Episode 496: Fueling Your Ultra: Strategies & Challenges | Vic Johnson
Vic Johnson shares the practical limits of high-carb strategies, discusses how carbohydrate needs can exceed what the gut can absorb, especially under heat and high intensity. Vic shares typical successful ranges, why hotter races and faster pacing worsen digestion, and emphasizes consistent intake over large boluses that can trigger GI issues. They discuss individualizing targets for mid-pack runners, finding a personal carb “cap” in training then scaling back for race day, sex differences (body size, culture, psychology), links between GI issues and disordered eating, the role of day-to-day carb intake in building intestinal transporters, and practical choices between drink mix vs gels.
Vic Johnson: mountainsportsnutrition.com | IG: @mountain.sports.dietitian
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Podcast Summary: Endurance Fueling with Vic (Mountain Sports Nutrition)
High-Carb Strategies & GI Limits
High carb targets (e.g., 150 g/hour) can contribute to GI issues under race stress, even if muscles can theoretically use that much; absorption into the bloodstream is the real bottleneck.
At Western States intensity/duration, successful top athletes rarely sustain more than ~110–115 g/hour consistently. Most top performers fall in the 70–90 g/hour range; women’s fields are often lower (around 60–65 g/hour at the low end).
Heat, high intensity, and altitude reduce blood flow to the gut, lowering tolerance. Cooler conditions allow higher concentrations more safely.
Going out too hard early compounds fueling problems; easing into both pace and intake is generally preferable.
Consistency Over Peaks & Valleys
Steady, moderate intake across the race is better than high early boluses followed by big drop-offs. Overdoing it early often leads to lasting nausea, vomiting, or diarrhea that is hard to recover from.
Some elites (e.g., Tom Evans, Ruth Croft at UTMB) successfully use large boluses, but this is not transferable to most runners.
Ideal is finding a sustainable number in training and slightly backing it off for race day to preserve consistency over many hours.
Practical Approach for Most Runners
Mid- and back-of-pack runners (20–30+ hour finishes) should prioritize what their gut can actually process over theoretical oxidation needs. Longer time on feet increases digestive stress.
Start from current tolerance (often 40–60 g/hour for many), gradually increase in long runs, find the practical ceiling, then race a bit below it.
Gut training is limited by the fact that most people rarely run >4–5 hours in training; race-day issues often only appear beyond that.
Men vs. Women & Psychological Factors
Women typically take in less than men at the top of fields. Oxidation differences are modest; larger body size (and thus larger gut surface area) in men is likely a bigger factor. Psychological/cultural pressures around food and body image also play a role.
History of disordered eating strongly correlates with ongoing GI problems; the gut is a “use it or lose it” muscular system.
Day-to-Day Nutrition & Gut Adaptation
Most carbohydrate transporters (SGLT1 for glucose, GLUT5 for fructose) are upregulated by overall daily carb intake, not just training fueling. Aim for ≥5 g carbs/kg body weight daily (more with high volume).
Gastric emptying improves with habitually larger food volumes; intestinal transporters adapt relatively quickly (often a few weeks of focused higher intake).
Gradual increases (5–15 g/hour per week on long runs) protect training quality while building tolerance.
Gels, Drinks, Ratios & Real Food
Hitting fluid, sodium, and carb targets matters more than the exact delivery method (drink mix vs. gels + water). Preference and logistics decide the mix; many athletes use both.
Glucose:fructose ratios (2:1 vs. closer to 1:0.8) matter less once the gut is trained, because both transporter types increase.
Candy or soda can work in training but often causes issues over long durations due to acidity, gums, and additives. Purpose-built sports products are cleaner for race day.
Energy Availability, REDs & Timing
Long-term physical activity level appears constrained partly by the gut’s ability to process enough energy (Pontzer’s ~2.5× RMR concept). Extreme daily intakes are possible short-term (e.g., 100-mile races) but not indefinitely.
Relative Energy Deficiency in Sport (REDs) is not only about total calories but also nutrient quality and timing. Under-fueling around hard sessions (especially morning training after an overnight fast) impairs recovery and next-day readiness.
Back-to-back hard sessions make pre-, during-, and post-fueling especially critical because glycogen resynthesis is slow.
Female athletes (and those with REDs history) generally have less margin for within-day energy deficits than male athletes.
Closing Notes
Vic emphasizes individualized targets based on experience, race conditions, and what the athlete can actually tolerate and prefer late in long efforts.
He offers 1:1 nutrition coaching (typically starting with a 16-week program) and a self-paced online course via Instagram (@mountain.sports.dietician) and mountainsportsnutrition.com.
Hydration and electrolytes were flagged as a separate future episode topic.
Episode Transcript:
All right, Vic, I'm excited to have you on the show to chat about some endurance fueling today. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me on. Yeah. May- maybe we kick things off hot and just ask you, did David Roche's 150 gram per hour fueling strategy- ... cost Hans Choy the Western States 100 win? Loaded question right out the gate.
Yeah. Yeah. We're putting the heat on right out the It's really interesting 'cause- You don't have to answer that, by the way, 'cause I don't even know the accuracy of it, so Well, well, it was interesting 'cause I, I was talking to David after where y- we, we were crewing Tara at Rucky Chucky River, and Hans dropped right there.
And so we saw him come in, and David was there. And, and so I was actually talking to David as we were waiting for the shuttle out of there. Um, and we were talking about, you know, potential causes, potential issues. And I don't, I don't know if that was the primary cause. Obviously, they were going out so fast and, and so hot- Mm-hmm
and, you know, the whole system is, is stressed in, in those conditions. Um, but yeah, I think that could definitely be a variable where there's really high carb fueling. Um, and even though the body can use that and might need it at those intensities, can you actually get it into the bloodstream is the challenge, and that can cause all sorts of GI issues if, if that system's already stressed.
So I mean, I know you kind of jokingly asked that, but I think it's a good point. I think-- I've been talking about that with a lot of my athletes where- Like, what your, what your muscles need and can use and what's, what would be beneficial to have in the bloodstream is one thing, but then getting it into the bloodstream is an entirely different thing, and lots of times those don't match.
Mm-hmm. And we kind of are limited by what our gastrointestinal systems can do and how much they can process and what can they actually transport into the blood, and that's, that's where a lot of athletes run into those GI issues. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and minus the absurdity of the question, I did think it was kind of a good kinda highlighting of maybe just what the actual topic that I wanna cover with you is with this stuff, is just this finding this limit towards getting as much carbohydrate, I guess, as you can more or less get away with or tolerate and kinda finding that line, 'cause it is an interesting experiment within the sport of ultrarunning because we have all these variables of race day oftentimes being quite a bit further than anyone's done in, in their training program outside of maybe some tune-up races.
And then it's also this kind of growing movement, too. It's kind of like this ongoing thing of kinda testing where these are at, so we're always gonna have those extremes or people that maybe have some advantages with respect to what they can tolerate. Maybe David's an example of that on the high end.
