Episode 481: Multi-day & Backyard Ultras | Mark Dowdle

Mark Dowdle specializes in long multi-day and backyard ultramarathons. He shares his experience coming from a non-running background. We discuss what makes multi-day ultras and backyard ultras unique and how the variables impacting performance shift compared to shorter ultras and endurance events. 

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Timestamps:

0:00:00 Episode Highlight Reel

0:01:10 Podcast Intro And Giveaways

0:02:40 Multi Day Ultra Fascination

0:04:59 Basics Versus Overthinking

0:10:40 Specialization In Ultra Running

0:13:44 Backyard Debate With Charlie

0:18:01 Molly Seidel In Ultra

0:21:08 Training For A Backyard

0:24:46 The Unknown Ending Factor

0:26:45 Finding A Strong Why

0:30:46 Opportunity Cost Decisions

0:33:08 Beer Mile Side Quest

0:35:52 Goggins Arc And Motivation

0:39:28 Athletic Background Origins

0:49:04 Acute Versus Dull Pain

0:51:54 Narrowing Focus

0:52:34 Backyard Mindset

0:54:08 Loop Strategy Basics

0:55:46 Flexible Planning

0:56:59 Learning Sleep Naps

01:00:45 Sleep Habits Advantage

01:05:05 Fueling Real Food

01:13:01 Macros and Training Fuel

01:17:20 Upcoming Races Plans

01:20:19 Public Speaking Goals

01:22:11 Backyard Logistics

01:23:06 New Race Formats

01:25:24 Weather and Competition

01:28:56 Wrap Up

Episode Transcript:

[00:00:00] Awesome. Mark, thanks for coming on the show, Zach. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, man, I'm excited to talk to you. I would say I've gotten more and more interested in kind of the multi-day stuff the last couple of years. Not necessarily as someone who wants to do one, but I'm not, I haven't ruled it out either, but it's just such a, I think, a different aspect of this massive umbrella of, uh, of ultra Marathon with respect to like the variables that go into success.

And I really find that part of the sport fascinating. So as a fan, talking to people like yourself, or I've had, um, I've had, uh. I've had a few multi-day people on in the last year, including Phil Gore and Sam Harvey, Meg Eckert. So it's just kind of been fun to dive into that stuff. So I think you're just like another, [00:01:00] another example of uh, kind of tapping into everything that goes into these sorts of things and, and your story's actually fairly unique too.

Yeah, and it's interesting 'cause you know, like we were just chatting before you were on the life of Stride and you were talking about how there, like Phil and Harvey and Sam Harvey, um, these guys are pioneers in basically the backyards because there is so much unknown and you know, we're so, I feel like we're so new in the backyard specifically that, you know, we haven't broken five days, but you think about 10 years from now.

Like, this thing could go on for 10 plus days, you know, it could double depending on how we figure out the different variables. I've also noticed that you, you really do, and I appreciate this because I'm not this way, so I learn a lot from you, but you need out over all the little variables and [00:02:00] all the little details, and I'm very much the opposite where I'm like, it feels right.

I'm not gonna change it, that type of thing. So hopefully, hopefully I don't throw you for a loop for the lack of like, scientific approach or attention to detail that I bring to running, but I think it, you know, it, it adds a different perspective. Yeah. I mean that's, I find that, that topic in, in of itself really fun too, because one question I'll oftentimes ask guests too is just about their training or their nutrition approach, and.

Like I, the most recent example, this probably had Rachel Intricate on who's just, you know, on absolutely crushing the multi-day, 200 plus mile stuff and, and other things too. She was just, uh, third at, uh, the third on like a really, really tight throwdown between the podiums that include Courtney Dewal at Ante 120 K this weekend.

So it's like, she's doing everything at this point, and I was asking her about training and she's like, oh, you know, I just kind of go out and run and yeah, like, like I asked her about [00:03:00] intervals and she's like, well, sometimes I run a little harder than other times. But I mean, I think that highlights it too, because like.

I think the things that make Rachel really good at the stuff that she does are her ability to still do the basics really, really well. Sure. The big movers really, really well. And, but not overcomplicate it to the degree where now it becomes paralyzing. 'cause you can definitely get paralyzed by the variables.

I know for me, I've, I talk a lot about all the, like the real kind of nuts and bolts stuff and I like to geek out about that. But there are things that I will definitely just say like, alright, I know that this is an influential piece, but like, intuition is gonna be a net positive here because if I start overemphasizing this tiny little thing, probably gonna come at the expense of something that's gonna be bigger and then I'm just gonna burn mental energy that doesn't need to be burnt on it.

Sure. And, and, and that's the balance in my opinion. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this too, of like, I see stress as a [00:04:00] huge, huge, huge. Variable that I don't think enough people talk about, whereas I could, you know, there was a time in my life where I was writing out every meal that I, I ate that day to like count the calories just to make sure that I was getting the right nutrition for the output that I was burning that day.

And I had no fun doing it. It caused more stress to my life. That stress, I felt, was more detrimental than the benefit of getting all of the nutrients I needed that day or just knowing that I got all of that. And so I, I sort of take that approach to a lot of the training that I do where if I can think less about.

The details and just know that, you know, my training in running my training, in lifting, my nutrition is headed in the direction I want it to go from a net positive standpoint, then I feel really confident about that because I'm [00:05:00] not stressing over all the little details. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You can make perfect the enemy of good enough in a lot of cases where like if you're doing something good enough where you've extracted the value out of it, if you try to optimize beyond that, I think it bleeds into other things where, like you said, then all of a sudden, let's say you did something good enough and you are obsessing over the fact that it could have been more perfect and now all of a sudden you're hitting a hard part, like in a training session, and instead of pushing through just because you're like, I can do this.

You're thinking, oh, well, it's because I didn't perfect that other thing and Right. You're giving yourself an out almost to some degree. If you get too into that and you get to races too, and good enough. To me, I like being good enough and making sure I'm doing all the things I need to do. I learned about that on race day.

And so if I'm struggling in a certain area where I'm in the middle of a race and I'm like, Hmm, like this is really coming up, then I'll just have more focus and intention on that in the next training cycle that I have. But I [00:06:00] like to see races as that opportunity to say, Hey, this is an opportunity for me to learn.

I walk into all my races as like, yes, this is a competition, but more than anything, it's just an opportunity to learn where I'm at. Maybe I didn't do enough in one area, or maybe I did, and we'll figure that out. And I love that process of putting myself in the arena and saying, let's find out. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And well, I mean that's what your story, I think caught my eye too as you sort of got into, if from my pers you can correct me if I'm wrong. Sure. But it looked like you kind of got into the, at least the backyard style of racing with just this idea of like, all right, well, we'll see how this goes.

And then it sort of just kind of compounded on itself to the degree where now, you know, you're being looked at as someone who's going to hopefully compete with the best in the world at this. When we get to the, the, the more. Highly populated, I guess, versions of that type of a, an event. Yeah, I mean it's, [00:07:00] it's an interesting, interesting mindset and it's just one that I'm, I think is necessary.

If we go, go back to kind of what you were talking about before where we have like these pioneers in the sport now that are really laying the foundation for what is gonna work and not work and really doing the hard stuff, the trial and error stuff, where we don't have really any solid research to really lean on in many cases or even any sort of weighting of the variables that would point us in a direction of where to spend the majority of your time or where, where.

Good enough is fine and you don't need to necessarily optimize beyond that. So I always like to focus on that because I think it's like, it's just one of those things where the sport keeps growing. I don't wanna see someone like you or someone like Phil Gore or Sam Harvey be kind of left in the back burner as we see like your performances get outdone because a lot of it's gonna be outdone based on what you did.

Not necessarily because you wouldn't have been able to compete given the right circumstances or whatever. Modern advances come along the way as we improve. Yeah, and it's [00:08:00] interesting. I think this has really been, at least over the last year, the more that I've had, the more that I've liked to focus on.

Ultra running is not just one umbrella of a single sport, but many different sports within one. There's a, a friend of mine, a guy who does a podcast with, we're both, well, we both were lifting together for a period of time until he moved out to Salt Lake City. His name's Alex Proctor. He just came in eighth place at Big Alta.

He won the Buffalo Run 50 miler and set the course record for that a year ago. And he's a few years younger than me. A guy that I think one you should have on the podcast, but also if you're like looking at who are gonna be the next big names in the sport, I, I really think this is gonna be that type of guy.

