Episode 477: Cocodona 250 Ultra Champ | Rachel Entrekin 

Rachel Entrekin is a 2x Cocodona Champion, and course record holder. She joined me for an in-depth interview discussing her transition to professional running, training methods, multi-day race strategy, and the evolution of ultrarunning.

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Timestamps:

Episode Transcript:

[00:00:00] Alright, Rachel, welcome to the show. Hi. Thanks for having me. Yeah, absolutely. First, before we get rolling, I just wanna congratulate you on what was an awesome race season last year, and then some of the new developments with partnerships for you that will, I think, hopefully allow you to maybe explore some even better races coming this year.

Yeah. It's been really cool. 2025 was a pretty awesome year. And I'm really optimistic for 2026. So yeah, it's been a cool little, I've been doing this a long time and it feels like it's finally happening, so, yeah. And when you say a long time, I think in the world of like professional sports, people think, oh, maybe they were grinding away for two or three years and then they got their opportunity, but you've been running trail and ultra races for well over 10 years I think so what was your first Ultra race?

I did. I think it was called the Harbison 50 K. [00:01:00] It's in South Carolina. And that was back in probably 2010 or 11. So yeah, it's been a while. It's been really fun though 'cause I've gotten to see so many things change. From women's participation to super shoes on trails. It's been really fun to be a part of it this whole time because When did you start running?

You've been around a while as well. Yeah. My first one was also actually in 2010. And I it is just such, it is a lot in, you're, like you said, so much has changed. It's like we have our own. The kind of media circuit within ultra running now isn't really all that dependent on the more broader running media any longer.

And then we also have the growth of social media over that phase, that time phrase. It just changes the dynamic of the kind of spectator, fan athlete, participant, influencer. Anything you wanna throw into that bucket? Yeah. Yeah. It's way different today. Yeah. It's been nuts, I think, and I think it's [00:02:00] all good, mm-hmm. Like I'm really glad that we're getting more eyes on the sport. But yeah it's definitely been a wild ride since 2010. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. When you first did an ultra marathon, what was the driver behind that? Was there something that intrigued you about it? Yeah, so I think with most of the events that I do where I'm going to try a different thing, it's because I feel like I've mastered the thing that I just, or not, I guess mastered is all subjective.

But I feel like I've mastered the thing that I. Was doing. 'cause I started with probably a couple half marathons and those, just didn't seem very hard. I wasn't winning them, but that wasn't what I was looking to do. Mm-hmm. I was just looking to complete them and feel like I had done well.

And so did those who jump in marathons. And then pretty quickly within marathons I realized that I'm very good at running a long time and that I don't necessarily get that wrecked afterwards. So when I was running I did a bunch of marathons in 2009, [00:03:00] 2010, and they were mostly road. But I would do probably two of them a month.

And feel fine. Like I was, I would still be able to train or go for runs. I don't even wanna say train 'cause that's giving me way too much credit in 2010. But yeah, I would still be able to go for runs the next day and not feel that wrecked. And so that. I didn't really wanna run marathons any faster than I was running.

But it did make me curious . If I feel fine the next day, could I run this? Could I run something that's longer? And so that's what got me into that 50 km space of, well, it's only six miles longer. Yeah. Which is how they get you. Yeah. And so, yeah, I did a couple 50 Ks and it was so much harder than I thought it was gonna be, but I still afterwards, I was pretty, that six extra miles is like really six extra miles.

And so I would be pretty, I was a lot more tired after I was done, but then the next day I was still like, okay, well I actually don't feel that bad. And so, I [00:04:00] did a couple 50 Ks and I got faster at them and my immediate recovery improved. If so, I was like, well, let's try a 50 miler.

Then that was like, well, let's drive a 12 hour fixed time race. And then it just ballooned from there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All, yeah, all of that stuff took 10 years. Was there a point during that journey where you were thinking, Hey, I wanna try to do this professionally? Or was that something that kind of popped up like more or less, I don't wanna say on accident, 'cause none of your race results are on accident, but like what, when did that maybe start entering your mind?

I don't think I knew professional runners until Courtney became one in 2017. Yeah, I was actually pretty good friends with Joe Fiji back in the day. He ran quite literally in the same circles as me. And so, I knew that he was a, I knew that he was a person, but I actually still don't know if he was getting paid to do any of the stuff that he was doing.

I [00:05:00] think you may have been somebody on my radar too, but like still I don't know if they're outside of Scott Jurich, were there trail runners when I got started. I don't that professional. I don't know. It really was when Courtney did all that stuff with Solomon that I was like, oh, she seems like she, she just quit her job.

Yeah. To do this. Interesting. And in no way in 2017 was I thinking that I could be Courtney, or I could do this professionally. I think that kind of jumped into my radar, I would say in 2024. So after the first time I did Coca Donut and I won, I was like, oh, sick. Like maybe I can do this.

And of course I spent a year like almost nothing happening. And then after Coca Donna this year I was still in that same mindset of Hey, I think I could probably do this. I haven't really lost a race in a while. I seem to do pretty good. People seem to like me. And it doesn't really feel like I have a lot standing in my way of I just need to find the right company and I just need to have [00:06:00] time to actually talk to the right people because unfortunately it is being able to find the right person who can listen to you mm-hmm.

In order to get a contract. And so, I was working in a physical therapy job until June of 2025. And I remember talking to my partner at the time and being like, Hey, like I'm really thinking about actually going for it. And I think that in order to do that, I'm gonna need a full-time job to find a contract.

'Cause you just have to meet people and you have to like. Go to Western states and show your face to everybody and go to Hard Rock and do that. It's like a dog and pony show, but you are the dog and pony. And so I talked to him and he was very supportive of me doing that. And so I didn't pursue another contract.

And I spent the next three months pursuing, getting a professional running contract. And it worked out. So I'm pretty thrilled. Mm-hmm. But yeah it's definitely I did not, I don't know, I think I was under the expectation that if you're good enough at running, then [00:07:00] everybody will flock to you and just offer you a shoe contract.

And it was a lot harder than I thought it was gonna be. Like it was, yeah, it was pretty, yeah. They are frustrating. There are definitely brands that will offer you some shoes and hope you take that. But it's funny. Yeah I think what my. My kind of recollection of the whole situation was I mean I think there were pros around probably earlier than this too, but it was like so few and it was a lot of, it was probably non-US based too, but like North Face went through us like a stretch in like the 2010 to 2015 range where I think they were giving reasonable contracts where in theory you could quit your job.

And I mean at that time I think the big risk was like, no contracts were really that large to the degree where you're like, alright, this is safe. It's not life changing. Right, exactly. Yeah. And then on top of it, it's well, what happens if I belly flop here? Is it worth parting ways with what professional job I'm currently in [00:08:00] and putting a pause or maybe eliminating those opportunities in the future and.

I didn't, I wasn't really aware of it though, other than I knew some people had contracts, but the degree at which they were structured was a little unfamiliar to me until I actually hired an agent in Same, yeah. Mm-hmm. I'd to agents, right? Yeah. Yeah. Which was interesting at the time, 'cause I think this would've been like 2014.

Oh, wow, okay. I, yeah I hired an agent. I don't think there were a whole lot of people working with agents at that point. There might've been a couple available that kind of worked within the ultra space, but it was one of those things where if you knew nothing, it was a great opportunity to get that initial offer and then get okay here's what I'm worth.

But I think they were maybe like these, the agents didn't really have great career prospects yet either, so it's like they were probably doing the, it's a lawyer with a side hustle essentially. Yeah. And then it was a. Are they aware enough of the opportunities to go and find you more versus like you still doing all the [00:09:00] legwork and hunting that stuff down.

