Episode 490: Multiday Ultramarathon Performance Insights | Kevin Goldberg

Multiday Ultramarathons are growing in popularity, but offer a high bar to be successful. Kevin Goldberg is the host of the “Distance To Empty Podcast” where they dive into the specific variables surrounding multiday ultras. We discussed what he has learned from experts along the way, as well his own participation in this style of ultramarathon.

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Episode Transcript:

Alright. Kevin, welcome to the show. Thanks, Zach. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, absolutely. It's one of these things where I've been podcasting long enough now. I know how these startup things go, where we hop on the recording platform and we just start chatting, and then I realize, you know what?

We should just be recording this. So now I just try to get us to record as quickly as possible, and then we can deal with whatever post-recording editing that needs to be done at that point. But better to have the conversation and catch it versus repeat it. Oh, totally. I can't tell you how many times I've hit a stop to end an episode, and then we just do some banter afterwards, and I'm like, "Man, I wish we were still recording."

That was the best part. Yeah. Yeah Anyway, though, I think we have a really fun topic to talk about today, and, you know, one thing we were chatting about a bit was just the growth of the multi-day stuff. And I wanna share something with you, too, because I've been talking to more of the ultra-day, or ultra-marathon folks just because I've been very curious in the different variables that go into that, and specifically kind of how they are different from even stuff that we would consider within the ultra-running umbrella, which I think our sport has uniquely gotten to this point where now we're not necessarily comparing ourselves as much to the running community as a whole as we are within our own community of ultra-marathons, which I think is just a sign of growth.

And I think it's important just from a sport that we're still learning a lot about from both the performance side of things, the safety side of things, the training side of things, that we are discussing the variances so people are as informed with as much education as they can when they sign up for these things, 'cause they're not cheap, they're not always safe, and the more information you have and the better prepared you are, the better you are to probably have a good experience.

So it's been fun to dive into this topic. And when I've been doing that over the last year or so more frequently your podcast, Distance to Empty, comes up quite a bit from my listeners or people that I'm just chatting to about someone who has sort of dove into this area and kinda made that your primary topic of your podcast, and has offered a lot of resources for people who are interested in that and are, are doing it.

So I think it's just an awesome collaboration to have you on here and chat about the topic. Yeah. No, thanks. I'm, I'm super stoked. I've listened to your podcast for a long time, and I'm especially interested when I see something pop up that's kind of in our space. As you see more and more these days there's so much more coverage happening within the 200-plus mile distance, which is awesome to see.

Uh, and it just kinda stokes our fire. Having run my first 200-plus in 2018, the amount of resources available today for someone getting into the distance for the first time versus, you know, seven, eight years ago, is-- it's night and day. It's crazy. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and another thing I find really interesting about the sport as a whole is a lot of times the lens we look at growth through is are people able to prioritise or do people have to prioritize a specific distance or duration because the com- competition is so great that you have a scenario where if you're not specializing, you're gonna get out-competed by someone who does, versus what we maybe saw a handful of years ago even, where if you were a good 50-mile runner, you were probably a good 100-mile runner, you were probably-- You know, you kind of could do everything at a pretty high level, whereas I think we're starting to see that thin out a little bit.

But we don't always look at it through the growth in the media side of things, too, where I do wonder now if you have a big media outlet, maybe you have a bunch of different branches that cover the different areas of ultramarathon in detail. But if you're kind of like you or myself, where you're a solo host, you-- I think we see-- what we see as growth is we see podcasts pop up that are going to take a portion of the sport in a little bit more, uh, focus, and then you can just dive super deep.

Because now, all of a sudden, if your topic is multi-day ultramarathon, you don't have to just catch your- find yourself getting limited to "All right, I'm really only talking to the top finishers. I have a lot of space to operate within. Here's what's happening in the middle of the pack. Here's what's happening to people fighting cutoffs.

Here's what's happening in just the enjoyment side of it versus the performance side of it." And there's all sorts of cool stuff in there that you can really get into when you have that more kind of narrow lens. Yeah, absolutely. And, and that's kind of what we really try to stay true to, is yeah, we're storytelling, yeah, we're having on people who are winning these things, but we're also having on people from, like you mentioned, all throughout the pack, and kind of-- These races are so long, and you can see from watching the livestream at Cocodona it's storytelling.

There's a lot happening throughout these races that go beyond running, that go beyond ultrarunning. It's just there's really cool stories out there, and everyone has one, so we're trying to cover as many stories as we can. And then also, there's, like, all the variables and puzzle pieces that go into ultrarunning are magnified when you go into the multi-day, multi-night space.

So we've had sleep scientists, sleep scientists who don't specialize in running at all, which is a really cool conversation. We've had on, you know, registered dieticians, physical therapists, to sort of dive into what they think is different about, you know, these things when you push beyond night one, beyond night two, because all of these things kind of are, are, you know, just magnified when you go day after day.

So diving into that part of it, too, has been really interesting for us. Yeah, that's awesome. And I, I wanna pin what you just said there as a little bit of an outline of what are some topics I wanna cover with you, because I think that's just a really interesting component here. But before we jump into that and get too far into it, I do just wanna ask you kinda generally speaking what was your initial draw towards multi-day ultramarathon, or even just ultramarathon as general?

Was there something that kinda got you excited about the sport, that made you decide to invest a lot of time and then start a podcast on it? Yeah. So, I mean, my intro into the sport itself was I, I met my wife when she was training for her first marathon. So in college, I met a girl when she was training for a marathon, and that's what she was doing on the weekend, so I just started kinda doing the training.

Then I ran the race, because back then you could just sign up for the Chicago Marathon without having to go through all the hoopla. Uh, and then I ran a few more marathons. You know, I ran my first one in five hours. I was like, "Oh, that was easy. I can do three." And then I realized that that's a, uh, that's not a, a real jump that you can just do.

So I kinda hated this, you know, trying to go faster. Running hard felt hard. So I literally stumbled upon an ultramarathon. Was out hiking and, uh, you might remember the North Face Endurance Challenge Series, so the New York race. I was out hiking while that was going on. Uh, went home and signed up for the DC version that night, and was immediately hooked.

Uh, and then climbed the ladder pretty quickly from there. This was back probably around 2012, 2013. And then how I got into the 200 space, I had hip surgeries in 2016 and 2018, 2016 and 2017, so October and Janu- uh, January of those years. And they're pretty major hip surgeries. I wasn't certain if I was going to be able to return to the sport I had fallen in love with.

So the 200s entered the scene post hip surgery, when I was kind of trying to prove to myself that this was worthwhile. I was, you know, starting to run again, starting to train again, and wanted to see hey, did, did, did you do the right thing? Were these hip surgeries the right call for you?

So I stumbled upon the Bigfoot 200. Ran that about a year later in 2018, and then I was like, "This is my, this is my space. This is what I love." So yeah, that's how I got into the 200s, and then, uh, I guess we started the podcast two and a half years ago, so late 2023-ish. Uh, and it's just me and my co-host, Peter.

We-- All we do is, you know, talk about 200s with everyone who will listen. And we were like, "Why don't we just start recording this so our wives get a break?" And it really took off, and people, people wanna hear these stories about these crazy multi-night races. Yeah, that's funny. And also, I'll mention this too, the North Face Endurance Challenge I think was a catalyst for a lot of people to get into the sport.

And, you know, unfortunately it doesn't exist anymore, but that was my first Ul- the, the Midwest one version of that series was my first and second ultramarathon. So those two events, or those two years of that same event were very influential in my decision, all right, this is kind of similar to your decision to say, "Okay, I really wanna focus on 200s."

That was kind of where my decision to focus on ultras in general over more standard Olympic distance stuff as my priority training focus. So it is funny to hear that, the topic of, uh, the North Face Endurance series comes up as, uh, driving people into the sport. Yeah. It was my-- I think, I'm doing the math when you said that.

I think my first three ultras were at the North Face Endurance Challenge. I think I did DC, DC, California, and then, uh, and then my first 100 at Rocky Raccoon. So it was, uh, yeah, definitely a, a, a gateway drug for me, too. Yeah. Awesome. Uh, there is a, there's an interesting element, I think, to, to all of this with respect to the 200-plus milers, which I think are, like, pretty easily fall within the multi-day category of ultramarathon that I've been thinking about lately, is just with the growth we've seen.

And I think Cocodona is one that really puts a big Explanation point on this, just because there's a lot of data points that are just objectively clear, where you see the livestream participation. This year specifically with Rachel Andrich and literally going mainstream. She transcended not ultrarunning, not running, but straight into s- mainstream sports, mainstream popular culture, has been on, like, all these big platforms that normally don't talk about ultrarunning at all.

And I find that really interesting because one of the other things that I did that kind of got me actually initially more interested in the multi-day side of things is, uh, I just got connected with people through the timed event side of the sport who are, like, historians essentially of the sport. Davy Crockett was maybe one of the original guys that-- He's just done so many deep dives into the history of ultramarathon running.

Yeah, I think he's got over 12 books now, and he has a podcast. I don't think he has recorded it anymore. He sort of treated it as "I'm gonna create this library or catalog of a history, and then when I get to the end, I get to the end, and then it's just this resource that sits there." And that got me looking more into the history of the sport, how old it actually is, and where the priority events stood before this more recent growth in the sport that we've seen the last decade or so.

