Episode 471: Rory Linkletter | Sub-60 Half Marathon & Marathon Training Evolution
Elite marathoner Rory Linkletter discusses his historic sub-60 half marathon at Houston, training philosophy changes, and preparation for upcoming races. Rory is coming off a big year, where he placed sixth at Boston in 2:07:02, second at Ottawa in 2:08:31 (winner recently provisionally suspended for doping), ninth at Chicago in 2:06:49.
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Timestamps:
00:00 Highlight Reel
00:47 Podcast Introduction and Announcements
02:40 Interview with Rory: Recent Achievements
04:14 Training and Off-Season Insights
14:14 Double Threshold Training Approach Explained
22:48 Breakthrough in Boston
24:21 Racing Strategy and Goals
31:38 Fueling Strategies for Marathons
32:15 Adjusting Fuel Intake Based on Race Conditions
33:08 Future Fueling Goals and Training Adjustments
34:21 Discussion on Professional Runners' Fueling Practices
36:16 Insights on Marathon Training and Racing
37:07 Upcoming Race Plans and Goals
38:31 Partnership with Puma and Shoe Innovations
51:18 The Importance of Training Locations
54:17 Reflections and Future Plans
Episode Transcript:
[00:00:00] Alright, Rory, welcome back. Good to be back. I think the last time we spoke was right after Seville in 2024, right? Yeah, it was a fun episode. I remember you had just qualified I, or I think, you had a time that was pretty. Solid in terms of getting you on the Canadian Olympic team. So you had your site set on the buildup for Paris at that time.
But yeah, a lot's happened since then. Yeah, it's been nearly two years and I feel like a whole lifetime has been lived since then. But yeah. I like that we're getting on here after big moments like that and like this past weekend. Yeah. Maybe we just kicked things off with this last weekend.
So that's the fresh stuff. You, officially became a sub 60 minute half marathoner Canadian National record, if I'm not mistaken, too, first Canadian to go under 60 minutes, correct? Correct. Right on. Yeah. And you came down our way here in Texas to do that, the Houston Half Marathon.
So I remember the news stories popping up when you crossed. I was like, okay. Yeah, that's a nice little update [00:01:00] for Rory. We gotta have him back on here to chat about this and kind of everything that went into last year. Yeah, for sure. I was really stoked with the result in Houston.
It's obviously one of those barriers. Has meant a lot for a long time and those are always the most fun to break in running like a sub four mile, sub 60 half is obviously a different level than that, but whenever you have a nice round number that's fun to crack even, like for probably many of your listeners, being a sub three hour marathoner is a big deal.
Maybe it's a sub two hour, half marathon or there, those round numbers just feel really good. Yeah, some nice milestones, but I do wanna back up a little bit because there's that race itself, but then there's everything you did last year between, Boston Marathon felt like a breakthrough race for you, and then you followed that up with Ottawa Marathon, not that short or shortly thereafter fed into Chicago Marathon.
It seemed like you connected on all three of those marathons, which sounds pretty big. [00:02:00] Year of racing, which I know comes with a really big year of training. So really we're, as far as rinse and repeat training cycles and things like that. We're really not that far away from Chicago.
So was there like an off season after Chicago in a reset period? Yeah. I'm just curious what kind of led to the sub 60 half and what that kind of says about maybe what's coming up. Yeah. There was a real, like substantial break by my terms. I don't love time off. I take it reluctantly because I know it's good for me.
I think it was three weeks, no workouts, and each week for that post Chicago block was like a very. Gentle, like an increase in running frequency. I think I ran three times the week after the race, four, five, the second, sixth, the third, and again, no doubles, just like singles. Really easy running and yeah, for me, three weeks, no workouts, no real training, just running to run and.
Doing very little volume was [00:03:00] like I was antsy. And then even when I came back, it wasn't like I was thrown into the fire immediately. There was still a very gradual approach off of that. So I really was like six weeks without what I would consider normal training. And once I got into that normal training, there wasn't that much time till Houston and I, I did feel like I was cramming for an exam 'cause I did want Houston to be a test and to be a big moment. I thought, this is, you don't go to Houston without the desire to run fast. I was taught as an opportunity and tried to take advantage of that. Was there a point during the race at Houston where you started getting confident about breaking 60?
Was there any signs early on that it was gonna be a little bit better than normal? Yeah, I would say like even 5K in with the pace we were running, the comfortability I had at that rhythm was something I'd never felt in a half marathon really before at that [00:04:00] pace, obviously. I've gone out fast in halves and felt like I was drowning and this was very calm at that moment.
And that was a really encouraging moment for me to get to, five miles and then six miles and then seven miles and still feel like I had my head on pretty straight. And the time was well under 60 minutes at that point. And the only fear left was. If anyone who's listening or you yourself ever runs the Houston half is the roundabout at eight and a quarter before you head back towards downtown Houston.
It's always the most challenging stretch of the race. For whatever reason, the wind always blows in your face as soon as you come outta that roundabout. And that's like the point in the race as well where things have probably started to feel pretty hard naturally. And yeah, I was able to hang on. Really well. I didn't die, but I also wasn't full of life after that. I was just relying on the strength I [00:05:00] had built up and was able to hold it all together all the way through the line. Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting because I think like the way you described your kind of off season after Chicago where you were compared to what you're normally doing, it's a massive reduction in training inputs, but it's not alright, I'm gonna take a couple weeks and just throw my legs up.
Not move, not do anything. Like I when I was in college, this was a while ago at this point, back in like the early two thousands, we did these off seasons where it's like kind of two weeks of no running. Yeah. And at the time I think that's kinda what they thought was probably the move to hit a reset after a cross country season or a track season or something like that.
