Episode 500: The Truth Behind Run Slow To Run Fast | Thomas Nobbs
Thomas Nobbs is a professional marathon athlete with a 2:09 PR, and endurance coach. His progression to 2:09 speaks for itself, and his public strava profile shows how he has balanced lots of low intensity running and key quality sessions. Thomas is currently training for the Chicago Marathon, where he plans to once again improve his marathon PR.
Thomas: teamrunrun.com/coach/tom-nobbs | IG: @nobbs.not.knobs | Strava: Thomas Nobbs
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Episode Summary:
Tom Nobbs (Canadian pro marathoner, ~2:09 PB) trains publicly on Strava with very high volume (~137–145 miles/week recently) and a strongly polarized approach: most easy days in the high-7s to ~8:00/mile, with strides baked in at the end of many easy runs.
Quality work is protected so he can execute hard sessions well; he and coach Brandt use time-based (not mileage-based) programming and keep easy days tightly controlled.
Edmonton Half (Canadian Nationals) was a mid-block fitness check after only a two-day taper from 140-mile weeks. He finished 2nd to Rory Linkletter; adjusted for a long course it was a substantial half-marathon PB and gave him confidence he can go out ~1:03:40–1:03:50 in Chicago without it feeling crushing.
Chicago goal mindset: he writes “act like a 2:07 guy / you will run 2:07.” He is in the elite field, healthy, and viewing the marathon more like a long, aggressive half than a floaty long-run effort.
Getting into majors is mostly performance-driven (cutoff has tightened to roughly 2:10:30–2:10:40), plus agent relationships, platinum-label requirements, and some brand weighting (Chicago is Nike-sponsored).
Tom’s pursuit of a sponsor
Heavy treadmill use (especially early in the last 2:09 build and in Ottawa weather): controlled pacing for VO2/threshold sessions, less variability than outdoor conditions, and a personal rule (e.g., >90% humidity or strong wind → indoors).
Progression with Brandt (5–6 years, essentially injury-free since 2020): moved from 5k/10k racing into the marathon. Volume is now comfortable enough that he can add more quality and faster work (double threshold → big 10k sessions → more 5k-specific work closer to the race). They keep defending velocity at VO2 max late in the cycle.
Very long runs appear (up to ~47 km / ~3 hours, sometimes progressive or with marathon-pace blocks). The purpose is durability, aerobic stimulus, and practicing running on tired legs; he treats the extra 15–20 minutes as low-cost volume once already warmed up.
Fueling has shifted to high-carb: 114–120 g/hour on long runs and quality sessions with good tolerance and noticeably better next-day recovery. He also uses small mid-run snacks on some easy mornings that include strides. Past underfueling/REDs history makes consistent fueling a priority.
Tom coaches a group on Team Run Run and is active on Instagram as @nobbs.not.knobs
Timestamps
0:0:00 Introduction
0:2:04 Welcome Tom Nobbs
0:2:17 Why Tom’s public Strava stands out
0:4:51 Polarized training, easy days & quality sessions
0:8:07 Edmonton Half as a Chicago fitness check
0:13:01 Public goals & “act like a 2:07 guy”
0:14:45 How elite fields, agents & majors actually work
0:21:04 Shoe sponsorship, durability & super trainers
0:29:06 Using the treadmill strategically
0:37:32 Training with Brandt: easy volume structured to preserve quality sessions
0:43:11 Time-based training vs chasing mileage
0:49:08 Why the very long long runs
0:53:59 VO2 / 10K / 5K work through the marathon block
1:03:34 High-carb fueling (114–120g/hour)
1:10:42 Where to find Tom & coaching
Transcript
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Thanks for tuning into this episode of the Human Performance Outliers Podcast with Zach Bitter.
Hey everyone, before we get rolling, I just want to thank you for taking the time to check out this episode. As a way to thank you, I'm raffling off a free 30-minute consultation for anyone who shares an episode or leaves a review on your preferred platform. Just tag me or send me a screenshot and I will enter you in the monthly raffle. Please also check out my website at zakbitter.com to access my coaching services, consultations, podcast details, which include a full transcript, timestamps,
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All right, Tom, welcome to the show.
(02:06.638)
I appreciate it. no, it's great to be on. I've been a longtime listener for the last couple of years and I guess yeah, sort of surreal to be here and then chatting with you now.
(02:17.986)
Yeah, yeah, I think we're gonna have fun. It's just one of those, it's one of those topics with an interview with you that I'm really excited about because I love your Strava for a couple of reasons. One being that it's public and it's not as common nowadays where you see someone who's a sub two ten marathon or who's posting basically everything you're doing on there for all of us to see. And I mean there's pros and cons to that on your end, I'm sure, when you have all that information up there and people forming opinions and assumptions that are maybe
half educated at best at times, but I use you as an example a lot because for one, your page is so interesting to me because you have this blend of very high mileage. But then when you get it you could just kind of look at the overview of it and be like, wow 140 mile, 140 mile, 140 mile, 140 mile a week. Or I just looked at your like four week moving average on on Strabo is like 137 and that included
what for you is a lower mileage week to accommodate the admin half marathon, I think. So it was like something where when you get into the weeds of it, it just looks like the perfect example of sharing with people about what it actually means to run easy on your easy days so that you can then turn around and really execute your quality days well. And when I look at your page and just kind of scroll through the activities, it's like there's just like a whole bunch of runs that are like the high seven, low eight minute per mile pace, which
You know, that's gonna mean different things to different people, but for someone who's a two nine marathoner, that's a very casual, slow, like probably h one teen heart rate effort for you in most cases. And then you keep going, all of a sudden you see this like fourteen mile run at a five thirty pace, and then you see like this long run with marathon pace built built into it in the in the four forty, four fifty range and kilometer repeats that are like, you know, probably close to like your ten K effort and things like that, which
It's like this like variance in terms of what you're doing on your quality sessions versus truly easy recovery volume building type sessions. So I I I just explained to people who are kind of trying to grapple with that whole approach about how easy their easy runs can actually be, especially when it's in the context of high volume and two or three quality sessions per week that, you know, here you are running it in almost twice as slow in some cases of what your actual marathon pace is. And I think that helps them.
(04:41.91)
It helps a click for them. Okay, here's a guy who's been improving year over year with this approach. So there's some truth in there somewhere, right?
(04:51.508)
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. yeah, it's interesting you mentioned the Strava element. I'm honestly surprised sometimes that, you know, more pros aren't just public on Strava. It's like what are people sort of judging you for? Like I always I always think about you know, it's it's it's people that like your peers or people that are above you are never gonna judge you for that. And that's like the people that I will, you know, if if they're gonna give some sort of feedback or opinions like
Those are the opinions I'll think about most. People that are trying to surpass you are always gonna be somewhat negative, but it's like, okay, you know, they might not really have the best kind of commentary. And so I don't know, it's just it auto uploads, it just goes up there. It's like most of the stuff is not sexy, but like that's that's running. So I usually like I'll someone will give me a follow sometimes or like I'll get a DM on Strava and I'll just like to investigate who they are just for a second.
probably might not give everyone a follow back, but it'll be like myself, Rory, Connor Mance and then maybe like one or two other pros because we're like some of the only pros that like to put everything out there. And so yeah, it just you know the bulk of it is just like truly just easy days. I think there's some context that is sometimes missing. and so I do like to I I I think I'm decently good at at just providing
Like the workout details, splits, especially I love p providing splits when I feel like it was a great day, or like if I did something new or crazy and fueling, like recently I've been doing like 115 to 120 grams of carbs on long runs and then longer workouts. so I'll try to provide that too. a lot of my easy days, yeah, pretty easy, high sevens, around eight minute miles. after every single easy day.