And when you look into that, you see, the six-day was this massive sports event. It w- it rivaled the, the big-- It was one of the bigger sporting events that are, that, that, that was around in the you know, the late 1800s, early 1900s. And it got me thinking too, it's well, there's something I had to drive to get to the six-day being the one that stood out to people.

And what were the uniquenesses that did that that could get repeated with this most recent growth? And I think we maybe are starting to see that now, where whatever draw there is to the, the length of the adventure is powerful enough that we could see a scenario, in my opinion, where, say, 10 years from now, 15 years from now, we're not looking at the 100 mile or roughly 100 miles as this premier aspect of the sport, but maybe we're looking at some sort of a multi-day as that big kind of Super Bowl-type event where everyone kind of aspires to get to that versus maybe the Western States of the world or the UTMBs of the world.

Yeah, I mean, I could totally see that. And I mean, wouldn't that-- That would just be so amazing for someone who's been a fan before. You know, it goes that way, to that style of mainstream. I'll say this was my first year since 2021 being at Cocodona without running it, and I was super involved and super busy throughout the whole week.

But just not running it made it such a spectator sport. The-- And the duration felt like it was part of a character in, in the sport, where it's like this thing started on Sunday at check-in, and, you know, the story kept going until Saturday morning. And, and you were able to kinda tune out and do your thing and then check in and, and come back to it.

So it was just like the, the length of it is part of the c- the character of the race, of the event, where you get to follow along for such a long period of time that it fits into whatever life you have that week versus, uh, a 100-miler, where it's a, you know, a 24 to 36-hour period that you have to kinda focus in on.

Uh, I think that's a big part of it. And, being out there and not running it this year really highlighted how long-form this content is, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. D- do you think that the duration component or variable is something that offers enough uncertainty that that's what people are craving with ultramarathon that drives that popularity?

Because the way-- I can't help but notice that it seems like the more refined the 100-mile gets, the faster these 200-plus milers grow in popularity. And part of me thinks I could be totally wrong about this, but part of me thinks maybe the heart of ultrarunning is in this idea that we want some level of uncertainty that you can't just formulate as cleanly.

And as soon as you can kind of treat it a little bit more like a NASCAR race, we start seeing people's interests go somewhere else where there isn't that level of control or that level of certainty with certain aspects. And I'm really interested in that. I'm really interested in just the number of variables that these multi-days offer that we just don't have as clear of an answer for, where you have that element of risk, that element of uncertainty, where everyone out there feels like they're kind of trying to solve this puzzle that isn't kind of blueprinted in a way that's as formulaic as maybe we're getting with some of the single-day ultras.

Yeah. No, I think you're, I think you're spot on there. I think I mean, you'd probably agree that, you know, if you show up to the start line of a 5K, I mean, the most fit person's going to win, or at least that's 99% of the battle, right? And I think for a long time, 100s were much, much lower than that, where the most fit person was not necessarily going to win.

But I think we've gotten to a place where it usually is the most fit person, and I mean, there are still variables and, and puzzle pieces there. Uh, fitness is not 100% or, or 99% like the 5K, but I think it's a lot closer than it ever has been. And I think when you step up to the multi-night 200-plus, it's me, I don't know what I'd say that fitness is, maybe 30%, 45%.

It's something low where there's still so many other things. I mean, you look at-- I think one of the most impressive things about Rachel Entricken's three-year span here is she finished Cocodona-- she won Cocodona in 2023, uh, or 2024. Uh, and, you know, she said, "I need to eat better, I need to fuel better, and I need to finish happier."

"I, I-- my, my attitude wasn't, wasn't right." And now she's fixed those things. She's running with joy and curiosity and fueling really well, and look at what's happened in the past three years. She's still winning the race, but it's, it's by, you know, she's winning it outright, 12, 13 hours faster.

So I think fitness is so far from the majority factor in these 200-plus mile races, wherein 100, I think it is well over the 50% mark at this point, if not approaching 100. And, uh, I think that is really curious for people, where they look at a start list where there's 20, 30, 40 contenders, and they're looking at all these dark horses and thinking, "These people have a chance."

Yeah, I think you're spot on there. I, I think if I had to pinpoint an interesting variable to people, it is we want an event that is unique from standard endurance sports that's been around and more popular for a longer period of time in the modern era. And when the variable of running efficiency is still this overreaching high bar, we don't differentiate ourselves enough from the marathon runners of the world or the Olympic distance runners of the world.

So we want to step up into a category of focus where there is this very distinguished difference, where the skill sets that are required to win an event that is considered a premier ultra are different enough from, say, the marathon, that you wouldn't have a scenario where the top marathoners in the world could just step in and wreck shop.

Yeah. No, absolutely. And it's, it's-- it, it-- and it all goes back to storytelling. There is a cooler-- It's a, it's a more mysterious story happening, unfolding in front of us. Uh, whereas, you know, even something like Western States, yes, it's going to be a race, yes, it's going to be super entertaining, but, you know, I, I just-- I, I think there's going to be a lot less surprises happening in a race like that.

Mm-hmm. I'd be curious what your thoughts are about this, 'cause another thing I've been kind of wondering about is just the accessibility side of the sport. And the part of accessibility that has caught my interest the most is just the amount of support you can bring into an event to help you get from start to finish quicker.

And I think one thing that I-- we haven't seen get super popular yet that I could see becoming popular would be events that- Provide an environment where support is not the limiter. So, something where they limit the amount of crew support or just support in general to the degree where now if somebody shows up without crew support, uh, without pacing support, they're on an even playing field with everybody, and you can't kind of, outplan, outstrategize, outspend the competition, so to speak.

I do wonder if th- if we'll start seeing events pop up that kind of focus on that at some point. But right now, I think the multi-days probably still offer enough of that, where people haven't necessarily got to the point where they're kind of fed up with, uh, feeling like they're on a different playing field than the rest of the people out there.

Yeah. I mean, you see the, the top of the field in, in, you know, say, a Cocodona they're-- they have, you know, NASCAR pit crews, and it is obviously a huge benefit to have a, a dialed-in crew. I've done these things, you know, just using the support of the race versus having a crew and pacers, and it is, it's significantly harder to take care of yourself.

And there's, there's more in these events that you don't even think. The-- there's so many little things that when you get to an aid station and you don't have a crew, and all of a sudden you have to do everything yourself it is-- uh, it's going to take more time. So, I think, you know, you see there's some hundreds out there that have solo divisions and then crew divisions, and I think that could be something that people would entertain in the future.

Certainly, as these things get more popular and lotteries form, you have permits come into play, and maybe if you limit crews or, or have a different division, that's a solution for that, where you can get more people into the race. But I definitely think it's, uh I mean, if you're looking to compete at these events, having a crew that understands them, uh, having pacers that are, you know, that know the-- 'Cause, I mean, everyone gets lost during 200-plus mile races.

It's pretty much par for the course that you're gonna make a wrong turn at some point. I've run the same course four times, and I still get lost every year. Uh, so having a dial crew can save you a lot of time, keep you fresher, keep you moving better. I think it's a, it's, it's an advantage by far to, uh, to doing these things solo and unsupported.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see where that all goes in the future as more people enter the sport, and essentially more resources come in to the degree where we can have very specialized type events that just wouldn't get off the ground in the past because of interest, where now it seems like we almost have a supply and demand imbalance with respect to the number of people who wanna do these things versus the offerings that are available.

Yeah. And you see that with the wait lists and lotteries and whatnot. Yeah, and then you-- I mean, it's just, it's awesome to see the-- I mean, it's so-- I-- The, the logistics of getting one of these off the ground I can't even imagine. If you were to say, "I wanna put on a 200-plus mile race," and you map out the course and get the permits and figure out how to actually bring one of these things to life.

Uh, and you see, first-time race directors have a hard time doing that, whereas someone who is established you know, like Tim and the Trail Fest they're able to, you know, bring Mammoth to life in a relatively short period of time. I know it, you know, it was a vision for a long time, and then it actually came to life, and for a first-year event, was incredibly dialed.

Uh, so I think w- that, the fact that we're seeing more of these races pop up and being successful and selling out is, uh, I mean, it's just a sign of things to come. People want to race this distance. They want to experience the challenge of getting to the finish line 200-plus miles later. Hmm. Yeah.

And I, I think you're right though. I think it is a big effort that is something that as a growing sport, we have to just kind of learn and, and make a few mistakes along the way too. I think-- I just recently saw Mike McKnight's been on this podcast a few times, and he's obviously a feature amongst the 200 multi-day type stuff, and he was planning on launching a 200-miler, and they had to postpone it, I think, a year because of what you just said.

There is a lot of logistics and a lot of things that we're still trying to work out, and unless you have a ton of support behind you, you're probably going to have to kind of go through some growing pains. And I think, uh, it, it, what-- I'm su- Mi-Mike, I'm sure, is doing the best he can to make it successful, and that's part of the reason why he delayed it a year, 'cause he wants to make sure it is and doesn't have a, a, a really bad first-year experience for the people who are willing to trust his, uh, his, his process and things like that.

But I think it does highlight just the, the, the, the hurdles that are gonna be in place for people to go through that permitting process. At the end of the day, we are looking at an event that takes up a lot of landscape and therefore has a lot more moving parts that can be unpredictable, even up to the week before the race itself.

Yeah, no, we've had, we've had Mike on as well, and uh, I saw the, uh, email that he sent to the people when, you know-- It, it sounds like he did an amazing job of, like- Having consolation and refunds and, and Mm-hmm ... explaining the reasoning behind what, why he wouldn't have it this year, and it's just, it's just so much.

