your feet. Right, right. Yeah. Right. So then I think having that more vibes-based approach is the blunt instrument that's gonna be more effective in some cases, because it's gonna allow you to navigate those en- environments with the idea that you need to make adjustments when they're there.
Yeah. 'Cause it's not like you're going out totally unaware. You're still making calculations and measurements. You're just using more broad, broad measurement tools. And I think that's just maybe a little bit more of a, a better option based on what we actually know, because, you know, what we know, we know, and what we don't, we don't.
And the only thing we know about what we don't is that it's a lot of it. So- Yeah, I think- Yeah, that was kind of a perception. I think for me, I mean, I made a spreadsheet this year, and I think it was a huge waste of time because by Crown King- ... I was already off of it. Um, but, you know, I think, I think for [00:29:00] me, a spreadsheet, if I chose to let a spreadsheet dictate my pace, I think it would- it obviously would've held me back.
Because again, on my spreadsheet, I had 61:32. Right. So, I'm glad I didn't. I think I made the spreadsheet more for the crew, which my bad, because again, we didn't, we weren't even close any of the time. But, but yeah, I don't know. I- I'm trying to figure out who is a spreadsheet useful for, because I don't know...
Me, I don't, I don't... this might be my last time using a spreadsheet, 'cause it's just, I mean, it took me hours to do, and for what? I didn't, I didn't even use it. All I do during events, like I d- I really didn't even look at my watch that much. I thought I might. Um, and I'm sure maybe if I was, if I was in a head space where I thought I was slowing down or I thought my time goals were slipping away, like maybe I would've utilized the watch a little [00:30:00] bit more.
But during the race this year, like I didn't, I didn't feel that way. I didn't feel the need to look at my metrics at all. So yeah, I don't know. I, I think maybe I'm done with spreadsheets. Yeah, I just don't, I just don't think it helps me. All I can do is the best I can at any given moment, and I think I'm not going to know what that pace is until I'm there.
Mm-hmm. Because I mean, it's kind of like you were saying with the mud. I can tell myself that, you know, oh, well, between Kelly Canyon and Walnut it's flat, so I should be able to do a 12-minute pace really easily. Well, if there's four inches of mud, I'm not gonna be able to do that. And if I, if I'm accounting for that on my spreadsheet, I'm gonna stress myself out, and that's not necessary.
You don't need to add any additional stress to something that's already 250 miles of low-intensity stress the whole time. Um, and so yeah, if you feel like you're falling behind your mark because of something that you can't- [00:31:00] effect- Mm-hmm ... like you can't change, um, I don't know, that seems, it seems like more of a negative than a positive.
So I mean, I don't know. Yeah, unnecessary stress. Unnecessary stress. Unnecessary stress. And like it's not, you can't, you can't... If you go, if you try to go faster, you might get injured, and you might make a mistake that costs you your race. Um, 'cause, you know, you could be trying to move too quickly, and oh, now you've strained your hip flexor, 'cause you're not, you're not taking your time on this section in the way that you should.
Um- Mm-hmm ... so yeah, I don't know. I think you just have to kinda greet each section with the mentality that you're j- you're only able to do the best you can, and that has to be good enough. Yeah. And I think one thing you do that I find exceptional that allows you to operate that way is, 'cause some people are listening to this and they think, "Well, what do I tell my crew to do?
How am I gonna inform them?" If they're just standing there with their hands in their pockets and we're just trying to figure things out on the fly, we're wasting time. But you said something that I was like, okay, well this is how you prepare for that. You use a [00:32:00] lot of communication, and your crew is gonna know ahead of time what some potential things could be happening that they need to get ready for so they're not sitting there with their hands in their pockets when they get to the next aid station.
Yep. And you also talked about kinda your 20-minute rule, where if something just bothers you initially, you're like, "Okay, this could just pass. Let's give it 20 minutes. If it doesn't go away, then I need to start addressing it." W- And I think being aware of those things allows you to operate without a spreadsheet in an effective way that doesn't cost you time.
Yeah. And you're right, I mean, there was a lot of... Fortunately, with Cocodona, A, there's incredible tracking. So, my crew knows- Yeah ... when I'm going to arrive places. Um, and then B, is, uh, you know, I had Jake Bale on my crew again. This is now his fourth time crewing me for a 200-miler. He knows what I need.