But then where does that end up settling for the average person, even if we're talking the average grouping of people finishing in the top 10 of Western States? And that's one thing I've been trying to pay attention to closely with the sport is are we starting to see any sort of signals with some of the top performers in the sport with respect to a tighter range of carb intake that someone would maybe expect to try to get to?
Yeah, I think so. I, I think, you know, working with some of those individuals, both in the men's and, and women's fields, um, there are kind of, averages that I would say most of them are able to tolerate, um, and then kind of the, the extreme ends of that range as well. Um, and I would say, I don't know in a s- in a race like Western States, um- I would say that the athletes fueling with the most amount of carbs per hour consistently the whole race probably tops out at about 110, 115 successfully.
Um, much higher than that, you're gonna see GI issues for, for, at that intensity for that long. Um, lower end of the range, I would guess there would probably be some, most, most likely some of the, in the women's field, um, closer to that 65 grams an hour average, maybe even 60. Um, and that would be kind of at the lower end of that range.
Some would s- I would say probably most of them are probably between 70 and 90, somewhere in there. Um, so yeah, you can... Yeah, it just goes back to what we were talking about before, like it would be awesome if we, you know, if you had an IV in your arm and you could just- Right ... pump in 120, 130 grams an hour, sure, why not?
Like I, I think, I think they could oxidize that much. Their muscles could actually use that much. But we can't have an IV in the arm, and we've gotta use the system that we have, and it's just so hard in the heat at that intensity for that duration. Um, so yeah Are you seeing that s- shift a bit with temperature and things like that?
'Cause Western States is, on average, probably a little bit of a warmer race, especially when we're looking at courses that would have any sort of a mountain component to it. Do you see people pushing a bit higher on a course or a race where there's room temperature as the peak? Yes. Yes.
Although we maybe had that at Western States this year, so. Yeah, I mean, Western-- Yeah, it was still so hot, though. Um, yeah, I mean, that's, that's one of the biggest challenges with digestion, is that, you know, when we have a, a really hot race, a lot of our blood flow is going towards the skin to, to help us sweat.
A lot of that blood flow, especially at those intensities, is also diverted to the bigger working muscles, um, to take oxygen to the, to those muscles. And so our digestive tracts are left with not a lot of blood flow to help that muscle group. Um, and so that's worse in the heat. And I, I usually do suggest to my athletes to not go super, super high-carb fueling, um, in hotter races, also at higher altitude races, that sort of thing.
Um, so you can usually get away with a little bit more concentration, higher carbohydrate concentrations, um, in lower temperatures for sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and another thing you said actually kinda brings up an interesting thing that I've been thinking a lot about for quite a while actually now, is just the pacing and how that impacts things.
Because, like you were, like, referencing, as you increase that intensity, you are creating more complications within that system and likely what you can tolerate for longer durations of time. I have a theory that I think the front packs in a lot of these ultras are still going out a little bit too fast, and I think we see that- Hmm
with respect to their-- You know, if we just try to break down their pacing and compare it to other endurance sports, I think we see a little bit too much of a positive split even with these big performances, and it's really just gonna take somebody with enough talent and training to expose that before we really see any sort of shift with it.
But I do wonder how much that impacts the fueling strategy out of the way, 'cause I would think if we go back to my example with Hans, Hans went out very hard, and I think- So fast ... a lot of people looked at that maybe as the trigger. But then, you know, it's always one of those things where one mistake isn't always the thing that- penalizes you, it could be that that mistake opens up a whole bunch of other issues that come in that wouldn't have been there otherwise.
So maybe if Hans is a little more conservative early on, maybe the fueling he's taking in isn't as problematic to the point where he has a digestive issue. Potentially. Yeah, I mean, it's so hard to look back and say "This is where it went wrong," right? 'Cause there's so many variables, right?
Mm. And, and this is another thing I was talking about with David, like, how, how was hydration on the day? How- what was s- sodium concentration like? Like, how did all of those variables play into it as well? Um, but yeah, I think I, I'm with you. I think a lot of athletes probably go out a little too fast.
Um, and I feel like, I don't know if there's research to back this up, but I feel like it takes a minute for your system to kinda settle into "Okay, we're, we're running this hard. We're eating this much." And I think if you just hit it too much too fast with all of these variables at once right out the gate, especially if the athlete has eaten a big breakfast or something like that and they've still got stuff in their stomach it can go wrong pretty quickly.
Um, and I, I kind of like it when athletes kind of ease into the pace, ease into the fueling a little bit more gradually, I think. That's a great point. It was something I was gonna ask you about, too. Do you advise a ramp-up period to get to those totals that someone's gonna try to hit? Is there, say someone's targeting 90 grams per hour.
Are you gonna have them do 45 that first hour, and then maybe work up to 90? Or is there a sorta formula that you have for that? Or is it really individual? It's pretty individualized, but, but h- I, I honestly do that more with fluid intake. Um, you know, let's say heat of the day they're gonna be taking in a liter of fluid an hour.
Um, well, if they're starting at 5:00 AM, 6:00 AM, whatever the race is, it's not that hot yet. They're starting to get hydrated. Maybe we only go 500 milliliters an hour for that first hour or two until it starts to ramp up, and then we kinda scale the fluid up a little bit, too. Carbs are a little more static than that, I feel like.
That being said, if an athlete has a pre-race gel, which a lotta my athletes will do a gel 15, 20 minutes before the race starts, um, we can kinda count that, in air quotes, towards that first hour average intake. And so maybe, you know, if they're aiming for 90 grams an hour, and they already did a 30 gram gel before the start of the race, maybe we're only aiming for 60 grams an hour in that first hour of actual racing, and then we kind of ease into it, um, that way.
So, so yeah. I guess, I guess we do a little bit. Um, it-- There's a, there's also just a lot of chaos and, like- focusing that needs to happen at the beginning of the race, and I don't want athletes, like, getting caught up in trying to pull a gel out and unwrap it and, you know, while they're trying to find their positioning and, and so that can help by, you know, not, not having to focus so much on that fueling the first hour.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. That leads me to another thing that I've been thinking a lot about, too, and one of the catalysts to me starting to think about this more was precision fuel and hydration. They started something a few years ago where their athletes and individuals they would be working with would-- They would publish their race fueling as best they could, and I found that really interesting 'cause it wasn't just-- 'Cause we're talking about grams per hour or averages as if it's not this half to full day experience and that there's- Yeah
probably some variability within that. And I find it really interesting whenever they report that just to kinda look at that and be like, "Okay, well, how did that flow go?" Let's say they hit 90 grams per hour or 100 grams per hour. Like, how did that all average out to get there? Were these big peaks?
Are these valleys in there? And then what were the reasons for that? Was that strategic? Was that just situational adapt-adaptability because things happened? And I, I was w- I'm kind of wondering about that sort of a strategy from that angle, and then as well, I had Jeff Magavero on. It was a while ago at this point.
It was at some point after Western States, not this year, but the year prior, where we were talking about his fueling strategy compared to mine, 'cause we had a pretty similar average carbohydrate intake. But he had these larger boluses and then these smaller amounts, and then at the end, he kinda was a little- Mm.