I mean, uh, bringing one of these to life from scratch, especially not being an established race director is, i- it's-- I can't imagine doing it. So ho- hopefully he can bring it to, to life next year, 'cause it sounds like an awesome race. Uh, old Ephraim, uh, I was looking at the course. He was trying to get me to come run it this year, and I, maybe I would've if it had gone off, so we'll see.

Maybe next year. Yeah, I, I mean, I, I love Mike's approach to things, 'cause I think he's someone who's willing to take risks. Yeah. And then he's also willing to s- look at things practically, though, in hindsight, and say, "Hey, I need to do this differently, and I need to make some changes here." And he's not afraid to, uh, to, to address those versus trying to jam a round peg through a square hole, so to speak.

And I think him being public with those things is such an important piece to this puzzle for us to grow. 'Cause whenever we have a topic or a thing that needs refinement that we're still trying to really find the right approach to, the more public it is, the more eyeballs are on it. The more eyeballs that are on it, the more potential solutions get presented to you that you'd otherwise maybe not get because you're keeping it behind closed doors.

And I, I really value Mike's approach about that, 'cause I'm sure he's getting all sorts of, uh, feedback and all sorts of information that he's gonna be able to use to have what'll end up being a really good event down the road when it finally all comes into fruition. Yeah, absolutely. And when-- And just from what I've seen publicly, like, when you handle it like he has, you know, you get people to understand.

Like, when you, when you- Right ... tell it to people straight and you explain why things are happening, people tend to understand versus keeping things kinda shrouded. Yeah. They wanna help versus argue. Yeah, ab- And that's a key component to success. Yeah, yeah. Huge shift. It makes it a lot easier on yourself when, when you have that.

Yeah, absolutely. So I do wanna hop into some of the variables that you mentioned earlier when we started too, uh, because you've talked to some people that I think have probably given you some pointers or at least some good first point of practice advice that maybe I haven't seen yet but have been thinking about out loud on some podcasts.

And one in particular that has been really interesting to me is the sleep side of things. So I've had sort of an evolving perspective of this, where originally, when the ultras, the multi-day stuff first started kind of popping up and I started thinking about it, I looked at well, what does the research actually say with this?

And at the time, there was like-- I think there were some decent multi-day cycling studies that were done that suggested sleeping a little bit earlier than maybe you feel is right was probably gonna yield a better result in the long term. And I was thinking about that, and I was like, "Well, how comparable is a multi-day cycling race to a mul- multi-day running event?"

And one variable that was different is the consequence of sleep deprivation and the accidents that can happen when you're on a bike moving faster versus, you know, hiking or running slowly across a trail are probably different, and therefore, they may have different pinch points in terms of necessity and when they start becoming pro-promote performance or not.

So I'd just be really cur-- Well, I sh- I should further clarify, and then talking to people like Rachel Entrickin, Killian Korth, and Mike McKnight It sort of seems like the people that are winning these races right now are trending more towards how do we reduce the amount of sleep to the absolute minimum versus finding a number of guaranteed sleeping hours or minutes that just need to be done in order to find peak performance.

And that sort of shifted my perspective maybe a little bit with, with respect to maybe even planning sleep at all versus looking at it as something you're probably gonna leverage at least to a small degree. But you're less likely to formalize it and say "I'm gonna sleep right here at this time or this aid station."

I'd be curious, if you talk with the sleep researchers and other people in the sport, do you have a general consensus that you say, "This is probably the best starting point to consider, and then from here maybe you can individualize if you have specifics that stand out versus the norm"? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's so, it's so interesting.

It's one of my favorite topics, but the, on the, what makes it challenging is that there's no, there's not really many answers, so it's a hard topic to truly dive into. The sleep scientists that we've had on, a lot of them cite military studies because most people don't willingly put themselves through extreme sleep deprivation for, for the sake of science.

So they use a lot of military studies because they do that in the military in various countries too, to study decision-making skills and reaction time and what actually happens to your body when you are willingly forcing it to stay awake. So my advice to, to athletes that I coach and, and kind of what I've hypothesized from the sleep specialists we've had on, plus my own experience in these races is you need to have a plan or at least have someone else who has a plan for you.

'Cause in the race, your decision-making skills are, like, scientifically speaking, going to diminish to a point where they're not really reliable anymore. Come night two, you're going to not make the best decisions for yourself. You're not gonna stick to what pre-race Kevin wanted to do. So having a plan, and the plan can be very loose, but you need to have some sort of plan, uh, or pass that plan off to a crew where "Hey, you're in charge of my sleep.

Someone who has been sleeping and, and is making smart decisions needs to tell me when, where, and how much to sleep based on the goals I wanna achieve here at this race." Uh, my s- personal sleep strategy has evolved a lot over the years And I actually did a personal experiment on myself last year at Mammoth, uh, where I went into the race telling myself no sleep.

I was gonna, I was gonna finish the race without sleep. I typically struggle to sleep. I get sort of anxious and, and just kind of antsy, and I don't like laying down and stopping, which forces me to n- I mean, that creates a situation where I actually can't fall asleep even though I've been awake for three days.

So even though I'm exhausted and all I wanna do is sleep, I lay down, nothing happens. So at Mammoth, I went in and said, "Okay, no sleep." So I finished Mammoth in fif- a little over 58 hours without sleep, and it was an interesting experiment. I don't know if I will do it again. Uh, the last 10 hours of the race got very strange.

It was the longest I'd ever been awake. Uh, if you factor in the pre-race hours, it was probably somewhere in the 62-hour range, and that was, it was, it was pretty wild. So I think for planning for sleep, you need to have a loose plan of about how much sleep you wanna get and look for markers of, like, when you need sleep.

So set up what's happening that might mean I need sleep? Am I-- Have I stopped eating? Have I stopped drinking? Am I tripping? Am I-- Was I hiking 18-minute miles, now it's 22? Have these check-ins with yourself, and it should almost be like an actual list where you go through and, and check these things.

And if you're no longer... It's almost like a sobriety test. If you're no longer checking these boxes you probably need to sleep. That's really interesting. I like that. I like, like scaffolding formulas that are-- they're manipulatable enough where you can respond to what's actually happening when you're out in the field or at the event, but they're structured enough where when you do get to these clear signs, you're like, "Okay, I get that maybe this isn't perfect, a, a perfect case scenario if I could draw up this happening exactly the way I want it from start to finish before the thing begins.

But now that we're in this specific scenario, this is the best step going forward to get me to the finish line quicker." And I think that is the big back and forth you're having with yourself, is essentially just not making perfect the enemy of good in the sense that there's gonna be things that you can't predict, and you're gonna have to respond to them with the best case scenario of maybe something that isn't on paper perfection when you're planning things out in the very beginning.

Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's, it's much less, "Okay, I'm gonna sleep 90 minutes at Whiskey Row," and it's much more a series of if this, then that formulas that you need, you need to run through, your crew needs to run through pretty much constantly throughout the race, and you-- it, it needs to be an ongoing kind of execution versus a, a set in stone plan.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, one thing I wanted to ask you about, and I can appreciate you probably don't have a clear black and white answer to this, but the other interesting thing I find about these variables that are more unique to ultramarathon, and then therefore more unique even more so to multi-day, is with these variables, how much of them are trainable versus some people just have relative, maybe biological strengths versus weaknesses here that are gonna help us determine who ends up kinda being the, the perfect kinda prototype version of a multi-day ultramarathon runner?

And with sleep, I think about this through the lens of, are there people who are just naturally better at sleep deprivation and performing under that sort of pressure versus others that could yield an advantage that is just gonna be, "Hey, they've got this strength that I don't have, and I have to find a way to overcome it if I wanna try to beat them, and that's just gonna result in a different strategy for me versus them"?

Or is this something where with the right other inputs is very trainable, and we can expect the average person's ability to get to a certain point with the right strategy? Do you have any thoughts on just kind of the natural strength and weakness for sleep deprivation versus the right approach being applied on a more broad scale?

I think it's a little bit of a blend. I'd say it, it probably trends more towards the, you know, genetic and some people are better suited to it. I don't think I don't think everyone can stay up for a 58-hour race like I have without sleeping, but I think there's some people who can sleep a lot better than I do.

They'd be able to lay down 40 hours in and get 20 minutes, where I struggle to do that. I can't fall asleep. On the trainable side, I think in training for these things with the volume that you're doing, especially if you're trying to be competitive, whether that's with the field or with yourself, I think there's more detriment than benefit from training sleep deprivation.

I think it's more sleep habits and sleep health that you can focus on, where you can try to simulate a comfortable situation. You can use a sleep mask. You can use a certain smell that you go to sleep with every night. You can use a s- a sound. You can bring things that are going to make you comfortable and help you sleep.

But I think there's just some people who are better at operating on, on several nights without sleep versus others. There's some people who sleep better in the dirt and can fall asleep and actually, you know, turn things off quicker than others, and I think those things are really hard to train. I think there's a lot of benefit in not necessarily training those things, but knowing where you fall within that space and, and just becoming comfortable with that, accepting it, and, and using the tools that you have.

Uh, so, like, when I run one of these, I learn a lot about, okay, that's how I do that, and then I try to plan around how I function Mm-hmm. Yeah. I find this topic really interesting, 'cause part of it just kind of came organically to my attention when I was talking to people that have done multi-day stuff.

