Episode 483: Arizona Monster 300 Course Record | Mike McKnight

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Mike McKnight is an ultramarathon athlete, coach, and former Triple Crown of 200s record holder. He is a trailblazer for 200+ mile trail events, and on a mission this year to win as many as possible. He recently won and set the course record at the Arizona 300 Mile, and has his sights on Cocodona 250, Tahoe 200, Hardrock 100, Bigfoot 200, and Moab 240 this year.

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Timestamps:

00:00 Highlight Reel

00:51 Podcast Intro Sponsors

02:33 Post Race Fatigue

03:51 Backyard Ultra Talk

08:37 Sleep Strategy Deep Dive

10:22 Evolving Multi Day Racing

18:33 Arizona Monster 300 Comeback

19:55 Burnout And Reset

24:21 Injury Rekindles Why

27:30 Cross Training Toolkit

32:12 Structured Versus Feel

36:02 Stacked 2025 Race Plan

39:58 Race By Race Focus

41:48 Recovery Timeline Confidence

43:10 Chasing Triple Crown Record

43:56 Course Records Debate

45:59 Ultra Media Needs Context

50:42 Building Better Coverage

54:21 Nutrition Approach Update

56:08 Flexible Eating Mindset

01:00:59 Mind Body Back Pain

01:05:01 In Race Fueling Reality

01:07:06 Limits Of Digestion

01:10:28 Aftermath Swelling Muscle Loss

01:13:35 Mike’s New 200 Mile Event

01:16:20 Wrap

Ep isode Transcript:

00:00:00] Alright, Mike, welcome back. Thanks Zach. Thanks for having me back. Yeah, no, it's, it's been a minute, but I think you've been on here at least a couple times, so it's always fun to have you on in, in chat, ultra marathon and anything that goes into it. So I'm excited to have you back on. Yeah. And I love chatting with you.

Yeah. How are you feeling right now? You're, you got most of, uh, Arizona Monster 300 out of the legs or still a little bit of lingering fatigue from that? Uh, there's still some fatigue. I, I mean, I've been training a fair amount still. I've been doing a lot of cycling, some running, but my leg fatigue is definitely still there.

I broke my pinky last week, my pinky toe. No way. Yeah. So that slowed things down a little bit. Was that during the race or after? No it was after. It's never a cool scenario, like during the race. No, it's dumb. I was mowing my lawn with my vibrant five fingers and uh, I opened up my gate to get into my backyard and my dog tried sprinting out.

Oh. So I threw [00:01:00] my leg up in front of him to stop him and in the process I kicked my fence post really hard with my pinky toe and broke my pinky toe. No, no. And there, there's not really anything you can do about that. Right. They don't reset toe, broken toe bones. You just have to kind of say No. Tolerate it for a while.

I just taped it together and then I took two days off from running and I cycled, which was uncomfortable because those shoes are super tight. Yeah. And then I tried running yesterday and it's just like a three in discomfort. So I think I'm okay. Light work for someone like you from the pain discomfort side of things, I suppose.

Yeah, I guess so. Speaking of foot issues, did you follow any of the BPN Go on more ultra stuff This last week, the last man standing. Yeah, I didn't see anything about foot issues. I saw that, that vet in his wheelchair though. Yeah, that was pretty cool. That was incredible. I was, uh, I, I mean, I'm, I'm just curious now how far he can actually go minus essentially [00:02:00] equipment failure.

I mean, it rained and got so muddy out there. His wheelchair just clogged up with mud and he couldn't go. Like me, presumably he was fine, I guess no other than that. And I think he was 108 miles in or something like that. So I'm just thinking man, how far does this guy end up going if it's dry the whole time?

Yeah, I know there's a pretty epic picture of him dragging the wheelchairs through the mud too. Yeah. Yeah. So wild. I mean, I, I, the reason I asked is because, uh, mark Doddle who won it, he was on the podcast a few weeks ago and he's just an interesting guy that, I dunno how much you know about his story, but he kind of got into the backyard stuff as like sort of his intro, introduction to Ultra and.

I think he hit 87 miles or something like that in his first backyard Ultra. And I think even his second one, he didn't get to a hundred and he just kind of kept learning and chipping away. And then he hit like 308, uh, at this last one. So it's just kinda a cool story. But anyway, he posted his feed after that and since was wet basically the whole [00:03:00] time.

He had these just gnarly blisters and like little sores and all sorts of different it, it, it looked rough. Not gonna lie, I'm, I don't want my feet to look like that at any time soon. So now that you say that, I think I saw, I don't know if it was a story or reel where his feet were up on the dashboard of his van or whatever.

Yeah. I didn't see that. His feet looked pretty gross. He was one of the ones there last year that essentially tied for first because of the bad weather. No, the guy, Kendall was one of the, was the second the, the assist. So he was with the tie last year. He and Kim, uh, got we, is it, I think it's Kim got wheel, uh, was they tied with the storm, so, okay.

Yeah. I think people were kind of rooting for maybe a showdown between those two because of last year's conclusion. But that was gonna be a tough sell in general. 'cause Harvey Lewis was there, Mark seemed like he's just been kind of like improving over the years and was in [00:04:00] a good spot to really go and crush one, and then he ended up doing it.

So it'll be kind of fun to see that one keeps growing. But yeah, I mean, when you said you broke your foot, foot, my, my brain immediately went to that just because I've been following that the last few days. Yeah. No, it's, it's amazing how nasty your feet can get at these things. Yeah, no doubt. Yeah. I'm sure you've got some, some horror stories, but you haven't, you haven't done one of the backyard alters yet, have you?

Not that format. I've done Jamal's format where it's like 1.4 miles every 20 minutes. I do a bar, I wanna do a backyard. I just haven't gotten to it yet. Yeah, I, I mean, I would think you'd crush that, that would be like right up your alley maybe. I mean, the, I, I can't say for sure 'cause I haven't done the traditional, but just on paper and in my head, I feel like the 1.4 mile format is more difficult.

Mm-hmm. And I'm not just saying that because I've done it, because I essentially, like you would come in. Anywhere from 14 to 17 minutes and then you'd have to do it again. So, mm-hmm the amount of time you have to take care of yourself shortens quite a bit [00:05:00] with that format, but I'm sure either way it's just hard to have no finish line and keep going.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I think I probably agree at least if we're looking for, looking at through the lens of how long it can end up taking, because the format you mentioned, you can't really take any meaningful naps. Whereas one thing I learned, 'cause when I first saw that format come up, I was like, ' this is kind of cool 'cause it sort of takes the speed component out where you don't have a huge incentive to be really fast and finish in 30, 35 minutes.

So then all of a sudden you could get someone who's maybe not very fast, but just has an iron mind. They're really durable and just kind of keep churning 'em out. And then I had Phil Gore on who's got the record and he was telling me like, nah, the reason we're able to push this out to almost five days, which is where he's got the record right now, was because he'll take like these.

Maybe 10, 15 minute naps. And the way he does it is he doesn't nap much during the day, but at night, basically every hour he is trying to get 10, 15 minutes when he finishes a loop. So [00:06:00] he'll run faster at night, try to sleep, and then he said he's just stacking that over the course of those days. And he said that's why he's able to get it that far out.

But the format you mentioned probably takes it off the table, which maybe just people check out after sleep deprivation as like the bigger limiter then. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think I took a three minute nap when I did it. Uh, all I had time for. You're, you're pretty low sleep in general with these multi-day things though anyway, right?

Like you're never really sleeping that much during the 200 plus milers. Yeah. At the Monster, the 300 I was out for a little over three days. And would that be Friday night, Saturday night, three nights and I slept 20 minutes. Okay. So I don't, I don't sleep a lot. Yeah. Is it that you just have a hard time falling asleep or you find that that's gonna be the best approach for you to avoid it?

Both because I've tried, tried taking longer naps at races, and those races I generally don't do as good at for [00:07:00] whatever reason. And then, yeah, a lot of times I just can't shut my brain off, even though I'm exhausted. Like at the Monster, I tried sleeping for the first time Saturday night, so I went Friday night without sleeping.

