Episode 502: Backyard Ultra Records & Recovery | Phil Gore
Phil Gore holds the World Best mark for the Backyard format, completing 119 “yards” for a total of 495.83miles. He recently completed a personal project, called Project 168, where he aimed to see if he would be able to last 168 yards (700 miles). He ended up tapping out at 152 yards (633.75 miles). We discussed this project, what the limiters were, how they have created a longer recovery, and what direction the Backyard Ultra World is going, and how his event raised nearly $300,000 for Telethon, a Western Australian appeal that supports sick, vulnerable, and disadvantaged kids and their families. You can contribute here: philgore.com.au
Phil: philgore.com.au | IG: @phil.gore.ultrarunner
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Episode Summary:
Phil Gore on Project 168, recovery, and backyard ultras
Phil is still the backyard ultra world record holder at 119 yards. Project 168 was a solo attempt to see how far he could go without a last-one-standing format. He stopped at 152 yards (not an official WR).
The event raised nearly $300,000 for Telethon (WA charity for sick/disadvantaged kids). Donations were still open at the time of recording via philgore.com.au.
Recovery
Hardest recovery of his career. Previously he could often run a parkrun the next day and had never been off running more than 2–3 weeks.
Developed a hematoma that became infected; diagnosis was delayed across multiple doctors. Required surgery to drain it. Expected 6–8 weeks off running (already 3 weeks out at recording).
No regrets. He wanted to find his actual limit rather than finish with more in the tank, as happens when you win a backyard as last one standing.
What stopped him
Going in, he expected sleep deprivation (7 nights vs previous 5) to be the limiter. It wasn’t. Cognition stayed good; no hallucinations or delirium.
The limiter was physical: repeated downhill shock on one hill section over days, which he thinks overloaded the quad.
Night 6 he lost some sleep because laps slowed (10 min rest instead of 15).
Training takeaways
More consistent gym work (leg strength); gym is usually the first thing he drops.
More specific downhill running in training (currently he often walks down after hill intervals).
In-race: start walking some downhills earlier (maybe every other lap) instead of only when it already hurts. Mix running up / walking down to vary muscle use.
Course design
Chose a loop near home (~6.7–6.9 km, slightly long on purpose) with a couple of real hills and a sand section rather than a perfectly flat “manufactured” course.
Wanted a legitimate, transferable mark people could chase—not “he only did it because the course was easy.”
Psychology of 152
Hitting a hard limit (instead of 168 while still looking fresh) may make the number feel chaseable rather than intimidating.
Hopes it stops the pattern of records being beaten by only 1–3 yards, then everyone packing it in. SAT champs and Melbourne Front Yard could see bigger jumps if people keep going past 119–120 knowing 152 has been done.
Protocols he still uses
Sleep: Same system since his third backyard. Faster night laps for 3-in-a-row micro-naps (~15–20 min), then one slower “reset + nutrition” lap. Repeat. ~2–2.5 hours total sleep per night. Missing that sleep is when he gets loopy.
Feet: Wash every ~12 hours (sunrise shower + pre-night). Scribble/butter, fresh shoes/socks, Creepers toe socks. Prep calluses 1–2 weeks out. First blister in a long time on this event.
Nutrition: Nutritionist writes the plan; he just executes so he doesn’t think during the event. First two nights more gels (maple gels are his “always works” food) to manage usual early nausea. Appetite and food variety increase from day 3 onward (including meat pies). Crew handles mid-event adjustments.
Bigger backyard-ultra issues
Rules are still thin and live mostly as Laz Facebook comments. Gray areas: high-fives, phones, media running alongside, random fans jumping in, “assistance.” He’d like clearer, IAU-style specificity while keeping common sense—especially official media exemptions (high-vis, time-limited).
Phones: Laz has said crew comms are OK, but it’s not in a formal rulebook and hard to police.
Uncrewed category: Likes it as an optional twist or separate events, not a replacement. Crew is part of what makes the experience shared and enjoyable. People already sometimes start uncrewed and pick up spare crew late. Self-waking and food logistics would be the hard parts (alarms, cold-soak food, shallower sleep because you don’t fully trust you’ll wake).
Who he’s watching
Lukash (Poland) — former 116 WR, still looks strong at 114–116 hours and can still run ~45-min laps. They’re targeting Melbourne Front Yard Ultra together (May), along with Meg Eckert, Sarah Perry, and others who’ve gone 80–100+.
Six-day racing
Wants to try a 6-day and go for the record. Thinks backyard-style frequent short sleeps (tweaked: e.g. 30 min every 2 hours instead of 10 min every hour, slightly longer loops) could work better than the traditional “big block then crash” approach.
Zach’s bet: first to 700 miles in 6 days (~115+ miles/day).
What’s next
SAT champs in ~4 weeks: unlikely to start given recovery.
Focus is full recovery first, then Melbourne Front Yard (live stream + stacked field).
Instagram: phil.gore.ultrarunner
Site: philgore.com.au
Timestamps:
0:00:00 Introduction
0:02:19 Welcome Back and Backyard Ultra Growth
0:04:45 Project 168: A Personal Challenge
0:08:37 Recovery and Limits: The Aftermath of Project 168
0:12:39 Training Insights: Preparing for the Next Challenge
0:16:20 Designing the Loop: Course Strategy and Psychology
0:21:06 Setting Benchmarks: The Impact on Competitors
0:24:46 Nutrition and Foot Care: Strategies for Endurance
0:29:04 Sleep Protocols: Maximizing Recovery During Events
0:33:30 The Future of Backyard Ultras: Growth and Governance
0:42:04 The Future of Backyard Ultras
0:45:53 Navigating Rule Ambiguities
0:49:26 The Role of Media in Events
0:53:28 Exploring Uncrewed Categories
0:59:32 The Dynamics of Crew Support
01:05:26 Rivalries and Future Competitions
01:08:26 Aiming for the Six-Day Record
Transcript
Zach Bitter (02:19)
All right, Phil, welcome back to the podcast. I'm excited to chat with you again.
Phil (02:22)
All right.
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Zach Bitter (02:25)
Yeah, it's one of those funny things with the backyard ultras. I had you on a little over a year ago, and a lot has happened since then in the backyard world, but you're still the backyard ultra world record holder at the moment with the hundred and nineteen yards. I'm really excited to kind of hear your perspective on how the sport has kind of grown in that little over a year's time and also chat a bit about
Your project one sixty-eight, which we were chatting a bit beforehand, isn't an official world record, but it's a very interesting project that I think a lot of people in the Backyard Ultra Scene were excited to see based on just the nature of these events and how normally you need at least two people to see how far you can go. But there's really nothing stopping you from just trying to see how far you can go on your own.
Phil (03:12)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, a lot has happened since we last spoke. But yeah, obviously the biggest thing for me, is this project one six eight and I'm I'm really happy with even though I didn't get to the one six eight, I'm pretty happy with how the whole event played out and yeah, just the amount that we raise for charity as well is is pretty cool.
Zach Bitter (03:35)
Yeah, it was fun to follow along because it was there you guys were all putting out like a bunch of content along the way. So there was all sorts of stuff going on outside of just you going around the loop every hour. So that's one of the more interesting things to me about the backyard scene right now is I think we're finding more and more interesting ways to kind of bring in the online audience to to spectate. And since
It isn't nearly as difficult as a trail race where you're out and sometimes the mountains, remote areas, and coverage is a little more difficult or you need a really big race in order to do it. We get to see a lot more of what's going on sometimes in these events. So it was exciting to see the whole thing play out. But before we jump into the Project 168 specifics and everything that went into that and the preparation and just everything you've been up to since last time we chatted, maybe we kick things off from
the much more recent stuff, which to the degree you're open and willing to share, I know you've been chatting about it a bit on Instagram, but this one seems like I've been a little bit more of a hurdle to get over with recovery from this than maybe some of the past ones. So how are you doing with the post race hospital visits and all of that?