Um, and I mean, before the race we talked about "All right, well, here are the things that I'm gonna have at every single aid station at my disposal whenever I need them." And so I can take that and be like, all right, well, knowing that [00:33:00] I have a warm shirt readily available I'm going to ch- I'm going to waste no time in requesting that item, because they're already going to bring it.
Um, and you know, there is, there is cell service, and I, I did utilize pacers. And so, you know, my pacer and I would have a conversation about "All right, well, the aid station's in five miles. What do I want to accomplish there?" Mm-hmm. And now I have an hour to figure out okay, well, do I wanna change clothes?
Probably not. Yes, I do. Do I wanna brush my teeth? Do I want to... You know, I need to make sure I have headlamps, like, all that kinda stuff. So yeah, I don't know. I do, I do think communicating with your crew about what you are likely to need before the race, and then if you're in a position where during the race you can communicate with them too that's, it's, it just, it saves time, and I think does allow everybody to kinda- Not feel like they're sitting around with their hands in their pockets.
Nope- Right. Yeah ... there's always something to do. It's- Yeah. Jake, um, was saying that, [00:34:00] and I, I don't know, I'm gonna paraphrase 'cause I don't ex- exactly remember what he said, but, um, he was warning the crew "All right. You, you think you're gonna have all this time because it's over three days, but you are not going to have time.
So just- ... go ahead and if, if you manage to stumble upon an hour where you can get some sleep, you take it." Because- Mm-hmm ... because that time is not guaranteed. These-- I'm fascinated by the crewing side of things with, with regard to this race because, I mean, I'm sure it's from the front end of the race to the back end, I'm sure it's a completely different experience.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting stuff, and it, it, it, it's one of those things where I, I tell my coaching clients this, too. It's like even if you're not using a crew and you're working off the aid stations, what you said is kind of a perfect representation of it is, like, when you get a certain distance from the next aid station, you should be thinking about what you need, so when you get in there, you can act versus think.
And yeah, I mean, having h- knowing what's at aid stations, [00:35:00] knowing, having your crew know what you're typically gonna want, and then they can be ready with it, and then it's just a matter of, like, how much you engage with any one thing that they have out there is gonna be pretty easy in the moment to do quickly.
So I really like that strategy. Um, yeah. I, I, I know you mentioned on another podcast, uh, I think it was maybe Single Track, uh, where you, uh, you wo- you've done, I mean, you've won Cocodona three times now. Yeah. So it's like what, what do, what do you do now with that sort of a scenario? Yeah. And you said that you were, you, at, at this point in time, you were kind of interested in maybe stepping away from it as an athlete and going in and experiencing it more on the spectator, crew side of things.
I love that idea for you for a variety of reasons, one of which is just I think you'll probably learn some things just watching everybody else- I'm sure I will ... in comparison to what you did. Yeah, I'm sure I will. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, as you were. [00:36:00] Sorry, I interrupted you. Yes. No, no, that's all, that's all good.
I didn't really have much more beyond that other than just, uh, your thoughts on that, if there was something you were gonna go into Cocodona next year potentially as a spectator crew to try to learn or maybe just to say, "Okay, this is just gonna be a fun way to see from the other side." Yeah, I, you know, I have one more time before I get my thousand mile buckle.
Um, and especially now that the race is so popular I just, I don't feel like it's necessary for the same people to show up ev- or I don't know. For me, it does not feel necessary to be at that race every time as a participant within the race. I do think it would be really nice to give back, especially to those who have helped me find success at this race.
I know Jake Vail had signed up last year, and then obviously this year- Kind of became what it was with the film about the women's race, and such a competitive women's field. It's, it's funny because I guess I almost predicted this last year, 'cause I, I was approached by the race management saying "Hey, we really want you in."
Mm-hmm. "So, [00:37:00] what do we have to do?" And I was like, "Well, there's nothing you can do because Jake is running it, and I promised him that I would help." And he and I, last May, had a really intense conversation about, And I, I told him, I, I said, "I think I have a chance here to help propel forward women's sports.
And I understand if you, like... A promise is a promise, and I'm not going to be mad if you decide you want to run and that means that I can't. That is, that is fine." But I just, I don't know, there was something even last year where it was like, "Hey, man, if we have a competitive women's field who knows what can happen?"