And then once you have an idea of what the value is, if you can put a price point on it, then it's well I can negotiate it myself too at that point. But yeah. It's getting more complicated and there's just so many more inputs now too. 'cause back then it was like race results.

That was about it. Race results, getting in on, I run far as often as you could. Hopefully you are popping up in magazines and things like that. And now it's alright, what is my race results worth? What is my Instagram exposure worth? If you host a podcast like I do appear. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. There's so much. Yeah. And I think for me I don't, yeah, with the whole agent thing, I was really on the fence about getting one, but I think where. My guy's name is Dylan Miller. So shout out to Dylan Miller. 'cause I could not shout out to Dylan. But for me, what was really helpful, 'cause I don't, that's the thing is and I don't know if this is like a female thing, if I even need to gender this, but I myself tend to [00:10:00] undervalue the things that I've done, and there's tons of voices on the internet telling you like, oh, well you only won that race because Courtney dropped out. Or you only did that because nobody else was there. And it's oh no, you're right. And so like that to me is confirmation that like, oh, I am thinking too highly of myself.

And Dylan was very good at being like, no you're worth this. Mm-hmm. This is ridiculous. Who cares who dropped out? Did you? Or did you not get to the finish line first with a 10 hour course record? That is the value. And so he was really good with, I guess like telling me that I was being stupid and being like, no, if they're offering you this, like this is not the correct value.

Mm-hmm. So you just need to wait until the company is going to give you the life changing deal. 'Cause that's my thing is if I'm only gonna get a, I'm just gonna throw a number out, but if I'm gonna get a $15,000 contract to be decked out, head to toe in something and sell my soul to this company for 15,000 I'm not doing that.

I'm still gonna have to work. Mm-hmm. Like not much. There's not enough of a change for me for that to be worth [00:11:00] it. The only way, and maybe this makes me difficult, but I don't know. But the only way for me to accept like a bunch of professional contracts was like, alright, well then I'm going to, you have to put me in a position where I'm able to quit my job so that I can pursue this full time because I'm just, I've already spent 10 years trying to do both like I've been putting up.

Pretty good results despite working a 40 to 65 hour a week healthcare job. I'm not doing that anymore. And I'm so much more curious to see, again, like I'm really excited about this year because I am getting the opportunity to train how and when I want to instead of working it around my schedule.

And I get to recover and sleep for eight hours a night instead of four because I'm not having to wake up at three 30 to get in a 20 mile training run before I go to work for 11 hours. Like I'm now that I'm not having to do those things like that is life changing. It's not even [00:12:00] really the money, it's just like the ability to see what I'm actually capable of.

That's what I wanted to get out of all of this. And so, yeah, I'm really stoked. Again, shout out Dylan. 'cause he made it all happen for me when I probably would've just been like, oh, well, I guess they're saying I'm worth 15 K. That must be what I'm worth. And I probably would still be working and not be able to really reach that potential if he hadn't been there to argue with me on it.

So yeah, I would say the hardest thing about going about it without an agent, 'cause I've done that too, is most I shouldn't say most brands, but plenty of brands, they will happily let you take the lower offer if you're not gonna push. And they're not gonna be like they're not gonna be around September, Hey, just so you know, we're exploring the market right now.

We're looking forward to it, we're planning for next year. So if you don't act early, then all of a sudden marketing budgets get [00:13:00] gobbled up and then contracts get assigned. And if you're sitting there and say December and you haven't. Brought anything to the table other than what you currently had from them, they can pretty easily pin you down because a lot of brands aren't gonna they're just not gonna have a bar marketing budget for you if you're planning on an annual or buy or multi-year deal type thing.

So it is one of those things where without the agent, you do almost have to like, go and pit brands against one another, which feels weird. And I think that's probably one of the most calming aspects of having an agent is like having them do that aspect. 'cause they have that information and obviously if they go to the brand you're working with and say, Hey, this is what we think this person's worth or what it's gonna take to get them to be able to dedicate and do what you want them to do as an athlete.

And they're like, yeah, we don't know. And they'll be like, well we got three brands here that are gonna do that. So, either you're one of them or you're not. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I do wish that there [00:14:00] was a lot more, 'cause I thought, oh, in 2024 maybe I can do this.

And I didn't know anything about the length of time that it took, the amount of money that contracts are actually worth. There's just no information out there. It's so opaque and nobody's really talking about it, especially back in 2024. I feel like we have had a little bit more over the last, I would say, six months.

Like people are getting a little bit more transparent with what that process looks like. But yeah, agents are helpful because, again, for me it's well, I guess I'm worth 15 K. That must be what other people are making. And it's no, like this person's making seven times that amount.

That's not what a contract looks like. And I really only know that. Mm-hmm. Because for whatever reason, I don't know if it's like an American thing or what, but like we don't really ever talk about salary in any context. And that doesn't. That hurts the workers. Mm-hmm. That hurts people in business and that hurts athletes trying to figure out how to navigate what a reasonable contract is worth.

Because I do think you're right. I think people are [00:15:00] going to accept the low end of things and they're gonna figure out how to manage so that their dream becomes possible. Like that's certainly what I would've done. Had I not, like I said, had Dylan in my ear as well, if you accept that contract, like you're still gonna have to get a job.

And like, how much is that gonna be worth it to you? So yeah, I do hope that the process becomes a little bit more transparent moving forward. And that's one of the things that I've, I don't wanna spill all the industry secrets or whatever, but like I do, I am pretty open when people ask how has the process been?

It's hard. And I don't know how, because you're right. It used to just be, I think, more results. Bias, but like now they have Instagram influencer contracts that are mm-hmm. Worth different, they're in different buckets of money. And it's not just about your results that are definitely important because this is still a sport, but like your results aren't the only thing that really matters anymore.

So yeah it's been a, we're at [00:16:00] this weird position, I think within the sport, and it's exciting because we are, we're growing so rapidly, but we don't have, in my opinion, I don't think we really have the infrastructure to like, figure out where to go and figure out where to put our priorities into making it an actual living for the majority of the professional athletes within it.

Mm-hmm. Like I know a lot of pro athletes have side gigs of coaching and it's I don't wanna do that because that is gonna, that's gonna retract detract from. My training if I have to sit down for 25 hours a week to figure out how to coach somebody. Mm-hmm. So yeah, I don't know.

I hope that we continue this trend of like further professionalizing the sport and I hope that it doesn't come at the detriment of 'cause the one thing I do really like about running is that anybody can do it and like I can line up at the same start line as you or Courtney Dewal or Andy Glaze.

Like I, we're all on the same start line, like anybody can do this. [00:17:00] And I don't want that to be something that we lose. 'Cause that's the thing I think is so cool. But yeah, I do think it'd be great if we could figure out how to make most professional athletes like a reasonable living. Yeah.

And I think like when you underpay the athlete too, and they wanna do it bad enough, it does create a perverse incentive of okay, now all of a sudden we muddy the markets of the coaching world because athletes who otherwise don't want to coach may do it because that may be their best option available to supplement their contract versus, oh, this person actually wants to coach and they wouldn't, they don't technically need to, but they're going to because they want to.

And it's, I think it just, it cleans that side of things up a little bit too with respect to just, having people doing the things that they're actually interested, engaged with versus things they just feel they have to for the sake of getting through. Getting by. Yeah, exactly. And part of, like the question that I've been bouncing around in my head when I was going through all the contract stuff, is it harmful to the sport to have an athlete accept a contract that's so far below what [00:18:00] they're.

Just because that's what, like one of the best instances I think of contract negotiation that I've seen so far, is Riley Brady waiting until they had a contract that was reasonable for them and was able to help supplement their life so that they could actually train in the way that they wanted.

