Episode 453: Cam Hanes | The Growth of Ultra

Cameron Hanes is an American bowhunter, endurance athlete, author and outdoorsman best known for his relentless pursuit of backcountry bowhunting in the remote wildernesses. His success in a variety of communities has resulted in bringing large groups of people into the sport of ultramarathon. For this episode, we talk about what draws him to ultramarathon, different approaches and personalities within the sport, and what makes the sport so interesting.

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Cam: cameronhanes.com | IG: @cameronhanes | Podcast: Keep Hammering Collective | Books: Backcountry Bowhunting, Undeniable: How To Reach The Top And Stay There, Endure: How to Work Hard, Outlast, and Keep Hammering.

Zach: zachbitter.com - IG: @zachbitter - X: @zbitter - Substack: zachbitter.substack.com - FB: @zbitterendurance - Strava: Zach Bitter - TikTok: @zachbitter - Threads: @zachbitter

Timestamps/Topics: :

00:00 Podcast Intro & Announcements

01:03 Sponsor Shoutouts & Discounts

01:48 Welcoming the Guest & Community Impact

03:04 The Growth of Ultra Running & Bow Hunting

05:55 Fitness for Hunting and Ultra Endurance

07:06 Gear Evolution & Shoe Selection

09:57 Finding the Right Gear & Race Prep

13:15 Comfort vs. Performance in Ultra Shoes

15:15 Foot Injuries & Shoe Solutions

17:15 Recovery After Tough Races

19:31 The Mental Side of Endurance & Backcountry

21:56 Running with Crew vs. Going Solo

24:29 Ultra Crewing, Fairness & Race Support

27:20 Optimizing Performance vs. Old School Ultra

33:18 Comparing Modern & Classic Ultra Experiences

36:53 Aid Station Innovations & Race Resource Access

40:43 Tech in Ultras: Super Shoes & Breaking Records

44:55 Upcoming Races & Training Tweaks

46:04 Focusing on Gear, Nutrition, and Training

48:02 High Carb vs. Low Carb for Ultra Running

53:13 Fueling, Gut Training & Performance Strategies

56:55 Cycling Science & Endurance Fuel Consistency

01:02:05 Top Performances, Nutrition Trends, & Western States

01:08:21 UTMB, Leadville, and Elite Race Storylines

01:11:00 Courtney, Katie & Women's Ultra Rivalries

01:19:31 Media, Influencers, and Growing the Sport

01:24:07 Personal Growth, Mental Strength & Elite Athletes

01:29:40 Rising Stars and Exciting Athletes to Watch

01:33:31 Sponsorships, Contracts & The Business Side

01:39:31 Maximizing Value & Athlete/Brand Relationships

01:42:01 Fitness, Influencers, & Competing in Sport

01:44:14 Sponsor Spotlights

Episode Transcript:

Alright. Cam, welcome to the show. Oh. Thanks, Zach. It's a pleasure to be here. And. Yeah, it's a big honor. I've been following you for a long time, and I know how talented you are at running. And, yes, I listened to the podcast, so it's, like I said, it's cool to be here. Yeah. And I really appreciate it. It's, It's funny, I know, I've mentioned online a few times, and it's just like, worth saying again, I think is, I appreciate everything kind of you've done for just the, the running and probably more specifically ultrarunning community in terms of just like opening it up to a whole new group of people. It's like between guys like yourself, David Goggins, Nick bear, just kind of exploring the sport a little bit. It's like such a unique group of people that I didn't know were interested in ultras, at least when I first started getting into them anyway. And when it comes to kind of what I do, which is sort of building a business within the sport, it's just kind of cool to see, like the excitement kind of shift from, oh, I need to talk these roadrunners into trying and in ultra to like people coming saying, hey, I've never really run before, but I'm kind of interested in a 100 miler and saw Cam Hanes ran 240 miles, so I figured I could probably do it. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's pretty cool. I mean, it's weird because what I've been doing for a long time, bow hunting in ultra has is, like, more popular than ever. So it's just, you know, it's fun that when you have a passion for something, other people want to learn more about it. So in your world that's ultra and my other world that's bow hunting. And yeah, it's just cool to see just people. I think with both of them, it's just very hard to get good at. I mean you got to sacrifice a lot, but it's such an incredible opportunity to grow as a human. And, because both of those things get you in the mountains, and I think the mountains are just this incredible fuel source for our life, and, Yeah. So that's been fun. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's like you said, you have an activity like backcountry hunting where you just can't get around not being in good shape and doing it. So, you know, granted, you could train to be specifically good at that, but when there's already like something in place like trail races and mountain races and things like that, it does kind of make sense that you'd want to engage with that side, that side of things and kind of leverage that within the within the hunting world. Yeah, yeah, it's been great. It just makes it a more enjoyable experience to better shape. You're back there and, yeah, but the ultra scene has been crazy. And, you know, that's where I, you know, I watched you, I think, on Rogan, I don't know how many years ago that was, but I just remember him talking to you and asking you, you know, about the American record and all that, like what pace that was. And I'm still blown away by that pace that you can run for 100 miles. It's amazing. But, yeah. So yeah, I can't wait to talk about it. Cool. Yeah, hopefully I can update that pace. I'm training for a flat 100, actually, a couple flat hundreds right now. So, trying to get the fitness in and nailed down the gear. And, you know, that's a topic I think would be kind of maybe fun to kick things off on too, because, you know, I was fortunate enough a few months ago for you to come through town and kind of join in, and test out some shoes and things like that and kind of figure out what, what shoe is most efficient for you at specific spots. So, like the whole gear topic in general, I'm sure you see this in the hunting world too, where from when you started to today, it's just gotten so much different in the sense that it's not like, oh, I just grab a pair of running shoes and that'll kind of like, take care of me for a while. It's more like, all right, I've got this very specific type of race or this specific type of intensity. There's a shoe that probably optimizes for that and to some degree gets so narrowly focused, it may not be all that good for anything other than that. Yeah. So you kind of get into this, this world of like actually picking the right tool for the right job and stuff like that. So, yeah. The what's been your experience kind of with the, the gear side of the sport. Have you, really dove into a lot of that? I'm not. That's really not my strength. I. I kind of just show up and just do whatever, but, The shoes. I am obsessed with shoes, so doing that. What was that? tell me where we were at again. At that in Austin, where we did the shoe testing. Yeah, we were at Saint Lawrence College. Yeah. Where Dustin has, has a lab there, which is. It's pretty cool. Like. Yeah, you can just bring in. I think it's four pairs of shoes, one control and three you kind of want to test and then kind of figure out, like if, if you're going to run a specific pace for a specific goal, race, then you can kind of see which one produces the best efficiency for you at the individual level and kind of go in with, with some with less guesswork, essentially. So, it's a fun, fun setup he's got going on there. Yeah. Dustin. Yeah. That, that. Okay. So Dustin was great. I just want to make sure I got that nailed down. Right. And I have a video I was putting together on that. We're kind of behind on videos. But it was a great experience. One thing that I've, you know, you kind of get I think people can get obsessed about gear choices and shoe choices and this and that. Because, you know, we just did Leadville, me and my son and, you can like thinking about that race because it's like people say, oh, it's fast. It's like a lot of roads. So you're like, God, can I get away with a road shoe on? Like a road running shoe, you know, because it's ounces add up and this and that, and then you can kind of, you know, so I wrote I wore like the Speed Lands road version for most of it. And then I switched to going into the trail version because it's a little more, you know, I've hurt my foot by trying to run and run trails in a road shoe. And so there's like that fine line of weight, function, durability, support. And then on top of that, so that's just your feet. But then on this one, how much gear you're taking up over Hope pass. I took, beanies and gloves and a puffy because I'm like, oh, if these thunderstorms hit, these people are going to get, you know, because we kind of dealt with that at Coco Donut where we had some really kind of intense weather for a long race. And I think that I'm not saying I'm hypothermic, but when you're pushing hard in the mountains and you get a big storm coming through, it can really knock you down and your performance suffer. So, like, all those little choices. And then there's fuel choices and then people get, you go so crazy on the fuel, like the high carb and, and then you've been keto, I think, for a million years. And it's like, I think for a new person coming to the sport, it's just like. That would be. That's a lot. I think. Yeah. To the whole point that was, I think at the end of the day. No matter what you do, it's going to be really hard and you're going to suffer. And I think it's just how much grit you have is kind of what makes a difference. Yes. There's different levels of your performance. And could you come in and maybe even an hour or two faster if you did everything perfectly. But at the end of the day, it's just going to be really hard and it's going to be a huge accomplishment to finish no matter what you choose and how you get there. Yeah, absolutely. And it can be easy, like you said, for someone new to get a little bit overwhelmed with all the different things. And, you know, some things are like smaller considerations versus large ones. So not getting too hung up on too much of that is always, always a good stuff, good stuff to consider. And for some of these longer ultras too, it's like with the shoe performance, it's like, that's great. But I think comfort and stability are probably going to be for a race like Leadville in most people's circumstances, is going to be the better route to go versus trying to find like 1% efficiency benefit on a treadmill. And and I mean, speed lens options are awesome for that too. I think like with, it's been fun kind of testing out a variety of different shoes this year. And, you know, some, some brands you can kind of tell they're like, we want to make a shoe that has a little bit of a wider reach to it where, yeah, maybe it's not going to be like the 5% efficiency standard on a flat road, but it's going to be able to be serviceable enough from a performance standpoint, but also be able to hop off onto a trail, very terrain, keep stability and, you know, maybe not roll your ankle coming down the whole pass. And yeah, I think they've got some great options for that sort of a target. And you can and a lot of people, they just need a starting point too. And like when, when you get into the world of shoes, it's like it's hard to pinpoint an option for someone if you don't know a lot about them or you're not actually fitting them at, like, a running shoe store. So, you know, brands like Speed Land, I think are really valuable in terms of getting them into something they can at least start that process with and not end up getting hurt in the shoe right away or something like that. Yeah. I mean, there's been, you know, there was that zero drop or whatever phase that really kind of I think gave people a lot of like Achilles problems because that was, that was like a popular thing for a while as the zero drop. And then you got the now I think you got the opposite of that, the 40 mil limit on some of these meets like sometimes too much lift in the back. and yeah, you can just go down this rabbit hole. But I think if I look, if I think about my race at, At Leadville. I wore those two shoes I never had. I maybe had one tiny blister, but I never had to address anything on my feet. So, when you have. So I was out there 24 hours. But if you're having foot issues because you maybe selected a shoe that maybe wasn't perfect, but maybe it'd make you more efficient, but then it's causing you, you know, your feet to be compromised and you're