And obviously Jake very selflessly degir- agreed to step down and see, you know, try to get in the race another year. And so, I mean, really all of this that happened is Jake Bale's fault, um, because- ... I wasn't even supposed to be running. I had agreed to help already his race because he's, he's given so much of his time and energy to me to help [00:38:00] me be successful here.
And so, I don't know, I just, I think for me it's, I can't keep asking from other people to help me be s- Like, I've already... What do I need to do here? I've already got- Mm-hmm ... I've already made a point at this race. I don't need to keep beating a dead horse. I would so much rather try to return that favor to other people.
And whether it's, you know, helping Jake race or, I know my crew chief, Janina Simmons, um, put in half of my freaking friends have put into this lottery. Like- ... there will be somebody I am able to help next year, and I would, I think that would be much more meaningful than going for a four-peat.
Who cares? Not- Yeah ... me, though. Not me. I don't need, I don't need to do that. I've already, I've already done way more than I thought was possible with this race. I don't need to keep demanding even more from it and other people. This is not the Rachel show. This is Cocodona, and I want other people to have that [00:39:00] experience, too.
Yeah. No, that all makes sense, and I think sometimes even if you think of it through the lens of how excited, how excited it is to do an event like that or exciting it is to do an event like that, if you take a year off and spectate watch, I mean, you're going to have some degree of FOMO obviously.
You're just so- Oh, I'm screwed ... invested in that event. And then who knows what sort of motivation that gives you if you decide to say, "All right. Well, I'm gonna go back to Cocodona down the road, let it rip again, and, uh, and see," and, and maybe that propels you to have a day beyond what you did this year, and- I mean-
you kind of rewrite their story again. But you could also do it on crewed- That's what I'm thinking. That's what I'm thinking. Yeah, I think it'd be fun. I think it'd be-- I don't know what level of, or what decreasing levels of support I'm gonna try to go for. But again, I mean, the reason for crew at this race, in my opinion, is, and pacers, is this year in particular it was like, "All right.
Well, I'm gonna pick people who, A, are gonna help me succeed, and in return I wanna use the platform that I'm suspecting I might get," which check- Yeah ... to help [00:40:00] elevate, to help elevate their stories, um, and give them the experience. I know Robin Lesh is really curious about what it takes to do this race.
Great. You're on my crew. You're gonna pace me. Now you're gonna see. Better than anybody's going to tell you, you're gonna be able to see and experience what this race is like. Um, and I know Addy Bracey is really curious about, like, how do you manage sleep deprivation? Well, I'll show you. Here's- Mm-hmm
Cocodona. You're not gonna sleep for three days, and you still have to function. And, and Janina Simmons, I mean, she's one of the most insane people I've ever met. She's, you know, female Army Ranger, stage four cancer. She's, she's got... I mean, we all have a limited amount of time, but her more so than anyone has a limited amount of time.
You wanna live life? Here's Cocodona. Come- Mm-hmm ... do this with me, because I need you and you need this. Um, so yeah, I don't know. I, I, I just, I think that this race has such a capacity to change [00:41:00] people's lives at a fundamental level. Um, so yeah, I don't know. I, I, I am willing to take, I'm happy to take the break from this race in order to help other people get to experience what I've, I've had.
Yeah. Sorry for that long tangent, but - Well, it was, it was actually one of the better arguments you could make, I think, about crewing and pacing in ultrarunning, is it is one of those things where you expose people to the sport that would maybe otherwise either not get an opportunity to be part of something like that, and, or, or maybe do one themselves, because I know I've had… I've crewed at races before, and I've been crewed at races before where the outcome was, like, "All right, I wanna do this race," or the person that crewed is "I wanna try an ultra now."
And I think there is- Yeah ... that sort of actually being there element to, to sharing, sharing and also just inviting people into the sport, and making it look a little bit more approachable to them- Yeah ... 'cause they can actually see someone do it. Yeah. And I mean, I'm, I'm happy that it sounds like everybody on my [00:42:00] crew, you know, obviously it's really hard work.