So yeah I don't know. It's we're yeah. Interesting time for professionals running. Yeah, and the live streams are such an interesting aspect to that now too, where it's like for if I'm thinking like if I'm thinking, like if I'm trying to position someone like you to a brand, I'm thinking she just won Coca Donut two years in a row.

Coca Donut's, one of the more popular live streams in the sport. Yeah. And it's not six hours on a Saturday morning. Yeah. You know how it's for three days? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So you get this huge exposure point. So like just, you even. Going to Coca this year, regardless of what your end result is worth something to a brand.

'cause they capitalize on all that stuff that you pro for you did prior, and then the [00:19:00] additional attention that you'll get just for being the two time champ, two time, two time champion. Yeah. And it's just interesting to me too with the direction of the types of events and how they've gotten some of that where I love this topic where these, like multi-day two, like 200 plus miler ones seem to be events that some like these big.

Kind of cross between influencer slash athlete. I love the staff athlete. Go on. So like the Andy Glazes of the world or the Cam Haines of the world. You look at Coca Donut and there were probably like a handful of people there who by themself without any media from the event or the sport, could have brought in millions of eyeballs onto that event.

Now it would've been centered around them, but that brings people into the YouTube live stream then. And all of a sudden we have these events that have maybe gained more momentum than we would've originally expected they would. Yeah. [00:20:00] Because of that. Yeah. I'm a huge proponent of the multi-day livestream or any race livestream.

'cause at the end of the day, football is a multi-billion dollar corporation because it's televised. People can watch it. There's an advertisement. And I'm not saying that I want trail running to get there. But if we are trying to give athletes a salary, like we, that has to come from somewhere. And I don't want it to be because we're getting that money from like amateur runners necessarily, but like we need fans of the sport that aren't participating.

And in order for that to happen, then we have to have live streams and we have to have these big name like influencer types coming into these events and drawing eyes on them. Like I've said this in a bunch of media things that I've done. But all, I think a large majority of my success over the past year has been because Courtney came to Coca and like [00:21:00] now, just because she drops out, they're not just gonna turn it off.

Like now you're just gonna tune in for the rest. And there's me, you're just gonna watch me now. And so yeah, I really don't think. I would've had the same trajectory had it just been like 20, 24. Yeah, I might've had some people checking me out because Max Joof was running and like he has a pretty big falling also.

And we were pretty close in the race until he got rid and died. But yeah, I mean I do think that there's a lot of value in having these beloved figures who have transcended the sport so much that now they're just like a motivational sports person. Like we need those people in order to help progress the sport forward.

And for, yeah, I'm not sure what it is about the multi-day space that attracts those folks. I think maybe because it's new. Maybe they're realizing that there's, 'cause I'm with you, I think there's so much value for a lot of reasons, but we'll just talk about the marketing value of the multi-day.

'cause it's exactly what you said. I'm about to be, [00:22:00] I'm going to coconut again. Hopefully assuming I like it, I don't get injured or the world ends or something but I'm going to Coca Donut again and you're about to, I'm about to have 60 hours of brand visibility. And sure, we can pretend like that's not an excellent marketing opportunity, but it is if you put your logo on my face, like that's gonna be visible for 60 hours and that could be extremely valuable to a brand.

So yeah, I don't know. It's a, the multi-day space is really an interesting frontier that we're mm-hmm. Getting into these days. Yeah, I have some theories about the multi-day growth and I think it's, I think some of it is, there's there's a, there's something that's semi-unique to ultra running that I think gravitates towards this idea of lack of optimization or the unknown.

Yeah. And these multi-day events are still at that point where people like you, like Killian Kuth, Mike McKnight max [00:23:00] Joli are going through this process of trial and error during the race. Yeah. Because you're the pioneers for a lot of it. Like you're learning the tricks and the things that work and the things that don't work, and you're doing it for us.

So when we decide you, right. We sh yeah. We should be very grateful for that. 'cause that's like the foundation that gets built upon that eventually gets the part where now all of a sudden we've got really good actionable items that make a lot of sense. And for the average person who decides, these things aren't cheap.

So a lot of people are like that. Maybe I wanna do a 200 miler, but they might only do one, or they might only do a few total. So they don't wanna make mistakes they don't have to make. Right. And when you have, lemme make them for you. Exactly. Yeah. 10 years ago. Yeah. Well, and then the other things, we accelerate that process with professionalization.

So exactly like with when like you and Killian signed contracts that allow you to step away from, 40 plus hours of time you would've spent doing something else, now all of a sudden you have the [00:24:00] opportunities to do that problem solving in training a little bit better and plan a little bit more strategically and unearth some of those things a little quicker than maybe we would've, you'd be able to otherwise.

So yeah, there's so I, and, but I do think we're still in that process of getting that learning. So there's still a huge unknown that I think attracts like maybe the ethos of ultra running, whereas I don't wanna say a hundred milers. Are so refined that we have all the answers, but we certainly have a much more clear protocol of what we have.

Yeah. A book. Yeah. So I think that they kind of have lost a little bit of that. And so people who are really seeking that out, that side of the sport out are gonna just naturally maybe head over to something that offers that. And I guess if we take that to its logical conclusion, then who knows what kind of events we will have in 10 years.

But I know, God, I, it is funny because I remember my mom when I signed up for Coca Donut, 'cause it's like, all right, well I've done a couple 40 eights now, and like those are fun and I'm just gonna do Coca Donut. And like [00:25:00] I did pretty well at it. And I remember my mom being like, oh my God. What are you gonna run next?

Are you gonna do a 500 mile race? And I hope not. Yeah, I don't, it's funny because now I'm, I am almost looking back onto my mountain hundred. Stuff and like my shorter distance stuff and being like, okay, well I've checked off the long, like I've checked off go longer. So like now maybe we can return back to go faster or figure out how to be more efficient at, because it is funny how hard a relative is, it's like a sliding scale.

And now that I've done a 250 mile race a bunch of times, it's like, all right, a hundred miles really isn't that far. So what can I improve with this distance? Like how can I I, how can I, is using a crew can I be as fast as people who use a crew without having to use one?

I don't know if it's, the 200 spaces taught me to look with a different lens at shorter distances and figure out like, well, can I apply some of these [00:26:00] like strategies with the multi-day? Or like these questions that I have no answers to can I still apply those to the shorter distances?

And so it's been fun to go back to shorter air quotes stuff. Now that I have this huge relative 200 multi-day background. So I'm excited to see what that looks like this year. 'cause yeah, Coca Donut is, I did 300 three, 200 mile races last year and I was like, I'm not doing that again.

Yeah, that's a lot. That's too many. Mm-hmm. So I'm really excited to get back into the traditional race distances and see if I can push a little harder knowing that it's quite short. And see where that finds me. So that is the other piece to it too, where you get this scenario where now all of a sudden, race results are part of the picture and doing well at them carries higher consequences. So once someone has the flexibility to be a little more choosy, I think we see like a little bit of a refinement [00:27:00] towards optimization with what you do in racing. And I've got a few different things with this I wanna talk to you about.

One is just. The relative conversation around the multi-day stuff, where I'm sure you've seen it. It's like it's, I actually find it funny because early on in ultra running it felt like we were trying to necessarily prove ourselves to the broader running world where it was almost like, Hey, we're here to, don't make fun of us.

Yeah. Yes, we do hike sometimes, but don't make fun of us. And then we got, yeah, we got big enough where like we have our own media, we have our own kind of system here. And I think it's less like we, maybe we argue amongst ourselves a little bit more now. So we start comparing like, a hundred milers to 200 milers.

And my first thought was that just when I look at the race schedule of some of the top runners in the 200 miler, it's like you and Killian are great examples of this. 'cause I [00:28:00] think. I think Killian did three, 200 milers last year. You did three, 200 milers last year. That's, there's some loss of optimization there.