But we started this podcast because he is trail running. Speed going for those a [00:09:00] hundred milers, those 50 milers, and I'm more like a backyard ultra adventure running from St. Paul to Minnesota with a stroller and like that is my lane. And I look at, you know, the stuff he's doing. And I would never be able to just step into that.

It would take a dramatic shift in my training. And he would say the same thing about the backyards, where it's, it just takes a different mindset and approach. And not that I don't think either of us could, it would just be a totally different style of training and work that would go into it. And so I appreciate that.

Like I think. You know, obviously we've had, uh, conversations recently about like, what is Elite Is a backyard ultra runner, an elite runner compared to a Jim Walsey that I don't even think you can compare those two on the same, uh, like standard or like a Killian [00:10:00] Coth, you know, 200 miler. Is he considered an elite runner because the gyms, or even, you know, I know Courtney has done a ton of the 200 milers, or, or several, but it's like, I don't know if you can even compare them because they're two different athletes and the woman you brought up, what's her name again?

Who? Just Rachel Kin. She's the one where I'm like, okay, she's done a number of different races where it's like, okay, you could see how she fits into the whole narrative. But I think so few athletes are doing that, or maybe I'm just not paying attention enough where it's like, yeah, the, it's, it's starting to really branch out into entirely different sports.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is. I think it's just gonna be like any other sport where you start to have to specialize in order to compete. Where it's like if you, if you just wanna participate, you can do a wide variety of stuff, but if you wanna actually end up on podiums or break records and things like that, you're probably gonna need to have a little bit more of a narrow focus [00:11:00] where, where at least the variables of importance are kind of weighted similarly.

I mean, one of the ways I think about this is you had a very viral Instagram reel where, and a little bit of an online debate with, uh, Charlie Lawrence, who's been on the show before too. And, and I think that kind of like you and Charlie, in my opinion, kind of map this pretty well. 'cause Charlie's like.

I think he's describing himself at the moment as like Marathon 200 k with aspirations to go a little longer later in his career when he's maybe extracted whatever he is trying to get outta that marathon to a hundred K type distance. Yeah. And you're kind of coming in from the other end where you're like, okay.

Like it's gotta get into that second day before I'm really motivated and interested in it. Yeah. So you called out Charlie because Charlie maybe indirectly called out the sport of Backyard Ultra on another podcast. Yeah. And, and it was kind of funny to me 'cause it, it was, it was, it just highlighted what I've been thinking a lot about lately, which is, is there some sort of.

Uniqueness [00:12:00] about an individual skillset that could make them just great at anything in ultra Marathon? Or is it gonna be more of a, alright, this variable's incredibly important and if you're not at this level here, you won't compete. But some, as soon as we move over to this other side, that variable's been lessened to a large enough degree where it's no longer a primary advantage the way it would be.

And I think that's where I'm leaning, where I think the example I used on your, your Instagram reel was, uh, if you look at something like the 50 K or the a hundred K or the Marathon, there's a very high bar of just running efficiency that you have to clear to be able to compete. Yep. We move into something that's gonna take four or five plus days, now all of a sudden.

The bar you need to clear from a running efficiency standpoint comes so far down. Yep. That one, and this kinda goes back to what we were talking about before, where good enough versus perfect. It's like for someone like you, you could try to maximize your 5K potential [00:13:00] or even your marathon potential, and somewhere along the way you're likely going to pass what's necessary from that sort of a training variable towards, it may start competing with things that are gonna be more important, like something like durability.

Yep. Or sleep deprivation practices and things like that. Or even just gut, like, I eat every hour no matter what. I'm putting something in my body and I'm also sleeping. Most sleep loops. Like on my most recent one, we went 68 hours. I was, I probably took a five minute nap for 40 of those loops. And, and so I, I mean that's kind of my whole thing with the Charlie Lawrence thing is like, I have.

Total respect for what he does. I could not do what he did. At least I don't think I could do it, it would have to take a shift in training where I would even have to think about possibly doing that. But personally I just don't think I could. But with him it was like the running [00:14:00] efficiency is so low on the priority list of being good at Backyard Ultra.

And my whole thing is to hold myself to a standard of if I say I'm gonna do something or I say something that's gonna be easy, then I better be willing to put action behind that. And that was what that was like. My whole thing with that is like, this is, this is a cool science experiment because you say you can walk right into it.

You say you don't need to shift your training. Let's find out. The table is set, the storyline is there. Let's go find out. Let's figure out if the last five years of work that I've done is dedicated towards Backyard Ultra. It is meaningless because, you know, I was talking about it with my strength coach this morning.

I'm like, I feel like I almost have way more to risk because if I lose in that, then I'm basically saying the last five years of my work is nothing compared to what an elite runner is doing. And for him it's basically [00:15:00] he just has to raise his hand and say, that was harder than I thought it was. I am gonna train differently for it the next time.

Mm-hmm. So I just, you know, that's that, that's my perspective on that where it's like, okay, if running efficiency is such a priority in elite running, let's test if that theory matters for the Backyard Ultra. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, another way to kind of look at this, I think that is, is a little. More, it's actually in motion right now, if you have Molly Seidel entering the ultra space, the trail, ultra space.

And you know, she's a bronze medalist at the Olympic marathon. And it wasn't, that wasn't like necessarily. I think she surprised a lot of people that day, but when she got that bronze medal, she also had a huge background of success like world class, national class, and track and field.

So it's like there's no shortage of just, I have the natural genetic predisposition to be successful at a world class [00:16:00] level within Eur, like Olympic distance during endurance sports. Sure. And when she decided to do Black Canyon, my thought was, well, if she goes in there and just destroys everybody, that's gonna be like, okay, well the sport of ultra running on the trail side when we're looking at like the sub hundred mile distance.

Sort of has a reality check to digest, which is that we haven't gotten anywhere near the, just like the natural ability coming into this sport to be able to suggest that this is different enough that would require some unique skillset. And Molly did quite well, but she didn't go and blow everyone out of the water.

She was fourth place. I think she'll continue to improve and, and if she takes it super seriously and enjoys it, we'll probably become one of the better, kind of at least a hundred mile and below ultra runners on the trail side. But does, I think, show that this, it's a work in progress and you gotta do the, you gotta put in the work, you gotta do things.

It's unlikely that you're gonna show up with an unspecific skillset and have that just get, [00:17:00] just override the current crop of people in a good portion of the sport now. And I think we could even start including backyards and 200 plus milers at this point. I don't, I think it's gonna be rare that we see someone who's.

Optimized in something that has competing variables, enough competing variables coming in and just, you know, doing it overnight without putting in a training, a training block to, to really optimize for it. And maybe even taking some swings at some actual events too, so they can really work through some of those trial and error things that are still being answered by, by all of you in these, in these longer events.

What would you, if you were to train for a backyard, based on the information that you've gathered, what would you do differently than you're doing now? Yeah, I would, I would do a lot of stuff differently. And this is why I think I made a comment, uh, 'cause someone, someone like this was that that reel was pretty viral.

So there was stuff I kept getting like ping for, like weeks after. And I think someone asked me at one point, 'cause I'd made a comment there, but I had, I put in no suggestion that I would be [00:18:00] interested in doing one. And I think he asked like, well, why don't you wanna get in on this? And I was thinking about it and I was just like, well, it's not that I don't wanna get in on it, but.

If someone, like if you had challenged me, had you been like, alright Zach, I wanna see how your flat hundred mile specialization pairs up with my multi-day specialization. Two weeks, let's go. Yeah. I would be like, I'm not betting on myself in that scenario because the way I look at it is I would probably need, if I want like, and this is, this is bare minimum, I would think I would need six to eight months ahead of time to really kind of dial in the things that I think would probably be my biggest hurdles to get over, to get anywhere near a point where I would be still out there with the likes of you, Sam Harvey.

Fill gore. And I think some of that would be just like, I'd probably try to gain 10 pounds 'cause I would be looking at it through the lens of, I don't think I need to be faster than say, [00:19:00] like 17 minute 5K shape because that's fast enough for me to get around that loop and 40 minutes if I need to and make sure I'm getting enough sleep so that sleep deprivation doesn't hit me to a degree where I, that becomes the variable that pulls me off the course.

Right. And I mean I could gain 10 pounds and still be able to break a 17 minute five can probably be a heck of a lot more durable. Right. For something that's gonna have me trying to push my body on sleep deprivation, nutrient deficiencies and things that would typically cause an injury or something like that.