That is not a workout day or long run, which is about like four days a week, sometimes five. I'll actually be doing hard strides at the end of the run. So I don't literally add that because I'm not gonna type like five by twenty second strides at five K to three K effort off forty seconds rest. But you know that's all that's also baked into it. So yeah I think we've just sort of developed this approach and you know really polarized a lot of the training that we're doing.
(07:09.742)
and yeah, things seem to be clicking at this point. But yeah, definitely years of, you know, picking from certain people, you know, and in different philosophies. I mean, if you look at Jack Daniels and stuff, you know, he says like past a certain point with your percentage of max heart rate, it's like you're not really getting any additional benefits and you're kind of in this sort of gray zone. And so, yeah, you might as well just reap the benefits, get more recovery and then just save
that extra energy for your hard days so you can really go all in and so that's kind of the what I'm where I'm at, especially especially in this phase, you know, where I'll be doing Chicago Marathon and the next few weeks there's very little to be gained from, you know, sending it or or pushing the pace on an easy run. And so, so much more that could be gained on just nailing a long run workout or a quality session or a threshold session. So yeah, that's where we're at right now.
(08:07.756)
Yeah. Yeah. And before we kind of dive into some of the training specific topics, I did want to ask, as you're just recently coming off the Edmund Half Marathon, which is Canadian National Championships, you were second place behind Rory Linkletter, which is a pretty good spot to be these days, in my opinion. interesting race with the kind of the course measurement issue that kind of came up after there. But with respect to I think your goals are probably around Chicago.
Was that a pretty promising fitness check for you with respect to where you wanna be at this point in your training heading into that goal race in October?
(08:44.224)
Yeah, yeah. I think you know, the ultimate thing, I've done like a lot of races where I've ended up in like solo pockets within the marathon. So I'll either end up in there's like a lead pack and I'm in kind of no man's land running my own race or I'm leading like a secondary pack. and so different scenarios like that, where I'm leading or my my last marathon I was running, you know, twenty two miles of it solo. and so I think
We we understand that like to to really be competitive in like the Canadian running scene and leading into LA twenty twenty-eight and and also, you know, more importantly, Chicago, it's like we need to get in there, be tough, compete against other guys, you know, rough up some elbows and stuff like that, which you know we did in Edmonton. and there there's basically there's just lots of windy turns and you know, I've got I've got a a longer arm span, so you know, elbows occasionally come out.
But yeah that was mainly the goal. So I would almost say it was like more of like a strategic or tactical way to to sort of prepare, but we've done we've done at least one half marathon mid block in the last three marathon blocks and I've actually really enjoyed it just to go through the race day routine and maybe get a jolt of like inspiration, motivation coming out of that weekend, especially if it goes well.
And so this one, yeah, we did like, you know, we only did a two-day taper. I was actually really nervous because I was like, man, like, you know, Brand, my coach, I was like, Brand, was this enough? Like I'm gonna be I'm gonna be racing some really fast guys and I'm showing up to on the day before the race to the technical meeting and I'm seeing like you know, it's not just Cam Levins and Rory, it's like, you know, Justin Kent, who's another two nine guy, and Ben Preisner and who's a two eight guy, and it's just l all these different, you know, talented guys. So
I wasn't actually sure if I'd done enough to to prep, because I was coming down from 140 mile weeks and then you know only a two-day taper of like 60 and 45 minutes. and yeah, I don't know, the body was ready to perform. And so I'd say that's the biggest sudden drop close to race day we've done. And yet I was able to run if you adjust for the course, whether it's
(11:08.298)
six hundred and seventy four meters too long or seven hundred or eight hundred. If you take either one of those and you map it out, it would have been like a substantial P V for me. so given all those factors and scenarios and it's like a somewhat fast course, not the fastest course ever. You know, I think I'm very excited with where the fitness was even just coming out of that weekend, not let alone like in a couple of weeks afterwards. So
Yeah, very, very promising. And I'd say I'd say just the last point to that. Again, more more just on the tactical and psychological piece, just knowing that if my half marathon fitness is in one two low to one two forty and I was finishing around, you know, maybe one two thirty, one two forty if w if adjusted. that going out in Chicago, if I have to go out in some sort of scary pace,
You know, mentally when I see that time coming through halfway, it's not gonna mentally crush me 'cause yeah, I'd like to be going out in like one three forty, one three fifty for Chicago, something like that, as of right now. This is without talking to my coach or agent about exact numbers, but knowing I can go out over a minute faster is a huge confidence boost. So yeah.
(12:32.108)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that has to be a little bit of a relief too, knowing that a two day taper versus what you'll likely have going into Chicago will also probably give you a little bit of an extra edge on Chicago Day too. So you add that to that translation and I think you're sitting in a great spot to kind of put those final pieces in place to prepare for it. So that has to be exciting. for Chicago, are you public with your goals for that? Or is that something that you've thought about at this point?
(13:01.772)
Yeah, I you know, I think I've I've I've taken a lot more appreciation in the last couple of marathons to make your goals public. I think that's just sort of a personal choice. I think I think the scene like you i I I've been learning so much more about the different levels of professional running. I got an agent you know, back in back in April and yeah, just just learning how these things work and you know, getting into a world major and I'm I'm I'm so
excited and grateful to have a spot in the pro field. but it's a lot. Like and they're, you know, they're being very generous and supportive, you know, Chicago Marathon itself and hosting me and having me and all this stuff. And it's an amazing field. So I think a lot of people would like to keep their cards close to their chest until race day because they want to make sure they're showing like they're fit and healthy. I've been fit, I've been healthy, zero injuries. I've I've been writing this down and saying it
On every single run. sort of like a psychological thing. And I'm not sure if you listen to any of the stuff with Josh Kerr and his mental performance coach, but I've I've been writing down for a long time acting like a 207 guy. And in my previous marathon build, I said act like a 210 guy, and then I ran 209. and so this time we've been writing down act like a 207 guy, and that's just sort of a mantra of
trying to tell myself to be more professional, disciplined on a daily basis. And then recently I've been writing down to act like a two seven guy, but also you will run two seven. So we'll it's a sort of mentality of like, you know, shoot for shoot for the moon, you'll end up in the stars. But that's currently the focus right now.
(14:45.504)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I I I do think it's probably worth asking you this just because some of the listeners here are coming from the ultra marathon space where entrance into events and things like that maybe look a little bit different for you as a professional marathon runner with a race like Chicago, which stands out as you know, one of the one of the majors that people are looking to go to. And with the last couple of years it's now being sort of billed as a world record style type of course. So you get that sort of incentive from the elites, I'm imagining too when they wanna
try to put a new PR on the board. Is that process something at this point where you kind of have to have an agent really to just get you in the door there? Or how much of your results are kind of speaking for themselves if you were to do that without an agent or I imagine the financial side of it probably incentivizes you having an agent so that you're able to make all that work. But I'm kind of curious about how how that happens when you do you decide like I want to do Chicago, you tell your agent,
Do what you can to get me a spot in the elite field with the best setup you can, or is it something where you're talking to the agent and he or she is more like, These are the races that I think you've got the most potential with respect to value outside of just the event itself?
