Episode 478: 100 Mile Record Redemption | Raj Paunnu

Raj Pannu recently won and set the course record at the USATF 100 Mile National Championships. Raj was determined for redemption this year after being DQ’d last year due to his shoes not meeting USATF guidelines. In this episode, we discuss his trajectory through the 100 mile distance and steady improvements over the years.

Endurance Training Simplified Series

Wahoo KICKR Run: wahoofitness.com Code: OUTLIER (free HR Monitor with Purchase)

Training Peaks:https://bit.ly/4bN041t Code HPOPOD (free 14-day trial)

LMNT:drinkLMNT.com/HPO (free sample pack with purchase)

deltaG:deltagketones.com Code: BITTER20 (20% Off)

ProBio: probionutrition.com/enduranceCode:Endurance (20% Off)

HPO Sponsors: zachbitter.com/hposponsors

Support HPO: zachbitter.com/hpo

Zach’s Coaching: zachbitter.com/coaching

Raj: @lightningraj

Timestamps:

Episode Transcript:

[00:00:00] Alright, Raj, I think we're up. How's it going? Awesome. Doing well. I know we missed this piece, but I was talking to you about how I went for a four mile run yesterday and essentially died one week after my hundred mile race. So. It is funny how when you have a performance like you just had at the U-S-A-T-F-A hundred mile championships that you, you get on the starting line and you're super fit and able within the matter of, in your case, a little less than 12 hours, you're barely movable and that may lasts a week or beyond. Yeah, seriously, like your superpowers just get removed. You, you go from running a sub seven minute pace for a hundred miles. To barely be able to walk, such a juxtaposition, but I, I recall finishing the race and then for 12 hours, I just, I, I felt like I was on my deathbed. I couldn't eat anything properly. I had a couple Ritz crackers and was trying to restore the electrolyte balance in my [00:01:00] system. I was on the struggle bus, to say the least, but I'm sure you know all about that.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think they all have their own little unique experience. I actually remember the first time I met you when we were both doing this race back and I think it was 2022 and they had delayed it to like late April, I think, because of the pandemic side of things. And I think it was like in the mid nineties that day.

And yeah, I didn't, I didn't notice it during the race, thankfully, but I got like. I think I got some sort of heat related illness after that race. 'cause I was in the, I actually had to keep my hotel an extra night 'cause I could barely move. I was just puking and sleeping for like, basically two days after that race.

And yeah, some of 'em have a little bit of a longer tail at the end in terms of getting back to normal. That's for sure. Yeah, I recall you finishing your race and then the following day you sent me a DM just like being like, Hey, chin up. You're gonna do well, I know you D nfd, but I believe you invited me and [00:02:00] Patrick like just out and just, you're just gonna go walk around.

And I ran 40 miles and I'm like, what the hell? They. You're just, they're normal. They're able-bodied right now. They did the full race and actually it happened in 2021, so this was April of 21. And it's okay. That's right. Yeah. What, early nineties. So, anytime I've run this, I guess this is my.

Third finish, and they keep saying, I have the course record, but in the back of my head I'm like, damn, if, if Zach ran this in February, like, he definitely would've gone sub 12, so to say the least. I'm very confident in that because it was so hot and even at that time. I feel like we still, ultra runnings evolved so much, even the past, like five or so years.

Like looking back and seeing how people try to adapt to the conditions for something like Javelina, right? Like I felt like we. As a collective of the lead athletes that were there. Me, you, Camille and Stephanie Flippen. I might mispronounce her last name, but all of us were, [00:03:00] we were just trying to figure things out on a whim.

Not to say that we didn't have ice bandanas, things of that nature, but I don't think all of us adequately did what we needed to do to maintain cooling for that day. I dunno if you agree with that statement or not. Absolutely. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. And I think I, I think we see this even more clearly at races like western states.

Where you have so much more support now and better protocols now than we had. Five, 10 years ago, and I, I like to look at Killian Joney for this one, because you think he won it in 2011. And then, and, and ran like 15 and a half hours, which is now the women's course record.

And like he comes back now this last year, and he runs over an hour faster, and it's like mm-hmm. It's unlikely that Killian's like. That much better of an athlete now than he was back then. Yes. It's more likely that now we just have better approaches, better, better everything essentially from [00:04:00] the shoes to the, the cooling management, the hydration, the fueling strategies and things, where it is on a course like that, it saves you.

Over an hour worth of time, so yeah. I, I, javelina is another great one like that where I think you look at just the heat management protocols now and the fueling and everything that goes into running fast. And it's an exciting time to be part of a sport that's learning and growing as fast as it is.

Yeah. You ran Javelina in 23, is that right? You did a hundred? Yeah, I've done Javelina three times. Actually, I did it in 16, 17, and then 23, so. Oh, wow. That's a fun one. Yeah. Yeah, it's always hot there. It's actually funny. The first time I did Javelina in 2016, I signed up for it, like really late because I needed to get a Western States qualifier race in.

Because I was pretty, I was pretty confident I was gonna get offered a sponsor spot at Western States, but I didn't have a qualifier. So. I was like, alright, I gotta get this done or I'm gonna have to turn down a spot at Western Western States. Yeah. And I went in there with the goal [00:05:00] of like, well, I was like, I only had to finish it because that's all you really need for the qualifier, for the most part.

But you know how it goes once you get on a race course, if you're feeling good, you go for it. I was running pretty strong that day, and, but I didn't bring a crew, I didn't bring a pacer. I literally learned about topical cooling during that race. So, it was just one of those things that I look back at now.

Yeah. That was a, you're not winning races nowadays with that strategy. Oh, absolutely not. No. And you, you nowadays, you, you feel less crappy leaving a course because you, you have all the resources now, right. Like, I'm, I'm very curious as to what Javelina in 2023 looked like versus jackpot in 2021 when you won the jackpot.