He was sitting below average 'cause he had sort of, I guess, banked some carbohydrate intake to get to that average. Whereas my, at the time, more recent 100-mile race, I was-- I averaged 95.6 grams per hour, and I was, like, basically right at 90 to 100 grams every hour. There was very little variability. Mm-hmm.
And one thought that we were kind of just considering was, like, is-- If, if you have a ceiling, is it something where if you exceed that ceiling for long enough, you're just gonna return to the norm by your body saying, "Yeah, no more than, say, 60, 70 grams for the next couple hours," and you kinda get to the same spot versus someone like me who's still pretty high with the fueling, but I'm not gonna try to push above that average for, for any given hour?
I think your approach makes more sense, in my opinion. Um, I, and I tell my athletes this often. I would rather you be, like, lower carb, which it's crazy how we talk about this now 'cause, like- Oh, I still feel like 75, 80 grams of carbs an hour is that's a lot of carbs, right? Mm-hmm. To, to get through the digestive tract, and that's seen as like low carb now, and it's like, well-
it's not really. You don't have to be hitting 150 grams of carbs to be considered like high carb fueling, like adequate carb fueling. Um, but I tell my athletes, like, yeah, I would way rather you hit a number consistently the whole race, and like maybe that is only 65 or 70 grams an hour, especially at these like something like Leadville or, or Hardrock or something like high elevation races in the heat, um, than yeah, let's say you did 120 grams an hour for the first four hours but then dropped off to 40, maybe 30, because that, honestly, that happens a lot where an athlete will overdo it, they'll stress out that gastrointestinal system, so they'll either have slow gastric emptying or poor absorption in the intestines, and they'll get upper GI or lower GI issues, vomiting, nausea, or, and/or diarrhea, you know, gas, bloating, all of those things.
And, and, and then at that point, it's really hard to come back from that, right? It's, it's... You're, you're probably kind of facing that in some way, shape, or form for the rest of the race, and that sucks. And I would rather an athlete be like, "Well, yeah, I was, I was maybe under where my maximum could be, um, but I was able to consistently do that the whole race."
And in my opinion, I think that's way more conducive to consistent energy intake and, and output. Um- Mm-hmm ... even if maybe the averages even come out to the same you know, you average it out over the course of the race I would still rather that be more consistent than really high and then really low.
Um- Mm-hmm ... or even a couple really highs and a couple really lows. I- I'd rather it be pretty even keel throughout. Yeah. And I should add some context to it too, 'cause Jeff and I had a similar average, but our courses and the environment we were in could not have been any more different for the most part.
Yeah. So I did have some advantages there. I was on a two-mile loop, and the temperature was pretty static all day, whereas Jeff was- That does make a difference ... running through the, yeah, the varied terrain of Western states with a much wider temperature range. And, and then, you know, I'm coming by my crew every two miles, which, you know, I'm...
So I'm g- having access to refuel up on water and hydration and nutrition, all that stuff every, you know, 14, 15 minutes essentially. So, that's a different scenario than when you're, you're running from aid station to aid station in varied terrain and, and, and weather and things like that. So, sometimes it's like what looks perfect on paper isn't what actually you have available to you in practice given the circumstances.
Yeah. And that's ac- y- that's absolutely true. No one ever is just super, super even the whole race, and that's okay. That's okay. It is kinda gonna have some peaks and valleys, and it's not gonna be linear, and that's, that's fine. Um- Mm-hmm ... but the, the big, the big variability is, is what I usually try to avoid.
But it, but it is interesting 'cause, 'cause looking at, like- Tom Evans and, and Ruth, Ruth Croft, how they fueled UTMB last year was really interesting. Um, and they're working with very talented dieticians as well. Um, but they, they were kind of public about how they fueled as well, and it was a lot of "Okay, before this big climb we're gonna slam four gels at the aid station."
And it's I'm glad that worked for them, and, and I think if they train that well, and obviously they're unique individuals compared to the general population in, in lots of ways, but i- you know, if they practice that and their systems can handle that, great. But I don't think that the majority of us can take that and say, "Well, I'm gonna go do that too."
Um, most people would have a terrible time doing that. Um, and it wouldn't be very conducive to, to good racing for most. A- and that's a perfect transition because I was going to try to bring it back to the average ultra runner, 'cause right now we've been focusing kind of on the fast end of the field, the higher gar- carbon takes as a result of workload and things like that, which I think is a good starting point in general 'cause it kinda shows us, like, where the limits have been tested.
But ultimately, most people listening to this podcast episode are going to be like, "Hey, well that's not me, so what does this mean?" Yeah. And, and that's where I actually find, I find these kind of accelerated movements to be fascinating as almost like a social experiment too because we oftentimes see the people at the top of the races that are hitting these higher amounts and having success with it, and then maybe someone who's running 50 to 65% slower than the other- than that person, they're maybe trying to mimic that a little too closely, when in reality they're having a very different workload equation.
So what about people kind of maybe finishing a little bit more into that 20 to 30-hour range on a course like Western States? Are they thinking about their nutrition quite a bit differently with respect to totals? I would say they probably should be. Um, like there's kind of two, two parts to that equation, right?
It's like, okay, they're, they're running at a slightly maybe lower intensity potentially. Um, but that's all relative as well, right? Like their zone three or four, you know, is gonna look different than zone three and four of the athletes at the tip of the spear. Um, but it's, it's a question of like, how much are they oxidizing?
How, how many grams of carbs are they utilizing? And that's tough to know, you know, unless you get into a lab and you're, you mimic all of the same conditions and variables and training and it's almost impossible to know exactly how much you're using. Um, but especially, yeah, 20-plus hours into an ultramarathon, their body, it's not like they're going to have too many grams of carbs that their body can't use from like a, a, a ATP production standpoint, right?
Like they would benefit from 100 plus grams per hour. But really the piece of the equation that matters the most is how much can they actually get in, right? And especially for someone running for a longer period of time, just like the rest of our body systems, the digestive tract and, and stomach, that all becomes stressed, and it becomes more and more and more stressed as we run longer, right?
It's a muscular system. Um, and so it can become harder and harder to digest and absorb those, those different fuels and, and, you know, electrolytes and fluid and everything that we need to put through the system. And so, yeah, I, I usually, I usually try to just meet athletes with where they're at, and maybe we push that a little bit, push those numbers a little bit in training.
So let's say I start working with an athlete, they're getting ready for Western States and, and it's more of a, you know, a, a, a typical runner. Um, and let's say they're used to taking in 60 grams of carbs an hour on their long runs right now, and they're pretty comfortable with that. They've narrowed it down to a few different fuel sources, drinks or gels or whatever, some conglomeration of that that works for them.
Um, well, I'd say, "Okay, how, how comfortable are you with that? Are there any GI issues that pop up around either hour five or six, or where stuff usually starts to show up for some people?" Um, and if there's not, then let's say, "Okay, let's, let's push those numbers a little bit. Let's, on your long runs, let's try to go up to 70, 75, maybe even 80 in the next couple of months before this race."