And there seemed to be some trend line at first, where the people who were very successful were people who I think were just they had these sort of schedules where they found themselves in a situation where some days or some nights they would have very little sleep, and they would seem to get through all their obligations, and then maybe they'd catch up to some degree later.

But they were very-- They could operate under less certainty with respect to sleep. And then I looked at that compared to myself, where I consider myself somebody where I can't deviate too far from my normal sleeping habits before I start seeing performance dip in a variety of different areas in life.

So I always thought of myself as okay, well, maybe I have an inherent weakness that would be very exposed at, say, a multi-day ultra that wouldn't get exposed at running a real flat, fast 100-miler where I don't necessarily need to lose any sleep outside of just, you know, the lack of sleep you get from early race starts, and then there-- and all the pain and suffering that you're tolerating afterwards, and that might impact your next night's sleep.

But then I was talking to Mark Dowdle about the backyard ultra format, and I shared that, that example with him, and he's "No, I'm way more like you, where in my normal day-to-day life, I function way better and am way more predictable when I'm getting my seven to eight hours of sleep per night.

And if I start deviating from that for too long, I really start to notice problems occurring." And he seems to have been able to, to, to really navigate that within the backyard format to a degree where it doesn't become a pinch point for him necessarily. So that kind of opened me up a little bit to okay, well, maybe there is a path forward for me and I just need to find it, and it might just be different than, say someone who can be a night owl one day and then an early bird the next, and kind of navigate this uncertain sleep cycle on a daily-- on a more frequent basis.

I, I mean, I would say I'm much, much like you and Mark, where I get eight-plus hours every night, and if I don't, it throws my whole day off. And I sleep a lot. I really value sleep. But then when I get into these races, I tend to be able to go potentially the whole race without sleep. So I think until you get in there and sort of see how you function and, and most importantly, how you move, like, when you have no sleep, like if you're still-- You may feel awful and everything else is falling off the rails, but if you're still moving really well maybe you have that.

So you won't know until you're, like, on night two or approaching sunrise number two and, and, uh, and seeing how you're moving. So you're telling me I gotta stop being a baby and just sign up for a multi-day? Yeah, you can't-- I mean, you-- It sou-sounds like you're using "Zach needs his sleep" as an excuse. Yeah, I, I definitely am.

Uh, but you and Mark are making that harder for me to keep saying, so I think at some point I do just need to jump in and see what happens, for better or worse. Well, I can't wait to see it. Yeah. It, it, it's such an interesting thing. I mean, I think-- I was out at Cocodona a couple years ago as a coach.

I had, I, I think I had... I mean, Cocodona's more than just the 250, and I ha- had five clients throughout the different events there. So I got a really good just perspective of the ins and outs of everything in real life, going from start to finish, kinda following different people and their events, and kinda seeing, and actually tolerating a fair amount of sleep deprivation as a result of that in and of itself, even though I wasn't running the course or anything like that.

And it was one of those experiences that I found was like, "Okay, this is-- there's some really cool things about this event that you kinda just need to be there and see happen, and talk to people at the aid stations to see what they're dealing with and what questions they're trying to answer." And it's just such a cool thing.

I do encourage people whether you're interested in doing a multi-day or not. Uh, certainly, if you're coaching people, it's great to get out to these events and just see them firsthand through the spectator lens if you can, through the crew lens if you can, pacer lens if you can, and, and just kinda see all the stuff that's going on out there, 'cause it is really eye-opening.

Uh, yeah, absolutely. It's-- I had, uh, I had eight athletes running this year, and I, I'd like to think I was able to impact each one of their races in the race, just, I mean, going back to how many kinds of logistics and, and factors there are in these races. You know, if you're out there as a coach, you get to see your athletes throughout the course.

You get to actually-- what, what other ultra do you actually get to unless you're pacing them, do you get to check in with all your athletes and actually talk to them and, and help them through the race in real time? Which is one of my favorite things about the, you know, again, the length of these races, is you really can be out there and experience them and immerse yourself in them.

So, but in any capacity, you're right. This year, I was at a few different aid stations. I volunteered. I-- You know, it was just so- such a rewarding experience to be out there for the whole week at these r- at the race and, and see these people pushing through. You know, you, you see them start in Black Canyon City at Cocodona, and then you, you see them cross the line at Flagstaff, and you-- especially knowing how much has happened to them in that time period, and, and just being able to witness that is, it, yeah, it leaves a mark Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Uh, another variable that I wanted to talk to you about that I would say is on par, maybe at this point a little bit ahead of the sleep deprivation side of things, is a concept that's not unique to the multi-days. I think it's something that gets more important in most of the ultramarathon distances, even the single day ones, is this concept of durability, where you have this, this scenario where just because you're more fit doesn't mean your legs are gonna be able to express that fitness late into the race at a high enough degree where you can essentially maintain pace.

And I think that sort of a question or that sort of variable just becomes more and more pronounced as you get into these longer races, where now that running efficiency variable bar to clear starts going lower and lower and lower, where getting better at that at the expense of something like durability isn't necessarily gonna yield your best result, whether you're the front, middle, or back of the pack.

And part of me is just okay, well, if this is that important of a variable, how do we approach it with respect to preparing and then performing on, on event day? So I'd be curious with the podcast episodes that you've done and any experts you've talked to, are there strategies that are standing out to you with respect to being better at that aspect of just being strong later in the race itself and not feeling like your legs are literally falling apart on you despite your cardiovascular system being in a really good spot going in?

I mean, the, in my inexpert opinion is so much of, of success and, and performance at this distance is, is, uh, executing in spite of all that. Your, your, your legs are going to feel like they're falling apart and not meeting your cardiovascular fitness at mile 190. That's just-- There's, there's-- I don't think there's anyone out there who feels fresh and springy at that.

Maybe Arlen Glick the year that he-- It seemed, seemed like he got some sleep and, and was pretty springy. But talking to Cody Poskin, who had an incredible, uh, resurgence this year where he, he, I think he took almost 10 hours off his time, finished second, uh, second male. He basically was like, "I got up on that plateau," and sleep deprivation is a factor here too.

It becomes so hard to convince yourself to do the thing that you know you want to do, and it's really hard to truly appreciate how difficult it is until you're in that situation. 'Cause it's "Oh, you really want this thing, just do it," but it's so difficult to, to run and to push yourself when you are deep in this pain cave.

So, you know, Cody was like, "I'm just gonna run more," and it's, that's it, sometimes it's that simple. And Cody did run more. He ran the plateau versus primarily hiking it last year, and looked at how much faster he was. So I think I, I, you know, talking to Cody his body felt the same. It had the same limitations, the same desire to not run, the same aches and pains, but he executed nonetheless.

So I think a lot of it is figuring out the art of doing it anyway when everything feels like it's falling apart. Of course, there's injury and there's ph- you know, physiological reasons where you might not be able to. And those things I think you can mitigate in training. I think, you know, talking to physical therapists, it's, it's the obvious answers like strength training and targeted work there, but it's also the, the, the way I think the training varies is the duration of some of these blocks.

You think of training for 100 Miler as, you know, maybe a 16-week block on top of your base. But for something multi-night, it's more of a lifestyle where you're doing these long blocks. And sure, you do ebb and flow, and you have recovery cycles. But how many weeks can I stack together of whatever high volume is for me with feeling good and feeling like it's still productive?

And if you can do that for, you know, eight-week blocks, then you're going to be successful. You're, it's going to help. So everyone's gonna be different there, what, what their body can hold. But I think longer blocks, more consistency in training, high volume over time, uh, is gonna make you more durable later in these races.

But a lot of tr- where the magic truly happens is just doing it when you don't want to. Doing it when everything in your body is screaming that you can't. I mean, I've, I've had big PRs in 200s too where same, similar to the Cody example where I just ran more at the end. I was like, "You have. This feels horrible.

It feels like it always does, but you're going to run more, and you have to run more and, and- Spoiler alert, you get there a lot faster. Yeah. It's one of those things where it's, it would be nice if we could pinpoint one specific variable like, all right, it's about this, this durability protocol or this mental fortitude or mental resiliency strength or protocol to, to really get you through.

But in reality, it's some combination of both of those things- Yeah … that gets you through a spot like that. And I just find it really interesting to get into the specifics of it because, like, when I had Killian Court on after, uh, after Cocodona, it was, like, I guess maybe unfortunate or fortunate, depending on how you look at it.

I talked to him before he got his MRI result back that showed that he had a torn ligament in his upper ankle and therefore had essentially injured himself in an effort to perform at Cocodona, and then therefore took, uh, some future races off the table. And the topic we were talking about with respect to that was sort of like, is there something that Killian was doing that is unique in his training that prepared his body to be able to absorb an assault like that?

When I think of tearing anything in my lower leg, I'm probably not finishing the race, whereas Killian did. So you can look at that as a strength, 'cause it got him the men's win, the men's course record, second overall at Cocodona. But you could also-- I wasn't thinking about it through this lens, but he shared this with me, which was, I don't know that I necessarily wanna have that strength all the time, because if it results in me doing an event and doing quite well, but then not being able to do the next two events on my calendar, I'm not sure that's a long-term sustainable approach to have a career in this sport.

So it's sort of almost one of those double-edged swords, I wanna be able to have this durability to get me through in the best possible way, and maybe that means having a physique that can tolerate an insult and still move well. But where is that kind of crossover point where it is actually time to pull the rip cord and say, "I need to stop now before I do long-term damage"?