Did you have more resources? Like were you more on top of cooling during that time or? Yeah. Yeah. And I was much better at pacing, I think, too. I definitely was more aware of, [00:06:00] I was probably more fit going into jackpot in 2021 than I was have going or going into Javelina 2023, but my execution and pacing and things like that around pacing, and then just having a little bit of a better grip on how to manage heat and and everything that kind of goes into that course. It was definitely, definitely better. I think if I had raced Javelina the way I raced jackpot in 21, I probably would've had a really rough finish. Mm. Okay. Yeah Ja jackpot in 21 was interesting because like you mentioned, like there was like, that was when Pat Reagan was in, he was really like humming along at the a hundred mile distance.

You obviously brought in all sorts of speed and it was like. We didn't know for sure because you hadn't done a hundred miles yet, but the assumption was if he nails it, he's gonna have a really fast time. I was coming off some pretty fast a hundred milers, so I think we got out pretty fast that day and especially for the conditions.

Yeah. So like in hindsight, I think I probably would've gone out a little bit slower and that might've maybe helped that last, [00:07:00] last duck. 20% or so a bit. It's one of those things too. It's like championship racing versus record chasing. Sometimes you just go with the flow and see what happens.

And I guess I benefited from you and Pat having some rough spots during that one. Earlier on. So it's the nature of the game, right? Like you're it's a game of cat and mouse, especially in these like road ultra races because, h, how do I put it? It's a jackpot. The year you won it, it was competitive.

There were several athletes, several road ultra athletes going for something, right? And it just changed how you are gonna approach the racing. And I felt like maybe you might agree with this or not, but you just let me do my thing and let my lack of experience just come back to bite me in the ass and then you catch me and then you just do what you normally do.

So. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think when and if I remember right, I think when you went out, I could tell, like, if I go with him, I'm going to blow up versus [00:08:00] thinking like if I keep doing, like I'm, I, I felt like I was already probably being a little more aggressive the, a little more, at least on the aggressive side.

So at that point I was like, well, either, either he blows up and I catch him, or at least slows down and I catch him. And. And then I win, or he puts up such an impressive performance that no matter what I would've done, I wasn't gonna catch him. And then no, all I could have done is really caused myself to blow up on top of you having an amazing performance.

So, I, I, I, I can't remember how, 'cause I know you had a decent lead at one point, but I can't remember exactly how, or how large it got before. I started reeling you back in. But I do remember you had a pretty strong start. I recall it very vividly. Like I was going, I wasn't scorching fast, but I was going maybe seven oh fives, which for that day might have been a little hot, but it wasn't crazy by any stretch of the imagination.

And then you and Pat were running together from what I recall for at least like the first 10 to 15 miles. And I wanna say you two [00:09:00] were doing maybe seven 30 ish ish, like, minutes. But for me, my challenge was just lack of. Knowledge in regards to feeling, in regards to hydration. I recall Jake Jake Jackson, his wife who sells cooling. What do you call 'em?

Cooling bandanas, right? Like ice bandanas. Yeah. They saw me just run without an ice bandana, and his wife offered my mom, who was crewing me at the time, an ice bandana, and she was just scurrying to get ice for me. And she was like, put this on. And I'm like, what the hell race with it? The bandana is full of ice now.

Like I've never done this. But I felt like it was more so just not understanding just the other variables outside of the actual running itself. Because I feel like as these distances grow longer, it's not so much about your speed or natural talent, things of that nature. It's just, hey, is your body able to sustain?

A hundred mile ultra marathon. Like you have to have the [00:10:00] components of things just outside of running, from strength training, nutrition, and also just fueling and cooling strategies, right? Like things that matter in marathons, but not to the greatest extent that could like, make or break your day essentially.

Yeah, I, I, the way I always look at it is like, I think the efficiency variable is important for runnable a hundred milers, where it's like, yeah, if someone has like a really developed and top tier, like VO two max and lactate threshold paces and things like that, that's gonna be an advantage for them. But that variable itself.

Is amongst a bunch of other variables that are relatively unique that it can't necessarily do it all for you. So yeah. Yeah. If you mismanage something else, all of a sudden you can have that whole, that whole advantage rendered obsolete really quickly, whether that be weather, hydration, fueling, any of that sort of stuff.

So, it gets interesting and stuff like that. And I think the thing that was the most impressive to me about that, [00:11:00] about your kind of trajectory through what I would call like. Very runnable, a hundred milers because in the trails we have runnable a hundred milers too, but like, of course, like jackpot or like getting on a track like I've done in the past and you're really looking for a pretty fast time in an environment like that. And you're giving up all the, like, the luxury of having variance on the course in order to try to run a little bit faster. And a lot of times when I see people come into that for the first time, if they have an experience like you did, it's really easy to get deterred and just decide, Hey, this isn't for me, Uhhuh, there's so many other options in the sport, I'm just gonna go this direction instead.

Whereas you took that experience, you're like, no, I'm gonna refine that. And it couldn't be more of a beautiful, more beautiful story of you just sort of like. Coming back year after year and getting a little bit better each time. And then now we're sitting here a week out from you running an 1138 incredibly fast, a hundred mile time pr and of course a record.

So, I just think I love that. I love that [00:12:00] you had the patience and the kind of determination not to just let the monotony and maybe the availability of other options to distract you from thinking like, Hey, I can do this well and didn't go well for me the first time, but I can do this.

And, and now you've got a great, a great trajectory. I appreciate that. I made it a thing, I believe when I dropped out, I think I dropped out at the a hundred K mark of our race, the race that you won. And I made it a thing to just stay and just watch what you were doing with your wife just crewing you and helping you out.

And it seemed like, obviously it wasn't like a course record type day for anyone. But you were just holding on for dear life, and you're also just acknowledging me and other people at the jackpot, like, thank you. Just very small words to appreciate the crowd out there during that time. But just seeing how you handled not only the course, but just how engaged you were and how calculated you were and to watch you finish.