dealing with that at every aid station. Whatever gain you had from a lighter shoe is lost tenfold, you know? And who knows how your pace suffers. So I know that. Yeah. Could I have a lighter shoe, maybe barely, but I just know I had no feet problems and I just was able to push the whole time. And feet weren't a concern, which that's not always that. I've had a lot of races where my feet were dictating how I did at the end because they were so torn up. so to your point about, maybe focusing more on comfort than like this small percentage and performance enhancement, I think is the key. I think that's a great point. And, you know, I just lived it just recently at Leadville and I was glad about my decision on what shoes to wear. Yeah. Yeah. And for you too, right now, you've been dealing with a broken foot for. It seems like over a year. Yes. Yeah. So you probably have to consider how your foot feels within the shoe with that respect to, in terms of making sure that doesn't become a problem for you. Yeah. I just, you know, finally started to heal a little bit. You know, it's my fault that I never took any time off, but I was just pretty hesitant to have two surgeries, essentially, like, surgery for the plate. have the bone heal and then have surgery to take the plate out. So I was just like, well, let me just see if I can push through. I had this Coco donor shoe coming out, so I couldn't really get surgery because so much was riding on that I had to, like, we had this big release and I was supposed to film it and I'm like, okay, I can't whatever. I just got to push through. And then I did and I'm like, well, God, if I can do that, do I really need surgery? And the only thing that's kind of so now it's finally started to heal. I did some bone stipulation. I bought this machine and I didn't want to get cut on essentially. But it finally started to heal. But what it did is like where it broke on that fifth metatarsal. It's like there was such a big gap. Then it started to fill in. So it made what should be like the length of my foot now a little longer because that bone filled in where it should have been pulled together. So it's a little longer. So on the back of it there's some impingement, but who knows. That's it's like, you know how when you run these long races, a little tiny impingement in the bone of your foot is probably like down on the list because everything else is hurting, right? If you're miserable. so I'm good, but, yeah. Got through those big races, and now I can kind of recover with hunting season by having a hunting boot and, but, yeah, I think you mentioned, like, having the right shoe that wasn't gonna exacerbate that issue was key. And Speedline does have a pretty wide profile on the foot. I remember when we did that test, if you look at it I can't remember what I had, I know I had the Saucony and I think I had maybe some Asics H6 metal speed I think. Yeah, yeah. And then if you look at the back, those shoes from the back, like speed land, are like this wide and maybe the Asics is this wide. So it looks like so much more shoe but that's what it takes in the mountains. You have to have that good, that good platform. So yeah, it's just kind of interesting just going through it. Yeah, right. Tool for the job for sure. So. Cool. Yeah. And I mean, you did the coca donna in Leadville double this year heading into a kind of hunting season. And what was that like kind of recovering from Coca Dona and having Leadville on the schedule. Were you able to turn things around and get some decent training in, or was it just kind of like trying to get there and see what happens? Yeah, I mean, after coca Dona, I was pretty banged up and then I got sick afterwards, I think because I guess you get so beat down after three days of no sleep. I slept for, like, maybe four hours, I think, in three days. So your body is really open, and there's like, Covid going through the Arizona Trail or something or whatever, I don't know, but anyway, I got neuro virus. So I think that, like, kind of set me back a little bit. So I took mostly a month off. And then I did this, kind of this backyard ultra thing here on like, well, I'm just going to go. Hadn't really run since Coco. Coco has been done for about a month. And I'm like, oh, I'm just going to go and get a big day out here, see what I can do. So I did 40 miles. That was my first time, and that was maybe June 12th. So it was about a month after Coco did exactly, maybe a little bit more. So I did a 40 miler. Then I'm like, okay, well if I can do 40, just, you know, whatever. I think I still was kind of deciding on Leadville because I, I had I didn't really plan on it. But Salty Britches is one of truest sponsors. And they're like, hey, we got a bib for you. And I was just like, oh, God. Can I really not? Can I really say no? I don't want to do Leadville. Of course I want to do Leadville. But it's like I want to do everything. And, that gets me into problems sometimes, but I'm like, oh, well, let's see what we can do. So I kind of just patch things together and made it to Leadville and, yeah, I don't. I don't know that I was at my best because I couldn't run for a while, for quite a while during that. But we made it happen. It was fun. Yeah, yeah. It's also just like, I think the interesting side of the sport too, is you have the physical component, obviously, but then there's like the mental component and just like reminding yourself how far you can kind of go beyond where these like kind of early limitations you place in yourself often enough. I'm sure that's valuable in the backcountry, where in that scenario you probably have I mean, there's not going to be like, oh, here's this aid station. And if worst comes to worst, they can shuttle me out of here. You're kind of like out there and left to your own, your own decision making at certain points and things like that. So I would imagine reminding yourself occasionally before big trips is just good to know. Like, I like how much you can tolerate when you're in potentially compromising situations. Yeah. You know, in the mountains Yeah. As you mentioned, you're responsible for everything. So when you think of a race, you're like, they are very daunting. And it's like a long way. And you question my ability, but it's just different because I know that there's people there specifically just to make sure I have what I need and aid stations and this and that. And, there's safety concerns and there's, you know, there's power and other people, of course, who are by themselves in the mountains. That's what gets a lot of guys out of the mountains is just being alone. People aren't used to being alone for that long and having everything you do. I mean, even a regular life. We try to convince ourselves that, you know, we're calling our own shots and this and that, but it's pretty controlled. You know, in the mountains, there's no, no rules. And, yeah, it's definitely different, I think. I think both have helped, you know, the ultra has helped the mountains and the mountains have helped ultra. And, yeah, it's just been kind of a perfect storm, but I grew from both of them and appreciate both of them for different reasons. But, yeah, the mountains, it's definitely different. I don't know. I think that I love high stakes, and so I kind of like that more, You know, like even Leadville. I, you know, true it. He had he mentioned in his film, he said, you know, I got a crew, I got pacers, I got everything perfect. He goes, my dad doesn't have anything. He just chose to show up. And, that's kind of how I like it. I mean, there's a few pacers, but, you know, my brother, you know, is fun to run with. And my son ran with me. He ended up running with me, my oldest son. But for the most part, I just like showing up and just seeing what I can do. Yeah, that's actually an interesting topic I wanted to ask you about too, because after Western states this year I like I got myself into a little bit of trouble by bringing up a topic online, as one does right? Nowadays, if you bring up any topic online, you're going to get yourself into some trouble. And it was basically just like, I mean, Western States is just such a fun race to watch kind of evolve over the years to like from just the, the, the level of the quality of the live stream that we have now. and just being able to kind of like see it from your couch versus basically having to be out there to experience it in a meaningful way prior to the last few years. But then also just the optimization where these crews are like basically formula one pits now where you have like ten people at an aid station waiting for you to come in, all with one specific job, and you just show up, stand there and it's like, get bottle fed and washed off and cooled down and then back out there in 30s. And it's just like a different sport almost, or a different, different maybe target in terms of like where performance can reach. And in one respect, I think that's kind of cool to see. Like how fast can you move through that environment when you're got all hands on deck? But the part that I wonder about is just how that separates what is ultrarunning. I think it was always kind of a really cool experience at the start of these things, like the Jim Walmsley of the world or the Kilian Journeys of the world standing there. And then you have a, you know, a person who's maybe going to just barely finish under the cutoff. And realistically, they're kind of going through the same experience or they got a realistic number of resources available to them that are similar. Now, it's like there couldn't be any bigger gap between someone who shows up at Western Stage with no crew, no pacer, versus someone who brings in the whole team. And do you have any thoughts on that in terms of like what you think would be is there a line in the sand we should draw with respect to supporting these things, or do we just say like let people do what they want to do? Let me think. I personally, just because I've been. So I ran my first ultra in 2005, so it's been 20 years. I know people have run a lot longer than I have, but I, I remember, and I don't want to because bow hunting does this all the time