And I mean, that, that just tells me we're getting to a spot in the sport where we're starting to find these really unique pinch points that, uh, that, that kind of show that we're, we're progressing in a way of understanding things a little bit better, but still have questions to answer. Yeah, uh, absolutely.

It's, it's I, I imagine you know, if I were Killian in that situation and I, I would be really grateful that I had that tool and that strength, but I would wanna learn, and I'm sure he's learned a ton, like, how, how do I best wield this? Like, when, when do I deploy this? It's you know, you put the, you put the ring on in Lord of the Rings, and yeah, you get invisible, but a lot of bad things happen, too, right?

It's, there's consequences to that power. So, that's, that's where my head would go is "Hey, this is really cool. I'm grateful that I have this strength and this tool, but how, how is it best going to suit me?" Uh, and kinda discovering you have it in real time, it's like you, you don't know, have those answers yet, right?

Yeah. And I mean, things may have just lined up perfectly for him to have that, too, because he also had the incentive unique to him where Cocodona has been this challenge where he's felt like it's been met with a lot of failure, a lot of learning, and a lot of, "All right, I think I now have a strategy in place that is gonna allow me to show what I'm really capable on this course."

And I can't help but think when it got very difficult for him, some of those incentives were likely more powerful than they would, than the norm for even him to be able to push through some of that because of that exact circumstance, where maybe at a race where he's already done well at, had he had that same, been confronted with that same problem, he would've pulled the rip cord.

Yeah. Yeah, I can, I can see that. Just the compounding frustration and desire to, to kinda put those demons, you know, back in the cage. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Are you seeing a lot of the people who are doing these multi-days having a lot more of a formalized strength work protocol versus what we're seeing in normal running?

I think strength work as a whole has been something that's gotten more pronounced as a valuable tool or non-negotiable for runners in general, but I see this becoming like even more of a thing where when I look at just some of the hours that Killian and Mike have shared that they're putting in the gym doing-- Mark Dowdle's another good example of this, that they're putting in the gym, and I'm looking at it like, you know, that's two, three, and sometimes four X-ing the number of hours I spend in the gym working on strength work.

And I'm wondering if anything is showing up from just you talking to people or experts you've had on the podcast that would suggest, yeah, there's like a framework here that you should be very focused on if your goal is to stay in one piece at 200 miles versus 90 miles. Yeah, no, I think-- I mean, if I'm being honest, I think it's still a bit of the Wild West and, and kinda emulating that, like what we see in 100-milers or other ultras where it's people know they should be, and people know more or less the, the, you know, wh- where they should be kinda deploying that.

And whether they do or not is, is, you know, unique to the individual, and there's still a lot of people who, who wish they were doing more or, or kinda, you know, letting strength training fall to the wayside. It's, it's hard 'cause most people training for these 200-plus mile races are-- they're parents, they have full-time jobs, they have partners, they have, you know, they have all these other things in their life, and the, the volume of run training that these things demand or, or should demand are-- it's a lot.

I mean, it's, you know, if you're doing-- on the low end of training, if you're doing eight, 10, 12-hour weeks of just running you know, wh- where does the strength training come in? So it-- I, I think people are still struggling like they are with other aspects of ultra to kind of fit it all in and find out the kind of the cocktail that will get them to the finish line in, in relatively one piece.

But there's still a lot of uncertainty as to whether strength training should eat into my run training, and, like, where, where is that balance? I think it's what we see in other ultras. Yeah. And I, I would say I would say generally my, my approach to most things is the more specific the exercise or the input is to what you're actually gonna be doing on race day is gonna yield the most direct adaptation, and then therefore is probably best applied closer to the event itself.

And if I use that philosophy but project it onto a multi-day, it kind of makes me think about what you were mentioning earlier with respect to kind of the training block setup, where for, say, like 100-miler, where that deviates for me from, say, like a marathon, is my training load doesn't necessarily get higher when I'm peaking for 100-miler.

It might to a small degree, but not as much as maybe people would think by looking at just the raw numbers on a chart. But what ends up happening is I start shifting training load from short intervals and long intervals that are higher on the aerobic intensity spectrum to lower intensity volume, which sometimes looks bigger, especially the ultra-marathoner might-- they see 110-mile training week versus 150, and they automatically think the 150 is a higher training load, whereas in reality they may be similar training load, but one's just leveraging low intensity volume, the other's leveraging some intervals and volume in combination.

Then the next stage is always like, how do you take that... W-w-the way I look at it anyways, how do I take a similar training load but then consolidate it into a shorter timeframe so that I am improving that durability component later in the race? So it's not that over the span of four weeks my training load increased drastically, it's that I have these points within those four weeks where more of it is consolidated, which then results in a little bit more rest on the other days.

And what you said made me think with these 200-plus milers or multi-day things, it may be that same thing, but that whole consolidation rest thing just looks different, where maybe that is like a five, six, seven-day training block where you're out doing a really huge training load, and then you're having a really easy week, and then you're just interspersing a consolidated training load, but in a longer period of time compared to what you'd maybe do for a single day.

Yeah, I think that's, I think that's pretty accurate. And, you know, I think people who are training for these are-- they should be doing speed work. They are doing speed work. But in general, the training can be a lot less intense, and therefore, you can absorb more of it and, and do more of it over a longer period of time.

'Cause I, I, I mean, I, I think a lot of people are, you know, we talk about time on foot with training for ultras and how, oh, you gotta practice your hiking. But it really is even more important for the 200-plus mile distance, especially if you're living in a place that doesn't have, you know, big mountains and you're, you're running more runnable trails all the time.

If you do all of your training, run training, and then you show up to a 200-plus mile race, even if you're looking to be competitive you're going to be hiking a lot. And it is such a different stimulus on the body. Your, your whole lower leg activation, the way your ankle flexes the, the places that f- friction exists on your feet from hiking versus running from a blister perspective.

So much is different from those modalities that if you're not practicing your hiking and train-- And, and, and I mean seriously implementing it into your training, it's going to be a shock to your system when all of a sudden you've done 90% running and training, and now you're doing 50% hiking in the race.

Uh, so that's something that I think is a big factor with these training blocks too, is a lot of it can be hiking. Life stress is stress for everyone. But when you're training for a multi-night race, it really counts more, I think. I think it holds more points than it does for training for shorter races.

You know, your dog walks, your job that has you on your feet all day. These things are-- they're part of your life, but they are helping you more training for a 200-plus mile race than they might be training for a 50K or even 100-miler. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a perfect transition into the next thing I wanted to ask you about, which is the running versus hiking or walking distribution and how that implies or how that impacts kind of the training side of things, where one thing I talk about with a lot of my coaching clients, and I've talked about this on the podcast as just a topic of interest within the ultrarunning world, is just how do you kind of figure that out?

Because we're, you know, we're, we're, we're reaching a wide range of people from somebody who maybe is running the majority or all of this race versus somebody who is maybe hiking a higher percentage of it. So, what is different between those two and then everything in between? And I've, I've always tried to find a way to maybe describe this to people in a way that's, that they can kind of take a formula and say, "All right, this is how I should look at it."

And as imperfect as it is, I do think the starting point is often let's imagine a scenario where you reach your goal from a, "I finish in this amount of time for this distance," or, "I cover this distance in this amount of time." And then realistically look at what that probably entails from a percentage standpoint of running and hiking, and then from there come up with a rough estimate of how much running and about how much hiking are you actually gonna be doing at this event.

'Cause that could maybe clue us into, in training, what sort of work or what sort of time do we spend and invest in those two different skill sets. Because if I spend all my time working on the running component, but that's only 50% of the day, and I stood to gain by improving my hiking ability by, let's just say, 1 or 2%, maybe improving that hiking by 1 or 2% is gonna get me to the finish line faster than continuing to try to improve something that I'm only doing half the time and I've already sort of maximized my ability to, to exhaust at.

So- It's just a really interesting conversation, I think, when you get to the point where you start differentiating the two versus treating them all as just moving, and therefore if I go out and I move in any capacity, I'm working on all of it. Yeah, I mean, one of my favorite parts of these races is kind of diving into that and figuring out that puzzle and sort of, making pr- predictions and, and mapping out that framework.

And I think running, hiking, and downtime is another big factor. I mean, you're looking at a lot of mid-pack runners in this 200-plus mile space who are spending, you know, 15 to 30 hours not moving at zero miles per hour. It's pretty crazy.

And I've had a really fun time playing with that puzzle. At Mammoth, I was ninth overall, and according to my Strava stalking, I think there was only one person above me who moved zero miles per hour less than I did. So I had less stoppage time than Jimmy, the first place runner who finished 12 hours ahead of me.

Only Rachel Enterkin was not moving for, for, uh, more, uh, less time than me. So I had less than three and a half hours of stoppage time at Mammoth, so I was just kind of flying through the aid stations. Whereas my wife, who ran it, had 14 hours of downtime, and she was still-- she was fifth female. She was, you know, having a competitive time.

But it's the mix between hiking, running, and not moving can, you know, if you can figure out what the blend that works for you, you can PR in these races by massive amounts without really working much harder, without really running much faster. So there's a lot of low-hanging fruit for, for people running these races.

I always say one of my favorite things to coach is a person's second 200, 'cause we have so much data. You know, there's so much that we don't know in their first one, but for a second one, you, you can, you can really take that low-hanging fruit and just basket it all up and, and really attack it well.