At the time I believe it, Ken Rebell, I might be [00:13:00] mispronouncing his name when he was the race director of Jackpot I was, I was like watching alongside him as you finished, and I just kept that in my mind, like just to see just to see from start to finish how you handle things and just like the level of sportsmanship you had.

So it was all very encouraging and it didn't deter me. Coming back I just had to take some time and figure out some variables that I wanted to tweak. But then on top of that, things have evolved so much. Like we're in the age of information. Like you're one of the few very elite athletes who have your Strava open, who share your training on Instagram, like you post how much, how many miles you ran this week, things of that nature.

And listening to podcasts, like for me personally, I'm self coached, so I don't have somebody that I like to report to and I just try to figure stuff out on my own. Like I use things like that. Worked for me, and then I discard things that might not necessarily benefit me. So like I've, I've, I'll be, I'm not sure [00:14:00] if, if I'm the first one to admit it, but I Strava stock all the athletes that have Strava out there.

Right. Like, why wouldn't I? That's data, that's information like I and I'm and I'm, that's probably the reason why athletes hide Strava. I personally don't because I feel like I'm a small part of this evolutionary process. I feel like when you and I are done, I'm very confident that there are gonna be several athletes that are gonna run sub 11 hour, a hundred milers.

And whether or not that's going to be me, I don't know. But to be a part of that little evolutionary change, like I am very happy and grateful to be a part of that thing. I felt like you did it on such a bigger platform because you ran. You, you ran the world record on two occasions, and then you just showed everyone like, Hey I don't come from a track background or like a crazy marathon background.

However, I have knowledge that y'all don't have just yet. And here I am for [00:15:00] this evolutionary process. Like you've moved the chain you moved the chains much further than most ultra athletes, but you're also somebody who's like, you know what? There are probably gonna be several athletes that are gonna run faster than I am.

I'm totally fine with that. I am here to share my information and to help move the sport. So I think that's really cool. Yeah. No, I, you, you knocked it outta the park with that answer. I think it was like, I was talking to Rachel Kin about this, where, 'cause like she and like Killian Kath are both in this world where these like 200 mile multi-day events are. Doing this, the, we're, we're, we're still learning a lot by what they're doing as much as we are just having like these rock solid protocols. And the hundred miler has been like that as well over the last decade or so with new innovations and just more data points to pull from.

And I do think when a sport is in that phase where we haven't reached peak competitive pressure in ultra running yet. So it's like, yeah. When you're in that [00:16:00] phase, there's just so much. Potential growth in learning from what other people are doing and even getting ideas of what maybe to research versus what is maybe a waste of time to research and.

Yeah, at some point maybe when the sport gets so competitively pressurized to the degree where now we're dealing with tiny little margins, I could see a case for kind of hiding your data a little bit more. But yeah, at this point I feel a little more comfortable, just say, Hey, let's let everyone just see what I'm doing and then learn from it and go from there.

Because at this point. Even just, even just super shoes alone are gonna be something that revolutionizes running to a large enough degree where, you know, like runs like races that like we would've done in like the early 2000 tens is just, uncomparable almost to what it, what it could be to today.

We, I think we see this in track and field and marathoning too, and it's just like, at that point it's like, why am I trying to hide this information when, it, regardless of what I do, there's gonna be [00:17:00] faster people coming down and running, running those Yeah. These races eventually anyway.

And it's a very valid point. So, and ironically enough, like you're able to contribute more to the sport by, in my opinion, sharing information versus trying to do things on your own and just be secretive about it. Per se. But no, all of that's helped. Like, I even listened to your podcast with Elof.

Who ran, what'd he run? He ran like, yeah, 1124. 26 Hill. 1126, right? And you asked him about his fueling strategy. 'cause I was there that day. I ran the 50 miler. I actually ran the 50 miler. That's right. Three weeks later I ran a hundred caves and I was trying to double and see how my body would respond.

But El love looked tremendous and you asked him about just basic nutritional things that he did. He shared like he was taking in 90 grams an hour, something like that. But, uh mm-hmm. For, and. All I did was I took el l's, like estimated [00:18:00] weight. I think he weighs 130 pounds. I divided it by my weight on 1 55, so I'm like, oh, that's like, he's like 83 to 85% of my body weight.

So okay, I'm gonna add, however, if he's taking 90 grams, I'm gonna add 17 more percent. And that's like a great, like starting point and you just alter the variables, right? But that's one small example. Like I listen to that podcast and I'm like, okay, so I'm gonna race a hundred miler in a couple months.

Like maybe that's my starting point for nutrition because I don't have a nutritionist. I'm like, okay, we have information out there, so let's see what works, what doesn't. So, it worked tremendously for me. Yeah. Well that's a great topic too. I'd be curious about what you did. Jackpot this year from a fueling standpoint.

And if that is similar to what you've been doing recently, was there a kind of a goal carbohydrate per hour that you were looking to get in? Jackpot is interesting because one loop is one point. One seven or 1.19, so [00:19:00] typically feels like every 20 or so minutes, but by the time I get to three and a half miles or three loops, I'm at, what, 24 or so minutes.

So I based it off how much nutrition I was gonna take every three loops. So, I was taking about 18 ounces every 18 ounces, every three loops. By the time I got to 10 and a half miles or 70 minutes, I had about 54 ounces. Probably giver, probably subtract an ounce or two just 'cause you can't squeeze everything outta those bottles.

So I was hydrating quite adequately. So every 70 minutes I was taken. Yeah. Like I said, over 50, definitely over 50 ounces. So for 60 minutes I was taking what, 50 ounces flat, maybe 58 to 60, or actually holding on. Sorry, the math is not math and I'm a math teacher, by the way. Let's see, you still have ultra brain fatigue.