(15:56.834)
Yeah, I'd say yeah, classic answer, a bit of both and and and it depends. You know, you could have an amazing performance and you could also have an amazing performance. Like there's gonna be some guys that will debut in the event, like they might have some insane half marathon time or like they you know, they they've they've killed in the N C double A and you know, maybe there's enough pull there. yeah, r running is, you know, such a traditional sport and I'm I'm learning that there's
You know, there's a lot of not, it's not what you know, but who you know behind the scenes. and so like having those connections and having the right agent who has just, you know, built those friendships over time is very valuable. and then yeah, your performances do have to align. And so I think you can kind of see this sort of trend over the years too, like you know, Chicago with you know, getting some world records on men's and women's side runs at the event.
and I think that the overall pull that it's had, especially the last three years, I would say in particular, you've just kind of seen . It's just interesting to see the average time that gets you in and what that cutoff time was. Like I think three years ago, you know, there were some two fifteen guys that got you in. Now you kind of see the cutoff is like about two ten thirty, two ten forty. And there's a couple guys that I know who were like,
on the bubble and they were running like two 1030. You know, a couple of them were Olympians or they ran like 13 minutes in the 5K. And so like, you know, maybe there's some pull there. But yeah, just crazy to think that that's like the th that's the last guy who's questioning am I going to make it into such a race? So yeah this sport is just moving really fast and I'm lucky I put a really solid performance on the board to get me in.
and yeah, I'm gonna definitely try to race and hunt down and try to beat as many guys on the list on the day as well too.
(18:02.998)
Yeah. Is it basically fairly pure with respect to performance or perceived performance potential with respect to that? Or does an event like Chicago also look at, hey, we want to market this thing as well. This person might be a pinch slower, but they're gonna expose themselves to tons more people. I wouldn't call anyone running
two ten or faster an influencer necessarily, but you kind of have that appeal to some degree where you get these guys who have these massive YouTube channels or Instagram pages and things like that and they do have that additional value added from the broader perspective of an organization like Chicago. The elite field I imagine though is pretty pure towards performance in their selection process.
(18:48.168)
Yeah, I think I think pretty pretty pure like, yeah, very, very pure to performance. they and also just like simply to be like I've been learning more about what certain races are and what they have to do to be a gold label status versus platinum label. Like only the world majors are platinum label, which also means that they need to have a certain number of top world ranked runners in that race. and they need to have like a certain time whether it's like
something ridiculous like sub two five or two four or faster to every year can to to to be considered a platinum label race. Which is just, you know, crazy. And that's why there's only seven platinum label races in the world right now. yeah definitely definitely performance based and then I think the other the other t interesting thing, like maybe not on the influencer side, I'm sure some influencers, you know, get a birth because
Because they're influencers, they're outside of the pro pro field. but yeah, some races are brand sponsored. So Nike is Nike is Chicago, New Balance is London, New Balance is also New York, Boston, I believe Boston's Adidas, Japan is Asics, I don't know what Sydney is, but anyway, you have a major brand affiliation, and so I think there's a little bit not a favoritism, but
They try to at least have some solid weighting from you know, whatever that brand is for like sponsored pro runners in that field.
(20:24.234)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I imagine too there is there's two sides of this too, because the athlete has to want to go to that race as well. And they're going to get incentivized from all different angles. So if you're a Nike athlete and you're sitting and you're planning out your schedule with them and writing your contract and everything like that, and you say, I want to do Chicago, they're probably like, well, great. We sponsor Chicago.
(20:46.252)
Yeah, yeah, I and I say all I say all this, you know, I'm I'm I'm I'm sort of newer as a pro runner. And I use the quotations just 'cause I don't have a shoe sponsor right now. So I'm you know, just just learning all this stuff and you know hopefully I'll I'll have my chance to to rep a brand at some point soon.
(21:04.994)
Yeah, is so that's something you're actively seeking right now is a shoe sponsorship?
(21:09.622)
Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm not in a rush. You know, I got my favorite shoes that I run in, but otherwise yeah. It would be nice. I think with the mileage that I'm running right now, I've definitely been going through shoes like pretty pretty quick. And actually interestingly I've I've I've been talking to some of my athletes, but also for myself. I've been looking at like
Shoes, like my shoes, like I used to look at shoes in terms of like, what discount could I get? And I'd be switching between brands and whatever's cheapest. But recently I've been trying to look at things like, what shoe is gonna last me the longest? Because I think with certain shoes and the foam they're using, it's amazing how many miles you can get in some of these pairs. And like the the there's there's actually such a crazy discrepancy in like what what you can get in one brand of shoe before it's like burnt out and has no pop to it versus
V versus others. So yeah, that's been like a little one percenter that I've been trying to dial in across this block on the technology side of things, which has been interesting. So yeah, I'm still getting to experiment with all different kinds of shoes.
(22:19.36)
Yeah. Yeah, it is fun to do that. I've been playing around. I've been brand agnostic for almost two years at this point. So I've been able to play around with them which was a really fun experience 'cause I was with Ultra Footwear for eleven years, so I didn't really have a lot of opportunities to play around with the full field of options. And even in that time frame, I think I probably came into that experience thinking there were only maybe two or three shoes I would consider for race day from a performance standpoint.
And at this point in time, there's probably a dozen that we're talking about some very marginal differences between them with respect to how I think they would actually influence my finishing time at the end of saving a hundred miler. And I'm, you know, we're really extrapolating out pretty far with the variables for a hundred miles versus I mean, we are for a marathon too, to some degree when you look at these efficiency tests and how they're done. But realistically, I think, yeah, the market is now getting to a point now where
As a pro athlete, you can realistically consider most of the major if not all the major brands to some degree and not feel like, Okay, well if I if I partner up with this brand it's gonna come at a cost of me finding my true potential because XU would have gotten me to the finish line noticeably faster.
(23:33.718)
Yeah, no, no, absolutely. yeah, and you kind of see like no not even just like the super shoes. So I think it was like my dad actually used to own a shoe store, multiple locations in Vancouver, BC. so I grew up in a shoe store, I worked in the shoe store, stocked the shelves and we used to obsess a ton about the shoes. I've sort of let that go a little bit over the years. but
But yeah, I think there was a big difference in whatever that race day shoe was. and then I think recently there was a big difference in what the super trainers were like between brands. But now I see that sort of catching up too. And I think again, coming back to you know, prioritizing what sort of training shoe we're using, I think that's actually a bigger performance advantage than I originally thought. is just like what shoe is going to
alleviate a lot of the mechanical load so you can just train more and train harder and you know bounce back day to day. and that comes from your easy mileage as well as your hard stuff and your workout. So yeah I've I I think I've just seen other shoe brands try to upgrade like to have a a non plated long run shoe that you can do up tempos in and also like a max stack kind of shoe that you can, you know, still pick it up in and you know maybe like a
a lighter profile sort of shoe that you can do some track work in, but you could also do a tempo in. So they've got just many different, many different options. And I think more brands are coming to the table with that. So I'd say ASICs to me are sort of leading that charge of having all these different workout shoes and long run shoes and max stack shoes. but I think all the other brands are really following suit as well.