Now, I think it's more, and the way I like to program off season is I give myself a couple weeks of no structure where I'm not forcing myself to do anything, but I'm gonna do a few test runs here and there just to see where the body's at. Maybe join some group runs or things like that just to socialize and keep my body moving a little bit.
And also focus on just loading some of [00:06:00] like tendons and like Achilles tendons and things like that. 'cause so much of that stuff like. De programs almost to the degree where if you ramp back into things, then after that you're almost like more likely to get yourself hurt or more likely to feel like you got some sort of like fatigue to catch up on versus and maybe more of an abbreviated off season as far as those are maybe considered, but then a slower ramp back up to things that you have a larger block of time where you don't feel like you're in the fire the way you are during peak training, but you're also not really just. Totally stationary for any long period of time. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I always find hard breaks from running are a lot harder to come back from, and especially when you look at it from an injury prevention standpoint.
I think you're most susceptible to injury when re ramping your training up and. I've felt that every time I've gone into a major build towards something, the first maybe quarter of that build is the hardest to stay on top of. Once I get into the middle, I feel like I'm. [00:07:00] My body finds a homeostasis in the amount of work I'm asking it to do, and I get more and more confident. Hey, we're gonna, we're gonna be okay.
We're gonna make it, we're gonna make it to this race. Whereas I start almost every build being like, okay, there's this thing I'm working through. There's that thing I'm aware of. And there's a little bit of this dance of trying to ramp up things without having something go awry. Yeah.
Yeah, it makes sense. I like it too. I think it just, it makes the transitions a little smoother and things like that too. And I, the way I like the mental side of it, it's always interesting to me too. 'cause I almost feel like it just flows way better where sometimes I need a mental break from.
That really rigorous training where you know, you get to that point in training where you've surpassed the part where, okay, this is all just fun and games too. Okay, this one I'm gonna have to force myself through, or this one I'm not really looking forward to doing. And you need a light at the end of the tunnel from that stuff after a certain amount of time.
So when you have that little [00:08:00] more drawn out, gradual build back up, then you feel like you've still got that relative flexibility compared to it mentally. And I always find them, but my brain is just really wired to want to go and hit the real hard workouts again. Yeah, exactly.
It's, for me, it's always about trying to hold back that urge and try to get to the point where you're antsy to do it again. And that's all, you're almost like, have a little bit of panic. I need to get back out there. I feel like I'm, I, did I forget how to run fast or something? And the answer is always, you're fine.
And no, you didn't forget how to run fast. But there is a benefit to me. Like a moment where you feel like you've, what you've rested too long, that's when it's the perfect time to, to really ramp things back up again. Did you have a workout before Houston where it signaled like.
Alright, sub sixties on the table, this is what I'm gonna go for. That kind of gave you the confidence to set that target. Yeah. Yeah. I think I had three and each one built on each [00:09:00] other. I did eight by mile up here in Flagstaff, so high altitude with two 30 rest. So generous rest, but. At four 30 to 4 33 per mile.
So that's a little faster than when I ended up running in Houston. And that was the point of it was to feel like the over paced by just a tad and in a manageable enough rep length where, you know, you can't fake it, but you gotta grit through it a little bit. And then I did a PACE job at the Marathon project where I went 28 K at slower than pace at 2 0 8 pace.
So 64 minutes halfway through. And then took them a couple minutes longer to give myself like one longer, more sustained effort. And then 10, no, 12 days out from the race I did three by three miles. Building towards starting a little slower than half marathon pace and then really trying to find it in the workout.
So rep one was more controlled. Rep two was, let's see if we can find exactly what that half marathon zone is. And then rep three, [00:10:00] same thing, but don't be afraid to squeeze a little bit if you can. And yeah, that workout probably more than the other two, was like, okay, you can't fake three miles worth of reps, and that was at sub 60 pace.
So you're ready. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. That's cool to hear. And I think the other thing I always like to think about when you have a race like that is it can be very easy to fixate on what you did leading up to that race versus what you've been doing for essentially like your entire running career.
But more specifically, probably the last couple years of training, especially if it was very consistent. In your case, you also had a lot of good races leading into that. So I know since we chatted last, you had switched coaches, which I imagine came with some different training inputs or maybe a little bit of a different philosophy.
I, is there a certain type of training philosophy that you're able to share that you've been. Playing around with these last couple years? Yeah, I would say so. I switched to John Green after the [00:11:00] Olympics not by my choice, but Ryan stepped away from coaching, so it forced my hand. I had to scramble and find somebody to work with.
And luckily fate had it that I. One of the first people I talked to was John Green, and he's a local guy here in Flagstaff, has coached the likes of Molly Sidle to her Olympic medal. And I just liked the energy I had witnessed outta John when I saw him coaching his other athletes. And I was his first male pro that he ever coached.
And yeah, I sat down with him, was impressed, and liked some of the things that I knew he did. Which from what I had heard from the outside and what I had seen is, he's a high volume guy. He believes in just mileage as a booster of fitness, and also one of the people that.
Has was an early adopter of doing double threshold training for longer races. So a lot of marathoners still don't do a ton of double threshold. Some do, but it's become all the craze in the 5K, 10K world, but a [00:12:00] little less in the roads has lagged back, whether it be for reasons of the difference in how you need to train for them or whatnot.
But yeah, those two components have been the biggest shift since the last time we spoke. My volume has seen about a 10% increase macro and, within builds and within a whole year. Like you just look at it and then yeah, double threshold being like a staple every 10 to 14 days-ish. In my training.