And then Saturday night I planned to sleep for an hour, but I woke up after 10 minutes and so I just, I got up and, and continued onwards. So I think I just do better. Plus I can't sleep even though I'm exhausted. Yeah, my, uh, because I slept 20 minutes, so I took two 10 minute naps. The second time was like Monday during the day I was falling asleep on the trail, so I leaned on a tree.

To take a nap there. And I told my pacer to set an alarm for 10 minutes, but I woke up eight minutes later, like I woke up before his alarm went off. So even though I'm absolutely wrecked and exhausted, I still can't, for whatever reason , sleep more than 10 minutes at a time. Were you sitting against the tree or literally standing and leaning against it?

No, I was sitting okay. I was gonna say the way you, the way you said it made me think, like you were just kinda leaned up against it and dozed off. I was like, wow. That'd be incredible if you could pull that off. But [00:08:00] no, there's a picture on my Instagram, I'm just sitting on it and just leaning my head back on it and sleeping.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm just really interested and like at this point in time, I'm just a fan of the multi-day stuff. I haven't done anything nearly that crazy, but it's so interesting to watch all of you. Uh, I've been calling it like a trailblazers essentially is what everyone in that world I think is doing is everyone is kind of figuring out what the protocol is, kind of like what we maybe saw with a hundred milers.

A decade ago or so when they were starting to get more popular and people were starting to kind of fine tune stuff. You know, at first it was like a lot of anecdotes, a lot of I tried this, I tried that this worked, this didn't work. And then eventually we get around to actually maybe getting a little more formal with protocols that are likely to yield better results than others.

So people have a good starting point. Whereas with these multi-day things, I think we're kind of a little bit still in that where you know, guys like yourself are out there answering some of the questions around things like, well what is the sleep protocol that's gonna be best for [00:09:00] this type of event?

Or what type of pacing strategy should I employ? Hydration? Everything that goes into the tons of variables and things like that. So kind of as a fan of the sport, I find it really interesting to kind of follow that storyline and everything all you guys are up to. Yeah, and it's hard to give a definitive answer on how to do it, especially with sleep.

'cause like Jeff Browning, he's still my coach. And we chatted after the Monster, and when he found out I only slept 20 minutes, he was kind of blown away because he needs more sleep than that. And it just goes to show, especially with sleep, that for these multi-day events, there's, in my opinion, no definitive answer for certain things like that.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And they have some research on some cycling events where they suggest that sleeping is gonna improve performance, like sleeping a little earlier than what you would maybe imagine. And I think that is one of those things where it sounds great in theory, but. You know, if you can't, you can't.

Right. And then you just end up wasting [00:10:00] time. Yeah, and I also think cycling is an extrapolation in our sport because we need to, but at the end of the day, I think we have to be careful about how strong that evidence ends up being. Because you know when you're cycling, obviously if you sleep, if you fall asleep on the bike and crash, you're in a lot more trouble than if you're kind of like hiking along on the trail and then decide to kind of lay down real quick.

I think it's gonna be a little bit lower, conseque, although in Arizona, maybe you fall on a cactus and then you might be in rough shape. Seems little. A black, black rattlesnake. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. That's interesting. Yeah, I mean, I think it's all just cool to see the popularity of it come up too, because my, my, my interpretation of any of this stuff is like competitive pressure is what really answers a lot of these questions because you remove so much of the bias at that point.

'cause everyone's goal in that context is just to try to win. So if they can improve by doing something different, then they're gonna try it. And if that ends up working at a grand enough scale, then all of a sudden it gets adopted by more people as kind of the foundational element. So yeah, I had [00:11:00] Rachel Kin, she seems to think sleeping is gonna be something that gets avoided more and more as it gets more competitive.

I was, I'm not sure how convinced I am of that. Whether it ends up being something where the people who end up winning in the long term are ones that maybe that's something they can do a little bit easier, where that's like a skillset that needs to be developed in order to optimize. If it gets to the point where people are winning these things inside by a handful of minutes versus multiple hours.

But time will tell, I guess. Yeah. And I mean, did she, I can't remember, did she share how much she slept? Like when she did her last was, it was, was Mammoth the last one? She did? She did. I think Mammoth was the last 200 she did. I wanna say it wasn't much. I think she's maybe if I, I could be wrong about this, but I, for some reason I'm thinking like 15 minutes or something like that.

It was pretty low. I mean, I think it just goes back to show what I was just saying, like it's, it's very individualized. Like I agree with her, [00:12:00] but I don't think Jeff Browning is gonna agree with her. Mm-hmm. Or in the movie The Chase where it followed me, Arlin, Jeff Verte and Joe McConaughey, like there's a part.

Have you seen that show? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So there's a very part for those that don't know, it's a documentary on Coca Donut in 2024, but there's a part where they focus heavily on Joe Stream Bean and how he struggled with sleep and how he feels that that sleep struggle affected him. And so Joe, I mean, I don't know Joe that well, but based off of that and that documentary, to me that would indicate he's somebody that does need more sleep and that sleep is gonna help him move faster.

I mean, looking over the monster, like the Arizona monster, the guy who got second place I beat him by eight-ish hours, but I'm pretty sure my wife and crew were like looking at the actual moving time and he actually moved faster. Really the night [00:13:00] when he was actually moving. I don't know how much he actually slept, how much he spent at aid stations.

But some people can just move a little bit slower, but longer with little sleep and some people can move a lot faster with that sleep. It's just only time will tell at the end of that race whose strategy pays off better, you know? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I think my curiosity is when if the sport, if these, these multi-day get really, really popular to the degree that there's just let's just say there's 10 times as much talent at the top, there's 10 of you, 10 of killians, 10 of the venture, it's Rachel Kins in there.

If there'll be one that sort of pops up as this is the winning. Strategy. And if you don't have it, you just get teased out the same way. If someone says the marathon doesn't have, uh, their, their pace at their lactate threshold fast enough to compete, like maybe they can't, you know, they're just not gonna stick with the guys who do at the end of the day.

Because now all of a sudden, like [00:14:00] when those guys make a move, they've got a little bit of wiggle room and that person doesn't, and then they blow up. I wonder if some of those variables will end up getting identified as you have to have it in order to be on the podium, but it'd have to get quite a bit more competitive, I would imagine.

'cause it's just one variable. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, look at Dan Green at Coca Donut last year. Like him, do you know how much he slept at Coca Donut? I don't know if I've seen a podcast that I had him on after. I'm sure I asked him, or maybe I didn't. But I would imagine I asked him that, but I don't remember what he said.

Yeah, I'd have to go back and look because like even, and that's another variable too, one of the earlier documentaries on two hundreds ultra put on when I was an employee for Ultra, it was on the triple crown of two hundreds in 2017. And in there there's like a quote by Jeff Browning where he is talking about how two hundreds require a ton of strategic hiking.

But fast forward to today, and that's not as important anymore. Like you still need to be a good hiker for sure, but like these times are just getting quicker and quicker and [00:15:00] quicker. And like Dan Green's the perfect example of that. Like him, he's a fast dude and that was his first 200 and he absolutely crushed it.

So I think it just goes to show that everybody's approach is different when it comes to sleep, but yeah, I don't know what I'm trying to say, but yeah, like the ratio of running to walking is starting to skew more towards running than it was in the past. So now all of a sudden that that skill set of hiking is still important just at a smaller amount than it was in the past.

Exactly. And maybe that's what Rachel's saying about sleep too. I don't know. Yeah, it could be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting stuff. It's, it's fun to see just like the different, the different kind of distances within that two to 300 mile side of things and, but yeah, I mean, I kind of wanna get into some specifics with you too, because you've just had such an interesting journey through the sport, in my opinion, where you were one of the very early adopters to these 200 milers.

You were like the guy too, that kind of really popped him up, in my opinion, in the US anyway. And by winning all of them essentially. And then [00:16:00] like you kind of had a little phase of maybe burnout, like your back issue kind of flared up and you sort of went back to square one and rebuilt yourself.