And if they're able to do that successfully, then we can push those numbers a little bit in the race. Um, a- and a lot of times I like to f- try to find where that cap is. "Okay, in the long run, let's go 90. Okay, you're going out for four hours, five hours. That last hour, how did things feel?" I was starting to kind of feel a little bit nauseated," um, or, "It was terrible.
I got diarrhea, you know, had to stop the run," whatever. It's like, okay, that's... We probably can't do that much- ... on race day, right? Or alternatively, maybe they're like, "Yeah, 90 was actually fine. Who knows what would have happened at hour seven, eight, nine, 10," you know? Um, but then for the actual race, we will say, "Okay, in training we've shown that we can do 85, 90 grams an hour pretty consistently and you're okay at that.
For the race, to be able to fuel consistently the whole race, maybe let's back that off to 75 for the race, um, on average." And it's not gonna be exactly 75 every hour, and that's fine. But, we kind of find the max and scale it back a little bit for the race is usually what I like to do. Yeah, no, that makes sense.
And you highlighted something that's really interesting with this, this whole approach is you can go and train your gut to tolerate, and that's maybe less specific to whether someone is fast or a little bit further back in the field. But then you also have to consider how long you're gonna be out there.
'Cause if we take someone like, say, Vincent Boullard, maybe he's doing 100 grams per hour and he's out there for roughly 14 hours, but what happens if he's doing 100 grams per hour for 20 hours or 25 hours? It's like he may have a digestive issue at that point. So then the person who maybe they say, "Well, in training I was able to do 100 grams per hour too," but if you're 10 hours behind behind Vincent, then you have to know that you're, you're running 100 grams through your body for an ex- extra 10 hours, and that may- Yeah
create some issues that will show up. So I like you looking at it through that lens, 'cause it's not quite as simple as my digestive tract can handle this. 'Cause maybe it can last for 14 hours, but unfortunately your race isn't. Unfortunately for all of us essentially- ... our races aren't done at 14 hours. Right.
And that's one of the hardest parts of, of practicing all of this and training all of this, is like even in a 100-mile training block, how many runs are you doing that are over five hours? Probably not that many, right? Um, I mean, I know I'm not. You, you, you might be doing more than that, but, but, but a lot of people aren't, right?
They're, they're limited to kinda that, that... Their experiment is limited by their long runs, right? Because they might not have any issues. And, and, and so many, so many people come to work with me and come ask me these questions of "Okay, I only see these issues in races," but it's only because they're going longer than four or five hours in ra- That's the only time they're going longer than that.
And so it's really hard to, like- simulate getting to that point and troubleshoot it. You have to really kinda use your races to troubleshoot and, and to figure out what's going wrong, and you kinda won't know if what you're doing to change things is gonna work until you race again. And, and that's, that's challenging.
Um, and it's just kinda part of the sport, and I guess if it were super easy, it wouldn't be as fun of a sport, right? That's why we do it, right, is because it's, it's a challenge and it's kind of an adventure every time to kinda see, all right, how are all of these variables gonna work together on race day this time?
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, one other thing you mentioned earlier that I wanted to circle back to, 'cause it's a- another topic that I found really interesting, and it's something I think we, we stand to really help a lot of people by learning more about is that variance that we typically see between men and women with respect- Mm
to their fueling totals. It's just one of those things where when we just look at the race data and the field, when we, when you take those top 10 finishers and what's been reported, it's pretty consistent that the women are doing less than the men. Do we know why that is? Is there anything that is done in practice differently or just nat- or just genetically perhaps that, that results in that?
Or, I'm just curious about- Yeah ... some of, some of that reasoning. Yeah, I think there's a couple different things at play there. Um, there has been some research on just oxidation rates and, and, um, those honestly aren't that different between men and women. Um, I mean, there's kind of a, a wide range on, i- in both.
Um- We do know that women are a little bit better at burning fat as fuel at higher intensities. Um, a little higher ratio of their energy output comes from fat burning, which is an advantage I feel like, but it's only, it's only slightly different, and so it's not that big of a variable. I honestly feel like probably the biggest thing at play is so much of that digestion depends on the surface mass of the system that you have.
And so a bigger stomach and bigger intestines, like longer intestines, you're probably going to be able to have more of those transporters moving things. And so usually, and this isn't always the case, but usually men are bigger than women, and therefore their systems are a little bit bigger and, and can probably handle higher volumes of fluids and carbs and sodium and all of that stuff.
So that's probably the biggest variable at play. Um, I also think there's probably a big psychological aspect and, you know, it's manly to eat a bunch and, and- Yeah ... eat a lot, you know, and, and take in higher volumes and maybe that's not quite as feminine to do, which is, is dumb. Those are total just social constructs that don't actually- Mm
carry any weight. Um, but I think there is kind of y- you know, it, it's-- there's a lot of body image issues in, in the sport, both men and women. But I think culturally there's a lot of pressure for women to look and, and eat and have a relationship with food that may not be conducive to, to adequate fueling all of the time, and that's not their fault.
It's just the dumb society that we live in. Um, but I think that's also probably at play here. Mm-hmm. It's a great point, and I did talk to David Rocha about that a bit when he was on the podcast last 'cause we were just kinda looking at the variance and things like that and what impacts what you're able to do.
And one thing he did mention was that there is a big psychological component to this where if you've had a relationship with food that was unhealthy historically, that actually can present a pretty big hurdle. You wouldn't think that that would necessarily influence things, but it does. And you could get a-- essentially just get a digestive issue with higher amounts of intake because of that psychological stress that you've placed upon the actual act of consuming that much product at any given time.
Absolutely. And, and not only that part of it, but, but a lot of, a lot of athletes who have consistent gastrointestinal issues, um, it's very... I don't know if there's any research on this, but i- it's very correlated with previous disordered eating. Um, and I'm sure there's that psychological aspect, but, but also just physiologically.
Again, that, that whole system, your, your stomach and intestines, it's all a muscular system and, and it's kind of a, use it or lose it sort of situation. A- and not that you can't build that back up, um, but if that system isn't used to processing a lot of stuff, even in your day to- whether that's in your day-to-day or during running or both of those, then it's gonna be challenged processing a lot of stuff while you're running, right?
Um, and so addressing that first and foremost is huge for a lot of these athletes. And, and working with mental health specialists and, and trying to overcome, um, maybe the negative aspects of their relationship with, with food and, and, and body image and, and stuff like that can be very powerful for athletes who are trying to fuel well in sport Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's that, that is another thing that I'm always curious about too, 'cause we think of gut training, I think of the sport as an act that you're doing during your workouts. "I'm going out for this run. I'm gonna practice my fueling strategy, and the more I expose it to that, the better it gets."
And I think that's a pretty reasonable assumption and, and likely very accurate. But there is also just the, the majority of your food is coming into your body, and your body's processing and digesting it through your meals and everything you're eating outside of that training session. So I do wonder what kind of tools and things can be done with just eating in general to build up a better tolerance to food during a run.
Is it like, you know, just the ability to eat large volumes of food more frequently going to be something that actually helps you on race day get in more, more grams per hour just because of that stress you've put the body through for that historically? 100%. Yeah, I think that's a massive piece that maybe isn't as sexy or glamorous.