(25:23.88)
Mm. Yeah, they kind of carved that that lane, I think, to show show the other brands that that's probably the way the catalogs will will line up, which it's just really interesting to think about how like dis shoe development has changed because of that, where now you kind of have like your flagship performance shoe that you can just build around, whereas in the past I I think it was a lot more that was kind of like the fringe element of your catalog. It was your race shoe. And then like your trainers were probably the big one, the big
workhorse from a sales standpoint. But yeah, it's it's a it's I I would have never guessed the shoe world would look like this ten years ago if you had told me like in twenty twenty six this is what you'll be thinking about.
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Yeah, or or that the prices would be what they are now.
(26:06.594)
Right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no doubt. Yeah. I think I'm trying to remember this 'cause I think at one point I think I was maybe a senior in high school. I remember I bought a pair of running shoes for like I think it was like a hundred and twenty dollars. And I think I remember thinking like, wow, that is so expensive. I better get a ton of miles out of these. And nowadays it's like a hundred and twenty dollar pair of running shoes is pretty low on the price list with what you can spend. So yeah, it's a different world with that sort of stuff. But
but yeah, what you said was interesting too with respect to just like the training side of things, because I do think about that a lot in terms of almost looking at the shoes the same way as I would potentially doing cross training to add extra volume without the impact, because you do get that preservation aspect of some of these shoes now where you know I might be able to do a little bit more volume at low intensity on a recovery run in a pair of premium foam shoes than I would have in the past. And then
That may translate to like 10% more volume over the course of a six month build or something like that. I just wouldn't have been able to get through the running mechanic the same way. Maybe I have to hop on a bike or an elliptical to do that in the past. So that's another really interesting piece to the puzzle too. It's like there's the performance of the shoe itself on race day, but there's also the performance of how much better you can get at the skill development and your actual potential with the products in training them.
(27:33.056)
Yeah, yeah. No, I I saw I saw like a like an Instagram graphic the other day and I had it almost like sort of registered to me that I was like doing this without like actually sort of recognizing it, but like, you know, taking a shoe like the Vomero Plus or Vomero Premium and then you're running like a woodweight treadmill or something like that. Or like I use a lot of the
the good life fitness treadmills and they actually have like a little bit of suspension in there too. You can feel like, wow, it's like literally just cushioning the fall of my joints and feet and stuff like that. But then I'm running in like the super blast three right now. And so it's like that plus the treadmill plus like add some incline and play a little along with that. Plus, you know, maybe I don't care as much about pace and it's like that's a dream recovery run. So yeah even yesterday I did a massive
morning session and then I did 45 minutes on the treadmill and I texted my coach, I was like, man, I could have done like another threshold session this afternoon if it was on the treadmill. Like I just felt so, so great. and so yeah, I think some people don't necessarily take advantage of that stuff. And and then yeah, I think some of those things like jumping on the treadmill or some of those higher stack super trainers, like the super blast, like I think that helped in my first few weeks of
getting up to higher mileage in like, you know, the one forty or one forty five mile range. And yeah, something that I'm I'm gonna be looking at in the next forty days that I got to make the most of every single recovery run and workout as well.
(29:06.134)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that's maybe a good transition point because I have been watching the running world shift a little bit towards treadmills being used a little more strategically, kind of similar to kind of indoor trainers for biking, where I think the cyclists learned this pretty early on, where you can eliminate a lot of the variables that would make it the waters a little muddier in terms of assessing progress by getting everything controlled on an indoor trainer. And then minus the
the safety concerns you have doing all your training outside on the roads. So I see the treadmill sort of starting to maybe carve a space like that with running where you see more people using the treadmill strategically for use cases other than just, hey, that was my only option. Or weather yeah, weather was so bad it was going to be a real quality compromise to go outside versus hopping on the treadmill and kind of taking
that is taking it as a compromise versus a solution. I know you've used a treadmill a lot in the past. I think your use case is a little bit more seasonal based with the winter you guys get up there. Yeah. But yeah, maybe talk to me a little bit about how you've used the treadmill in your training to get to where you've gotten with your volume and race results and things like that.
(30:22.848)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well I think yeah for context my last bar marathon built to run two nine was probably ninety I'd say like ninety-eight percent of workouts I'd say were on the treadmill. There's like maybe two workouts that were outside. and I know you had my coach Brandt on to chat about some of that stuff. and then I think, yeah, sort of recently, I think especially early in the season, I think it's allowed me to
sort of lock into a pace and apply a bit more intensity discipline. And I think that's kind of been the theme that my coach has been, you know trying to instill in me across this build is like okay we're doing we're doing high volume but like the real secret is like can you do high volume and still hit quality paces? and then on top of that it's like hit quality paces but we're not trying to redline right like if you run 145 miles this week
And you get in one quality session and fry yourself, well, that doesn't really help us because we need to repeat this effort, repeat this mileage, you know, week over week until race day. and so I think some of the some of the early things that we did in the block, we do a lot of double thresholds. and so whether that's outside or inside, I think it really helps you find that rhythm for your threshold work, whether it's your L T one or L T two. so like
We use kind of the equivalent of you know Jack Daniels, which is like Jack Daniels pacing, which is like marathon pace and tempo pace. so tempo pace being your LT2. and then I think that's that's helped. Mostly I would say there we did some massive 10K sessions. So we did like 10K pace for huge sessions, like I think we did 12 by a K 10K off like a minute rest. We did eight.
or nine by a mile at ten K pace. I think it was more like eight of them. and I think we did a ridiculous number of twelve hundreds at one point two. Or like I think we did like a fit we did fifteen minutes at tempo and then a bunch of twelve hundreds. And so I think neurologically speaking, like I train solo and so jumping on the treadmill, like it was very helpful to just set the pace and just like, you know, tough it out and you just have to spin your legs and
(32:42.526)
it's easier to hold yourself to that fire. and and also just know like, this is this is 250 per K. Don't go one step past 250 per K. Like if I'm outside and I get a little too excited, or I'm like frustrated I didn't hit a split in my last rep, then you know, I might overdo it on, you know, go like two forty eight or something like that. And so I think that you can hold yourself perfectly close to the red line without going over the red line.
so within some of that VO2 max work, like that's that's where I found the most amount of benefit. And then yeah, and then I think the other thing too, like sort of due to conditions, like we get a ton of humidity in Ottawa, we get a ton of wind, we get a ton of storms, it's honestly like super variable conditions, and this summer has not been great. and so I've actually just been trying to create a code for myself. It's like if over 90% humidity go indoors, if
wind over twenty kilometers, go indoors. You know, different things like that so I can remove the indecision. Cause Brent knows this, my coach, it's just I've been over stressing about the conditions, trying to chase the perfect workout. And recently I've had to let go of that because there is no perfect workout. There are no perfect workout conditions. but just knowing that I have the option for the treadmill, I have the option to go outside and then choose what's the most optimal for getting the best quality workout.
That's something that I've been trying to work on recently. so that and the VO two max stuff has been my focus. So yeah.
(34:17.368)
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A track is pretty controllable too, but then you have the weather component that maybe is going to change from one season to the next. So you're always a little bit further away from doing a true comparator. But if you collect all that data on the treadmill, whether it's the middle of summer or the middle of winter, you can always hop on that machine, dial up that workout and see where I am at with respect to what I've done in these controlled environments in the past. And I think that's very, very useful from just a development standpoint and being as accurate with the data as you can.