There just has to be, and I'm sure, so that makes me think like, all right, well, like we have to factor that in if we're talking about just like contributions to the sport or. Because you almost have to do that at first, right? Like you probably almost had to do that to get the contract that you got.

So there's like this hurdle that you have in front of you and killing had in front of him for at least a year to get to the point where they can, you can start being a little more choosy. And I think we saw that kind of hurdle get cleared in the a hundred mile stuff where you go back to the 2012, 13 timeframe where Tim Olson, he wins Western States in 2012 racing, like all the, what were the Montreal Ultra Cup series, which are now the golden ticket stuff.

Yeah. And Montreal. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Remember Montreal? Yeah, man. Yeah. They should be huge by [00:29:00] now, right? You think? Sad violin, but yeah. So it's like Tim I think of that sometimes now when we look at oh, look how fast Western States has gotten. I'm like, well, Tim ran 1440. At Western States, he had to do it in a much more difficult manner.

'cause he couldn't just focus on Western states. He had to do four or five races just to keep himself available and in the spotlight enough to generate the contract he needed. Whereas now it's if you get into Western States, you might be able to send a contract just for the fact that you're there and could potentially get the top 10.

Right. Yeah. So I always caution people when they're talking about that don't ask yourself, what would these hundred milers do if they entered the 200 miler space? Ask what those hundred milers would do if they had to do three of them in four months. Yeah. And stay in one piece. 'cause that's probably the better way to compare it if you're, if we're going to even, that's the thing.

I'm glad you brought this up because I think that is, I'll just look at my last year, but that's the one thing that I think [00:30:00] is not. I don't wanna pat myself on the back too much here, but I did a 200 in January. I won outright a hundred miler in March. I did Coca Donut in May. I did High Lonesome in July and got a course record and then I did Mammoth and did it really fast.

I did a marathon there and I was only, I think I was only 15 minutes off the course record, which is pretty good considering I haven't run a marathon in forever. I did a couple 50 milers there and it's I don't know, I would be really curious to see what a good hundred is a 200 mile race going to take out a good hundred miler?

And their season is just now done, right? That's the question that I have. I don't know. I don't. We'll see, I know that Heather Jackson is signed up for Coca Donut as of right now, and like she, to me is a very good hundred miler. Like she's quite fast. She's put up great times in the states.

Like I'm curious what that's going to do for her season, mm-hmm. Would you, like if Jim [00:31:00] Wamsley were to sign up for Cocodona, would that be it? Would he be done for the rest of the year? Because like it, those, if you haven't done a multi-day, like those things are really hard and I know that we can make it look easy.

But recovering from one of those is like an act of God. And so to, for someone like Killian, I don't know how he did that. Max Joli and I were talking about this, 'cause I think he did, I guess he either did two or 300, or 200 milers last year, and both he and I were like, that was too many.

But with the triple crowd, I mean you're doing three, two hundreds and what. Five months is insane. And to still be doing pretty reasonably fast times at them is I think really impressive. And I don't think that is something that we're given a lot of credit for, like the ability to recover, train some for the next event, and then execute a still Killian [00:32:00] was racing people who'd probably only done Moab two 40.

Mm-hmm. Like the only 200 they signed up for was Moab and he still beat them having 600 or 400 miles of racing on his legs. And like that to me is, I don't know, that's the other side of that question of oh, with Jim Wamsley come and just do Coca Donut in 40 hours. Like maybe, but what else is he doing that year?

Because I've got six other events that I'm doing. I'm like, mm-hmm. What's he doing? So yeah, I don't know. It's an interesting question. Yeah. Yeah, I find it interesting too when you start getting up in the multi-day stuff. 'cause we have different variables in the sport in general, but then as you go up in distance, those variables are either added to sleep deprivation is probably the big one when you get into the multi-day versus any, most a hundred milers or probably all a hundred miles for the most part.

Yeah. Then there's like, where does the weighting of those variables start to favor and detract from one another? So the shorter the [00:33:00] race, the bigger that variable of just running efficiency gets, 'cause you can do more of it. It's one that can mask a lot of other things that are potentially suboptimal.

Yeah. You get up in these multi-day, now it's just maybe that's not as important as two or three other things, whereas it is the most important in, at Western states or some of these more runnable hundred miler type stuff, or runable Ultras in general. And I find that really interesting.

'cause I think we still wear these, like I think we look through this narrow tunnel of speed and think that is the most important variable just by default. Yeah. And at some point it's not the most important variable and that's a big question as to where and what happens with that.

Yeah. Yeah. I think an interesting parallel is watching Molly Seel and Des Lydon jump into Black Canyon. Because objectively if they were to race any of us at a marathon distance, they went 'cause they just got that insane foot [00:34:00] speed. But there's a learning curve. There's a huge learning curve when it comes to trail running.

And I think that parallel of again, there's that question of well, if an elite marathon runner came into Ultras, but they just demolish everybody. It's well, we have a small sample size, but we now have a sample size of and the answer is yes, but it's yes, Molly came in and destroyed everybody at Bandera, but like she had a lot of problem solving that she had to do in order to still maintain that status at Black Canyon a hundred k.

Dez had a great race at Black Canyon, but there's a big learning curve, and I think that the 200 mile space, maybe it has a learning curve, like you, you do. Yeah. I don't know. It's not fair to say that a hundred milers would just come in and destroy everybody because well, if that's the case, then Molly Seidel is going to win Western states.

And that's a big, big question. So yeah, I don't know. I'm here for the learning curve. Yeah, I don't care. Yeah I'm excited to. I think Coca Donut's race this year is [00:35:00] gonna be really competitive on both the men's and women's side. And I'm, I think that we need that competition in order to get more data points into what is the best practice for racing these.

If you have a ton of elites running a hundred milers, okay, great, now you've got all of these data points on what's worked for all those people. And you can cross reference, well they were eating this amount, like this range of carbs per hour, so that's probably, and like they were running at this heart rate and like they all got top 10.

So that's probably where we need to be. And now we have all these elite folks coming into the 200 space and so hopefully we can learn a lot this year. From. More people dip their toes into that 200 space. So let me know when you wanna do Coca Donut, 'cause I think we'd love to have you, I need to do one at some point.

I definitely probably need to join you and Killian on one of your training camps first though, so I can learn the ropes. Yeah, come anytime. I'm happy to. I live in Colorado. I live in the Arkansas Valley, so love to have you. Okay, awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I think that would probably be [00:36:00] fun and maybe that would get me I'm very interested in the multi-day stuff.

I'm trying to figure out where my, like real, he, here's what I'm thinking. I think I might have talked about this with killing when he was on. It's like I've done enough now where I know if I don't have a real reason why, it doesn't matter how excited I am about it before it starts, I'm gonna find myself like two thirds of the way.

That thing. And then you're gonna be stripped raw and you're gonna have to have that actual why to be there and keep pushing yourself through that. So I'm trying to really get a good grip on what that is and. I guess I could just do one and just see what happens too. Well, I think if you wanna answer the question of what happens when an elite a hundred mile runner comes and does a 200 miler, there we go.

I could try running that experiment, yeah. Yeah. So answer the question, I think better than most 'cause yeah, I would say that you're an elite hundred miler personally, but Yeah, I'm good on the flat stuff, so I have probably two hurdles to get over the duration and the train, but I think the [00:37:00] train becomes less of an issue for me, the slower the pace goes.

Yeah. My biggest hurdle, usually when I've done trail stuff and mountain stuff, is I need to spend a good amount of time practicing downhill running, especially if it's got a technical aspect to it. Usually that just comes with. Planning far enough ahead. And then the relative reduction in intensity outta necessity for the duration of those things, I think makes that a little bit easier for me too.