Yeah. So when you're structuring those, are you doing the, like the two days per week where you're doing double threshold sessions or are you just doing a single session per week that has the top and bottom? Not even every week it's more like a 10 to 12. Ish day cycle. So I'm gonna do the double threshold tomorrow, Friday, and I'll probably do it again, but won't do it again until the following, like the, not the next Tuesday, but the following Tuesday.
So 10 or 12 days later, whatever that ends up being. And every now and then you'll get two in, like a week span, but we're [00:13:00] more sprinkled in, not that. Approach of it. Oh, we just do double threshold twice a week and it's just hammering you a threshold. Threshold. Our goal is to do those workouts so that we can do more well, taking a little less out of the body.
So it's it. We see those as like easier days actually in the training, but they accomplish a lot. Like it doesn't take much to recover from that day, but you get, for me, anywhere between 12 and 15 miles of threshold work in a day. Yeah. I love that you said like that's the way you're doing it too.
'cause my fear always when some of these different training systems pop up is people tend to gravitate to either part of it or they see it as the end all be all. And then I think you get yourself in a situation where you eventually just create a deficit somewhere by hyper focusing on one thing a little bit too much.
Yeah. And really, one of the [00:14:00] fun parts about endurance training is doing the right things, but then eventually. Finding okay, what, where's my weakness now? Because I've been doing so much of this, and when you're subbing it in and out like that, you're pulsing it in and trying to maybe extract the value from that, but not necessarily at the opportunity cost of other things that would maybe also move the needle for you.
Yeah, and for a while I was pretty anti double threshold for marathoning because in my mind I was like why would you? Not just do it in one session where you can get that high fatigue resistance feeling. And I still believe that those sessions are a vital part of marathon training.
One of the hardest things about the marathon is surviving the distance and being able to keep your energy and your legs in the game late. And so there is a lot of value in doing big one-off sessions, but I find that the double threshold work for me specifically has. Bridged an aerobic fitness gap that I [00:15:00] didn't have prior and just gave me the ability to do a little bit more on, in a bigger picture of just stuff in this zone.
Yeah. Yeah. That was one of the things that I shifted on through my running career was just understanding the value of those bigger sessions, but then also understanding how few of them you actually need. Yeah. So it, and they're exciting and they're fun workouts, so it's really hard to.
Kind of pull them off. But if you are rinsing and repeating those two frequently, then I think you do get into that space where now all of a sudden you start not looking forward to anymore. You start not getting excited about them anymore. Yep. And then physiologically too, I think you just, that's maybe one of those things where like the minimum efficient dosage of it is probably gonna give you more opportunities to, to work on other things.
Yep. And then you get results like you've had, it's a high, it's a super high cost workout. Like anytime you do. In one session between 12 and 15 miles of volume at race pace or at marathon effort, it's so large I don't know if the right word is metabolic cost [00:16:00] or whatnot. I don't know, but it will take a long time to recover from that session and be able to do something high quality again.
And if you're doing those every 10 to 14 days, like I've done in previous training cycles. It can wear on you and it can take away from the other things. Whereas when I'm doing these double thresholds every 10 to 14 days I, the next session is not compromised at all, and I don't have to be fresh going into it either.
Yeah. Are you structuring the double thresholds in any specific way that you can share? Yeah. It's really not that flashy. We don't, we basically do the same thing every time. It's with the only variable that we shift. Is the rep length by very little. For example, the fitter I am the longer the reps stay.
So in the morning that can be anywhere between a one mile rep and a two mile rep. And when I'm feeling really good, sometimes it's more fun to just knock 'em all out in two mile reps or start with twos and then transfer to [00:17:00] ones. If things start to feel a little bit harder and in the morning it's usually seven or eight miles of volume, that's the goal.
And then in the PM. Usually starting with a ceiling of a mile, sometimes 2K. If I'm really dialed in, I'll start with a 2K and if I feel really good, I'll just stay at 2K and do all of the reps at 2K in length. But if I'm feeling like, Hey I'd rather actually run these reps a little faster and still stay in my threshold, then maybe I'll drop the distance to a K, be able to run a couple seconds per kilometer faster while keeping the blood lactate levels really in the right zone.
Are you testing blood lactate during those sessions or are you more I've got the perceived effort of this dialed in. I know how to do it? A little bit of both. We do take blood probably two out of every three times we do double the threshold. There's the odd time where, you know, we don't, and.
Then we rely on perceived effort and I've gotten better and better at knowing what my blood is gonna be when I'm in these workouts [00:18:00] based on how I feel. So I am starting to trust that I do actually know the threshold, but it is nice to get that affirmation sometimes. I think that a big breakthrough that happened for me and my Boston and Chicago builds specifically is when I was doing all these double threshold sessions within the marathon block.
Being able to measure the improvement in fitness in holy crap, these paces are now reading 2.5 to 3.0 millimoles, whereas they were closer to four last year. This exact pace, like this exact type of session, similar conditions, everything else is the same, but I'm clearly more efficient at this effort now.
Yeah. Yeah. That is cool to see. I love that when you can use that data to follow up and really almost objectively show okay, I'm not just. Imagining these programs are having good days or better days and things like that. It's, you can do the way I like to look at, it's like these tools, if they, if you start getting [00:19:00] multiple tools pointing in the same direction, you can just put much more faith in it.
And I think from a confidence standpoint, when you're on the starting line and then progressing through a marathon or a half marathon, then you know, those are all data points that your brain can almost intuitively start pulling from out there to say Hey, I belong here. This isn't something I should be.