(36:17.878)
Yeah, yeah, and like even yeah, especially if you're going like exactly to the same gym, like we we can get like super particular, but if you look at like the dew point humidity and temperature outside, that's that's very variable even the exact day of the year one year previous or a block previous. but if you go into like I go to the exact good life gym, you know, I know what
what the air temperature in that gym is probably gonna be like and it's gonna be within a couple of degrees. and so even that matters to me. And then as long as I'm hydrating based on feel, you know, I think I think we're gonna match the conditions in the best possible way. and and yeah, I think I think if I look at splits for in certain blocks training on the treadmill for, you know, repeats or long threshold sessions, I see a lot less variability. and
you know, sometimes outside it's like I might be trying to tune in and hit the right effort outside, but I think there's just more variability in pacing. So yeah, like you said, that feedback is really helpful. threshold sessions, especially tempo sessions, you can just be like, three minutes per K or three one per K. That's like the tiniest little difference and that data is is nice to have for sure.
(37:32.958)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And what you mentioned before too, with your coach being Brant, who was on this ep or on my podcast, I think was episode four eighty-five, for anyone listening who wanted to go check that one out. Cause we did talk about kind of some of this stuff around his philosophy and working with you and things like that, which I find to be just a cool dynamic because you clearly have done your own research and your own interests within running, and I'm sure have theories and stuff like that, and picked Brandt for a reason. But when you have like those two sort of
Like those two minds working together, I think you two probably have some really interesting conversations around the hows and whys that you're doing. But one thing that Brant mentioned on the podcast I found like just a great way to describe training theory and his approach was that when he's looking at just things broadly speaking from this training cycle leading to a race, he's like, We have these quality sessions that we're looking to try to make sure we're gonna get.
as much quality out of them as we can possibly get. And then from there, filling in around that with as much low intensity volume, easy runs that you can tolerate is sort of where where you want to be, where doing more of that easy run is that comes at the expense of that quality is going to be a compromise you don't really want to make or over leveraging your training sessions so that goes beyond what you're able or what you need to do in order to get what you're looking for.
could come at the expense of your ability to tolerate the low intensity volume. So there's like there's this interesting interplay amongst all of that. But I say all that just to kind of like show just the the progression that you've experienced over time working with him and just doing your training in a way that I would call very patient and very calculated, where now like you've earned the right to do 140 mile training weeks with three quality sessions in it because you worked up to that.
So I'm kind of curious about just that progression when you decide, Okay, I'm gonna really just see where my max potential in a marathon is, what some of those starting points were there, and then like how that maybe led to what you're currently doing.
(39:39.478)
Yeah, yeah. Well you know, definitely I owe a ton to Brandt. I think, you know, I've been with Brandt for maybe five or six years now. And see I've been healthy for the last six, so I'd say like since the start of twenty twenty. no no injuries at all, no no missed workouts from injury, maybe like, you know, a couple of times I got food poisoning or something like that, or I was sick, but
You know, that's definitely played into the consistency element and I think just sort of shifting to the marathon, I guess, is sort of part of that question. But I was also like a 5k and 10k guy after I ditched the steeple after my second year in college and we had COVID. So steeple opportunities were like super limited, but you could do
You do a 5k time trial or 10k time trial and do it on the roads. There were just more races available for that too. and I think I loved that because it was like max pain, you know, max amount of hurt. It was, you know, a very Steve Prefontaine type thing where it's like, all right, who's who's the one that can bleed the longest and make it hurt? And I just sort of loved that sort of mentality. but sort of with that and and being a bit of a hammerhead in workouts,
I was probably gonna burn myself up at some point. and then, you know, transitioning to the marathon was sort of like the smart decision that that brand suggested he really planted that seed. Because yeah, the marathon just requires a lot more intensity discipline just based on how much work that you're putting in on a weekly basis. And so I think I never I didn't necessarily choose the marathon, I guess the marathon chose me.
and so it's been a yeah, a great storm of factors and working with Brandt on these things over the last few years. And yeah, his approach, he's great at sort of distilling a lot of concepts and speaking to me from both a science perspective but a logic perspective too. So I'm always bought into the process. Like occasionally I'll be like, you know, complaining about this, that, and the other thing. And
(41:50.082)
You know, he'll talk me through why he believes it works and I think every marathon I've bought into the process more and more because I've started to see things click and understand it and you know my first marathon didn't go great. I actually probably wasn't my most consistent during that phase. I had some you know mental health challenges at the at the time and for someone who is always a hundred and ten percent type A
It was like the weirdest three three month block of not trying my hardest. but like running two hundred nineteen in my first marathon, I've been able to cut like three to four minutes per marathon to get down to two hundred nine. So yeah, the evidence is there and so very much bought into the model. And I mean, I think the workouts have just gotten more fun over time too. Like, you know, we've even done earlier in this block, we did like five workouts in a week. And one of those was like a a massive long run workout and run
Hundred and forty five miles in the week. So, you know, that's the kind of stuff where I'm pushing my limits and it's exciting me. And we're still doing double the threshold. I love that. We're still doing some, you know, really hard VO2 max sessions. And yeah, the last two, three weeks have been some of the greatest workouts of my life. So yeah, I don't know. I'm just I'm just I'm just loving it and each year just gets a lot more fun.
(43:11.938)
Yeah. Yeah, and you almost anticipate that next level that he's gonna take you to once you've sort of unlocked a new achievement. So I'm sure that's always a little bit of a carrot at the end of all the work you're currently doing. I want one thing I do wanna mention too, because I know you and Brandt are directionally headed this way too, if you don't really look at a given week and say, Okay, Tom's gonna run a hundred forty miles or hundred forty five miles. You guys are looking at it from a volume standpoint.
With that quality work. So I'm kind of curious how that looks with your easy runs. Is that essentially Brant saying, here's the amount of time I want you to run and just keep that really nice and chill, which I'm sure you have on lock in your perception standpoint at this point. And then you just go and do it and you leave wherever the miles and kilometers land where they are at the end of the week. Is that a generally kind of accurate way of how you guys are going about that?
(44:03.862)
Yeah, yeah. I yeah, so we work entirely like time based or in minutes and and hours. And then, you know, I think for myself like I see the little strobograph at the end of the week and sometimes we get the tiniest dopamine hit when I see the numbers align where I wanted to.