'cause I'm not trying to fly down those downhills quite as quickly. I'd be curious, I'd be curious to see the sleep deprivation side of Yeah. I'm afraid. Afraid that's a weakness. Mean done. You're done in 11 hours. Like you can get a I know that actually, I am actually concerned about that. I think that would probably be something I would have to figure out a protocol for because I don't think it's a strength.

I've actually thought about this because, there's just, we just know there are people who do better on less sleep. There's people who go their entire life sleeping four to five hours a night just because of some weird Yeah. Uniqueness to them. And I, I wonder if we put and, if we packed enough competitive [00:38:00] pressure into these multi-day, would those people all of a sudden have that gonna be like at some point.

A necessity to be able to have that trait to be able to compete because it's just too powerful compared to not having it. Yeah, I mean I think probably that's my answer to that. 'cause I know the top, I actually, I guess I don't know what Ed Ramirez, he got third at Coco Donut, but I slept for maybe 25 minutes, like Max.

I think Dan and Ryan Sands both were like 10 minutes. Wow. So, yeah, we're not sleeping, yeah, I do. And I do think that ability to perform at a deficit is, we all got the top five, mm-hmm. I don't know, I don't know if, 'cause when Matt when Mike verse EEG won it back in 2021 I, I seem to recall him sleeping like.

And you could sleep for hours mm-hmm. And still get on the [00:39:00] podium and like we are no longer, it is a different sport. And so, yeah. I do, I think having somebody like Mike Verti talk about maybe the differences between like year one, 'cause he is done it every year, like year one and year because six, like what have you noticed has changed?

Like what are the podium people now doing that's different? And I think I, and only the two years I've run it, the biggest things I've noticed is sleeping way less and starting out way faster. So yeah. I do think that the sleep piece is, if you are good at not sleeping, you should try a multi-day.

Yeah. Because I think that having that in your back pocket is a strength. It is important. Yeah. Yeah. My guess is once it starts getting beyond maybe 48 hours, 50 hours, there's probably gonna be. Some value sleep and then the question becomes how much? Yeah. And I do wonder how that'll go. 'cause I think one thing with the more takes the a hundred miler or anything a hundred miles [00:40:00] or under, we still have a fairly positive split mentality with races.

Yeah. And I actually think that's a weakness in our sport right now. I actually think that it should tighten a little bit more than it is currently. Yeah. And we just haven't seen it tighten because it hasn't cost enough people yet to the degree where it becomes so detrimental that you go out too fast.

That, and we're still exploring where the limits are for a large poor portion of these hundred milers too. But I do think if we would, we would inject just like 10 times the amount of talent into these hundred milers, say Western States or UTMB. I think we start seeing much closer to even splits, like however that ends up playing out.

Obviously these courses have unique profiles. So take Black Canyon for example. I think the men's field is usually right around a 10% positive split and we're gonna have a positive is gonna be even on that or Yeah. So some percentage of positive is gonna be even on that course because of that [00:41:00] downhill start.

Yeah, exactly. And then the heat and everything in the second half of the day and all that stuff. But I do think like in general, something within a couple percentage points of even for these like single day things anyway, I don't know, like the multi-day, there may be some arguments to be said about positive splitting.

'cause it's just, that is where I am. I have a very optimistic goal at Coca and it's trying to go under 60 hours and I have already determined that the way that I make up that time is in the back half of the race because I always slow down. And even in Mammoth, the 200 miler that I did in September, like I think Jimmy and I both, I don't even want to know what our positive split was.

'cause we both did, I think he did the first hundred in 17 hours or something. And I was maybe 1830. And we both finished at the 40 hour rate. Okay. So, I don't [00:42:00] wanna do the math on that because I don't think it says anything good, but well, you guys are both pioneers right?

Yeah. That was, that, that, that was the first year of Mammoth, wasn't it? That's the first year. Yeah. Whatever. And it's also, it's not exactly a, it's 214 or 15 miles. So it's also not exactly a 200 mile race, but like I do, I think in the same way that split needs to be more even that's what I've determined I need to work on the most at Coca Donut in order to achieve that goal is like, well, I hit a 20 hour, a hundred miler in Coca Donut last year.

So like, all right, like, why did I do a 26 hour following hundred and then a 12 hour 50 miler like that? I should, I need to figure out a way to tighten that up a little bit. Do you think that comes slower in the first half or do you think you can just make that up by speeding up in the second half through some other variable controllable variable?

I feel like the answer is the second one, and I don't want it to be, but I [00:43:00] don't think, I don't think there's any more. And I've written about this before, but I do think if you're trying to win the race, you can't assume that the field is going to go slow in the first half. We're still gonna run fast.

I just think you have to be able to still run fast in the second half. Mm-hmm. And that's where, 'cause I, I. Even last year, like I gave myself so much slack on the Climb up Eldon, because it's about a I don't know, we'll call it a 10 mile climb going up Eldon. And I was like, whatever, I'll jog. I'm 18 hours ahead of the next person.

So I don't care. And that is not the attitude that we need to have. Like I, what I should be doing is well, can I run this and can I push this pace? And I think especially in the back half of something that's as long as Coca, we give ourselves maybe too much grace when I probably, and there were a lot of mud issues at Coca, so there were certain sections where I was like, [00:44:00] walking is more efficient here.

So I'm sure that played a role in the slowdown, but yeah, I do think trying to figure out a way to tighten or to make that split more even is the future for maybe both two hundred and one hundred. Because how do you, how do you split. If you're doing something like, I don't know, desert solstice, like what does your split look like?

Are you even, are you trying to be even? Yeah, the goal is pretty close. I think there's if I could predict exactly what I was, like, if I could go into a race knowing this is my upper potential this time right here, and then I was supposed to build out a split chart for that. I would be building it probably with a couple percentage points on either side of even, and I think that's probably the loading zone.

So like my fastest hundred miler, I actually had a negative split. I was five 40 for the first 50 and 5 38 for the second 50. And it was weird. It, because I had dispelled some hard principles that I had [00:45:00] from that experience itself where I was just like, wow. I felt really good at the end of that race.

And I didn't really know what was on the table even. I thought there was gonna be some level of just. This sucks. I hate being here at that point, almost no matter what at that stage. Yeah. In a hundred miles, regardless of how you split it. And that kind of taught me, okay. No, you can actually feel like you're accelerating at the end.

But the hard part is since that was my fastest one, then it's okay, well that becomes the standard I'm trying to shoot for. Yeah. And like it's a hard standard, it's hard to get back in that shape. So then if you do one without having the same thing line up, now all of a sudden, like that same split that I hit the first time, it doesn't produce a faster second one for other variables.

But I think in theory, I think and granted these like track ultras and flat loop courses they're gonna be a little bit more predictable with respect to that. 'cause you aren't changing anything. It's everything. Right. Even the back half of Coca Donut, now you're at altitude. Mm-hmm.

You're at 5K minimum. So like that of course, but I [00:46:00] think, I think if we're actually trying to be as. Scientific, and really try to reach that limit of human potential. Sure. You'll have to, you'll have to take into account altitude or terrain changes, weather, whatever. And I think to some extent well now you've been awake for 39 hours, so you keep that into account too.

But I think if you are trying to really push that 200 speed potential, like you have to look at it almost the way that you would look at doing a track a hundred is okay, well what's the minimum amount of change that is acceptable? So that's what I've been, I was, I've been thinking about what the last couple of days are like, all right, well, like what does a good split look like at Coca?

I don't know if I haven't done a lot of research on it, but I wonder what the likes of men's and women's split times have been because I bet it's, I bet it's a 30% change. And we could probably do a little bit better than that. I think right now I do think [00:47:00] the women get closer to me even though I think so too.