Phil (04:45)
Yeah,
This has definitely been my hardest recovery, out of any run that I've done. I've always felt I've recovered pretty well and, you know, be able to finish an event and go out and run a park run the next day or something like that. Like I've had a run streak that I've kept going through. Not all of my races but a lot of them.
I think the longest I've been off of running before was maybe two to three weeks. You know, now I don't know, yeah. I'm already three weeks away from running. and it's gonna be a few more weeks yet before I'm back on my feet. But I mean I always knew that coming into this event, you know, if i with a normal backyard, nor normally, not always.
there's been a couple of times where I haven't finished as the last one standing. But when you finish as the last one standing, you still have more to give. Your body's not broken yet. You know, you're not at your max capacity. Whereas going into this one, yes I had it as the the goal of a hundred and sixty eight hours, but it was
always a test to see how far I could go. And I didn't know if I'd get to the one sixty eight but I kind of felt I could find my limit somewhere between that one nineteen and and one sixty eight and yeah, that's what I c yeah, I kinda wanted to find my limit. I think if I got to that one sixty eight and still felt good, I would be like, Well, I still don't know what my limit is. and yeah, so I think yeah, coming from winning backyards and not finding the limit
I kind of wanted to get to that space. So I always knew coming into it that it was gonna be a risk that I could run until I break myself. which is what I've done. yeah, ended up having a hematoma which got infected, got bounced around a few different doctors before actually figured out what was going on. So, I mean, it wasn't great that it kinda wasn't diagnosed straight away and
there was probably a bit more time used up trying to figure out what the actual problem was. But once we worked out what it was, yeah, had to go in for surgery and get it drained out and yeah, now I've got a bit of a road of recovery ahead of me. But yeah, no regrets at all of what I've done with one six eight. Like, someone asked me before, like if I knew that this would happen, would I still have done it.
But I think the thing with these sort of events is the reason that we do is because we don't know what's gonna happen and there is that unknown factor. Like if they told me going into it, you're gonna get to one fifty two and you're gonna, you know, get this hematoma and you're gonna have surgery and be out of running for six to eight weeks. I think yeah, just knowing that
you're gonna get to one fifty two that's taken the mystery away already. So it's not even about the surgery and all that. It's like we go into these events because yeah, we wanna find out what we can do and sometimes there's a price to pay for what we can do, but that's all right. It's all you know, all stuff that I can learn from and yeah, it just shows that like I really left it all out there. Like I've I can be satisfied knowing
you know, I I pushed it to my absolute limit and I'm not sitting here thinking, maybe I could have got to one sixty eight, it's like, Well, no, I had this infected hematoma, there's no way I was gonna get there so Yeah, it is it is what it is. I mean it's not great now sitting here in recovery, but yeah, still so proud of what I achieved and yeah, I wouldn't change anything.
Zach Bitter (08:37)
Yeah. Yeah. It is one of those things where I think you can walk away safely thinking, okay, at least on that particular event or project that you found your absolute limit and there's really no second guessing it. I am kind of curious too, because I've given this a lot of thought over the last maybe two years since the backyard started getting popular and I started following it as a fan and just a spectator, it's just like there's these different variables that you kind of need to keep.
staying on top in order to keep going in these things like your nutrition, your hydration, just your physical breakdown, sleep deprivation, know, all sorts of different stuff. Was there a variable going into Project 168 that you were like, this is the one that concerns me the most? What do I think if something would stop me early or would be the most likely to end essentially that stood out to you beforehand? Was it something like, yeah, my body literally
Breaks down and I can't move anymore? Or was it like sleep deprivation, hydration, or did anything stand out to you beforehand that you answered a question about?
Phil (09:41)
yeah, so going into it, I thought sleep deprivation would be the biggest thing. You know, I've done five nights before, this was going to go into seven nights. So another whole yeah, a whole more two nights. You know, my body's normally held up pretty well and when I've done these events before where I've done hundred and fourteen, a hundred and nineteen, I've kind of felt pretty good at the end and felt like I could keep going, like in terms of my body.
So yeah, I wasn't expecting that it would be, you know, a breakdown in my leg that would stop me. I was thinking that sleep deprivation would be the more likely thing. but actually towards the end, even though my body stopped me, I still felt like the sleep deprivation wasn't an issue. I w I was getting
I felt like I was getting enough sleep in the first five nights. When I look back at the data I see that the sixth night my lap times were a bit slower and I was missing out on some sleep. so, you know, getting ten minutes a lap instead of fifteen minutes a lap.
But I actually felt like in terms of my mind and like my cognition, I felt pretty aware of everything that was happening, like I wasn't, you know, getting delirious or having hallucinations or anything like that. So I think of my sleep, I like it if my body had held up, I think yeah, I still could have kept going to that one sixty eight without sleep being an issue.
But yeah, it just so happened this time it was the body. And yeah, I've I've kind of yeah, now that it's happened once I've kind of got a you know, a bit of an idea of what to do next time and, you know, know the warning signs a bit more and
I think a lot of it's probably just gonna be I need to strengthen that quad muscle. it wasn't a hilly course, but there was this one hill in the back section of the of the day course that I think just coming down the back side of that and running down that hill probably just over time, just that repeated shock to my quad just yeah, I I think that might have been what what
was a contributing factor, so I think I just need to be yeah, probably a bit more careful on the heels during the event, but then also doing some more downhill running in my training. So there's a few different takeaways from it and yeah, if I do something like this again or even just in a normal event where, you know, we might be pushing that one fifty plus mark,
Yeah, I know some different things that I could do in my training to try and hold that off a little bit more and get a little bit more distance out of myself.
Zach Bitter (12:39)
Yeah, it is an interesting thought because if it's a physical thing that limits your progress, then you sort of go back to the drawing board and think, well, how can I make the area that failed stronger? But then you're also extrapolating that out to five, six days at this point. So it's probably hard to kind of think about, well, what do I actually do to improve that and make it so it doesn't fall apart? And I'm sure you've got some ideas around that. Are you thinking about anything different in your training that would
help prepare for that? Is it gonna be mostly like more specific downhill running work or is there a strength routine or something like that that you're thinking about that might be helpful with that particular area?
Phil (13:16)
Yeah, I think I'd probably need to spend a bit more time in the gym. Like I do, I do get in the gym. But it's not a priority for me. You know, if I'm having a busy week or I've got a few things on or I'm picking up extra shifts at work, the gym is normally the first thing to go. Like with my running, like no matter what, each day I'll get my running done. But with the gym I just don't really enjoy it as much, so it's harder for me to stick to a routine with that.
so I think that's probably probably my biggest area that I can improve on is just being more consistent with that gym work and focusing on those leg strengthening exercises. In terms of hills, I do a lot of hill-like interval work where I'm sprinting up the hills but then I'm just walking back down. So like I'll still get downhill running when I go for my like long trail runs and, you know, I've got the ups and the downs and that, but
When I'm actually doing my interval sessions, it's like sprinting up the hill and then a nice easy walk back down. So I could probably be a bit more specific with including some downhill you know repetitions instead of just focusing on the uphill.