People don't wanna talk about their meals as much. It's just not as, quite as high performance as talking about the latest, yeah, 120 grams per hour lactate gels or sodium bicarb. You know, there's, there's all sorts of flashy, shiny things that... And, and for good reason, some of those things work.
Um, but it's more boring to talk about meal planning and be like, "Okay, what are you..." You know, the oats you're eating for breakfast aren't sexy, right? That's just a bowl- Mm ... of oatmeal, and it's yeah, that's not that exciting. But it's so important, and, and the biggest reason for that being is that the more carbs that you eat in your day-to-day, you will build more of those transporters that move carbohydrate into the bloodstream from the intestines.
And so there's, there's basically two primary transporters there: one for glucose and one for fructose, and you make more of those the more carbs you eat. And, and so yes, fueling during long runs and speed work, very important, right? You need to dial that in, of course. And that's going to increase those transporters as well.
But really, to your point most of the carbs you're eating are gonna come from outside of running. They're gonna come from your meals and your snacks, and, and that's one of the reasons why- The research has been pretty consistent with endurance athletes, like we should be aiming for at least five grams per kilo of carbs per, per day, um, for athletes even more depending on how much training volume you're getting.
Um, and that's one of the main reasons is because it can make it so much easier to digest and absorb those carbs when you are actually running. Mm-hmm. Yeah. One other thing I wanted to ask you about too is just kinda like timelines that you like to kinda practice some of this stuff with, because I wanna be careful that I don't use my own experience too, too just liberally with this with other people- Mm
because it's something where, you know, I did low carb for quite a while. Um, and I was taking in like somewhere around 40, maybe 50 grams of carbs per hour on race day. So when I decided to try high carb- Mm-hmm ... there was changing the, you know, your day-to-day eating patterns, and then there was the introduction of the workout fueling that was different and all that sorta stuff.
And I was pretty nervous about just how this was gonna play out on race day for the first time, 'cause I didn't have any experience with it. And I actually found that that process went pretty fast for me, where I s- I basically switched the dietary stuff with my normal eating in and then started gradually increasing my intra-workout fueling with carbohydrates to the point whereby by the time I did my last long run, I hit around 100 grams per hour in that.
And then it went perfectly on race day. I couldn't have possibly imagined a better fuel situation with respect to how easily it went by. But- I don't- I wonder sometimes if part of that is because, like, when I was low carb, I was never really food phobic. Um, thankfully I haven't- Mm ... really struggled with any sort of disordered eating, so I was always eating a lot.
It just was a macronutrient shift for me. So maybe I shifted- Yeah ... over pretty easily because of that, versus if someone is coming in with an eating disorder background, they may have a longer timeline than I would. I think you're probably right. A big piece of that puzzle, I, I kind of break it down into two main parts.
One of those pieces is gastric emptying, so how fast stuff is emptying from your stomach. And if you're just used to eating a large volume of food your stomach's gonna get good at that. It doesn't really matter as much what that food is made of, you know, what the macronutrient ratios are.
Um, and then the other piece of that puzzle is those transporters in your intestines. And, and yeah, I think if someone is purposeful about it and increases those carbs in their day-to-day and is, is, you know, very mindful of gradually increasing the grams per hour during long runs and speed work and stuff like that, it usually only takes a couple of weeks for the in- the in- those intestinal transporters to be like, "Oh, there's a lot more carbs coming into the system.
We've gotta get good at processing those carbs and moving them into, into the, into the bloodstream." And I think, yeah, it usually really only does take a few weeks. So, and you, you... I see that a lot with athletes who I don't know, off-season maybe they're a little bit more lax about their fueling and it's like they're doing long adventures in the mountains that are lower intensity and they're just like, "Yeah, I've maybe been getting in 40, 50, 60 grams of carbs an hour just kind of playing in the mountains."
And that's fine for that sort of thing. Um, but then it's like, "Okay, I've got this race coming up. We need to get good at processing these carbs," and it usually only takes a few weeks off, of really focused, um, fueling during long runs and speed work. Okay. That's really interesting how fast that is. I would say, well, one thing I would be curious about with that too is, are there jumps in that thought that you're paying attention to?
'Cause I would imagine if somebody had historically been doing 40, 50 grams per hour, do you normally say, "Okay, let's spend a couple weeks trying 60, 65, and then we'll try 65, 80, and just kinda keep pushing that up slowly just to find where those pinch points are," just to... Yeah, I, my, my thought is like, 'cause we're, we're, we're thinking about race day and we're thinking about trying things in training.
At the end of the day, you wanna preserve the quality of your training, and if you're changing the inputs too drastically, if all of a sudden you start blowing your workouts up with the same digestive issues you're trying to avoid on race day. Yeah, totally. And, and you don't wanna, you don't wanna ruin a long run or a speed workout because the adaptations that you're making from that work is obviously the most important part of your training, right?
Um, but yeah, if you're going gradually, you know, you're upping it by 5 to 15 grams a week on your long runs or something like that, you're probably okay. And so many of the athletes who when they start out with me, they're like, "Yeah, I've been doing 40 or 50 grams an hour," it's because they don't even know that they should be doing more, or, or maybe they know that, but they haven't even calculated what they're doing.
They're just like, "Yeah, I kind of do this, you know, I, I take in these amounts of gels on a, on a run. I grab three gels 'cause I'm gonna be out there for this long." And it's like they're not very calculated with it. Mm. And so their systems could handle more than that. They just don't really, they haven't really seen that their systems can.
And it's like, well, okay, it doesn't sound like you've had any major GI issues with where you've been fueling. Let's hit at least 65 on this next long run and see how you feel." And they're like, "Yeah, I'm great." So the next one we're like, "Okay, let's go 75, see how you feel." And they're like, "Yeah, I'm great."
So it's not that hard to get up to 90 with those people. It's harder when they've when they come into coaching with specific GI issues. It's like, "Okay, I'm always getting nauseated," um, or, "I'm always having diarrhea." A- and so those are a little harder to pick apart, and we do need to go a little bit more gradual with those, those athletes.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point, 'cause I think just intuitively I always find with people that aren't paying any attention is that they're like, they know they should be fueling, but they haven't really given thought to, like- Yeah ... the actual numbers behind it. And intuitively it's one to two gels per hour just seems like it kind of, naturally works within that flow of-
I know I should be eating, but I don't th- I haven't think about how much, and that's, you know, that's gonna maybe get you to 40 grams per hour or something like that. But, um, once you start thinking, "Okay, I have to be deliberate about this," and, and maybe looking at it every 10, 15 minutes, that's just a little bit of a different mindset to shift towards.
Yeah. And it's not easy, right? I, I don't know. I, I guess after you've done it for a certain amount of time it just kinda feels normal to do that. Um, but yeah, y- you have to get used to pulling stuff out of your vest or your belt and, and unwrapping it while you're running hard. It's not, I don't know, it's not intuitive, it's not easy.
Um, but the more you practice it, the better you can get at it, for sure. Mm-hmm. Are you, are you us- playing around much with the ratios between liquid carbohydrates through their drinks versus gels much, or is that gonna be a very individual experience? Yeah, that's such a good question, and, and it's one I get a lot from my athletes.
