Episode 464: 100 Mile World Record | Caitriona Jennings

Caitriona Jennings, an Irish long-distance and ultra-distance runner has had a distinguished career spanning marathons, ultras, and international competition. She represented Ireland at the 2012 London Olympics and has set multiple national and world records, particularly in ultra distances. She recently broke the Women’s 100 Mile World Record at Tunnel Hill 100 Mile, where she finished in a time of 12:37:04 in her debut at the distance.

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Timestamps/Topics: :

0:00:00 Welcome and Introduction

0:01:04 Podcast Support and Sponsors

0:01:57 Interview with Caitriona: Breaking the 100 Mile World Record

0:03:13 Race Strategy and Mental Challenges

0:09:27 Pacing and Data Analysis

0:20:15 Fueling and Nutrition

0:23:41 Caffeine Strategy

0:30:42 Reflections on Endurance Racing

0:33:18 Discussing Poly Shorts and Running Challenges

0:33:48 Future Running Goals and Comrades Marathon

0:36:53 Training for Tunnel Hill

0:45:40 Recovery and Post-Race Reflections

0:48:42 Balancing Life and Ultra Running

0:55:32 Longevity in Ultra Running

01:00:07 Future Plans and Course Preferences

01:03:53 Closing Remarks and Social Media

Episode Transcript:

Caitriona. Welcome to the show. Thanks, Zach. Pleasure to be here. Yeah, I'm really excited to chat with you, especially after this last weekend where you became the new women's 100 mile world record holder. Yeah, I know it still sounds strange when I hear it, but, um. Yeah, it's absolutely brilliant. I'm really pleased that everything paid off and that I can, uh, that I crossed the line under the previous record. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that must have been exciting. And I know another layer of uniqueness with that particular performance for you is that was your first 100 miler as well. So there had to be a little bit of a speculation going into that as to what the goal time was going to be when you started the race. Absolutely, yeah. It was a bit of an unknown to me. So I um, I did try and do a lot of research and thanks to your podcast, it, uh, informed quite a bit of that research, to be honest. Um, where I tried to, you know, figure out what, um, what pace I should be running at or, you know, how training would, would kind of show, or at least give me an indication of what pace I could maintain for the 100 miles. But yeah, 60 miles had been the longest I'd ever run prior to the race. So the last 40, which is a pretty big chunk, was just all and unknown. So I really had no idea what to expect for that part. Yeah, yeah it is. It gets interesting in that last 40 miles, that's for sure. And I know I've been giving this some thought because I'd recently run a hundred miler. And it's just like this kind of interesting spot in there somewhere after 100 K, I think, where you sort of have to make a decision as to what you're going to do or how aggressive you're maybe going to be, or how aggressive you're willing to tolerate things when you still have a big chunk of mileage left on there. And sometimes I know from my experience, it's like it can go 1 or 2, it can go, it can go a couple different ways. Sometimes it goes really well and you end up thinking, man, I'm glad I pushed through there. And other times the wheels maybe come off a little bit and you struggle at the end. It seemed like you didn't have too many struggles near the end given your finishing time. Yeah, um, I didn't. I think it went well for me and that I don't. I never got to a point where I thought I wasn't going to finish or that I would have, um, you know, difficulty finishing. I don't believe I had to dig incredibly deep to get there. Um, but I was very conservative at the start, and I think that probably is what helped them towards the latter part of the run. Um, and I would say I was very, very happy to see the finish line. I'm not sure I could have gone much farther. Actually, I listened to one of your podcasts where you were told that once you finished The Hundred Miles to keep going because you were on for a 12 hour record, and I thought, oh my goodness, I have so much respect for that now. Now knowing what it's actually like to run 100. So yeah. Yeah. No, it's one of those weird things with the 12 hour stuff. I, I've had some, I had one where I stopped where I think I ran 1140 55 and there just wasn't another meter in the legs that day. So I left some time on the clock and no. 12, no full 12 hours, I guess, for that one. But I've, I've shuffled my way to the 12 hour mark a couple of times as well. So. Yeah, it's definitely I think at that stage it's more just trying to get the feet moving than anything, right? Yeah. No kidding. And you know, the other interesting thing too is you chose to do Tunnel Hill 100 mile, which I think is such an interesting course because you kind of get this dynamic on that course where the time of year is almost always really good weather. I know they've had some years where it's gotten a little goofy on the cold side of things, but usually it's pretty good. Even if there's wind, you're kind of have this like canopy of trees that keep it relatively still inside the actual track, and then it's basically just straight line running because you just have that first out and back where you turn around at the end, obviously, and then you go to the next out and back, turn around, and then you just do that all again. But really you're just running straight lines all day long and. Yeah, yeah. How did you feel about that? I mean, you know, if you think about it very logically from a running perspective, it's going to be fast because you don't have to, you don't have to have only three U-turns. Other than that, it's like nothing's going to slow you down as such. So it's just about having a rhythm and holding it. But then practically, from a mental perspective, it's um, it's quite I wouldn't say boring because it's not boring, but it's it's all looks the same. So it's just very much the same, same, same. And particularly I felt, um, there was a section in just, I guess, between 50 miles and 70, 76 miles, like the for like the first item back of the second loop. You know, I found that particularly difficult because I was running on my own and there weren't any slow runners coming back or I wasn't looking at anyone in the distance. So I was literally on my own for, um, I guess like an hour or three hours and 20 minutes or however long it took me to do that section. And, um, you know, that's where. And it was hot at that part of the day as well. So I think that's where I find it the hardest, just mentally, um, looking ahead and not really necessarily seeing your progress because you're just getting to somewhere that it actually looks the same as where you'd been five miles ago. But in saying that, I think, um, I was probably prepared for it mentally before I went in and I knew I was going to be running for large sections of it on my own. So I was kind of prepared to, you know, deal with that. And I do think that a lot of that race came down to kind of the mental side of it, as well as the actual physical side and the ability to run. Um, yeah. It becomes an interesting back and forth mentally when you get to a certain point where you've got plenty of miles on your legs, but there's still quite a bit of running left to do, and the mind seems to always want to gravitate towards just how big those final miles are. So I'd be curious, did you do any kind of mental tricks that helped you sort of minimize that part of the race where you had, say, maybe 100 K plus and the legs already, but had to kind of pull back and not overly think about the rest of the race. Um, I think because I was, I was really when I hit the 100 K mark, that was just around the turnaround at the I think it's the south end. Is it? And then um, so then it's another, it's like 13 miles back to the start finish line. So I was just purely focused on getting back that. I was focused purely on the 13 mile section to get back to the start finish line. And I had a goal in mind for the time that I wanted to come back to that point at, and where I felt I would still be on track. So, um, I really very much stayed in the moment, I guess, in that section of the course. Now when I pass the start finish line for the last time, I have 14 miles to go. Oh, no, sorry, 26 miles to go. No. Excuse me. 20, 24 miles to go at that stage because there's 12 miles and 12 miles. So I thought, okay, I, um, because that's where you hit the like we call it a hill, even though it's not really a hill, but the drag. I knew that if I could get to the turnaround at the top of the drag within goal pace, that I would do it because I, you know, then you just have to run down the hill. And I knew my legs were strong enough. It wasn't my like, it wasn't my legs that were having trouble. It was more of my head passing through the, um, you know, the Vienna, the start finish area at that point. A lot of the 50 mile runners that finished, and it really felt like there was a little party happening and I felt, oh, wow, I'd love to just like, stop running and join this party. But, um, yeah, I thought, I thought, well, I'll be back in three hours and I'll do it then, but, um, yeah, I so I think I, I dealt with it by just breaking it down into distances kind of and just staying in the section that I was in mentally rather than looking too far ahead, because I knew that if I did look too far ahead, I'd find it too daunting. Mhm. Yeah, yeah. The other interesting I always find with these kind of flat, more controlled ultras is you can pay very close attention to pace and splits and get really reliable feedback as to where you are versus where you've been and where you want to be. But I also know, like, especially as you get into kind of the more of the short loop type stuff, it can be almost data overload at times. So were you paying attention to your splits very frequently or your watch splits or anything like that? I relied on it a lot at the start because I needed to hit the pace, and what I found at the start was I just kept running too fast and I'd have to slow myself down, and then I'd just naturally start running faster and I'd have to be like, oh, I've just slowed myself down again. So I needed it to get to hit the pace. Eventually I was kind of like speeding up and slowing down. I was too young a little bit. Like, I guess for the first five miles, I would say, and I thought, I'm just gonna like, I hit a pace. I think it was around maybe 720 between 720 and 725 ish. And I thought, this is a really comfortable pace. I'm enjoying running at this. I looked at my heart rate. It was totally fine. I thought, I'm just I can't slow myself down further. I'm going to go with it. And, um, you know, I'm not producing lactate. I'm not going