And then with Arizona Monster 300, it was kind of. What it seemed like, from my view, watching was like, this is kinda alright, let's see if this new strategy that I'm employing now is gonna work for these the way they did in the past. And I don't know, maybe you can tell me, did the, did, did the, the win and cr there kind of confirm that in your mind and instill some confidence?

Yeah, yeah. I was telling my wife Sarah that this race took me back to 2019, the year that I won all three of Candace's races. Just my enthusiasm for it, everything went as well as it could. The little sleep that I took, like me having confidence that I would get the win like it, it took me back to 2019.

So yeah, it gave me a lot more confidence for the year that I have ahead of me and kind of confirmed that the fire. Re lit because [00:17:00] yeah, I, I do feel like I've had some burnout for the past three or four years, which is another thing to maybe explore with these 200 mile distances because they do take a lot out of you.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the frequency at which you were doing them well and a lot of people in that space too. 'cause it was kind of one of those things where the more of 'em you do the, the more likely you're able to kind of build a career around it essentially. Yeah, and I mean, I think we saw that last year with Killian Keith where he went from somebody who is, I imagine, kind of self-funding his efforts to a, to a degree.

And then now it's okay, now he can treat a little bit more like a profession where his main focus every day is to train and prepare for these things. And then you can maybe be a little more picky at that point. But yeah, like you think it was the frequency of racing that kind of led to your burnout or was it just everything else going on too?

I think it was the frequency. It's hard to say though 'cause you don't know what's happening while it's happening, but like where I'm at right now, I can be like, oh yeah, yeah, that's, that's definitely what was happening. You know, you could [00:18:00] ask my wife like for the past three or four years, like she was questioning if I like what I do, like every aid station I'd come into just miserable and I'd complain about everything and I was just super emotional and just wasn't enjoying anything.

And she told me like, you know, this race, the Arizona Monster, this was the first race and she can't remember how long I didn't complain once I actually smiled. I was having fun, I don't know if you saw my story, but we had a Backstreet Boys Dance Party station like yeah. So now looking back, I'm like, yeah, I definitely was not having fun for whatever reason and whether that was racing too much or, I mean, I've been doing this.

I mean, I, I, I can't remember how long you've been doing this, Zach. I, I'm, I know you've probably been doing it longer than me, but I've been doing this since 2013. Mm-hmm. So that's 13 years. And aside from I mean, I can count on one hand the amount of times I've been injured [00:19:00] enough to the point where I have to take time off and if I had to guess, like out of these past 13 years, I've been consistently training hard for all, but maybe well, last year jacked the numbers up a lot for how much time I had to take off.

I basically had to take May to, to October, off October or November. So I took most of last year off 'cause of my back injury. But if you take away last year, like up until that point, like I probably took a total of like eight to 10 weeks off of running. Outside of a rest day or a taper or recovery, like true injury, taking a step back.

So I've been training hard for 13 years. So yeah, I, I think it just accumulated over that amount of time and, and my body and mind just needed a break and taking seven months off last year, finally did that for me. Yeah, it is funny because I, I, I mean, I agree 100%, like you've been at it for a long time.

Like my first ultra was in [00:20:00] 2010. I didn't do another one for a full year. So, maybe the way to look at it is from a full-time frequency standpoint, it was like late 2011 when I sort of, kind of got into that. Of alright, every half year I'm essentially building up towards this event and then maybe have a few in there as tuneup races and things like that.

And it's just one of those things where I think when you stretch out to that duration of time, you're gonna have some sort of fallback or some sort of alright, I need to find another spark or another why, or I need to evolve. Because things are just different. You know, things are different when you've done everything that you've done.

Uh, or in my case, you know, I've run fast enough at a hundred mile distance where it's if I find myself on a track to do a hundred miler, it's like how motivated am I gonna be to do that if I'm not in a position to try to pr? 'cause it's not a very aesthetically pleasing environment to be in.

Yeah. So it's like kinda figuring out like what you're trying to do it for and things like that I think also plays into it, but then just, yeah, the physical and mental kind of fatigue that, [00:21:00] uh, kind of adds up where sometimes I think you just need to cut off or change direction and then let that sort of.

Rekindle itself a bit and get your energies back, which sounds like you, you have. Yeah, I had that last year, tell people all the time, and I had to relive it last year and kind of like reaffirm oh yeah, everything I've been saying, this is actually how I felt, even though the past maybe three or four years that it was just words and I didn't truly believe it.

Mm-hmm. But, and I'm sure we've talked about this on previous podcasts, but I broke my back in 2012 and that's kind of what catapulted me into ultra running. But whenever people ask me why, you know, I tell them when I broke my back, I didn't know what physical activity was gonna be like. Like I was worried I was gonna be paralyzed.

I was worried that I couldn't run. And so. Me, I would much rather be out running and suffering at mile one 50 versus sitting in a wheelchair paralyzed, wishing that I could go live life, you know? Mm-hmm. And I'm not saying people in wheelchairs can't live life. Like obviously [00:22:00] that guy stinks Mike.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, you understand what I'm saying? But like last year, I had a herniated disc. It was huge. It was pinching so many of my nerves. I had nerve damage in my right leg. Like I could barely stand up. I had my wife, she had to get me out of bed a couple of times 'cause I couldn't move, like herniating, my disc hurt worse than breaking my back.

If I'm being honest, but like I had to re I essentially had to live last year. I told people how I didn't want to live and like last year in particular, like I saw, and I love Killian Coth, like he's an awesome dude. He and I went for dinner together after the Monster. Like we're, we're friends.

So there's no hostility or like anger that he took my record last year. But like sitting on the sideline and seeing somebody go and take your record away from you, like one, like having a record taken from you, like it's a cool experience 'cause it's a record, but two, it's like, it kind of stings a little bit.

It's dang it, somebody, somebody beat it. And [00:23:00] throwing on top of that, not being able to, to go out and do anything myself from an ultra running perspective, just really humbled me last year and made me realize how much I do enjoy this sport. Uh, before I hurt my back, I was dabbling in high rocks for a little bit.

I do think that's fun. And I was in this weird limbo stage where I was like, can I do both? Can I train for an ultra? Can I train for hard rocks and do both? But this injury finally made me realize how much I do love this sport and, and how much I just wanna focus on it and get back into it.

So, so yeah. I don't know if that directly answered your question, but essentially, that is what got me going again this year. Was that injury last year? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's one of those things where I think there's a couple things going on there. One is when, I mean, for me anyway, it's like. If I feel like I'm almost entitled to be able to do something, you can lose that motivation.

'cause it's okay, this is always here. It's always been here. I can count on it. And you [00:24:00] almost take it for granted. Whereas you get an injury or something that's preventing you from doing it, where you have to actively step back and the timeline to return it looks pretty lengthy if not indefinite.

Then all of a sudden it's okay, well now I want that. Okay. And I think, and then, you know, hopefully you give it enough time to kind of let everything kind of physically and mentally recover too. Which sounds like you had quite a bit of time to be able to do that. And then when, when your back surgery, when you canceled your back surgery and found a different path forward, it was like, okay, things are lining up.

Yeah. Yeah. And it also helped me find another sport that I enjoy to supplement in between these races. 'cause this year I'm basically doing a 200 every month aside from Hard Rock, which is essentially a 200 in my opinion. Yeah. But I'm essentially doing a 200 every month. So it's you know, after finishing the Monster, before Coca Donut, I've been implementing the bike a lot more, which I bought last year to get me through [00:25:00] that injury.

So I wouldn't be doing that right now. I'd still be just trying to run and probably overtrain myself from a running standpoint before Coca Donut. So, I mean, this is a completely side tangent from what you're, what you originally asked me, but I mean, that's another good thing about injuries too, is you can find other stuff to help you recover and train through, through, through a big season.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it actually wasn't a, it was a good transition. 'cause my next question for you was going to be. Like, 'cause you, I mean, you dabbled in high Rocks, you dabbled in gravel racing, gravel bike racing, and you know, got into cycling and things like that. And do you feel like that kind of gave you a toolkit that you're gonna use now going forward to supplement the running side of things that you had done in the past to make it a little more sustainable?