Yeah. And of the really highly tested events that I think stands out a little bit is, I wanna say, so, so Nick Curry has this like chart, this formula that he uses where he puts like in a course and he tries to control as many, as much of those variables as possible to determine whether it's like where it's deviating from even, and his, for Western states.

I think he had Courtney when she ran the course record at like just under 2% positive. So that's a, I would say that's pretty, that's within the. The loading zone that I would consider as I don't think I think she ran the best race she could that day. I'm not, I think she ran it pretty even.

Yeah. It was well executed is probably the way to say it. So, so yeah. It'll be interesting to see how that all evolves as the sport continues to grow. Yeah, I think so too. Yeah. So are you I wanna dive a little bit into kinda like your training and I imagine that's maybe changed a little bit now that you can train a little differently.[00:48:00] 

But do you have a protocol that you try to employ with respect to once you pick a race that you really wanna, maybe it's hard last year 'cause I don't know how much of that stuff was planned out a year in advance versus taking opportunities as they came. But I'd be curious about your training protocol.

My training protocol. It's funny, I was just on a phone call with somebody who was asking me for help with an event that he has coming up. I'm like, how do I train for this thing? And I think that the way I look at training is. I basically want to be able to say yes to anything at any time.

That is to me, like the best type of training, and especially when you're looking at a multi-day. So like training for Coca Donut, like I need to be able to run at the speed that I dictate, not that my body dictates, but like that I dictate I need to be able to run at that speed no matter what time of day it is, no matter how tired I am, no matter like what I've just eaten, like whatever.

And so really what that involves is just saying yes to anytime anybody invites me on a run, whatever they're doing, whatever [00:49:00] they're doing like I will be saying yes to that thing. And I will be saying double yes if it's things that I don't wanna do, like speed work. Because like you just, I know that there's this like phrase of bulletproofing your whatever life or whatever, but that's that to me, I think is the biggest way that I look at training.

I don't really structure. Stuff. I don't do speed work or thresholds. I don't even really know what a threshold is. No one has really been able to explain it to me yet. But I don't do anything that's particularly scientific. I do go based off of feeling most of the time I have a certain amount of miles per week that I'm trying to like, get to.

But yeah, I mean it's really just like I want to be in the position where if someone texts me and says Hey, I have 10 miles and I'm gonna be going at a 6 45 pace on the road. I can say yes to that and then the next day I can say yes to going on a 25 mile trip run. That is the goal, and it did, it took me a long time to get [00:50:00] to this point where I can say yes to doing all those things. Like I, I very slowly built up my mileage over the last, again, 15 years. But I would say since 20, probably 2018 I've been trying to hit an arbitrary metric of 70 miles per week.

Mm-hmm. And I started just with alright, I'm only looking at mileage, I'm not looking at elevation gain, I'm not looking at time on feet. It doesn't matter to me. I got really comfortable with that mileage thing and then it was like, well, okay, what races am I signing up for? So like I remember when I signed up for I Am Tough in 2018 or 2019, that was the first time I was like, okay, well I probably need to like, think about how I'm doing this and I'm Tough is a race that has quite a lot of climbing.

I wanted to try to do it fast and so okay, I need to probably take that 70 miles and expand it so that it's more specific to the thing that I'm doing. Mm-hmm. And so I would do, I always call it the church of the back to back long runs [00:51:00] because I would just do these like 30 mile runs and then a 20 mile run, and I would just do that three times a month.

And that just builds that durability and I would usually try to do that second run faster to just, I don't know, get my mental space well, even if your legs are tired, you could still move them. And I think figuring out how to move your legs when you're really tired is another thing that fixed time racing has taught me as well, there's no excuse for you to really be moving that much slower and you probably can still run this pace. You just don't want to. And so, yeah, I guess a lot of, and I do genuinely love running, so it's not that I ever don't want to do anything, but but as long as I'm not injured, if it's just like a, ugh, I'd rather be lazy today than go on this run I'm probably gonna say yes to going on the run.

And even if I'm tired, I'm gonna try at least to. Convince myself to be doing the paces that I'm supposed to be doing. So yeah, I really, it's, I feel bad because so much of my training is more like art [00:52:00] based than science. But but yeah, I really I just say yes to going on runs with the different people, doing different things and and if they, aren't as good as me or whatever, that's a weird thing to say, but if I'm the expert in this group, then like, all right, well I'm gonna teach you how to do this.

And like that in effect is gonna help me learn what it is that I'm actually doing here. So yeah.

Yeah, I think it probably just highlights how multi-varied these long races are, where you do have to be, yes. Like you probably can't overly optimize for any one thing, other than maybe just, and that's the big, when I was training for coconut the first year, I was petal multiple times because I'd only done flat 48 hour races and I barely squeaked into two hundreds.

And so it's like, all right, well now I'm doing 250 on a trail, like what am I doing? But it really was just like running all the time. Like I would [00:53:00] do, I hate doing two a day. I know. I think you really like doing them. I think they're terrible and I hate them, but like I'm saying yes to doing them. I'm running before work.

I'm running after work. 'Cause that is just, you have to run. I mean if you're, I guess if you're trying to be competitive or if you're trying to finish in a time that is hard for you, like you have to be able to run any time no matter if you don't want to. 'cause during the race, I can promise you there's gonna be times when.

You don't wanna run, but there's really no reason for you not to. And you have to face that before the race happens. 'cause when the race happens, you're gonna be tired, you're gonna be hungry, you're gonna be cold. You're just like, you're gonna wanna hang out at the eight station. But like your goal is to get to the finish line as fast as you possibly can.

So why are you shooting yourself in the foot by not, I guess confronting difficult running before the race starts. Yeah, I don't know, run all the time. I guess that not getting [00:54:00] injured is rule number one, but other than that, just saying yes to any type of running that you possibly can is the rule for training for Multiday, I think.

Yeah. Yeah. Staying injury free is huge 'cause you just compound training on top of itself over time. And that's been a. Skillset set you've had, I think, and I think it does get to be interesting stuff where it's you look at, it's well, what's the best thing on paper? Not, it's like, well, the best thing on paper results in you getting injured all the time, then it's probably not the best.

Right, right. So I'd be curious, do you, if you could imagine an intensity where if you went down to the track or on a road or something and just ran as hard as you could for around, around 12 minutes, like that intensity do you do anything that gets close to that in training? I, God, the first time, so the trail group here, okay.

It is called the Women of the Swatch. And they started doing a winter speed series and I had to ask what a 400 was because I [00:55:00] don't know what that is. And I didn't know how to Oh, cool. Yeah, they were like, oh, go at your 5K pace. And I was like, what does that mean? And what is a 10 K pace?

I don't know these things. And so, yeah I don't know. Yeah. How fast can I run in 12 minutes? I have no idea. I would just try to run as fast as I possibly could. So the way that I looked at my, when we were doing like 400 repeats at different paces, my 5K pace was run as fast as you possibly can.

My 10 K pace was like, I don't know, run as fast as you possibly think. 90% of as fast as you can, which winds up being, I just run it as fast as I can. Hold back a pinch. I remember I think Addie was saying my 10 K and my 5K paces are the same because I don't know. And then, yeah, I guess the same.

Yeah, my half marathon was like, my half marathon pace is probably too slow 'cause it's oh, I don't know, maybe it's a seven 30 and it's not. But yeah, I don't know. It has been really interesting to do speed work because [00:56:00] there's not a lot of time in my training, otherwise I'm really running that fast.

And sometimes I'll, if I'm feeling really good on a particular day and I'm, I've got like a trail run that I'm doing I can try to hammer the uphill really hard and that feels similar, but it's still not the same as running really fast. Yeah. And then same thing goes for if I'm doing a, if I'm doing like a forest service road, like downhill, like a 3% grade, it's oh, I feel like I could probably try to like, let's see if we can do this entire six mile downhill at like below a seven minute pace.