into any reserves. I'm like, I'm not burning anything at this stage. So rather than killing myself trying to run too slow, I wanted to just run, um, comfortably. And I also thought, you know, I want to enjoy the day, so I'm going to have to run at this pace because this is what I'm enjoying. And if I pay for it later, well, so be it. But I'm going to, you know, enjoy it now. And once I made that decision I It took a lot of pressure off me because I did stop looking at the watch and I tried to, you know, avoid that data overload or that pressure of just the constant, um, watching the watch rather than actually enjoying the race and being out in nature and actually, you know, enjoying the whole, the whole process. Mhm. Yeah. It is interesting, I find that if you're looking at the watch too frequently versus going on intuition and perceived effort, it almost creates like these timestamps that ultimately when you're thinking back on it makes you maybe feel like you've been out there for longer than you actually have versus sort of leaning into the flow that you can get into by running what feels comfortable. So I've gone back and forth on things like where the balance is, because maybe you'll experience this now that you've got 100 miler under your belt. And if you do another one, I'm assuming you'll probably want to try to improve. And then maybe it's like, okay, well, now I have a much more accurate data point on the scoreboard, so to speak, to, to lean off of from a pacing standpoint. But it is one of those where I think there's a balance between the cognitive loading and the accuracy of just trying to hit a specific split. Yeah for sure. And I mean, I'm a big fan of rolling Buffy because, you know, the watch is helpful, but at the same, at the same time. I can't tell you how you're feeling. Um, and, you know, there are times and races as well. Well, in my experience anyway, and probably in the shorter races where I have more experience. But in time, there are times when you know you're running at a, at a when you're running a perceived effort. I feel like it's more accurate because you could be running at a pace which feels really easy. And you look at your watch and it's very fast and you're like, oh shit, and you slow down. And um, then the opposite can also happen where you feel like you're putting in so much effort, and then you look at your watch and you're running slow, and that really puts you off. So you start adjusting how you're running just because the watch is telling you something. But if you actually run by, you know your own perception of how you're feeling and how your body is coping with it, well, it's much better. Um, and that's generally my approach to racing. But with this one, I had to make an exception to that, because I knew that I needed to be a bit more disciplined about, you know, holding back. And I didn't have I wasn't as in tune with the distance. So I didn't know, you know, how to split my energy over like a 13 hour period. So I kind of, um, I did as I said, I was reliant on the watch much more, particularly at the start of this race and even during. And I was checking in every so often, of course, to make sure that I was still on track. But I do really like that sense of running by feel. And, um, you know, your body knows more than your brain in a way. Mhm. Yeah. Did you, did you hit a point where the, the pace on the watch started to reflect your perceived effort a little bit more accurately and then maybe even got to a point where now all of a sudden you're like okay, now I'm working a little harder than I normally would for the pace that I'm producing. Absolutely. Yeah. For sure. Now, I don't recall exactly what point that came at, but I like for sure going up the hill like so from 74, from 76 miles to 84 miles. I liked it even though I thought I was running fairly steady, like my pace really. Like it had slowed down quite a bit, I'd say by maybe like, I don't know, 20s per mile or something. And I am now maybe not actually for maybe one mile it went down to 20s for a mile, but then I actually kind of seemed to creep it back. I think there was. I think there are actually variations in that drag section where some of the, the, the, um, the percentage incline probably is a little bit steeper at times than other times. So there were 1 or 2 miles on that, um, section where I thought, oh, that was a bit slow, considering, you know, where I felt I was. But of course, you have so many miles in your legs at that stage. Um, you're going to naturally just slow down. Um, but I think what I started doing then was just like maths. I was doing maths for probably the last three hours, where I kept figuring out what pace I could run at, um, and still come in under the record. And, um, yeah, I think that was, uh, that's probably what can't be entertained. Actually, for all of the last three hours, I was just doing maths. Yeah, yeah. At a certain point, you kind of need a distraction from thinking. Thinking too far ahead. And math can do that for you. Yeah. So your final time was, I believe, 12 hours, 37 minutes and four seconds. Correct? Yeah. So that comes out for the listeners who are curious. A 734 mile pace for 100 miles. Did you. Or have you had a chance to go through some of the data just from your watch and look at just kind of how the flow of the race went from a pace standpoint? Like any specific mile markers or kilometer marker splits that stand out as to kind of where you were at at a certain point on the day. I had a very quick flick through it, but I didn't really have a chance to go through it in detail yet. Um, like, weirdly, it's been like a bit of a whirlwind since I got back to Ireland because the media here has just really been absorbed by this, which was a huge shock to me. But, um, I've been, uh, yeah, I've been catching up with, uh, quite a few just doing interviews and things like that. And I'm back at my day job as well, so I'm like, I'm just juggling. So I haven't actually had time to sit down and look at my own data, which is frustrating because as well as looking at that, I also kind of want to sit down and think about maybe races or whatever that I might do in future. But, um, for now, I'm just like, yeah, um, I haven't, I haven't done it yet properly. I think I have a very, fairly good sense of it though, because, um, like, I was checking in, like, and so my big markers that I had in my head where the turnaround points in either end and then the middle section and I know, like I was. So when I went through halfway, I was eight minutes ahead of where I wanted to be when I went through, um, the 76 mile mark, I was. I think I was like, uh, I think I was still about maybe ten minutes ahead of it there, but I like massively getting into that. Um, that buffer we call it in the last 14 miles. So I know that I did slow down in that last 14 miles where I actually, in hindsight, needed the little buffer that I didn't think I did when I was starting the race. In my mind, when I started, even splits were the way to go. And if I could just maintain that even split throughout the day, I would do it. Looking back at it now, I'm not sure if I had a startup a bit slower, would I have maintained it or would I still have slowed that? That was kind of. That's what I'm just not sure I would have been able to maintain. So, um, I do kind of think that it was nice to have the buffer and not to have to really, you know, dig incredibly deep at the end when maybe the reserves just wouldn't have been there and that could have led to cramping or, um, you know, just completely blowing up altogether. So, um, it's an interesting one, actually. Yeah. Yeah, it is a really fun topic. I know I've gone back and forth in terms of kind of how I think the optimal loading zone for pacing goes. And I, you know, you know, the other thing that I hadn't really given a ton of thought to until recently was Also like there may be a difference when you're you're. I mean, you're essentially time trialing what you're doing, what you were doing, like you were saying before, you're kind of in no man's land or no woman's land, um, for, for good chunks of that race. So you don't have that same pressure from someone pulling you along or pushing you along the way. You would if it were, you know, a race that was shorter distance or with just a deeper field. So I do think in those scenarios you have to be mindful of that, because who knows? It's like your splits might have been spot on for an even split. If there would have been someone a minute behind you in a minute ahead of you, and then maybe you do not dig into that buffer and that last stretch, just as you have that incentive of more people there. Uh, but yeah, it's hard to go back and do it again and see. Yeah. Of course. And it's very true because, you know, if you're racing someone, you're, you're in a race, you're going to, you know, you can't stick. Or if you're not like the plan that you're trying to stick to, but like I've gone into races with the plan and then I, I'm, you know, up against tough competition or, you know, competition. And I just like, throw my own plan out the window and I just race the race. And I think you need to do that sometimes. But, like, you know, the good thing about, um, Tunnel Hill was I did have the luxury of literally just no distractions other than my race. And, um, like, there were girls around me early on, and I just was actively telling myself to ignore it. It's harder, you know, to do than you might think. But I'm glad I did because you just had to race a hundred mile