Yeah. Yeah, so I am strength training now. I rode a bike now, like I told Zach before this podcast started . I have just over an hour, 'cause I'm going on a group bike ride tonight. So yeah, like me, I would say that all of this, so I have an [00:26:00] all or nothing mentality, but that's slowly starting to change for the better.

And so like when I dabbled in High Rocks, I wanted to go a hundred percent into High Rocks. A hundred percent into ultra running, which I, in retrospect, I think might have contributed to my back injury. And then like last year I was a hundred percent into cycling, but that was mostly inevitable because I had nothing else that I could do.

But now that I have all these things and I know that I wanna focus on ultra running this year, I am using them all together to make me a better runner. So, even though, technically, like if I didn't do the Monster, I'd be doing like peak week right now for Coca Donut. I'm obviously not gonna go out and try to run a hundred miles this week 'cause I just, I'm not Andrew Glaze, you know?

Yeah, right, right, right. But I mean, my overall volume is still about 20 hours a week. And I did that last week, and that was the week after the monster. But only. Four or five of those hours were actually running. I biked 140 miles [00:27:00] last week. I lifted weights for seven or eight hours last week.

So, yeah, to answer your question, dabbling in these different sports has definitely given me a lot more to do through certain phases of my training to keep me moving while giving my running legs the break that they need. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's an interesting mindset shift in my opinion with that sort of thing because it, you know, for me personally, it was like I fell in love with running.

So my draw is more there than it is hopping on the bike or going in and doing strength work or any other kind of supplementary activity. But when I'm honest with myself, it's like there is. An amount of running where more isn't necessarily better and kind of figuring out where you can plug those tools in so that you're, you're almost not making a good thing, which is your motivation to, to be a runner and to do the running and the work that's required to get good to such a high degree that now all of a sudden [00:28:00] you're finding yourself like a little less motivated 'cause you're overcooked or injured and things like that.

And it's just kind of like, now all of a sudden you look at that as a value add versus something that you do as a, as a gap to fill because you need to, and it's gonna be a setback. So it's like looking at those different things as these are actively actually making me better versus a compromise that could potentially take performance off the table.

Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it provides balance for sure. Yeah. And I think it's just interesting too, when you get into the longer stuff where, uh, you know, Mark Dole is big on strength work. I was looking at some of his training, he's like a little more kind of. I guess intuitive about this, here's another, this is a little bit of a tangent, but the other thing I always ask, like the 200 plus multi-day people, is how structured they get with their training.

Are you like someone who sits there and plans out I'm gonna do this workout here, this one there, I'm gonna dive into the data and assess it. Or are you on the opposite of the spectrum where it's kind of more, [00:29:00] I think maybe Courtney Dewal or Popularizes, just 'cause she's such a big name in the sport where it's just kinda oh, I go out and I run a lot and when I feel good I run harder and when I don't, I run a little slower.

And it just seemed like it was kind of all field-based. So I think Mark and Rachel were very field-based, I would say like Killian was a lot more structured with his approach. Uh, you strike me as someone who's more structured probably than not, but also very like open-minded in terms of kind of pivoting when, whenever it kind of makes sense.

But you can tell me like, do you feel, feel. Fall, somewhere on that spectrum that stands out. Uh, you're a good people reader. 'cause you're, you're right. I mean, Jeff Brownie is my coach, so he structures it for me. Mm-hmm. But I would say 80 to 90, probably closer to 80% of the time. I am structured and I follow Jeff's plan, but you can ask Jeff.

There's times when I do way more than what he tells me to do. There's times when I do less during that burnout phase I went through, so this would've been back in 2024. I did Coca Donut two [00:30:00] 50 and Tahoe 200 between Coca Donut and Tahoe. Jeff had me doing some running, but I texted him and I think this is when I started to notice I was kind of getting burnt out, but I was like, Hey dude, like running just does not sound fun right now, so I need two weeks to do whatever I want, basically.

Mm-hmm. And so for two weeks, I didn't run once and I mountain biked one to three hours a day. And that's the reset that I needed. So. I do have a coach because I do like that structure, but I, like today, for example, I'm supposed to just bike for the two and a half hour ride that I'm doing tonight with our group.

But like you, I like running more, and so I rearranged some coaching calls earlier today so I could get in a quick 40 minute run, so mm-hmm. I ran 40 minutes today, even though my plan was just to do two and a half hours of biking. So I do like the structure, but like the Bruce Lee quote, be like, water, go adapt to your surroundings.

Like I'm, I'm gonna do that. And if I feel like doing more or less, I don't have issues with that. [00:31:00] Yeah. Well, and you know, Jeff's been around long enough too. I'm sure like when you make a pivot like that, he can look at your plan and say, okay, we shuffle these things around maybe and we're still gonna get the intent out of what I'm trying to do here.

Just maybe not in the exact same order I originally had it there. That's kinda the fun part of coaching in my opinion too, is just 'cause there is also that like communication side of it where maybe you're physically and mentally ready to tolerate a little bit more than he programmed and then you do it and then as a result down the road you need a little bit less.

And you're kind of finding that balance as you go through it in terms of hitting enough training stimulus to, to drive the adaptation, but responding to when your body asks for some rest and recovery too. Yeah. Yeah. And for Jeff too I'm sure anytime that I try to do something that's less than what he suggests, he's like very relieved because I feel 90% of the time he and I are talking about how I'm doing too much and he's trying to get me to slow down a little bit.

Mm-hmm. So I, I feel like a lot of the stuff, [00:32:00] like with his coaching, for me, he is trying to meet me in the middle with what I want versus what he thinks I should do. And so, yeah, like whenever I text him and say, Hey, I'm taking two weeks off the bike, I'm sure in his head he was like, oh my gosh. Finally, Mike.

Yeah. We might get to the end of the year. Yeah. Yeah. He's good at that. Yeah. So, one thing I wanted to ask you too is just the thought process behind, I mean, you, you maybe sort of answered this or you said you're an all or nothing person. And when, when you signed up for Arizona Mazda 300, you also signed up for the hard wreck.

100, the triple crown of two hundreds, which is three events between 200 and was 205 miles up to 240 essentially between the three. And then Coca Donut two 50 as well. That seems like a pretty hefty schedule. Is there a method to this madness? Well then throw in there too, I'm trying to race directly in my first 200.

That's right. One week after I finish running a [00:33:00] 200. That's the most daunting thing on my schedule, if I'm being honest, is trying to race direct A 200. But, so no, what happened was like. My plan for this, 'cause I didn't even know if I was gonna be able to do Coca Donut 'cause of my back. Like I was, I was scheduled for back surgery mid-January and I was told I'd be out for a few weeks.

So in my head I was like, I don't even know if I can do Coca Donut. So originally the plan was maybe Coca Donut, but get healthy for my surgery and then go after the Arizona Trail in the fall this year. 'cause I've tried doing that three times now and I've failed all three times. Well, as I was approaching my surgery, Candace Burt texted me and told me that the Arizona Trail Association said that the Grand Canyon would be closed for probably the rest of the year, which now they're gonna open in May.

So I didn't need to do this year the way I'm doing it, but. When she told me that, I was like, well, crap, if I can't do the Arizona show, I gotta find something else. And I was [00:34:00] already thinking of canceling my surgery at this point. And so I talked to her and I was like, Hey, like I don't expect any favors here or whatnot, but like I know that your races are basically full.

If I do the Grand Slam, can I get into all of 'em? Like me, I still paid for them. I wasn't asking her to gimme a free entry. I was just saying, Hey, your races are full. If I sign up for all of them, is there still a spot for me? Mm-hmm. And she said yes. And so once I was pretty sure I wasn't gonna get surgery, I signed up for the Monster and for the Triple Crown and I was already signed up for Coca Donut.

So the plan was five two hundred. But then wait, this isn't making sense in my head now. Maybe this was happening earlier than what I originally thought, because it was like a week or so later that I got into Hard Rock, like mm-hmm. The plan was not to do Hard Rock in the midst of all that, but you can't not do Hard rock if you get into Hard Rock.