But really the only time I'm getting that like top upper echelon of speed is during speed workouts. Mm-hmm. Okay. But you're jumping in with people, I think it's funny 'cause I mean I think you can probably just go a long way doing that. I don't think you have to get all that. Serious about Yeah, like breaking it down, especially for what you're doing with the long stuff. I think just doing things that are hard. Yeah.

Occasionally are probably gonna be enough to move the [00:57:00] needle. So it's always interesting 'cause I think of it if we did like an interval session, like my pace is versus your paces, but then if I'm pretty sure if we did, if I jumped in Coca Donut, I'm almost positive you beat me.

Yeah. I dunno, I have no idea that's that's the, that, and that I guess is the cool thing about, I guess being on a frontier race distance is like nobody really knows who's gonna be good at, I think if you have an issue with sleep deprivation, then yeah, I'm gonna kick your butt. But because I don't care about that at all.

I'm just like a walking zombie going at 10 : 30. But yeah, I don't know. I definitely. I think the areas where I could improve the most on my performances in general is figuring out how to, so one of the things I think is so cool about Tara Dower is that she finishes a race and her needle is on empty every single time.

It doesn't matter what the [00:58:00] distance is, it doesn't matter what, it doesn't matter. She's empty every time. Mm-hmm. And I do not know how she does it. I don't know how to find that ability within myself. Like I, because honestly, I finished Coca Donut and like I was stoked it was over, but was I on empty?

No. I probably had, if you had, if you'd held a knife to my throat and been like, run 50 more miles, I would've been able to do that. And that is not fun. I'd like to be able to figure out how to get to that place where you finish and you're just like, destroyed. Like you could not have done any more than you've already done.

So yeah, I think that's, with jumping into these more competitive races that I have coming up and with Coca Donut coming up with such a stacked field and me coming in with so much experience in the multi-day, it's alright, like I really wanna find the empty, like I want to do that entire race, like pushing myself so that I'm able to get to that empty barometer, [00:59:00] wow. You should take a trip to Japan. I think you do. So I joke about this 'cause like when you describe Tara I think Zach Miller is a lot like that too, where like you, he's like emptying the tank. I remember the first time I was really exposed to Japanese run culture was in 2014.

I did World hundred K. And Japan had a team there. And it was like, I had this mindset at the time where it's like, this era, these races, like once you break someone, you broke them. And then it was like, okay. And I ran a pretty conservative start to that race. I think I started out in like 33rd place and then worked up to sixth and, so I'm passing people.

I'm like, okay, that person's, I'm One more up. One more up. Yeah. And there's a couple of these Japanese runners where I'd pass. I'm like, okay, he's dead. You could just tell it looked like he was fading. He looked like he was a mess and we've got like 40 kilometers ago. There's no way. And then all of a sudden, 10 minutes later, this guy came storming past me, and this happened five or six times over the course of the race. And one of 'em ended up finishing right in front of me, like a few seconds in front of me. So it's like [01:00:00] there, then I started getting just like trying to look into just what they are like, 'cause Japan has a super rich running culture.

One of my buddies at the time had, he was already really into it, so he was telling me, dude, you have to like, research these guys, check out all the, I look at the entire time. And that's just the way they race. It's really fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. And just and never give up like you hit a rough patch and then it's okay, like there's, they're gonna make a comeback.

They're gonna whatever, however bad the race is, it's gonna at least be like. They're gonna drag themselves to the finish line kind of a mentality, I think. And it's if they need to, and then when they knock it outta the park, it's yeah, okay. They, well, that's felt, they didn't leave anything on table because Roger Paul this past weekend, they weren't gonna anyway at Jackpot.

I watched his finish line and I was like, that is what I want to find, is like mm-hmm. Dude, he was like, immediately hypothermic and like, why not to throw up on everybody? And I've never finished a race, like leaving it all out here. I [01:01:00] think that's so cool. Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh, sick. Yeah. Oh, I voted for Raja's coming on Thursday so that Harry, he's next up.

Yeah. Yeah. He, because even at the end of his, where he's like shivering in a blanket. Yeah. His hair is flawless. So how do you do this? Gosh, I don't understand. Yeah, he's a cool guy, but it's been really fun to watch because I know he's been injured. Kick. And then after last year, that frustrating shoe thing at the jackpot.

Yeah. Yeah. That was lame. Mm-hmm. And so it's been really, it was really cool to keep up with his race. Oh, I know. And watch as he just destroyed it. And again, finishing on empty, it's like that's I think in order to be the best, that is what it takes. And I don't know how to find that yet.

So I guess I need to go, I need to go to Japan. I'll,

yeah, I do. I do wonder if there's, in most cases, [01:02:00] if that's like an experience that can only be done so many times before it becomes almost its own enemy to some degree, where all of a sudden like you're just fried or something like that. Watch, I'm sure people have different tolerances.

Watch, but be a case study for the next five years. Who knows? Because yeah, I do, I, and I think that's. Yeah, it's been a question I've been watching, closely I've asked if I love running. I wanna be able to do this in some capacity forever, because it just means so much to me. And it's well, if you subscribe to Gary Cantrell's, well you only have 10,000 good miles in you.

It's okay, well I don't really wanna, I only use those all up by the time I'm 40. I wanna do this for a long time. And I think we've seen a lot of people who have Ludovic, right? Whatever his last name is. And honestly, even like Camille Herron, they're older athletes who are still just destroying everybody.

And they seemingly haven't really slowed down all that much. And so it's oh, maybe we have more than just 10,000 or a hundred thousand good miles in us. [01:03:00] Maybe we have yeah, maybe we can push that envelope and maybe we can do it for a lot longer than we thought. So yeah, it's funny. Yeah, that's.

Yeah. That's enough. Yeah. Pata Jennings is 45 when she, anyway, and yeah, I don't know how broke the world record at Tunnel Hill, so, oh, I'm blanking on her name. Who just got the record at Jackpot here? Ashley Paulson. Yeah. I saw she was, I think she said 40 to 40, so she's Ashley Paulson.

Yeah. I don't know. I certainly wouldn't be thinking that in 10 years I'm gonna be faster than I am now, but apparently that's possible. And not just from a, and not just from a pure speed perspective, but if you look at Ludo, he's what? 50? Yeah. And he just won Hard Rock, like in a time that is fast, objectively, no matter how you look at it.

Mm-hmm. So it's whether it's trail or a track just because you get older, if you're smart, like it doesn't mean you have to slow down. So that's exciting. It is funny with the examples like Ashley and Katriana [01:04:00] that they are actually like events where, like your pace at aerobic threshold pace at lactate threshold pace at VO O2 max, are pretty heavy variables. Whereas you get into the two, three day timeframe, now all of a sudden that's less of a variable.

So then in theory, age would be less of a potential. I'm deterred at least for that specific thing, like a broken record. But I am really stoked to see the next decade of ultra running because if we just look at the, if we look at the timeframe from when I started to now, yeah, our shoe technology is better.

My first pack was terrible. I don't even know what that thing was called. Right. It was, I guess it was a camelback. I don't even know if those are around anymore. But yeah, we've just made so many advances and we've seen as a result, like people are just getting faster and better and we're able to do more races and I don't know it's an exciting time to be here yeah.

I did have one other [01:05:00] question I wanted to ask you before, before I let you go. Okay. Is like your nutrition approach I'm guessing, yeah. Yeah. I was like, given that you just, your first salt in thousand 10. I'm sure it's changed since then, but I think you work with Precision now too, right?