So yeah, it's one of my favorite puzzles to dive into. And, you know, there's so many aid stations, and these aid stations at these races are oases. You don't wanna leave. They're, they're amazing. They're themed. They're they, they're catered. They're, you know, they're places that are begging you to kinda spend some time.

Uh, and if you wanna hike more and still move fast, then moving through the aid stations quickly is a way to do that. Mm-hmm. Yeah, this topic has been something that I found really interesting, and I was aware of pretty early in ultra-running, because Ian Sharman was talking about this for-- w- with respect to 100-milers back in the day when he was, you know, finishing top 10 at Western States year after year after year.

And he said, as a coach and as an athlete, one thing he looks to first when he gets that, that first kind of finishing blueprint to look at and dive into and assess, is picking out-- I, I-- If I remember correctly, his initial approach was, like, finding the three slowest miles on that course that they, they did, and looking at, okay, what can we do to improve those?

Because if you have a spot where you're going 30-minute mile versus your normal 12-minute-per-mile pace, if we can just improve that by 50%, we're taking a big chunk back, versus us trying to get you to go from running 12-minute miles to 11-minute miles at a spot where you're already feeling good and likely have a better opportunity of overextending yourself and paying for it later by trying to grab for seconds and small, small, small amounts of time in that spot.

And I always found that really interesting, is, like, where is the spot that's-- Where's the low-hanging fruit, essentially, with respect to your, your race chart and improving upon that, without you actually doing any more additional work or moving any faster? Yeah, and I think the goal is to get to that place where you-- where the only thing left is to, to start running 11s- Run faster, yeah

versus 12s, right? The g- That, that is the goal, but, but to get to that spot, let's cut out all the other stuff first. And that's where I feel like I've gotten myself to now, where now I'm like, "Oh, crap, now I have to run faster." Mm-hmm. And I've I've, I've eliminated the fluff, and now I have to run faster.

So that's where I think these things are just so fun, 'cause it's like you can, you can spend-- these things have a way of- kind of taking over your personality and becoming a big focus of your life, and I think in a good way for most people. It's a fun thing that weighs on the horizon when you get into one of these races, and there's just so much planning and, and predicting you can do for them.

Whereas, you know, when you're doing a shorter race, it's like it is what it is, and it's still exciting and it's fun, but there's only so much you can kind of wax poetic on until race day. But you can actually influence your race by really diving into the nuts and bolts of the 200 pluses. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the more interesting things to me in terms of a motivator to try a multi-day is when I-- If I use myself as an example, with the controlled runnable 100-milers, my five fastest times, or my five best performances by time, if I look at the non-moving time of those top five, it ranges from maybe just beyond 60 seconds to three to maybe four minutes i- at, at the most.

So there's really not a lot of potential improvement there by reducing that with those specific controllable 100-mile-type settings for me. So it is just about, like, how do I find a way to actually be moving faster at that versus a scenario where I go up in distance or duration. Now, all of a sudden, that problem-solving side of the puzzle is probably opened up again, where whatever event I would do first, I'm sure there will be an opportunity to improve on the non-moving side of things versus just the moving side of things.

It's sounding more and more like we're gonna end this episode with you signing up for a 200. Yeah, it's getting to that point. I, I, I think, actually, you know what? I think the biggest question for me with respect to that is what type of format to try first, because I've been in the timed event side of things in a pretty big way over my career too.

So part of me is drawn to is maybe the best spot to try this would be, like, a 48-hour or 72-hour in a more controlled setting, like an Across the Years type of setup versus jumping into something like a multi-day 200-plus miler that we see from-- that are, that are popping up more frequently now. Part of me thinks try to change as little as possible for the first attempt in, which means probably more of a controlled format than a, uh, a wildly varied cut format like Cocodona.

But the other part of me says maybe you want that variance just because it's gonna be so unique and so new, there'll be a motivator there that isn't, uh, or callous-- There, there won't be callouses there that are from, uh, previous experiences on the, the short loop type stuff. Yeah, dive into the deep end.

That's where the, that's where the story is gonna come from. You're gonna get the best- Yeah ... stories from just, just diving in. Do Tour, do Tour de Geants as your first. That would be jumping straight into the fire, for sure. Awesome. One other topic I wanted to ask you about that I don't know if there's a huge divergence here, other than maybe the types of inputs or the totals on a per hour basis, is the fueling strategies that you're seeing with these multi-days.

I, I would say I mean, I come from a world where I invest a lot of time and energy in a low-carb approach. For the last year or so, I've been playing around with a very high carbohydrate approach where I did my first 100-miler last year where I hit 90 to 100 grams of carbohydrate per hour.

And I wanna kinda keep stressing that a little bit and just get into some races that I've done in the past versus new ones, uh, to see-- Just to get an idea for myself, just kind of if I feel one way or the other about that sorta side of things for fueling even the 100-milers. But- When you, along that interest line, when you get up into these 200 multi-day stuff, I think the window's actually probably a little more broad with respect to what the fueling looks like.

Are you seeing any trends that are showing up that you're finding, "Okay, this is probably a better starting point for most people," or at least some considerations that most people should be making for a longer event like this when it comes to fueling? 'Cause I do think, you know, fueling's obviously gonna be a huge component of success when you're out there for that long and blowing through maybe 12 to 16 full meals that you would normally have in on an average timeframe that it takes to finish one of these.

Yeah. Most people catch up on those 12 to 16 missed meals, uh, at the end of these things, which is, which is good, and that's the, that's the really fun part of these things, is when you get to have six meals a day when you're done. Uh, so two things I've noticed is obviously, you know, high, high carb has been all the buzz lately, and, and it, and it works for some, and it works for some situations for s- for sure.

I've seen a lot of people, even on the competitive side, backing off a little bit in the 200, uh, space, and not necessarily going low carb by any means, but more in the 60 to 80 gram range and, and finding that that works better for the intensity that these things are run at. Another thing that ha- I see happen all the time is it's such a long event that the nutrition plan falls apart, and that can be a real differentiator for people who are able to hold off on that thing falling apart for the longest time are the ones who do the best.

So for most people, day one is pretty good. You know, they're hitting that 60 to 80 grams of carbs, and they're, they're managing it, and then as they get into night one, into day two, things kinda fall apart. They start having more meals at the aid stations, which makes the in-between nutrition a little more difficult for them to figure out, so maybe it falls to the wayside and they start just kinda, you know, m- now it's down to 20, 30 grams of carbs per hour in between legs, and then they're kinda cramming and having bigger meal-style food at the aid stations.

And I think the people who are able to fuel in between aid stations later into the race are the ones who are, are being successful at these, at this distance and are feeling better and moving better later in these races. So yeah, day two and beyond is a real challenge, and I think it, it, it all funnels back to sleep, right?

Sleep deprivation makes decision-making hard and, and just makes, you know, you have flavor fatigue, and you just don't wanna eat, and your mouth hurts. You have sores. You might actually have a sore jaw from all the chewing you've been doing. It's like all these things, and yet you still have to eat. So lower overall carb intake than kinda the market is pushing these days is what I'm seeing, and then the successful people are the ones who are able to fuel on day two, three, four and beyond.

Mm-hmm. So consistency, whatever ends up that, that ends up being is probably gonna yield better results than being at the extremes and then the troughs often with a lot of that stuff. I, I, I find it interesting because a couple a- anecdotes actually made this more interesting to me than it-- It was already very interesting to me, but just ones that popped up was that, uh, Camille Herron, who, you know, she's an interesting test case for this from my opinion, 'cause she's sort of done like the full range of ultra from 50K up to six days.

And she had al- she'd always been kind of higher carb, and when she started getting in the multi-day world, she worked with, uh, Trent Stellingworth who does a lot of the nutrition for the Olympic, uh, the Canadian Olympic team. And they actually kinda brought her n-not to a low carbohydrate from my understanding, but they reduced her intra-race carbohydrate consumption because I think she was maybe hitting a pinch point of just doing too much that was unnecessary, and it was causing problems that didn't need to happen, and she found a lot of success with that.

So we had this example of someone sort of going from a more traditional recommendation of high carb to lowering it a bit to find success. And then I was talking to Killian Corth, who-- he has-- he's dabbled a lot with nutrition, including low carb stuff, and he f- he's found that for him, he's finding a lot of success up to I think he averaged close to 90 grams of carbs per hour at Cocodona with some peaks at 120 and then some troughs down in maybe the 60 gram range.

But he also did it with all basically gels, which is kind of i-it's, it's almost to a degree where it's one of those where it's like I don't know if he found like this, uh, this, this, uh, this code for-- this performance code or if he's just such an anomaly that maybe we need to be careful not to try to replicate something that he can get away with that most of us won't be able to.

But I just find like those kinda two different-- like almost coming from two different sides of the carbohydrate question and sort of like switching over to the other side and then finding, uh, finding success kind of just, just showcases maybe, at least from an anecdotal standup- standpoint, the variety of options that there actually probably are and how much individual work needs to go into just finding a way to be able to consume enough that you're not having this massive calorie deficit over the course of these days, but you're also not, you know, triggering issues by forcing things down that just aren't gonna stay down.

Yeah, and I, I think, it, it, I mean, it listening to that and those two examples, I think it comes back to uh, like so many things. You know, whatever shoes you choose to wear, what, what your sleep strategy is. So much of it is gonna be to find out what works for you. Uh, and it might be, like, different things.