Exactly. And I already paid for everything else, so I couldn't change my mind on that. So yeah, hard [00:35:00] rock's thrown in there now. So the method was the grand Slam of two hundreds with Coca Donut. But yeah, I've been trying to get into Hard Rock for 10 years, and so it just happened to fall on the worst possible year ever.

Go figure, that's, that's how that's gonna happen. So, yeah. Are you worried at all that this year puts you back into the position you were after 2019, where you feel like you're a little overextended after all, then you need a lot of time to decompress? Or is, are you confident enough in this newer protocol that you're employing this.

To make it work with the high frequency of racing. Yeah, I'm gonna make it work. I mean, there's a small area in the back of my head where I'm worried, but it's just small. This year feels different. Yeah. You can ask my wife if I'm eating lunch every day and I'm, I'm listening to these like-minded podcasts on YouTube.

I don't know if you know who David Bayer is. He talks a lot about changing your reality and, and [00:36:00] stuff. But like I, I've been doing everything I can to like get, be in a good place mentally for this year. And I mean I obviously, after any of these races, things could change just like that. But right now I feel pretty confident I'll be fine.

Yeah. I mean you, I mean, I think one of your strengths is your ability to wrap your head around something like this, whereas a lot of people would look at any one of those events as this. Monstrous. Okay, I gotta. I don't know how I'm gonna make this work. And you know, there's enough kind of fear and uncertainty in just a solo event, but you are very, very good at looking at something like that.

And maybe, I guess taking it one at a time so that you're not necessarily being mentally tortured by the rest of it before it's time to be really worried about it or concerned with it. Yeah. Yeah. Like me, I hadn't thought of Coca Donut until last week. So leading up into the monster is a hundred percent the monster.

I had people that would reach out and ask me about Coca Donut I've [00:37:00] coaching if, if everybody gets off the wait list, I have 12 people who will be at Coca this year. And so I'll have them like, it's Hey, how are you doing this with Coca? And my reply is, I haven't thought about that, so I don't know how I'm gonna do this, but let's talk about how you wanna do it, kind of a thing.

But now that the monster's over. It's a hundred percent Coca Donut. I'm not thinking of Tahoe or any of the other ones. So yeah, I, I mean it's just, I'm sure you've heard Killian or Rachel or somebody give this advice, somebody that's done a 200, where like you can't look at it as a 200 mile race. You have to look at it as eight stations to eight stations.

Mm-hmm. And I feel like that's how this year has to be for me. I can't look at myself doing six big races, it's race by race, and then focus on recovery and how I'm feeling leading into 'em. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's probably, it's like the same skillset that makes you good at the 200 plus milers in the first place that you're applying to the calendar [00:38:00] year in order to make that work.

That's interesting, yeah, and I mean, I don't know how many people realize this. I've said this on a couple podcasts recently this year, but the Triple Crown used to be August, September, October. So like when I did it in 2019, I had three weeks to recover, whereas now. The monster in Coca Donut is very similar on that trajectory, like that timeline, but once Coca Donut's over, I have six or so weeks to recover for Tahoe.

Hard rock being thrown in there kind of messed up that bigger gap that I would've had between Tahoe and Bigfoot. But once I finished Bigfoot, like I still am, that's a big gap. I have almost two months to recover. So I was able to win all three of those races in 2019 and set some form, of course, record on all three of those races in 2019, with only three weeks of recovery.

Like I have a whiteboard in my bedroom where I have [00:39:00] six or seven mantras written down for the year. But one of them is, I've done it before so I can do it again. So in my head I'm like, I've done this before. I haven't done six, but like the timeline I had to recover between those is similar if not even better this year.

So if I could do it, then why can't I do it now? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You've got that, that prior experience to kind of know that there's a path there for you is, is the record the goal with the Triple Crown this year then? Yeah, it is, but I am open to knowing that that's gonna be a lot harder with how I'm approaching it.

Mm-hmm. And also too and I'm not trying to throw shade on, on the time that Killian set at Bigfoot, but it was a different course last year and there was a, it was a fire, I believe, and they took out one of the bigger climbs at Bigfoot, like the record I set at Bigfoot, 50 hours. I said that in 2019, and no one's come close to that until last year.

And then I think all [00:40:00] three guys on the podium went under it significantly. Oh wow. Okay. Yeah. And that was a, they, they had changed the course. Yeah, and they counted it as the course record as well. Okay. So, yeah. Yeah, that's such a hard thing with the trail running stuff in general. 'cause these trails, I mean they change in, sometimes they just change in quality as like sometimes trails just get worked on and improved.

Yeah. But then also, like almost any year with a race that long, you probably are gonna have some sort of permitting, reroute or weather related detour or something. So, I mean, I don't even know how I feel about course records with, with all of that. Just in general. I mean, I get why people are excited by 'em.

I get why like it's also kind of for you, it's like you got this like extra incentive to target and put a time on the table to try to go after and things like that. And I totally get that, but yeah. Yeah. That's always. Find, like I wish there was a way for us to all get on the same page and quantify like what amount of deviation is [00:41:00] required before we just have an alternative course record versus standard course or something.

You know, something that would maybe still solidify like the variance between the two. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, the closest thing I've seen to that, and I still don't know how this could even be like official in the future, but you know, that documentary on Jeff Browning going after the double, the Western states and hard rock, like a combined time record.

Mm-hmm. Like when he did that, the year that he did it, there was an extra week between Hard Rock. And Western States. And so in the documentary it shows how Jeff and the, at the time, the current record holder between the two talked, and it was Nick, you remember his last name? He used to run for Ultra, he had a beard.

Oh, Clark, Nick Clark. Yeah, Nick Clark. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nick Clark had the record at the time. So Jeff and Nick sat down and they came up with this [00:42:00] like number that they both came up with, where it's yeah, with that extra week, if you run it under this time, then we can confidently say you have the record.

Okay. And that worked for them. But yeah, it's, it's hard to do that with everything else, you know? Mm-hmm. I, I also, I, I think it's also interesting too because as the sport grows, we have new innovations and we have just new learnings, essentially, like protocols that work better than what were done in the past that like basically move the sport forward in terms of how fast some of these races are getting finished in and things like that.

And on the other side of it, we also sort of have the media for the sport. Having to grow and adjust with this moving target. And one thing I always think about, especially if I'm paying attention to an event or something that I actually have a pretty good historical perspective of is like how cool it would be if like the media in ultra running got up to the same kind of quality as what we see with the NFL or the Tour de France and some of these bigger sports where here's an example, a recent example during the, the Black [00:43:00] Canyon a hundred K.

So one of the storylines for that was that the Sage candidate finished, I think seventh and he ran almost the identical time that he ran 10 years prior when he ran. When he won it and set the course record. Yeah. So people are like, oh, this is so cool. He comes back 10 years later, and we see the growth of the sport.

His course record in 2016 is now seventh place. Wow. Look at that. And it's at, at no point did it get mentioned that it was like 30 degrees warmer the day that he did that. So I'm like, and like he's, he's getting all sorts of compliments and stuff, but I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, man, I mean how much more impressive is it that he came back 10 years later and basically equaled his time?

Within the context of uh, you know, like everything that goes into like just being older, but then also like how impressive was his 2016 performance? If we're looking at that being good enough for seventh place now with all the growth in the sport with that much of a variance in [00:44:00] temperature. So it's just like, when do we get to a point where like the people that are.

On the broadcast or reporting about it after the fact and telling all the stories and things like that. Have that level of just understanding of everything that went into the sport and the history of the sport that they can kind of share a deeper storyline than what maybe first comes to mind.

Yeah, and I mean when it comes to media covers like that, I, it's, there's no, it's no coincidence you brought up Black Canyon, like Jamil and Ra Vipa is gonna be, they are the best at covering this stuff with media. So if anybody's gonna be able to touch on that kind of stuff in the future, it's them. Yeah.

Well, I mean it's, it's, it's kind of the same situation as what, uh, like I think we're way away from the live broadcasters being able to kind of give that sort of context because these are people with full-time jobs that are volunteering for the most part. And so it's like you're not gonna be sitting down for 40 hours prior to the race studying like every race in the past.