Zach Bitter (14:29)
Do you think there'd be any obviously you're dealing with pacing here and if you start going too slow in very runnable sections, that can start to compromise other things that you need to be doing between laps. But I was wondering about it because downhill running is going to be the most eccentric loading movement you're doing out there. So I wonder if there'd be any value in during the race itself, picking and choosing your battles with the running down versus walking down the hill in the race itself. If that would be something that could potentially
limit the damage to some degree and allow you to go further at the end of the day.
Phil (15:01)
Yeah, and I did actually start walking the downhills towards the end, just because it was putting more pressure on my quad. but I think I definitely need to include that earlier on, like maybe every second lap I'm walking down the hills.
Yeah, because at the start you don't notice it, you're just like, this is easy, like gravity's doing half the work here, like you know, I'll just you know, this is an easy section to run, so I'll run down this hill. And yeah, you don't notice it lap to lap, but it's just one of those things that it just gradually builds up and when you're out there for yeah, like six days, that's all gonna add up. So I think being a bit more conscious from the start of not running down every single hill, and taking it a bit easier.
And you know, even if I would always walk the uphills, I think even running up some of the hills and walking the downhills from early on could make a difference. And you're just using you know, different parts of your muscles and, you know, different
stride length and stuff like that. So you're using your muscles in f different ways and yeah, if you can vary that over the event rather than yeah, you're just using the same stride and everything the whole time. I think you're gonna get a bit more longevity out of your body.
Zach Bitter (16:20)
Yeah, I think I think you kind of alluded a bit to the answer of my next question with your answer to this one, but I was gonna ask you about what the thought process was behind designing the loop because being that this was a project you set up, you could essentially to some degree design the loop however you want it. And you chose to have some hills on there versus like a perfectly flat loop. I'm guessing that was because you wanted that variability for different muscle contractions versus having that very uniform kind of mechanic if it was all flat.
Phil (16:49)
Yeah, that was part of it. When I like, the course that I chose is quite close to home and it just turns out that the lap around the lake is exactly six point seven. well well close enough to six point seven that I could make a backyard course out of it. and when I run that course like just a single loop on a normal day, it doesn't really feel like it's hilly.
There's really only a couple of hills along the back section and most of it's flat. but once you've done the course a few times in a row, you start to realise actually these are pretty significant hills. but yeah, I didn't. I didn't want to have the course super easy. you know, I e even the course length itself i it ended up being each time I I ran it, it it was probably between
You know, it was around the six point eight instead of the six point seven and some laps had even measured up to six point nine. I don't think I ever got anything below six point seven 'cause I know you get GPS variability and all that, but I wanted to make sure the course was a little bit over rather than bang on or a little bit under. Because whatever
benchmark I kinda set. Like I want this to be a mark that people can chase. And I didn't want it to be like, you know, he's got the perfect course, perfect conditions, everything's going right for him. So that's why he got to one fifty two. I want it to be like, well this could have been in any backyard in the world and, you know, he's been able to get this number. So that's a number that we can chase. Yeah. I and also for myself
like when comparing to my other PBEs. I didn't wanna look at this number and go, yeah, I got that number but, you know, I had the perfect course and the perfect conditions and all of that, like everything was manufactured. I just I wanted t it to be as similar to a normal backyard as possible when
I I know that a lot of run directors will choose their course based on you know, they want it as flat and as easy as possible, but I mean you're always gonna get, you know, variabilities and like each course has kind of got their little quirks about it that, you know, even if it's a dead flat course, like for example, one here in Perth that we do is is Herdys and it's it's dead flat. There's maybe five meters of elevation. But the challenge with that course is it's done in March where it's quite warm and there's a lot of exposure.
Section, so you're dealing with that heat. So yeah, even though the course is easy, the conditions itself aren't really that easy. So, yeah, I've I've yeah, I just didn't want to manufacture the perfect course. I thought having you know a little hill section, I you know, I had a little sand section. again, like having the course that's slightly, a little bit longer.
just meant that whatever result that I got, I knew that it was like, you know, that's that's a legitimate result. It's not like I got this result because, you know, the course was a hundred meters shorter or the course was dead flat or I just picked a time of year where I had the best conditions. It's just yeah. It was just like yeah, just like r running any other backyard.
Zach Bitter (20:06)
Yeah, that's a really good point in terms of informing yourself and the rest of the backyard community about what's possible, having it match at least characteristically as close to possible as the as most of these events makes a ton of sense setting it up that way. So there's no doubt now that you've kind of put a target up there that I think people are probably thinking about. Had have you thought about just the psychology of that for both yourself as well as
People that are going to go up against you, do you think that's something where it's gonna be seen by your other competitors as all right, now we know where Phil essentially has pushed himself, and maybe that's works in your favor because it is such a big number, or maybe it gives them a little bit of hope because I think okay, there's there's some s form of human in him right now that we can tell there's an end point at least. I'm curious if you've given any thoughts to kind of the psychology for yourself and
other runners when you know that you have this project behind you.
Phil (21:06)
Yeah,
well I think if I'd got to the one sixty eight and still felt good, yeah, it probably would have intimidated people a little bit. They go, well this guy, we know he can get to one sixty eight and still be looking really fresh. But because I actually got to a limit, I got to that one fifty two and I'd broke down, it's like, well these people now can look at that and go like, Okay, he might be able to run really far, but we know he can't run forever. and I think yeah, like going into this
Yes, it was a personal challenge for myself to see how far I could go personally. But I also wanted to set a benchmark that people would chase. Because it's interesting when you look at the world record progression, it's always just beaten by like one or two laps, like there's never a huge jump of twenty laps or thirty laps. And I think people know what the record is and they kind of have that as a target.
And once they get there it's like their body or their mind starts giving up and it's like, Okay, cool, we've got the record, now we just need to wrap this race up and go home. So, yeah, like when I got the record, the first time, you know, when I ran one two, that was only one yard above the previous record of one one.
And then when I got the one nineteen that was three yards ahead of the one sixteen. So my hope is kind of like people will look at this and go, This is a number that's achievable. This is a number that we can chase and yes, it's gonna be pretty significant when people get to the world record of a hundred and nineteen and beat that. But I want them to still be thinking in their head, like, we've got to this one nineteen, one twenty with a new record.
But I know what can be done. I know what is humanly possible. I know what yeah. I know what Phil has done. So let's not start wrapping this up yet. You know, there's still at least another thirty yards here that we can do. And maybe we will see a big jump in the world record. And we've got SAT champs coming up, so that's gonna be very interesting. I know we've got some pretty strong teams around.
I know traditionally in the past with the satellite champs the Belgians have been a really strong team and you know, they've kind of got to that record lap and then maybe done one or two more. and
and kind of just just called it but I wonder if that'll change this time and you know they might have a few people get to that one twenty mark and instead of just calling it they might yeah just go, Well, we can still go a bit more. We still know that there's this one fifty two which is, you know, it's not an official record or anything, but it's just something that has been shown to have been done. So yeah, maybe that'll inspire them to push a little bit more but, you know, time will tell. We'll
we'll see. But I like to look at it. It's like there's nothing, you know, superhuman about me. There's nothing special about me. Like I just love running and I'm just consistent with my training. So if I can do this number, I don't see why there's any reason why other people can't run this number. So yeah, I I've got I've got faith that
The record will be broken soon and you know, we'll be able to see that one fifty plus happen in events and whether that happens at SAT champs or within the next year or the next couple of years, I think it's a benchmark that we'll get to eventually.
Zach Bitter (24:46)
Yeah, it's certainly interesting times with the Backyard Ultras and everything that's going on with the record chasing and the big numbers we're seeing up. I did want to ask you a bit about some of the processes that you use on these events to help keep yourself in one piece and head out for another lap. Because when I had you on a little over a year ago and then just talking to quite a few other people kind of in the space.