too. Like, oh, we need to go back to what everybody's talking about, how great the good old days were. But when I think of ultra, I like it, because my brother Taylor's been doing this a long time, too. And I remember he would show up in, like, a Western shirt with a button, you know, button up. Just like, for whatever reason, I can't remember who that was. Kind of like the dirt bag kind of style, right? You know, you had Anton, who had no shirt. And I remember I ran west, white River 50, and he was there. And, you know, I didn't do good, but of course he probably crushed it. But, I liked that. Kind of like, oh, this guy. Look at that guy. That's just a mountain guy that's just in, now. so anyway, you had no crew, no pacer. Really. Sometimes I remember I'd go out and run like a 50 K at Siskiyou with, like, just two bottles in my hand and no shirt. I was like, I'm, oh, this is only 30 miles. I can get through this fast. I can just sprint through this. so that's kind of what I, how I learned to come up. And then if you go, you know, you're talking about the crew and how efficient everybody is. And it's like it's all about like optimization of performance. And there's fuel and there's spreadsheets and there's this team and it's, you know, the runners still doing it. But all that makes such a big difference between some guy who's just coming in by themselves and like looking at the aid station food and like, God, what? okay, I'll take a banana and a piece of, you know, or a corner of peanut butter and jelly sandwich. It is night and day difference from, you know, when Roach came in at Leadville. You know, he didn't have a big crew, but he's very efficient. He knew exactly what he's going to do, how many calories he needed. How? You know, this section was this much. He's going to go at this pace. Here's the temperature. Here's what his salt output is going to be. Here's what he's going to need to put in for calories and carbs, which is amazing and awesome. And he's a I think he's a lawyer. His wife's a doctor. So they have like all these resources to put into his performance. Whereas the guy in the back of the pack, or I'll even say me on that one where I was just carrying everything is, is I'm not saying that. I mean, he beat me by like, oh my God, what was it, nine hours. So it's not like it's going to make nine hours difference, but it is a lot different for sure. and then you talk about, so if you talk about international, at Western, if you have somebody who lives here and they have this crew and they have all this somebody coming from Europe, are they going to fly everybody over here? A whole team over here. That's very expensive. And then, I mean, I hate talking about diversity and inclusion and all this bullshit, but whatever it's like it is, it does limit competition. When you're saying to compete at the highest level, you have to have all this. Well, maybe there's a great runner who doesn't have any money, who can't compete at that. So maybe, to be fair, which again, I hate that, but it would just be like, no, you show up, you're carrying everything. We'll see at the end. We'll see who wins. So that's another way to look at it. But anyway, I don't know if yeah, I know what you're talking about, but. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of like a weird spot in the sport now where the professionalization is there, but it's still fairly exclusive, and it's not like these brands are going out and finding top tier talent in spots where these people would have a hard time getting discovered if it weren't for that. The way you may see it is like the marathon or some of the Olympic distance stuff. So you do kind of have that transition period of just like, okay, people who have already arrived or who have the resources to maybe put in a couple of years of high quality racing and get identified, maybe end up in a situation where they can get those resources. Whereas like someone like you mentioned like super fast, but is, you know, working a ten, 12 hour day shift somewhere and, and trying to put in the training and would be the next Jim Walmsley, but, just can't get, can't put together two years worth of racing at a high enough caliber because they don't have that access to it. That is, I think, an unfortunate side. I wonder, though, if as a sport grows, just based on the feedback I got when bringing that topic up, there does seem to be a really big appetite for events that are a little bit more like, all right, we're going to be really light on the resources. We're going to have some stuff out here, and we're going to give you some options to kind of have what you need. But to the degree that you're going to be bringing in half a dozen to a dozen people at every aid station, or having access to a ton of stuff that is different from whatever else is, is really low. I just wonder if we're going to see popularity in that side of the sport and events pop up, that kind of take that, and then that side grows a little bit, and then people who kind of want to have that experience or are into that a little bit more are going to be able to have more options. And they maybe currently do. Yeah, it'll be interesting. It's, because running is so dictated or I mean, measured by time. So people love, you know, just like you're going for the American record and all that. It's just like it's. What's your time? Like, how fast can you do this? So yeah, it would take a different focus from yeah, this isn't going to be as fast. Like, you know, this 100 miler is not the same as this other 100 miler, which we kind of know that right now. There's there's some very tough hundreds. There's, you know, hard rock as far as compared to, what's the one in the desert down there that everybody is fast, I think. Didn't you, Pavlina? Yeah. You know, so, yeah. Hundreds of nights and days are different, you know what I mean? So. Right. Yeah. We do. We can reason with that and get that, but it's, Yeah, it'd be interesting to see if that's. That's the direction I know. Like, now when you think of Western is always about, Western specifically, splits and how fast can get up the escarpment and how fast are you getting here? And, you know, I think what was it, was it 1409? Is that Walmsley recording something like that? And then Caleb got 1412 or something. But that, you know, it's all about the seconds and the minutes. So it will take a little bit. I like to grind it out hard as opposed to the track meets because track meets or track meets. It's different from a mountain ultra, and I like them both, but they're just different. Yeah for sure. And yeah, I mean Javelina I think has. I don't know if they did this intentionally or if they just kind of arrived in this scenario. But the way that's set up is, you know, it's the five like 20 mile loops essentially that first loops a little longer. They have that little add on there to kind of get it to the right distance. But you can only crew and pace at the start finish, or you can only crew at the start and finish and you can have pacers, but, you know, one at a time. So it's maybe a little lower bar to kind of find, find somebody, especially with how popular that event's got. Now, I think there's probably people that are just like willing to jump in and pace you if you really want one and you don't have one, but you can't get crude at any of the other three aid stations around that loop. So it does kind of like when I watch that, that event girl, I get a little more excited because I feel like the gains that we're seeing in that one is probably a little bit more specific to maybe someone like David Roche, who's like, you know what? I think we're limiting ourselves by not doing 150g of carbohydrate per hour. I'm going to try that and then, you know, go and blast a fast time there. yeah. Events like that get me a little more excited, I think, because I can compare them to prior performances, maybe a little bit more cleanly. And, you know, for whatever reason, that's my preference. But, everyone's going to have their own opinion on that, I suppose. Yeah. And I mean, if you think about it, too, I think even all those categories, if we talk about. I mean, time to train. access to fuel science about fueling and then even pacing. Because I know when I've had people pace me, having the right pacer makes a big difference. I don't know if you think this, too, but, there's sometimes, like, a pacer knowing whether you want to talk or not talk or if they're going to lead or you're going to lead. It's like all that is like, because to me, ultra is so mental. All that adds up. If you have a team and your pacer knows exactly what you want and how to pace you. That's also a huge advantage. So it's like there's so many variables and as we have kept saying it's like, yes, it's a 100 mile race from here to here, but so many variables affect that performance. And yeah, it's like, how do you strip it down to make it fair or whatever? Or I like your point to where it's more, the comparisons are more equitable, I guess, because that influence isn't as much as like in a mound, for sure. But, yeah, I mean, all, all fun discussions. It's all great. It's, you know, we're talking about ultrarunning. How sweet that is. Right? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. We should be fortunate to be able to argue about it at this point, so. Well, what did you get the trouble for though? What would you bring up? Oh, so yeah, I just, I just basically kind of asked a question about like, where at what point are we creating, like, two different events here? and I used as an example of, I don't know if you saw some of the clips where, like, they had, like kiddie pools out at, at some of the aid stations they had filled with ice water. So people were doing full body immersion, which if you look at the research, that's the way to do it. Like that is the biggest benefit of cooling is getting that full submersion and bringing that core temp down. and I just used that because I thought that was maybe like the best example of just how far we've kind of reached into, like, let's make this aid station something totally unique for the people who are going to have access to this versus anyone who comes through randomly. And, I think those pools were brought in by CTS, like the coaching. And they got a little upset with me because they took that as me saying that. They were like, you know, creating an environment that wasn't fair or something that, honestly, I think it was like that was just the most, like, entertaining example I could have used. We could have just I could have also just said, like, hey, we've got crews that are massive. And that would have been a little bit more, specific to like pretty much everyone probably in the top ten at this point, to differentiate a bit. But yeah. So it was fair at the bearer thing. VPN or where was it? Kiddie pools. Oh, that was at western states. Oh. Western states. Oh, so that was okay because I know it. At VPN they had cooling stations too. Didn't they out there. Oh I don't know. They might have. Yeah. It's possible I think. But that was different because that was I think available for everybody. Are you saying the kiddie pools were just for like, specific runners? I think I actually think like them, I don't think they were turning people away to be fair to them. I don't think they were like, okay, this is just for like CTS athletes or only people who are podium contenders or something like that. I think if someone came up and asked to use it, they could. But I also think like, to what degree is that actually going to be accessible when like, you know, some people probably know they're there and they're planning for it, whereas other people maybe come through randomly and they're just like, oh, there's a kiddie pool full of ice water, but it's by someone else's tent. I probably can't use it and they don't even bother engaging. So it's like, I guess maybe like if I wanted to really get into the weeds with it, I would say, like, if we're gonna allow that, it should be like made known at, like the pre-race briefing. Hey, so-and-so's providing these ice pools if you want to use them, they're open to everybody. or or just like, you know, Western states as a, as a, as a, as a race organization. Like limits, like what you can actually bring into the aid stations in terms of supplies or resources that go above and beyond what is actually being provided. I think that's probably what we'll get to eventually is eventually, just because there's a lot of like this conversation is had begun far before this in terms of just how built up these aid stations are getting and kind of how difficult maybe it is to be able to crew your runner at certain ones, especially when you get to kind of like the meat of the field. Yeah. So I think that's probably something they're going to have to try to address at some point anyway, just with the remote access type stuff specific to that. Because, because that's another one that's just unique to where to do western states. Right. As a crew, you have to have two crews because you can't physically get to all those aid stations with one vehicle. So then you have that on top of it where it's not enough just to have one really good crew. You got to have two really good crews, and then you got to have the resources to drag in a kiddie pool and the ice that's required to fill it up continuously. And yeah, it gets into a territory of very specific resource availability, I think. So, whether they whether they do it or not, probably I think is just, it just it becomes like, what's the message or what kind of messaging goes in around it ahead of time so that people are aware is probably the best starting point with a lot of this stuff is people aren't as opposed to things happening if they know about them versus finding out about them after the fact. Yeah. No, that's, Yeah. I didn't even know about that. I hadn't heard that one. So. But yeah, it's a great discussion. It's, got to be you gotta, gotta have at least talked about whether to know whether it's viable or not. Maybe it's no big deal, but yeah, all these things are fun to talk about and. Yeah, sorry you got beat up for that one. It wasn't too bad. It was like no worse than any type of online controversy, I guess, where there's like different opinions involved with it. So I wasn't too scared with it. I didn't skip any runs as a result. So that's good. Well, I mean, what I look at or how I look at it is when people are passionate about something, they have a lot of feelings about it. So to me, that's a good thing. It's like if people didn't care, then it wouldn't be growing and people wouldn't be talking about it. We wouldn't have this podcast about it. So I liked it. People care and they have their, you know, they get worked up. It's great. That's what makes it so good is we love this stuff. But, because of that, you're going to have opinions and, and I don't want to say like at Kokoda, people will say, oh, you're acting like you don't have a crew or pacers. And I had a million people at Kokoda, and I did have people helping me at Leadville. So I'm not saying like, I'm just like, I think there's some people that show up. I think Andy Clay may show up with no crew usually. And, he does rely on the aid stations, I believe. So it's not like just a total dirtbag just doing it himself. But there are varieties in the field. And, so I'm not saying that I'm one way. And then the people who take advantage of all the resources are bad because they're the other way. I don't do anything, I'm just talking. It's no biggie to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting thing. It's also kind of, I guess similar to, did you see the recently Adidas put on a, I think they called it, chasing 100 where it was 100 km, like totally optimized, perfect circle loop. And they had all this like new tech and stuff ready for these runners. And their goal was to break six hours for the 100 K. And one of the one of the inputs was this new shoe that they have. That is, I think it's still a little murky as to what the actual specs of it were, but it was like a 60 millimeter stack height. So it was like well above the world Athletics thing. So it was like, I mean, it was basically the 100 K version of what Kipchoge did for the sub two hour stuff. And they had actually three guys go under the previous world record. One of them broke six. He ran like 5920 I believe. So it worked right. Like them, they got the marketing piece. But it's also like when you look at that from like where are we heading from a brand marketing standpoint in terms of. Like putting up performances or comparing performances and things like that in order to like put a big spotlight on the brand. So like, that's another one where I kind of I'm like 5050 on because for one, it's like, it's cool to have a brand like Adidas come in and say like, you know what? We've kind of ignored some of the road controlled loop parts of the sport quite a bit. Relative to the trails or it's just not grown in popularity. We think there's some options here and we think there is some visibility here. And something like that is definitely going to bring that to it. Yeah. and maybe expose that side of the sport to people who otherwise weren't paying attention or knew about it, or realize they have options to do that. So I love that. But then like the like, how do you compare that to, like, someone who goes out to like the world championships and runs like six hours and 12 minutes for 100 K and way less optimal scenario, or Sorokin, who has the world record for 100km and he was part of the event. So I'm sure he's okay with it. But, you know, like, you can't really compare his 605 to the five 5920 with those two, those two performances because of just like, you know, the lack of regulation, I guess, is the way to say it. So, it's kind of a similar thing on the roads to where as the sport grows, we're kind of seeing a lot of like questions get asked or things get tested where there's really no rules about them. So we don't really have any reason to be upset about it because they didn't necessarily do anything wrong. But it gets that conversation started for sure. Yeah. It reminded me of you truly getting beat up a little bit earlier this year for downhill marathons, right. Because that's. Oh, yeah, that's kind of a thing is they have these races I think mostly. Well, no, there's one in Washington too, but a lot in Utah because you can start up in the mountains and then you end up in town. And it's cool to run fast. And people like these times, and they're getting these Boston qualifying times on a net downhill course. So I saw Boston had to address it. I think they made it 1500ft over the course of the 6.2. But we did a 10-K just recently, and it was a downhill one. I did, and I wasn't any faster. I mean, I think my body's so broken up, but, so I didn't really take advantage of it. But true, it ran, I think like a 3158 on that. It's like, I think we lost 600ft or something in the 10-K. But, you know, it just reminded me of that. Yeah, if the downhill stuff, the time stuff, people are just getting there, just looking at everything nowadays, and, yeah, I know, I know it's just true. It being online, that was just a reason people could sling some shit to them. I guess sometimes it's just a magnet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, he could have really stirred up if he would have, like, started putting that in, like in his profile, like, this is my PR. No. Yeah. Oh yeah. People do that for sure. But, yeah. People get worked up. It's all good. It's, like I said, it means they care. true. It uses it, I think like the downhill specifically, if I think about it, is just getting used to that leg turnover, getting your body used to going that fast. It can translate to faster on flat, you know, if you do it right. And that's kind of how true he's kind of used it as, you know, how you get on the treadmill. I don't get on a treadmill, but he gets on the treadmill and he does it super fast. You probably do this too for your speed workout. And, yeah, your body neurologically does get used to that leg turnover. And it does translate to faster performance on flat. So, he's used it for a benefit for sure. Yeah. And even I remember like when Ian Sharman was in his like, Western States phase, where he was top ten for nine