So that alone is probably an eight month process of doing that the right way. Um, training inputs would be a lot different. I would probably start doing a lot more practice around. Just doing things kind of a little more specific to the event itself. I think I would just lean on like all my running background as like, okay, all of that is good enough.

Even if I lose a huge chunk of that in the process that's already topped up. And then some compared to what it needs to be. So I need to spend [00:20:00] all my time focusing on things that I'm weak at that I need to improve in order to have any chance at competing. And I think that would be the sleep deprivation side of things.

I would need to try to solve that. So, which is probably just gonna come with some practice because I have no clue what it's like to be up on a third night, much less a fourth or a fifth night. Right, right, right, right. So a lot more strength work. I think a lot more kind of like slow running slash walking so that the durability component at the specifics that would be required during the event are there.

And then even some, some testing where it's like I do the slower stuff, the time on feed stuff and then have like. A backyard structure simulation where I'm trying to run like 40 minute loops instead of like 52 or 53 minute loops. Practicing laying down and being able to fall asleep really quickly.

Figuring out how caffeine engages with that process so that I'm using it to leverage myself to get further, but not compromising my ability to sleep and then therefore forfeiting potential in the future because I'm falling behind on the sleep side of the thing. There's a lot of moving [00:21:00] parts that I think I just haven't had any experience with that I would really need to just put through the machine in order to really figure out what's gonna work so I'm not learning the hard way on race day.

Right, and the, the one variable I think is the hardest two tests. It is possible, I've done it before, but one of the biggest hurdles is dealing with the unknown, not knowing when the race is going to end. You could have everything else dialed, but if you don't know how you'll handle yourself and the conversations that you have.

Over five hours, 10 hours, 24 hours of not knowing when this race is going to end, I think is a thing. A lot of runners that haven't done it don't understand that component. And I've just seen it eat people up. I mean, it ate me up. Um, the, the, so I've done seven backyards since 2021 and I've done two unofficial simulations where [00:22:00] before I ever did my first backyard, I wanted to know what it felt like to do that loop, to know what it felt like to deal with that un unknown.

So on New Year's Eve in 2020, I decided to start at 9:00 PM and just see how far I could go, you know? And that was so wild because one, doing it alone, you've already lost and you've already won because you're not competing against someone else. So you. Literally, it's like, all right, whenever I feel like stopping, I guess that's how long we're going, but it showed me what it felt like to deal with that unknown.

So I was better prepared for that on race day. And so that I think is a component that it doesn't ever get easier because the deeper you go, the more competitive the racers you're going up against. It only grows because you're dipping into such a deficiency of your mental [00:23:00] energy, your physical energy, and that only grows, that that unknown only becomes more of an obstacle the deeper you go into it.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think what you highlighted to some degree there too is like you have to have the right why. Sure. I, I, I learned this with a hundred mile controlled event stuff is like if I went in there for the wrong reasons. When you get to that point where you have to decide, am I willing to really risk the unknown here and, and take a chance, and then still stay focused and really take yourself to the brink, you have to have a very compelling why or it's very easy just to kind of like pull back a little bit and then watch those higher end potentials just kind of fade off into the distance.

Where every time I've gotten like a desire to do something that's a multi-day, I've asked myself, I was like, okay, well is this reason that you're using right now to consider this gonna be powerful enough when you get to that point where you've got a couple days of sleep deprivation under the belt? And you're just out there and you're like stripped [00:24:00] raw, are you gonna look at this reason and say, oh yeah, that's powerful enough to keep me moving.

And I don't, I mean, to some degree I think you have to like to take some chances there. 'cause you won't know for sure until you get into the environment. Right. But I think there is, I think going through that thought process is a very useful thing to make sure that you're just not totally lacking there.

And then putting yourself, setting yourself up to failure when you could be investing your time and energy in something you actually care more about. So how do you, I mean you kind of touched on it, but like how would you stress test if you're why? Is it great enough to participate or not great enough in your mind to step into that challenge?

Yeah, it's a good question. I don't think you can entirely, but I would say to me, what I would do is I would just sit down and I would draw out what I think it's gonna take to prepare for this? Mm. Because a lot of times I think your why gets bolstered as you're starting to invest time and energy into something.

So, 'cause now all of a sudden you've got, you, you know, you've, you've made an [00:25:00] investment. Sure. Like an investment of your own time, your own energy, your own resources, like something that's very finite to everybody. And I would say if, if that looks exciting to me, then I would be like, okay, I think it's worth the, worth, the risk of trying to find out.

So like if I looked at like, alright, that four to six months or whatever happens to be that I'm going to invest into everything that gets me ready for this event. If that looks like something I wanna spend maybe 20 plus hours a week in some cases doing then. I think I've found a good enough reason to put it on the schedule.

You gotta weigh that too with other things too, because there's probably always three or four things I would consider worth my time to do, but at the end of the day, you can only choose one. Yeah. So you gotta, you also gotta compare it relatively speaking to the other things that are available to you.

Yeah, I recently went through that with Coca two 50. Like I had, I'd signed up for that race. I got put on the wait list, my name [00:26:00] was moving up where it was looking likely that I was gonna go, but I just kept going back to asking myself like, why do I even want to do Coca two 50? And a lot of it comes down to there's a lot of hype, there's a lot of potential sponsorship opportunities that can come out of it.

There's a lot of like attention and yes, there's a general and genuine curiosity of wanting to step into some of the 200, 250 mile races and be competitive. But if. Underneath that right now is more of like, there is hype and excitement and I feel like I'm missing out if I don't go. There is not a reason to spend $1,800 at a minimum to go do a race just for those reasons.

And so for that, I pulled out and pulled my name off the wait list. But I, I think it really comes down to you gotta know yourself as an athlete. You gotta know yourself as a person too, to understand, like you said, what [00:27:00] is worth your time and what is worth your investment and what is driving those reasons underneath more than anything.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's, it's kind of a fun thought experiment to do. I always find it. I, I found it. I like the opportunity cost way of viewing this. 'cause it's like for you, if I use myself as an example, I think if I go into multi-day stuff, I'm gonna prepare differently enough. It's not just the optimization for that, but it's like what I would do otherwise and try to further answer.

So like, I've been asking myself a question since 2013 when I ran my very first very controlled hundred miler, which is like, how fast can you actually do this event with as much control as you can build into some of the, what these events offer. And you know, part of me feels like I'm still trying to answer that question.

So I think that's a question that has a father time limitation to it though that's maybe a little bit more sooner than say the multi-day stuff. [00:28:00] So part of me is like, sure, yeah. When do I want to officially say, okay, at this point in time my slope is going down in terms of just. My physical ability to still meet my maximal potential at this discipline.

And, you know, since I'm 40 now, it's like I don't have a tremendous amount of time probably with respect to the hundred mile fast stuff. So it's like, you know, the opportunity cost of giving up a half a year or maybe a full year to try to do something entirely different is, is taking directly from that, that shorter or that small pool of opportunities that I have left.

Yeah. It's like Tom Brady going from the NFL to flag football. It's like flag football's always there, you know, like the time to play in the NFL is not always gonna be there, but he could play flag football for the next decade. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it is, it's, I think it's just kind of something that.

Our sport is gonna have to juggle with more and more as it gets more competitive, like we were talking about [00:29:00] earlier, you're gonna maybe need to kind of choose what area is the most interesting to you. I mean, assuming you wanna have a career in it, that is based primarily on performance versus building a brand within the sport, which I think you can do, you can actually, you, you probably are better off doing with variety in that case.

'cause then you're just kind of moving from challenge to challenge and sharing the story. So if you wanna be like a storyteller and maximize performance as best you can within that context, then, then I think you've got a lot more opportunities to kind of explore the entire sport. Yeah, I mean that's, that's part of the reason why I do Beer Mile.

Yeah. I don't know if you've seen any of that stuff, but I've been told to ask you about that. Okay. Well the beer mile stuff, it started. It really started during my full year calendar club where I did a calendar club every month for 12 months consecutively. And the first day of the month was a celebration that ended, you know, a hundred fifty, a hundred seventy five [00:30:00] mile weeks.

And I was like, thank God that is over. Now let's start again with this month. And it was like, back to one mile, let's do a beer mile. And I just had fun doing it. It was like going into Arrowhead or going into the backyards. I don't get nervous, excited because I know it's gonna take 34 hours or multiple days.