I still think like your setup and your approach is maybe the most dialed and the most kind of thought out with respect to I'm gonna put myself in a position to be out here multiple days from now versus kind of flying a little bit more by the seat of your pants and hoping for the best and see where you land type of an approach. so I have a few variables that you have mentioned to me that you would that I thought were really interesting that I'd love to hear if you're still doing the same way or if you've changed those in any shape or form between last time we chatted and now and
One of them was the sleep protocol, if I remember right, you would run a little bit slower during the day when you were less likely to be taking naps and sort of conserve a little more energy there. But then at night you would do faster laps to be able to take these kinds of micro naps consistently at the end of each lap when it would normally be nighttime and when you'd likely be sleeping outside of these events. Is that the same sort of format you're currently using for sleep or have you adjusted that in any way?
Phil (26:07)
Yeah, I've pretty much been using the same sleep strategy for probably since my third backyard. I think I kind of dialed in this strategy and it's just worked for me ever since. so yeah, faster laps at night and slower laps during the day. And so at night it'll be three in a row where I'll do three fast laps and have three sleeps, and then that fourth lap will be a slower lap
Don't worry about sleep but just focus on getting the nutrition in. So I'll do that three times. So three lots of three sleeps followed by one slower lap. and I found that that system worked really well because I don't want to run every night lap fast because number one I won't have time to get the nutrition that I need if I'm just focusing all the time on sleep.
And number two, I don't want to burn myself out. So I find three in a row is that sweet spot of being able to do three fast laps in a row. But then I do need to have that one lap of, you know, slowing down, resetting a bit, you know, having a little bit more walking. So those systems worked really well for me and yeah, it gives me about, you know, fifteen minutes at you know, at the top end maybe twenty minutes worth of sleep.
And when you add that up over the over the course of the night, you know, I I'm getting maybe two, two and a half hours worth of sleep, which, yeah, isn't a lot, but I mean it's the most that I'm gonna get and you know, every every bit helps.
Zach Bitter (27:43)
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's almost like over the course of as far as you're taking these events, it's like you've banked in a full night's sleep in there in total, amongst all of
Phil (27:51)
Yeah.
Zach Bitter (27:51)
it, which I'm sure is one of the reasons why you're able to push as far as you are.
Phil (27:55)
Yeah. And I notice it as well with my cognition and, you know, my mindset and stuff on the events where I haven't been able to get as much sleep because I've been running slower or for whatever reason.
And I'm not getting that sleep. I find that's when I start to get a bit more like loopy, a bit more delirious or a bit more confused. Whereas yeah, the events where I'm getting that, you know, fifteen minutes sleep each lap, I'm pretty, you know, cognizant, I'm pretty aware of what's going on.
Yeah, not getting into that kind of confused state or yeah, I and I I very well, I I don't think I've really ever had hallucinations. and yeah, I think that's just a testament to
testament to yeah how how well I sleep and you know, when that sun comes up after getting through the night and I've had those little blocks of sleep and yeah, I just feel refreshed and just ready to start a new day and it kinda it almost sometimes it almost feels like I've had a full night's sleep and just yeah, just ready to tackle that day.
Zach Bitter (29:04)
Yeah, it's really interesting how that all plays out. And I think you've answered a lot of questions for us with respect to sleep protocols for these longer stretches. The one of the other things I found really interesting last time you were on was your foot care protocol, where you I think if I remember right, it was every eight hours you'll take your shoes and socks off and just wash your feet just to make sure there isn't any debris or anything in there that could be kind of causing an abrasion and therefore a blister. Is that still the same process you're using?
Roughly every eight hours you're doing that footwash.
Phil (29:34)
Yeah, so it's about every twelve hours. So normally around sunrise I'd have a shower so my feet are getting clean then and then yeah, before around sunset, like before starting the night loops, I'll wash my feet there as well. There might be other times like say I'm running like a sandy course or something and I feel like I'm getting sand in my shoes or I've yeah, or my feet aren't feeling great, I might have an extra foot bath in there.
but yeah, generally generally it's every twelve hours and yeah, I mean th this event I actually did get a blister.
But I mean that's the first bliss I've had in such a long time. Like the events where I've done hundred and nineteen hours, hundred and fourteen hours, you know, all of those big events that I've done. I've had no blissers at the end and I just put that down to yeah, my foot care, you know, getting them washed every twelve hours. I'm using the scribbles and I butter on them. putting on fresh shoes and socks. yeah, using the creeper's toe socks. so there's all these and e even like
leading into the event, like my foot prep probably like a week or two weeks leading into the event, I'm you know, making sure I shave down those calluses and moisturizing them and, you know, just getting them in in the best condition that they can be for race day. So all of that stuff that I do, yeah, I put down yeah, just I mean, you gotta look after your feet because they're the things that are taking you hundreds of Ks. And like I've looked at some people's feet at the at the end of some of these events
And I'm like, how did you even run on those feet? but i it it
Zach Bitter (31:15)
Yeah.
Phil (31:16)
can be something that puts people out of an event prematurely. Like you might be feeling strong and like all your muscles are feeling good and you've got your sleep and your nutrition on track. But yeah, if your feet are all blistered and hurting, it's it yeah, it can stop your race. So, that's just something I've always been pretty pretty strict with looking after.
Zach Bitter (33:03)
Yeah, it's really smart. And it's like you said, it's like you don't want to get pulled out for something unrelated to your fitness or your tolerance to sleep deprivation or nutrition things that are like, you know, what I think the core things that people are oftentimes thinking about. So kind of watching where those pinch points could kind of flare up and making sure you never get there is just genius in my opinion. So I was excited that you've been kind of pioneering that approach for other people to hopefully save a few blisters out there.
With other people trying these things. I know I've shared it with a few of my coaching clients who've been trying to do these things, like mixing in some foot washing and stuff like that. The other thing I wanted to ask you about was your nutrition routine. So honestly, I can't remember exactly what you had shared with us the last time with what you did, but I do think before this one you had laid out kind of what your strategy was ahead of time. So maybe just share with us like
what that was and then how that ended up playing out. I imagine there were probably some adjustments when you get out there as long as you were based on how you're feeling and stuff like that. But how did that side of things go?
Phil (34:08)
Yeah, so my nutrition plan that's evolved over the years as well and like each event it's it's probably very similar to the one before, but then we'll put in a few little tweaks and changes and it might depend on things like where the event is, what time of year it is, like is it gonna be hot, is it gonna be cold? you know, if I'm travelling overseas I've got to consider what food am I gonna get over there, what food can I bring with me?
What I've noticed in my last few events is I've I've gotten a bit of nausea in the first couple of nights, but then my body seems to adjust after that. So going into this event we did change some things on those first two nights. So instead of having the normal foods that I would use, you know, I just went back to more basic things. So I've been using the maple gels a lot and that's something I've found that my stomach can really tolerate and it's something that
If I do start having nausea in an event or in a training run, you know, the maple gels are the one food I know that I can eat, no matter how I'm feeling. So I probably yeah, the first couple of nights for this event, yeah, I was using more of the gels and less of the, you know, more solid foods.
I still did get nausea, but it wasn't as bad and it didn't happen as early. So if you know, it normally happened maybe around midnight, one o'clock on that first night, whereas this time it wasn't until I think three or four in the morning. So which meant I only had to get through a couple more night laps before the sun came up and when that sun comes up, that's normally when, you know, the nausea starts to correct itself anyway.