years in a row, he would do many of those years, one of the downhill marathons, kind of almost as like a a test of where his downhill running ability was, because on a course like Western states, that makes a huge difference. If you can survive those downhills and get into Forest Hill, then you know you're going to be in a much better place to run fast on some of those more runnable sections in the second half of the course. So yeah, I think there's a lot of applications for those. But yeah, then yeah, you get the Boston Marathon qualifying crowd into the conversation and they're going to have opinions for sure. Yeah, yeah I mean it's all good. It's like so you get that end of it. Then it's like you get like where people who are track, people say is ultrarunning basically just power hiking. So you're just like, you get the power hikers to the runners, to the track meets, to the no crew. It's just crazy how much discussion there is on something. That's been around a while now, but yeah, it's like, I think there's all these new people in the influxes of, different ideas and, different thoughts and, yeah, we'll end up somewhere cool, but it's been fun. So what's yours, what's your next goal? It's like that American record again. Yeah. So I've got two races. There's one. There's a race in Des Moines, Iowa called The Equalizer Endurance Run, and they've got like 24 hours and below. Basically it's really nice like just under a two mile loop. Real flat. Yeah. That I'm going to kind of use as a way to kind of see where I'm at more or less, and then hopefully do Desert Solstice in December like another one to try to see if I can lower my 100 mile per hour. And, I've actually, so for this bill, there's like a couple like, I guess there's probably three big moving parts for me. Like one is I, I had Achilles some Achilles issues earlier in the year, so I was on the bike a ton, and I, I think I learned a lot about that in terms of where its application might be in terms of just having structured bike training in my training through the entirety of it, versus just using it as a crutch when I hurt myself. Yeah. And so I've kind of kept that in. So that's kind of been an interesting experience. Then there's the shoe tech. When I ran 1119 I wasn't wearing super premium foam for that. So, you know, I talked to Jeff Burns who between Dustin and Jeff, those two guys are like two of the best guys in the world, really, in terms of like the foam, like efficiency and things like that. And Jeff was saying like some of the top shoes on the market for a hundred miles compared to a control shoe could be like a 10 to 30 minute variance there. So we're getting to like meaningful numbers at that point for sure. I mean, we are extrapolating out pretty far for like a treadmill efficiency test into like mile 80 of 100 miler. But, you know, the option or the potential for it, I guess, is there. And then, I'm, I've never done a 100 miler on anything but low carb. So I'm trying high carb for this one just to see like Dave, David Roche got me all those 150 grand. Yeah, I know, it's like I gotta try it. I haven't, I've, I've done I've done some 50 milers early in my career on, on and on high carbohydrates. But I've never done a 100 miles or so between biking, shoes and dietary shifts. I've got like quite a few moving parts, but, you know, hopefully it all lines up with good enough fitness to take a swing and see if I can get a faster 100 mile time than I have in the past. That'll be exciting. Excuse me. Yeah. So what? I think with the high carb. What about training your stomach? Is that a big part of it? Because I know that. Yeah, I think that's a huge after ten hours of hammer and gels or whatever the hell it's going to be that does add up on your stomach. So do you. Do you think there's a philosophy in training your stomach like that? Yeah, absolutely. Because I thought about this, like, actually last year I did a 100 miler where I was still low carb, but I tried increasing my carbohydrate intake. So when I ran 1119 I had about 40g per hour of carbohydrate. So my thought was like because I got went in and got like tests done to kind of confirm that the intensity and the pace I was going to be targeting would be supported from, you know, I got my fat ox and my carbohydrate metabolism identified, and that's where I came up with that 40 gram number. So my thought was like, you get these if you put David Roche on a treadmill, it's never going to suggest that he needs 150g of carbohydrate per hour. It's going to be much lower than that. But guys like him and some of these cyclists are showing, I think that there's maybe just something we're not really aware of that's going on with that massive amount of intake that is producing faster, faster times for one reason or another. So my thought back then was, well, maybe I can get that same sensation, but within the context of low carb. So I did a race where I upped it to like 60. I think it was up to maybe a little over 60g per hour for that one, which is like a, you know, 50% increase from what I had done prior. But I didn't notice any benefit from going that much higher versus what I did before from a perceived effort standpoint. So then I was sort of left with this thought of like, well, maybe I maybe it's just something unique to the dietary approach in and of itself. And for whatever reason, if you kind of put yourself in the low carb category, it's just a different game, and that sort of approach isn't necessarily going to yield any additional benefits. But perhaps it does if you're high carb during your training and things like that. So then my next thought was like, okay, maybe I should try actually doing a full training cycle. High carbs do like what you said practice because that's going to be the biggest thing I think is like, can I actually ingest the carbohydrate requirements to get. To what I would need to support what? What will be a different fat ox carbohydrate metabolism with the dietary inputs I have currently. And I think that's probably going to be closer to 80g at a minimum. And then if I can get up to 100, that's probably maybe where I can start exploring. Like are there some benefits for me beyond what I would physiologically, technically need? but it's been a bit of a process. So if I've been doing it, I'm on like week nine. So I've just kind of started getting into the phase where I'm really hammering carbs during long runs or my long runs are getting long enough where I can really start kind of testing that. Yeah. so I've got like a few runs now where I've done it. And so far it's going well. I wouldn't say I'm in a spot where I could push it out to ten 11 hours yet, so I've got more work to do in order to be able to, I think, make it work. Right. But, that's probably why I've got two races on this. The first one I'm going to kind of use is like, all right, let's just really try to give this a good, a good dress rehearsal and see how I respond to it. Give myself some opportunities, maybe to troubleshoot if I need to and figure some things out, and then hopefully learn enough from that one to be able to carry it into Desert Solstice and have some, some precedent with it versus doing it for the first time. Yeah. It's, for me, like, when I think about that, I get so sick of eating, I get it. And just like. Yeah, yeah, you know, how do you run? Like, you just want to get in a zone, like a flow state. So I don't know if I've been in a flow state, but I'm not thinking about it. It's like with that type of stuff, you can never stop thinking about taking it, right? Either fuel or hydration or salt. And that is hard for me. That's like a whole nother form of dedication is staying on top of that. Because as a runner, I just want to cruise and feel good, not think about, oh, I got to get this gel then, you know what I mean? Yeah, that's exhausting in some ways. So I respect people who can just be all in on that. And when you were saying that, I was thinking like, so if your body can only take in, you say 80, but you're, you're going way overboard with like the 50, are you building the I'm, I'm not smart. So the way I'm thinking about it is like, yeah. Oh God. When I used to drink, I used to like, want to get a buzz and you don't want to lose the buzz, so you just kind of keep. Right? Keep that buzz going. It's like. It's like a car buzzing. You know? You gotta you gotta. Yeah. You got to earn this buzz. Let's keep piling it on. But is there a tipping point just like with drinking or you're just like, okay, no, I went too far. yeah. What's interesting is, how where does the science like, how can the science measure, like if you have a built up reservoir of it, how can it measure whether that's good or bad or helping or hurting that that would be hard. Like yeah. 120 How do you measure whether that's good for you? If you said 80 should be your max? Right? Yeah. And we're getting into the world of speculation there, which is what I think is fun about it. It's on the fringes of what we know. Yeah. which is where David, I think, is, that's why he's such a, you know, interesting guy to follow is because he's sort of he has, like, he's he's trying to kind of like, stay maybe a step ahead of the science to some degree and catch that early wave. I mean, there's precedent to it. I know he says he talks to a lot of cyclists and Tour de France athletes and coaches to kind of get which is not a bad group to look at because, you know, we have the research, right. That's been kind of vetted and, and peer reviewed and all that. But then you get these big teams at the Tour de France who have their own exercise physiologists on staff, and they're getting these riders and testing them and finding what's going to work for performance. So to some degree it's like, yeah, we're not necessarily getting published literature out of that group, but we can maybe get a peek into what's going to come down the pipe in the future once science catches up a little bit. So. Yeah. I mean, there's even some controversy around, just like because the way I've looked at it historically is like, if I go into a lab and dial up my shoes it's pretty much similar to what you did with the