Episode 438: Ultra World Records & National Championships - Charlie Lawrence

Charlie competed in D1 Cross Country and Track & Field for the University of Minnesota. He currently holds the World Record for the 50 Mile, 4:48:21 (5:46/mi). He recently won the USATF 50 KM Road Championships in a time of 2:49:01.

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Timestamps/Topics:

00:00:00 Insights from the Mad City 50 KM USATF National Championships

00:10:36 Race Strategy

00:21:22 Post Race Recovery

00:32:15 Shoe Talk

00:43:29 Injury Discussion

00:54:15 Breaking the 50-Mile World Record

01:05:00 The Versatility of Ultra Running

01:15:52 Treadmill Record Chasing

01:26:58 Training Adaptations

01:38:22 How Zach Uses HPO Sponsors

Episode Transcript:

Alright Charlie, welcome to the show. Zach. Happy to be here, dude. Ben, obviously heard your podcast a few times. Obviously, I've seen my friends on it, so, Pleasure to be on. Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to do more episodes now with, like, some of the, I don't want to say non trail races because I think those are great too. But there's just a lot out there about the trails. It gets a lot of the attention in the sport. And then we get these races like flat ultramarathons or multi days and things like that, which I think are really exciting and have a deep history, but they don't always get quite as much attention. So when someone like yourself goes out and rips a world record at 50 miles and then wins the national championship at 50 K on, I guess Tunnel Hills technically is not a road course, but it sort of behaves like one, as far as I can tell. Yeah. It's fun to kind of hear about that side of the sport and dive in a bit. So, yeah, my, my first question is, what did you think about the Mad City Loop? Have you been out there before? That was my first time. I've been to Madison a few times. Just throw in college racing. like nutty comb, peanut peanuts and stuff. and then I never actually, I run around the other lakes, but actually not like Lake Wingrove. So that was my first time ripping through the ARB, seeing the course, but, Yeah. You know, of course, overall it was I definitely had heard about kind of the Hills and the one on the back side. I'm not sure if you know who Matt Barrett is. He was a former gopher. He was actually in the race, a Madison guy. Well, Madison guy now, easily he had to be ready for that, that hill in the back course. And I was like on the back side of the course. And I was actually fortunate. Like I ran it. I got there Wednesday, ran the course Thursday, and I didn't think it was that bad. So I'm like, which was good for me. I was like, yeah, I'm not worried about it. Obviously it got a little bigger, as you went more times around. But yeah, the course was definitely honest. You know, I think it was, you know, almost I'm not sure what you had, but had like 1200 40 ft of elevation gain, which for, you know, a marathon or, you know, 50 K is a fair amount for a road race. but you also have, you know, you gotta make that up somewhere with, with going down as well. So, definitely an honest, honest course for sure. not not quite as fast as, you know, tunnel helpers say. I guess so, right? Yeah. When you ran 249, I was like, all right. That's because, you know, you're getting close to the world record at that point. Although 50 minutes are premium in the shorter distance ultras. But of course I think it's sneaky because you're right. I think it's like a little over 2000ft for the 100 K. So you know, the 50 K is going to be exactly half. And it's not like it gradually dispersed either. It's like you get kind of a couple punchy hills and then you get some. And then the downhills too, like that first downhill you hit right around like. I think it's like mile three on the first loop, but it's like two and maybe three quarters of the way into the loop when you start from the start finish area. Yep. And I'm sorry, the finish area, I should say. And that's kind of a little bit of an almost more of an aggressive downhill than I would typically like just to. You can fly down it, but you know, there's that grade where it's like you can just really rip and not feel like you're just driving tons of eccentric load. And that can even start catching up to you a bit at the end of, of a, of a longer race too. So add that in with some of those like slightly tighter turns. Like there's that spot where you kind of come into the start finish area. And they had you do like this weird little kind of 290 degree. Yeah. Yeah. And miserable. Yeah. Right, right. Going around that at 6.5 minute pace is like, was a little awkward. I was just thinking, man, these guys ripping 530 in the 50 K must just be like, just screaming about that by the end. Oh, yeah. I mean, like Ian and I and even like the first loop, like myself. Adam. Ian. And then I forgot who else was with us, but it was just like we clipped. Like we all literally clipped each one another, you know, just going around that bend and even, like, you know, basically a mile in when you go up past kind of Edward Edgewood College, you go up, take that sharp left on the sidewalk, like even just those sharp turns get slightly annoying after a while. and obviously, you know, the race went well for me, so I can't really complain a ton, but it does kind of take you out of rhythm. And, definitely throws a little extra, you know, small little jabs in there that you don't necessarily expect. And they definitely add up slightly over time. But you know, again, it was only 50 K you like wasn't definitely the 100 K would wear on you a little more for sure. So because you just it just breaks your rhythm. And also I like your point on the downhills as well. And that's probably the one thing I was worried about the most because my build was fairly abbreviated, so I didn't have a ton of time to get like a ton of mileage under my belt and do anything sort of like major downhill runs or anything like that. So, that was kind of my biggest worry, like my quads blowing up just because I didn't have the sheer volume underneath my legs in this build. But, I was able to, you know, fortunately, get through it. So. Yeah. When I saw you guys come by. Were you guys on loop four? Do you remember? Honestly, I think that was the start of loop two. Oh. Was it? Was it that early? Okay. My perception is way off then. Okay. Yeah. Because you guys had a good pack at that point, and I can't. I was trying to remember because I was starting to think about it while I was out there. I was like, I'm trying to remember when they started the 50 K. And that obviously would drive probably when I was going to see you guys. But like, yeah, I mean, it looked like you guys had a good pack going there for a while. At what point did you kind of break away from that? Yeah, that was basically kind of right after we passed, we shot up that hill near the college, took that sharp left onto the sidewalk, and in even the first, the first time going around. So basically a mile in roughly Ian kind of didn't surge but just really let himself go down that hill. And then the second loop after we went by you, he even let it go even more. And that was kind of his, his little breakaway move. And I kind of let him go a little bit until we turned on that kind of sharp left on that sidewalk. Also, like there's that little like, you know, like brick ledge as you kind of turn in, almost like almost nailed my soul, my shoulder on every single time. so I kind of let him go. And then it was myself, Adam, and maybe two of the gentlemen, maybe one of the gentlemen. And Ian probably had ten meters on us as we got off that bike path. you kind of hit that main main road where that roundabout is, where you hit that sidewalk again. And I'm like, shoot. Ian's like, Ian's a really good runner. and he could easily, like, not easily, but he could run away with this. It was his first 50 K but he ran 216 at the Indy Monumental a couple of years back. I'm like shoot I gotta like I should probably cover this. And like I didn't feel great. The first loop I felt better as we went, which was a, you know, a great feeling when it goes that way. so I actually shot the gap for the next probably 400m after that sidewalk, before we got to that next little trail and just closed the gap on him. And then it was basically just us two. from that point on. So, then he was basically taking basically all the poles he was leading. my plan was just, I was at a win. I didn't care if we ran three hours, you know, I just wanted to. I just want to come out with the win. So I'm like, I'm not going to make a move until I have to. So, it was basically. Yeah, Ian and I, the other the rest of the second loop. The entire third loop, then the fourth loop, I could tell it was kind of fatiguing, especially coming around in the start into the the wind that he kind of developed, coming off the lake there and going up the big hill on the backside basically, you know, with roughly ten miles to go. I just kind of sense that he was like, really slowing down, really, like laboring. And I just kind of, like, unintentionally, like, just maintained pace and just ended up gaping him on the hill. And one of my buddies was out there cheering. He's like, Chuck. He's cooked. He's done. You gotta go go. So I just like I didn't even like didn't even look back. Didn't have hesitate. Got to the top of the hill. Just didn't press at all. Maintained took that first left onto the road, took that next left into the ARB and just went like just let it go. So I dropped a 511 a mile from basically that, that split from top of the hill for the next mile. So just kind of broke it up. And then just basically. Stayed relatively on the gas over 305 20s. had a couple, five teens in there, but that was kind of just how it helped progress. But again, I didn't expect to move that early. But you just saw an opportunity and I took it. So. Yeah. No I imagine yeah. You picked that when it, when it showcases itself like that. And, and there's also you kind of get in a little bit of just like a rhythm with where you're at or who you're with. And then you get a little bit of a change in environment between someone slowing down like that, which you don't always expect, and just this new sense of purpose almost where you make your move and now you're, you're you're running a little faster at what feels like a similar or same effort, which, you know, at the right time in a 50 K, I think can just launch you into a really solid finish. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly where it was. I mean, it just felt like I was doing like because even even though I'm racing with the in and we're running slower together, you know, you're still like really focusing on your breathing because it's you're also trying to hear how how he's breathing. you're also trying to like, figure out how far the other people are behind you. Like, we passed Raj at one point on the the fourth loop, kind of before that hill. And I'm like, gosh, how far back are they? And he's like, ah, you can't even see him. I'm like, all right, cool. Thanks. Then my buddy actually drove by before he. He hit the top of the hill. It was like 50s there. Back there, I'm like, damn 50. I thought we gapped him more. And then Ian, even when he's like, he's like, nah, that's a lot of time, man. We got the win. Duh duh duh. But little did I know that it was actually him. Kind of like, actually I'm like, yo, we can I'm probably hurting. Like, I'm not gonna tell you I am, but it's like, we don't really need to press in. And again, I was just like, you know, I almost felt I'm almost too hyper focused on how you feel going back to what you're saying, like when you're with other people. And then I just literally just turned into my own kind of solo like time trial, the last, you know, ten miles. I definitely could have pressed a little more, but it was like, dude, you're putting more time on on people. So, just bring it home. No one's gonna catch you for running. 