And yeah, what I found in my last few events as well is I've actually been the longer the event's gone on, my appetite's been increasing. So we've actually accommodated for that in my plan as well and made sure that yeah, kind of when I'm getting to that third day onwards I'm actually increasing the portion sizes of what I'm having or I'm putting more different things on there. Like I'm actually eating stuff like meat pies.
in, you know, day three and day four, which is not a typical food that you would do . I don't think you have in the US. I certainly couldn't find it when I was over there. But yeah, it is kind of like quite a heavy type of food, like a bit fatty.
You know, the one I went to was like a cheese and jalapeno meat pie, which yeah, most people would think, What , why are you eating that in the middle of a race? But for me it just worked and, you know, I'm getting a lot of calories, a lot of protein and yeah, a lot of stuff that I need. So
yeah, that's something that, you know, I wouldn't be incorporating that on day one, but yeah, for some reason when I get to day three my body's more adjusted and more, I guess, accepting of what I'm actually doing now. And yeah, so I can eat more food and a bigger variety of different foods.
Zach Bitter (37:17)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think the macronutrient variance is probably a little bit more important when you're out there as long as you are than for some of the single day ultras for sure. It's like it's one of those interesting things where we look at carbohydrates as the small fuel tank that you need to be a little bit more on top of. And obviously that retains its its truth, but you're out there for multiple days and your body's burning through fast and you're still demanding some degree of
protein and amino acids and things like that. So y you'd it would make sense that the body would start craving some of that variety over time if you're out there long enough. And it sounds like yours is pretty clear around day three.
Phil (37:58)
Yeah. Well I think yeah, I think if you do if I'm doing a race like a twenty four hour, I can get by on just the simple things like gels and lollies and things like that. But yeah, when it comes to events that go for five days plus, I feel like you kind of need to incorporate the types of food that you'd eat on an everyday basis. You can't get through that whole thing just on your simple sugars. You gotta have more variety.
Zach Bitter (38:24)
Was there like a minimum that you were trying to make sure you got in every lap? Or was it a little bit more loose than that? With respect to just maybe grams of carbohydrate or any sort of targets that you had loosely drawn out?
Phil (38:36)
Yeah, so there were targets and that was all like you know, when we wrote the plan we wrote down exactly what food I was gonna eat and it was all calculated of how many carbs and calories I was gonna be getting.
But to be honest I couldn't tell you what those numbers were because my nutritionist just writes my plan for for me and sends it through to me and I'd just look at her and be like, Yep, that looks all good or, you know, actually can I change this food around here and she'll go and do her thing and so she's got the numbers in her head but I mean it's probably a number that I should know. but honestly she just writes the plan and I just follow it.
Zach Bitter (39:17)
I mean, I would imagine with something like this, there's so much cognitive just demand to prepare and then get organized and then actually execute this. There has to be some amount of like, I'm gonna bring in an expert just to do this so I don't even have to think about it. And then it almost frees your mind up to focus on some of the other things that you're trying to do out there. So if you trust the person and have them draw it up and you don't g go through it with a fine tooth cone, I think that's probably
a benefit in some cases with respect to just your mind being able to just say, Okay, that's done, it's trusted. I don't have to think about it. Just give it to me and I'll eat it.
Phil (39:54)
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
like the more thinking that you can do before the event and the less thinking you have to do during the event, like the better it's gonna go for you. Because yeah, like your brain is the thing that uses the most energy, uses the most calories. So if you're
need to use you know, divert too much energy to your brain to do all of this thinking on the spot, then you're just wasting that energy that could be put to other parts of your body. So yeah, my whole thing is I've had everything planned out beforehand, all the thinking's done, all the calculations are done. When I get to race day I just
Yeah, whatever it says on the plan, that's what I'm gonna do and I don't need to think about it. And if things do need to be adjusted, then that's, you know, down to the crew and the crew will make those adjustments so I don't need to think about it. So there are times when, yeah, I might have not been sticking to what I needed to eat, I might have been eating less and then my crew's giving me a gel to take out with me on the lap and say, Okay, make sure you eat this when you get to halfway and then I don't need to think about it. So I can just take that gel and when
I got to halfway. I'll eat it because that's what my crews told me to do and yeah, come back and yeah, just do the next thing that's on the plan.
Zach Bitter (41:10)
Yeah. That's really interesting. I want to maybe pivot a little bit off of Project 168 and into the Backyard Ultra world as a whole and just ask for some of your thoughts on some of this stuff. One of the interesting things I find with Backyard Ultras is they're relatively new, but they've grown at such a fast pace and they're getting much more popular.
I think if you'd ask Laz like, hey, did you think this was gonna get this big? He'd probably laugh and things say like no. But I mean Laz has had some other big events as well. So maybe he did think it was gonna be. But all that's to say is like it's getting to a point where I think like there's , maybe people are seeking clarity with respect to just the rules and regulations, or does there need to be some sort of governing body that sort of makes these things official?
Do you have any thoughts on that? Cause right now my understanding is that Laz is kind of writing the rules and probably working with people to help and things like that. But what's the future of this look like if it keeps growing? Is there gonna be something that needs to come in that adds a little bit more structure, like a world athletics type of set setup that's specific to the backyard ultra world?
Phil (42:23)
Yeah, I would like to see it be a bit more formalised, I guess. I think in regards to the rules, like he's got the rules written on the website and they're
They're very like simple rules to follow. But when you dive into it it's like, well, is it really that simple? Because you can have a rule written down like no assistance on course. It's like, okay, well that's fair enough. Like no one can hand me anything, you know, I can't use poles, I can't have paces, like that's all assistance. But then, okay, well what about someone cheering? Is that assistance? And you like break it down and
Yeah, like I think there was even like a bit of controversy before about you're not allowed to give a high five because maybe something could be passed within that high five and
So I get what Laz has done and he won. He doesn't want to overcomplicate it and he just wants it to be simple rules that people follow. But then when you have this event in multiple different countries around the world which are all speaking different languages and then you're trying to translate these rules, one person's interpretation could be different to someone else's interpretation. So when you say you like for example, like, okay, so you know you can't have a pacer and it's like
But I think there's a difference between, you know, getting your friend to run alongside you because you're really struggling and you need some help to get through that lap, as opposed to someone running alongside you for thirty seconds to get a video of you to post up to Instagram. Like, there's a big difference in those two scenarios of but by the letter of the law it's like that person
running for thirty seconds alongside you to get a video to put on Instagram, well technically that's pacing, but I think, yeah, it does need to be it it's got to the point where the rules do need to be a little bit more specific and I know that Laz wants to keep it simple but
Yeah, I think I mean like, for example, when I run the twenty four hour race and, you know, there's the world championships, there's rules about how many cones you have to have around the the curve of the four hundred metre track and if there's not enough cones and you need to make sure you've got an official there. You know, the course has to be certified
If you get a record you need to be drug tested. There's all these different things that go into it and every single rule is kind of written down in a way that you read it and it's like, okay, that's clear. There's no kind of room for interpretation with that. so I think, yeah, maybe something like that needs to happen with the backyards and I mean you could just take a page out of the the IAU rule book or the
the Gomu the G O U rule book and kind of just see what they're doing in regards to different things. but it is a bit frustrating when, yeah, someone gets disqualified from an event because they've been handed a phone for two seconds and then they hand the phone back. Like, was that really assistance? Did that really help that runner go further in the event?
So yeah, I think it kinda needs a common sense approach, but at the same time, you know, sometimes some things just need to be really specific and explicitly stated what you can and can't do.
Zach Bitter (45:53)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of that sort of gray area if you don't have a real detailed rule book. I can appreciate wanting to simplify it and making it as black and white as possible, but you're always gonna have some questions around that. And and some uncertainties too, 'cause like what happens if s you know, these things are popular, they're not always in private areas. So
some random person could just jump up and start running with you because they're a fan. And then it's like,
Phil (46:21)
Yeah.