The race is long enough where different things might work for you at different times. You might wanna start high carb when intensity is higher, and then you need to back off at certain times and kinda match, uh, you know, what your output is, is p- uh, what you're able to do at that time. One thing that helps me, too, is kinda staying on some sort of rhythm where I have a, you know, I try to have a breakfast, lunch, and dinner style meal, and this is beyond day one.

So day one, I'm more, like, all gels and sports nutrition, and then I try to sort of simulate what a normal day would be like, where I have, you know, a breakfast sandwich in the morning, and then something bigger around lunchtime, and something for dinner, and then a little lighter throughout the night.

Tends to work, and, and I don't know if that's just a mental thing, where you're kind of simulating what you're used to in day-to-day life. But the timing of the fuel can be interesting in these because you're, you know, you're going around the clock for 60, 70, 90, 100 hours, so you need to factor in when you're eating as well.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's, there's almost certainly some interaction between you just eating whatever happens to be and what signal that sends to your brain to sorta say, "Yeah, you can kinda keep going, and I'm not gonna put this lower governor on you"- Yeah ... from a perception standpoint. 'Cause at the end of the day, it's like we are dealing with a certain amount of kind of mental bandwidth, and if you start d- diving too deep into that, you are gonna hit a pinch point where your brain basically says, "Hey, you're gonna go slower," or, "You're gonna stop," and all sorts of weird things you don't want from a performance standpoint.

So it is, to some degree, figuring out just some combination of intake that is gonna keep sending that signal to the brain that resources are available. You can keep moving as best you can. Yeah, and I think it goes back to the people who are doing it consistently throughout the race. Volunteering at a late aid station and seeing people asking "Hey, how much have you eaten since the last aid?"

It's, it's, it can be alarmingly low- Mm-hmm ... especially during the night hours where, where intensity's dropping and, and, you know, they had a big meal at the previous aid station, so they kinda trick themselves into thinking "I, I ate. I checked that box. I'm done." Yeah. And then they, you know, all of a sudden, they're 17 miles later, and they've had 200 calories.

Right, yeah. So it's, uh, it's, it, it's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, such an interesting topic. So just one more thing for us to look forward to maybe getting refined if we see more, more information kinda come out from what people are doing and what's working, and, and, and tuning into your podcast, I guess. So yeah, we're gonna keep having on experts and one-- Some-- My favorite episodes are the ones obviously the storytelling is great, and talking to people who are experiencing these races is, is, is amazing.

That's what our bread and butter is. But when we have on, you know, the, the RDs and the ph- you know, physiotherapists and sleep scientists I'm actively learning the entire time, which is really fun to be part of and to be able to ask questions that I'm not asking for listeners, I'm asking for myself.

I'm super- Right ... curious as to "Hey, here's my pain points in these races. Here's where I'm struggling. What do you think the reason for that is?" And that's-- it's kind of invaluable, especially, like, when we, when we did our sleep episodes, we've had four or five of them. I reached out to any sleep specialist or scientist I could find, and most of them are outside of the US.

I think there was one in the US, but, uh, Australia, UK, Europe, and, and just these people who study extreme sleep deprivation, but not necessarily in the running space. It's fascinating 'cause they're learning, too, that this sport exists, or they know it exists, but they're not, you know, in it.

And then running these hypotheticals by them and, and watching them sort of theorize on what might be happening. Yeah. It, it's, it's really cool. Yeah. Some of my favorite podcast topics that sometimes span multiple episodes are the ones where I feel like I'm taking a continuing education course for coaching, and then I just happen to also be recording it and publishing it to anyone else who wants to dive in and listen.

And like you said, when you get those topics where we don't necessarily have a s- a, a, a very strong consensus and we're kind of learning as we get presented with more information. And hopefully as a sport, we are driving interest in some of these questions that will ultimately get more formal research opportunities because there is an incentive for it to get done versus maybe in the past where it's like, "Okay, this is a cool question, but who's gonna use it and how are we gonna get funded to study it, because no one's gonna use it?"

Right. Yeah, absolutely. So s- sign up for a multi-day so we can get better research funding for multi-days is, is the- Yeah ... the public service announcement for that, I guess. And like we said, I need to do my part in that. Awesome. Kevin, do you have any r- races on the calendar coming up? Uh, I'm doing something different and scary for me.

I'm running Badwater in July. Oh, nice. I have-- After years of saying I wouldn't, I I, I crewed it the past two years and I kinda got curious. So running Badwater, it's, uh, the most anxious I've been about a race in a long time. I feel pretty comfortable getting lost for 200-plus miles, uh, in the mountains, but this one scares me.

Uh, so that's all I got this year, and I might end up at Mammoth again. I'm feeling some displaced Cocodona FOMO, uh, having not run it for the first time in four years. So th- if I don't run a 200 this year, it'd be my first time since 2018 not doing a 200-plus miles. So feel- having a little bit of an identity crisis.

Is there something about Badwater, the variables there, that stand out that scares you the most? Uh, just the heat and chafing and just the b- Like, the course itself doesn't scare me. It's e- It, you know, it's only 135 miles. It's pavement, so I can move efficiently even if I'm not running well.

Uh, so it's more the external factors of yeah, the heat, the chafing, the fueling, the GI distress, that sort of thing are just foreign to me. Yeah. Yeah, a course like that, it's like a mistake has different consequences than a mistake out in a, a better climate controlled-- or not climate controlled, but a more temperate climate environment.

So I can d- totally relate to that. So well, that'll be fun. That'll be a fun experience. I'm sure whatever happens, you'll learn some things that you can leverage into the, the, the 200-plus mile space that will help you find finish lines a little bit quicker, and that's always kind of a fun proposition to have in front of you.

Yeah. No, I'm, I'm super excited, and I have a-- My, my crew is one, one is crew chief Badwater. This will be his fifth time. Two of them have run Badwater and crewed it, so it's an experienced crew, and we're gonna have a, a, a party in the desert. Very cool. Awesome. Yeah. Well, I'll be looking forward to seeing how that goes for you.

But, uh, yeah, I mean, it f- did we, did we miss any topics that you were like, "Hey, we better touch on this"? No. I mean, it was just fun to kind of just chat 200ths and, uh, I mean, just, it's just such a-- I mean, obviously my passion, and it's cool to see others really jumping on and, and getting invested in this distance and this space.

And I think every year that we have a 200 with the coverage like Cocodona, you know, we saw Mammoth had great coverage year one. We just, we sort of level up this distance each year, and it's been awesome to, to be on- Mm-hmm ... for the ride. You know, a-asking you that question made me think of one that I did not ask you that I should ask you if you got a couple minutes.

Yeah. Caffeine. So I'm really curious about caffeine with respect to ultra in general, but maybe even more so in these multi-days where I think it's, you know, it's a tool, right? It's a performance tool, but I think we need to engage with it differently than, say, a standard endurance race where kind of the performance recommendations are meant to give you this sort of like kind of reduction of perceived effort and ability to push higher on the aerobic intensity spectrum within an hour or two, or maybe less.

But when we get into ultramarathon and then multi-day ultramarathon, it's still a powerful tool, but it's one that maybe has a dosage variance. Have you seen anything that suggests specific types of protocol with respect to caffeine usage during these multi-days that stands out to you? Yeah. So I mean, it's, it's ki- it's interesting.

Like you see, it seems like creatine is the new caffeine, right? Like where, where- Yeah ... or the new thing that's like a, a well-studied supplement that we want to see if we can implement it for, for our success in these races. So with caffeine, like I, I... my own personal strategy is I, I don't avoid it night one, but I certainly don't lean on it.

I'll usually have something like a gel or something that has a little bit of caffeine. Night two, I'll start hitting it a little bit heavier, not like going overboard on it, but it's usually somewhere in the 2 to 400 milligram range for night two. And then if I'm going into night three, I kinda take the leash off and just I, I've, I've gone as much as 300 milligrams an hour for three hours.

Oh, wow. Okay. Which, which I, I've run by a dietician in a hypothetical, you know, asking for a friend type of situation because y- you know, it's a drug and you need to be careful and figure out what works for you. Like caffeine has a really long half-life, so it's, you know, it's five to six, maybe even seven hours, depending on how you metabolize it.

So, you know, if you take 400 milligrams, it's going to be in your system for a very, very long time. So if you are planning to sleep, I think you need to be very strategic about when you take caffeine. You know, you can realize "Hey, if I'm committing to a larger dose of caffeine, I am committing to-- I probably shouldn't try to sleep for a very long time."

Uh, so I think it's a, it's a really powerful tool if, if caffeine is something that works well for you, it doesn't give you GI distress and like you can, you can... It can be very, very helpful. I've certainly had very very large doses. I would, uh, check with a dietician and figure out like what you or how you metabolize caffeine, how it affects you, and then, you know, practice larger doses in training.

And not larger like single doses, but stacking it and-- 'cause, you know, if you have a few hundred milligrams an hour for several hours, like again, going back to that half-life, like it's, it's, it's stacking in your bloodstream. Like it's not, you know, you're not like starting fresh each time, so. But yeah, caffeine, caffeine's great.

Yeah. It's interesting to hear you talk about it because my approach has always been with respect to the dosage is the big question, I think. I think most people are gonna probably engage with it in some capacity, unless you're one of the unfortunate individuals who just doesn't respond to caffeine at all.