517 to 522, you know? So, yeah. Did you guys have support on that back side of the loop, too? No. So I intentionally put a bottle out there, a bottle with a gel. I had 50g of carbs in the bottle. And then a Science and Sport beta fuel gel just taped through the 40 gram one. and, like, I'll grab that if, like, if I see it the first loop and we went by the first loop and I'm just like. You know, like, no, no disrespect, race or anything. I just didn't see my bottle on the table that they had sitting out there. I'm cool. And I saw I had gel stashed in my half tights anyway. So just right when we passed that, I just ripped that gel. And then basically every other loop that was a plan. So I'd have my 50g of carbs in a bottle rip that just the first mile, with a, you know, beta fuel gel, rubber band on it. So then I took that in my shorts and took that half way and just repeated that. So it worked out well, because I just didn't want to. I had heard kind of not bad things about the table halfway, but I'm just like, I just don't want to. There's no guarantee. Like it was basically just going to be like sitting in a group on a table versus, you know, like in marathons, you have, you know, table three, bottle three, like every time, no matter what. So like and that's kind of what I'm used to. So I'm like, I don't want to just have to stop or hesitate and stare, look for my bottle and, you know, pick it out without knocking anyone else's over. And that just gets messy. So, that was a bottle situation. Yeah. I wonder if they maybe maybe they do. And I'm just not aware. But like, they should almost allow crew over there to where they have like a transition zone kind of midway so you can have your stuff handed to you. I think that would make a lot of sense because like, you know, the 50 K, you guys are running fast enough. And depending on what your strategy is like, you probably want to hit more than every ten K if you can. It just seems like it would maybe be a good thing to happen. I guess maybe logistically that might be difficult to go back and forth, especially if you just have one crew to kind of get to those spots in time without getting in the way or having to get in and out of that park like that. But, yeah, I mean, we could just dive into maybe your approach, how you kind of strategize hydration and fueling and timing of all of that. Yeah, for me, it's just I. It's been a lot of trial and error. Definitely some air in there and figuring it out. And initially when I first started running competitively at the professional level, it was like I kind of viewed feeling as like I didn't take it as seriously. I'm like, well, if I get my bottle, that's great. You know, I'll make sure I stay hydrated, I'll get X amount of carbs. But now I'm trying. I try to be a little more dilated than try to, like, really hone in, especially for the longer stuff. You gotta you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna blow up at, you know, run out of carbohydrates at some point. So, for me, it's just like, really honing in on that feeling. So what I found that works for me is like, I'll do like first off, I'll do, like, ketone with caffeine. right when I wake up, have my coffee, my normal quote unquote breakfast three hours before, which is just bread, nut butter, honey on a bagel with a banana. and then before the race, I'll honestly, I'll snack on, like, a, like a Morton bar, too, if I get sort of hungry between that, that time gap. got, And then right before the race, I'll do another, caffeine ketone shot. So, one of my partners is ketone IQ, so, rip that pretty consistently. also take them just post race as well, just for recovery. Ten grams. but then really in the race, it's for me. I found what works well for me personally is basically starting with a gel, right at the start with a, with a ketone shot. So kind of get the one of the ketones, hopefully kind of locking the brain. you know, for even a marathon, I know the ketones might not be super beneficial, but I think when it comes to focusing in the longer races definitely could be an advantage there. and then I'll do like a 40 gram carb gel. So whether it's a a Morton 160 or the, ten sport beater fuel, and then after that, typically I would go to like a bottle of 50g of carbs like the next five K and then go to a gel with electrolytes, type two, like, electrolytes in a bottle with a gel tape to it. And I go back and forth between that. but obviously Mad City was a little unique, where I had to kind of go to a gel five and then go to the bottle at ten K and rotate it that way. I just found kind of giving myself one like liquid carbs. and like it was basically 16, you know. Yeah. 16 oz of fluid with, you know, 50g of carbs and 600mg of sodium. so that's quite a bit, you know, to put down. And then I know that's enough. Like, I feel a little bloated. Start burping. So I usually let that settle. And then I'll go to, you know, the next 5KA gel and I'll just make sure I rip the gel. and there's not many electrolytes in, you know, like a Morton gel or a beta fuel. So I'll usually have a bottle with electrolytes. Just usually like could be like an element, or some form of electrolytes. And just like chase with it, don't need to finish it if I feel like I'm getting really dehydrated, have more. just chase the gel down with that. Toss it and then, you know, go back and forth to the the 50g of carbs. 60mg sodium in a bottle and back and forth. I just noticed that my stomach with the little variances, and that kind of just helps it honestly just stay a little calmer. I haven't had any stomach issues doing it. I know some people that just go, you know, the same, same thing every five K, whether it's a gel or, you know, liquid carbs. And for me, that's just like, don't be wrong. I put down, you know, I guess it's probably not a ton. You probably know more on this, and I do, but 64 total ounces of fluid, during the race. And then, you know, it's 410g of carbs throughout, basically right before the start to, to the finish, which is, you know, a fair amount is, you know, 100 and. It's 130 an hour, roughly. so, you know, doing, doing quite a bit of cars, but it can definitely probably hydrate a little more. But that's just kind of a, a balance that I've, that I've found that works. Yeah. No, it clearly worked on Saturday. So it's always interesting to kind of hear like. And I had David Rausch on the podcast a while ago, you know, he was talking about some of those hyper high carb strategies and how much he took in even for a hundred miles. And it's like really interesting to see, like the different approaches and how they're doing it too. And have have you figured out like a, an intensity, where you feel like the exogenous ketones are maybe something you wouldn't do during an event, or are you just using them kind of across the board for, for anything? At this point I use them. I honestly, I use them across the board and full transparency like I get them for free. So, you know, it's like, yeah. And they're they're like they're they're not cheap. You know, like I'll say that if I, if I wasn't partnered with ketogenic, I probably wouldn't use them as much as I do. but I just, I use them across the board, I know for like at least in the research. And I'm not oblivious to it. Like, I'm not going to say or say it's like the 100% magic bullet. But like for anything like VO2 work, anaerobic work, you're probably not going to have any benefit, you know? but I still just I'll take it. Especially post-workout recovery. I'm feeling down. Or have, like a massive session. Like a big long run or something. Even after the race, I ripped, ripped one. just to honestly research its own, you know, like post workout, EPO production, all that. And anyway, to boost EPO legally, I'm all full, right? Yeah. so, yeah, mostly, you know, kind of any, any scenario, even though it might not be particularly beneficial, you know, for, for some work. But for me, I think when you get into maybe not even 50 K, when you get into like 50 mile, 100 K, when you are, when it does is a pretty big mental toll mental state. You got to be locked in for 4 or 5, six hours. I think that's where it can kind of, you know, help the of the brain kind of just stay stay a little locked. Obviously caffeine is there as well. So I stack, you know, the caffeine with that. even you mentioned, you know, circling back to, to David, you know, I definitely again, don't know everything. I'm fortunate to have David as a as a resource if needed. So even before the race, I texted him a few days before, I'm like, yo, man, I know you're busy. Sorry to bother you, but just a dumb feeling question. I just need someone to just, like, shoot it to me straight, like, stop me from overthinking it. And I took a one of the beta fuel like nootropic gels with two milligrams of caffeine. I'm like, should I take it at that, basically? Or should I have it on my second bottle and take it basically halfway? Or should I wait till. Have it on my third bottle and take it halfway through the third lap. He's like, yeah, I'm a and then he, you know, long text from David and it's just like, you know why why he thought I should take it, you know, exactly halfway in terms of, you know, carbs, metabolism, I think even referenced, you know, fat burning somewhere in there. so I'm like, cool. Done. Like, just keeps me out of my head. So, Yeah, he's someone I've definitely. We haven't talked. You know, I don't talk to David a ton. Obviously. He lives three miles that way for me. yeah, but but, like, you know, he's just someone that's always, you know, full of knowledge. I always wanted to offer it. So super, super appreciative. And, you know, his high carb feeling is something I've definitely tried to kind of take from him and learn, because I definitely think it's beneficial. And honestly, especially in training, if you can practice it, it's just going to help you recover more, you know, for the next, the next session. So yeah, yeah, he's definitely someone who I like. I love it when people start kind of pushing the edges of what we think we know or don't know. And, David's definitely one of those guys with the king of the, the carb fueling side of stuff. So, it's interesting to see his progress with it and then hear other people apply it to what they're doing and see some see some, more like race day specific stuff because, I mean, similar to, like, the ketone stuff. It's like. We've got the research. It's evolving. And the way I usually describe it is like, I'm sure in five years we'll have other uses or different uses and different directives in terms of where we maybe can and can't get benefits from these sorts of things. But in the meantime, it's kind of fun to watch. Like, what are people doing when they actually have a, you know, a result on the line and things like that, which, which I think is, is fun to just chat about from time to time, but, that's cool. Yeah. So how's recovery? Are you feeling pretty decent by this point? I guess it's what, Thursday now? So you've got a few days off the course? Yeah. Recovery is honestly pretty good. Well, I'll say this. It was great at first. And then it kind of hit me like Monday, Tuesday, Monday, Tuesday. And I'm like, ah, shit. so I ran like, I, I actually flew into Minnesota, so I went to school in Minneapolis, ran for the Gophers. So super familiar with that. And honestly, like, I almost sound cheap, but it was just like $400 cheaper to fly to Minneapolis, rent a car and drive to Madison. So, and my grandma, my grandma lives downtown Minneapolis. I'm like, I'll just come home after the race or go back to Minneapolis after the race. My grandma, having dinner with some friends and then waking up, runs in Minneapolis and comes back to Boulder on Sunday. So I ran Sunday mornings on River road, met coach Bill Plaza. I'll call him plies if I reference him again. So, he bikes with me and I'm like, we'll see. Yeah, yeah, I just want, like, give me 30 minutes and I'll just shake it out like I'm not. Yeah, I usually do that honestly. Even after really hard marathons. All right. So just go the next day. Run half an hour max. just flush the legs and then focus on coverage. Maybe take a day off the second day, 48 hours after we started running. And honestly, my legs felt obviously some fatigue in the quads, but nothing crazy. I felt like I'd just done a really hard long run. so like I got basically 20 minutes. I'm like, I'll go, go a little farther, get like kept going, get to four miles. And I'm like, I feel pretty good. I'll go to four and a half. So I ended up doing nine miles on Sunday. traveled Saturday afternoon or traveled Sunday afternoon back to Boulder. I woke up Monday and I was like, oh, I'm like trash. so I'm like, well, I'll just like, keep shaking out because it doesn't feel that bad. Like, I definitely feel way more shredded after, like doing marathons at, you know, five, ten, five, 12 pace. Those beat me up more than almost anything. but like even now from, you know, Monday to now, legs of legs have come around like yesterday. I just ran five miles, went to the pool for 45 minutes in the afternoon, just kind of doing anything I can to just recover. but definitely a little more beat up, like Monday, Tuesday and yesterday than I thought they would be. And it's probably just my fault for thinking I actually felt good on Sunday. And even though I was just waiting for the Doms to hit a little bit. So, but recovery is going well. I've really nothing super serious on the calendar until Sunday or until. Excuse me. June, I don't know why I said Sunday. and we'll see. so I just honestly make sure I recover before I get into the next build, so. Yeah. No. That's smart. And I've been asking this question a lot more lately, because this year I'm just playing around with all the different shoes I can get my hands on. I know you've been working with Adidas this year. What? What model did you wear at Mad City? How were the Evo ones? So, it's kind of funny. I was hoping to have the Evo twos, for the race. I