Zach Bitter (46:22)
Is that pacing? It's like you didn't ask them to. You do you , you may have even told them not to. But like, how do you do that? I imagine there would be some sort of official there that would probably take care of that in a USATF or World Athletics or IAU type scenario. But yeah, I mean there's a lot of things that could be like
a little bit goofy with that. And that's a great point too with the content stuff because it's one of those things where I think of the events that have gotten a bunch of public attention and really pushed the sport into new people's presence has been some of the content creation along the way. And these like this format is set up so perfectly for our short intention spans and the predictability of it all where it's like I can kind of just tune in.
Around the hour and now there's gonna be a ton of energy, a ton of content, and then it's gonna be pretty quiet for the next fifty, fifty five minutes and then we're gonna get another dose of that. So it's just set up really well for the spectators. So to some degree it's like I'd love to see that continue or maybe even grow so it is even more inclusive than just or it's more like built out than just that start and finish of every every lap too. But at that point then you almost need like official film like photographers and things like that on course where it's
Not them like favoring any one specific individual, but rather just grabbing content and you start assigning people their own film person they can bring in and then you do kind of have a little bit of a kind of a friend of course, so to speak.
Phil (47:54)
Yeah, and I think so it's those sort of things that need to be written into the rules. So when you say, you can't have paces, there needs to be. I think there needs to be an exception for the media. But you know, it'll have to be official media. You can't just get your mate to come out with a camera and pace you and be like, no, he's filming. If you've got official media for the event, whether it's for social media or for a live stream or whatever, you know, they wear a high vis vest saying media on the back. So when they're
running alongside a runner with a camera, it's it's you know, i we know it's all above board. and yeah, even just having rules around it like yes the media can run with this person but they can't run the whole lap. They can run for one minute or something alongside him. so I think yeah the way that this has grown and you know a lot of events are doing live streaming now and doing their social media
And it's a big part of it and it's really helped the sport grow. It would be nice to have something in the rules to just clarify that yes, this person can run alongside because they are media, so they've got a special exemption. And I mean it happens at Biggs as well. Like there's media people at Biggs that'll run alongside you. So Laz is letting it happen at his events, but yeah, I think that needs to be put into the rules so
Yeah, when it's just just so everyone knows where they stand and when it's happening at events around the world, everyone knows that it's all above board and it's all good.
Zach Bitter (49:26)
Hmm. Yeah. Another interesting thing that I wonder if they'll ever address is like having your own cell phone out there. It is one of those things where for one for one thing, I think it's super entertaining when someone's halfway around this loop and they go live on Instagram. But technically, if we looked at world athletics, that would be illegal because that's like a communication device. And granted, I think if someone's taking a 15 second Instagram video and throwing it up there, they're
You know, that's probably not too sketchy with respect to the spirit of competition. But I mean, then again, someone could open it up and look at the chat feed and they could say, Hey, so and so is looking rough. And then you've just got a piece of information you maybe wouldn't have had if you didn't have that communication device, or, you know, maybe outside of just the Instagram side of things, you can't really police it. And they could be getting on the phone and talking to people and things like that, which could be an advantage over others too. So I'd wonder about like the whole phone side of things, how
How strict or or maybe they are in some of them. Like maybe you could, is that the case in some that they're more strict with that and less than others, or what kind of rules do they even have around it?
Phil (50:34)
Yeah, so that's another one. Yeah, there's not a specific rule about it, but then, you know, you could fall under the assistance rule. Like if I am calling my crews then that assistance but this is the other thing with the rules, like someone might have a question about it and put it on Facebook and then Laz will reply to it with his interpretation of it.
And that's all that we ever see. We just see this one Facebook comment, someone might screenshot it and it gets shared around, but it's not actually then put into the rules. So, like I've definitely seen posts from Laz before saying that communication with your crew is okay and you know, mobile phones are okay.
And I think one of the arguments was like, you know, an event like at Biggs for example, when you do the day course, you run out eight hundred meters and turn around and and run back and you pass your crew and it's like, well, you can talk to your crew then as you pass back through the corral. So if you can talk to them then why can't you talk to them on your phone? I know that there are some events that'll say, No, you can't talk to your crew at all. You can't, you know, talk on your phone.
But then yeah, it's like how do you police that as well? Like if someone's pulling out their phone, are they just changing a song on their Spotify or are they messaging
Zach Bitter (51:55)
Right, yeah.
Phil (51:56)
someone? you know, there's there's plenty of content out there on on Instagram and stuff of people doing selfie videos halfway through a lap and, you know, Laz is never picking up any of those videos and saying, No, you gotta disqualify this person who's been using his phone mid lat
So that's another kind of grey area. But from what Laza said in Facebook comments before, phones are okay to use, it's okay to call back to your crew or message your crew. But again it's probably something that should be explicitly stated. It might be something that's a bit hard to police, but then yeah, I guess you just gotta go on
people's integrity that they're doing the right thing and if it does come up somewhere that, you know, you physically see on the phone talking to their crew or something like that, then you can flag for it. But, yeah, it's just yeah, it is another one of those great areas.
Zach Bitter (53:00)
Yeah, it'll be interesting to see kind of how everything falls as the event keeps growing and more attention and interest gets into it. One other question I had for you that I find personally interesting is the crew in general. Obviously that's a huge value add with respect to getting yourself ready, having resources so you can push these things out here. I'm curious about what your thoughts would be about.
Is the sport big enough to start accommodating different categories where you could have a crude category and an uncrude category? I don't know how familiar with Ball State is, but there used to be a process there where they'd run across the state of Tennessee and it was about 500 kilometers. And they had these different divisions where you could be crude or uncrude. They called it screwed, screwed or crude. And yeah, so and that was always kind of like an interesting aspect about that event where you'd had these people were like, Okay, well, I'm gonna start here and I'm literally gonna
take care of myself the whole way, stop at convenience stores and do whatever I need to do to keep moving. I'd be really interested in a backyard format where there was a no-crew setup. What are your thoughts about that?
Phil (54:07)
Yeah, I think you did a post about this before and I made a comment that it wouldn't be a bad idea because it would r you know, these events are getting really long now and if you had it uncrewed, maybe it would reduce the amount of time. And it's kinda like I think about an event like Javelin where they were throwing the javelin further and further and till it was, you know, getting onto the track.
So then they had to change the weight of the javelin, they had to make it heavier so people couldn't throw it as far. So I kinda feel like yeah, this event's getting longer and longer. We need to maybe change something about the event to make it not go as long. I like I d I don't think it'll change and but I do like the idea of yeah, having a
uncrewed race and, you know, just seeing how far people can go with that and yeah, maybe having a different category for that and seeing if that kind of takes off. Yeah, but I mean for me it's like, yeah, okay, these events are going on pretty long and the crew is a part of that to help it go further. And yeah, like it it it is
Yeah, I don't like it. I do say like, yeah, we should cut the crew out so it doesn't go as long. But for me having the crew there is just a big part of what makes the event enjoyable. Like I'm not out there like I might be running the laps by myself and, you know, or there there are other runners there obviously, but I might run the whole lap and not talk to someone, but then I come back and I've got my crew who I'm familiar with, I can have a good chat.
you know, I've got someone there to share in that experience with so when I achieve these big results or I get a world record,
or just get a P B, I've got someone there to share that with and someone who's been through that with me. So it's not like this is just me that I've gone out and achieved on my own. It's like I've got someone to share it with. So I think the crew is a cool part of it too. Have someone to share in the journey with you. And it's something that you can both work towards together. But yeah, I
Yeah, at the a at the same time I think, yeah, having an uncrewed I w I wouldn't wanna change the event that it's always has to be uncrewed, but I think having a category for that or having specific events and it's like there's people that'll take the backyard format and put their own twist on it. Like they might, you know, have a backyard but they're gonna put in a big, massive hill in the middle. So people are gonna do that event, they're not they might not even be getting over twenty four hours, they might only get to
fifteen or eighteen hours or something and you can't really compare that to a normal backyard because you might have five hundred meters of elevation in there. But it's just another twist on the format. So maybe yeah just throwing in a crewed thing is just like another kind of twist that you can have.