But I think, yeah, time really does change your sort of perspective on how you're doing things. I think I see people that run in terms of distance and miles and I think they strain and it's easier for them to add up the numbers in their head. Even if you switch from miles to kilometers, trust me, like when you're trying to figure out in your last two days how many more kilometers you need to run versus miles, like the math is already harder on a run. So you're you know, like if you're doing miles, you're like, I gotta push like another mile. And it's like, okay, well, most people if they're running
seven minute miles, it's like, okay, I've got to, you know, push another seven minutes or something like that. And that can be a big difference from, you know, doing like a sixty minute run versus like a sixty seven or seventy minute run. And I yeah, I just find people tend to rush things, push their paces, strain a bit more in workouts. And I think time it's like, okay, well, whether I go out and run four minute K's or whether I go out and run five minute K's, I still gotta get this ninety minute run done. Right. And so
I think that shift in perspective, you know, means you just don't rush it. We like to keep, you know, get up to like a critical amount of volume that we feel is sustainable and I can repeat week over week. So we found that. and then we're trying to maintain those easy days as controlled as possible. sort of like almost the flip of like the Norwegian model you could think of, which is like they want to have everything be so controlled on the workout days so that they're almost
controlling for recovery. That's like one of the primary benefits of the Norwegian double threshold or double double threshold model. You know, we're trying to get to a point where we can control all variables for the easy days that we know we're going to get a guaranteed result on the actual workout days and have a very consistent outcome for every workout day. And so yeah, I think that's that's the place that we're at. And then sort of like I think the brand looks at it very conceptually. I think with my athletes that I coach,
(46:21.17)
I look at it very conceptually. It's like, okay, well, they just did this workout in the morning. Like, how are they gonna feel? And sort of just understanding a little bit about the physiology, but like what is the benefit that they're gonna get from an added double or you know, secondary workout, or it's like, the next couple of days we are adding in some strides. And so sort of thinking at it from thinking of it from a practical standpoint, not just from we're we're just like trying to add up some math to hit a certain number of miles and
You know, again, it's just a dopamine hit at the end of the week if you're just trying to add up the miles so it's like a hundred miles, bang on. You know.
(46:58.574)
Yeah. So sometimes I love the scenario in which I finish a week and it's like ninety nine miles on Strav 'cause someone is gonna see that and be like, What go out and run an extra mile and be like, Why? I hit the volume I was looking for
(47:12.474)
And actually the funniest is the funniest thing, I have li there's a few guys that I heavily relate to. There's a guy named Robert, he's he lives in Kingston, Ontario, and he'll he's the first one to comment 'cause some of my runs that I do are like two hours and forty five minutes. And sometimes if I run like even bang on like four minute Ks, there's been like several, several times where this might drive people crazy, but I'll hit like forty one point eight K or like forty two K, but not forty two point two.
I have done, you know, full marathons in my long runs or longer than that too. and you know, maybe we can talk about some of those long distance runs. But yeah, it is. It's like the discipline that you need to get to the next level is being so comfortable that you can ditch two hundred meters and not go the full marathon in the long run. Just because you know you've done enough for the day and you've done enough for the week.
(48:07.98)
Yeah. Yeah, people get very gassed up around the marathon number on those training runs too. I've done that same thing where I'll do like a twenty five mile long run or something like that. And like you couldn't be bothered to do a couple more laps around the tracks like nope.
(48:21.87)
I do have one confession to make and this has been a habit that I think I've had for years, like actually my whole life. I've always added like one rep. Like one like it's like push ups, it's like a coach says do twenty, I'll do twenty one. Like and I've just done that my whole life. I have this weird O C D like thing where I'll add like one one point five, two point five or three minutes to like every single run. and
Brandt has just let it slide at this point, but that's why I always finish with really odd numbers. So yeah.
(48:55.98)
Just wait just wait until he starts programming a a two hour and forty three and a half minute long run so that you end up
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Well then I'll be I'll be I'll be finishing at like, you know, two hours and forty six point five minutes.
(49:08.366)
Yeah, you'll you'll you'll be aware of his his his r his sneaky approach if he does that. So yeah. You can always regame it. But yeah, yeah, I would like to chat about the kind of the long distance runs, if there's a thought process behind that 'cause I do see that pop up in the marathon world from time to time. I actually think Galen Rupp may have done some of that when he was in his kind of peak marathon training. that it created a bit of a
I wouldn't say controversy, but a topic that was like, is that worthwhile? Like what is he doing? What's the point? And all that sort of stuff. So what's your thought process behind it? 'Cause I have noticed a couple near thirty mile long runs on your Strava page pop up over the time I've spent on there.
(49:54.486)
Yeah. no, I mean I don't think it's. I don't think it's crazy by any means. I think, you know, sometimes the difference between two two and a half hours versus you know two hours and forty five minutes is very minimal for an elite or a pro. It's like, we'll just run an extra two or or three miles, like a big deal. and so it's like okay, we're just trying to get, you know, t you know, fifteen minutes more of the week or something like that.
It's like, why not just stack it into a run where you're already warm, you've got a ton of momentum going, you're probably moving at a more economical pace, your stride is like, you know, a lot a lot more economical too. just add it in there. So I think there's sort of one way that you could look at it and stack your hard days and make your hard days harder. also just letting the fatigue build. We need to, you know, teach ourselves to be able to process, you know, be able to pick up a pace or maintain pace.
whether that's an easy run or a workout while running on fatigue legs. And that's basically basically what the marathon is. You know, so much of it is built around durability. so I think I think it's building a durability sort of element to it. I think you get a big aerobic benefit from those massive long runs. I think there's, you know, probably an exercise physiologist that could explain it better. But I think in terms of aerobic metabolism, I think you get a massive boost. And I do feel that actually I think even what it was? It was not
This past long run, but the long run before that, I think was my longest long run. And I think I felt like this huge, like it kind of just felt like I was getting a shot of like oxygen from an oxygen tank for the next few days afterwards. and so I think if you're fueling appropriately and your legs can handle it, then it's like why why not? I'm pretty sure the Kenyans have done this for years. Like they would just do like a three-hour long run.
it's either they would do the three hour long run or they would do like a 40k progressive long run. And I think so many of these, you know, Kenyan camps, it's like they'll do the 40K and they'll say like if they finish if they finish that 40k in a certain time, they're like, we know we're gonna run the marathon in that time. So even though they don't have the last two point two K, you know, they just they just know like that's where their fitness is at and it
(52:12.76)
translates remarkably well. I'd say from an intensity standpoint, if I had to quantify the intensity of that, a 40k progressive long run is about maybe the same intensity as just three hours. So yeah, we've done a few of those. So I did one three hour long run. That was 46.28 kilometers. I was trying more of a high carb approach there. And let's see we did yeah one week after Edmonton. I was supposed to do
I actually failed this workout and it was on the treadmill. I was supposed to do 30 minutes easy, 30 minutes marathon pace, 30 minutes easy, 30 minutes marathon pace, 30 minutes easy, and finish in 30 minutes of marathon pace. So it would have been a massive session. and I ended up getting, let's see, 47.21 kilometers. So someone can figure out what that is in terms of miles. but I actually failed that because I was sweating so much late into the long run.
that the belt started to slip because there's so much sweat on it. And so this is how like, you know, technically I'm getting with treadmills now where it's like, I I think I actually would need to switch treadmills, change shoes, and run on a wood make woodweight treadmill that has like the tank track so that the sweat can seep through and it air it airs out a little bit more. so I failed to hit the last 30 minute marathon session. That's gonna, you know, haunt me for the rest of my life.
but I did get in like the full amount of time and I was running pretty efficiently. So yeah, forty seven point two one kilometers is probably the longest one. but technically failed the workout.
(53:48.974)
Yeah, that's one of those where on when you look at it on paper from anyone who doesn't know the specifics, like that doesn't look like a failed workout to me. So
(53:57.69)
Yeah, exactly.
(53:59.658)
Interesting. Yeah. So the other thing I wanted to ask you too is how you and Brant treat things higher on the aerobic intensity spectrum as you get closer to race day. I think I remember y you might have been on the Sweat Elite podcast talking about kind of how you use like a ten K effort as a bit of a ceiling predictor for marathon training and things like that. But I'd be curious how you are distributing VO2 MX type training intervals through your training plan.