The way that Tom Brady does it is when he is getting ready [00:45:00] to broadcast one of the NFL football games. So it's like that expectation is pretty, pretty grand. But I think as we get further into the sport of the careers in the sport outside of the performance, like the podcast hosts and that sort of thing, you know, if they're making enough money where that can be their gig now they're incentivized to actually spend that time.

Knowing that sort of information and being able to kind of add that sort of color to the storytelling post, post-race, I think that'll be kind of cool because I think it, it gets there, it gets there with more growth, but it's just like kind of with the athletes where for a while, like everyone had a full-time job and maybe made some money on the side running ultras.

Then it kind of transitioned to oh, now there's enough here where technically I could probably quit my job. Then it became like a decent number of people are quitting their jobs or they're, they at least have all these different avenues to generate income around their lifestyle, whether it be building a brand on social media and, you know, recording podcasts like we are right now and, and, [00:46:00] and like being able to kind of.

Spend a little bit more time on the specifics than they would've been able to in the past. 'cause they're not going to a totally different job, uh, on the side of it all. So, yeah. Sorry, that was kind of a little bit of a tangent, but No, that's, are you saying you think it's gonna get to that point or you hope it gets to that point?

I hope it does. Yeah. I don't think it's there yet. I would say the media is a step behind the growth on the athlete's side, especially when we're getting into the more like the tombs of the world, the western states of the world, the golden ticket races of the world. I think like the growth we've seen on the athlete side has exceeded the growth we've seen on the media side to the degree that if the media can catch up to it, we get a lot more like deep analysis of some of these kinds of races and what they actually mean.

Yeah. Yeah. I dunno if I have anything to say, but I agree with you and I mean, that's not, I'm not trying to disrespect that. I think it's, oh yeah. I think it's something where the opportunities to do that as a full-time [00:47:00] possession profession are probably lagging behind a little bit with respect to the number of professional athletes there are out there now.

And you know, there's only so many of those media outlets. It might be something, 'cause like I think of, I'll use the NFL as another example. I'm a huge Green Bay Packers fan. There's dozens and dozens and dozens of just YouTube channels that are basically the full-time job of the person is to just give you every little ounce of detail you could ever imagine.

And then some, yeah. So it's not even, it's not even having just one that does it that well, it's, there's like a bunch to pick from. So you can actually get I like this person's personality and their delivery and I'm gonna get the information from them because of it. 'cause I'm gonna get that same level of detail. That would be cool with ultra running.

So yeah, I'm a Rams fan. And there's the same thing for the Rams too. Yep. But yeah yeah, it's, that would be, I mean, there was a time, like I tried getting into podcasting and I even think I had you on my podcasts. Yeah, yeah. But like, when I was trying to get into it, I did [00:48:00] have this idea where I was like, how cool would it be for like, me to show up at races with podcast equipment, go out on the trail and you know, interview people who are willing to be interviewed and do essentially you know, reporting like the NFL does, but do it in podcast format at the race.

But I was like, mm-hmm. I can't, I don't have the money and time to invest into doing something like that. So maybe somebody will come up with that one day and do it. But yeah, I, I mean, and like I said, I think if anybody can do it, it's gonna be ARA Vipa and mm-hmm. And I feel like they're, they're getting closer every year to being able to do something like that.

Yeah. Yeah. Ara Vipa and Jamil, they're, they're kind of that spot where it's like. There Jamil thinks enough about what, what's the next thing that I should invest in now? And he's also, abi is big enough now where they can operate at a loss if they need to, if he thinks it's important enough to build out versus yeah, you know, like you, like you, you start doing that now all of a sudden you gotta start looking at, well how [00:49:00] many coaching clients can I take on?

How many races can I do? And you start having you run outta time essentially. Yeah. How big of a loan do I need to take? Right? Yeah, yeah. Go, go in for a business loan, Hey, I've got this idea, I'm just gonna be standing on the side of the use my, uh, home equity line of credit that I have open right now to, to fund that.

Oh man. But yeah, I mean I think it'll be cool 'cause I think that stuff will grow too. 'cause it is one of those things where it is getting easier to just create content in general. So, you know, who knows? We'll grow in some shape or form. Whether it does it the direction I want it to or not is, uh, anyone's guess.

But it'll be fun to watch either way. Well, if you're listening, Jamil, make it happen. Yeah.

Cool. So. One other, like how much more time do we have, we got about maybe 10, 15 minutes. No, I could probably do 20 to 25. Okay, cool. Right on. Yeah. I, one thing I did wanna jump into you too is just nutrition. Because I think that with which [00:50:00] you're doing the multi-day stuff, the 200 milers and things like that is just such a different type of format than what we would typically see with any sort of sports performance and things like that.

I mean, I've had you on in the past and we've talked in. Quite a bit in the past about low carbohydrate diets, high carbohydrate diets, and just where their utility may or may not be. Are you still doing low carb or have you had a different approach this next time around? What's the nutrition strategy going on in Mike McKnight land?

Uh, I, I mean, compared to most athletes, I think I'm still low carb. Like I'd say a high carb day for me is like two 50 to 300 grams of carbs, which from what I understand is like half of what a lot of other people are doing. Mm-hmm. I don't know. In your opinion, does that still count as low carb? Yeah. I mean your workload is probably what would drive that answer, like the higher your energy out within that 20 hours a week of training.

Yeah. So I mean, you, you, you would at the very least be at the [00:51:00] very, very like low end of what the recommendations would be for that. So I mean, I would consider it local. And you said that's like the highest you're getting? Three. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. I mean I, yeah, absolutely. I think you probably would be, I mean, I think at the end of the day, like technically, if fat is your primary macronutrient and it's higher than carbohydrate, you're at least doing a lower carbohydrate than fat.

So you're kind of at least directionally heading that way. Yeah. But it sounds like maybe you're just a little more relaxed with the carbohydrate intake, but not to the extreme that you're like formulating high carbs to the same degree that you see like the David ROEs of the world doing. Yeah, I can't do that.

No. Yeah, I, I mean, yeah, I've been all over the place. Like I was crazy strict keto for a while. I dabbled in carnivore for a little bit. I dabbled okay. Sunday, Wednesday, and Thursday are my keto days. And then those other days are like, I've dabbled similarly to your question earlier. What was my answer where I said, I'm like, water, I'm kind of fluid with Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's how I am with [00:52:00] nutrition too. So, I think it was actually on your podcast where I talked about how I can't eat just one or two Skittles. If I take a bite, I'm eating the whole bag. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I, I've gotten to the point where one, yeah, I can have a handful of Skittles if I want and then I can continue on with my day.

Or two. If I want a whole bag of Skittles, I'm gonna eat it and I'm not gonna feel bad about it. So I definitely matured. I would say I've matured a lot more with my nutritional approach where I'm not so strict. And I mean, I probably had a healthy relationship with food where I would overly obsess like, oh, how bad is it for me to eat this brownie? Like I'd sit there and think about it for 15 minutes. Yeah, I do it. I'd feel guilty for two hours. So I'm past that point. Now, if I had to say anything, like I am, I'm very clean and low carb Whole Foods approach, like 80% of the time to 90% of the time.

But I do allow myself two or [00:53:00] three meals a week where I can kind of have whatever I want. Mm-hmm. So like tonight after this big hard bike ride, like it's, it's a hard bike ride. I rode with a group that really pushed the pace for two and a half hours. After that, I'm probably gonna get a burrito, which a year and a half ago, I would lose. You'd been thinking about that the next day. Yeah, I'd lose sleep over it. And I'm not joking. So I am still a low carb, but I am a lot less strict about what I avoid and stuff. But I will say from a racing standpoint too, all this has happened ever since hopping on the bike a year ago, hurting my back.

So that's another positive that came from that injury. 'cause the great thing about being on a bike is you can eat anything like, yeah. Without having stomach issues, it's great. Like I did a 300 mile race on a bike with my crew, it's kind of like bad water where my crew can just stop in a vehicle every couple miles and crew me on the side of the road.