mean, it doesn't doesn't really matter, but I came home to a box of another pair of Evo ones and two. So, Well, I was pretty happy to see that. But, yeah, we're the evo ones. Which actually, my first time I've worn, like, kind of a prototype version of it. but that was my first time actually in the Evo one. So, I mean, huge, huge fan of them. yeah. Did you, did you have an opportunity to try out a bunch of different, like, models and brands before you decided to go with Adidas, or was Adidas just something where you were kind of like, inclined to maybe gravitate towards? Anyway? Yeah, Adidas was the brand that, like, we had the honestly just most serious talks, you know, coming into this year, at least in, you know, a couple of months into this year, you know, Puma had kind of a mini pact with them last fall. You know, they're still generous enough to, you know, hook me up with gear throughout last fall, which is again, super, super appreciation saves you money, doesn't necessarily make you money. yeah. But it's still, still nice. So, and then really kind of entering this year, it was like, I'm not going to do anything short term. You know, how to package last year with Puma for the monarch world record attempt in Lithuania, for the San Francisco Marathon last July. But again, that was a six week, six week gig. And it's great because, I mean, it was able to make a fair amount of money that took great care of me, great people to work with. But it was just short term. and again, like, I'm not, I'm not against that. Like it again, it extends your life in the sport and honestly helps you make money and keep it as a profession. So I'm super grateful for Puma for, you know, coming to the table. But again, I was like, I don't want another three months or six weeks or even a year, or just even doing, doing an event. And Adidas had approached me. And, you know, it was going to be hopefully multi-year. And I'm like, yeah, as long as that's the way we're talking, and they really want to try to invest into the road ultra space, which is in my opinion, I'm sure you feel the same way. It's pretty underinvested in. And I think they see, you know, kind of an opportunity there. So, yeah. And they're trying to bring on, you know, people that they think can make a big impact on that scene. And, you know, fortunately they thought I could do that. So, yeah, pretty excited for, you know, what we have, you know, really this year and next year for, you know, which is right now the extension to my contract with them. So yeah. Yeah. It looked like they were maybe trying to make a move into some road ultra stuff because they had signed Sorokin recently too. And I was like, between you, you two guys, it was like, okay, that's you know, that's they're clearly interested in it enough to look at two, two road guys. And yeah, I think I love that too, especially for a brand like Adidas, where like when we get into the super shoe stuff, it's just one of those interesting things. Like we were chatting a little bit about this before, but before we recorded it. But it's almost getting more like a kind of bike type of, choices where, you know, back back. When I got into running and stuff, it was like, you know, you wanted the right shoe, but there wasn't a huge variance in terms of like, what one brand's top model was going to do for you from an efficiency performance standpoint compared to the next. Whereas now, you know, it's a tool that will make a big enough difference on race day from a performance standpoint. So finding the right one is important. So part of me is kind of like maybe a shorter term partnership like you described. Because then it's like okay, I could pick the one for the job. And as long as the brand wants to work with you, then, you know, you can kind of just like to use it for that purpose. And if you pivot to something completely different, you've got your choice of the whole market again. But if you know what you want to raise and you've got your goal set out, and eventually when you're targeting things like world records and national championships like you are, you need some consistency to the degree where you can just kind of put your head down and train and not think about, okay, it's been two months. I better find a new partner. Yeah. It takes. Yeah. So sorry to cut you off. Yeah, it takes a lot of thinking out of it and even to, like, this past fall. Again, coming off Lithuania was basically done with Puma, but they're like, yeah, if you need anything, just let us know, you know? Shoot us a text or an email. We'll get whatever you want your way. So it's like I was training in one shoe, but I'd broken the world record for a world record. And now fly twos. And I'm like, the trees look sick. I think they're probably a better shoe. But low key. The threes didn't work that great for me. and yeah. So it's just like, you know I'm training Pumas but I think I'll fly might be a little better or the Vaporfly might also, you know, do this more for me or, you know, vice versa. so it just takes a lot of thinking out of it. And their shoes are, their shoes are great. I mean, even, like, I've, I've rarely had this feeling, but like, the first time I put on Alpha flies back in like, 2020, you know, the alpha one. it was just like doing a stride number. It's like. What was that? Like, Holy crap. This is this is incredible. You're coming from, like, just basic, standard trainers and, like, you even go back to trainers. It felt like, you know, you're just like. Like, yeah, there's there's nothing there. you're stuck in mud. Yeah. Yeah. I remember having that that feeling just with with the alpha flies and then this is no, no slight at Puma whatsoever. I think they're like the fast R2. Fast R3 just is coming out, and then even the DB three is like we were chatting offline. I think they're great shoes. but then like, even the first time wearing the audio's pro for like a few weeks ago or sometime in March, I had that kind of same feeling. So I was just so used to the puma. Like the feeling of those two shoes. and the feeling of alpha flies. I was like, oh, these feel pretty good. so. So when you feel that in a shoe, you're definitely like, and you're going to get a brand that you're going to be working with for the foreseeable future. It's like, all right. We're we're in a good spot. So and again, it just takes makes it simpler. And even for me to mentally it's like, all right I have orders. Pro four which is basically in my opinion online with, you know, endorphin elite, a vaporfly, DB elite three, like those types of shoes, like cool. Like you're, it's an even playing field. And then you can even possibly go step up with the Evo and Evo two. So, Kind of an unfortunate place to be in right now, for sure. Yeah. And I mean, my view of the landscape right now, too, is like, there are there are brands and I would say Adidas is, is certainly one of them where just based on the last few years of development, you can bet pretty safely that they're not going to find themselves way behind to the degree where you're like, oh, shoot. Now I'm sacrificing really noticeable performance opportunities by having to wear this shoe, which probably isn't the case for every brand. I mean, there's so many brands, it's definitely not the case for every brand. But you know, you get a handful of them that have sort of been sort of producing the higher performing shoes, over the last few years. It's unlikely that they're going to fall off a cliff and get out competed at this point, especially with the R & R & R & R&D of a brand like Adidas, you're probably in a safer bet with them than you. Maybe others. Oh yeah. I mean that's the thing. They're not, they're not afraid to put cash like where it's needed, especially to keep up with or be or try to beat a Nike or, you know, whatever, whatever brand is out there. So, yeah, pretty, pretty fortunate to have that. And even just being I was in their HQ at their HQ in Germany. I got there in March. In March. I was there for basically two weeks prior to 200 worlds, so I got to meet their team, got to honestly test out some other shoes that they're working on. It's just like, you know, they're continuing to evolve too, which is cool. You know, even beyond the Pro four and the Evo, they're constantly trying to evolve and make just a better shoe. So, yeah, it's exciting. So I don't see them. We see them falling behind anytime soon. Like you said, they got the R & R&D budget. yeah. The interesting thing too about super shoe tech is it at first glance it kind of seems like a niche where it's like, okay, well, this is like a race shoe. How is the brand going to invest that much money in that? But when you really think about it like it's such a premium, what they can do is like they make a shoe that, you know, maybe they even have a limited skew and it has all these bells and whistles on it. Someone goes and breaks a world record in it. They can take, they can itemize the parts of that shoe and put them into their other shoes and use that as like a marketing tool because, you know, that's what people are going to see. They're going to see these big record breaking performances or big wins in that product. You know, every time you see a major marathon now, it's like the conversation is, well, like how many people were wearing Nike? How many people are wearing Adidas? How are we Asics? You know, you get that sort of a breakdown now. So I think it just incentivizes these brands to sink more money into that type of their line than they maybe would have otherwise in a, like a racing flat back in the day. Yeah. I mean that's literally what they said. Like, yeah. This like the launch of the Evo one could not have gone better. You know, they launched it. Everyone's like $500. Are you serious? Like, is that like, is that worth it? and then it's like, then you go see to get a CFO, go run to 11. You know, in Berlin, it's like, I mean, don't don't wrong like she's a monster regardless. But it's like that. Just the marketing for that shoe. You throw her time on that shoe and her holding it at the finish line, like, like money. Money well spent. They're for sure. And then people are gonna, you know, they only had. 500 of them at one point it's like, you know. Those are going quickly. Yeah. If they're not gone already. So, Yeah, 100%. And for them too, it's like they have, you know, guys like even this weekend like Evans Chabert, got other people in Berlin coming up. Like, they want them competing for those major marathon wins, and they want to make sure that they're in the best technology possible, you know, have that on their feet. So, yeah, they're, you know, like I said, well worth it from from the marketing perspective because there's if you keep up on the shoe, front, there's a good chance you can have, you know, those the, the time written on the shoe, them holding it on on the finish line and, you know, holding the Boston Marathon trophy, you know, or anything like that at the end. And that you get their money's worth, when you see those results. Yeah. Very cool. So, I mean, we've been rolling here, but I do want to kind of go back and get a little bit into kind of your, your background a bit, because I think it's really interesting. just from a sport evolution with ultrarunning when I first started doing ultras. My first one was in 2010 and it was like the landscape was. There was really nobody doing the roads to any large degree. Certainly not like D1 caliber runners doing them at any consistency. I guess if you go over to comrades, that comrades, if you go international and you get into some things like world hunter caves and things like that, you are seeing some of that level of, kind of talent and competitive depth. But we weren't even necessarily seeing or that was just kind of starting on the, on the trails, even where you'd see guys who had like a potential path to professionalism within running in general decide, all right, well, maybe I'm going to do some ultramarathons and stuff like that. So, I mean, your pedigree is great from my perspective. I mean, if I'm correct if I'm wrong, but you were a state champ in high school, ran for University of Minnesota, went on to compete professionally for Hansons Brooks for a while, chasing some marathon stuff before you kind of got into ultras. Yeah, I mean, that's spot on. yeah. Like a couple times. Hey, champion state of Minnesota ran for the gulfs. Never was. I mean, I wanted to be an All-American so badly. I just never, never got it done. Unfortunately, it happened a few times. Well, a couple times, all big ten, a few times, all region in cross country. So, I adapted really, really well to just the strength work that has put me through college. And, you know, he was a super smart grad who brought me up from, you know, 70 miles as a freshman, basically going 80, 90, 100. And for my fifth year, you know, a little bit over 100, and I just really adapted well to the aerobic work and got pretty strong throughout that. And then fortunately, you know, I