We'll give you a pass. I still got, yeah, that's right. Okay. You'll gimme a pass right there. It's been a week, but [00:20:00] is still a little fatigued. I was prob I was taking just under 50 ounces of fluids per hour, if that's the case. For a total of 12 hours. Yeah. Okay. Wow. So you're getting quite a bit of fluids then.

Yeah, I really emphasized that. And I found out my relative sodium concentration, it's about 900 mgs per, was it like 32 or so ounces? So, I was taken, I would have powdered, I would just have fluids with powder and then I would take a sodium tablet. So I was averaging 900 milligrams for 32 ounces.

But I was. Obviously taking about 50 ounces per hour, give or take. But I was peeing a lot. I was peeing a lot at the jackpot. We're, as these races are going to progress and become more competitive, you're just gonna have to piss your pants. And that's the reality of it. Yeah. So I, I peed, I peed myself about 20 or so times.[00:21:00]

Yeah, I would say like, not ashamed. Not ashamed to admit, not ashamed to admit it. I pi I pissed myself 20 plus times, so, hey you'd be coming in here with like an 1148 or 1150, a hundred mile time if you had stopped that many times. So, yeah. Or, or, or even slower, like to imagine being 80 miles in and then you finally.

And then you go like that, I, it could just, my legs could turn into cinder blocks. Seize up. Right. We don't know. It could seize up. I wasn't gonna take that chance by any means. I'd rather piss myself than carry cinder blocks for the next 15 miles, yeah. And some, to some degree, you are on a bit of a razor's edge with that sort of thing too, where if you have momentum going into your favor, that laid into a race.

You really don't wanna break it if you, if you don't have to. And things can shift quickly. Where I describe it as like with races where I really want to get myself as far as I possibly can on that day, [00:22:00] you have a decision to make somewhere around like two thirds where you have to like, okay, I'm gonna be maybe a little more aggressive than I'd like to, and that means I could run a PR today, or it means I could blow up, or I could be a little more conservative and have a decent time, but maybe not quite get my full.

Potential outta myself that day. And if you take that first turn and you're like, all right, we're going for it today. You're just like, if you could be one random stop and leg seizing up away from all everything. Spiraling outta control. And then all of a sudden you had the wrong direction with that decision, so.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad you decided to go the route you did. Absolutely. I think one thing that did help: I had a spray of Biofreeze and around 40 or so miles. I was taken, I was using Biofreeze, probably once every three to four loops. But the spray on just helped a lot. Any time I felt just mild cramping or seizing of the legs, just grab it from the table, spray it, run a loop, like I did for whatever reason.

It helped a lot. So [00:23:00] I feel like I do a tribute if I learn if there's one takeaway from that, very specifically, like just using what is Biofreeze? It's probably the same thing as Tiger Bomb, right? Yeah, it's gonna be, it's gonna come up, use like a cooling effect to maybe help the muscles feel a little less a little less stiff and sore.

Okay. Yeah, I would say whatever perception you were getting from, it sounds like it was doing what, what you wanted it to. Yeah. Yeah. That and when I pissed myself that, that gave a cooling effect too, just trickling off my leg. It's like topical cooling, a different type of topical cooling. It does, yeah.

Different kinds of topical cooling. So. And, actually like we joke about that, but people miss this opportunity, I think sometimes where cooling is like the actual cooling of fluids evaporating off your skin or like the airflow hitting like a wet surface on your skin and creating a cooling effect.

You actually have a lot of surface area like your legs and arms. I think we often think of like, kind of like, oh, [00:24:00] our chest and our back are kinda these big surface area opportunities. But like, first of all, your legs and arms are moving, so you also get that Yeah. Quicker airflow to it too.

So it's probably not an inconsequential exposure point to you. You're, you're definitely being resourceful. We'll put it that way. Yeah. Absolutely. And I can't even. When you ran those two world records, like did you have to use the bathroom at all or were you just running for those like 11 hours and change?

Yeah, so at the Petit Center where I ran my fastest time, I didn't really have the opportunity to pee my pants because of the indoor center. So I did have to stop that time. And Uhhuh, I probably got lucky to some degree where hydration was. Balanced enough where I wasn't dehydrated enough to really impact performance in a big way.

But I was also hydrated enough where or I wasn't, I, I wasn't, I, I, I wasn't so hydrated that all of a sudden I had to stop and pee a bunch of times. So I think I stopped three times in that race for maybe a [00:25:00] total of like three and a half minutes, if I remember right. Oh, wow. Yeah. So there was some loss of time there, but not a tremendous amount.

This was in 2019. Yeah. Uhhuh. So they, the, when you ran the first world record, it was what, several years prior? Oh, so the several years prior would've just been an American record uhhuh, but, so I did American, I did well technically. In 2013, I had an American record for a hundred miles and a World record for 12 hours.

And then in 2015, I did an American record for a hundred miles. But like I. I was on, I was fading. So like I was fighting so hard at the end of that race. Like I went out maybe a, I don't know if I went out too fast so much as I made a couple moves, like in the middle of that race that probably was a little more aggressive than it needed to be.

And that last 20 miles, like I was fighting hard for seven thirties. Um mm-hmm. And when I hit a hundred miles at 1140, I just. Fell over and stopped. I didn't even bother to try [00:26:00] to see how far I could go for the next 20. Yeah. Yeah. So that one was just an American record. No added, added a 12 hour to, well, I guess technically I did a 12 hour that day.

It was just a hundred miles on the dot versus whatever. I could have gotten outta that last 19 minutes had I 19 change that I. Could have kept, technically kept going. Yeah. And then it wasn't until 2019 that I got myself to a spot where I was hitting the paces I needed to and staying on track the way I did at the Petit Center.

So, yeah, that day, that day everything clicked for whatever reason. So, I think a negative split by two minutes for the first 50, between the first 50 and the second 50 miles in a court, because I think you've been to the Petit Center before. But it's like such an interesting, unique environment where it's just like, it's got all the tangibles of variables.