Be worried about not going my way. I can make this happen. Yeah, for sure. Cool. Yeah, so for Boston, looking at that race, I felt like that was maybe one that really. You really popped up a whole nother level from where you had been at before. Was that kind of how you perceived that race for last year?
Yeah, I would title it The Breakthrough of Boston, and, I do a little bit of my own content on the side and that was what we named breakthrough in Boston, I think is what we called the YouTube video that recapped that race. And I think that's appropriately named. 'cause I think the breakthrough happened in training, but.
With the marathon, you can't prove it until you've done it in a race, there's a lot of people that [00:20:00] talk about how, I'm a two, oh whatever guy. I just haven't put it all together yet, or haven't had the opportunity yet. So the race was a kind of affirmation for a breakthrough that we could feel was happening in training.
Yeah. Yeah. And then having that race at that time of the year, I think too is just, it sets you up to be in a unique situation. 'cause 2 0 7, 2 0 7 low at Boston is in that spot where, when you start thinking of okay, on a flat course with the same performance, I'm probably at least a little bit faster than this.
And then, the gap between you and just. Where you need to be competing at some of these big races is very small. Did you have any sort of like shift in the way you pick your goals at races after Boston in terms of, alright, maybe this isn't just, alright, I gotta run my race and go for a PR versus I wanna mix it up with some of these guys and see what happens.
Yeah, I'm, I've completely changed one thing and that the [00:21:00] one thing is that. I now race marathons. I don't pace marathons. That's the way I view it, is I go into the race with the goal of being fit enough to do whatever it takes to be in the race. Right now, Chicago's a different beast because it's a paced race like they have paced groups.
But I personally feel like I thrive best in non paced races like Houston. I loved that we didn't have a pacer, and that there was a little bit of unpredictability and variability in what was gonna happen throughout the race. Boston will be the same. And I remember going into Boston being like, I hope it's fast, but like I'm fine with whatever.
I hope it's so fast. Like I wanted it to be just breakneck speed and I was confident that I was fit enough to be aggressive. And I feel like that's the best place to be in, is to be in a position where you don't have to use caution. You can just go out there and let it fly and see what happens.
There's gonna be really good days when you have that mentality. And then there's probably gonna be days where it's not as good. And my goal is to [00:22:00] continue to raise my floor while also trying to raise my ceiling and being more consistent. And I feel like I've really started to dial that in this last year.
If you look at my three marathons I ran last year, I think that the gap in performance level was minimal. Chicago. It was more circumstantial, like not as good of a setup for me as Boston. I think my Boston performance was the best, but that's because it broke my way in a lot of ways. Like I was able to be in a group that was really good for me for a lot longer, where Chicago.
I got detached way earlier than I wanted to and ran the last 12 miles of the race alone, so I think I was better in Chicago, but the performance wasn't better because the race didn't break my way. Whereas Boston, it broke my way a little bit more. And looking at Ottawa, very similar. One guy beat me in the race and that guy made a hard move at a time where I wasn't ready to match it.
And yeah, it was, I think I did everything I could and executed really well. [00:23:00] Yeah, so you just need a, you need a race that's a little flatter and faster that kind of breaks the way Boston did, and then all of a sudden, now you're pushing down for some of those PR, maybe Canadian record type times.
Yeah. I know that I was fit enough that on the perfect day, I would have run faster in Chicago, like if everything went my way. No, it was a good day out there. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it wasn't a good day. I'm just saying the race wasn't. Catered to me in a couple of ways.
Like I had to fly a little closer to the sun than I wanted to, and had to make some tough decisions out there. But that's the whole name of the game. I think the best people in our sport know that there's days where things are gonna line up for you and they're gonna line up against you, and then you just gotta be good enough to overcome the bad ones and take advantage of the good ones.
Yeah, and it's just also just, I think, puts a spotlight on the refinement and the level you're at with the marathon where it's you have a, you have two really good races where physically from a [00:24:00] physiological standpoint, you're probably in a, in an amazing spot either way with like very little difference.
But then, yeah, we're talking about. Really small things adding up on, on that stage where one race is just gonna turn your way just a little bit better and then that ends up being a minute or two in the marathon. It's fun to think about that and hear you break it down that way.
'cause as we watch it from the outside and we're like, okay, you nailed both of them. I wonder how that actually played out in terms of favorability versus things happening that you had to adjust to and accept that weren't necessarily what you wanted it to go. Yeah. It's one of those things where Boston was like pure relation, just, it was like, holy smokes, this is the first time I've done something like this.
And I was so happy with how everything played out. I remember telling myself 20 miles into the race that I didn't even care what happened the next 10 k that I was already like, this has been the coolest thing I've ever done up to this point. Whereas Chicago was like. An attack on a record was the goal.
And I knew that there were gonna be these PACE groups that were [00:25:00] not gonna be exactly catered to my goal, but they're gonna be relatively good. And I'm gonna have to make tough decisions and go with groups that I don't know if I can run the whole time, but hopefully they can pull me in as long as possible.
And yeah, it's just the difference between those two races is a lot in our world, but can be perceived as very insignificant. Maybe from an outsider's perspective, but for me it was night and day. I'm stretching my memory a little bit here, but I think I remember when I was watching the live stream of Boston at one point you pulled up into the lead somewhere around Midway.
Yeah, right through. Right through Wellesley. Right through Wellesley, yeah. I remember seeing that and thinking okay. Rory must be having a good day. 'cause I didn't think like you were gonna do that just on a hope and a prayer. Yeah. So when I saw that, I was like, he must have a good day. But maybe that fed into some of what you were talking about where things just lined up for you, where you're in it, you're in the, you're in the thick of it.