But I'm, I'm happy that everybody on my crew, once again, had a really good time. Yeah, right. No one's mad at you. Yeah. No one's, I don't think anyone's mad. Um, hopefully no one's mad. But yeah, I mean, like every year I've kind of been known as having just this hilarious crew situation. Um- Mm-hmm
and I mean, this year we had the matching fits that were super sick. Yeah. Um, so it was just like, I don't know, it's just, it's just fun. Cocodona almost has this Hunger Games-type quality to it, where the more we- it's, it is a show. Mm-hmm. You can choose to just race the thing, or you can choose to use some of that to your advantage.
And I think in my opinion, it makes it really fun to, like- Mm-hmm ... do all the behind the scenes stuff of well, here's the RV that I'm going to be driving. I'm gonna equip it with a disco ball and mushroom lights, 'cause that'll be funny. You know, you can, you can do this really serious, hard thing and, and choose to do it with levity, I guess, like this air of devil may care.
And I [00:43:00] think it just makes it, it just makes it that much more appealing to people when you manage to s- have that attitude and stick it. It doesn't, running doesn't have to be this serious thing. It, it- Mm-hmm … at its core, we all run because we think it's fun. And I think sometimes, especially in big race situations, we can lose sight of that, and I just think that's a shame.
And so for me, it's always Cocodona is this great opportunity to just, like, all right, we're about to do something ridiculous. We're about to be in the desert running 250 miles for three days. This is ridiculous what we're doing, so let's, let's treat it with the appropriate amount of aplomb. Let's just-
let's just lean into how ridiculous it is. Let's get matching alien outfits and a stupid RV with a disco ball, and like- ... let's just make it into a party. So yeah, I don't know. Keep it positive, for sure. Yeah. Right. It's, it's certainly not gonna har- hurt me, and it's not gonna take me any more energy. I can spend energy worrying about crap I can't control, or I can spend [00:44:00] energy laughing at how everything is insane.
Yeah. And I would prefer to do the second, personally. Yeah, that's maybe a glimpse into the psychology of what success looks like at these things. I think it, I think it really helps. I think it really helps to just laugh about it. There's nothing you can do. God and life is going to give you bullshit at Cocodona, and there's nothing you can do about it other than laugh, in my opinion.
I, I would've never thought that, or I shouldn't say never, I wouldn't have imagined that I'd be thinking about this at this point in time, but I now think Cocodona might be big enough to accommodate something like this. I do think too much categorization in something that's not big enough for it yet kind of just maybe sort of waters things down, but I think you could do a crewed versus uncrewed, or a crew pacer versus just no support.
Yeah. So, Andy Glaze style versus- What we see most people doing It's like the Ball State. Ball State Exactly, yeah, exactly Although I guess everything now is uncrewed. I didn't know that, but I guess maybe [00:45:00] old school Ball State where there was crewing Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you could, I, I mean, it might be big enough now where you could have a, the, the storylines would be powerful enough independent of one another that you could have them working side by side where you have you know, the leader of the, the leaders of the crewed, paced group and then the uncrewed, unpaced, and then you get this weird year maybe where some, some person just goes and has a great day with no crewed pacer- Well-
and carves well into the top That would be nuts. Wow. Well, I was- I think they just add to the storylines. Well, I was talking to, um, 'cause I don't remember who I mentioned, I mentioned that idea, too, of well, if I do it for year four you know, again, the reason I have crew and pacers is to help me and, or, and/or elevate their stories, and so, you know, I've done, I've done that.
I don't, I don't think at this point I should be an expert at this race. I've done it three times, and I've won, so, clearly I, I must know a thing or two. Um, and so yeah, un- uncrewed/unsupported, whatever, seems to make the most sense, and I was, I was... I talked about that somewhere, and [00:46:00] Jeff Browning reached out and was like, "Yo."
Yeah, that sounds like Jeff. "I want in. I want in." And he was talking about oh, you know, maybe we could make a m- a film about this. Mm-hmm. And I was like, "That is a great idea," because I do think it would make it so much more fun if there was somebody else at a high- higher level of ability doing this with me.
That would be so fun if just a bunch of elite runners were like, "Nope, we're just gonna make it way harder on ourselves and see what happens." Mm-hmm. I don't know. I think, I think that would be super fun, so I'm, I'm hopeful that that maybe can happen within the next three years or so.