And so I don't get excited about something that's. Going to last multiple days in a jittery sense. But I noticed when I did the beer miles, it's like seven minutes or less and it is this competition and it happened so quick that you don't have time to think. And I just loved that feeling.

And so I started doing those more and more and turned it into a series where I started racing college athletes where they would run their normal mile versus my beer mile. And it's just fun. And it also forces me to like it. I train [00:31:00] around a track. I'll do a track day because I'm trying to prepare for my beer mile races.

And so it forces me to be a little bit more dynamic in my running. And it's just fun. Like it's a fun activity to do within the sport of running that. Uh, it's so that, that, that's part of like that series of being a little bit more dynamic. And being able to story tell and meet athletes that aren't necessarily runners.

But I played college football and college lacrosse and being able to continue to be an athlete outside of a collegiate sport has been the best thing that's ever happened to me. And so hopefully there's an opportunity where I can rub off on maybe a college football player that I'm running against where he sees the other content that I post and he then doesn't feel as lost around not having anything to put that energy [00:32:00] towards once his college days are up.

I mean, that's perfect. And I think that's probably a huge net benefit of the kind of the online world that we have right now, which comes with its own, its own, uh, number of trade-offs with respect to value. But I, I think it, it actually reminds me of when you were on the Life in Stride podcast, you guys were talking about the Goggins effect and you said something that was, 'I, 'cause I get asked about that quite a bit.

Like, are you, 'cause people kind of wanna frame it as pro Goggins or anti Goggins. Sure. And I'm like, that's kind of missing the nuance in my opinion. And you described it as best as possible. You're like, there's this Goggins arc where you are exposed to Goggins and it's like, oh, that's the motivation I needed to get started.

To get in and to actually find your own take the reps required to find your why. And then once you find that, you kind of realize if I just map my why to Goggins, why I'm probably gonna get injured, or I'm probably gonna find that this isn't the best path forward for me. So now I [00:33:00] have to kind of.

Redirect, but you've already gotten that jumpstart that he's looking to give you with his kind of public presence. And then you start kind of doing your own specific optimization things to try to get what you're looking for out of it. And you sort of, you turn to maybe Goggins to get you out the door on the day, you know, you should be doing a workout and you need the extra motivation, but you're not necessarily gonna go out and, you know, try to replicate what he's doing, step for step or show up to some race and try to beat him or something like that.

Yeah, and I had made a video about that too, of like, I was listening to some guys talk about how they were running, did he do like Tahoe or did some 200 mile race? I think Bigfoot, maybe Bigfoot. It was Bigfoot. And they were talking about how it felt beating Goggins. And I'm like, you guys are missing the whole point.

The whole point of Goggins is that you never have to listen to him ever again because he has provided you with the tool in a moment where you needed him. And honestly, I feel like that is all of our rules as athletes. Like if someone's listening to it. Me or come into my [00:34:00] channel, my hope is that they no longer have to rely on the motivation or the tactics that I use because they have internalized that applied what's necessary for them.

And then they've started to test that out and figure out what works for them and what doesn't and what their own voice is through that. And, and so it's like Goggins was my initial energy into the sport and I thought I needed to be David Goggins in order to be someone productive and running. But I learned that like, I don't wanna be David Goggins.

That is such a hardcore mentality that if taken to the extreme was not beneficial to my life. And so I, you know, I haven't listened to Goggins in years, you know, but I think that is the best compliment you could pay to someone if you taught me so many lessons that I no longer need to rely on your motivation to get me out the door.

Yeah, you graduated from Goggins [00:35:00] Academy and now you're onto a different thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. You did mention something I wanted to dive into while having you on here, which is kind of your background. Sure. Because that's another interesting thing I find about the sport right now, and not necessarily just at the competitive end, but in general is the number of non-traditional runners that we see kind of coming into the sport.

Because my experience coming into Ultra was sort of like in the earlier days, and by early I mean like relatively modern. It's like my first ultra was in 2010. There was like a fair bit of like diversity upfront even, and then as the sport got a little faster, we started seeing more like people with traditional running backgrounds kind of start to fill podiums a little bit more regularly, where it's like, okay, these guys and gals are D one, former D one athletes and things like that in track and cross country.

Or they had something that was a directionally equivalent type of sport, like ski mountaineering or something like that. And [00:36:00] then I think we saw like this wave that guys like Goggins, cam Haines, you know, Joe Rogan talking about it on a frequent enough basis, brought in like, or basically highlighted that this sport is approachable by people who don't look like your typical like sure, you know, big city marathon runner and.

That kind of started populating the sport, maybe less so from the competitive side of things, but just in terms of who is actually engaging with the sport of ultra marathon. But then we get to these like multi-day things and the shifting of variables there. And I start to see more people with non-running backgrounds doing quite well.

So like when I have someone like you on, I'm always curious like what your background was with respect to sport. Like where were those kinds of developmental ages spent? Sounds like a football field to a lacrosse field to some degree. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I grew up playing sports. I grew up playing anything that I could get my hands on.

I played soccer, football, basketball, lacrosse, and baseball. I did it all. And I even ran cross [00:37:00] country in grade school type of thing. Like anything I could do. I did. Got to high school, cut it down to football, basketball, and lacrosse, and then got to college and continued with lacrosse and football and so.

I've always been a competitor. I was always the guy, you know, people would always describe me in basketball as a Dennis Rodman, like, I'm guarding the toughest dudes and I'm diving on the ground for loose balls. I'm taking charges. I am the guy that has maybe two points a game, but I'm doing all the intangibles.

And so that was always, always my role and I loved it. And I think that is what kind of helped me get to ultra running was, you know, we're, my first instance of running, of really knowing what the sport was that opened my eyes up was we had a, a lacrosse trip. It was a club, so I was paid to play. We'd stack games on weekends just to get the biggest bang for our buck.

And we played in [00:38:00] Nashville, Tennessee. We lost two out of those three games, one to a team we'd never lost to in program history. And so on this 20 plus hour bus ride back, I'm throwing this internal pity party. I'm pissed. I'm like, we're not even gonna make the tournament. This whole season is a bust. And every year I had been there, we had made it to the national championship game.

And like this, it was all success. It was all national championship mentality. And out of nowhere, my older brother sent me the Joe Rogan's David Goggins podcast, and I'm listening to Goggins talk about how he was running 70 miles around the track, pissing blood, defecating back down the backside of his leg.

And then he gets up and he runs 30 miles and he finishes the 24 hour, you know, a hundred mile. And to me, at that time I was, I saw it as like an opportunity [00:39:00] of one. I like, this is insane that this guy's doing it, but he. Is taking his pain and he is transforming it into something meaningful. And to me, going through college, I was, I didn't have direction.

I was, you know, focused on working hard on the football and the cross field and then partying super hard. And so there was this disconnect between who I was as a person and not dealing with the emotional or mental pain that I was going through. And so I saw that as like, this guy is taking his pain and he is making it meaningful.

And that's what got me into the sport. And you know, through competitiveness, I signed up for a marathon and then did the Goggins Challenge and then found Backyard Ultra. And just wanted to continue to see where this could go, because to me it was like, oh, this is an endless game of a pursuit of seeing what I'm capable of doing and doing it in a way that felt really gritty.

[00:40:00] That was. Core to my identity and all the other sports that I had played up until that point. Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. I mean, I think the well-rounded background with sports, I think intuitively makes sense when it comes to something like these longer, longer types of ultras. Because as you increase the need to be able to explore new things and problem solve, which you're gonna just have to do if you're trying to do a bunch of different sports, you're learning how to adapt and how to change things and pivot when things go wrong and stuff like that.

But then just like physically from a development standpoint, I think as long as the sports have a component of aerobic development, you're probably not gonna have to fight too big of an uphill battle to get there. And something like lacrosse, um, even soccer, depending on what positions you're playing in ba I mean basketball in general probably, but like depending on what position you're playing in football, maybe even something there, like you just have so many interesting things.

[00:41:00] Physical variability or variety there that once you apply that to something like a Backyard or Arrowhead 1 35 and things like this, I think it just has like a, a reasonably good a setup that allows you to explore through sport, to put yourself in a position to be ready for when you want to focus it a little bit more specifically on something.