You're, you've got that very [00:26:00] unique sensation of. Man I'm in the lead of the Boston Marathon and I can't imagine that doesn't just almost allow you to reset and maybe minimize what's left versus dwelling too much on Yeah. The grandness of the marathon. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I remember exactly why I ended up in the lead and it was that whole first 10, nine miles of the race.
It was like all gas up front, just absolutely just. Pedal to the metal running splits that I was like, I've never thought I'd be running these splits in a marathon and live to tell the tale. And I was in panic mode. I was like I've committed and this is gonna be a long day or it's gonna be a great day.
And if you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough. It was one of my mantras at that point. And, the race slammed on the brakes around maybe 10 or 11 miles, and I just drifted my way to the front because that, that, that settled down juice that the whole pack took and dropped 10 seconds per mile difference in pace.
I just all of a sudden was like, [00:27:00] oh, now I feel amazing. Like I was on the edge back here holding on, just trying to stay in this group. And then they let off the gas and I felt like I just floated to the front of the pack and then I was like, so Boston Marathon, we're about to go through the loudest part of the course.
I just floated my way up here. I'm gonna enjoy this. You know what I mean? Yeah, that was how that happened. Very cool. Did you do anything fueling wise? Oh, I'm sure you fueled, but what was the goal going into these marathons? Was there like a gram per hour target that you were looking for and types of fuel that you wanted to try to get to?
Yeah, I usually put 240 grams on course, whether it be through bottles or gels. And I like to do a mix. I don't like to be too reliant on one or the other. I actually think gels are more reliable just because you can put them on you and you can know exactly how much you're getting. Whereas with the drinks, sometimes they don't go down as easily.
They can slosh a little bit more and you're not always finishing your bottle. You're sometimes just nursing it for a little [00:28:00] bit and then tossing it. So I was in that two 20 to two 40 total intake. The first two marathons of the year at Boston and Ottawa, and I think I was a little lower in Chicago and I can explain why I almost planned on being lower.
And the reason was that in training, running the paces that I was gonna try to run like strategically I could tell that I was less efficient at taking in fuel. So I was like I am, this is more of like threading the needle between what I need and what I can get. Whereas if I am gonna have marathon wear.
I can imagine that I'll be able to relax at one point or another, then I'll be able to take in more. I have a pretty strong gut, but Chicago, with the fact that it was a time trial, I knew fueling at that pace was hard, so I was a little bit more cautious. I didn't want to throw up or have my body reject the fuel.
So I was a little bit lower. I was probably 80 to 90 grams [00:29:00] an hour there. Okay. Is the goal this next year to try to creep that total up a little bit at all, or are you pretty confident in what you got in at Boston if you can replicate that as being the ceiling of what you'll need? Yeah. I don't know entirely.
I try to test things in training and refine all the time. I'm always willing to do things differently. And, whether it be loading up more before on this, that, or the other, or if it's, front loading it or changing the way or the. The module I use to get it, whether it be drink or gel, right?
It's it's, there's always refinement of the craft and it is an art to me of listening to your body and taking in that information as you do it. 'cause I think if you're married to a game plan, you're setting yourself up for failure because you don't know what race day is gonna feel like, whether it be conditions on the course impacting.
Your ability to fuel or the pace you're running and impacting your ability to fuel or pre-race anxiety. [00:30:00] There's so many things that can go into the equation for fueling that. I'm always flying a little bit like by feel versus by plan, but I do like to be on the higher end.
Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting. It's gotten a lot more fun to follow the fueling stuff because a lot more of the pros are talking about what they're taking in, how much they're taking in, and what processes they're using to be able to do that. I remember after the New York City Marathon I actually didn't look back to see how accurate this was, but I think Joe Kleer said he was taking like 200 grams per hour.
Yeah. I keep hearing this number and it's talk, it's the most talked about thing amongst our community, I feel like, because I think. I think part of us is like, I think he's miscounting. That's our instinct, and he's doubled down on it multiple times. I'd love to talk to him about it personally and want him to go through everything that he did, because 200 grams an hour, that can't even be helpful at that point.
That has to be so high that you're actually [00:31:00] risking feeling bad. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I just, I, I. I don't think that's necessary, especially in the marathon where we know if you're starting to load up on your glycogen stores, you're probably sufficient around a hundred grams an hour. So 200 seems?
Really excessive. Yeah. It's certainly not necessary from an oxidation standpoint, like in terms of just what he's gonna need from that. I think if there's an argument to be made to try to get up that high, it's gonna be through some sort of central nervous system type. Like interaction with the intake of carbohydrates.
That's unique to your actual body processing and using it. But that's gonna be, that's all theory and the, at best at this point. And it's also like what you were talking about too, is like you're doing these training sessions and trying these feeling strategies out. And if it's if you're getting in.
Say a hundred grams per hour at the pace you're trying to target, and you're noticing, all right, this is about what my gut's gonna tolerate for you to try to go above that or [00:32:00] in Joe's case, potentially doubling it, it's just gonna probably lead to some sort of net negative where you have a digestive issue or you just feel miserable because you've got all this extra stuff in your gut.
Yeah. Yeah I'm a believer that pace dictates like a lot of this to an effort, right? If I'm more relaxed, I can take more. If I'm. Running. If I was running at a five minute pace, I think I could do 200 grams an hour and probably be fine. But when I'm trying to run four 40 mile pace there, my body is getting this outta me.
If I actually put that much in, it would immediately come out. Yeah, that's true. You're also at this point in time, almost four minutes faster than, or three, three, a little over three minutes faster than Joe, so maybe there's an intensity variance. Yeah, there could be. And we'll see. I don't know what his next marathon is, but I would be curious to see if his tune changes.