'Cause yeah, I mean, I do, I do need a break from this race. I would like to help other people. I'd like to pursue other things that happen at the beginning of the summer. But when I come back I think having some sort of zany project mindset around I don't know. It'll, it'll also help to I've, I've been really pleased with how much I don't care actually about winning, but I think it would help decrease some of that external pressure of well, I mean, I'm going without a crew or pacers.
I'm not really-- Obviously I'm not expecting to win here. [00:47:00] I just wanna see what is gonna happen out there when it is just this. I don't know. I just, I think that could be really fun, and it, it kinda turns the narrative a little bit into maybe don't expect me to win. Just expect me to have a hell of a story to tell afterwards.
Right. Yeah. I think it brings a little bit of kinda old school ultra into it, too- Yeah ... where you get that nostalgia of what it was like before we had, like, all the topical cooling strategies- Yeah ... and optimal fueling strategies because you just have to make some compromises there. And I mean, I think there's an appetite for it.
It just depends on, like you said, can you get enough people to really get that there? And then, I mean, Aravaipa's- AirVibe is so ahead of everything, I would imagine they would have a structure where they'd be like, "Okay, we're gonna make sure that we tell this story along the way- Yeah ... so the viewers and followers are aware it's going on."
Yeah. And that might be enough. That might be enough- Yeah ... just to have that category in and of itself. Yeah, and I mean, you know, I don't, I don't even know if I need it to be, like, a category that I can win or whatever. But I just think it would be funny for, That's aside, I mean, 'cause a lot of runners, a [00:48:00] lot of runners don't have crew or pacers.
It is wild. Right. Mm-hmm. It is wild. I don't know how they do it. I'll have to talk to Annie Glaze. But- Actually, Manny Vieseca, she wound up having a lot of, I think, respiratory issues and had to drop. But she didn't have… She's an elite-level runner, and she didn't have any support out there.
And so, um, I don't know. I just, I think that's a, that's a storyline that has, has some potential to be explored- Mm-hmm ... a little bit further. And I, I think it'd be fun "Ha, I've had a ton of success here. Let's see, let's just see what happens." Um, and I, and I think for my fourth rodeo at this race that, you know, for that Thousand Mile Buckle, I wanna do something that is, is really gonna have me dig deep to earn it.
I don't want- Mm-hmm ... I don't want it to just be given to me. I wanna… And that's one thing that I'm so grateful to Kilian for is that he did not give me anything over the course of this race. I had to earn that victory. And yeah, by, by the same token I, I think it would be really fun to have to [00:49:00] really earn that Thousand Mile Buckle.
Yeah. Do, do you think if Kilian had maintained that uh, 'cause it seemed like for a quite a chunk of that race he was, like, maybe- Two miles away ... 20 minutes behind you. Yeah, freaking teamwork. And, yeah, and then you kind of pulled a little bit. It sounds like you maintained that I'm being chased pressure that is required to run really fast in a lot of cases.
But do you think if he had been just that far back, or maybe even closing that gap, you would've been pushing a little harder yet? It's hard to say. I mean, it's really hard to say. But I think the only reason… 'Cause I think I finished the race seven and a half miles ahead of him. Mm-hmm. And I think the only reason why it wasn't two miles ahead is because I believe he took an hour off the course to sleep.
Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I, I don't know. I had, I had a lot of external reasons as to wh- or I guess internal reasons as to why I wanted to run the entire last climb. I don't think I could've run it any faster, but m- I mean, who knows? Who knows? When you have that competitive pressure that's [00:50:00] being applied to you, like you can whip out all sorts of stuff.
So I mean, I don't know. In the moment, it's hard to say that I could have done any better than I did- Mm-hmm … because I didn't have to. I wasn't forced to do any better than I did, and I felt like what I was doing was obviously appropriate. I was able to hold off Kilian, and then when he had to take time off I didn't, and I was able to make that gap into something that was bigger, um, and more comfortable.
But I, I certainly don't think that I slacked off as a result. In, in something like Cocodona, there is no- Especially if you're competing at the top, there is no room for... it is risk versus reward the entire time you're out there. Um, and, and the risk of deciding to dilly-dally is that Kilian takes what I've done from-
and I can't let, you know, you just can't let that happen. You've been in the league for two da- you, come on. Yeah, it's a long time. You better run. You better keep going. That's kind of what I kept telling myself is "If you give him an inch, he will take a mile," because that's the kind of competitor he is, and that's the [00:51:00] kind of respect that he has for competition.