There was, once they handed me out the window, a gas station burrito and [00:54:00] sat up, took my hands off the bars and I ate this burrito while I was biking and I was totally fine. We're like rewind Two or three years ago if I came into an aid station and I hadn't been eating 'cause I was having stomach issues, but I'd come into an aid station and they're like, what do you have for me?

And they say, well we have breakfast burritos. And in my head I'd be like, oh, that sounds really good. But then I'd be like, I don't do gluten, like that's bad. It's gonna make me inflamed. Mm-hmm. So I wouldn't eat that. Whereas like at the Monster I had stomach issues from the heat, it hit a hundred degrees one day.

So it was really hard for me to eat solid food. No joke for five hours. I lived off of Baja Blast Mountain Dew, where again, like three years ago I would've avoided that because I try to avoid sugar from soda, high fruit, dust, corn syrup or whatever. But at that moment I was like, I need fuel.

Food's not working. That Mountain Dew sounds amazing. Whatever, I'm gonna drink it. So that was a very long-winded, winded [00:55:00] answer to you. I am still low carb, but I'm not as strict with my choices and I have no issues going high carb a day or two if that's what I want to do. Yeah, that's that, that's interesting.

A couple things that kind of popped up in my head when you were explaining that, like when I had David Rohan last, he mentioned something about them, as people are getting, I mean there's this whole hyper carbohydrate fueling stuff that's kind of going around now too. And he said that when people are kind of like where you're coming from matters, because if it's someone who's just been pretty open to having a lot of carbohydrates and then just maybe haven't structured it in a way where they can hit some of those high numbers. That's one thing. But then you get these scenarios where somebody was maybe a little bit phobic of carbohydrate and they had all these like ideas in their head about what kind of negatives it could happen.

And they also have this psychosomatic response. So like they see the Baja Mountain Dew, the Baja Blast, mountain Dew, and they're just like, that's gonna wreck my gut. And then they have it and sure enough their gut gets [00:56:00] wrecked. Oh, so there's also a psychological flip switch that needs to flip.

Where now all of a sudden they're not looking at that as such a problem and they're looking at that as a solution and they can take in more now. So there's like that whole aspect of it too, which is just fascinating to think about that there's that much of a potential kind of placebo effect rolling with that kind of thing.

Oh yeah, the brain. That's the other thing I've learned this past year, how powerful our brain is for better and for worse. Yeah. Like my back issue, this is a side tangent, but I read this book and it's called Fixing Your Back, the Mind Body Connection. Mm-hmm. And hopefully somebody that's listening will find benefit with this.

'cause I've had a lot of people message me to see what I've done with my, for my back. Like people that have back issues that are looking at surgery and don't want to, but like this book it essentially implies that there are a lot of back issues and some other issues. He talks about I think it was left shoulder pain and a few other stuff like are related to psychological things.

He says he sees that in a lot of [00:57:00] athletes, like in preparation for a big event, like their back will flare up and it'll stick around for so long or whatever. And so he's essentially saying that like the pressure to perform or associating back pain with a certain lift. Like you'll hear people hear people say, I can't do deadlift because that messes up my back, or whatever.

Mm-hmm. Like this doctor says except for rare instances, there should be nothing that causes chronic back pain essentially for the rest of your life. And so as I was looking back on last year, like my back pain flared up. Just as I was starting to go to therapy for some childhood trauma and also flared up just before Coca Donut, and that's kind of like my white well of a race where like I have a lot of issues and I feel a lot of pressure to do well at that race because I haven't done well at it yet.

And so you know, I'm convinced now that my back flared up from those issues and then it stuck around the rest of the year because I was so hyper-focused on it. And I haven't resolved, or I haven't resolved that childhood trauma because he is [00:58:00] saying that back pain can stick around where essentially if you're trying to feel something and your brain's I don't wanna deal with that emotional response, I'm gonna create a physical response to distract.

Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So essentially after I read that book, I was like, it it, it says if you're like for back pain, if your back pain comes back, like you need to stop as quiz, you quick as you can and be like, okay, what emotion is my brain trying to suppress right now and distract me? And every time I've done that, like within minutes, my back pain goes away.

Really. So, yeah. Yeah. And so people wanna know why I didn't get surgery. That's honestly the biggest thing that I did before my surgery was I, I, I, I, I tried fixing my brain essentially. Oh, really? So that's, that's what kind of had you cancel the surgery and decide, all right, I'm gonna do this non-invasively.

Yeah. Every time my back flared up, I would just stop, trying to figure out what emotional response my brain was trying to suppress right now. And I'd usually identify it within five to 10 minutes and my back pain would get away. [00:59:00] Wow. That's incredible. Yeah, going back to the food scenario too, like I strongly believe that like I, like for the past, when did I go keto 2017.

So for the past nine years, like I've been like, gluten makes me puffy, it makes me swell, high fructose corn syrup, it makes me, it's bad for my gut. So yeah, like I used to think that way and I used to have those kinds of responses. But ever since last year where I've been a lot more relaxed and chill, it hasn't happened.

Like I can go eat a burrito now and I don't like it, I would legit gain six to seven pounds in water weight. If I had some kind of pizza or something with flour and gluten in it, I would weigh five to six pounds. But now, like last week after my bike ride, I had a burrito and nothing happened. So yeah, really, I agree with David Roche.

A lot of it. Not all of it, but a lot of it can be tied to our perceived reality or whatever of, and maybe the stress that comes with it too. 'cause Yeah, [01:00:00] unnecessary stress can, or just more stress than you're normally tolerating can lead to some of that stuff too. So. Yeah. That's interesting. You're stressing about the stuff that's supposed to fuel you, right, right.

You're already like calorically, you're in a calor calorie deficit, you're, your body needs nutrients, it needs calories, carbs, proteins fast to recover. Like you're already having these issues and trying to recover and if you throw the emotional response of worrying about certain foods on top of that, that's probably gonna slow down your recovery for sure.

Yeah, no, it makes sense. Are you doing anything differently in race fueling, like at Arizona Monster, or are you just eating whatever looks good or do you have a protocol that you tend to lean on? This is the protocol I've always tried to do, but like for the first. 12 or so, 12 to 15 hours. I primarily do like gels and like liquid carbs.

Mm-hmm. And then usually for me, that's how long it takes for me to be able to start, like coming into an aid station and having some [01:01:00] meatballs, having a burrito or whatever. But yeah, I primarily would stick to gels and, and liquid calories between eight stations. For the first 15 hours I would come into eight stations and eat a bunch of calories with food.

And then for the rest of the race, it was kind of based off of how I was feeling in the moment. Like I said, there was a section where I seriously just had a hop, blast, mountain Dew for hours. But yeah, then once, once the sun went down and I was good, I was able to start eating some, some other whole foods and, and carb based foods.

I think like part of me hopes that this continues, but with these multi-day, I think so much more of it is just making sure you're getting in as much food as you can tolerate versus it having to be like this precise amount of carbohydrate versus fat versus protein. Obviously that stuff matters to a degree, and carbohydrates, the thing you probably have the most immediate need to replace even in these longer races to the precision that you see at a marathon or you know, some of these more, right. Exactly. Where it's okay, yeah, [01:02:00] maybe the difference between me going from 80 to a hundred grams is going from third place to second place. That's a lot of precision. And I kind of like the idea of just like, all right, well I just gotta eat a lot, and you know, maybe that's a burrito.

Maybe that's Baja blast. Maybe that's the gel. Yeah. If there's any race where that doesn't matter as much, I'd say it's a 200 plus mile race. Right? Yeah. We just need calories. I mean, I don't know how accurate this is, but my, my, my choros said I burned over 40,000 calories for, for 82 hours. Yeah. So yeah.

You need calories. You do. You do. Yeah. And I, I actually wonder, I don't want to get into this too deep because I know you gotta get going, but there's all this research that Herman Pon has been sort of pushing forward in the last few years that just looks at. Your physical activity level and how much you can actually maintain over time.