He's done one marathon. I've done 13 now, and I feel like every one I do, I learn something new and something has to be tweaked ever so slightly. Yeah, it'll be fun to follow all of you guys. I think we're in a great time for the Marathon [00:33:00] spectating. Yeah. What do you have coming up this year?
Yeah I can't officially announce my race schedule, but I will do a spring marathon, a big one. And I am in the current. The position where I feel like Houston was a huge validation that I'm ahead of schedule from last year and I'm gonna copy the schedule in a lot of ways. And, take that with what, however much grain of salt you want.
I'm gonna be on a very similar trajectory and schedule this spring and we'll probably just try to find ways to double down and. Get a little bit fitter so that I can take bigger risks in these races and hope that I get lucky and something breaks my way again. And that's the plan for the spring.
And then in the fall I'll do the World Road Running Championships in Copenhagen, and I'm excited about that after the half marathon I just ran. So I think it'll be fun to go to Europe and run a fast course against a [00:34:00] very deep, fast field and see if I can. Mix it up with those guys and then late in the year, I think I'll probably take a stab at another fast one.
Again the place it can probably be guessed when by saying late in the year, I'm gonna run a fast one. They're, but those things still need to be decided officially. But I have a tentative plan. Awesome. I'll be excited to follow that. I did wanna talk to you a bit about shoes because you've been with Puma now for how many years have you been with Puma?
It'll be four years this year. I signed with them in April of 2022. Okay, cool. Yeah, puma's been, I think one of the more innovative brands in the running market the last few years, and you've you've been with 'em long enough to probably be a part of that trajectory. Especially going into Boston with the fast R three, that shoe.
That shoe's just such a unique experience to me compared to almost anything else on the market. I'm curious how you're looking at that shoe line up and [00:35:00] thinking about both your training and your racing targets. 'cause the other thing is the deviate, I think the deviate Nitro Elite, that shoe.
It is also like just a top tier, super shoe almost. Yeah. And it's a, they're second technically on their lineup, so yeah. I'd be curious how you're engaging with their stuff. I am feeling really fortunate to be on the good end of this. 'cause I know that they're, I've been on the bad end of being, being with a brand that is not at the top of the line.
So it is fun to, to be on this side and just be like, I don't have to worry about the shoes. I know my shoes are gonna perform. I know they're gonna be awesome and. From a training perspective, it's been fun to use. I use the fast R three as a magic bullet that I only pull out when I wanna be special on a day.
And I use the deviate as my run of the mill shoe, which is like the best run of the mill shoe. You could say that's an insult to that shoe. 'cause it's, it is a great shoe and honestly like when I run in both the paces and the efforts aren't that far off. I [00:36:00] don't think it's like this huge difference.
For me, I think I test really well in the fast s because of my strike. I'm very. Heavy footed runner. Like me, I put a lot of power into the ground and I think that shoes favor people that are punching the earth a little bit. You know what I mean? That's how I view a lot of these shoe lineups from other brands is they're designed, and cater towards different types of foot strikes, and I think my foot strike matches up well with the FAST R three and it matched up well with the FAST R two and the three is just a souped up version of the two. It's been really fun to be a part of that.
And I remember when I signed with Puma, I was like, oh, the fast R one is a pretty solid shoe and I liked it. And that, I think at the time I signed, they were on the DVA elite. Two that we had just come out and now they're on the four and they've just been innovating so quickly they're not dragging their feet on this.
I already know that they're working on the next thing. They're gonna send me prototypes and I'm gonna be fortunate enough 'cause of my size of my [00:37:00] foot and my relationship with the brand that I'll be able to see what's coming. And they're not complacent. And I think you see a lot of these brands come out with a shoe and it's deemed the best on the market.
And they stop innovating. They're like, oh, we have an awesome shoe. Let's just keep churning it out. And I think there's a balance there. You don't wanna over, you don't wanna fix a problem that doesn't exist, but I do think you wanna constantly ask the question can we be doing this better?
And we're gonna get to the point of diminishing returns where super shoes are gonna plateau. But. We're not quite a hundred percent there. They've improved since the origin. It's marginal. It's just like itching away, but it's been fun to be a part of it. Yeah, and I think it's it'll be nice when it starts to plateau a little bit where, and I think we're starting to see a lot of this now where there's more players in the game where absolutely, a lot of the major brands have a serviceable shoe now where it isn't you can still probably get beat by a shoe to some degree, especially when you're running on margins that like you are in some of these races. But. [00:38:00] It's a lot less likely than it was, maybe it was in the early days where it's like, I could go from winning a race to sixth place 'cause of the shoes I'm wearing.
Yeah. Yeah. It was weird. For a while there, it was really weird and it was uncomfortable 'cause the conversation was being had internally at all these brands and externally by all the athletes and it was really weird. And I do feel like we don't talk about it as athletes. We like it.
We talk about shoes very infrequently now, just I'll get comments like, oh yeah, the fast R three, it's awesome. And it's yeah, it is. It is awesome. But like people aren't being like, Ugh, if I had those, I'm right. It's not met with the same thing. Like I think if you run for. One of the major brands, you probably feel very confident that you have a good shoe, and even some of these smaller brands are sneaking into the conversation with really good products.
I haven't tried them obviously, but I trust the people that I hear things from . Hey, there's some pretty special things coming from small players in the game. I think that's super [00:39:00] encouraging and I think we're really close to parody in the shoe game. There will be obviously slight edges and it's very individual, so that's the cool part about it.