race. You really do stick to your plan on that one. Yeah, absolutely. How did, uh, fueling and nutrition go for the day? Did you have a plan going in terms of what you wanted to try to hit? And then how did that all play out? Yeah. So I, um, sat down and made a pretty detailed plan because, you know, I knew the importance of it. And I realized that if you're if I wasn't getting what I needed in fueling, then everything was just going for the rails. The wheels were going to come off the rails very quickly. Um, so I had, uh, I had a list of everything that I was going to do, and I and my, my husband and myself worked through that. And then, um, he crewed me throughout the day. So he was able to get to actually, I think pretty much all of the aid stations on the course. Um, he just was able to drive in and out and, uh, you know, take what I had decided that I wanted at each one. And so my plan was to rely fully on gels. So I was taking, um, the cis beta 40g. Um, I was planning to take two an hour or so. I was planning to take 80g of carbs an hour. At the start. My stomach wasn't feeling great. Like I just wasn't having a good morning. And I thought, um, I don't think like the most I've taken and before that per hour is 60g. So I decided to back off. I hadn't even taken it. I hadn't taken like one hour of it yet. So I said, right, I don't feel great. So I think I'll just go back and have 60g an hour. But then everything kind of resolved itself, and I decided I'd go back up to the 80 as planned. And that was working really well. When I got half during the day, I thought I was lacking. I started feeling a little bit dizzy around like the 50 mile mark and I did it. I opened up one of the eight stops and um, then at the next one he gave me, he handed me the dough or a light into the water because I was taking water and gels every time. So rather than taking the water, I took the light in that one, and that really helped. And then they were also giving a tailwind on the course. So I started drinking a bit more tailwind and taking less gels because, um, I'm also used to taking tailwind when I'm training, and I think it probably just had a better balance of what I needed when it was that hot in the day, and I was probably sweating more than I realized. Um, and then towards the back end of the race again, then I just went back to just plain water and the gels. So I did switch off my plan a small bit, but I stayed pretty, pretty close to it. Um, and then just like more tailwind and electrolytes during the day to, um, accommodate the heat. Yeah, yeah, it gets interesting. I think when you start adding in the fluid, the electrolytes and the nutrition altogether, and to some degree they engage with one another. So it's like if one is off, then sometimes what was working with the other starts to unravel a little bit. And yeah, electrolytes are a fun one to play around with, I know. The nice thing about having tailwind on the course is I believe tailwind is like something like, uh, I think it's like maybe 500mg for a serving or a scoop of their stuff, too. So if you do find yourself in a scenario like you are where you're maybe needing a little bit of extra salt, then that's a pretty good option to be able to pull off of the course on a kind of impromptu move. Yeah, it was brilliant, actually. I was delighted because, as I said, it wasn't even a risk. Like at one point my husband was trying to hand me coke and I've, I've never had I don't I don't like coke and I've never had it in a race. I know it's very popular and some ultra runners love it. But I was like, oh, I don't think I want to start drinking Coke. But I knew I could 100% rely on the tailwind. So, um, yeah, I think it was just really fortunate, um, that that was what was being offered at the aid stations. Yeah, yeah. Did you do any caffeine? I did about four 450mg of caffeine in total. But again, I and I had planned to take more at the start, which I then decided I wasn't taking anyone. When my stomach was just a little bit unsettled, I thought, I'm not putting caffeine into it and I don't. It didn't feel like I needed it. Now I started taking it at six hours. I took my first, um, I took 150mg I and then I took another one at 8.5 hours in. And then I just decided to take one about 90 minutes before the end because I just was like, I might need it, I might not, I don't know, but I'll just take it because it's gonna maybe it'll just give me that last little boost that I need to get back home. I took it at the turnaround. The last turnaround. Mhm. Did you, did you focus on 150mg at a dose? Because that's just what's worked well for you in the past. Or was there a reason for that? Too. To be perfectly honest just because the deserving was in the bottle. Nice. I just said, well, I mean, yeah, I, um I actually was experimenting a bit with the caffeine, to be honest, because I don't usually take caffeine, I would sometimes take gels with caffeine, but they would have obviously much lower doses. So this was a new experiment for me on the caffeine side. Um, there was no caffeine in the gel, so I decided I wanted to add it separately and, um. Yeah. Uh, well, it seems to have paid off. It worked. Yeah. It wasn't quite a thing to do. Hard to argue with the approach now, I suppose so, yeah, I, I find caffeine a real interesting one for a few of the things that you've said. One is like, you probably don't want caffeine in the early stages. When you're in that situation where you're looking at the watch, you're like, hey, I'm a little faster than I'd like to be. I think that if anything, that's just going to incentivize the thing you're trying to avoid, which is speeding up. But then you eventually hit that point where now all of a sudden perceived effort is feeling like it's a little higher at that same pace, or your pace is a little slower at that same effort, and then that caffeine can kind of normalize that. So then to me it's always like, well, what's the next step there? Is it like, do we follow the literature and go with like a performance dose of caffeine that you're going to see in more Olympic distance type events, which would probably be pretty close to the 150mg that you took in. So I think that's one path forward. The other one I always play around with sometimes too, is doing more micro doses of caffeine. And I find the differences if I take a smaller amount like closer to 50mg, it kind of helps narrow in that focus. So if I'm in a situation where my legs feel good, the pace is fine, and I'm just struggling, like cognitively, those smaller doses can sometimes help me just kind of clear the background noise and focus on what I'm trying to say. But sometimes the legs are feeling a little sluggish and, you know, things feel like you really need a big boost or a little bit more of a boost to get back to equilibrium. And then I think those performance doses can be nice and nice and handy and get up close to that 150mg mark like you did. And then, you know, sometimes it's timing, too. It's like you didn't take any caffeine in the first six hours. So you probably had a pretty good ability to tolerate a decent amount of it. And then, you know, spacing out the way you did, you probably were just hitting that, hitting that just at the right time to keep you smooth through the finish. Yeah, and to be perfectly honest, I don't even know that I didn't feel like I really needed the last one. I decided I would take it because, um, I guess, again, if it was an unknown, um, you know, I was definitely starting to feel tired. I still felt fine, but I didn't want to be in a situation where I got to the point where I needed it. So I thought, I'm just going to preempt this and take it early. Um, now, maybe if I hadn't taken it, it wouldn't have. I wouldn't have felt the need to have taken it. But at the same time, yeah, I just felt it had been long enough since my previous one. And I thought, you know what? There's no harm. Um, the other two have had, like, I haven't had any negative impacts or hadn't they had no negative consequences to my running. So I thought, why not? I'll take it. Yeah, I like that. I mean, when you look at the way the caffeine sort of kicks in, it is about 15, maybe 20 minutes before it really starts to hit your system. And, and then with that sort of dosing, it's gonna take about an hour before it peaks too. So when you have 90 minutes left, you're taking it. Then it's like you're hedging for that last 30 minutes to some degree, where if you got to that part and you're like, oh, shoot, I should have taken the caffeine, you know, it's almost too late at that point. The wheels are coming off and then and we're talking I mean, you had a super strong race and I think took about five minutes off the world record. But really, you know, that's just one bad mile where you start walking and all of a sudden, you know, you could slip away from that. So there's not a lot of margin for error. For sure, and I was so aware of that as well. I knew five minutes was actually nothing. Over a hundred mile race. And even when I got to the last, the very last, um, aid station I thought was 3.1 miles from the end, I and I saw my husband there and I said, ah, my 3.1 miles to go. He said, you know, you have 2.8. Just keep going. And, you know, I'm so happy to hear it is 2.8 versus 3.1, which actually seems bizarre because I was so happy to know about a 0.3 of a difference in a mile running a hundred mile race. But I was because, as I said, I was doing the math so often, I just knew that that gave me an additional probably three minutes or