And then if I'm accurate about that ten K thing, like how that kind of plays into it all.
(54:33.904)
yeah, so I think yeah, in terms of marathon specific work, I'd say we start kind of earlier in the block and we might be, you know, slower or further off what goal marathon pace is. And I think we never really know what the goal of marathon pace is. Like again, everything is we're we're chasing a physiological effort or intensity that we're trying to achieve in the body and there's a myriad of factors that affect what that is. And
simply the fact that you're not tapered and ready to roll on on race day is also one thing where it's very hard for you to hit that exact sort of pace. You know, I trained my entire last marathon not touching my goal marathon pace, and then I ran goal marathon pace for twenty six point two miles, right? So that can very much be the case. And so we're normally trying to chase that effort. I'd say
You're talking about when to when we sort of integrate some of those like harder ten K efforts and things like that?
(55:34.048)
Yeah, yeah, I'm just curious, like when you're starting to get into the faster stuff that's above your marathon pace, are you guys pulling back on some of that as you get closer to the race to create room for training load that's maybe a little bit closer to marathon effort? or is something like a short interval session at VO two max, something that's pretty stable in the plan over the course of it?
(55:58.018)
Yeah, I think yeah, currently yeah, we did a ton of double threshold and threshold work to start the build off. And then I think we've added in more 10 case specific work. and then actually this th this works in perfectly with Brandt's marathon hierarchy and pyramid where you know we're starting the base, getting in a ton of easy miles, then we're layering in marathon pace, like progress pro progression runs and
you know, double threshold at LT1 and LT2, so marathon pace and tempo pace. Then we did some, you know, pretty massive tempo sessions. And then I think we've been layering in a lot of like 10k specific stuff. So as we're getting closer to race day, I think we're just working through each sort of pace range, and that's becoming like a heavy focus. I think we're through most of the 10k block, and now I've been actually working through a lot of like five like sessions that have
you know, five case specific work in it. So I had a really fun session last week. It was 10 minutes tempo, two minutes easy, 3k at 10k effort, four minutes easy, three by a K at 5K effort, off two minutes easy, and then four by four hundred all out. so again working through a bunch of pace ranges and I think that was maybe the second workout where we were doing a bit more five case specific work. So
Again, I mentioned a few like 10K specific sessions, but I think we're slowly getting things faster and faster. And I'd say, yeah, the intensity of those paces is increasing as we're getting closer to race day. and then the density of some of those faster sessions at VO2 will increase closer to race day as well. I think right now we're still in a phase where we're
Sometimes we're doing two midweek workouts in a long run. Sometimes we're doing one midweek workout and one long run workout. so I think we still want to have those big hard workout days sort of spread out so I can really capitalize on them. But closer to race day, I think the intensity needs to become a little bit more frequent, just so we don't like to go stale and also just to get a little sharper as we get closer to race day. So yeah.
(58:19.16)
No, you guys are like actively defending that velocity at VO two max pretty late into the program. it kinda almost sounds like I know like Connor Mance has talked about this with some of the stuff that like Ed I Stone had done with with the folks working with him where it was just like a little bit more of that near the end of a training plan than what we'd seen some of the some marathon training plans where they would maybe pull back a little bit on that in an effort to free up training load for things a little more specific to their marathon intensity. But
I mean, at the end of the day, you guys are running at such a high percentage of your VO two max on race day. It's like you can only separate so much before it starts compromising your ceiling enough to make a difference, I'm sure. So it's always interesting to hear how you guys are thinking about all that stuff.
(59:02.304)
Yeah, yeah, I think you know, I think for the average marathoner, I think much more of it is, you know, an aerobic focus, you know, a lot more aerobically demanding. And then I think, you know, as you shift more and more towards the pros and you know, the pros that are far better than me, I think you're essentially running much more c you're running your marathon pace much closer to what is like your true threshold or LT2. So like those two kinds of bump up against each other.
and I think sort of like if we sort of think about it, and I think I was I was listening to something recently with the the joiner model, thinking through like, you know, the three sort of physiological metrics that you can improve, like running economy, threshold, as well as VO2 max. you know, if yeah, threshold is a percent of your VO2 max, we do need to bump up that VO2 max so that we can keep pushing up that threshold. and then I think that essentially ensures that you can sustain your threshold.
for a longer period, but also, you know, you can run, you can run your marathon pace for a longer period and then dip into the threshold. I don't know, that's at least how I'm thinking about it. But I'd say after my last marathon, now the marathon just kind of seems like a long half marathon. Essentially. And for some reason for some reason the first half just feels kind of breezy. And for some reason I'm looking at my watch and like
How is it how am I holding three minute K's and then I've got to, you know, double this for for the next next half of things. So yeah, it's a bit of a weird mind shift to be thinking of it that way. And yeah, even even last year in the marathon, it it felt like I was like it's kind of this this this more like floaty marathon pace, like long run type effort. And now it's suddenly become more of this like faster, aggressive.
The half marathon type feels like right from the gun. So yeah, that's just where the marathon is headed, I guess.
(01:01:03.606)
Yeah. I this was years ago at this point, but I remember I'm pretty sure it was Emma Bates said this when she was early on in one of her marathon builds and they had done the first kind of marathon effort training session, which was very low volume relative to what where she was going to be in twelve weeks. And she said, like, it's always mind boggling to me how unsustainable that effort feels for twenty six point two miles at that stage in training and how sustainable it will get in just a matter of a few months. So
It is kind of really interesting to think about how once you start kind of applying that training to a massive aerobic foundation, how quickly you actually do start moving the needle on, how long you can sustain that stuff versus your first workout back.
(01:01:49.114)
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I think I think it's interesting. Like as you're going through that marathon build, like, you know, at some point you're gonna, you know, peak and plateau in terms of your mileage. And I see this with, you know, athletes trying to break three hours, but I see this with myself, like running the mileage that I'm running, this has now sort of become, you know, very comfortable. Like clearly the body has adapted to this amount of mileage, it's recovering quicker day to day when whether that's like
you know, other sorts of aspects of fitness, where I'm just like more durable and so this volume is just very comfortable. Whatever the reason is, it's just that allows me to capitalize more on the workout days, more on like the c the quality of it, you know, have better like repeatability within my like interval sessions. so I can get in a lot more time closer to that goal marathon pace or even under it as well. So like I think
You know, last week or the week before I did like double threshold day and the afternoon was like twelve by K at tempo. And I think I was starting at like three minute K's or three one and I got down to like two fifty-three per K. and that felt like a tempo effort, but I've never seen splits like that before. and so I'm like, well how am I able to do that? 'Cause you know, maybe like five, six weeks ago I was like
just gasping for air, like how am I going to make it through this week of mileage? And then also fit in this quality work. And it was, you know, quite a bit slower in terms of the average, you know, K repeats. And so yeah, I think you just get comfortable, the body adapts to the mileage and we keep that constant so we can recover and then just get in a boatload more time closer to or just under your goal pace. And yeah, then things work out for race day.