Well, I think that's part of the reason why I have been drawn to and have succeeded at the arrowheads or the backyards because durability is such a big factor in those, and I have, I spent four years in college in the weight room. Knowing and understanding what it meant to go from, you know, 170 pounds soaking wet as a freshman to 197 pounds with real muscle on my body and understanding the difference that made for me on the football field and the lacrosse field.

And so that shift to then taking that to running and to sports, that those [00:42:00] are two big variables that lead to success. Yeah, it wasn't like a big shift. It was just, okay, I need to run more in my life because I wasn't doing that as much in the preparation for the other sports. And I don't know, I, I think it's, we're seeing another growth in this sport, I think largely due to, at least in my perspective, the BPN and the Nick Bear and what that type of viewer, you know, whether they're coming from like a High Rocks background or just like a lift meathead approach, and they're seeing what's possible for them in the sport.

I think that wave is going to only continue to grow. And I think people just have to be ready for it because the sport is growing and with running it is such a participation sport already where there's so many people already doing it. And then you add in this component of, I never, like, I really don't view myself [00:43:00] as a runner.

I view myself as a competitor. And if you give people who are already competitors coming out of a sport like football or lacrosse or soccer, and you give them another way to compete, watch out. Mm-hmm. Because those are the people that I feel like are the most dangerous when they have spent years training that skill.

I mean, being competitive I think is a skill that you have to learn and you only do that through repetition. And you know, I. I just think that, you know, that is the mindset that a lot of people who are runners haven't really, not to say that they're not competitors, but they undervalue a guy coming from a football or lacrosse or soccer background because they're, they haven't been running their whole life.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. I think it probably, it maybe goes back to a little bit we were talking about at the beginning where you don't [00:44:00] start overthinking things or over leveraging certain variables where if you don't see yourself as a runner, you know, like I think I, I see myself as a runner, so I, I can, if I don't correct for it intentionally, I'm going to overinvest in that side of whatever I'm preparing for, just because it's how I identify myself.

And part of the reason is probably 'cause that's what I enjoy the most. So it's gonna be really easy to talk me into doing more of that, even if I don't need to do more of that. Sure. Whereas if you get someone with a little bit more of a balanced perception about how they're. You know, how they're seeing themselves or moving themselves, then, then I think you're probably just a little bit more open-minded to trying the variety of things that are gonna be important to the sport itself.

And then, and then we, I think we get into like, one of the variables that is, I don't think it, I don't think it's unique to Backyard, but it's maybe a different type of, just kind of like mental toughness or the way you like intake, uh, I don't know how to say it necessarily, but how, how you're like [00:45:00] processing hard things or how you're processing difficulty.

It's like there, or you know, there's like the whole pain tolerance side of the equation and then there's like, just like the mental strength side of it. But it's like mental strength I even think has like a range of types that could be good or bad depending on the type of event. So like, I think of like, say a High Rocks athlete or.

Maybe even like someone who's doing endurance sports, that's a little bit shorter in duration compared to what we're talking about here. It's like that takes a lot of mental strength, but it's like tolerating a very acute, sharp discomfort. Yes, yes. For a period of time. Whereas you get into these multi-day, it's like a very subtle discomfort that you have to tolerate for.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah. I, that is because the pain, so like beer mile, it's, I've gotten my PR down to a 5 49, but like during those five minutes and 50 seconds, it's painful, but painful [00:46:00] in an entirely different way than it's painful to be on hour 60 of a backyard and like with the, the beer mile or that acute like very specific sharp pain, you don't have time to necessarily think.

It's more of, you feel it in your body way more. You can't, you, you know, you're struggling to get breath, but. I'm never struggling to catch my breath in a backyard ultra. It is more of that low grade, you know, you know, in the background pain, it's low and slow and it starts to force you to think more about things like, why am I still out here?

Do I really care about continuing on what, like, am I doing this for external validation? Am I doing this for internal validation? Am I doing this because, you know, X, Y, and Z? Whatever the reason, I've never [00:47:00] had that thought or any of those thoughts. Doing a beer mile, right? Yeah. You know, like that. I don't have time for that.

And so that's where it is, it's like two entirely different things because the pain is, yes, it's physical, but it's because of that low grade physical pain at a, at a, like a dullness that it forces you to contemplate why you're doing anything at all. That never goes away, because I can answer that question on hour 60, but it's gonna come back up at hour 61.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting 'cause when you do the shorter, faster stuff, it's like the narrowness of focus takes care of itself. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause it's like, it's your, your, your physiological response to that intensity is such that you just can't tolerate anything. But the narrow focus, you get into these really long things and it's like your focus can be quite wide.

Mm-hmm. And that's actually a disservice to what you're probably trying to do. So it's like, how do you actively narrow that focus or force that narrowing of focus when it's not just [00:48:00] happening on its own in order to stay focused on what you need to do versus having the outside stuff that's in unimportant lower your, your, your mental bandwidth.

That's the game. That's the game though. And that's why I love it, because especially in the backyard, I can focus on dialing in that internal narrative and overcoming that internal doubt. And I don't have to worry about how the guy next to me is doing. I never have to worry about him. I can just focus on, if I can stay strong and continue to combat those doubts, then I'm still in the fight.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it's really an interesting thing where you can have someone who outperforms you on a loop and it's totally irrelevant. Whereas like in a hundred mile race, if someone puts in a surge, you have to at least consider what the ramifications of that are, positive or negative.

Yeah. Yeah, that's, I don't [00:49:00] know who asked me this. Maybe it was the Stride guys, but they, they talked about, you know, what would, what would you do differently if a Harvey Lewis or Sam Harvey or Phil Gore was on the starting line with you? And I have that opportunity at BPN coming up with Harvey Lewis, but nothing changes because it doesn't have to, being there doesn't change how my process is for everyone, and that's not.

You can't do that in a point to point race. I couldn't do that at Arrowhead because the goal is to get to the finish line first. That is the goal of the race and you have to constantly be aware of where the other competitors are. But yeah, backyard is, you don't? Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's cool, it's a cool setup for that.

I, I'm curious, like what do you do, do you go into those with some sort of a structure? I think the person I talked to that had probably the most detailed kind of protocol was Phil Gore, where he had like a foot care protocol where he was trying to minimize the [00:50:00] abrasion from different, like particles that would enter his shoes and socks.

And he also had a system where he dedicated his sleeping to the nighttime because that's when he is most likely to have the sleep pressure to do it effectively. So it was like those eight hours would be faster loops so he could spend more time sleeping in between them and. I'm just curious, is that, do you, maybe you answered this earlier when you said you're kind of like a little less, uh, like dialed in with that sort of thing, but do you have any sort of structure that you think, okay, this is probably how this is gonna play out, if it's gonna work In my best interest?

Yes and no. I mean, typically I run my loops in 50 to 52 minutes. I will sleep for five minutes and then I'll eat for two and a half, three minutes before I get back on the starting line. Early on, I'm probably not sleeping as much, but once that first night hits, I'm pretty much sleeping as much as I can.

Um, until the end of the race. There might be loops where I don't feel it's necessary, but I just like being almost like a robot in the sense [00:51:00] where if I do the same thing every loop, my body understands that that's what's coming every loop. And there's, you know, there's times where it's like you gotta use the bathroom and that takes five or six minutes and you don't have that time back at, uh, camp to, to do what you need to do or to do the, the system that I've done.

But it changes from race to race. So I did my last outstanding in Belleville, Wisconsin, went 63 hours and on the first night. I was hallucinating and I'd never done that before, and I didn't know why it was happening. I couldn't figure it out. And so, because I don't want a plan of like, I need to do this. At this time, I need to wash my feet at this point.

I need to brush my teeth at this point. I need to get sleep during the night only because if I do that, then when something comes up that isn't a part of the plan, it would just [00:52:00] throw me for a loop. So I have a general sense of the structure, but I'm not holding too tightly onto it because there's so many variables that could change, whether it's because of the weather itself, like it's gonna be 90 plus degrees in Texas.

I've never experienced that type of heat before in a backyard. I don't know what it's gonna do to me. And so it would be foolish for me, in my opinion, to go in with a set strategy and saying, this is how it's gonna be in order for me to have success. Instead I just kind of take a base structure and apply it and know that I can change it around during the race.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that makes sense. I wanted to ask you something about the sleep side of stuff. I actually have two questions here. One is. Was that something you kind of had to learn to do by looking at signs or, and then what you mentioned kind of like your protocol sort of puts you in this like repetition where your body maybe assumes and then behaves accordingly.