didn't have a deal after college just because I didn't have the resume and my track times were not great. Truthfully. we still have to meet the standards that I wanted them to be at. So I was like, well, if I can just make the trials, that'd be awesome. You know, post, post collegiately. So, plaids cost me all the way through my, my debut marathon, two 1610 that came in 2018. And then, yeah, joined Hansen's basically a month after. So, and that was an opportunity that I couldn't not turn down. It's like you can go, you know, not not make a lot of money, but you're not gonna have any expenses. Go represent Brooks, represent Hanson's a program that a lot of great people have come through. And, yeah, I mean, to this day, I wouldn't be here without one player and two Kevin Hansen for giving me the opportunity. but, yeah, that was kind of my way into it was, you know, the marathon. I was still kind of a marathoner by trade. I still do basically mostly marathon type work just with kind of some extra volume out on top of it, whether it's during the interval session or doubling more just making my days easy, you know, 14 to 4, 15 to 5. That's basically a copy and paste directly from, from Kevin Hansen, kind of the cumulative fatigue. So and then yeah, in 2021, was kind of my, I guess the back end of 2020, I was like, you know, I'm a good marathoner. I'm 216. but I'm probably never gonna get to make an Olympic team. Almost will guarantee to never make an Olympic team in the marathon. I just think I had kind of gotten close to, like, you know, squeezing too much out of that lemon as I could. I still think there's more to squeeze, truthfully. But at the same time, it's like, you know, where can I be the best on on the world scene. So kind of the end of 2020, especially early 2021. I was like, I'm gonna try to win, win the 50 day champs. I think that's kind of in my wheelhouse. Like I've always been able to to nail long runs all the way up. In college. I'm especially at Hansons. I'm doing a couple of long runs with Shadrach, BYU and stuff and, and Ritz and it's just like I was able to honestly, like, take it to those guys just because I could just go run 530 kind of all day, no matter what. Like, but you throw me 515, five, ten like those guys are. These guys are. You know, meters up the road. so they're probably going 100, a couple of hundred meters. So, so and, you know, that was kind of my goal. 2021. But then obviously Covid hit. Like not many races going on and had gotten to know des pretty well over the last couple of years through being one Hansens. and two, I'm just really close with her, her husband Ryan, like, we were we were texting stuff, you know, back and forth yesterday. If we text like Ryan. Ryan made steaks two nights ago. He made pork chops last night. So we texted food back and forth and, you know, whatever. Like whatever coffee we're drinking, whatever beer we're drinking, you name it. So, and just being in touch with des, and I'm like, yo, what do you have, like, going on? This is, you know, back to 2021. It's like, what do you have going on like any goals this and that. She's like, you know, Josh and I Cox, her agent at the time, was like, we're working on, you know, putting together, going for the 100 K world record. I'm like, oh, sick. Obviously just being one, a fan of des, a friend of hers. And I'm just like, you know, I don't have really any races going on. Like, basically everything's canceled. If I can help you in any way, let me know whether it's just being there supporting. obviously, I definitely meant pacing. Didn't want to, like, force my way into that position. which is. Yeah, I'll let you know. And then, like, I was actually down in Arizona with her for. I was down there for race. She's down there in Tempe. Training's kind of getting out of her winter. So I stayed there that weekend. so yeah, I'll let you know if anything, anything comes up. And then a couple weeks later, she's like, yo, yeah, I need a pacer. We'll have Josh. Josh will text you in probably a couple days. Finalize it. Like, does, you know, this Week in April work? I'm like, of course I have nothing else to do. So someone wanted to be in Eugene. so long story short. Yeah, I ended up pacing des, as a workout. I didn't really taper for it. you know, she obviously she did all the work. I was just there, kind of keeping her company. But, after that, you know, when I ran. Two 5959 is basically a long run workout. she ran two 5954, broke the, you know, first woman ever to break three hours, super, super special to be a part of it. And obviously something I looked up to. But right after that, that was basically April then coming. June that year was 50 gay champs. and I'll eventually circle back to to des here as well. But, I'm sure that was a goal. Like go try to win 50 gay champs. I ran like a total, total jackass. someone went out. Some. Someone went out and, like, it was capped. It was the out in New York, at, at hesher. And, basically some gentleman who none of us knew. Like, I knew I'd have known Fernando Cabana for a while. I've seen new Kyle Masterson. who else is in that race? Is basically us three. And then this gentleman who just took off, he was wearing Salomon gear, and nobody knew who he was, and I, I hate that I can't remember his name right now, but, he just kept getting farther and farther away every, every five k loop. And finally, I am just impatient. I'm still pretty inexperienced. Just like, basically mile ten just took off running, like, five hours trying to catch him. and Fernando and Kyle kind of let me go along to the show today. I ended up closing the gap on him. He had basically two minutes on us, but at mile 22, I had just blown up and I was basically running six 37 minute pace all the way home and faded from six to or faded from second to sixth. So. Okay. so that's how that went. Pretty disappointing. but anyways, going back to des. So I had obviously then pasted her. So that segment was kind of a flop in my opinion. Failed. Failed the 50 K attempt. Something that I really wanted and definitely would have, would have loved that kind of feather in my cap having a US title. But going back to pacing, you know I did. That is basically a glorified long run workout. And she ran 547 pace, and in my head I was like, what's the world or American record of 50 miles? I'm like, oh, it's 548 paces. And in my head I was like. I think I could do that. Like obviously it's like that's that's saying a lot, but it's like it's, you know, quite unquote, only 19 more miles at this pace is just pace as a workout with really no taper. Like I, you know, doubled, you know, like the day prior and stuff. So in my head I'm like, if the right time comes, you'll, you'll go, you'll go get that. So, that was kind of my initial initial dive into the altar space right there. And I really wanted to dive into 2022 and 2023, but, three, no. Four weeks before 50 games 2022, I ran Houston half as just basically kind of a big key, key race key workout. And then five weeks later, fifth Kid champs came out with a grade for sacral. basically. Right. Right after that, a week after, obviously you had probably had it at Houston, made it worse, kind of felt it right away and just, you know, like I, you know, I got, you know, four and a half, five weeks to to 50 champs, like, you'll make it. And I guess at that point I thought it was like a good issue. But, you know, it went from being one being slightly manageable to excruciating pain, you know, and of course, I was like, I'll take four, four leaves and rub some Voltaren on it and wait for that to kick in and you'll be good. So I did that for about another week. And finally my like, you know, I'm like, I'm walking around like my place is like. Like I literally needed a cane to walk. It was so painful. and again, that was nobody's fault but mine. I was like, yo, you gotta shut it down. Like, well, we finally got an MRI, and then he was like, oh, that is really bad. Like, you could see just the cracks right through my sacrum, which is, which is not good. So I basically missed the entire year of 2022 because I tried to come back a little too early that summer, and it basically flared up again. so my next race was the Austin half, actually 2023. that February. So it was a 13 month month gap. So I wasn't able to really kind of do anything that I really wanted to do race wise or expand into ultras. And I actually joined routes running at the time. yeah. Just because one those are some of my best friends at the time was, you know, Austin Dahlquist, Austin Geraghty, Sydney Buddha, obviously Frank Lara, Syd Vaughn. Those are just the guys that I hung out with outside of running as well. So, it just made a ton of sense. But in 2020, we would love to do 50 k chance, but, it would have been probably too early for me to go do it post Austin in February. Going back in March to do Hesher again. And yeah. So that was kind of the no go on 50 champs again in 2023. If I'm talking too much, let me know if you have questions. Just, Well, I'll just jump in real quick and say, like the sacral stress fracture stuff like I've had no broken bones and two stress fractures in my life, both of them sacral stress fractures. And like, what you said was just spot on. Like, it's like a type of pain where when it gets to a point where it's too problematic to really push through, you're just like, you just know. It's like the second time I had it, I knew right away, like I felt it kind of coming up on the discomfort, like in the afternoon after a harder workout. And I remember thinking, oh shit. Yeah. Because I knew what it felt like from the prior time I had had it. And, and I just went like, the hard thing is, it's kind of a relatively new injury in terms of like the medical community thinking it's something that could happen to a runner. It went from like, oh, this is super unlikely. It's way more likely to be glutamine. It's way more likely to be this, that or the other thing. So by the time you get around to getting an MRI ordered, you've probably been through the bone remodeling process. So if you hadn't been I mean, if you're trying to train through it, you're going to delay that progress. But, the last time I had it, I knew, like the day of I just said, screw, screw this. I'm going to go out of pocket and just get the MRI. I had the MRI back within like a few days, and I was like, yeah, confirmed stress fracture. So then I stayed off it and I was back running within like I started my I did my first run back four weeks after and oh it was fine after that. So yeah. Yeah that's great. Yeah. That was my thing too. It's funny, the first time I would've thought it was. Yeah, an upper glute, you know something. And you're just like, all right. Yeah, it'll get better. Just, you know, roll it out and like, you know, put the Theragun on it and just like, you know, like, just pound that bone. Yeah, yeah. And then and then the second time I remember just getting out of bed in the morning, like I didn't feel it at all, like. And then just getting out of bed in the first step I was like, hmm. Fuck. So then I then, you know, I texted Richie, I wrote to him like, yo, I know it's my sacrum. Can you get me an MRI? Got an MRI? yeah. That day. Same thing. Paid out of pocket. Got it. Instantly. and just, you know, 40 hours later. Oh, yeah. It's, you know, you're it's another sacral, so it's, like, cool. Back. Back in the pool. Back on the bike. Yeah. Yeah. It can be a, it's a, it's a frustrating one. I, I've, I've seen a lot more people I like, I recorded a podcast about it after my last one. So I've had like a ton of people reach out to me since then and just say like hey I had one now. And just like, just like the awareness of that now, I think it has come quite a ways in the last few years. But hopefully, knock on wood, neither of us have to deal with that again. Yeah, fingers crossed man. Yeah. yeah. Sorry, I think I interrupted you. You're talking about kind of your progression through. I did have one question though, too, because like, Hanson Brooks. So, like, I think guys like you, it's really interesting because we have sort of this scenario in the US where there's just a ton of support in collegiate athletics. So like with your pedigree in high school, you're going to be able to access that. But then like even if you have a really good collegiate career. You almost have to be like the very top of the class in order to really have a great outlet. If you if you don't want to go into like essentially poverty living in order to kind of chase any sort of like development that's going to progress you to the degree where you're running marathon times fast enough to be able to kind of compete and ultimately sign a sponsorship and hopefully build a career around that versus, you know, most of these folks are college educated. They have other opportunities outside of sports. It's not like they're living. Living modestly with running or living modestly without running is kind of a decision. Do I start a whole