We're being fast, but it's also like if things go wrong there, it spirals so fast, so like if you really have a good day there. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean it's, [00:27:00] it's funny how quickly things spiral on the short loop courses where it's like whenever something goes wrong in an ultra, I think there's a certain amount of like.

Leash you give yourself to kind of like say, okay, I need to make this adjustment. This isn't the end of the world. I just need to pivot here. I need to like to move on to the next thing and not dwell on that for whatever reason. On the track, it's just like when something goes wrong, it feels like. You are just seconds away from saying, screw it, I'm done.

And I don't know, I think there's a lot of psychology there, but Yeah. It's just different. Well, you're getting, yeah, you're getting feedback every, what if on a 400 meter track, you're getting feedback, let's just say what every hundred seconds. So if that a hundred turns into 101 hundred and two, like are you gonna have the mental fortitude to make any adjustments?

And then to get that 1 0 2 back to a hundred. And that's really the biggest challenge because you can. Run a trail race and you can have your low points, but if you're competing against somebody, they're like, they're [00:28:00] just different variables that you have to solve. But I feel like there's also just a little bit more leeway in terms of how you're feeling.

Oh, you might feel like crap during. Like one portion of Western states, however, a lot of people might be feeling the same way because there's not much shade and just things of that nature. Whereas like on the track, you're running a hundreds, you turn, it turns into 1 0 2. You might freak out a little bit or like you, you might not respond in the best way possible.

Right. And you, and like, and like you said it could, you could spiral downwards. Yeah, it's definitely a very different challenge. Both trail and road ultras are two different challenges, but if you're more time than not, like these races, a lot of the elite road ultra guys are time trialing, right?

Because. I was there this past week and I didn't really have anyone to run with. I was hoping to race with you. I was like, oh, this is great. Yeah, like, we're gonna bring some eyeballs to this race. But I went back in time trial and it was [00:29:00] just me versus myself and, and people are asking me like, Hey, what do you think about during.

The 11 plus hours, and I'm like, honestly, I'm just trying to, I'm thinking about how I'm feeling throughout the entirety of it and making sure that like I don't break down or I'm just always just very intuitive of my body and I'm listening to what my, how my body is responding and how my body's giving feedback.

Throughout the entirety of it. Yeah, it is one of those questions that I've never really found a great way to maybe answer, and people ask it a lot too. They're like, what are you thinking about on the short loop courses? And it is, it's one of those things where I think, your, that your answer is actually really interesting.

'cause I think that is what it is where you're just, you're, you're like calibrating the whole day to some degree. And that is what you're thinking about most of the time. But that doesn't feel like any sort of like. Information that you would typically be thinking about. So it's not like a, [00:30:00] an answer that is gonna be understandable to someone who's curious about it.

'cause they're just thinking like, oh, are you thinking about like, stories or like, like. His like, like different, different memories and things like that. And some of that's there, but I always find that like, I can think of maybe two or three things that stuck in my head for some reason.

And then other than that, it's just like, like you said, a lot like biofeedback analysis. Yeah. What actually I do recall, and this has happened the past two years, but once I get to that 80 mile mark, I'm, I'm operating on like half a brain cell by this time. As I'm holding on for dear life, I'll start to brainstorm jersey numbers of past football athletes.

So, for instance, if I have 20 miles to go, I'm thinking about Barry Sanders. So I thought about Barry Sanders. I thought about Peyton Manning 18 miles to go. Like it was a weird mental mind game that I was playing, but that, that's when I knew it was rough. Like, I've been thinking about Rich Gannon with 12 Miles to go, and I'm like, what?

Rich Gannon, [00:31:00] you've gone to a different sport for inspiration. You're getting to the end. I, I was literally, I, I think I missed 19, but I was, I spent that time brainstorming like, who? Any athlete that's worn number 19. And by the time I thought of something, that Mile went away. Went, came and gone.

So it was gone? Yeah. Yeah. I was calculated from miles one through 80 and then the last 20 miles I was holding on for dear life, playing mental gymnastics. That's funny. Yeah. Yeah. That's what you gotta do. And, to some degree it's interesting too because you don't necessarily go into the race thinking, oh yeah, when I get to mile 80, I'm gonna start just focusing my attention on, on football jersey numbers.

It's probably something that just popped into your head along the way, and you're like, okay, well that's a. A convenient enough distraction, let's go with it. And, then you feed your mind. Yeah. Yeah. And then even as you're saying that, I think that, at least right now, trail ultras have grown exponentially and road ultras are, although adjacent to [00:32:00] trail, it's, it hasn't grown in the way that trail running has.

But however, I'm still very confident that by the time I retire there are gonna be several people like myself, like, like you that are. Gonna to tow the line at Jackpot, right? And then it'll, it'll be more of a race than time trialing. And I feel like when that day comes, I'll, I'll not think about Jersey numbers.

Hopefully I'm thinking about who I'm racing against and what moves I need to make. So if you're stuck time trialing these things, you're gonna have to resort to thinking about Rich Ganon with 12 miles to go, yeah. Versus chasing you, he shows up next year. Yeah. I, I, I need to get back there.

I think it's a fun event and one I'd like to do again, so hopefully we can both be on the starting line next year and, and give a big, big push for another course record. Maybe a few other people can jump in and we can have a multi-person throw down. That'd be fun. I hope [00:33:00] so too.

I think, if the stars align and you and I both do it, it's gonna be one of those things that have, follow that exponential growth pattern where, oh, you have two. Elite Road, ultras Road ultra athletes running, and then the following year you're gonna have three, four things of that nature. Like me, I'm very confident I just turned 35.

I'm hoping to do this and retire when I'm 41. So when I'm 41 in that final year of. Hard road, ultra running or trail running, whatever it may be. But more specifically for road ultras, like when I tow the line, I'm sure there are gonna be several different athletes like myself that are gonna be there.