Sure. So I guess the second question then would be like, as you [00:53:00] kind of get out on that, is it like easier to fall asleep kind of once you've done it a few times because your body's is literally saying, okay, it's time to shut down 'cause we'd spend 48 minutes or whatever that happens to be. Yes. Uh, so the first question, if I remember correctly, is you wanting to know if that was a process that I had to learn, right?

Like I just, I learned that basically through experience. Now I went into my first backyard kind of knowing that if I wanted to go far, burning the candle too hot early on. Didn't seem like a. A good strategy knowing that if I did the loop in 40 minutes, the 20 minutes I had to rest. I'm just sitting there.

I mean, I just didn't see the benefit of running a fast loop and then getting extra time to sit and wait until the next loop. And so I sort of saw it as like, I'm gonna go low and slow and [00:54:00] burn the engine, um, at a mild, mild pace. And, and so that worked for me and that's something that I felt comfortable with and could see myself going a farther distance in.

So that was through experience and just like, I like this strategy better than running a fast loop. And so I went with that. And then, you know, to your second question, it is, I've never had a problem falling asleep, so my wife kind of gets upset with me because the minute I hit the pillow, I'm out like a light.

I can, I can just turn it off there. Uh. I think also what has helped me is I, my full-time job for five years outta college was working for a cold brew coffee company. I would travel in a van around the country for months at a time, sleeping in different parking lots, uh, wherever I could find a place to sleep.

And so I'm used to just. Shutting my eyes, whether there's traffic outside, whether there's loud noises, I can just get to [00:55:00] sleep. And so during the day where it's a little bit more lively, where there might be music playing, I have just leaned on the system of just knowing that like, when I get in, the first thing I do is I'm gonna put my feet up, I'm gonna lay down and I'm gonna rest my eyes.

If I get five minutes of sleep, great. If I don't, then I get five minutes of rest. Either way, it's a BA bonus. And over time, I just feel like my body gets in that rhythm where it knows what to expect. Whereas I get more tired, as I get deeper into the races, it's just, it's like clockwork. It's robotic.

Do you sleep quite a bit in your normal life? Like, do you have a set number of hours per night that you feel best at? Eight hours is what I typically get. Um, okay. Before. So my wife and I, we didn't live together before we got married, and I would go to bed at like 11, 11 30, and we [00:56:00] lift at 6:00 AM So my hours of sleep before I got married were five and a half to six hours.

My wife is in bed at 8: 45 every night. And so after getting married, my sleep has completely shifted and has been the best thing ever, you know? So I'm getting at a minimum, seven and a half at a maximum, nine hours of sleep a night. Okay. You're giving me some hope on the sleep deprivation side of things.

I was talking to Rachel Kin about this and I told her that I thought that that would be a limiter for me, wherever. Whatever advantage I would have over someone like her with just running efficiency would get negated by the fact that I like to sleep eight hours a night and that's when I feel best.

And my suspicion was that these people who are crushing these multi-day holidays are probably people who can get away with four to five hours per night. No. No. Okay. Yeah. 'cause I map you pretty closely. Like I can get to bed easily, like if my head hits the pillow, I can be out right away, [00:57:00] but I don't function well for like six hours a night.

So my intuition, intuition was that maybe it would be a disadvantage, but maybe, maybe it's more about just being able to get to sleep quickly and maximizing that. So it could be an advantage for me. Who knows? I've got some hope. Yeah, I think that, more than anything, is a huge advantage because the assistant, Stephanie Rosenbaum, who assisted me at my most recent backyard, had a really tough time getting to sleep.

Like she would take, even on the loops where she would try and schedule like a 10 minute nap, she wasn't able to fall asleep very well. So I think your ability to get to sleep quickly is really important. And for guys like us who don't have to think about falling asleep, people will stress over things like, I need to fall asleep right now.

It doesn't seem like that's an issue for you. It's not an issue for me. Yeah. And so that is huge. And have, I mean, I know you've done, you know, big races, but [00:58:00] have you ever done a, a race or a challenge where you've taken a five minute trail nap? Like do you have that experience? Yeah, uh, kind of accidentally actually.

So I was doing a 24 hour event once, and I totally imploded and I was dedicated to getting to 24 hours regardless of what the distance was though, just so I could have that experience of, all right, I was out here on the track for 24 hours. And during that process, like in the. Weird hours of the night. I had this situation where I stopped to like, like foam rolling my hip, which was giving me some issues.

Okay. And I drank a cup of coffee while I was doing that, and then all of a sudden I got like really tired and I laid down, I like fell asleep for like 10 minutes and then I woke up like right as the caffeine was probably kicking in and was like, felt amazing for about an hour after that. Okay. But, okay.

That's a great example though of like, all you need is that hour. Mm-hmm. So imagine if you could get to the point where you could dial in a five to 10 minute nap every [00:59:00] hour or every two hours. You just, your focus goes to that next loop and all you need is to get to that next loop. So you know you're not taking a 10 minute nap to get you another 24 hours.

You're just getting to that next opportunity. You have to reset for another hour. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. I think it would be fun to play around with that as a freak, like a more intentional way versus the accidental way that I did it, I think. Sure. Yeah. It was a very, it was a, it was a cool experience to have, just to be, because I'd, I talked to people in the ultra and the community who would talk about that, where they would try to do that intentionally where they would have a caffeine source and then try to take a nap.

'cause they knew it would be 15, 20 minutes before the caffeine would kick in and they would kinda get this double impact where they'd get the, the freshness of that quick power nap. But then they'd also get the caffeine hit at the same time and they were like, it was like a total reset. Yeah. And I was like, so that was like the one opportunity I had to experience that.

I was gonna ask you too about [01:00:00] fueling and hydration for these things. I imagine it's just like a vital component to do, but I also think there's probably a lot of range in which you can do it. And I'd be curious about your protocol if there is one. And then also one thing I've been trying to figure out is like, is there a reason to be more.

So shift a lot more of that towards the actual loop when you're out there to kind of, since the intensity you need to produce is so low, maybe you kill two birds with one show and take care of a lot of the eating and drinking while you're out there so that when you get back to the camp, you can focus all that time and energy more on non-fuel and hydration based things.

Yes. So my wife, God bless her, she handles all of that. What we do in the days that lead up to the race is we'll cook a bunch of base stuff, so like mashed potatoes, even broccoli steak, chicken, you know, and, and then we'll have like eggs and vegetables and stuff to throw in like a bean and egg burrito.

But every loop it is. Going [01:01:00] based on feel. So before I leave that, that, you know, aid station, she'll ask me some things of what I want and I'll say, you know, I'm leaning more to that. Or she'll just have something prepared early on in the race when I have handheld burritos. I take those with me on the course because more often than not, I'm walking the first quarter mile to eat while I'm doing that.

And I learned that from, what is her name? Um, she, I'm blanking on her name, but she set the woman's course record for the Superior Hiking Charlie FKT. And she was at the first backyard at Ultra I'd ever done. And I noticed that she would be eating in the first quarter mile of that loop. And so I just, I put that in the back of my mind like, well, she won that race, she's an elite runner.

And it seemed. Like a natural opportunity to eat and take care of two birds [01:02:00] with one stone, like you said. And so I've started incorporating that in all my races where if I have the opportunity to not bring a plate of food, um, and I can have it as a handheld, I'm eating that on the course because it forces me to also slow down too.

Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. Actually, like when I was thinking about it, I was thinking about just some of the directives I'll give my coaching clients when it comes to aid station navigation. And one of them is going to the aid station, knowing what you need Sure. And what you want so that you're not trying to make those decisions and wasting time in the aid station.

And then once you have it all, start walking out onto the trail because at least you're covering some ground then. Yeah. And most of the stuff you can do while walking, so you're better off walking and eating or walking and drinking than you are standing in the aid station, eating and drinking. Just and, and also it's gonna.

It's gonna keep you from hanging. 'cause you know how it goes with the aid stations. It's like the clock is on fast forward and the aid station and it grinds to a halt while you're out there on the course. Yep. How [01:03:00] would you fare with, because I've never seen somebody do it, I don't think it's possible to only rely on gels and go for a backyard.

Would you find that to be something you'd have to work on in training or is that something that you don't think you'd have a problem with or like scarfing down some real food, like spaghetti or mm-hmm. Some, some other form of, of fuel? Yeah. No, it's a great point. I would say I'm a hundred percent on board with the, you're gonna want more than just gels and sports drinks with something like this.