nother career or do I chase these marathon times and things like that? And Hanson Brooks is probably one of the first programs that really started to try to bridge that gap. I still don't think we're anywhere near where I'd like to see it. I'm obviously biased, but I think if we stick a ton of guys like you into development programs that actually make sense financially for them, just the level of progress you could make at the professional level would really be. Be cool to see. but yeah, I'm, I'm kind of curious about that experience because I think. Hanson. Brooks has produced a few ultra runners between Dez Yourself, sage, Candidate and they're kind of known from my experience as a little bit more of like a high mileage, kind of big workload type of group. So I kind of just wonder if that sort of a setup is maybe a little more conducive to producing a future ultra marathoner if they decide not to do marathons specifically anymore or or maybe dabble in both? Yeah, I mean, I think so. Like honestly, looking at like I said earlier, like what my easy day is when I'm in a full like pure ultra block, it's copy and pasted from, from Kevin's training 14 and four or or 15 to 5 or something like that, or, you know, 13 and five. If I'm really tired in the morning, just get 18 or 20 miles on, on a recovery day. and I think to just kind of say this, I'll kind of circle back, but I think I would have been really successful at Hansons had I been a little more patient, given more time. I just had a pretty terrible trials race, finished 61st and 2020, and I was like, yeah, this isn't this isn't for me. I was still kind of immature and needed some growing up to do. Should have just honestly just locked back in, doubled down. I think it could have produced at least with my background, like I do pretty well in that type of training. And I think it really again, I still kind of do it and have progressed well. so I think that kind of program is conducive to running well in the altar space because. You know, for me, I remember sitting down with Kevin pre trials before we went down to Florida is like. You know December November of 2019. And he's like, you know what. Like what do you think you can hit. Mileage wise. I'm like you know if you're on board with it, like I think I can go 140, you know, 135 and 40. Like, yeah, I think, I think if you can recover from it, like you're going to be in a great position. and yeah, I mean, truthfully, like I got really, really, really fit, that winter getting ready for the trials in 2020. But I think for me, I just didn't come out of it. Well, as my first time running that volume. and that was for me again, a little demoralizing again. Now that's, you know, we're five years down the road, almost five and a half down the road from, from that point. And it's like, oh, no. Like. Like you, it was your first time doing it. And like, now I've kind of learned how to. You know, really taper off that stuff for major races like Olympic trials. But I think that system of basically doing, you know, a big three by three miles with, you know, long warmup, long cooldown, mile in between. You know, you're looking at an 18 mile. Check the. You might have to math check me there, but, you know, an eight mile, 18 mile morning with a double. You know, you're looking at, you know, 23, 24 mile days, possibly. then going, then going to, you know, two easy days of 14 and four, then coming back with another with a similar session of, you know, two by six miles or ten by a mile, you know, on the road with, with floats and like longer recovery just to add that volume and it, it really adds up and, you know, adds that, you know, cumulative fatigue, as I say, but that's I train with a fair amount of cumulative fatigue, truthfully. And I think if you can get yourself out of it and know how to recover from it, it's gonna be beneficial like a marathon or not for sure. And especially, you know, beyond like 50 K and 50 mile and ultra type work. So, yeah, I mean, I think the marathon through the 100 K has a lot more in common than it does different. And I would love to see the running world sort of get behind those events. Not feeling like a separation where it's like, okay, I'm a marathoner or I'm an ultra marathoner because I think, like, I think someone like yourself, if you're like, okay, I'm a target. Marathons, 50 K's, 50 miles, 100 K's, I think you can make that work. It's just about picking your battles. And when you want to go for one versus the other, I think like a lot of that marathon work will translate really well into things up to the at least up to the 100 K. And then from there, it's just like maybe getting a little more specific for one or the other in that last block of training. And yeah, I think it opens up the opportunity to because if you think about it like the ultra world is in a weird spot where like. If you make a name for yourself and you're willing to engage online and things like that and build a bit of a brand around yourself, there's money there for you. So probably more so than somebody who's running a, you know, 214, 215, 216 marathon that doesn't have a big online presence. So you could almost backdoor your way into taking big, productive, professional swings at a marathon by nailing something like what you've done in the 50 K in the 50 mile and then saying, all right, well, I'm going to spend six months just really speaking for a marathon here. If it goes great, awesome. If it doesn't, I'm going to have a tremendous fitness that I can translate into a build towards a 50 mile or 100 K, or for whatever the sponsors are, maybe like prioritizing you for more or less. And, my hope is that, like, we see more of that kind of thing happen and we don't have quite as much of a separation between those two. Yeah. And that's my thing. Like I've been able to really make a living and kind of build my brand around, you know, being able to I hate using the word hybrid, but like, you know, being able to to being able to yeah. Do a marathon. Well relatively and also like to use that fitness to go run a great ultra. You know again like and like I said when I started I trained basically as a marathoner I'll just throw extra volume here and there longer doubles. Instead of doing three by three miles, I'll do you know, four by three miles with maybe an extra mile at the end, like really hard. Or even just throw like 200 or 4in at the end of, like a big tempo, you know, just like, again, it's extra volume, extra speed. I think even, you know, if I can get faster, just like move, move the pendulum, you know, far this way hopefully my, you know, marathon pace, ultra pace you know, also follows. So that's kind of my mentality. And you know it's like the marathon to ultra worked extremely extremely well in 2023. Like I, I was basically you know circling back to like 2022 being injured. The trial standard came out of, you know, 218 for the 2024 trials in Orlando. and it was like, for me, it's like, if you consider yourself a good marathon in the US, like you gotta no matter what, you gotta at least have been OTC for the trials, you know, like so my goal like going into I ended up leaving roots the summer 2023 because I did want to go do some ultras type type stuff because it was just like, like, I think I can go get the 50. and then that's when I had signed up for Tunnel Hill the summer of 2023. but also I'm like, well, I got the trials then, you know, February of 2024. Like, I would like to be on that start line, even though it's like I don't have a shot at making a team, but I want to go try to beat a lot of people. I'm just a competitor, to my core. So I'm like, well, I think I can go, you know, do this build up. Get really marathon fit. Obviously I still do a little extra mileage, like where I think in a marathon, but I think my sweet spot is probably 125-130 for an ultra. I did 160 of them last fall. I think that's too much while also doing marathon type work. I think that just those two, at least for me, I, I, you know, broke myself, I think for an ultra. But if I can get like 4 to 5 weeks at 145 ish, maybe 150, that's kind of kind of my sweet spot going in. So that summer was pretty big. Pretty pretty big volume race 20 K champs. honestly got beat up pretty bad and that was to be expected. kind of partially trained through but then ran two 1610 at McCurdy basically tied my PR from CIM. exactly. Basically five years later, and then exactly four weeks later, 28 days later, ran Tunnel Hill and broke the 50 mile world record. So it was just basically recovering from that, getting just kind of maintaining fitness, not really pushing anymore for the extra three weeks. And then, yeah, ended up, you know, getting the fictional world record. And then unfortunately, I think I jumped right into a trial segment trying to get ready for that. And I got myself injured. I had a torn labrum, but I think it was definitely already torn. It had been torn for a while based on the MRI that we got. but just finally, finally started feeling symptoms, you know, naturally, like ten days before the trials in, in 2024. So, but yeah, just to your point, I think it's not the easiest, but you can definitely find a balance between running a marathon and using that fitness to go run really well at a, as in an ultra marathon. So yeah. Have you considered doing comrades? That's that. I was going to do it this year. Fortunately doesn't necessarily work with Adidas. I was going to do it with Nedbank. So. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So I couldn't do it. but I'm slated to do it next year with them. So got that built into my contract. So honestly next year is an up year, which I think suits me a little better than a down year. Going back to me, mentioning just the eccentric loading on my quads, the first thing I feel in any Ultraman is that my quads are the first thing to go, or even in a marathon, so it typically fatigues first. and just, you know, 6000 ft of elevation loss. Yeah. Does not sound extremely fun on the quads, but obviously if it goes well next year, like you got to come back and take another shot the following year. So, yeah. Comrades is one of the biggest races on my list. Like without a doubt. So that's great to hear. I would love to see someone from the US go over there and take a swing at the win, because I think it's like no one in the US has won it since Salazar. And I want to say Max King is the only American who's been in the top ten even since then. So, it's been a while since we've had any success over, over in, in South Africa, on the men's side, the women have done, done quite well at times. But, yeah. I mean, someone with your caliber of speed and kind of your sweet spot from what it looks like right now, which I think would be great for that course. And, you know, living in Boulder, too, it's like you can train on some, some rolling terrain that would get you ready for those hills at, at comrades in a unique way, I think. So, I'm excited for that. I'm glad you've got that on your radar. Yeah, I was a little bummed out. Just like, yeah, I probably might not work this year for us. And I was like. All right. Sounds good. But we'll make it worth your time if you do it next year. I'm like, all right. Deal? Deal. Yeah. And. Yeah, that's the thing to like in Boulder. It's perfect. I mean, going back to David, even, you know, you see. Have you seen his training videos at all? Yeah. Okay. Yeah I mean just training. It's like you know the dude's running up to Gold Hill and running back. You know it's like my place sits at like 5300 ft Gold Hills at you know 83 I think is what the sign says when you enter the town. But it's like, that's 3000ft up, 3000ft down, you know, basically in the simplest form. So it's like, you know, you can go, go get the vert needed to train for a race like comrades. So that's something I'll definitely be, you know, rotating in once I get to that build, you know, at some point next year. Yeah. Yeah. So with Tunnel Hill it was like you had decided you wanted to take a swing at the 50 mile world record. And then you found Tunnel Hill being a good opportunity for it. Or was it something like how did you come to that decision? Yeah, this was actually back in 2000 and right before my injury might have been late 2021, actually. I told Fernando Cabana, I'm like, yo, I want to go. I think I can go get the fifth mile world record. We're just having dinner one night down in Denver catching up. He's like, he's like, if you do it, go to Tunnel Hill. First time I'd ever heard of the race. Honestly, I had no clue. I'm like, I'm like, why? He's like, oh, dude, it's super flat. Yeah, like you do have a climb up to the the tunnel, but then you turn around and it's downhill for the last, you know, eight ish miles obviously flattens out towards the end. And I was like, yeah, cool. That's that's where I'll do it, you know? And I was kind of made up in my mind like, that's where I got to go for it. and then obviously I kind of joined routes, had well, had the injuries, joined