Like I'm very confident about that. But it's gonna take probably four or five, six years. Yeah. Yeah, it might, it might take some time to grow. I do. I do wonder about the sport as a whole too, because we have an accessibility problem at least now even more, I think, we always have to some degree with the trails.

'cause it's like you've got these [00:34:00] unique areas that oftentimes require travel, and then there's the course specifics. But earlier on when I first started ultra running, I felt like that was less of an issue because there was just. So much. There were so many weird variables going on, and probably inefficiencies that it, it almo, like everyone was playing with a, a short deck of cards, so to speak.

Now it's gotten to the professionalization on the trail sides, like if you're gonna race at like Western states or UTMB. A certain percentage of your competition is going to be training on the course training specifically for that event. They may have like all sorts of things lined up that create an advantage that sort of separates it from, or just makes it less accessible for somebody who's on the come up and doesn't have that professional support yet to do properly.

And I think the nice thing about these races, like. The short loop, like jackpot type courses or getting on a track in a timed event is the training terrain is incredibly accessible. So whether you [00:35:00] train for the jackpot on the jackpot course or around your neighborhood block is really not that consequential.

So yeah. I like the accessibility side of that potential there as the sport grows and people try to find like, well, what do I wanna do within this and, and where some opportunity to grow and maybe take advantage of being at the top of the sport in an area that isn't quite as refined as maybe the Western states or u TBS of the world.

I like the idea that some kid, like in the Midwest, hasn't seen a mountain ever in their life and maybe like. Like has less resources available to them. Could just in theory with enough time, train and, and become quite good at a fast Runable a hundred miler. Oh, absolutely. If you look back at Black Canyon it had the most competitive field ever, right?

And some of these athletes had training camps at Black Canyon to prepare for the race because one, it's incredibly competitive. And two, you wanna turn every stone over on that trill and just to get a feel of what it's gonna be like, right? [00:36:00] Whereas. You have more flexibility training for something like jackpot or a track because you can run loops around something, right?

Like a residential neighborhood. So I think that's what people haven't really realized or really put together, like, Hey, road Ultras are far more accessible, at least at this time than Tri Ultras. And you want to really think about, Hey, as an athlete, do I have the resources to have a training camp at this specific LO location?

And do I have the time to do it right? And I have certain responsibilities, be it a wife, kids or cap, whatever it may be that you have to tend to. So you have to uproot everything to go to that said place, train, and race, right? So, uh mm-hmm. That is one thing, as you just said, like that I knew but didn't really like to realize to the greatest extent.

I'm like, wow, road ultras are incredibly accessible. [00:37:00] Yeah. Yeah. I like that aspect about it too, where it's pretty easy to find a spot to train specifically if you need to. And I, I think for me it was just somewhat just intuitively more enjoyable for one reason or another, is like the running aspect of it versus the kind of the very trained stuff.

Not that I don't like the very trained stuff too, but for whatever reason, like even when I had access to more mountain training. Stuff. I still felt myself getting pulled back to the flat runnable stuff, so. You, you, you can't fight what you're, what you, you're craving, at the end of the day.

Yeah. Right. You are very unique in the sense that you live in Arizona, so you can train for something like Javelina, year out, but for you, you always just come back to the track or something that has loops. Yeah. So we're in Austin now, which is a little more a little more restricted in terms of access to different stuff.

But yeah, we were in Arizona for four years and at that point I had access to basically anything I wanted, if I wanted to train on trails, up and down mountains. They were all like really great options all within a [00:38:00] couple hours. Some of them really, really close that we could get onto to just get like.

Some decent trail running in on like a random weekday or things like that. But yeah, even during that phase, I found myself still wanting to keep still wanting to keep at least one race per year where it was like, all right, this is a flat fast course and really it's just how long can I run and how fast can I run?

And like hiking and walking weren't in the game plan at all, so. Yeah, it's always been something that I've stayed interested in. Would you ever come back to Javelina? Yeah. Yeah. I would like to go to Javelina. The biggest issue with Javelina for me is essentially I'm probably picking between Tunnel Hill Javelina and Desert Solstice realistically for an A race.

So, I end up probab. I'd like to do all three of those every year if I could. Yeah. But you end up having to maybe pick one of those three every year in order to really really do them right. [00:39:00] But how velina would be fun to do, I would, I just turned 40 this year, so I do probably have to be a little bit more aware of just when it, when am I gonna get to a point where my fastest hundred mile potential is not on the table any longer?

I keep thinking that there's a number there, but then the women have been pushing that further back with Katriana Jennings at 45, running the world record for a hundred miles. And then yeah. And then at Jackpot why am I blanking on her name? Ashley Paulson. Oh, Ashley Paulson.

Yeah. Ashley Paulson, yeah. Breaking the record. And I think she's like 43 or 44, so it's like, yeah. It's like, who knows, who knows where that line is at this point. Yeah. Seriously. She's made me rethink my approach to Racing Road Ultras because she, so full context, she. Stated that she wanted to set the world record, and she's incredibly energetic.

And from what I recall, when the gun went off we were all running together for like half a mile, but she was so loud, so like she [00:40:00] was just like praising other runners and just had all this energy and she's a great gal. But in my head I'm like, oh my God, she's going to. Burn out. She's gonna burn out.

This is half a mile and this is the energy you're bringing. And so I gave her maybe less than 1% chance at that time, and she's a great gout. But through the race, like I remember being like 60 or so miles in, I think I only looped her once or twice, I can't recall. But I was doing the math in my head and I'm like, is she on?

12 o pace is this Yeah. Is it really happening? Or does she go to the bathroom? Does she drop out? Like, what's going on? And then I bumped into her and she had the same exact energy, and she's like, she was just giving me positive affirmations, this and that. And I'm like, I'm like, how the hell are you this energized?