And you might, with the way I look at it, it's for like most people, like even a single day ultra, they probably want some. Balance between the two solid foods versus liquid sports products. Now you start pushing up to the fast end of those types of single day stuff, then you're probably getting into all the sports drinks and gels and things like that.

But multi-day I think is where even the top of the sport are gonna benefit from some solid foods. I actually think I would [01:04:00] probably be fine with that. Uh, I think I would, it would be a little more desirable 'cause I think it's just a little bit more palatable to be having some variety and to be eating real food in my opinion.

And really the only downside to that is like if I'm trying to clip 6 30, 6 40 pace, it's kind of a little less, like I can feel the relative perceived effort shift if I'm putting solid foods in my stomach when I'm doing that pace versus 10, 11, 12 minute mile pace. I think at that point I'd almost prefer to have the solid food, even if I'm just nibbling on it versus eating a huge amount of it.

Right.

Yeah, I mean the solid food.

It's one of my favorite parts about that race. You know, I'm eating steak the whole time. Yeah, dude, I'm having steak at two in the morning. I'm like, how could this get any better? Yeah. Are you almost exclusively doing solid foods or are you rinsing in some? I haven't touched a [01:05:00] goo in five years.

Really? Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Was that the same for Arrowhead 1 35? Yes. Wow. Okay, cool. Nice. So if you were to do like a 50 miler or a hundred miler as fast as you could, would you still try to do solid food or would you try to work in gels at that point? Depends if, I guess it depends. Like if I'm, if I'm trying to push the pace as fast as I possibly can to compete in that race, I, I almost feel like it'd be a disadvantage for me not to try, go.

But I don't know. I, I, I, I'm not entirely sure. I think.

I would like to believe that I could still do salad foods, but you know, it's just a lot going on in the stomach. Mm-hmm. While also doing, doing that pace. Um, it might also come down to how much you're [01:06:00] trying to hit too. 'cause for me, what usually becomes a pinch point is like if my workload is high enough, where if my workload is high enough in a race where I'm getting up to like a thousand calories an hour, then it's just a lot to be putting in.

If it's not very, very quick and very subtle, I guess is maybe the way to put it. Although if you overrun the digestive track with anything, it doesn't feel subtle. Right. Right. So yeah, I mean I think intuitively it's probably, I mean it's really just like speed of transport to some degree, and if you're putting enough in there, you want it to get in and get out as quickly as possible so it can make room for the next round.

And if you're doing solid foods, it's just probably less likely for that to happen. Yeah, that'd be interesting. I'd like to sign up for a hundred miles this summer, but still, I'm still looking at the schedule, so maybe that's something I will test out. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you might even be able to lean heavily on solid foods and just have like the occasional gel or sports strength just to top [01:07:00] off a little bit or drop in something when you're just not feeling like you may end up finding that you desired it at a certain point.

But the interesting thing I find about like the backyards and the longer stuff and the solid food input is I actually find that digestively to maybe be a little bit more of a. Convenient lever to pull because if you're eating similar foods in your day-to-day life, you've pretty much run a lot of digestive training.

Yeah. With respect to that type of food. So are you choosing it based on that? Is it like the stuff you're gonna eat out there on the course are pretty typical to what you'd be preparing for a lot of your meals and snacks and things on a day-to-day basis? I don't know if there's much of an intention of doing that, but the foods I eat during a backyard are nearly identical to the foods that I'm eating in everyday life.

Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was probably the case. It might just depend too much. Types of, are you focusing on any sort of like macronutrient ratios on your day-to-day nutrition? Or is it just like get a [01:08:00] lot of everything, get a lot of everything that probably sets yourself, sets yourself up well for the backyards then?

Because you're probably trying to get a lot of everything when you're out there doing that. I mean, for a time, I, you know, in the back end of the calendar club that I was doing in February for training was trying to push above 6,000 total calories with 200 plus grams of protein. And other than that I was not really looking at, you know, fat or fiber too much.

So those were the two metrics that I was measuring. And other than that, to me it just gets too nitty gritty for me to even mm-hmm. Like think about. Yeah, well, when you're hitting 6,000 calories a day, I always think certain things come along for the ride pretty easily at 6,000 calories and fiber's one of 'em.

You almost have to be careful how much you're getting because it's almost easy to get too much of it if you're not [01:09:00] almost mindful about refining that down to things that have less of it.

You're not thinking about any of that. You're just mainly like, sure. Okay. I think you pro, I mean, some of that stuff I think just presents itself though too. Like if, for me, if I'm, if I'm just going about eating a bunch of food and I happen to eat a bunch of foods that have a lot of fiber with it, like I'll know soon enough that that wasn't a good idea and I'll make an adjustment on that.

I'll be like, oh, I probably shouldn't eat all these fiber rich fruits and vegetables when I'm trying to produce a lifestyle that necessitates 6,000 calories in a day. And then you just sort of like pick the foods that are a little more friendly to that lifestyle and they happen to kind of fall. Fall in the right spot over time.

This might sound intuitive to most people, it wasn't as much to me, but I did make a shift in what I would eat out during a run before. Like I'd go out for four [01:10:00] or five hours and I wouldn't eat or fuel with anything. I didn't bring anything outta my room. And if I stopped at a grocery store, I'm like, oh, protein, that'll help me feel better.

I'm gonna get 50 milligrams of protein in this chocolate milk or chocolate protein shake. And it just never felt good. And I never was that curious to understand why I didn't feel great. And then I shifted to like carbs or like a rice Krispy treat, or like a big giant cookie. Mm-hmm. And such a difference.

Just even just feeling better or eating a banana or having some, you know, Gatorade or sports drink. Not the best thing that I could take, but it was better than focusing on protein, which wasn't helping me at all for the rest of that run. Yeah, protein is an energy source, there's so many steps required, like your body can do it, but it's a lot more efficient with carbs and fats when you're in the middle of something.

So are you training with [01:11:00] nutrition more frequently now when you go out for longer sessions, just to prepare for the race itself or even just stay on top of energy needs for the day? A little, yeah, a little bit more of just wanting to feel better. During my runs this last month, it's been a lot less big, mild days.

During that last week of training for the calendar club, it was being a lot more intentional about the foods I was eating, leading, even leading up to the run, and also what I was eating during the run so that I could feel good throughout the whole thing. A lot of times, you know, I'm just going out for five hours, I'm like, all right, I feel like crap three hours into this, I'll just drag my butt through the remaining two hours, and that's just how it is.

Um, and then I just kind of woke up and said, I don't have to, I don't have to do it like this anymore. I don't have to. There are ways of feeling good. Um, so yes and no, but as it relates to, I don't think about that as, oh, [01:12:00] this'll help me during the backyard. I just think about it, it's gonna help me feel better today about the run and, and ultimately I'll come back tomorrow feeling better because of this.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know. That makes sense. Cool. So next up for you is BPN, if I'm not mistaken. Yep. Nice. When is that again? Is that in April or May? April 10th. So the 10th two. And that's coming, a half week coming. Yeah. Yeah. So you're coming out this way? I, I think LA last year I started following it when, like most people did when it started going viral on Instagram.

Sure. And then I, 'cause I mean, I live in Austin, so I was like, you know what, maybe I could go down there and watch it, but it wasn't clear to me how to do that. So I didn't end up going down there. They had all those storms and things then too, which was a little bit messy. But maybe this year I'll see if I can swing down there and say hi to you guys if they let people come in.

I don't know how exclusive it is, but I'm sure you could find a way to, to get there. Yeah. It's up near, it's just north of Georgetown. Mm-hmm.[01:13:00] 

But yeah, I'm sure there's a way that you could, you could get in, I don't know how, like they, they, when they sent us an email about. Who we could bring and what we could bring. They wanted us to limit it to three crew members. Okay. But from people I've talked to, it wasn't like it was something they were counting every person coming in, checking your card at the end.

Yeah. Like who, who's coming in? Um. Slipped through the cracks, I'm sure. So, yeah, I had Nick on the podcast I think probably like four or five months ago at this point. So we were talking a little bit about it. Uh, yeah, so it'll be fun to watch either way, whether it be virtual or some, some in person. It would be, I'm interested.