routes. So I kind of had to put altered on the back burner because they're basically a marathon focus group. And that's what I was kind of told entering. I thought I'd be able to do a 50 K if I wanted to, but that was unfortunately scrapped as well. So as soon as I left, in the the summer of like that, July, maybe early August of 2023, it was like. I was like, yeah, maybe I'll go do like, maybe I'll go do an ultra. And I'm like, first thing to pop in my head was JFK. So I'm like, JFK is in the fall, I think. And then I'm like, I'm like, wait, no, what's that race that that Fernando mentioned? So actually I texted him and ask him like, yo, what was that 50 mile race you mentioned? It's like Tunnel Hill. I'm like, when is it? He's like, this November. I'm like done. So then I so then I went on the next day, signed myself up and emailed Steve Durbin. I'm sure, I'm sure, you know, Steve emailed him and I'm like, hey dude, I'm not sure if you get like get the slot, but I'm going for the world record, at your race this fall. so, like, you know, I'm just like, want to make sure it's USAtf certified? you know, gonna have everything necessary for, for record ratification. You know, I'm sure he, he kind of gets it almost every year or here's something like that. So he, he played it pretty cool. All right. If you think so. Yeah. Like we'll we'll, you know, do this make sure it's actually, you know, exactly 50 miles. That's why the start line was kind of moved back to the, into the course a little bit. But yeah I'm happy I ended up backing that up. So yeah. But yeah, it was just kind of planted in my head by Fernando basically almost three years prior. No two years prior in 2021 that fall or, you know, early winter 2022. Right. Exactly when we had that dinner. But, yeah, fortunately, fortunately worked out. So that was just the place. And even looking at the course map, obviously it's not cool to see the, you know, it's flat and then you see the yeah, you know, the course profile, but but at the same time, it's like it's still pretty advantageous if you can get to the tunnel feeling, feeling good. So. Yeah. And it's one of those courses where, I mean, I've done the 100 mile a couple times there, and I haven't quite paced it perfectly because my thought is like, if you really nail that course, pace wise, you get that turnaround and you come down that hill to finish. It's like you've got just a little extra push, a little extra wind at your sails to really kind of hammer it in home, and then you have a couple miles of flat after that. So like if you care that momentum down that hill and then just keep ripping because you're smelling the barn at that point it has like that nice setup. But if you time it a little bit wrong, then you go up that hill that, that, that, that hill at the end of the last loop. And it's just like it'll eat you alive, even though it's not crazy high. It's an interesting course. And I mean, if that, if that was actually paved too, like that's the other thing is like people don't always because since it's produced a ton of fast times, people think it's probably about as fast as it can get. And it is about as fast as you can probably find in the US. For as far as 50 mile courses go, there are a couple that are maybe a little faster if you get good weather. The nice thing about tunnels, you almost always get good weather. It's like maybe 1 in 10 years you'll get snow or something like that, but usually it's like 40 to 60 degrees, or at least very runnable for like the the types of stuff that you're doing. But. Yeah, but I mean, it's. It's one of those things where when I see times like what you put up, my mind always goes to. What about perfectly flat and paved? Yeah. How much faster could he go? Yeah. That's true, I definitely think I think it's like kind of a give and take with that though, because for me, like, especially asking Fernando, I'm like, you know why Tunnel Hill is like, well, it's flat fast. You do have some a climb towards on the back half. But he's like but it is like crushed sandstone, which is like it's not as fast as, as concrete or pavement, but it will save your legs a little bit throughout the course of the race. So it was kind of so hearing that, I was like, yeah, that makes sense. Like I do a lot of my long runs, you know, on the Boulder farm roads, mostly gravel, or like very crushed gravel. so I'm like, yeah, that does make it. It will save your legs a little bit. So but I definitely think it was paved. You're probably getting you probably know better than I, I would I would guess maybe a minute maybe, but but then you're also risking, you know, your quads blowing up or you know, something, you know, just the pounding, adding up. But no, I definitely agree that, you know, if it was paved, it could be it could be a little quicker. Also. No, not to not to slighting any trail people. But I do love when people are like, you know. Do some trails, like like a real ultra runner. And I'm like, Tunnel Hill is a trail, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've gotten it. I've gotten into it online with, with a few people. And it's just like, I just like Tunnel Hills, a trail, like, I don't I don't know what else you want me to say. yeah. You know, there's there's my trail race for you. Yeah. If you want to do a trail like a technical trail or something like that, great. But I think we need to embrace, like, what you're trying to do too, because it's like it takes a lot of work. And, I mean, I get this question a lot, too, because I've skewed definitely towards more vulnerable courses over my career and, you know, 400 meter loops and stuff like that. So it's like, yeah, I mean, the ultra world is there. They sort of don't always differentiate with a specialization that's actually required a lot of times to the degree where like, you know, people will I mean, I think this is part of the fun is like predicting, well, what would so-and-so do here or there? And what if I go onto a mountain? What if a mountain runner goes onto the roads and things like that? And, it's like one of those things where, like, you have to really kind of unpack what's actually going on in some of these events before you start thinking like. How is that going to translate? Because it's like you do have to get when you're getting going after times like you are, specificity is going to be a big determinant because it's not as important as your overall fitness in terms of core specificity, but it's important enough where, you know, if you're just training in the mountains all the time doing trail races, then you pop down at Tunnel Hill, you know you're going to be a few minutes slower versus if you train specifically for Tunnel Hill and for you, that's the difference between a world record or not. So, yeah, I mean, I think the sport has grown. It's just going to probably specialize more and more. And it's just like we don't see people, you know, winning the Olympics. Well, I should say we don't. But it's really rare that we see people doing amazing out of such a variety of events that they can kind of be a jack of all trades. Whereas in ultrarunning you can kind of still do that to some degree. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing too. I mean, I, I think I could do decently well on the trails, truthfully, but also too, it's like I would need probably a pretty dedicated block to go in to even be like. Semi competent on the trails. We set the standard that I want to be at. I mean, if I'm entering the trails like I want to be, you know, throwing haymakers at yeah, yeah, I'll be throwing haymakers at Jim 75 miles in the Western States if I'm if I'm running if I'm running trail races, you know, so like that would take, you know, a lot more vert, a lot more like, I hate technical stuff, man. Like, I, I just I'm not I don't run technical trails, like, I just don't I run on the farm roads, and tracks and, and roads for sessions. but at the same time it's like I definitely have the, the engine leg speed for it. It's just like, you know, could I get the technical, technical work down, and obviously get more vert underneath my legs then it's also too, it's like, well, I mean, we've seen Jim do it. Jim's also a monster, you know, go from the trails to, you know, the 50 mile, the 100 K, you know, Jim's, you know, kind of one on one, though. So, but but I do think, you know, all the guys, like, you know, Hayden, obviously, I think David could run a really good, you know, road 50 road, hundred K road, road a hundred mile even. so I think it's it takes a pretty special athlete to do it, but I think there is kind of a ability to go back and forth if, if you, you want to. But truthfully, at this point, it's like I just got a road contract. There's absolutely no point for me to. Yeah. To go. To go anywhere near the trails. You know, even Boulder's got great trails, but, like, I'm not risking going rolling an ankle and missing. Missing training so. Yeah I mean it's cool that you have a contract that actually wants you to do the roads because I think most ultra runners that are signing, you know, contracts to the degree where they can focus on their training and racing primarily are going to have the opposite in their contract if. I mean, you might get some that are a little more open minded, but a lot of them probably are like, hey, you know, we'd really like you to be doing golden ticket races and try to get into Western states, or we'd really like you to be out at Utmb, and they're focusing on kind of those big name trail races. And if you kind of sit down with them and say, yeah, you know, I would like to do comrades or I'd like to do world Hunter caves or something like that. They might be like, that's cool, but if we're going to pay you this, we really need you to be at canyons, or we need you to be at the SEC or something like that. So, I think that's probably a sign that there's some growth in the sport or some of these brands are looking to maybe, maybe they've seen the growth in the trails and they're like, hey, there's an interest here as a spectator. Well, we can put some eyeballs on some of these other events that haven't grown quite as fast and maybe ramp that up a little bit. growth I guess, is positive. Yeah. I mean, and that's exactly the gap that Adidas saw. You know, and they're like, shit. Like we have guys that can go do some pretty special things. So we think we can go get guys that want to do special things on the road. Ultra scene. It's like, why would we not invest some cash in this? And again, it's for my deals. It's only been a couple of years. So it's like if they want to move on from it, they can move on from it. Obviously I want to show them that it's well worth their time and hopefully get, you know, extend that to four years. Would love to do it again. That's you know this hard this sport is it's hard to come by by deals you know. So so we'll see. So I'm gonna try to take advantage of the best I can, you know, with the couple of years I have with Adidas. But, Yeah. It's cool. I mean, they, they definitely see, see an opportunity. And I think you bring up an interesting point. I don't know why it made me think of this, but, obviously, you know, you know, Adam V, I don't know how to pronounce his last name, but. Yeah, like one of the nicest dudes dudes I know. I mean, he literally lives, like, a mile and a half away from me. So we we run together on occasion. And a few years ago, you know, he mentioned not a few years ago, a few months ago, he had an Instagram post. Just like why wrote ultras like. Like deserve a little more more attention, a little more hype. And it's just like. It's way more accessible than trails. most people, most, you know, people that work a 9 to 5 job, like they get out and they go around on the sidewalks going on roads. They're not like they don't have time to drive to trailhead and, you know, go spend hours, you know, just getting some vert or running the trails. It's like, yeah, the marathon's marathon is great. I mean, that's that's the money maker in road running, right? But like, there is a gap in a space for people that if they want to run farther, they don't have access to trails. It's like, yo go do a road ultra like it's like super easy to go. I mean, don't run. There's not as many, you know, road 50 K as road 100 K is like, you know, those out there, but like they are out there and they do offer, you know, like they're super, super easy to, you know, one sign up for and basically easier to train for in my opinion. So, I think that's a, you know, definitely an untapped market for sure. Yeah, yeah, it'll be interesting to see where that goes in the coming years. It'll be fun. Fun to watch, like watch maybe more events pop up and things like that. I know arrow, Viper. I think they're working with Mountain Coast to put on some, some more 100 K road races because there's just a it's actually kind of funny because like if you want to qualify for the 100 K team, the most direct way to do that is run a fast 100 K. And