'cause there's probably a limiter in terms of just how much can you actually digest and process to [01:03:00] the degree where it, it puts a cap onto your activity level and they put it kind of at 2.5 times your, your basal metabolic rate is essentially where most humans are gonna cap out at. And then you get some extremes.

Like I think Killian Jones wrote about this, where he's like. Somewhere above three on average. And, wait, wait, wait. So when you say, when you say cap out, like cap out in what kind of duration or, so that's a great question, but duration as in like, how long can can you sustain this not for just a few days, but for like months and months and months before things just start to kind of collapse upon themselves, which at that point you could start making an argument like, what's actually breaking down there?

You know, 'cause that's an insane amount of workload if you're going, you know, like three x plus your, your basal metabolic rate day in and day out. Right. But for you, like with Arizona Monster, I think you can. You're gonna burn. I mean, your body needs to burn that energy to move you forward.

But when we think about just like limiters to performance, you know, [01:04:00] digestibility and energy out could be a limiter when you're trying to compress it all into a few days, like what you're doing. And I think one of the ways to try to move that push that back is by being able to take in a lot so your body's not necessarily sensing as big of an energy scarcity.

And that may go as far as into are you consuming foods enough during your high activity points during the day and your training leading up and kind of training your system to be able to kind of expect and know what to do with those fuel sources and kind of keep that engine burning versus making modifications to try to slow it down.

Who did you say, uh, did that research? Herman Pon is the guy who's kind of, uh, kind of the name on the, the name and face on a lot of it. Okay. I'll have to look. If you could send that to. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll send you, Killian wrote an article on it after Western States that was really interesting and kind of got into some of that.

'cause they did a study on him to look and see 'cause you know, Western states, he was basically like, [01:05:00] they call it your PAL or your physical activity level. And his pal was like, I think 10 X for Western states. So like that one day he could withstand a high pal, but like he wouldn't be able to do that indefinitely.

Gotcha. Or for a long period of time before. And again, you know, you get into the territory of physically other things breaking down too, other than just your digestion. But for us to think that like we have this unlimited ability to digest infinite amounts of calories is there's, there's gotta be a cap right before, like we're sending this stuff through our digestive system.

At what point does the digestive system just no longer be able to actually take that nutrient and do something with it? And if your physical activity levels are exceeding that, eventually it's gonna pull you back because you know, you're just not getting enough fuel to do what you're trying to do. I wonder if there's a way for us to figure out what that cap is for sure.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you guys, like you are the ones that give us a view into the outer range, so Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's interesting. Like these, these [01:06:00] multi, they can't be healthy for you, these multi-day races, like the amount of sleep that you're losing, like you're eating junk for three plus days as well, right?

Yeah, yeah. Like they can't be that healthy for you. I mean, and the other thing too is like the amount of muscle wasting that you have in these races mm-hmm. I don't know how many, like I'm sure you've read a study about that, but like this, the, the monster, I mean obviously it's not all muscle, but like when I started the Monster, I was 182 pounds, and right now I'm 174 pounds.

Uh, okay. And like I know and this is combined with fatigue, I'm sure, but like at the gym, like I'm lifting 10 to 20 pounds lighter on a lot of the stuff that I was doing before that race. So like mm-hmm. Yeah, like a lot of that and you were talking about that earlier too. What withers away essentially, and you, you do lose some muscle in these races too.

I mean, it would be really interesting to have a DEXA scan before and after. You'd have to get, the hard part is there's so much swelling and fluid [01:07:00] retention and weird stuff that would skew those results. I'm sure you'd almost have to wait a few days to do it, but then at that point you've possibly skewed the results of what you actually lost, because now you've had three days to eat as much as you want.

Yeah. Yeah, the swelling's incredible. I hate it, yeah. But after I finished the Monster, we hung out at a friend's house for four days and she had a swimming pool, and I was wearing my shirt out by the pool because I was so self-conscious of how watery my stomach and everything looked.

It's so crazy. Yeah, yeah. Everything swells. It's like you'd think oh yeah like your, your, your chest and stomach shouldn't swell. Right. It's like I'm not really yeah, there's not a lot of impact being driven towards those areas, but like everything kind of does to some degree. So yeah.

That's good. Sing stuff. It's crazy how just existing, like, contributes to that swelling. 'cause like I would go to bed, I would elevate my legs, I would wake up and look in the mirror and I'd be like, okay. Yeah, my, my swelling's kind of going away. I look kind of normal today. [01:08:00] And then two hours later I'd come back and see myself in the mirror again.

And it was all like twice as big, just being awake and existing. Brought it all back instantly. Yeah. Yeah. It lasts like four days too. Yeah. Fluid, fluid retention stuff is pretty crazy when you, when you see the extremes of it. So. Yeah. Yeah. But like you said, I mean like, we're, it's, there's some degree of living for a good time, not a long time probably with the, the multi-day stuff or at least taken a little bit off the back end.

But you know. You gotta do what you wanna, what you wanna do with your life. So yeah, there's that side of it too. Not all of us are in good enough shape to set a hundred mile world record. Like Well, I mean, that's why I stick to the, you know, the single day stuff. I'm trying to live a long time too.

Yeah. You're probably doing a lot better than I am. We'll see. You never know. Maybe you'll be like the person who likes to smoke a cigarette every day, has a glass of wine and lives to 120. Alright, we'll try it. Maybe that's where [01:09:00] my nutrition is going, you know? Yeah, right, right. Who knows? Who knows Gluten Now I might start smoking with your friends in Austin, or not Austin, Matt Johnson.

Yeah. Or Yeah, it's bad that I know who you're talking about when you Yeah. I'm actually coaching Matt right now. He's doing, uh, Oh, cool. Texas Iron Man, so, oh, nice. He's, he's coming up here quick. He's in great shape right now, so it'll be fun to see what he can do out there. He is hilarious. He is a funny guy, but another one who's maybe not here for a long time, but for a fun time, for sure.

And I'm sure he is totally okay with that, which is great. Well, I should probably let you get out on the bike. Mike, it's been awesome to catch up and hear kinda what you're up to, what you're planning to do. Before I let you go, if you wanna let listeners know where they can find you, if they wanna follow on websites or social media or anything like that.

Uh, yeah, just Mike J. McKnight on Instagram. I don't have my own personal website, but the website that I'm working on building for my 200 mile race is great. Or sorry, [01:10:00] western adventures.com. And there is some stuff on there about me as well. But yeah, if there's any listeners out there that wanna do a 200 mile race, first year, 200 mile race, there's one in August that you're more than welcome to come do.

You're still looking for, you got room in there. Plenty of room. Okay. Well yeah, go. These two hundreds are hard to get into sometimes. Listeners sign up for Mike's race. He's the guy, he's gonna do it right. Well, I mean, I think there was a 200 a few years ago where the first year didn't go too well.

There's a lot. Okay. So people are skeptical. Yeah, and I even think with Mammoth you know, I think they got a fair amount last year just because it was Tim Tolson and he's already established himself and Hillary has a great following, but mm-hmm. I'm pretty sure they sold out really quick this year after people saw the success of it last year.

Okay. I'm not like I, I got approved for 350 people and we have like just a little bit over 20 oh really? I'm not expecting to get a lot. We need to find that corner of Ultra Runners who, they want the adventure, [01:11:00] they want the uncertainty, they want a mistake to happen at the age station so they can problem solve and show how tough they are.

Yes. If that's you, go do it. Put it up on social media then so it gets promoted and the next year it sells out and all that stuff. Inaugural year, you'll get a sweet belt buckle. You're probably gonna get high quality food since I don't have to feed hundreds of people. You know, you might get steak and loaded potatoes, who knows?

That's great, that's a great point. You're gonna get one-on-one attention at every eight stations. Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. But yeah, that's, uh, that's how you can find me. Awesome. Well thanks Mike. I'll put that stuff in the show notes too. So if anyone's looking to jump in something in August, plenty of time, right?

We had plenty of time till August. They can put a 200 miler on their calendar. Heck yeah, let's do it. Right on. Appreciate it, Mike. Yeah, thanks Zach