more maybe. Um, so again, that was an additional buffer because it had had something happen or, you know, like those five minutes can go in like a flash if something starts bothering you. Um, yeah. Yeah. You almost have to cross that finish line to know for sure. Yeah. Exactly. Oh, 100%. Yeah, yeah. You can't. I've been asked a few times, when did you know, uh, you were I was going to do it. And I said, well, I was feeling great and I never felt that I wasn't going to do it. But in saying that, I didn't know until I was actually over the finish line, or maybe like four meters before it, when I could literally see it and I knew I could make it over it. Um, that's really the only time I actually knew. And I don't think, well, I mean, maybe when for more experienced runners, they might have a better sense, but I think, you know, you just can't take anything for granted. Over a hundred mile race. Um, yeah. And that kind of brings up another point to where you're new to the 100 mile distance, but you certainly aren't new to endurance racing. In fact, you've been an Olympian, uh, for Ireland in the 2012 games, I believe. So you've been a very competitive marathon runner. You've run 50 KS, it's been third at world, 100 K's, third at comrades, I believe. So as far as the marathon and some of the shorter ultra distances go, you've had those experiences and you've probably had some experiences where things felt good and then turned around really quickly to bad. And then, you know, some in the back of your mind that that could just be like, you know, feeling great one minute and then a couple of minutes later feeling terrible. So that's always kind of lingering in the back of your head for an experienced runner. Yeah, that's exactly what happened to me in my first comrades. My first class was in 2019, and it was the first time I ran anything over a marathon. And, um, so comrades is 90km versus my previous experience of having run 42 and I was I again, I went into that race with the plan that I would run conservatively and I would run by heart rate because I didn't want to, you know, overextend myself. And I ran my heart rate for the first time. I think it was until the first. Around the marathon, marks were around roughly halfway. I was feeling amazing and I thought, this is how I feel amazing. I'm holding back way too much. I'm going to go for it. And I started, or I thought I would just increase the pace a little bit, but because I decided to increase the pace, I started motoring through the course and I was working my way up through the field. I was in second at one point, and all of a sudden out of absolutely nowhere, my legs just felt like two lumps of wood that I cramped so badly I could barely get one foot in front of the other. Um, I had to. I literally had to run with straight legs to get myself going again. And I lost a spot, and I was just terrified that I was going to lose the third place position. So I, I have experience of, you know, that like false sense of security in the middle of a long race where you think everything feels amazing and that, you know, nothing could go wrong and it absolutely can, Which was which was probably a great experience in a way, when I think about it, when I was going into the 100 mile from for the first time because because I'd had that experience, the first time I stepped up to 90 K, I knew that I couldn't at any point take anything for granted, and that I had to just keep minding myself, minding the pace, minding my legs and making sure that I wasn't in any way overextending anything until, um, you know, until I actually got to the finish line. Yeah, yeah. And comrades, that course can, uh, chew you up and spit you out really quickly with all those punchy hills they have on it. So it's not one you don't want them to come? Yeah. Were you on? Did you do it? Was that an up year or a down year that you did it? That was a year. Yeah. So you can really pay. I really paid. Um, yeah. I think I walked a fair bit of poorly that year, and, um, I got to the top and it's downhill from there. So you think, oh, yeah, no problems, start running again. But yeah, it's a problem. Yeah. Getting running again after walking and then downhill is not always better. If your quads are what are kind of shot because you still need those stabilised. Yeah yeah yeah. So are you thinking now that you've done the 100 mile distance that you'd like to go back and explore 50 K, 100 K or comrades or something like that in the future and see what it's like to attack a, you know, something between the marathon and 100 miles. Now that you've got that real long duration experience under your belt. Yeah, I'm really fascinated to see how it's going to impact my comrades next year. I will definitely run with my comrades again next year. I've run it four times now. So, um, and I have four gold medals, so this would be my fifth. And I'm really hopeful, keeping everything crossed, that I can snatch that fifth gold medal, which would be very sweet. But, um, I'm fascinated to see how, um, how the training block from the 100 mile will translate into the comrades, even though. So, you know, comrades is obviously an ultra race in itself. And it's a 90 day race, so it's a very long run. But, you know, it's still somewhat shorter than the 100 miles. So I'm wondering, you know, how it will impact it if it'll be beneficial or not. And um, maybe if some of the training that I did for the 100 mile would be more beneficial to comrades as well. And because it was quite different actually. But I felt that the double long run at the weekend really did benefit me. And I do think it would probably benefit the comrades training as well. So I might try and experiment a little bit with that and bring some of the learnings from the 100 mile into the, into the 90 K. Mhm. Yeah. I mean I think that makes sense. I also think it'll be something where just your, the way you approach it mentally is not necessarily going in, although that could also be something that's beneficial. But as you're kind of moving through the race to these distances and time frames, that in the past would have felt like a certain amount of effort starting to tighten a little bit now, because you just know what you're able to do from a longer term standpoint. I remember kind of going back to like some Aidc stuff after doing my first 100 mile run. I remember thinking, wow, that went by so fast. But prior to that, they felt incredibly long. So yeah. Yeah, true. That's um, similar to that after when I started running comrades and I went back to running marathons, I had a completely different, um, approach to marathon running. I thought I actually probably was a bit more aggressive, in fact, because I was like, well, you know, it's not that long. And, you know, you can probably suffer for at least part of it. So you can be a bit more aggressive at the start and see how that happened or see how that pans out. Um, so yeah, maybe although it is an up running comrades in 2026, so I don't think it ever pays off to be too aggressive at the start of the run. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. You know the other thing too I think like you sort of alluded to with the back to back long runs and then this race itself that feeds into a race like comrades, it could also be something where your, your relative speed is similar to what you would have been able to do in the past. But now your ability to sustain it for longer periods of time will improve. So maybe a little less fade at the end, which, you know, that can make a big difference on a course like that. Yeah, I think so. Um, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's all just about getting the legs ready for the effort on the day. So, um. Yeah, I think if you're like, if they're over prepared, that's all. Even better. Really. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah I did want to dive in a little bit into the training that you did leading into Tunnel Hill. I know we were able to chat a little bit as you were kind of getting into the thick of that training and just talk about what you were doing and what would maybe be the best way to speak. I'd be curious kind of how you ended up structuring those, those final months. Yeah. So I, um, I pretty much continued the double long run. I probably increased it, um, uh, kind of gradually each weekend to a point where I never ran more than, um, I think my peak weekend of running was 32 miles on a Saturday and 32 miles on a Sunday. I did that once, so I was also like, I have a really bad history of injury. So I was also very cautious of, um, injury throughout this training block. I knew I needed to increase my mileage. I probably wanted to be targeting somewhere around like 100, 100 to 110 miles a week. But, um, what I ended up doing was I would run two weeks at that high mileage. They were generally around 105 miles a week, and then one week I would back off and let my body kind of recover, um, and then back up to two weeks at the higher mileage, one week backing off. And that seemed to work out well for me. And I didn't, you know, I didn't pick up any injuries throughout the training program. Um, and then six weeks away from the race itself, I did 160 mile race or 160 mile run, um, which was like, to be honest, I really felt that was more difficult than the race itself because, again, you're just going out on your own. You're running for like, whatever, seven hours for nothing. Yeah. So it was tough, but it was good . It was definitely good preparation. And I'm glad I did it because I was actually