So, yeah. Are you going, like, when you go into something like Coca Donut, how detailed is that? Are you thinking of it through okay, here's some basic necessities and then I'm gonna be a little more intuitive about it? Yeah, I definitely think more along the way because it's so long and you may have different preferences if you get further into it.

I tend to under fuel. Pretty routinely. Until I remember my scientist, her name is Emily at the Works with Precision, I think my second race where I was working with her, I had food poisoning during a hundred miler and I actually didn't eat anything, like I was not able to, and I won the race. I think I won it outright.

And I just went back to Emily and I was like, I don't know what to do with this data. I'm so sorry. So for me, with something like [01:06:00] Coca Donut, I have my staples that I like to fuel with. But for me, I'm not really looking at like, how many grams an hour am I doing or whatever.

It's basically if I don't remember the last time I ate something, then I just need to eat something. And for me, I, and I've actually, I think I've talked with Kelly and Coth about this, but I don't know how helpful Grams per hour is. In a multi-day, as much as it is just thinking about it from a calorie perspective, like, how many calories did I just eat?

Like I need it to be like 500 an hour or something. Because that just, I don't know, for whatever reason, for both of us, we just decided that makes more sense. But yeah, I definitely, I have a certain approach that I use for doing, I would say a mountain a hundred miler or a multi-day like you're eating more real foods, you're eating hot things, you're eating like rice and broth and potatoes and like pizza.

I guess I don't, haven't really eaten pizza. Yeah. Yeah. Actually [01:07:00] Emily, my food scientist is coming. It's almost impossible to track it all accurately at that point. I'm like, let's do a case study. I think that'll be sick. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah. Heck yeah. That'd be awesome. But I tried, she's like a vegetarian waiting for this pizza.

Is there pepperoni on it? Water? Nuts actually like dry salty. How am I eating these nuts? During Multiday and during Mountain hundreds. Okay. Because I fuel those, I would say the same. I, but I tried that approach during a 50 miler that I did recently in which my intensity was considerably higher.

And it did not work. So I do, and it taught me a really valuable lesson about intensity versus the type of fuel that's important to keep you going at the intensity you wanna go at. And it was like, 'cause I just, I remember being like, how am I supposed to eat sugar? Like simple sugar, you really think I'm gonna be able to eat like simple sugar for seven hours?

That sounds Yeah. Very wrong to me. But as it turns out, the [01:08:00] only thing that could keep me going, the places that I wanted to go was like sugar. And as soon as I started eating sugar again, it was like, oh, I feel way better. So I do. Mm-hmm. I think that's a data point in like intensity versus, I don't know, duration maybe.

So.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think when you get into these longer things, like for someone who's trained the way you have and just done this, there's some sort where probably incredible fat oxidation rates. So yeah. I, dude, I bet. Mm-hmm. I would imagine it's probably changed a little bit. Yeah. I just got on metabolic car tests, they'll tell you since I started working with Precision and I'm actually like, okay, I need to like, not get fired from this company.

So I actually have to like fuel on my runs now. But I would say if you'd tested me like two years ago Yeah, I bet my bad oxidation would be off the charts. 'Cause who runs a hundred Mile Race and wins it with No, that's, [01:09:00] yeah. Nanas. So yeah, I'm sure it is. And I'm, I assume that only helps me.

Yeah, but now it's gotta be right. What also helps me is eating more food. So, so yeah, pretty much during Cocodona mm-hmm. My fueling strategy consists of just going ahead and eating something right. Like right now. And I did that 50 miler that I was talking about. One of the things that I really wanted to focus on was like trying to actually eat.

I tried to eat two things an hour. That was my goal. So I had my little snacks in my vest with me and I was like, okay, it's been an hour. Like I needed to have, I ate my two things and I would try to finish a bottle that had calories and electrolytes in it. And I would try to finish those, I guess it was about every hour.

I would try to finish one bottle of calories and one bottle of water an hour. And just having that as my by the time I get to the next aid station, I should be, I should need to read mm-hmm. Replenish all my stuff. Made it really easy.[01:10:00] 

Yeah,

It's a great way to offload that cognitive side of things too. 'cause if you're just thinking about it, this is what I have and I have to finish it by then you're just doing it and then someone else is doing the thinking for you. Checking. I'm so much you don't wanna be doing any thinking at hour 48.

Don't, I just wanna be out there having fun. Like I don't wanna think about my pace or my heart rate mm-hmm. Or my, like how many, oh, it's been 30 minutes, I need 30 grams of carbs. I don't wanna do any of that. I just want, I just wanna run and I want to be able to like, alright, well everything I have on me needs to be gone the next time I see my crew.

And that is enough for me to get it all to happen. Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah. Make the hard, boring stuff intuitive so that you can focus all your mental energies on the phone. So that, yeah. Sorry. I probably have weird answers because I feel like you're very scientific with your approach. Awesome. I'm like, I dunno. I just eat potatoes. No, that's great. But I guess it all gets, yeah, it all [01:11:00] gets you to the same place.

Yeah. It's working. It's working. I love to see them, yes. Yeah. Yeah. So are you, so you're running with Norta this year? Yeah. What's your go-to trail shoe right now? Or, I'm sure you have more than one I'm wearing, or maybe this, can you tell us what you're gonna wear at Coca Donut?

Is that, or is that so to it? I'm just gonna fuse it to my foot. Yeah, it's, I Okay. Yeah. I'm afraid for everybody. 'Cause it is, it's such a, I, my favorite shoe prior to that was the 0 0 2 which is not a common answer. And I still love that chew. I promise I still love that shoe uhhuh.

But as far as I don't know what it is about the oh five five, but like it has this built-in Gator, so it's oh, I don't have to think about this. I just have crap that is not gonna get in my shoes now and I don't have to do anything extra. So that's really great. I don't know what it is about and I'm not a tech person, I'm sorry, but like the foam I guess is, it feels different than their other shoes.

I guess it's closest to the 0 [01:12:00] 0 5 maybe. But it's just very responsive and so it is hard to run slow in that shoe. Mm-hmm. And like I can be putting out very little effort and be like dropping my friends on like a casual run. It's a dangerous shoe. I'm really excited to continue trying it out.

I've only, I've done, I think three runs in them and every single time I'm like, oh, I love this shoe. So. So it's a cool shoe. And what I really like about Norta is that their uppers do not ever, I have a pair that has almost a thousand miles on them, and the upper looks brand new, so it's not getting any holes in it.

So dirt and sticks and crap isn't getting in there. They're just really durable shoes. So yeah I'm excited about everybody getting their hands on the 0 5 5. I think it's, I think it's gonna be a cool shoe for the public to get. Like I would probably it's fantastic on the trails. I would probably do a speed workout in it and be one of the faster ones.

'Cause it's just [01:13:00] so good at everything that I've tried to put on it so far. So yeah. I'm just gonna fuse it to my foot. Yeah. Yeah. But in order to not feel, there you go. Well, Coco can look out for that. It's coming. I like, there's ones I like. I love the two. The five is good as well.

But yeah the 55 I'm, yeah it's very cool.

Awesome. Well, Rachel, it's been a blast to chat with you and hear a little bit about what you're thinking and planning, but before I let you go, I, if you wanna let the listeners know where they can find you on social media websites or anything like that, is just my name. I've got links. I have a Substack and a WordPress that I've had since 2000, probably 16, maybe even before that.

So I've had that one for a really long time. And then I've got a column in Ultrarunning Magazine called Dots From Mile 90. So that, yeah, I've got my own column now. It's pretty [01:14:00] cool. Yeah, so, so yeah, those are the, oh, awesome. I guess I'm on Facebook, but don't find me there. And then Strava, you can follow me on Strava, so yeah.

Yeah, dude. Thanks for having me on.