I've never been to one, so like I think it'd be fun just to kinda watch, 'cause I've been to some of the multi-day stuff, uh, quite a bit of the multi-day stuff and the 200 plus mile stuff to just sort of like spectate and crew and just kind of get a grip on kind of what [01:14:00] people are doing and why they're doing it and just seeing that stuff.

But I haven't been to a backyard, so I think it would be fun to go there and, and watch. I think part of it would be just trying to pick the right spot, because ideally you'd get in there when it's kind of like a little bit in the thick of it. But obviously you gotta be somewhat conscious of the fact this thing could end at any time.

So you don't wanna Yeah. Wait too long and miss out on your opportunity altogether. Well, find your way up. I'd love to. I'd love to. Yeah. Yeah. I'll see what I can do. I think it'd be fun. I was gonna ask you one more thing. About that. I'm trying to think of what it was now. It must not have been that important, or maybe I'll think about it and ask you about it in a future interview if you're willing to come back on.

Yeah, absolutely. Cool. Awesome. Well, BPN next, when's Bigs this year? Is that, uh, that's your, another big one you got on the calendar, right? Yeah, October 19th. Okay, so you're kind of building a year on those two events then? Yeah, those are the two big [01:15:00] ones and I was looking at doing a beer mile over the summer, but I think I want to push that closer to the fall and challenge lacrosse teams.

One of the things that I've been getting big into, or wanting to lean more into, I guess, is, uh, public speaking and sharing my knowledge. I. So I was a college football coach my first year outta school. I got into coaching because I was a guy that got in trouble with alcohol three different times, was on probation, had no direction.

And part of the reason I wanted to go back to Coach was to sort of be a leader to athletes that I would identify as kind of in that similar space. I learned that there's a difference between liking the game of football and liking to play football. And I just hated the game of football, you know? And then through Beer Mile I got connected back with these college athletes [01:16:00] and it was a way for me to pass knowledge, you know, just be around the guys and sort of just share what I had to share on a given day.

And now I'm going back to high schools and colleges, to different sports teams and clubs to share what I've learned in ultra running. And that has been. Such an uplifting thing for me because it feels like a way that I can give back and pass on that knowledge to the next generation of athletes. So I'm thinking about shifting that towards the fall, and so I've kind of opened up my summer to either test out a challenge.

There's a challenge that I really want to do, but it would take a lot of time, not just for me, but for my wife. And if that doesn't really play out, it would be finding a few hundred milers to put on the schedule. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, putting a hundred miles on the schedule and beer miles on the schedule, those are maybe a little bit easier because they have [01:17:00] a very relatively clear start and end point.

Yeah. The backyards, do you have a strategy where it's like, Hey, this thing could go four or five days, maybe more when you're planning for that sort of thing? Well that's, that's the challenge. We're trying, we're driving down to Texas and we have no idea when we're gonna get back. You know, the race could take four or five days and then you build in a day to just kind of recover before you start the drive.

And the drive's another two days. So it is on, those are harder to plan around because you just don't know how long they're gonna take. And if it's to a race that doesn't have known competitors, like a Harvey, like a Kim, like a Kendall, you don't know who's gonna show up. So it could take 32 hours. It could take 60 hours.

Mm-hmm. So those are harder to plan around. Yeah, it's a little messy. Yeah. It's not easy. Would you [01:18:00] prefer a scenario where like every hour they drop a minute and then it kind of controls how long it's gonna last at that point? 'cause then you're, once it gets down. Into like the 30 minute range, you're gonna start seeing people drop like flies pretty quickly.

Yeah. I mean they, I think, uh, Chad Wright has a race either, it either already happened or it's happening very soon where they're testing out that concept. Okay. I think as a whole, like, do I think backyards should shift to that? No, but I think having races where it explores different formats of that I think would be super cool.

Or even like the last person at every loop gets eliminated. So yeah, that would be fun. You know, like you could play around with it so much Uhhuh or you could have like speed rounds where, you know mm-hmm. At 24 hours they're gonna, you know, you have to hit it in 45 minutes or you're eliminated, there's so much you can [01:19:00] do with that format, but, you know, it would be a disadvantage for me to say that.

I think all races should go towards that because I live in the space of my multi day system and I'm like, I know this is gonna go four days. I'm gonna get myself there as best as I can. Yeah, absolutely. You know what would be kind of fun too from a format is have like a a wheel spinner with a duration on it and like, so you don't know, it could be 60, it could be 40, it could be 45, whatever happens just come up on and you have to just respond as it gets done.

That'd be, I think, a fun format. Now you got my brain turning. There's, yeah, that would be super cool and you could make the bottom end high enough where it's still gonna likely get into that like multi-day range where I think like if you set the floor at like 40 minutes, you're probably not going to see like the top of the sport falling out within a day.

You're still gonna see guys. Guys and gals going multiple days in that. But it does add that little bit of [01:20:00] like variability where if it catches you at the wrong time, maybe maybe you, you miss out on something. But yeah, there's so many fun different ways to do it. It'll be fun to see how that goes. 'cause it seems like that side of the sport's been growing a lot and when that happens, sometimes we see these offshoots, so it'll be fun.

Definitely. One last question actually, with respect to that sort of stuff that kind of plays into it. Do you want, do you, would you prefer adverse weather? Because that would shorten the duration too, but maybe not at a disadvantage to someone like you where obviously you're good with adverse weather, at least on the cold end with Yeah, with Arrowhead, BPNs are probably going to get pretty warm.

It's not gonna be optimal. So like in theory that limits how long it goes, but it adds a complicated enough variable where it's not necessarily something where, alright, it's gonna still, it's gonna favor someone with more running efficiency. Now it's still probably something where a lot of those non-running specific variables are important.

It's just a little in a different way. Are you looking for optimal weather, that's my best [01:21:00] shot. Or give me 90 plus degrees or 10 below and maybe take a little bit of time off the back end, but favor me because of that. I would like to think of myself as someone who handles adversity better than anyone. So if there's extreme rain or extreme heat or extreme cold doesn't matter to me, I welcome it because I know it is a thing that can hurt other people in a way that I don't feel like it hurts me.

And so I'm, I'm here for it. I, you know, in the last race I did, it was, or the last backyard I did, it started raining and there were six of us left and everybody around me was just so upset about it and I was like, this is awesome. Yeah, this is the best thing that's happened. And. I see how the change in weather or how little adversity affects other people.

So to me it's like, bring it on. It's, you know, I ran Arrowhead in [01:22:00] minus 20 degrees. I, I, you know, I know that's not the same as running in 98, but it is in a way of your mindset and your approach to it not being a reason that you're gonna stop. Mm-hmm. It's a stressor that is independent of what your fitness is like, that's gonna wear on you over time.

A hundred percent. Regardless of which end of the spectrum is, obviously you behave differently on the other polar ends of the extreme, but that's the same sort of like additional stress coming, coming down on you to some degree. Yeah. I mean, last question, last year at BPN, they ended in a tie due to extreme weather.

My understanding was that it was a vote. If that was you, are you saying. Alright, we can settle this tie. Or are you saying No, let's get back out there and find out who's the last man standing thunderstorms to be damned. I think the competitor in me would've said, let's keep going. But, and that was my initial reaction of like, [01:23:00] like, this, what, what are they gonna do?

But I think once the race stops, it becomes an entirely different race. Mm-hmm. Once that system has been broken, it just, it, it's no longer a backyard, it's a different race. And so I, you know, if it was me, I'm always, I'm never gonna shy away from the competition, but I think the race changed so much in that situation where I entirely understand and respect their decision to say, let's call this a tie.

And it creates a narrative for this year where they're both coming back and it. We get to find out. Yeah. We settle it one way or the other. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, and now your hat's in the ring, so that works for you. Yeah. Awesome. Mark, well before I let you go, if you wanna let the, the listeners know where they can find you, website, social media and that sort of thing, I'm sure a, a few of us will be paying attention to how things go for you [01:24:00] at b pn.

Yeah. Um, mark dot doddle on Instagram and YouTube, those are kind of my two main things. So you can find me there and um, yeah, we got a documentary coming out on Arrowhead that will drop the week of BPN, so you can find that on my YouTube channel as well. Right on. Well thanks a bunch, mark. I'll make sure I put that stuff in the show notes so people can link over to if they wanna check out more.

But um, until next time, good luck with the final prep for BPN and I'll be rooting for you to crush it out there. Thank you, Zach. Appreciate you having me on Alrightyy. Take care.