able to draw from that day and how I was feeling that day when I was racing, and particularly when it was getting hard at the end. So, um, you know, I think that was a good, uh, that was that set me up well, for the race itself. Yeah, yeah. I have always found that having something a little bit longer solo, similar to like what you did for 60 miles is a nice thing to have, whether you do that in training or jump in a race or something like that, it gives you that that ability to kind of push a little bit beyond what you would normally do in training, practice, some of the fueling and hydration that's going to be important in those later stages. And and yeah, when you're out there, be able to feel like it wasn't too long ago that you did something longer than your kind of typical 30, 32 mile long run. Yeah. And like, I think it's also far enough away from the race itself that it's not going to in any way negatively impact your, your race. You're kind of running it on a week where you're also doing your normal week like weekdays training. So you've kind of already got tired, like running, actually running 60 miles on tired legs is probably fairly equivalent, if not the same as running, um, 100 miles on fresh legs after tapering. So it is a very good stimulus, I think, for the race itself. Um, yeah. Inevitably during that run or even during some of those back to back long runs too, I always find if you do enough of them, you end up hitting a few where it's just like you do not want to be out there and you sort of like say, okay, but I'm going to I'm going to start this, I'm going to take it. And you listen to your body making sure you're not doing anything too crazy. But a lot of times you do get through that kind of lull or that that initial kind of, I don't know about this, this doesn't feel right. And having that experience, I think is really important because you're just going to hit that spot in a hundred miles at a point where you're like, I don't know about this. Can I push through this? And having an experience of having that turn around and end up being just fine? It's really powerful. Oh for sure. And that did happen to me on some of my longer runs, like I was feeling at the start. Like, obviously I didn't want to go on them that particular day. And then you go out and you start feeling, oh, I've got a pain in my hip and oh, maybe this isn't really what I should be doing. And the voice in your head is definitely telling you to go home, but, um, I yeah, I think if you like, if you kind of force yourself probably sounds a bit extreme, but if you just stick with it and stay with it and you just tell yourself, well, I've decided I'm running for four hours, so I'm going to run for four hours. And you definitely. I 100% ran through the pain and it was gone. So in a way, I was wondering afterwards, was it like a psychological pain or was it a genuine pain? Um, because at that stage of the training as well, that was very close to the end. I think that may have been three weeks before the race, and I was just wrecked. I was really tired, you know, like the training definitely takes a toll if you're, you know, when you're when you're in a big block of training like that and um, of course, as well, you're also highly attuned to your body at that point because the last thing you want is to get injured. And every time you go out for a run, you're thinking, well, I, you know, I need to do this run, but I'm not going to do it if it results in an injury. So I think, uh, you know, in a way, you're, you're kind of bargaining with yourself quite a bit at that point in the training and, uh, yeah, getting through those, as you say, and proving to yourself that, you know, the the pain didn't really probably exist at all. It's hugely beneficial. And it's just another kind of a, you know, um, armor chink in your armor when you're out there on race day and you need to pull on all those reserves that you've picked up during the training. Yeah, absolutely. I did want to ask you, did you keep any quality working with intervals and things like that when you hit that long run development phase of training, or how did that look when you were kind of hitting those higher mileage weeks? Yeah, I kept it in because I wanted the variety and I wanted the company. Um, you know, it is very lonely to be training for such a long race on your own. And it's very, very difficult to find anyone to do those long runs with you on a Sunday. On a Saturday. So, um, I have a training group here in Dublin that I would always meet on a Tuesday. Um, now I and I continued that for intervals and I continued doing the intervals when the mileage got high and I felt like I was tired after a long weekend of running and I'd done quite a few miles, I purposely backed off the pace of the intervals. So if I was doing mile reps and I don't know, typically I do the mile reps and whatever, like, um, I'd probably have, I'd have taken an additional 10s they per mile so that I wasn't, I was kind of running, um, like, well, in the group that I run in, I was kind of running in the group. Um, that would usually be the group just after me, but like, it kept me from overextending myself and, um, like when, when I run with the group that I currently run in, I'm always kind of pushing myself more than I feel I should. So what I wanted to achieve out of that session was really just making sure that I was, um, you know, changing up the training, changing up the speed just to get a bit of, um, I suppose, different stimulus and also variety from my head and, um, you know, making sure that I wasn't running something that was going to take a long time to recover from because I didn't really have that luxury of having recovery time because I was going to have to be out the next day, you know, but, you know, pounding the roads and getting those miles in as well. So, um, it was like I was still doing the intervals, but I felt that I had a different goal from the intervals than what I would usually have. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. I think especially given your background as a, you know, a road runner at shorter distances and marathons and things like that. You're no stranger to intervals and you know, reps on the track and things like that. So you can definitely lean on that development and then kind of move into a phase of, all right, I'm not looking to create adaptations there anymore, but rather preserve what I've done over the years and then really specialize for what you're going to be doing at a race like Tunnel Hill. And I find that just makes the perfect balance, where it's almost like I kind of jokingly say sometimes, like, you know what? Not a half bad 100 mile training plan would be just to train for a marathon and then give yourself an extra eight weeks after that and then just do some, like longer run development type stuff with that, that last phase, and you're going to get quite a ways into like what I think would be putting you in a pretty good position to execute on race day for 100 miles with a strategy like that. Yeah, I fully agree. Um, because that would mean at the end of the day, you do need a bit of speed and like, I know you. Okay. Look, it's funny to say that because you don't need speed on a 100 mile race, but at the same time, when you're used to running at speed and then you're on at your 100 mile pace, it feels easy. And you want it to feel easy because you want it to be psychologically, you know, positive. So, um, I think even that side of it as well, even if you're kidding yourself, it's still, uh, it's still positive. So just go with it, you know. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I think there's a lot of value there. And it sounds like you really kind of found that needle nicely heading into it. So how's recovery been I know we're not too far out I think actually we're only a handful of days out. So you're probably still feeling a little bit of a a fax plus a flight back to Ireland and at your job now. So I imagine you haven't had a ton of time to kind of put the legs up. Well, I haven't the time to put the legs up, but you know what? They're I am amazed at how they have recovered. Like I feel fine, I'm walking. I can stand up easily. I think I was I think I was like more stiff after like a marathon at times. Um, it's been incredible. But I think what's really helped actually, is I, uh, so when I travel in and out to work, I'd either cycle or run and I this week I've been cycling in and out to work, which has like that's about a like, say 12 k cycle and um, each way. Sorry. So it's about like roughly 30 minutes. Um, so because I'm not like I'm not racing it, but um, it's been really helpful to be able to spin the legs and, um, you know, get some blood flow into them and get some, like, movement without any pounding. Um, so I actually think that's been hugely beneficial. And, uh, yeah, they're, they're not in bad shape. And I haven't tried to run yet. Um, it's now, uh, five days out. And I haven't tried to run yet, so I feel like I could probably think about maybe running in a, I don't know, maybe either tomorrow or the following day, but, um, at the same time, I'm very comfortable not running because I know that there's a huge recovery process going on, and I don't want to, like, I don't want to hamper that. And I funnily enough, I'm not dying to run either. Like, usually if I had five days without running, I would be climbing the walls. But, um, I, I seem to be managing all right without actually running at the moment, which is, uh, which is interesting. I