Yeah. Yeah. And it is just like you said, it's like just because you get a certain percentage. In the lab testing doesn't mean that's gonna be everyone's experience. So someone may be faster in one of the other brands than they are in the fast R three and then someone might be faster in the faster three than some of the other brands too.
Yeah. So you can almost look at it through the lens of individualizing at that point towards your own preferences. But I'm gonna draw, I'm gonna draw a quick parallel 'cause I just thought of this. I'm not a big F1 guy, but I know that in F1 that's constantly the game is like these cars are constantly being tuned.
And who wins season to season is who made the greatest innovation the previous season? I don't think running's there. But I do think that it's fun, I don't think we need to resist the idea that we can be a part of it. And that can be a story and that can be fun. And that, that, I don't think that takes away from athletics.
I think it adds a different [00:40:00] component of intrigue and talking point. And athletics as a whole are running, if you want to call it that. Is always going to resist change because it's all about the purity of the sport. But I think there's some positives in having different discussions around technology in the sport.
Yeah, I think the resistance is probably good in the sense that it allows, it keeps us like, from getting too crazy. Yeah. It keeps us grounded. It keeps us grounded. Yeah. But then it's not strong enough to stop the innovation's coming, but it maybe just keeps it at a nice, comfortable pace.
But you actually preempted my next question very nicely there. When you talk about the F1, when I was at the running event earlier this year, I got a chance to check out some of Puma's, they call 'em concept car shoes, I'm sure you're familiar with all of 'em. And they had samples that you could try on.
And these are just shoes that they'll never come to market. They're not intended to come to market. They're just, they're making these shoes to be something that is like so above and beyond. What you would ever [00:41:00] see fit the regulations, but they're so good at informing. What the next innovation piece is gonna be.
'cause now that we're operating within this process of 40 millimeter stack, one plate, it's okay, who can do the best job of creating a shoe geometry or foam blends and things and plate structures that are gonna create the efficiency that's gonna get it up to the very top of what you can.
And I just love how Puma's looking at it through that lens and they're like let's just make something that takes all the rules off the table so we can see what's actually possible here. And then. Find what works within that, that we can fit into this that's actually gonna yield some value. And I think that's probably why they ended up with the Fast Star three sitting at the top of some of these efficiency scores now 'cause they were able to use that sort of really like forward thinking design process.
Yeah, for sure. I feel like Puma's done such a cool job with all this and. I remember when Fast R three was a concept that hadn't yet reached the prototype phase and hadn't been sent to me. [00:42:00] And like they're talking about it, like it's this lore, like they're so excited about what is about to come.
And then they were so excited about the launch into the world and. I love that they're excited to make waves and make big moments out of a shoe. And, Boston was special 'cause they released the shoe the week of, and then I was able to help validate the performance of the shoe in that, on that stage.
And Annie Frisbee did the same in the women's race placing seventh or eighth, I can't remember one of those, but. It was cool 'cause it was one of those real world applications where we see sports marketing and sport collide at a very real level. And you felt the gravity of that moment and that hadn't been done really since breaking too, right?
Like the original breaking too, where everybody's excitement and attention was on an event that also coincided with a drop of a really special shoe. Yeah, in terms of shoe launches, that wasn't like just a [00:43:00] unique experience that the brand completely controlled and built themselves, like breaking two, I can't think of a better done project than what did for Boston, especially with the project three that they did with all the amateurs that and they care I think they created like, it's so cool. If you look at it through like a. I was a political science major, so like community leaders or like opinion leaders in like their like little communities. You go to a run club and the fastest guy at every run club probably has a little bit of sway or the fastest girl at every run club.
Yeah. Probably has a little bit of sway. So this project has three things, to me, the genius in it is let's give pretty much everything. Run club cult leader or like a local legend, like a pair of these shoes and let's have them crush their goals at a race and then go home and report the good word, right? Yeah. Like it's such a good concept that worked so well because the product met the moment and yeah, I'm, I feel like they set like a crazy pre crazy [00:44:00] precedent and we saw other brands try similar things recently and it's hard to actually. Make, meet the moment. You have to have the product and the moment meet at the perfect time.
Yeah. Yeah. It's something where, when I think of that Boston Marathon, I think of that as part of it. So they clearly resonated with the viewer with the way they had that set up. It was exciting to see. I have a, maybe a little bit more of a kind of fun, lighthearted question for you.
Now that you. Connor Man and Clayton Young have all had what I would call kind of growth spurts within the marathon where yours and Connors maybe lined up a little bit more simultaneously. Clayton kind of seemed like he kinda had a pretty big jump up there, leaning into the Olympic trials.
And then you and Connor maybe a little bit of a jump up after that kind of going into last year with your races at Boston and Chicago. So all three of you, BYU alums, what are we gonna have to do to get like a BYU alumni meet where we get you [00:45:00] guys to go back to race? Like a cross country race as a team that maybe a couple other guys.
Oh, they, we, they, we could feel the full team. That's not just, it's not just us three. I don't know if you saw Casey Klinger's result. Yep. It's just it's, and it's gonna keep happening I think, just 'cause there's a lot of momentum in the program and Yeah it's cool. It's insane, but we should do some sort of something that would be really fun.
The cool thing is that it's happening organically at these races like Boston, where you have three or four BYU alumni in one field. And I think it's gonna continue to happen just because by nature of being in North America, there's only certain races that garner. Like the attention of North American talent.
And they get concentrated into the same stuff. Like I was unintentional, like following Connor Manz to every race he did for the last year, pretty much year and a half. And it appears that there's a good chance that trend continues, at least for a little bit. And I think that's good for the sport.