there's Mad City and then there is, what's the one over in California. I'm trying to think of what the name of that one is. Look, I know exactly what you're talking about, but I don't know the name. It's like Raj won a couple years ago. Jeff was second. Yeah, it's usually hot or was hot as all heck a couple years ago. Yeah. Aha. Yeah. So then it's just like you almost need the stars to align to even put together a strong team. Then. Because you're going to prioritize 100 K splits over. They've gotten a little more subjective with the criteria. obviously, like when you go and rip a 448 in the 50 mile, they're like, hey, you want to run 100 K team? I'm pretty sure you could probably translate well. so like they're, they're looking at it through that lens a little bit more. But it's just as accessible as the training is. The race opportunities aren't always there for people to go. and really kind of go after a fast time that would maybe get them excited about it. I mean, one year I qualified for world Hunter K's through the Hunter K split on a track 100 miles, and it was just like, I think I split like 659 or something like that. And it got me to the fifth spot or something like that. And yeah, it was just like that, that was one of the better opportunities. I mean, you could go to a track and do 100 K, I guess, if you want to tolerate that. But that would be a very fast spot to do it and a very accessible spot to do it. Because actually these track ultras are probably more this track. Ultras are more common. Then the 100 K road races are so you'd have they'd be more accessible. Just picking one that's going to give you decent enough weather to rip for 100 K on. But yeah. So it's I hope hopefully we see that grow to just the event opportunities to kind of match the people kind of getting into it. Yeah. No, I agree I mean that'd be again it would help like to your point, it would help people just get into it because again, it's like for people that might not be fully prepared to go at marathon speed, it's like it's an easy going on 50 K, it's slightly more relaxed, obviously more time on feet. But it's something you can train for. But it's like, where are these opportunities? Hopefully we start seeing them pop up. So yeah, definitely respect the people that go do it. Like I honestly like going back to your track like a track culture. I think that we'll see if I ever do one. I think it'd be great to go, go get a record. And I think honestly, the advantage there is like, well, what question do you ask? You switch directions usually every four hours. They'll switch you around. So for you it's like 50 miles. Yeah. Yeah. So but also it's like, well, if you think you need a gel or something. Yeah. At any point you like, I'll get it in 350m. You know, it's like that's definitely advantageous to, you know, keep the fuel rolling too. So, yeah, logistically, it's so easy. Yeah, that's the nice thing. The hardest thing with the track Ultras, actually, in terms of like, you can, you can control and optimize almost everything, especially if you go to like six days in the dome and do one of their, one of their options because it's indoor at the Pettit Center, they keep it at 55°F. Climate controlled, no wind. The only problem is, and this isn't unique to this one, this is all these track ultras are. They're not built for like, fast 100 and below. They're built for 24 hours and beyond usually. So yeah, you're going to get the folks doing those events and you're going to go around them. So like when I ran 1119 on that event, I was basically in lane 2 or 3 the entire time. Just because once the field spreads out, You can dip in occasionally, but a lot of times, you know you're just going to go around on the turn and and have to. So you do. I mean, you're going to run like, what is it that the estimation on tangents on a marathon is like 1% or something like that? So you're going to have that no matter what. Probably. But you would think like, all right, I'm, I'm going to put myself through the psychological nightmare of being on a track for this race. I should be able to get the exact distance. You're still not, you're still going to probably run a mile or more beyond that just from lane two, three stuff. unless we can get it to. I mean, you could you only need three people in an event to go after a record so you could build an event to do that where it's like, all right, we got a handful of people here who are going to go after records between, you know, 100 K, 100 miles or whatever happens to be and just keep that, that either keep the the numbers low or just have it be select enough where no one's going to be slow enough, where I really have to worry about lapping people more than like. Everyday. Well, maybe not at all. Or if you do, it's because they're blowing up and they're stepping out in lane 2 or 3 and letting people go by. versus the current setups that we have. Yeah. This is an obvious question. How? Because like, I had buddies in college who, you know, grew up in the state of Wisconsin and ran from Minnesota. Loved the Pettit. Yeah. Like how, how and I should know this, like being grown up in Minnesota. How long is the Pettit track? Is it 300m or is it 400, 443? Okay. Never mind. Yeah. It was some off. Yeah. It's long. It's actually long. Yeah. Yeah I mean that's great. That's great. Yeah. Yeah I think it comes out to like I think it was like 363 laps or something like that was 100 miles on that one. So you do a few less laps with that, which is nice. But yeah, it's cool to see what they've done with that event. And yeah, the other one, I mean, Desert Solstice is a pretty good spot. You're gonna I mean, the weather's about as good as you're ever going to get in Phoenix that time of year, but you still get that bright sun hitting you in. You could get some every once in a while they'll get rain, which is rare, but you could get wind and rain and things like that. So, you know, Pettit Center is the easiest one to just kind of really dial in all the controls that you can manage anyway. Yeah. Indoors. Indoors. Great. What's your thought on treadmill records? I think they're interesting, but they're like, they're super hard to really dial in because one like when I did, I did 100 miler during the pandemic because I was going to go over and do the Centurion hundred over in London flat or it's a track ultra. and then the pandemic came. Everything got cancelled. I think it was like maybe 4 or 5 weeks out from that race. So I was basically at the pinnacle of preparation. And I said, well, what do I do with this fitness other than nothing? And, you know, the treadmill was basically the only option available. So I did that. And just like the number of hoops you have to jump through because, like, you have to get your treadmill certified and calibrated because it's like you go to any random gym or anyone's personal treadmill. And it's like, chances are it's not accurate. yeah. So you have to have that. You have to have a mechanic on site. You got to have really ideally you have like a big convention hall so that you can get better airflow. yeah. One of the biggest hurdles I had is I did it in a room, like a small bedroom, essentially, or office room in our house. So it's like we had the air conditioner cranked up as high as it could go, and it was like it was in Phoenix. So it was like 100 degrees that day. We couldn't get the temperature in the room below 80 degrees at a certain point because I'm just like sweating balls. Like creating a microclimate of heat around me. And yeah, that's a, that's a, that's a tough day. Yeah. So it was interesting. But like I think just from like a certification side of things, it's like there's a lot of steps you have to take to actually get it certified versus like you know nowadays you can you can throw a camera on and jump on a treadmill and say, okay, I'm going to run, run this. But then how is it? It's the same problem you get with others like race certification and stuff like that, which you, I'm sure you probably dealt with, even Tunnel Hill where it's like, how do I get doping control? How do I get core certification, how do I get enough timers on this? And you end up having to try to check those boxes? So I think it's kind of interesting. I wish it would standardize to some degree. I don't know how you would do it because you can't really pick a brand or anything like that. I guess you just standardize, like the way the treadmill is set up, to collect the data. But if you can do that, I think it's kind of cool . I mean, it's like anything, an ultra, I guess it's different. So, it's kind of a fun one. And people, people. Think it's just that it's got a cool storyline behind it too. It's like running 100 miles on a treadmill is just kind of absurd. Or 24 hours on a treadmill, 50 miles on a treadmill. yeah. So are you thinking about one? I mean, for, I mean, like, full transparency. I was talking to, And I'll just say it. I was talking to Wahoo this past fall. Okay. you know, I would have loved to have the kicker run. I have a peloton tread that gets the job done for 95% of the stuff I need to do. but honestly, you know, the kind of pitch was like, you know, like, what can we do with you on? I'm like, I mean, I am game for, for a temp. But it was again, it's like you got to do so many hoops to do it. And ultimately we never got a deal done. So we didn't even, you know, get to that talking point. But it was something like oh would you be interested in doing this if we got a deal? Then I was like, yeah, you know, I would so, you know, again, who wants to go ahead and sponsor, you know, the attempt or, you know, get behind or be the official treadmill of Ultra Records. Yeah, that'd be sick. I mean, that would be super helpful for the sport and honestly, like, people doing stuff like that, but, But yeah, ultimately I don't see myself doing it anytime soon. You know what the move might be for that would be to try to leverage something they're already sinking a ton of money into. So like outdoor or not outdoor, like the running event or something like that, if they're going to have a booth at the running event, they're already going to have like a bunch of stuff set up. And I mean, they actually did this for the 50 mile world record, I think, with, they did it in was it the NordicTrack booth? And it might have been an Outdoor Retailer, actually. and they had that set up. It was actually during the convention. So now you have spectators, you have like a sideshow going on that's going to draw people into your booth. So they're incentivized to look at that as like a better add on to their marketing budget. You get the convention hall, which is great because you have better airflow. They're probably keeping it nice and chilly, and I'm always freezing at the running event, so I assume they keep it cold there. Yeah, and I think that's probably the way to do it, is try to get a brand that's going to be at the running event and say, hey, what were you thinking about this? Or what do you think about this? And then see if they want to weave that into their whatever massive budget they build around that sort of thing. Yeah. That's also like just this is a complete side note. That's also an event I, I got to get to at some point because I, it just looks like one. Everyone is there. It's so much fun. Yeah. I'm just sitting in Boulder. I need to like for the last two years, des Dess texted me because she goes every year. She's like, yo, you go to the running event. I'm like, nah, I don't really have a reason to. And you know, going, yeah, how about this year? I'm like, I don't have a reason to. I'm like, if some brand wants to like, wants to pay me. Well, actually, my old nutrition sponsor sponsor asked me if I wanted to go and I said yes, but I'm going to need like I was like basically during my Hunter world block. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna need, you know, x amount of dollars to, to make it worth my time. eventually they honestly, they just didn't follow up after that. So yeah, I guess I'm, I guess I'm not going, but, But. Yeah. No, it looks looks like a fun, fun event to be around, honestly. So yeah, it is. I'm spoiled. Not well, actually, it's not in Austin anymore. So it has been in Austin, so I've been able to go the last few years just like 3 or 4 miles from the convention. So it's been easy for me. But, I think it's where's the Antonio now? I think, yeah, for sure. San Antonio. So it's still not that far from where I'm at. But, not quite as easy as I could hop on my bike and head down there if I wanted to when it was in Austin. But yeah, with Austin traffic and just right, it's probably faster to hop on the bike. Yeah, exactly. Cool. Yeah. So I don't know if I asked you, but you. So the 50 K obviously was a success and a good kind of kickoff for the year. And with your partnership with Adidas and everything, what other stuff you got planned coming up? Right now it is grandma's half. Just honestly working on getting faster. I was kind of wanting to do the full, but honestly, I'm like, that takes a lot. A lot of recovery. I'm kind of using it as a bridge. And then I'm going to get ready for 100 K world record attempt at Tunnel Hill. So I've already talked to I talked to Dirk. He's going to do basically 100 K math. he's just going to extend it out like you're going to do the normal 5050 mile course. Come down off the flat and go basically an extra ten K, turn around ten K back roughly on on the flat. So he had a gentleman telling me, like, what if we send him back up the hill? I'm like, no, no, no, no, I'm not doing I'm like, I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. He's like, all right. Well he's like, good. I'm happy you had a strong opinion because you like, you didn't care. We would have listened to this other gentleman like, yeah, I refuse to. I'm not going back up that thing. Like I'll take, I'll take like so I'm going to grind up, I'll take the head of steam down. And then it's just like, you know, whatever I got for the next 20 K basically. So, so yeah. So that's the, that's the plan for, for the year. So and I think, I think I can hopefully honestly the half is I want to try to run my PR 6414 from that race, 2018. so I'm going to love to go. Honestly, a PR I'd be probably a, you know, a a B goal. I think a goal is probably around 63 low. I'd love to break 63, but I don't want to go. I'm the kind of athlete where if I go go too hard, I'm going to redline and cross that line and I'm just going to blow up. so for me, it's just probably locking in that, you know, for 50 for as long as I can. So that's, In the short term. Short term, I guess. Next couple of months, that's the that's the goal. So. Yeah. Well, hopefully you go and bust that 100 K world record and then Tunnel Hill makes the 100 K an official event there too. Because that would be another great spot just to to slide one in where where you could get fast hundred K opportunities. I mean that would probably by default become the fastest 100 K course in the US. just by the nature of how Tunnel Hill set up versus where these other events are at the moment, outside of track. So man, that's gonna be fun. And yeah, so 605 is what you'd be looking at for that one, right? That's where Sorokin got it at the moment. Yeah. full disclosure I want to put it under six. That's it. Yeah, that's my goal. obviously easier said than done. At his race I went through 50 K in 258. And this is a total salute to Alexander. Man. I don't know how he does it in his courses. Like I, I just don't mean, the loop I did was like 1.8 K had seven turns of basically 90 degrees or more. And it's just like just like I just and this falls on me like I saw the course and I thought it'd be just a little smoother after seeing it, but it's, it's straight up turns and turns at like, and I just did I didn't I wasn't prepared for that. You know, I just was not prepared to have my rhythm broken that often. And like, even though it's only a small change of pace and take it back up like it adds up over the course of 50, 60 or 70 K and and once and once. Basically I fell off pace. I was like, I'm like. Like, I'm not here for the American record. Like, I'm just gonna honestly cut it because. Because I just found out that I made the world record team. Like, two days before the race. Even so, I'm like, I don't want to do any damage. I don't want to, like. So just cut it. But no, that's a salute to him, man. That way, he's able to go run as fast as he does on changing paces and taking all those turns. Yeah. but yeah. No, hopefully. And even just talking about that tunnel hill like, I think this year it'll be basically one big weekend if he wants to do a 50 K to. So it could be like a 50 K 50 mile, 100 K, 100 mile. And I think he'll still do the marathon as well. So I think it could even be, you know, like do it in, you know, early spring or you know like make it to two events where it's a 50 mile, 100 mile, 50 K, 100 K, you know, type, type event. So yeah, but yeah, hopefully it becomes, you know, kind of a regular event for him because it's cool. you know, seeing, you know, different race management in his company, you know, with all the races he does and even showing Jim, trying to think what else? You probably know nothing more than I do one of the Barkley preparation ones. Yeah. so, yeah, just just a good dude for the ultra sport for sure. No doubt. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, just crewing on that course too is so easy because that road just runs right parallel with the path. So it's like you can have someone just hop out of the crew, you drive a few minutes to the next spot, just repeat. It's super easy on them. You don't have to really worry about a whole lot. Yeah, it's set up nicely, so I'd love to see them build that out. But yeah, it'll be awesome to see kind of how you progress through training and everything and go in and take a swing at that. It'll definitely be, definitely something I'll be looking forward to watching. Yeah. Do you have anything on your calendar or do you have to make it? Yeah. So I, I mean I'm a bit on my own, my plan at the beginning of the year was Pat at center. It was going to take a swing at 100 miles there. And that's still loosely the plan. But as we were talking before, I'm sort of managing the Achilles issue. So whether I'm able to get this sorted in time with enough running and right now it looks like I'm going to at least have to be doing some of my training that would have been running as cycling, for, for the next few weeks at least. So I'm in a little bit of like no man's land in terms of what I can expect from prior experience. And that'll be I'd still like to do it either way. It just might depend on kind of where my goals are for the day versus like trying to PR versus just running as fast as I can tolerate, with that. But yeah, I mean, beyond that, I mean, I want to get to Tannehill again and another 100 miler there because I ran a pretty strong hundred mile for the first time, but I misplaced it a little bit. And I had some fueling issues too that caused a little bit of digestive digestive issues. That slowed me down a bit. And I just think like, I mean, I love Olson. I loved to see him when he went and crushed it a couple of years ago, because when I ran 1208 there, the first thing I thought was like, this is at least 1140 course at least 1140. so I'd like to go back there and at least kind of get close to that, or maybe close to Isla's time now that he's lowered it even further than 11 than that. So, that's just, that would be one that I'd potentially do if things are going kind of in the right direction heading that way. The problem is like. I love javelina too. As far as the trails go, that's one of my favorite trail courses because it's super runnable. So yeah, if you ever got interested in 100 Mile Trail, outside of the Tunnel Hill style trail, that would be a cool one because there's like, no technicality on that. It's just like ripping dirt roads, basically, for the most part. Yeah. Yeah. I think if I, I think if I did, that'd be pretty probably the move beyond Tunnel Hill. But I'll say this with you biking like this build. For me the 50 K build was only eight weeks off of running because I came back from my Achilles PRP. started jogging a little bit and then my, my pro on the same side. Floyd, because I was compensating all too much. So I missed basically three and a half weeks of just pure cycling. like I was freaking out. So I went and bought the Zwift bike. So I'm just hammering, hammering up the Zwift, throwing on a sweat suit, you name it. So I mean, for me, it just kind of, you know, with your situations, like I think you definitely for me, I, I don't think I lost fitness, that's for sure, because I was doing 3 or 4 hours a day of, of bike or pool, you know, mostly majority bike. So it's like definitely something you can, you know, still probably have a day you want out. I would guess. So, yeah, I'm kind of curious about it too, because like, I don't know, it could be a better strategy than what I've done in the past. I mean, I've been a pretty high mileage runner over my career where, you know, many years I've averaged 100 miles a week and I'd have peak weeks in the one 50s and things like that. But I've never done a training block that included like a substantial amount of cross training in place of some of those mileage. And I think if I can get in the quality sessions, like the long runs, that goal, race intensity and some of the quality work and speed workout, if I can get those running sessions in and then maybe buffer some of those slower miles that I would do when I'm hitting those high miles with bike miles instead, I think there's probably a path forward that who knows, maybe, maybe will be even better than I did. Was able to do it with the running stuff. So, you have to be optimistic about it, right? You can't bet on it any worse. No, I mean, if there's someone that can get it done, you know, it's probably, you know, it's like, you know, and for me to, like, like I just because I was afraid of injuring it. Like I didn't double in February at all. I barely got through my first week. My first time running back was February, like the 15th or 16th. And even then I was like, you know, a three mile run and then, you know, a 90 minute, bike ride in my sweat suit, you know, so it's just like, you know, so that's why I even supplemented my doubles for February with the bike. So it's, you know, definitely, definitely doable. And I think it honestly helped me. From going too hard, too early and running because I've, I've gotten probably too far ahead of myself and then gotten, you know, torn Achilles, torn labrum. You know, I've had a couple stress fractures now. It's just like it's kind of a good balance, I think, especially for ultras, too. It's like for me at least, the first thing that goes are typically my quads. And the bike is really quad dominant. So yeah, that's what my angle was, you know, the entire time. So it's building the future comrades down champion right now as those bike sessions. Exactly, exactly. Awesome. Well, it's been awesome to chat, Charlie. Before I let you go, if you have anything else you want to chat about, we can definitely dive in. But, I want to make sure we let people know who is listening, where they can kind of find you on socials, online and that sort of stuff. Yeah, definitely. Instagram. Lawrence underscore char fairly active there. try to keep the quality content rolling and then, not only Twitter. Truthfully, it's mostly me just trolling my college teammates, and sending dumb memes back and forth and also to YouTube. So, I just launched a YouTube channel that started this year. One of my sponsors, stride, is helping sponsor that channel. so that's another way to basically just pump out a video once a month. Hopefully I want to, you know, keep continuing to grow and hopefully post a little more. but yeah, definitely IG, probably not Twitter and definitely YouTube. So we'll just keep it on IG and YouTube. So Charlie Lawrence I think is what it is, what it is on YouTube. So, is the YouTube channel up and running already or is that coming out to be determined up and up? Yeah, it's up and running. Launched officially in January. Then of course, like, you know, started jogging. Of course. You know, me being probably too aggressive went on, ran, ran, drove up to Gold Hills and ran the hills at Gold Hill like my second week, week back running. And it was just a terrible idea. And then my personality flares up like a week later. Then I missed, you know, three and a half weeks. So, that was the first video. Actually, I want to start with a banger. So that was it. And I actually got a lot of traction in the last couple of videos. It was kind of like me coming back injured. But yeah, hopefully we'll get, honestly, we're doing like a 50 K recap video, kind of do the rest of my training throughout really the summer getting ready for grandma's, getting ready for 100 K. That's really kind of what I cited in the first video was like, this is going to be hopefully a year long series, kind of just documenting my, my build up. So hopefully we'll be able to tell you guys a little bit, you know, more through that and obviously Instagram as well. So. Well I'm stoked because my YouTube videos are how I pass the time on the bike. So if you're putting up content, I'll be checking it out. So I appreciate it. I got you, man. Yeah, I'll try to get one up there soon for you. Perfect. Awesome. Well, thanks again, Charlie, for taking some time. It's been awesome to kind of hear about your progression into ultrarunning and what you got coming up. Yeah, man, I appreciate you having me on. This is, honestly, like what's hopeful to be on here at some point and, you know, glad to finally, you know, make it happen. So super appreciative, dude. Absolutely. No. We'll have you back on when you crush the 100 KM world record. How about that? Well, look forward to it. Take care. Yeah. See you bro.