He, nothing is going to be given to you. It has to be earned. Um, so, so yeah, I don't know. It's, it's hard to say I could have done any faster or better or whatever, but maybe. Glad I didn't have to find out, though, 'cause boy, that would've been tough. That would've been really tough. Some- To go down that mountain any faster oof, that would've been tough.
Yeah, some things are better left unexplored. Yeah, for sure. I, I did have a question, 'cause you mentioned Kilian's sleep break, and this is another thing that your performance has maybe shifted my opinion on, at least to some degree, but I, I'll ask you the question anyway just to see what you think. Do you think planned sleeping and emergency naps are now a plan B, meaning you have conceded what is optimal for you if you find yourself in those positions?
I think you do not need to plan sleep. I think if you're tired enough, you will do it. Um- Okay ... 'cause I, I mean, every, I think every single year I've not planned sleeping. Um, and I don't, I mean, I think it's, I think it really is what works best for you. But, [00:52:00] um, what works best for me by far is waiting until...
I mean, I was falling asleep while running. I did not know that was something I could do. But I would like, I mean, I would like my eyes would be closed, and I would run into Dom while he was pacing me, or I would run into Robin while she was and just be like, "Hold..." I was asleep. I need to take, you know, you kind of, you're kind of jolted awake a little bit and you're like, "Holy crap," "Wow."
And then you get a little bit of that adrenaline ru- rush of "Okay that was wild. I need to stay awake." And then if that ha- if that keeps happening, it's "All right, it's time, it's time for a nap." But I don't know. I mean, I don't... For me, I just don't think it's, I don't think it's necessary to plan wh- 'cause I don't know how...
It's, it's just like pacing. I don't know how I'm gonna feel when I'm out there. So, I might as well just, I think in my, in my planning, I allotted an hour or 90 minutes or something to well, if I need to sleep, here's the, here's the time I can give myself without just wrecking my plan, [00:53:00] um, or my strategy.
'Cause I, I would be curious how Korthney shifted her race plan, because I know that she had a lot of issues with feeling really sleepy, and, like- Mm-hmm ... needed to take a lot of dirt naps as a result. I, I wonder, I wonder how she pivoted once that became apparent it was what she needed. But yeah, I mean, I don't know.
Both this year and last year I waited until- I absolutely had to sleep, and I mean, I wasted no time. I lied down on the ground. I was out within 10 seconds. I was... I barely had enough time to tell Robin "Hey, give me seven minutes," before I was, like, dead ass asleep. Mm-hmm. And then by the time she woke me up seven minutes later, it was like, "All right, I'm ready to go."
So yeah, I do, I do think that, I think it's, I think, you know, 'cause I'm sure Jeff Browning would have a very different answer, because he is- Yeah ... somebody who's able to fall asleep quickly. I am not. Um, I am able to fall asleep most effectively when I actually need to. Um, and, and planning sleep probably, you know, "Oh, I've got to Port Tuttle.
[00:54:00] Now's, it's my 20-minute nap," and I'm not tired. And so I'm just gonna lie there and I'm gonna waste my time. Mm-hmm. So I think, I think for me, I've, I've realized that planning sleep is useless, but I, I do think it's, it's subjective. Do you think there's a path forward where literally no sleep is optimal for performance in something like this?
Is there some strategy of caffeine and carbohydrate or training that could get you to a point where you don't get that sleep pressure at all, or enough to make you want to s- lay down and sleep? I mean, maybe, but I also think there's a very human component to this race that we like to ignore. I mean, we are, you know, obviously we're athletes out there, but we aren't robots.
Like- You need some sort of creature comfort, I think, in this race, and for me, sleep is that thing. Like, all right, for five minutes I don't have to, I can take a break. You can turn it off. I can turn it off. I can turn it off. And so, yeah, I don't know. I think, I [00:55:00] think it would be really challenging to assume that you're not going to sleep.
Um, I, I don't plan sleep, which means that if I get to the finish line without doing it, it's a miracle. But I, but I think, I don't know. I'll be, I'll be fascinated to hear if that winds up happening. Um- Mm-hmm ... 'cause I know Dan didn't sleep very much either that first year, or his last year. I don't remember how much he wound up sleeping, but I think it was, like, 15 minutes also.