I think we need more. [00:46:00] Head-to-head and rivalries and consistency, like matching up of people that are important in the sport. And, Connor Mans might be one of the most important people in the sport right now, and in my mind he's in a league of his own still. But I am very motivated to close the gap and become somebody who can at least contend with him and catch him with a, with a.
A big right hook or something and be the kind of guy that can take down a David versus Goliath type battle and. That's exciting to me. And that's one of the things that motivates me to train really hard is, hey, I'm, I gotta close a gap on my generational talent right now.
'cause I'm a highly competitive person and I know Connor deeply well and personally and I care about trying to beat him. Yeah. Do you get down and train with those guys much at all before the Olympics? I went for two weeks and whenever we're at the same race, we generally see each other a good bit and, yeah it's like we're in our own worlds now. They obviously train together with Under Ed still. I've tried to make my own [00:47:00] area here in Flagstaff, my own community. And it's just a little different now. But I wouldn't be opposed to it, I would say during the Chicago build, I was.
Yearning for little Connor Manz training partner energy because I knew what it was gonna take to be ready for Chicago and I was like, man, it would be just so much easier if he was just here. 'Cause like I'm basically, my whole race plan is to try to chase this guy for as long as I can around the streets.
It would've been nice to have that guy to chase, but I think in some ways I've benefited from being a little bit of a lone wolf in training. I have training partners, don't get me wrong, but I do a lot of work alone and I think it's helped me learn a lot about myself and better my craft.
Yeah. I can't remember if I asked you this last time you were on, but wa was flag, was there a draw to Flagstaff that kind of stood out to you, that kind of keeps you there? At first the draw was my first team coming outta college, NAZ Elite. At this point, the draw is stability and roots that I have here.
I have friends, [00:48:00] I have a family, I have a house. I have a lot of things that have set pretty deep roots down here, and I really like my infrastructure in my community here. I think it's a special place to train for a number of reasons. The. Just the sheer spots to run. And the weather we get here is in a class of its own for an altitude location.
And then on top of that, like it's a really good community of people that really lift each other up. There's not really very many bad eggs out here and it's pretty cool. I think we all pull for each other and push each other in really cool ways. Yeah. Yeah there's also the aspect of it just being a premier spot to train, you can get down to sea level pretty easily if you need to in the winter or if you just wanna try to do something a little bit more flatten and higher oxygen content.
But, you're up at just under 7,000 feet in Flagstaff. Flagstaff will always, I think, be a spot where people wanna be for training anyway. So if you've already got yourself settled there, then it's, just. A lot of reasons [00:49:00] to leave other than maybe find some training partners here and there to mix up some training blocks with.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think at some point that might be in the cards. I've been trying to get those guys to come to Flagstaff 'cause I just want, I want them to see, I want them to see what it's all about and experience that. So I've tried to convince Connor Mans specifically multiple times and this past weekend I hung out with Casey Klinger quite a bit 'cause he was teammates with me at BYU for a semester even.
And I've been following his career and I was like, come to flag dude. Just give it a try. I promise you'll like it. And it's hard 'cause a lot of these guys have families and they have their own things that are obligations. So it's not as easy as just picking up and going. But I think making it work would be really cool.
Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Either way we will, we'll be following you up there training and getting in any of the other content that you're putting out there for us to consume about your next buildup and things like that. But anything else exciting you wanted to share or talk about before I let you go?
And probably put in [00:50:00] another training session before the end of the day. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing new. I think last time I was on this pod I was promoting my, at that point. At that point, it was a brand new YouTube channel. And it's still something I'm doing regularly and as I get into a marathon block, I like to crank up the frequency and be on that.
And that's probably the best place. Like any of your listeners could support me just by being on there subscribing, liking, commenting, and interacting with that content. I think it tells a little bit more of a story than what you can see. It's kinda like podcasting. It's long form content and gets a better glimpse at who people are and how they operate.
I'm really excited about the time and energy I put into that product and I wanna continue to try to get better and better as time goes on. And I, we're gonna have a Houston video coming out later and it's gonna be. What we talked about on this podcast. Like it's gonna show how I realized I was in Sub 60 Shape and then the race happened and I brought my guy out there for [00:51:00] that.
And it's cool 'cause you get to see both sides, the pre-race and the post-race of something like that coming together. And I think that's really rare in this space at this point. Yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah, I love it. I love all the YouTube stuff with you guys. Just giving us an insight of just what a day looks like, what some training sessions look like.
And yeah, kinda gives us a little bit of an idea of what goes into the headspace and the actual physical process of preparing for some of these races. So I'll definitely link that into the show notes for listeners who wanna go check out what yeah, what Rory's up to on YouTube. And definitely check out Houston, I think.
What was the last video you released? I think it was. Was it just a reflection on the 20, 25 season? Yeah, it was a reflection and it also had some one of those workouts. We referenced the mile repeats with bsa, who's become one of my. He's always been one of my best training partners here in Flagstaff.
We have different coaches and we link up a lot just because it's a good match. Yeah, there's a lot of that kind of stuff in there. And I did another workout with BIA in that three [00:52:00] by three miles in Camp Verde, so lower altitude leading into Houston. Yeah it's fun. And, that's, I think that's been a fun project that I am continuing to try to grow so that it is worth the time and energy we put into it.
Cool. Awesome, Roy. Thanks a bunch for giving me some time to chat about everything. It was fun to hear about what went into last year in Houston and I'm excited to see what you do this year. It's gonna be a big one, I think. Yep, that's the plan. The goal is to make 2025, not a fluke, and build into it, and 2026 and so constantly running away from my own shadow.
Perfect. Awesome, Roy. Take care. Thank you. Take care.