And if we're gonna engage with it, then it becomes dosage and timing. And I've always kinda thought that's an interesting topic in the sport as a whole because for me, it's like I want to avoid a scenario where I take so much of it that I get overemphasized to go too fast when there's too much left.

But I definitely want the reduction in perceived effort and the mental focusing that I find kind of spares mental bandwidth or spending mental bandwidth energy. So, for shorter ultras or 100-mile ultras, I've always done smaller doses more frequently 'cause I find that narrows my focus onto what I wanna be spending my energy, my mental energy on, and kind of eliminates some of that side chatter that can exhaust you mentally that you don't really need to be thinking about.

But it doesn't give me that rocket boost that gets me running 15, 20 seconds per mile faster than I should and then, and then pay for it at the end. But I also think once you start getting into things where sleep pressure gets very pronounced, then getting into some of those higher doses you talked about might be a lever worth pulling if it can just bring you back to baseline.

So, like, when we get into the sleep pressure side of things, now all of a sudden getting back up to baseline may be a higher dose than getting back to baseline for me in an event that takes 12 or less hours. Yeah. And I think, like, when I'm doing those higher doses, it's like, it's a last-ditch effort.

I'm-- I know I'm not sleeping. The race is o- e- essentially over. This is, you know, it, it's for the final push or, you know, to get me out of that final night. So- Going up Mount Elden. Yeah. I g- that's, that's, that's where I've done it. Uh, I have a funny screenshot of, uh, my text with my dietician of "How, how much caffeine can I take?"

And she's-- Or, "How can my friend take it?" And she's "Well, how much does your friend weigh?" Internet. Yeah. We're, like, texting while I'm, while I'm approaching Elden. So it's, uh, yeah, mu- much more strategic when there's more time left in the race, when there's consequences of your actions. Mm-hmm. But, you know, you hear Killy and I know Zach Howard with the creatine experiments. You need to be careful and, and know, uh, you shouldn't be doing this for the first time in a race unless it's a Hail Mary.

You need to know how your body's gonna react to taking these things, but they can-- Some-- I mean, caffeine can be a huge part of your 200-plus strategy, especially if you are trying to Mitigate sleep and sleep deprivation as much as possible. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is very individual, and I think where, where that crossover point where people start getting maybe a little more anxiety than is worth having or a digestive issue that can make you go slower than you would have otherwise is definitely something that I think ranges quite widely.

'Cause, I mean, I even know myself where-- I, I actually figured out where my threshold was for 100 miles on accident because at Tunnel Hill in 2018, I was taking in a prototype product that I was work- working with, and I, I had gotten-- I was told it was 50 milligrams per serving, and it was actually 100 milligrams.

So I was doubling my dose throughout that race, not knowing it until I got further on to the race and I started to get digestive issues that were, like, atypical to what the protocol I was using would have normally resulted in. So I was kind of trying to figure out what was going on there that was different.

And then I f- I found out after the fact that I was two-- I had two X'd my caffeine intake and likely drove some digestive issues from that. So you do wanna be careful. You do wanna stress test stuff and make sure that you are finding where your individual points of diminishing returns occur with some of these things and look at them as tools that aren't necessarily if it worked for him, it works for me type of a strategy.

Yeah. That's exactly what happened to-- We had-- I don't know if you know Michael Koppe. He was the oldest finisher ever of the Arrowhead 135. He was the oldest finisher of Cocodona the year that he finished it. He was taking caffeine pills last, or two years ago at Arrowhead, and he DNF'd six miles from the finish because he thought they were 100 milligram pills, and they were 200 milligram pills, and he was kinda-- He took I forget how much.

I think it was, like, 600 milligrams in an, maybe an hour, and he got really-- he got sick and jittery and had to stop. But then he went back and finished and became the oldest finisher of Arrowhead. So it is-- Y- yeah. Be, be aware of what you're taking. You know, just like you don't take a pill from a stranger at a bar.

Like- ... make sure you, uh, understand exactly the dosage of the things you're, you're putting in, 'cause it, it-- Yeah. It's-- Once it's in, it's, it's not coming back out, at least not the way you want it to. Yeah. Well, we can put that in the category of what I've talked to Killian and Rachel about, which is you-- all of you are putting that first layer of protocol in place, so when people come into the sport later, they're starting from a higher point, and then we're gonna see the growth in performance because they're starting from a, a clear set of protocols to, to build from.

So- Yeah ... add that to the list. We're just creating a framework. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, Zach- Awesome, Kevin. We'll- I got a- Go ahead ... I have a question for you. Are you, uh- Yeah ... are you aware of the Last Man Standing happening within Cocodona? No. Mm-mm. The, uh, so there's, there's the four- Yes ... the four runners who, so there's Andy Glaze, Jeff Garmire, Jose Sosa, and Aaron Fleischer.

So we recorded a really fun episode. It's, I think it's gonna come out next week or the week after, with the four of those guys talking about the last man standing at Cocodona, and I'm just kinda asking everyone else who's familiar with the race as, as we lead up to it, like w- what they think, 'cause we asked them this question and it was really fun and funny.

So Zach, how far do you think that is gonna go, and who do you think is gonna win? I love this question. I have one question to ask you before I answer, though, 'cause maybe you haven't seen this yet, and maybe I'm wrong about this, but I saw yesterday on Instagram that they're not granting auto entries for those four participants, so it's possible that they won't all be able to do what would be their seventh attempt, uh, because they have to get in through the lottery now.

I-- It wasn't yesterday, it was a little earlier, so it could have changed, but when we recorded the episode, I, I heard that, that they were getting- Okay ... granted entry. So as- let's say assuming they, they-- that the reason that, you know, that they are all getting in is how long does it go and, and who... Yeah. Okay.

So yeah, the-- Okay, let, let's just-- We'll, we'll work from the, from the understanding they're all getting in. I hope that is the case, 'cause I really like this and I really hope this gets to the final, the final s- last man standing. I- I'm definitely biased between Andy and Jeff. Jeff, I mean, Jeff has some of that long haul stuff in his back pocket, which tells me he's a guy you do not wanna bet against.

But I've talked to some-- to Andy about some of the injuries he's kind of powered through with regards to his 100 mile a week streak, which I think is why I don't... It's multiple years. It's 360, 370. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a crazy number. I think I'm gonna bet on Andy. Okay. But I don't want a gun to my head on that bet.

And how f- how far is it going? So we're in year six. Oh, how far is it going? Actually, I'm rethinking this now, 'cause Jeff's younger. Mm-hmm. Jeff's younger. Actually, I'm changing my bet. I'm, I'm, I'm... Sorry, Andy. I'm betting on Jeff. I'm guessing 10. I'm guessing 10 is gonna be the, the number that either something happens where one of them finishes and the rest don't, and therefore it solves for itself within that year, or 10 becomes this number of "I need to move on to something else.

This is getting too absurd." So I'll go Jeff and 10. Okay. Jeff and 10. I'll, I'll say that I went into the episode recording with these guys with an opinion and a, and a prediction, and by the end of the episode, I changed it. Did you? Okay. So- So I'm not on my own with that ... so I, I, I think-- I, I now think it's gonna be someone else who I originally thought.

And so I had them all write the answers down so they couldn't be influenced by each other's answers, and we asked them that question that I just asked you. We asked them when their streak comes to an end specifically how it ends and why. It was a really, really fun episode. So thanks for weighing in.

We'll see, uh, w- I've got a lot of predictions from outsiders as well, so we'll-- When, when this eventually does come to an end, we'll, we'll, we'll see who was right. Revisit it. So is that episode out already? Not yet. Uh, it, uh-- Maybe it'll come out before this one. I don't know. I, I, it, I think we're recording, what, on, uh, the June 1st here?

It should be out, uh, next week. Okay. So we-- This might come up right before that, but if you're listening to this, just know in a couple of days, that episode's coming out. I've got my long run sorted for-- listening sorted for when that episode launches. I can't wait to listen to those four guys chat- It was a blast

about their experiences. It was a lot of silliness. Yeah. Awesome. Well, no, thanks for asking. That's a fun question. Yeah. Yeah. We, I, I, like we had- we've had a ton of people weigh in, like Cocodona people who have been around the race for a long time, so it's been really fun- Yeah ... to, uh... And man, e- every single one has gotten picks, so the, it, it's, uh, yeah, it's a crapshoot.

Okay. I won't ask you to share yours, because I don't want to sp- be a spoiler if your episode's coming out after this one. But maybe once I stop recording, I'll ask you what you picked. Okay. Sounds good. Yeah, you have to go listen to the, to the, the main episode to hear my pick. Or, or maybe, yeah, maybe you shouldn't tell me even after the recording so I have that surprise element.

Either way, can you let listeners know where they can find you other than Distance to Empty Podcast? Anything on socials or websites that you want people to know about? Uh, sure. Thanks. Uh, yeah, Distance to Empty Podcast is where I'm most active. I'm not super active on my own pro- personal social media, which is, uh, I mean, it's Kevin Goldberg, Ultra Fly Kev on Instagram.

But, uh, if you message Distance to Empty Pod on Instagram, that's 99% of the time me who gets that. And then yeah, we're Distance to Empty Pod on Apple and Spotify. And, uh, yeah, I'm all over. If you, if you, if you want me, you'll find me. Very cool. Awesome. Well, I'll put those links in the show notes too, and hopefully listeners can head over and check out some of the stuff that you've been putting out there.

Awesome. Thank you so much, Zach. This was fun. Absolutely. Take care, Kevin.