Zach Bitter (57:13)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, with these types of topics, I always ask myself, is this an either-or question, or is this one of those things where we can just have all the fun and do both? And I tend to think like if something gets big enough, you can probably do both. It just takes a little bit of motivation from enough people to get excited about it and demand it or do it themselves and create something. When I mean you think about how big Backyard Ultras got, how quickly they did from just Laz's.
relatively simple idea. It's like to some degree I think, well, if you want it, bring it into life on yourself and things like that, which may put some pressure on me since I've brought that up a few times now. But I
Phil (57:54)
Yeah.
Zach Bitter (57:55)
I have said if I were to do a backyard ultra sooner rather than later, it would be I'd get drawn in quicker by an uncrewed option. So maybe
Phil (58:02)
Yeah.
Zach Bitter (58:03)
I need to do my own event and instead of talking about it, be about it.
Phil (58:08)
Yeah. Well there's nothing stopping you from going into an event and
not having a crew. Like you might not have a crude category
Zach Bitter (58:15)
Exactly. Yeah.
Phil (58:16)
where you can be the last one standing who's not crude, but at the end of the day, like well, for me at least, the reason I do these races is just to test myself and to see what I can do. So if that was if I wanted to go and do an event and see how far I could go not being crude
I wouldn't. I don't have to wait for an event to happen where they have a no crew rule. I can just go into any event and be uncrewed and yeah, just see how far I go. And then yeah, maybe there might be some unofficial records pop up and yeah, you could go into an event and be uncrewed and I don't know, run sixty hours and just be like, Well, has anyone run further than this without crew before?
And then yeah, you might get other people come after you and be like, well, you know, I saw Zack did sixty hours on crude, I'm gonna see if I can get further than that. And so you might get these unofficial records start popping up.
but yes it's a good concept and yeah, if you want it to happen you can just yeah, you can go and do it. You can yeah, either create your own event where you have an uncrewed category or or have the whole thing uncrewed or you can just go run in an event and not have a crew. Like there's no there's no rule saying you have to have a crew.
Zach Bitter (59:28)
Yeah.
Phil (59:29)
it's just that's just an option.
Zach Bitter (59:32)
Ma maybe it's hard to tell from your perspective that you're out there doing these things, but do you notice that a lot of people do them without a cruise when you go to the events?
Phil (59:41)
I have seen people do it without crews and generally like you know, I think, you know, they can get over twenty four hours, thirty hours. but then the ones I've I've seen events where they've started on crude and they've gotten quite far and then they're like, hang on, I'm actually getting pretty far here. You know, I
Zach Bitter (1:00:03)
Someone help me.
Phil (1:00:04)
might need a bit of help now. I might be at the point now where I need some help.
But then by that point there's a lot of other runners who have dropped out and so there's spare crew hanging around from you know, they don't have a runner to crew anymore. So you generally get people jumping on and and helping out with crew towards the end, especially if they're you know getting into like the last four or five standing or something. And there might even just be a shout out from the RD. It's like, we've got Joe over here who's you know, he's been running up until now without crew, but you know, we're getting
to the pointy end he might need someone to help. Is there anyone he wants to jump on and be his crew? So I've seen that happen as well. I've seen people start uncrude but then by the end that they're crude. But yeah, I don't know if we might start seeing more people who just specifically want to go and refuse any help from anyone and just see how far they can go on their own.
Zach Bitter (1:01:01)
Yeah, the strategizing would be interesting because I mean I guess at this point it's probably unlikely that someone's done uncrude and gotten into like the real sleep deprivation side of things. Maybe it has. And I think that would be interesting because if you thought like, okay, I'm gonna do this uncrude, but I'm planning on trying to push into like day three or day four or something like that, you probably still wanna be putting together a strategy like you have where you're getting some of those nighttime
s like micro naps and then it's like, do you have an alarm clock at your little tent so you can quickly turn it on when you get there and take a nap and hope it's loud enough to wake you up? I could see a lot of interesting almost accidents occurring where people don't make the start because they don't wake up or something like that that would add some intrigue to that variable.
Phil (1:01:51)
Yeah, you'd have to be super organized and yeah, like if it was me I would have all the alarms preset in my phone for whichever day and time I need it to go off. I think the other big factor is your food, like what food you 're gonna eat because it's gotta be food that needs no time to prepare or you're doing like cold soaked food. So at the start of a lap, you know, you add cold water to your meal or whatever and then you just let it soak.
for forty five minutes while you're out there running and then come back in and you're eating it cold rather than, you know, waiting for a kettle to boil or anything like that. So yeah, like it's yeah, it would be interesting. Yeah. And then I don't know, could you ask a fellow runner to say, Hey, just
you know, when you walk past my tent on the way to the corral, can you just make sure I'm out of bed? But then is that
Zach Bitter (1:02:47)
Right, yeah.
Phil (1:02:48)
okay, so you don't have a crew but now you're getting assistance from someone else, does that count as having a crew? I dunno, it is just I guess it depends on your interpretation of it.
Zach Bitter (1:02:57)
I like pacing.
Yeah. Yeah. There'd be some interesting dynamics. Or I mean, you could even have it where I think fans should be allowed at these things. So if you had no crew and then you had enough fans there, if someone's sleeping in their tent and ever and it's getting close and it's clear, like maybe their phone's going off and they're not waking up to it. People just shouting at them, maybe throw something
Phil (1:03:21)
Yeah.
Zach Bitter (1:03:22)
at them.
Phil (1:03:23)
Yeah.
Zach Bitter (1:03:24)
Like where do you draw the line on that? That'd be interesting to see. you know, the y an interesting format for that would also be with like two minutes prior if you had like a really loud buzzer or something that went off that would basically wake up anyone who's sleeping. That would just kind of be a last call that is kind of preset for every lap. I mean, tac that would be like I think cause that would be kind of like a uniform benefit maybe versus
benefiting one person and not another. But then I guess you do get in that category of how much are we intruding on purely just on your own type of you know, starting to drift back towards assistance at that point.
Phil (1:04:04)
Yeah.
I think the other thing to consider as well is how well are you actually gonna sleep because I can get into a pretty deep sleep because I have a hundred percent trust in my crew that they're gonna wake me up in time. Like I know they're not gonna let me sleep through. But if you are relying on yourself to wake you up or relying on an alarm
are you gonna be able to get into that deep sleep or are you gonna always, you know, be sleeping with one eye open because you're like, I can't miss this alarm and then Yeah, like there's been times where I've been asleep for like five minutes and it's felt like I've been asleep for like two hours and I'm like checking my watch. I'm like, why hasn't my crew woken me? But I checked my watch and I still got five minutes left or something like that. So I just imagine like, yeah, if you're relying on yourself to to wake you up
Yeah, you might be just constantly checking your watch, in those ten minutes that you're trying to sleep and so are you really gonna get that deeper sleep? So that's probably another thing to consider.