think it probably shows that I need that time to, to just take a break from it and, and let the body do its recovery job. Yeah, absolutely. I always find the legs tend to come back a little bit faster than mine sometimes. It's one of those things where I try to think of like, well, what were like the 2 or 3 hardest training sessions I did during that last build, and how excited would I be to put those back on the schedule? And if the answer is like, no way, I probably need a little more time, at least some unstructured training before kind of getting back into the thick of things. But yeah, you know, generally, I think doing some test runs at the end of that week can kind of give you an idea of just where everything's at. And I think you're spot on with the low to no impact, like really like movement does. That's always been helpful for me. I know I've gotten lazy after races before. I mean, lazy is maybe not the right word for it given you run it 100 miles. But if you just sit on the couch and let the legs just kind of rest, that feels great in the moment. But it does make it take a day or two longer, I think, to kind of feel like everything's kind of move through versus if you just hop on a bike for, you know, 30 minutes or something like that, or hop in the pool and just move around or even go for a walk, things are just going to get some blood flow there. And I think because we're so used to it as well. I think if, um, if I were sitting on the couch, I would, I would be I probably would be struggling then. But you just need that kind of hit of fresh air and, um, maybe, maybe it's a very minuscule amount of, uh, um, you know, endorphins from cycling. I'm not too sure, but, yeah, at least you're getting some sort of, um, benefit there too. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. One other topic I wanted to ask you about too, because I'm really interested in this one is just the life training balance. So like ultrarunning as a sport has gotten a little more professional over the years now where we've got just way more examples than we did five, ten years ago of people who have put themselves in a position one way or another to essentially have, like the professional athletes lifestyle, where the number one priority of the day is the training session, and then everything they do around it can more or less sort of support that. But we still have plenty of people that are working full time jobs doing amazing things. In fact, I think between you and I believe and flower as well. Who broke the 50 mile world record on Saturday? You both worked full time jobs, so how does that Courtney Olsen as well? Um, the American 100 K record that had stood for 30 years. So she also works full time. Yeah. So three for three for the full time employees. Yeah. So for working people. Yeah. And I, I think there's, there's, there's a balance and I'm sure growth in the sport will maybe make this more or less difficult. But I think when you get into these longer events like the 100 mile, there's like this, there's this, there's the mental side of it that you just can't really tap into in training the same way as you do on race day. So I always ask myself, well, how am I training my brain to feel like I can stay on when I don't want to stay on for longer periods of time than I'm going to get in even a 30 mile long run. And a lot of times I think that's having a schedule that has you going places that you maybe wouldn't go otherwise every day, exactly when they want you to. I think there's a mental hardening from that sort of a lifestyle that really does help when you get to that, like tricky spot at 70, 80 miles, you have to really push yourself to want to still be out there versus if you're in a lifestyle where you're always kind of able to see comfort out of training. I think there might be something to that that's maybe a little more specific to the 100 mile or ultra marathon that's maybe not there for shorter Olympic distances, but I'd be curious. Your thoughts. You know, I actually haven't thought about it like that before, but now that you say it, I fully agree. It makes so much sense because, um. Yeah. You're right. Like the mental side of it, I felt that the mental side of this race was probably equally as important as the physical side. And, yeah, it's very difficult to train your brain. I did try and think of mental tools that I was going to use when I because I knew it would get tough. But, you know, that's just having tools as opposed to actually training. So, um, yeah, that's actually a really interesting idea where you're, where you're saying that. Yeah, it probably is because there have been plenty of times, you know, you're at work and you're tired and you have a deadline and you just have to reach that deadline no matter what. So you just need to keep, you know, working and certainly for me anyway, um, you know, there would be times when you'd love to just log off and go home, but you can't because you have to. You have to make your brain continue to work and do that, uh, get to the, you know, the finish line of the project or whatever it is. So, yeah, that's, um, that's a fascinating view. Um, And, you know, I think so. I agree with you fully there. But I also think that, um, you know, sometimes I do obviously look at some of the professionals, the girls that are professional and with envy and I think, wow, it must be so amazing to just only have to focus on running. But at the same time, I also feel I'm quite fortunate in that I like to have um, there are benefits to working as well. Firstly, like, you know, I actually really enjoy my job and it's a completely different focus to running. And I feel like if I was focused on running 100% of the time, I might actually enjoy it as much because it would become, you know, it would become so important that if things weren't going well or if, you know, I started rolling badly, then maybe I'd start freaking out because of the type of person I am. Whereas when I can, you know, have that as my hobby. And I always enjoy my run and I look forward to getting out for my run, and I try and, you know, make sure that I structure my day in such a way that I'll have time for it. So to me, it's a little like it's a, it's a trait or something that I really enjoy getting to do. And um, uh, yeah. As I said, it's, it's both it's individual. Everyone is different and. It's not one size fits all, but for me, I think it definitely helps that I have a different focus as well and that I can keep running as something that I just love doing. Yeah, I mean, that's a really good point. When you have a bad workout or a bad race, if that's all you're doing and that's your kind of your, your primary identity or in some cases maybe only identity, it can be really hard to manage that psychological side of things. So maybe the job is like the sports psych for the fully employed. Yeah. I'll tell my employer that I'm only doing the job because I want to run still, give me my lunch break for a run or something every once in a while. Let me go home early from time to time. Yeah, it is funny, though, because my wife, Nicole, works full time for a corporation and it's hilarious to me because she sort of has like two different personalities, her running personality and her day job personality. So when we're hanging out with people that we know from the running community, they're like, oh, Nicole is just super relaxed, doesn't wear a watch half the time, doesn't really care, just kind of does what she's supposed to do and doesn't give it much more thought. And then the day job she's got like she manages like hundreds of people and it has to be right on the calendar. And it's just so specific. So it's almost like this kind of yin and yang or this balance where, uh, to do what she does at work almost needs a total release from that. So her running is kind of that, that escape from that and then vice versa, I think, too. It's like, I think naturally she kind of likes the structure. The unstructured kind of social side probably actually enables you to be much more structured and actually perform better than in the, you know, the structured side. So they probably both benefit each other. I actually do think that is the case, and I think there's an awful lot of learnings from sport that you can bring into, um, you know, your kind of professional career if you like. Um, and that is, uh, you know, I feel like I'm really fortunate that I can when I need to, I can draw on what I've learned throughout my sporting career, in my professional career, and vice versa. Then, as you're saying, you know, the benefits of working a full time job when you're running are also, you know, hugely beneficial. So they both actually complement each other in a way. And, um, like that as well. I think if you approach it and that's the way you think about it, then it's probably more likely to be the case rather than if you look at it as something that's, you know, you just have to do and that you don't necessarily enjoy. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. The other question or topic I want to talk to you about too, that you basically just made me think about this too much. Just another layer of it, I guess is like people will ask me about ultra running and longevity within the sport. And I think most runners are curious about longevity because they see something they want to continue doing, and they want to make sure they're doing the right things for it. But then when you get to the performance side of things to, you know, professional sport, there's usually timelines of, okay, this is a range where you're likely to hit your max potential, and then after that you can maybe maintain for a while before you start kind of seeing age do its thing. And the hundred mile distance has always been interesting to me because, uh, prior to your race last weekend, you know, we had the 100 mile world record holders who were right around 40 years old. So it was like, okay, there's a pretty long timeline. And I think as a sport gets more competitive, people imagine that's just going to come in and we're going to see it match kind of maybe closer to the marathon or something like that. I'm not entirely convinced that's the case, because I think given a lot of what we talked about here with intensity and how the body can hold on to certain things longer than others, where it's like, yeah, your VO2 max can come down a little bit, and that may not necessarily outweigh the experience that you have as a runner in general, and your ability to execute on race day and things like that. And in your 45 now. So you're the 100 mile world record holder at age 45. That gives us a pretty long timeline of just like what the current sport is looking at in terms of longevity from a professional side of things or a world class performance. I guess we could say, uh, type of things. Yeah. Um, like I hear what you're saying. And actually, I think even the marathon distance is, um, you know, like the age profile of someone that runs a marathon now is much younger than it would have been, I'd say even 20 years ago. Um, so, yes, um, the age profile does seem to be coming down a lot. In other distances, I think for the 100 mile race, I think it may or it may come down, but I don't think it will come down substantially because I think you just there's just so much value to the years and years and years and years of training for, you know, such a long distance and the experiences that you've picked up along the way, um, in your approach to it. Now, I know I'm talking about it like I'm an expert and I run one, so I don't mean to, um, this is purely my own view of it. Um, but I certainly think in my limited experience that I don't know if I would have been ready to run this race. Much earlier. Maybe. Okay. Maybe five years ago. Fair enough. Because, yeah, 40 does seem like a reasonable age, but I'm not sure that you would see someone at 30. Ron, as an attempt as maybe you would. Maybe that's where it'll end up. Um, I would actually be fascinated to watch that as well, and to see how, you know, the performance there would, um, would improve because, you know, SVR, how relevant is VO2 max for the 100 mile? I mean, you obviously need to have the capacity, but you're running, you're not actually running at anywhere near your threshold or your VO2 max. It's more about your ability to maintain a pace for a long time and the mental side of it, as we said. So yeah, I'd be here. I would be curious actually to follow that as well. Yeah, yeah, I think there's probably room to lose a little bit of VO2 Max and still maintain your, your peak hundred mile potential, because I just think there's probably and maybe this a lot of times it's like we don't know the answers to these until you get like tons of competitive pressure, the way that we've seen with the marathon over the years. But, you know, we see strong marathon performances still in the late 30s, early 40s. So like, you know, you think like going from a race that's basically optimizing for lactate threshold to an event that's optimizing for aerobic threshold. That's going to give us one more reason to believe that you can do it. Um, yeah. It'll be fun to see how that goes. I know there's different theories out there about the importance of VO2 max when it comes to 100 miles and, and that sort of thing, but at the end of the day, it's quite a bit different pace wise. Yeah, yeah. Very different. I actually nearly view it as a completely different sport. Almost. Well, it's not a different sport, but it's so drastically different to a marathon that, um, it feels like. Yeah, it feels like a very, very, very different event, um, than a marathon. So, uh, yeah, it will be interesting to see how it evolves and. Yeah, watch the space, I guess. Yeah. Very cool. Well, it's been fun to chat with you about this. I think it's so fun to watch the sport grow and then the bar gets raised as we kind of push into it. Now you're one of those bar raisers within the sport of ultra running at 100 mile distance. So I can't wait to see what you do next. Do you have you I know you were mentioning earlier, you probably have had a lot of time to think about this, but has your brain gone towards like, I think I can go a little bit faster. Where would that venue be? Yeah, well, I mean, I think that's probably the competitive side of me. I'm wondering, could I, could I have gone faster or could I go faster? Um, I'd love to try. Um, I just don't know. I mean, I do think Tunnel Hill is a great course for it, and I would definitely consider going back there. The race is just so well organized. Steve Durban does a fantastic job and all the volunteers are just amazing. And um, you know, for, for a relatively small race, it's just incredibly professionally organized and, um, a very enjoyable event to do. So I would certainly consider doing it there again. I honestly, I don't really know where the others like, you know, like how you would find a course that would compare as a similar, you know, fast course at a good time of year relative. You know, you know, as you said earlier, you can kind of typically depend on good weather conditions and um, yeah, like I suppose I'll probably have to research that a bit, but um, I, I think yeah, I think it's really opened my mind to maybe challenging myself in a different way again. Um, I took on this race because I just felt like I wanted to just throw the kind of rulebook out and just try something that I'd never done before. And, uh, yeah, it's worked out well. So I think I would definitely go there again and maybe do something. Yeah, well, I'm not sure if I go longer, but I definitely do something, you know, similar in a similar vein. How do you feel about tracks like 400 meter tracks? Yeah, I have a lot of admiration for someone that runs a four year track for a day. It's an interesting thing because I think I, I mean, that was sort of my first experience with flat runnable hunters was on a 400 meter track, and I had a good experience. So sometimes I wonder if that really fed into my perspective to that venue versus a place like Tunnel Hill, because I've talked to Camille about this before too, and I believe if I remember correctly, she she likes a course like Tunnel Hill better or even a shorter loop, like we've got the the 100 mile US Championships is on like a 1.17 mile paved loop. And by that I mean, she's run strong on both venues but in both areas. But I want to say she thinks like it's a little bit better for her at the individual level to not have that 400 meter. So I don't know, maybe that's like some combination of physical or psychological variances from one person to the next. I tend to think the tracks are probably the fastest spot to do it. Still, if you can get over the short looping side of things. But there is downside to that too, where it's like there's just not a lot of options for or any options really that I'm aware of where you're going to have a 100 mile specific track ultra where there's maybe just a handful of people out there all running roughly the same pace. It's usually like you're inside a 24 or 48 or even a six day event, and then it's you're in the scenario where you're on this like super fast platform, but you're also in lanes two and three quite a bit as you're going around people in the longer distance stuff. So you have to assume a little bit of distance, um, on top of it for that too. But yeah, uh, if I can be of any help in finding venues, I'm more than happy to dig in there for you . I know there's some out there, but yeah, Tunnel Hill does stand out. If that course was entirely paved, I think that would be a hard one to argue against. Yeah. Or even if you could sweep some of the stones aside. Yeah. Um, but they're not that bad. But yeah, there are sections of it which. Yeah, we're definitely nicer than others. I suppose there's those spots where you cross that road and you actually hit pavement for like ten meters. And when you hit that, you feel how good a traction you have on that. You're like, oh, that does make a little bit of a difference. That's like, yeah, yeah, we just want the perfect course. Yeah, yeah. We might have to build it. We'll see. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Catriona, it's been a lot of fun to talk to you and hear about your experience and kind of your thought process around all of this. But before I let you go, if you don't mind sharing with the listeners where they can find your website or social media or anything like that. Sure. Well, firstly, thank you so much. Thank you for having me on and also for giving me all the advice, both directly and indirectly through your podcast throughout my training. It's really, really been incredibly beneficial and I do hope that some of your listeners will find my experience beneficial as well. If you'd like to follow me, I'm Jennings Katrina on Instagram. And, um, yeah, that's probably the best place to get me. Very cool. Awesome. Well, put that stuff in the show notes so people can go check it out and follow along on what you're up to. Very cool. If you don't mind holding on for just.