(01:03:34.7)
No doubt. Yeah. I did want to ask you about your fueling strategy and you mentioned at the beginning of the episode about how you were maybe pushing the totals up a little bit per hour for carbohydrate and race day. I guess there's maybe kind of two two lines of thinking here. One would be like, what are you doing in training to prepare your body to be able to tolerate, you know, some of those higher months of grams per hour on race day? And then is there any specific thinking around trying to hit those numbers versus what you've done in the past?
(01:04:04.716)
Yeah, so I've you know I've gone through you know phases of you know underfueling insane amounts in college and and high school and gone through stress fractures and I've I've had reds and you know you know low low hormones and and all that stuff and and so I'd say like now probably my fueling's in the best spot that it's it's ever been and you know for the longest time you know probably in a state of reds where I'm just underfueling consistently.
and then also in a state of rest where I'm underfueling at the wrong times of the day, like during workout periods and stuff like that. And I think I've heard you sort of comment on, you know, those two different types where sometimes it's very obvious and sometimes it's very it's not obvious. and so I think now I'm I'm definitely like going pretty heavy on cards, like right before the session, and then also during the session, after, and even like if it's within a 12-hour window, so I'm getting up doing a morning session, I'll
You know, I'll be having dessert at night and it's like I don't care if it's bad for my sleep, whatever. I think from a fueling adaptation standpoint, I think it's actually great that I have my cereal like right before bed or cereal with sugar or like, you know, ice cream or whatever it is. and then yeah, within sessions I've been trying to flex this a little bit more lately. So I've probably done my highest, like a hundred and twenty grams of carbs, within a long run. and I found
Number one, no stomach issues, so that's cool. but I think the recovery aspect is pretty huge. So I found that compared to previous long runs, like I was the mu the next day, the Monday, I was like, wow, my strides feel great. It felt like it felt like I even tapered yesterday for some reason. So yeah, more so on the recovery aspect so I can bounce back from longer sessions. and then
Yeah, I did a hundred and fourteen grams of carbs yesterday in a session, which was six K, five K, four K, three K, two K, cutting down from marathon pace to half marathon pace. so quite a bit faster than marathon pace, which most people tend to think when I hear this sort of idea talked about where if you're running at or faster than marathon pace, you're gonna have some stomach issues while taking in your fuel.
(01:06:28.898)
I actually don't think that's the case. Everything was totally fine. So I think the way I'm thinking about it is there's a lower oxygen cost if you're doing high carb in general, or I guess like super high carb would be to me, super high carb is anything over a hundred grams basically, for runners. and so I I think I haven't noticed maybe I haven't noticed as much in terms of like it allowing you to
hit a key pace or run faster paces, but the recovery element has been pretty substantial. So I think I'm gonna keep doing that. Maybe I'll get to a point where I'm, you know, locked in and I'll do 115, 114 grams of carbs per hour on race day. but definitely for like all long runs and workouts from now on it'd probably be 114 to 120 just to just see what I can do there. Yeah.
(01:07:23.17)
So you're really kind of pulling that lever during those quality sessions to both help with improving the quality of the sessions but also improve the recovery from them and then practice things that are probably gonna be a little more specific to your digestive needs when you're out there blasting four forty fives during during a marathon.
(01:07:41.452)
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. And I and I think even yeah, there's there's there's definitely like a a a d a ch a change in in how you feel, just within the run and and also mentally too. Like I think this past Sunday it was just two hours and forty five minutes easy, but I for that like final hour, when I was doing a hundred and twenty grams, I was just like, like this is when I feel my most energized, which is like kind of odd to to sort of think about, but
Yeah, again there's the mental aspect, there's the physical aspect, and yeah, I'm just lucky that part of my job is just inhaling a bunch of sugar. yeah.
(01:08:17.134)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. So like when you're doing your easy recovery runs, are you ever doing gut training during those, or is it just proving to be plenty? I mean, you're doing enough quality sessions per week, I imagine there's probably enough opportunities to practice that outside of the easy runs. But are you ever doing that with your weekday runs that there's no quality work, just easy running mileage?
(01:08:42.294)
Yeah, I've been trying to get a lot more particular, like writing down what to have the night before, pre workout, and then during the workout, and then also like getting a lot more particular for easy runs too. I think I used to just vibe code it all all the time where just grab a random snack and just eat that or I even used to, you know, run with a snack and not eat breakfast and then for the thirst first thirty minutes like previous marathon blocks and then just eat it part way through 'cause I, you know, felt
guilty for how much food I ate the day before or something like that. So maladaptive behaviors that I would not recommend for other people. and I think earlier in this block I was like, okay, well I'd like to work on my body composition. I did tell my coach that and he's like, yeah, well like we just want to fuel for, you know, fuel for the demands of the workout, fuel for the demands of the day and everything will follow. I've dropped quite a bit of weight throughout this block.
But I think that's just just by following the process really. And then one thing, yeah, Brandt said, which, you know, this is I guess kudos to him and I think I've noticed a small difference, is like even just carrying a snack. So I'll like some sort of a really small gel or even like a pack of gummies, or even brought something like a fruit roll up or something like that. And I'll I'll eat that forty-five minutes into my morning morning run. because again I I I bake in those
harder strides at the end of the run. and so I think it helps a little bit in terms of not dipping too much into glycogen stores since that morning run is already ninety minutes and then we're adding strides and and I even do drills. So it's like the time window of going without breakfast is pretty long. But I'll still have breakfast before that too. So I guess you could think of that as gut training. It feels like nothing to me compared to what I do in the long run. But
Yeah, maybe that's like a half percent or for you know performance optimization just within that.
(01:10:42.698)
Awesome. Well, Tom, this has been really great to kind of hear everything that goes into your training, your race day prep and all that stuff. before I let you go though, do you mind sharing with the listeners where they can find you, socials, websites or anything like that? I know you're actively coaching as well.
(01:11:01.76)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, man, coaching is another thing that I do. you know, I guess full time or or part part time, whatever you want to call it. I've got a great pod of athletes. Currently I'm at max capacity, at least until after the Chicago Marathon, just 'cause I need to to focus and lock in a bit. But yeah, I'm on a team run run is our coaching platform. you know, Brandt is if I if I don't have capacity, I'll refer people to Brandt or his his wife or
Or probably if you're not at full capacity. but Brandon, his wife are having a kid right now too. So yeah, maybe not taking on athletes. on Instagram I'm Nobbs dot not dot Nobbs. My last name is N O B B S. And yeah, I'm always open to chatting with athletes. I love when people are just passionate about running and they send me a DM and they have some, you know, very niche question that they want answered. So
I'll try to answer those and yeah, always happy to chat with the other runners out there.
(01:12:04.672)
Awesome. Well I'll make sure to link all that stuff in the show notes so listeners can head down there and follow you and check out your stuff. I'll put one last plug in for your Strava page. I think it's ever since John Courier took his offline, it's like we need to fill that gap of these low two hour marathons publicly displaying all of their training.
(01:12:23.352)
Yeah, well I got splits on there, all my runs are on there. I sometimes come up with, you know, very cryptic captions and stuff like that. I I I I had a jab at Rory the other day as well on one of my captions. So yeah, occasionally we have some fun on Strava.
(01:12:40.93)
Very cool. Awesome, Tom. Well, thanks again for taking some time.
(01:12:44.394)
Awesome, yeah. Thanks so Zach.
(01:12:48.792)
Thanks for tuning into this episode of the Human Performance Outliers Podcast with Zach Bitter.