Zach Bitter (1:05:05)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely. Well, a couple other questions. Is there any backyard ultra runner right now that you're looking at and you're like, that person seems like they'd be a person that could push me a little bit further than the rest. Is there anyone that stands out at the moment or is it too tight up top, I guess, just below you?
Phil (1:05:26)
Yeah,
definitely. so Lukash from Poland. I've got to run against him once at Biggs, but he just did not have a good day. He had a an illness or something, he had to tap out after
after seventeen hours I think. But like I've seen him at other events, he's run at Legends a couple of times. You know, he had the world record before I got it, so he ran a hundred and sixteen. He's also run a hundred and fourteen. But when I've seen him at the end of these at the end of these events, he's he's been looking fresh. Like he looks how I feel at the end of these events. So he's someone
I think who can beat me and someone that I'm looking forward to running against because I think that together both of us are gonna be able to run a long way. And so that's gonna be coming up next May in Melbourne. So we're both gonna be at Melbourne Front Yard Ultra and so it's kinda something that we've planned to be there together. There's gonna be a lot of other strong runners there as well, so we've got a few others
who have done over a hundred. So Meg Eckert and Sarah Perry, the two top females. a handful of others who have run in the eighties or nineties. So it's gonna be a really epic event. but yeah, mostly I'm looking forward to running with Lukash. And he's just he's just a real humble guy and like his yeah, he's just goes about his business and I when I've watched him on live streams for events
I've been like, this is someone that I wanna run with because he he runs similar times to what I run, like when he's at the end of, you know, hundred and fourteen or hundred and sixteen hours, he's still able to knock out forty five minute laps, whereas a lot of the other people that are kinda getting up into the hundreds, they're kind of there by the skin of their teeth and they might be coming in at like, you know, fifty five minutes or fifty six minutes. or they're just
really kind of delirious or something like that. But Lukash is just someone that I've seen who is just still looking strong at that kind of day five mark. So that's an event that I'm really looking forward to running with him and seeing how far we can go together.
Zach Bitter (1:07:47)
Very cool. Last question. the six-day event. I'm really interested in you and a six-day event after Project 168. I'm interested in you and then I'm interested in you for six days, and I'm interested in what Meg Eckert will do in her next backyard. I think there's differences between these things, even though they look quite similar at times where you look at just the sheer distance people are covering.
Have you considered trying to take a stab at the six day world record? I'm guessing that would be your target if you were to do one in the semi near term.
Phil (1:08:26)
Yeah,
I definitely would want to do it for six days. I was eyeing off doing one this year. but then yeah, Project one six eight kind of developed and that became my focus for this year. But yeah, it's definitely something that I wanna do and if I did do one, yeah, then I'd be looking at going for the record. I think even the backyard format,
you're doing six hundred miles in six days. So it's not far off of the record. You'd have to just do what is it? I think it's about another 500 or 800 meters per hour to get to the record. And I think if I was to do one I would do it similar to a backyard format.
in having, you know, the shorter sleeps and trying to be more continuous. But I would have a bit if it would just be good to have a bit more flexibility. Like I don't need to be at that start line at the start of the hour and, you know, instead of doing six point seven Ks on a day lap and having, you know, ten minutes rest, I could push that out to a bit more and do like, you know, seven and a half Ks. and then at night,
Yeah, like instead of sleeping for ten minutes at a time every hour, maybe I could sleep for half an hour at a time, every two hours, or something like that. So there's just a bit more flexibility and I would change it a bit, but I don't think I'd wanna kind of run for a hundred miles in in eighteen hours and then have six hours of sleep because I think trying to wake up and run after stopping for too long would be a bit harder. And I know now that I've done six days in a back out ultra format.
but I think I could tweak it a little bit to be able to run a little bit further and a bit more comfortably and yeah, that record I think would be within reach.
Zach Bitter (1:10:25)
Yeah, my betting number on you is the first person to cross seven hundred miles in six days.
Phil (1:10:31)
Yeah, what would that
work out to be per day? So
Zach Bitter (1:10:35)
It would be yeah, so you would need the
extra hundred miles over six days. So what would that be? Six goes into a hundred fifteen.
Phil (1:10:46)
Well you're doing about a hundred
and hundred and fifteen, hundred and twenty miles a day.
Zach Bitter (1:10:49)
Yeah, little over one fifteen a day.
Phil (1:10:52)
Yeah, yeah.
Zach Bitter (1:10:54)
So that's just like maybe three quarters of a mile every hour further than what you did.
Phil (1:11:00)
Yeah.
Zach Bitter (1:11:01)
With all the flexibility inside. So I think what maybe I think maybe what you unearthed that hasn't been leveraged enough in the six day world is the frequency of sleeping that you do. I wonder about that. I think sometimes people wait until it's getting like that until they've done too much damage and then they're like holding on by a thread with naps.
when they can versus actually starting that napping on night one so that you're sort of preempting the fatigue down the road a little bit sooner. And I think that's what would allow you to maybe go further than what we've seen is applying that strategy a little bit closer to what you're back. Kind of like what you said, I think it would be an interesting adjustment where, yeah, you don't have to do 10 minute naps, you could do a 30, and maybe, maybe benefit a little bit more than that and then have a little bit of a longer stretch before you need another one. But
I'd be really interested. So seven hundred's my bet. I'm going big for you. No pressure.
Phil (1:11:58)
Okay. Cool. Yeah, maybe I'll set that as a goal. Yeah.
Zach Bitter (1:12:05)
Awesome. Well, Phil, before I let you go, is there anything else you wanted to share or mention that is on your mind or anything exciting coming up for you?
Phil (1:12:14)
Yeah, so it's just gonna see how this recovery goes. So obviously SAT champs in four weeks time. I'm not looking good for that, so I'm probably not gonna be running in that. But yeah, Melbourne front yard ultra as I already mentioned, that's probably my next big one and that's gonna be a really big event, regardless of what I run, because there's just so many other top like so many other good runners there.
so that's gonna be one worth tuning in for. And that's gonna have the whole live stream social media thing happening at that event as well. So yeah, that's in May, so that's that's quite a bit away, so what what's that? Maybe eight months away. I'll probably have something else in between. but yeah, just gotta wait and see how this rec recovery goes. I don't wanna push it and try to do too much too soon. I wanna, yeah, do the recovery seriously and
Make sure that I'm yeah, a hundred and ten percent better.
Zach Bitter (1:13:12)
Yeah. Make sure you're here for bigger days. That's the way to do it. I think. Awesome,
Phil (1:13:15)
Yeah. Yeah.
Zach Bitter (1:13:17)
Phil. Any website or social media stuff we can share on your end?
Phil (1:13:22)
yeah, so on Instagram phil dot gore dot ultrarunner and I've also got a website now, so philgore dot com dot AU. So at the moment that's set up for project one six eight. As I mentioned, we are raising money for charity. So we've raised almost three hundred thousand dollars for Telethon, which is a charity here in WA which helps sick and disadvantaged kids. And that is still open for donations as well. So that's gonna be open until
for probably the next month or so. So yeah, if you watch Projects 168 or you got inspired by it or anything like that and you want to make a donation, there's a link on there to do that.
Zach Bitter (1:14:05)
Awesome. I'll put the links in the show note and mention that on the intro too. So even if people get bored with our conversation, they'll hear it. I don't
Phil (1:14:13)
Yeah, awesome. Thank you.
Zach Bitter (1:14:14)
I think anyone will get bored with it though. So we're probably safe.
Phil (1:14:17)
Yeah, that's been a good chat.
Zach Bitter (1:14:19)
Awesome, Phil. Thanks a bunch for coming on.
Phil (1:14:22)
No problem, thanks for having me.