That's not much, but it's still not zero. I- Right. Right I don't know if, I don't know if we can do z- zero. I'm not, I don't know. But maybe- My, my current p- my current position on it is it's probably a non-zero number, but it has to be, like, really forced upon you to where it's clear- Yeah ... that you're going to actually fall asleep, otherwise you just end up what you were saying, you're laying down and not doing anything.
Yeah. So, I think my advice for people would, would be just plan on it. Plan on some point during this event you're gonna get [00:56:00] sleep pressure that's great enough where you just know if you lie down, and maybe it is being presented with a scenario like you had where you're, like, almost falling asleep while running.
Yeah, I'm running into trees. And- Yeah ... you'll know it when you see it type of a thing. Yeah, exactly. And then take that nap then, but don't necessarily try to say "All right, I'm gonna sleep on day two at 2:00 p- or 2:00 AM." Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, again, I, I think, I think, I think results may vary. But I, I wonder if my performance is going to impact how Jeff looks at this race.
Because maybe Jeff can now be like, "All right, well, maybe I don't need to, to plan those naps. Maybe I can just wait until I'm tired," you know? Yeah. I know I talked to, I talked to Joe McConaughy too, and he said that he was planning on taking time off before Mingus. And you know, again, I wonder if that is something that now he is questioning whether or not it's necessary.
Mm-hmm. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, from what I know, I mean, there's some cycling research that would [00:57:00] suggest that that's not a bad strategy for performance. Yeah, and I know- But again- Mike Versteeg was, had a really interesting plan that, uh, and I was fascinated to see how this was gonna play out, but he wanted to take four hours- Really?
out at, I don't exactly remember, but he wanted to take a huge chunk of time and just reset. Because his, his thought process is, in cycling, they can usually get right back up to that day one level of intensity after taking a considerable amount of time off to sleep and recover, and he was wondering if that would translate.
And so that was, again, I'm bummed that it didn't work out for him this year, but that is something that like, huh, maybe that could be a strategy. I, I for one was really invested to see how that worked. I di- I knew it wasn't going to be something that I tried, but I would, I would... maybe that is best practice and we just, nobody's tried it yet.
That's on that pointy end and can, and can stick it. I would be very concerned about the impact side of running versus cycling with that- Yeah ... long of a break, personally. Yeah, sure. [00:58:00] I just think hopping on a bike with sore legs, I think you loosen up a little bit differently than when you're trying to Why?
Especially if it's running downhill or anything like that. And he, he even too acknowledged that it was very different, but, you know, I think Cocodona is a race that is great for experimentation. For sure. And I thought that was a really refreshing new take on what do we do about sleep, because that is a really good question of, like- Mm-hmm
what is best practice for how to manage sleep loss? Yeah. And when people as capable as someone like Michael is having that idea and think, "I'm gonna stress test this," I mean, that's just great for us- Yeah, it is ... as learners of this to kind of get at least one anecdote towards, like- Yeah, it is ... what maybe we should consider or not consider and kind of keep layering those, that, that baseline.
'Cause I think we talked about this in the last time you were on here where it's like, though, I think one of the more fascinating things about people like you and like Kilian, Michael Versteeg, Michael McKnight, and, you know, all these people that are [00:59:00] really putting themselves into these multi-day events is that you're learning so much for us.
that when the next generation of ultra runners come in, their starting point could very well feel like you this year, where you had two years of experience, a lot of I- a lot of things that you knew would probably be better than others, and you just aren't making as many mistakes. And their starting point's gonna be there because- Yeah
of all the work that you all did to figure that stuff out for us. So, I love to see that sort of curiosity around the different strategies. Me too. Yeah. I just think it makes it fun. And I mean, too, I'm a huge proponent of sharing all information that can possibly be shared, and I, I think that people doing that and then sharing what they're discovering is is just good for the sport.
Mm-hmm. So I'm, I'm... All that to say, I agree. I'm with you. Yeah. Well, with multi days, would you ever consider a six day? Oh, God. Are you talking about Meg Eckert? Why don't you talk, why don't you just call from Meg? I don't know. [01:00:00] Um, I know a- Meg's been on the podcast I, yeah, I thought. Dude, I want her to come back.