Like, anytime somebody says, good job, I just, I, I do this just like, just to acknowledge them. Yeah. But for me personally, in, in watching you, I'm [00:41:00] like. If you don't talk, that's less energy expenditure. But I guess it depends on who you are as a person, because for her, like cheering others on and seeing her family.

She feeds off it, she, she feeds off of it, right. So it gave me a different perspective. But she finished what, like 40, 45 minutes after I did. And she, I saw the, I saw her finish and she jumped to her husband and she was like walking around while I was on my deathbed getting drug tested. Like, I'm like, maybe I haven't done this right.

Maybe I haven't been doing this right. Maybe I just have to be very energetic and cheerful. After we considered that, after what she had done. Yeah. It is funny, the different personalities and I think it is about what is gonna keep you positive, I think is a big piece to it. And people are just gonna have different personalities where I think sometimes I think that would be too much for like, that might feel, it's probably just like introverts and extroverts and then everything in between where some people are gonna feed off [00:42:00] of that energy and just snowball and other people, if they did that, it would be like.

Alright. I just exhausted myself and now I need a break. And, wherever you land on that spectrum is gonna dictate whether you should take that approach or not. Yeah. That, if anything, even just having a low point at Javelina or something Right. And then watching David finish and just seeing highlights of his running, being up there and, i, it does go, you don't have to be Ashley or David, but. You can definitely find positives in those low points, right? Because for me, at least what I need to work on personally, when I had those low points, I had like very negative feedback or just like very, just like, things that didn't necessarily benefit me, right?

So I think that's what I need to work on. If I wanna race like a, a golden ticket race, like Halina or something. Yeah. Are you thinking of doing halina this year? Yeah, absolutely. I, people have seen me [00:43:00] time trial jackpot on several occasions, and I don't think people wanna watch me do that.

But to go for a golden ticket race and to compete against some of the best runners out there is a different challenge. And I need these challenges in order to grow. I did velina two years ago and I finished fourth. And at the time I was confident in my training. I was confident in myself and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna win this race.

But I came up short and I lost to phenomenal runners. Looking back, I lost to Da David Roach. Jeff Mogavero, who's top 10 at Western States. Dan Green won Coca right to finish behind those guys. Like, I should be proud of that, but that's also not my ceiling because there's a lot of information that I don't know just yet, right?

Like I am my own nutritionist. I'm for the most part my own strength training coach. I worked with Sammy out at Golden Endurance to help me with my knee issue. [00:44:00] But aside from that, like I'm trying to figure stuff out on my own and I am considering, finding or looking for a trail coach who can just guide me on the nuances of tri so I can bring a more refined version of myself because this sports evolved so much and like all these pro athletes have coaches and are just doing all these little things that go beyond running. So I wanna attempt Halina and I. I wanna go for the wind, that would be great. But I have a good base, right? We have a good base.

We're, we're sub 12 hour, a hundred mile runners. And that's not the issue. We just gotta fine tune the other variables and get that right. So if that's my starting point, great. I'd much rather try to explore how I can feel adequately or what strength training I need to do versus like, okay, how can I run faster?

So I feel like that ceiling's almost there. Yeah, yeah. You, you, you may not benefit a tremendous amount from getting faster at this point, [00:45:00] and it might just be like, how do I get more specific with the demands of this event you're doing? I think that's a great way to look at it, especially for someone with your background where you've run some fast marathons and stuff too, right?

Like you're. If I remember right. I think you're like a two teen, something in the two teens, right? For America. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I've run two 16s. I've made it, I've made it, I've made it to the USA outdoors in the 10 K. Granted it was on a down year, but I ran 29 flat and I was able to just squeeze in.

Wow. So it is really interesting to compete against like Lopez Le Mon and then run these like ultra races, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's incredible. And you, you were on a two 16 prior to super shoes too, right? Like that was. You would've been so, who knows how fast you are in some of the premium foams nowadays where, maybe you do like a two 14 back with something like that.

So that's incredible. Like, yeah, I don't think speed is gonna be the thing that moves you, moves you further along. It's probably more execution and race [00:46:00] specific stuff that likely pushes you to another level. Yeah. But there's nothing wrong with having a more efficient running economy, like to do fast stuff. True. And I think you don't wanna lose it. Yeah. You don't wanna lose it. You definitely don't wanna lose it. And from what I recall, I remember, 'cause I listened to your podcast with Joe Rogan and he was under the impression that the longer the distance, the harder the training is and you're like.

Honestly, running training for a marathon or a 10 K is a lot harder than training for a hundred miles, and in my opinion, a marathon block or a 10 K block when you have to grind out K repeats or two mile repeats when you're just oh, at VO two max, that is, yeah, more exhausting than clicking off six forties for 20 miles and calling it a day, in my opinion.

I don't know if you still feel the same Uhhuh. Yeah, no, I, and I think, some of it is an enjoyment factor too where I was when I was in, when I was running in [00:47:00] college, it was like when I thought about what workouts I looked forward to, it was the long run. That was the one I looked forward to.

The other ones, it was like, okay, these are memes to end. These are type two fun. These are like, I'm not gonna love doing it. I'm gonna be happy about it after I finish it. Like we get with a lot of those hard things. But generally speaking, the one I was looking forward to is the long run.

So I do think it's like. There are probably people that would rather hate the long run and they would just love to do repeats. Yeah. And they maybe aren't optimal for an ultra marathon and would be better off training for like 10 Ks and half marathons and things like that. But yeah, I, I, I think you're right.

I think generally speaking, if you find yourself running a hundred mile races as frequently as we do, we probably do appreciate it. The enjoyment factor of the long run may be a little bit more than average and maybe a little bit less so with the interval stuff. Yeah, absolutely. Interval training is intense, more specifically for like a 10 K, right, where you have to be calculated and you have to hit these [00:48:00] splits.