Um, a- it really comes down to a whole other can of worms, which we can get into if you want to, but, um, the, the whole hydration component, right? Mm-hmm. Um, that really, how I kinda break it down, there's kinda four primary variables that I'm working on with athletes with- within the intra-racing, m- fueling and hydration that they need to be worrying about.
One is fluid intake, total fluid intake. One is electrolyte intake, mostly talking about sodium. Um, one is carbohydrate and other fuel sources, depending on the race, but mostly carbs. And then the last one is ergogenic aids, right? And so, as, as I'm working with an athlete, we're kind of identifying their targets for each of those, and that's based on a lot of different data sets and, and, you know, the athlete's experience.
Um, but once we identify those targets, I care less about how those targets are reached, right? And, and I do care about how, and, and it depends on, on the race and their preferences and that sort of thing. But if that's through... You know, let's, let's say the target, just for ease of numbers, let's say it's 500 milliliters of fluid per hour and 60 grams of carbs per hour, okay?
Just as an example. Um, I don't really care if that's one flask of a drink mix that has 500 milliliters of fluid mixed with 60 grams of drink mix Great. They're getting both of those things. Or if that's a flask of water and two 30 gram gels. It matters less in my opinion. Now, some people just tolerate different brands or different products differently too.
Um, and different products and depending on what, you know, what sugars they're using, that sort of thing, they have differences like osmolarities and, and how they empty from the stomach and how they're absorbed. So all of those can, can cause slight variations. But in general, if they're hitting their, their hourly numbers, the targets that we've set, it matters a little bit less about where they're getting that from.
It- it's more about like the logistics of the race and what they wanna be carrying and, you know, are they using poles so drinking out of their flask is gonna be easier than unwrapping a gel or something like that. You know, like all of those different variables that play into it. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a great point.
I think that fluid per hour total oftentimes influences the way I structure things quite a bit because- Mm-hmm ... one liter per hour versus 500 milliliters, if, if I have a c- a concentration I really like, you know, that could be a, a doubling in the warmer temperatures versus a halving in the cooling and then, you know, that makes a difference with how you're gonna supplement with gels alongside if you're still targeting that same carbohydrate per hour number.
I agree. And, I think one of the most important questions to ask yourself is, "What do I feel like at the end of a really long run?" So like that last hour, and I'll ask this question all the time, is someone hands you a warm flask of water and a gel, or someone hands you a warm flask of Tailwind or Skratch or Precision or whatever you're using, Open Fuel, um- Which one are you grabbing?
What are, which, what do you want? Because they're, they're, they're the same essentially. They're gonna give you the same thing, but which, w- what are, what combo are you grabbing? And I'd say it's probably about 60% is "Oh, give me the gel and the water." The gel won't stay in my mouth for long.
It's just one, do you actually want it? Probably not, but it's like, bloop, it's done. And then you- plain water's usually pretty tolerable for most people, unless they're really far gone with the nausea. Um, but I don't know, there's probably 40% who are like, "No, late in a race, it's hot, give me the drink mix.
I can't, I can't swallow a gel." And that's just a totally individualized thing, and there's no right or wrong in my opinion. I think it's just let's prioritize whatever you're actually gonna be able to get down easily, consistently for many hours of running. Um, and most athletes end up on race day doing a little bit of both.
You know, I don't know, a lot of, a lot of my recent races I have done, like, when I see crew, I'll drink a mix for that hour 'cause I don't have to mix it. They're just handing me a bottle. But in between crew spots, I'm more of gels and water 'cause I'm refilling myself and don't wanna have to deal with a powder flask or whatever.
Um, so it, it, yeah, it just kinda depends on the individual. But, that's an important question to ask yourself is what do I actually want? What are, taste-wise, palate-wise, what am I actually able to get down? And that's what we should prioritize, for sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Great points. And the other thing I wanted to ask you about with respect to the carbohydrates is you know, a carb is a carb to some degree, but then you look at a lot of the marketing and the different stuff, and the research too, around carbohydrate types and, you know, a lot of the, the big gel distributors will base their formula off a two-to-one glucose to fructose ratio versus a one to 0.8, so a little closer to a 50/50 split.
Are you finding that that's a, a big de- a big decision that people are having to make when they're going between those two options, or is it more about let's try these out and just kinda see what your actual experience is? They think it's a big decision, but it shouldn't be. Um, I, I don't feel like it matters as much as people make it seem like it matters.
And, and the reason for that being is- That two to one ratio plays off of the typical amount of those gut transporters that we have. So usually most people have about a two to one ratio of glucose to fructose transporters, um, in their intestines just na- just naturally. Um, and so theoretically, let's say someone's fueling with 90 grams of carbs an hour, 60 of those grams are gonna use that glucose transporter, and then 30 of those grams can use a fructose transporter.
But a lot of people are pushing that 90 grams an hour mark now, and in theory it's like, okay, well, there's probably more of those fructose transporters. That's why that ratio got bumped up to one to 0.8 with some of these brands. The theory is that they've made more of those fructose transporters and are able to, to move more fructose into the bloodstream, um, than they were before.
But when you're doing that, those gut adaptation training sessions and you're fueling more with carbs on your long runs and your speed workout and your day-to-day nutrition like we were talking about, both of those carbohydrate transporters are going to increase, and you're gonna make more of SGLT1 and the GLUT5, which are both the glucose and the fructose.
So I feel like the ratio matters less. Um, you're probably gonna be able to handle both if you're fueling above 90 grams an hour and feeling okay with it. Um, it's, it's probably less of an issue than, than people need to make it Mm-hmm. Do you find them, like, when people start getting creative with their fueling and saying, "Oh, you know what?
There's all these, these gels and sports drinks on the market, but I could also just go to the convenience store and grab a bag of jelly beans" Yeah. Or soda for that matter. Yeah, I mean, I think that, I think that's okay, especially in training. I think sometimes if you are doing that for too long like the acidity of those sorts of things, it can start to mess with the acid/base balance in your stomach.
Um, and then also there's always added gums and stuff like that, that I-- I'm not, like, anti-candy at all, but I think after seven hours of Nerds gummy clusters you're gonna start to feel like, "Ooh, I can't really do Nerds gummy clusters anymore." Whereas, a gel is like, "Yeah, I-- This is made for this.
It's got nothing in it that I can't process and, and, and don't need, and it's only got what I do need." Whereas candy has all these other additives and, and things like that that aren't necessarily conducive to long-term fueling. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's kinda the sa- it's kinda the same thing with fiber where it's like fiber's generally g- good and fine- Yeah
but when you're in the middle of a race, why would you ask your body to process something that it doesn't need to to get to what you're trying to do in that specific moment? So, the sports products- Exactly ... seem to just be a little bit more dialed in. And then, like you said, you know, maybe you don't need the three, four dollar gel for every one of your grams per-- your grams during your training 'cause you can get away with some of the candy and sodas and things like that.