I think, I think she was interested in returning to Cocodona, 'cause I think she could do some damage. Um, but I don't know. I mean, as of right now, I will say that that's probably not a huge priority of mine. If I'm gonna do something that is a multi, multi day event, it's probably gonna be something like the Washington section of the PCT- Oh, cool
type thing. But I don't know. I mean, the fixed time running has a very, very permanent spot in my heart. I think it's, I've, you're able to learn so much. You're able to push through so many mental barriers with those kinds of races. So yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I think, I think it is something that I could probably be good at.
I'm not gonna foolishly say that I could be better than Meg, just because I beat her at Cocodona. But, um- Yeah ... but I don't know. I mean, it's, it's available to, to me when I need it. Sure. And I think it would be really… I'd like to [01:01:00] get back to a fixed time run at some point. Um, 'cause yeah, I, I really do credit all of my success with strategy and mental and sleep, um, to the fixed time running that I did kind of before I got into the Cocodona in 2024.
Um, 'cause- Mm-hmm ... prior to that I was doing a lot of 48-hour running, and I was- Yeah ... learning how to pace and how to plan. Should I plan sleep or not? Well, okay, all these three races are showing me that it doesn't work, so coming into Cocodona I'm not gonna plan anything. Um, and how to fuel and, you know, the 20-minute rule I gathered from fixed time running, so, you know, doing something like a six day what other tools could I possibly gather from doing an event like that?
I don't know. It, it certainly would be worth it to consider Yeah I just haven't- I think it's totally fine to let an event come to you, and if it does or doesn't, who cares, than versus trying to force yourself into one just for some reason that [01:02:00] maybe won't be compelling when you're four and a half days into it and you need it to be.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I think Meg is coming back for the six-day, so I'm eager to cheer her on, especially with all this- Yeah ... the new things that I'm sure Cocona taught her. I'm sure it'll only make her a better competitor. Yeah. Yeah, she's interesting. I think you two have a lot in common, too, with just your kind of approach with training and mindset around things like that.
I, I think that's, uh, kind of, it's just interesting to see the people who are being successful in this sport have some variance. It's not just this one cookie cutter prototype. But I think you and, you and Meg are, have, have a lot of similarities from, from my conversation with her and, and with you.
Yeah, I'd love to... haven't, I was in Santa Fe, but I was there visiting friends already, and I was like, "Ugh." And I think it was during, it was, like, during the week. So then obviously she's still somehow managing to be a full-time teacher. Yeah. But, uh, I would really like to hang out with her more, 'cause I met her at Hard Rock last year, and we just had a really fun conversation "I like you."
Um, I would love to, I [01:03:00] would love to get to, the opportunity to spend more time with her. She seems like a really valuable person to have in your corner. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Rachel, that was an awesome chat. I don't know if there's anything else you want to talk about. We certainly can, but I don't want to take up too much more of your time.
I know you're busy. Oh, yeah. You have no idea. I will let you share where people can find you, although, at this point, it may just be Google me. Just Google me. I'm the top five links. Yeah. Uh, I am on Instagram, just Rachel, two underscores, Entrekin. And then, um, I have a Substack and a WordPress that are both linked in my Instagram.
I think everything important is probably on Instagram at this point, but- Very cool ... but yeah. And then I have a column in Ultra Running Magazine called Thoughts from Mile 90. Find my musings there. So yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Well, I'll link all that stuff to the show notes, too, so if listeners wanna head down there and click on it, that'll be there.
Yeah, or you can just Google me, honestly. I'm- That'll, that'll work, too ... I'm [01:04:00] there. I'm there. I'm the blonde one. I have a Wikipedia page now. Oh, my God. I died. Yeah. Do you have a Wiki- uh, you must. You must. I think so. Yeah, I think I do. Yeah. I was like, "I've made it." My dad sent it to me and was like, "Holy cow."
It's yeah, that's pretty sick. That's awesome. Yeah. I, yeah, pretty cool. It's been a wild couple, it's been a wild week, I guess. No doubt. Yeah, just last week, my life was very different, so pretty crazy to think about. Yeah. Well, it'll be awesome to see what you do coming up here and kinda continue to, to tell your story through your efforts.
It's definitely a unique one and an exciting one, so I appreciate you taking some time to chat. Yeah, not a, not a problem. I always like chatting with you. Awesome. Sweet. Take care, Rachel. All right. Thank you, Zach