Whereas if you run a loop and you're like two seconds off, you run 6 42 versus six 40, it's not the end of the world. You're chilling. You have music on, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. More times than not. But I'm curious, do you feel like you have a, a, a pr in the mile in you? Do you feel like if you were to just put 12 weeks into a training block to do these, like track specific things and then to run an all out mile, do you feel like you can pr in the mile do.

Yeah, probably, because I haven't done one since high school. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. I think I, I ran, I, I actually, I probably actually have I might have some faster mile splits in training that I just haven't accounted for. 'Cause I ran a four 40 mile in high school and I haven't ran it since, so.

I am pretty certain I could get under that, but. Maybe the, I guess maybe the other way to look at it would be like had I given the mile more attention in like my. Early twenties, mid [00:49:00] twenties, what would I have gotten to? And then would I be able to get back to that? And that answer might be no.

'cause I might just be getting to the point where like, my fastest, mild days are behind me at 40. So, how about you? This is, are you, you got mild PR in your future? Well, this is ironic because you're one of the fastest road ultra guys of all time, but the irony lies in the fact that you haven't tried a mile in over 20 years.

I think that's mind blowing, right? I feel like every standard runner, like a, at least a casual runner goes on the track and tries to time trial something like a mile to 5K. So, you'll, you'll definitely pr Yeah, and I, I think you should do that because. Then the narrative is, Hey, it'd be fun.

I peed in the mile in my forties. I'm Zach Bitter. That's true. That would go viral. I bet. My forties. Yeah. Yeah. Make a good YouTube video. I, I, I think, in Austin there's no shortage of. Influencers would probably help me record that. Yeah. Right. Get somebody [00:50:00] on an e-bike and record you run that mile.

But dude, I am, it's funny. I think you should, I think you should do a sweepstakes where you have people guess your mile PR and then you train for it, and then whoever's the closest like, train for it. It would be interesting just to block off like 12 weeks and say, okay, I'm just going to, just gonna immerse myself in mile training and see what, what comes with it.

It would be fun. And, I think they enjoy that. You put bad ideas in my mind. Rash. Look. Look, I think if you train for the mile and pr, I think it's like the perfect segue into like the hundred mile or a hundred mile training because you've done something so intense and so precise. And you've taken a break from it, and now you go back into training for a hundred mile race with a very, what I would assume to be more efficient running economy, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I could probably roll that into some long intervals and then some. Ultra specific long runs and then be pretty ready to go at that point. I think that's probably, there's probably some truth to that for sure. So food for thought. [00:51:00] I've, I've taken a lot of information off your Strava and your podcasts, so maybe if I have anything to contribute for this, for your athletic endeavors.

Like try to, try to time trial the mile. Well, I'm, I'm sure if nothing else, people who listen to this, I'll get a few messages saying, Hey, we heard that episode. You should totally do this. Fingers crossed. Yeah. You've definitely given me some things to consider. Well, the funny thing is, I was just talking to Rachel Rakin last week and she was trying to talk me into doing a Coca Donut two 50. So I've got within a span of one week, one guest trying to get me to do 250 miles and the other one trying to get me one mile and. You're, you're gonna be like, Hey guys I had a guest try to get me to run a mile fast. Another guest who tried to get me to run two 50.

I'm just gonna meet you in the middle and I'm gonna train for another hundred miles. Yeah. That's what will ultimately happen. Yeah. You gave me a really good [00:52:00] out for that. Awesome. Zach. Zach, one thing to note, I started with 70% battery life. Now I'm at 10%. Oh, okay. Do you need to get going pretty quick here?

I'm trying to brainstorm if there's a way that I can get, maybe plug in my phone. It's an iPhone 12. I should have known better, but I was like, you know what, this is like a good hour. I'm sure it'll last and there's like 30%, but yeah, we're at 9%. If I have like a good solid three minutes in me, does that work for you?

Yeah. Yeah. We can wrap things up too, I think. I think we've covered some cool stuff, so, yeah. Yeah. We can def we can wrap stuff up and I do, maybe I'll ask you this before we let you go, if you said Javelina, are you gonna do any racing between now and then? I'm gonna run Desert Rats.

It's a trail race out in Northern Colorado. I did it two years ago. I actually took a break from trail running because I developed chronic tendonitis in my knee and [00:53:00] I just didn't know how to, oh, attack it. I did all the research that I could have done, but I really just needed a physical therapist.

But I'm relatively healthy. I wanna get some good trail running. In the end, I want to be a. Elof says it best roads, trails, whatever, right? Like, I wanna show that I have a very vast skillset where I can time trial a hundred milers around a loop, but I can also run California carpet and run trails fast too.

So I've, I wanna be that. I guess our version of a hybrid athlete is a road trail guy. So that's my goal, but I feel every year. Cool. Every year I do want to, I want to run one Road Ultra because I feel like that's where I move the needle the most and where we can get, gain momentum and get more athletes to do it right.

So, it would be like a race like a jackpot. In a perfect world, I would love to get a golden ticket [00:54:00] at Javelina, run a jackpot with you in February and then do western states. Right. I would love to see you do Western states. Yeah, that'd be great to see you get to do that one. Yeah, that would be awesome.

Awesome. So that's the goal. Very cool. Before I let you go, Raj, where can people find you? Social media, websites, anything like that? Social media, Instagram, lightning, Raj, and that's about it. You can also shoot me an email. Awesome. Well, Raj paul dot panu@gmail.com. So more responsive there. There you go.

Awesome. Well, thank you so much for taking some time outta your weekend, Raj. It's been awesome to chat and catch up and, and I'm super inspired with your trajectory through the Runnable a hundred Mile stuff. I love the way that you've stuck with it and I was so stoked to see you cross that finish line in 1138 last weekend.

Thank you so much, Zach. Thanks for having me on and I'm honored, so Right on. Take care, Raj. Right on. Cheers brother. Take care.