But on race day, you maybe wanna make sure that you're preserving that ex- that, that extension that you're gonna be asking of yourself with the fuel frequency and duration. For sure. Awesome. This has been all awesome stuff, Vic. I did have a topic that maybe we can touch on depending on how familiar you are with it, but have you looked into the Herman Pontzer research much?
No. I mean- Okay ... maybe I've heard that. I am, I'm not familiar with, with the naming of that, though. Yeah, so i- it's basically this this kind of emerging research that's looking at what they call, like your PAL or your physical activity level, and this- Mm ... sort of, kind of what we've talking about to some degree is you know, it's all cool on paper to think about I need this much energy and I send that much through, but at the end of the day, your digestive system has thresholds that it's gonna tolerate.
And it gets into this idea of there's day-to-day stuff or even week-to-week and month-to-month stuff in terms of, like, how much can you actually do from a workout standpoint- Mm ... that you can actually still continue to fuel and maintain. And his research looked at just basically is there the, is there's this average limit where beyond this we just can't expect your, essentially your digestive system to operate at a high enough capacity to be able to tolerate the workload you're asking of it, and he puts that around 2.5 your, your resting metabolic rate.
So if I'm looking at a year's worth of training and how much volume I can tolerate, on average he would say essentially, "Well, your volume tolerance is gonna get capped out on your ability to refuel that and keep that going." And then it opens up- Mm ... a whole nother question around just is that trainable?
Can you say, could someone with say a 2.5 physical activity level train that up to be closer to say, 3 or something like that over time, and then therefore be able to tolerate a higher workload 'cause they're able to meet the fueling demands of it? Um- Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, it is, it's interesting stuff.
I, I don't... I always have a hard time with it because I see these examples of athletes doing these massive training blocks for seemingly extended periods of time, and they're... I mean, the triathlons are great for this. They'll put their YouTube videos up to 7,000 calories a day. And it's like- Yeah
obviously they're probably being a little sensational with respect to that's a pretty big training day. It's unlikely they're doing 7,000 calories per day- Every day ... workload. Yeah. Every day. Yes. And, and, and I always try to mention that when I'm talking about this too, is 'cause we're talking about long-term estimates here.
We're not talking about what you could tolerate on any one given day at a 100-mile race, 'cause we know that people are taking in 10, 12,000 calories easily in some of these 100-mile races, and that would go way beyond that 2.5 multiplier. Um, but to the point you can't continually do that. You can't just do that.
It's not like the body will respond with the fuel you put into it at infinity. It's got a limiter there, and that's gonna be one of the components. And I w- I, I do struggle with it with running to some degree too, though, because it's like there's also a ton of other variables at play here that are gonna probably break down before you even reach that number for the average- Yeah
person, 'cause when we're talking about a 2.5 multiplier on your resting metabolic rate. We're talking about a pretty big workload that most people aren't training at, so then should they even care? Is this just a question that someone like Kilian Jornet may worry about, but the average person has got no reason to really be concerned with it?
I mean, I think it's really interesting, and that makes me wanna look into it more because I think that it is always a question of, like, how much is too much? And I think especially, yeah, yeah, I mean, the, the Killians and the, and the Walmsleys and the, the Walters of the sport, like They are kind of flirting with that line all the time, I think, of like- Mm-hmm
uh, you know, how much training can I get in without getting injured, right? Or how much training can I get in without, you know, flat lining and feeling like crap all the time and low energy. Um, and I, I always jokingly say there's no such thing as over-training, it's just under-fueling really. Mm-hmm. Um, but obviously they're, that's, that's not necessarily true.
There's a limit to that too, as Herman's trying to tell us. There's a limit, there's a limit to that, and it, it sounds like this is kinda digging into that, of how much- Mm-hmm ... can we actually consistently eat per day. Um, and can it be the right thing too? Because I don't know wh- I'm sure you're familiar with, with the concept of relative energy deficiency in sport, REDs.
Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. Um, it's basically just under-fueling or, or not eating enough compared to how much you're burning, right? And it can lead to all sorts of things like injury and illness and, you know, you're not making training adaptations, slow recovery, all, all hormonal imbalances, all sorts of stuff like that.
Um, but really a lot of that isn't just about the bulk of food that you're eating or, or how many calories you're eating, it's about what those calories are made up of as well, right? And, and I'll use this example a lot of times, let's say an athlete has a bone stress injury or, or they're very susceptible to, to bone stress injuries.
They keep getting stress, stress fractures or whatever. Um, all right, we do a dietary analysis. We find that they are consistently under-fueling and, you know, they have a 500 plus calorie deficit on average every day. Um, all right, well, they could drink a half a cup of olive oil every day on top of what they're already eating, and that would probably help them come close to breaking even, right?
That's another, you know, 4 or 500 calories right there. Is that gonna fix this issue that they've been having? No, it's not. Um, it may help, right? Some hormonal response and that sort of thing. But what they really need is more protein in their diet, they need more vitamin D, they need more calcium, and olive oil isn't going to do that for them.
So it's- Mm-hmm ... it's not just the bulk amount of calories, it's can we actually get in the nutrients and the building blocks that we need, and I think that's where a lot of athletes struggle. Um, but no, that's, that's super interesting... Like multiplying the, the, the, the BMR by 2.5 and then k- that's kinda like your cap.
I think that's really... I see athletes fuel more than that. Um- Especially when I'm working with, like, a pro cyclist or someone who's training 20-plus hours a week, right? Mm-hmm. Um, consistently eating 4 or 500 calories a day, or 5,000 calories a day, like they can do that. Um, you just have to be very proactive about it.
Mm-hmm. But yeah in my opinion, I think athletes could get away with these higher training volumes more consistently if they realized, "Whoa, I basically just need to be eating all the time." Um, and they can do it, but it's not easy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. A- and you, you mentioned some interesting things too with the relative energy deficiency syndrome and stuff like that.
That just fascinates me, and maybe the easiest way to introduce this is just you could have somebody who is actually meeting their daily energy demands with respect to just any formula you would, you would put forward, but if they're doing it in a way that is just non-productive for performance, so like an example of this would be they're just, just they're just like mainlining most of their exercise first thing in the morning without eating anything before or during it, and they're kind of eating real light after that, and in the second half of the day they're just basically making up for all of that.
My understanding is like you could have issues with relative en- energy deficiency syndrome by just that weird structure of like not supplying your body with energy when it's actually demanding it the most, versus that same amount of energy intake going during and around that big activity bolus in the early part of the day, and then a little bit more typical perhaps in the second half of the day.
Yeah, you certainly can. And, and that, that timing and structure definitely matters. Um, I think they both matter. I think having the, the average daily intake be, you know, you're at least breaking even with what you're burning, um, but then also making sure that the timing of when that's happening is especially concentrated around your, your harder workouts, right?
And so pre, during, post you kind of got that workout sandwich of adequate fueling. Um, and then of course the rest of the day as well, but, but yeah, I th- If an athlete is not timing that well, they're gonna feel it. They're gonna feel crappy. They're gonna feel like their sessions aren't... They're kinda feeling flat or sluggish on their sessions, and then they're not gonna recover well from those sessions either.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, that's been my experience. I find that when I'm very deliberate about fueling during the higher energy parts of the day, it- it's not always necessarily even in the moment, which gets hard for people 'cause they're, they're very, I think, aware of immediate things, where it's like, "I did this and I saw that.
I did this and I saw that." It could be like, "Okay, I made that mistake today and I felt great, but then tomorrow I felt like trash." Mm-hmm. And that's where I'll usually notice it if I get a little bit lax on the, the... 'Cause I do most of my training in the morning, so it's one of those things. I wake up in the morning, you got the overnight fast working against you with respect to energy availability, and then if you're just gonna go and blast through 2,000 calories verse of- worth of workouts because you have a bigger session that day and barely fuel it, it's like what kind of signal are you sending your body that it's gonna try to respond to with respect to just your, your desire to train again the next day?
For sure. Yeah, you're gonna wake up and feel like, "Oof, I don't wanna go do something hard right now like- Right ... I'm cooked," because your body's still trying to recover from what you did poorly the day before. Mm-hmm. I find that to be most apparent when you get into the phase of ultra-running, where you're consolidating some of that training volume into shorter or smaller periods- Mm
of time, where, you know, kinda the more, the traditional back-to-back long run setup where you're gonna do, you're gonna start moving a lot of your volume into these two sessions to prepare yourself for the specifics of the day. If you're not deliberate on that first day, that second day you can really tell.
Oof. And now you're asking quite a bit of yourself on that second day on top of it. It's not "Okay, I got this 60-minute easy run to get through." It's like, "I got another four or five-hour run to get through." Big time. And I, I think one of the biggest things, and there was actually some research that just came out about this, is glycogen resynthesis.
So like the, the time period that it takes for your body to store glycogen again, um, and like, and have those gas tanks full I guess is a good way of putting that. Mm. It takes a really long time, and that's even if you aren't doing something hard back to back. So, even a singular hard session or long session, it's gonna take you a while to come back to homeostasis in terms of glycogen and, and, and glucose in your bloodstream.
And- And so, yeah, it, it becomes exceedingly important if, especially if you're doing back-to-back sessions that are harder, to really fuel well before, during, and after each of those sessions, 'cause you will feel it. Um, you'll feel really depleted, that second secti- session for sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and one topic that I think is just kinda coming up more and more in the endurance world for, for great reasons is just what is the variance between men and women with some of this stuff?
And we've talked about some of that already, but with respect to the relative energy deficiency syndrome, is it, is it fair to assume that with the female athletes versus male athletes, that timing is just gonna maybe be a little bit more important for the female athletes versus the wiggle room that a male athlete might have?
Not necessarily that it's optimal for the males to say "Oh, you know what? I can just throw caution to the wind," but they may have a little bit more wiggle room in theory. I find that it does seem to be that way. Um, I think, yeah, I, I think in general, men don't have to be quite as quiet as... they can get away with a little bit more, maybe not quite as dialed with some things.
They, they still should be, like you're saying. Um, but I think those within day deficits are more detrimental to female athletes usually. Um, and so, you know, if there's an athlete who's like, "Should I fuel this one-hour easy run or not?" And especially if they've had a history of disordered eating or injury, um, or they're trying to gain weight in general, it's yeah, there's...
everything you do should be fueled. You walk out to the mailbox to get the mail to fuel it. Fuel everything you do. Whereas someone who's I don't know, maybe they're a little bit bigger guy who's actually trying to maybe change body composition, lose some body fat, I'm like, "Yeah, easy hour-long run, fuel it or don't, I don't really care.
You know, that's- that's fine." Unless they're really trying to practice fueling and train the gut and those sorts of things. Every opportunity for that is a good thing to think about. Um, but if, if they're not worried about that and, you know, it is just an easy hour, hour 15-minute run they could probably get away with not fueling it and be okay.
Um, whereas the female athlete, and especially athlete with a history of RED-s, um, I would definitely say let's, let's fuel kind of everything you do, basically. Interesting. Yeah. Well, Vic, it's been awesome to have you on here. Did we miss anything that we're gonna get hate mail over if we don't touch on?
I, I honest- I, I think we could do a whole other episode on hydration and electrolytes. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's always a, a whole bag of worms, but I don't know if we even wanna start unpacking that right now, so, um- Well, let's, let's pin that one for the listeners, and you can come back on in the not too distant future, and we'll just dive into hydration and electrolytes- Sounds good to me
and give that its own, its own spotlight, not make it compete with carbohydrates. Yeah. No, I mean, we covered a lot of really, really fun and interesting things that I think people are always wanting to hear about, so it's been, it's been good. Perfect. Well, before I let you go, we've been talking about a lot of stuff.
I think the listeners will take some of this and put it into practice and, and improve their performance as a result. But if they want to, they can actually work directly with you and individualize all of it. So if you don't mind, you wanna share with us, like, where people can find you and what you're up to?
Yeah, for sure. So probably the easiest way to find me is just on Instagram. You can follow me, um, mountain.sports.dietician, um, on Instagram, or you can look up Mountain Sports Nutrition. That's my website. Um, and I offer one-on-one coaching, like you're saying. Um, so- Whether you're a professional athlete or an amateur athlete or wherever you are, whatever your goals are, if those are, you know, you've got GI issues or you're trying to just make sure you're checking all the boxes with your day-to-day nutrition, um, making race plans, all sorts of stuff like that, um, I'm more than happy to, to work with you.
Um, and what I, what I have right now is a 16-week program that I usually start athletes with. Um, and so we're doing Zoom calls every other week. And then I also have an online self-paced program. Um, and so if you're like, "I maybe don't want one-on-one coaching," maybe that's, you can't afford that or, or that's a little too intensive for you, I have this, um, this modulated course that I made.
So it's, it's six-plus hours worth of video of me going through these different topics, and really it's, it's kind of the, the most important topics boiled down into a modulated course. So it, obviously it's a little less personalized, but there's even application sections on each module for you to do homework.
I put that in air quotes 'cause it's not boring, but for you to do some reflection and go actually apply the stuff that you're learning in that course. So that's a little more affordable as well. Um, but both of those things are available both in my Instagram bio and also on the website.
So, um, yeah. And, and if you have any other questions about anything, just feel free to message me or whatever, so. Awesome. And I see all those race bibs behind you. Do you have anything coming up? Coming up, no. I'm, I'm kinda done for this year. I just did a 50-miler, oh, I don't know, a few weeks ago, and after that I was like, "You know what?
I kinda just wanna go play in the mountains, do some ridgelines- There you go ... and summits and stuff." I, I'll be, I'll be, like, helping a couple buddies who are doing some races. I'll be pacing and crewing and stuff, but nothing serious lined up for me right now, which kind of initially made me feel a little bit lost, as I'm sure you know.
Like, when you don't have something on the s- on the schedule, it's like, "What do I do with my training right now?" Right. But I think it's good. I think every once in a while I need kind of a, at least a few months of downtime- Less structure, yeah ... where I'm just kinda doing fun stuff. So yeah. Very cool.
Well, thanks again, Vic. It was a blast having you on. Thanks, Zach. Super fun being here. All right. Bye bye.