shoes. We dial up the pace that I'm going to target or the intensity that I'm going to target, and then I get a chart that says, you're burning this ratio of fat to carbohydrate. Then I can kind of apply that to the pace. So for like my 100 mile fastest time, I was probably somewhere between 800 to 1000 calories an hour would have been like my workload. So if I knew that at that intensity, I'm 20% carb, 80% fat, I can start piecing together. Like, where is that sort of replacement needed there? Yeah. there's some research that is looking at like that that's not even something you you really even need to entertain, because it's like it's delayed enough, I guess, where it's not something that's going to actually increase performance from just like a, like a muscle glycogen or liver glycogen replenishment during the event itself. And it's more about just maintaining stable blood sugar. So then it's just like just enough carbohydrate to maintain stable blood sugar is where the performance is going to get. I have a lot of questions about that though, because like those studies are really new and they're there. They're not necessarily done like elite athletes. And they're also not done in ultramarathons where it's like, you know, we actually have a legitimate fuel. Scenario here, where you're out there for so long. Like, I just don't know how you would just simply maintain blood sugar on a high carbohydrate diet with really minimal carb inputs. I think there's just more that we likely don't know. But to some degree, we also don't know what fat oxidation rates are necessarily doing over the course of a long race like that, too, because it could be something where like those are up regulating to a degree and accounting for the lack of carbohydrate if you back off. But, I think when you look at a lot of the top tier performances nowadays, it's just hard to find guys not hitting close to 100g per hour on some of these top performances. So in my mind, that's worth giving it a shot at least, and see what happens. And who knows, maybe I haven't been the porta potty more than I end up on the course. And I find out that for me, that's not the answer. But the guys who can make it work like David, it seems like it's a way to kind of hack some performance if you can make it, make it fit. Yeah. And you know, I'm, I'm not a bike rider at all. But I love the Tour de France and like thinking about them, their carbs and their fueling and all that I did. I have noticed that. And of course with them on the bike, their stomach isn't, you know, like Jocelyn, like running. So it made me think about, well, okay, so if they're getting this, say 150 carbs, it's like. And when I think about it. So how do you get those carbs in a gel usually, or in the water, you know, in your drink mix. And then I'm like, well, I wonder what the weight of those 150 gel compared to this? Because in an ultra run, you can't have a bunch of weight in your stomach because then it's like your stomach is full of whatever, whether it's gel or fluid, it's probably going to be different. But that weight pulling on like the attachments of your actual stomach has to make an impact on. So I'm always thinking about, well, what's the consistency of these carbs and these calories you're getting in because that's got to make a difference, right? it was all fluid. That would be way too much weight. It was all gel. Can your stomach digest that? So I'm always like, I wonder how they're figuring out the mix to that. And a bike is different from a run. So who's figuring it out like that's just crazy to think about. And what's your thoughts on that? Are you considering all that too? Yeah, yeah. And I think that's probably where to, to the degree that I guess when, when people are doing these like gut tests or these. This gut training stuff, they're trying to maybe push back how when that sensation occurs. So if you take someone like me who has been low carb for so long. Like I might start getting that sensation at like 60 70g of carbohydrate, whereas like, you know, maybe David originally was getting it around there, but then like decided, okay, I'm going to just like put in a lot of effort to be like taking in a liter of fluid with 150g in it in one shot and then go and run and just kept doing that to the degree where, like he sort of normalized that, that experience to some degree or pushed it back further. So he's not getting it until he hits stuff beyond that. So yeah, I mean, but there are a lot of moving parts there. So I do think you're gonna probably see some variance to some degree too. And I think we actually see this more with the from the data we have from like the women, where there's maybe a little bit of a wider range of, like where the top women are fitting in terms of the, the low end and the high end and still arriving, kind of in that podium type position. But yeah, I think there's just a lot of guessing at this point and a lot of, a lot of, end of end ones or case study type things where people are doing things and showing their results. And then we're like, okay, well, they did it. So you can clearly and and that's where I think David's interesting too is like before him, I think no one was thinking about 150g because they were thinking exactly the way you were, where it's like, that's just going to create a digestive issue in almost all cases, so don't even bother attempting it. And then he showed that we could tolerate it. So then the next question is like, okay, if you can tolerate it, is there a benefit to doing it? And as long as he keeps crushing races, it's going to be hard to argue against it. So well. So yeah, you kind of have to have that. Yeah. I was curious about your thoughts on this too. How come? Why does he dominate Leadville so much? And then like he's winning. Like I can't remember what the 50 K was, but he had to drop I think something like his ankle and then Western. But at Leadville he seems like. Best ever. Do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that is interesting. I mean, like, because he didn't mention he's even going to Leadville. And then he performed, but he had this huge build up for what it's like. Is it too much pressure on him or what? Yeah. I mean I think like going into Western states, he definitely brought an insane amount of pressure. Like guys like Caleb were probably just like, this is awesome. Because like, he was sucking up a ton of attention. And they could kind of just slip in there and just do their thing. I mean, even someone like Kilian was probably a little thankful for that because he's gonna suck in a ton of attention no matter what just because he's Kilian. But there's only so much bandwidth. People have to talk. I mean, it's a really large bandwidth, to be fair, but there's a limit somewhere. So if someone comes in and sucks up a lot of the, the, the, the interest around it, then maybe you get a little bit of a quieter approach. I think I think that's probably what it was for the most part, because if you just zoom out and look at it, he's sort of committed to racing and his new strategies and things like that. He's been pretty. He's been pretty good, like in terms of consistency. Like because I think if you take any of these top guys and look at the number of races that David's done and then what they've done, they've probably got some duds in there too. so to a degree that he's flopped any more than anyone else is, is probably not necessarily true. But I do wish he kind of would have maybe gone into Western states a little quieter and then saw what he could do, because I think that course actually does match up well for him. He's got the tools for it. So he's in Javelina. So presumably he's going to try to race back in and then take another swing at it. But yeah. Yeah, he's certainly got Leadville. He's got to be thinking about his sub 15 hours on the table now that he's 12 minutes away from it. If he could, if he wants to go back again I don't know, like how much interest he has and kind of becoming a Leadville repeat runner. But. Yeah. Yeah. So but yeah, I mean there's, there's, I guess there's maybe some speculation in terms of just how sustainable an approach like that is in the long term. Is it something where you can just rip for 3 or 4 years and then all of a sudden, like you start having problems with it and all of a sudden now this like this real secret weapon, so to speak, that you had is no longer available to you. And then what does that do? and that's where I think we get into a little bit of deep waters with any of these kinds of things that go well above, what we know is what's the long term ramification? I heard about that all the time on low carbs. Like, what's the long term ramification? So I can appreciate it. I've heard about that from just running in general. It's like, oh, you keep up all this running. You won't be able to walk by the time you're 40, right? I mean, so yeah, everybody's like looking for reasons to not run and not push hard. I think, for the long term stuff. But I do want to say like, I do respect David going, you know, taking a big shot. And the problem is with when you're so vocal, you are going to get a lot of pushback if that doesn't go well. I mean, yeah, he saw the other side from Leadville. You know, he got, I think ultra run performance of the year, something like that. You know, a lot of flowers from this last performance and, you know, like I can't. I was on the course the same day that he was. And I have no idea how fast he can run so fast. He's like, he's a complete machine. an amazing talent. but yeah, when you are very vocal that fall is going to hurt, it's going to because you're going to hear about it from a lot of people. And that's just the way it goes. But, you know, I think it's weird because sprinters like, if you look at Noah Lyles, they talk all sorts of shit and it's just over nine seconds. So they're not dealing with, you know, our minds are so powerful out there over the course of a hundred miles. And like your body's reacting to this and that. So I'd like that David went into it like Noah Lyles going into his 100. Or he talks about Jordan all the time calling the shot or things like that. But yeah, you know I think you know, that did hurt. I'm glad he bounced back and just seems like in a great place right now. Yeah. Because I do respect taking a shot for sure. And, it was cool. But yeah, I mean, he's a beast. He's a beast. There's no doubt about it. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be fun to see what he does in the coming years, because I think he's got some, some big goals, probably to maybe remedy some of the experience. I think maybe there won't be a YouTube series in Western states next year, but we'll see if he does. I mean, could you imagine that if he's just doubled down on it, it's just like, you know what, let's try this one more time and let's build it up again. I say, do it. I say do it. Go big in shit. What do you think's going to happen at UTM coming up? Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah. It just seems like this year it's maybe I felt like maybe the last couple of years were a little more exciting going in because it was, you know, you kind of had, like, the gym coming off a win and Zach Miller kind of chomping at his heels there. and this year, I think, like the men's field, maybe I don't want to be disrespectful to them. It's absolutely loaded. But like the the, the storylines that drew me in the last couple of years, I think aren't necessarily there, though I'm actually probably the most interested in Courtney this year at Utmb because I think, like, she's probably got a little bit of a better ramp up compared to her last time when she was doing like a little bit more racing. so I'm really interested to see how well she'll do there. That's my kind of, like, focal point, I guess. Yeah. I know. Yeah. I like it. I think it's the last time. Was it? The last time was when she won all three. Was that because she didn't run? Yeah. Western hard rock and then Utmb. And I think she's been pretty open about it. Like, YouTube was a bit of a grind for her and she was a little bit on fumes at that point. But, I remember after that year, Nicole and I were out at Mount Fuji, and she was racing that year, and she just absolutely crushed that course. I think that was maybe one of the more underrated performances that the sport has produced because, I mean, it's Courtney. So it got a lot of attention. Mount Fuji has gotten enough attention over the years where it's not just like this, this unknown event, but I mean, she said that that course is, I think, way more challenging than most people in the States anyway. Think. And she was basically competing with the top men the whole time there. She got second overall. And the guys she beat, they weren't like, you know, it wasn't like, oh, there's nobody there on the men's side. And she just went in and and grabbed a grabbed a second overall. It was like, these are world class mountain runners that she was pushing with. And yeah. So I think like I think there's like some when she's got like a little bit of space between an event and or like a really hard project or something like that, I think like. I just really want to see, like, see what that produce is. And I think it's probably going to be something worth watching this year. I'm yeah, I hope I think she's going to crush it. I was like, you know, we went on a bike ride after Leadville. she never says anything, but I'm always like, I was going to ask you about that. Like, what kind of inside info do you have? She never says, but I just talk out my ass the whole time. So I'm like, because. Because I was like I said, you know what? I said? You know what I'm irritated about? I said, I saw like, commentary saying, like, Katie is like she's like pushing the envelope on what women are capable of and this and that. And I mean, I don't know, Katie, she's awesome. I think she's a badass also. But I'm like, Courtney is still running. What are we talking about? We're like, ready to say Katie's next big thing. I go, you got the goat still fricking doing it. Let's just settle down, okay? Because I think I saw something like, see, I get worked up. It's like, if Katie had won these races and I'm like, what are you talking about? Courtney won all those in the same year. Like, yeah, win those in her career. But let's not just settle down. We got we got the goat still performing, still making history. And like with Courtney, like when she shows up. Here's what's crazy for her to win. Isn't it enough she's got to, like, break records. Make history. The pressure to perform. And then also was like, you know, you talk about like competing against the men and second overall, you know, she she's a competitor. I mean, she would love to win overall. And I'm like and she can I, I love thinking about how like what her ceiling is because yes, she's 40. She's not done I mean I think she's, she's I don't know, I think she's got a lot in her. And so I'm like, let's just not crown the next goat. Yeah. We got, we got she's still out there running. So yeah, I'm like her number one cheerleader. I get, I get, protective, I guess. But I'm excited for YouTube. And I love Katie, too. I don't know her at all, but. Amazing athlete, amazing performances. but settle down. Don't get ahead of ourselves here. It is kind of cool that there is, like, at least, we're starting to get a little a little bit of a gap close, maybe between the top end of the women's sport. With that respect. I mean, fun to see those two on a starting line together in the future. See who, see who wins. Oh, I know, I well, they did race Western, right? Not too long ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that would have been, I guess, a year and a half ago where. Yeah, we're. Yeah, that's an interesting topic too, because it's like Courtney goes and just mind blowing performance 1529 at West. Well, she's six all over all at Western states in this point in time where like top ten at western states on the men's side is like considered, like a top tier performance and sought after by pretty much every trail, 100 mile runner out there. And she's well into that. Yeah. And and Katie was a good bit behind. I mean, Katie still ran a phenomenal time that year too. But when Katie came back the next year and then ran, was it 1546? Yeah. It was like that was just close enough to I think like after Courtney ran 15, 29, I was just like. Yeah. I mean, do we see anyone coming within even 30, 45 minutes of that anytime soon other than her? And then Katie came close enough to it, where I think that kind of was like in a hundred mile language, 16 minutes feels like, oh, you know, that's just one mistake by Courtney, or that's just Katie getting slightly better or making one less mistake, maybe. but yeah, I mean, it's a it's an interesting time to see, but yeah, who knows where they'll show up together at some point. I, I would, I would hope certainly before Courtney gets to I want to say two weeks. I think 40 is actually a pretty decent spot for 100 miles. Yeah. I think she's got some big ones left in her. If she stays, stays interested in it, which it seems like she's she is. So, we we just benefit watching at the end of the day. Yeah, I mean, I that's a story like, you talk about storylines. I mean, I think I have watched a few Tom Evans clips because he's like goes crazy on the prep for sure. yeah. So I've watched he's dialed. Yeah. But the women are always I don't know why. Oh, well, maybe it's just for me, but the women seems like. Like there's more storylines on that side. Maybe it's just from Courtney, but now, Katie, she did that Golden Trail World Series. I think she got third in, like, it's some downhill fast race, which I was like, okay, that's that's different. And that's pretty, pretty damn good. So yeah, when we think about the head to head stuff, it's, it's cool to think about, yeah. Where they're at. I mean, I know, like, Katie's, like, course record or hard rock got attention. And to me again, being on Courtney side on on everything, I'm like, well, when you know what the mark is you're trying to beat, it's easier to go after, right when you're just sure. I think when Courtney said it, she, you know, she knew she's going to get it. It's like you don't push quite the same. Or maybe she does, I don't know, I, I wouldn't, but yeah. So anyway, I love just the storylines. I love just thinking about the head to head and the, you know, UFC does this all the time. Like the dream match matchups, right? Yeah. We need I'd love to see Courtney and Katie go out after it again head to head. But, in the meantime, we just talk about it. Yeah. Maybe we need more, like pre-race hype. Stuff like that. Where I have a I have a conversation with Jeff Meyer about this, where it's like, how do we or how do you kind of add a little bit more to the media coverage because it's like the sport's grown, the media has grown a lot, but it's kind of a lot of it's grown in one direction. Yeah. just kind of the more formal like. Yeah. How is the training? How is this going? Like, you know, what are you going to do differently this year? And then the post race recap stuff versus like, yeah, getting like, getting some more like UFC style, like stare downs and things like that. Some trash talk going. And no, I liked it. I like to talk a little shit. It's like, so you got the the Dylan Bowman who's like, always positive, always the professional, always like, you know, that's how you want to conduct yourselves. And then you got me who like, I just want to talk things like, you know, I just like to. I like to kind of the old Jeff Meyer kind of does this. He's got hot takes on stuff. Yeah. He's the one that came up with the Taylor Swift of ultrarunning, which was funny, right? But then, like Next Aid Station podcast, it's another like a couple guys just talk ultrarunning and they'll talk shit. I'm like, that's what we need. We need it all. We need the the formal. Yeah. Like everybody's a winner. Great job. You're amazing. Everyone's amazing. And then we need we need the shit talkers I like it, I like it all. Yeah, yeah. The other idea Jeff had that I thought was hilarious was he? He said, like, we should take like some of these ultra, top tier ultra runners and pair them up with like an influencer and have them like, do TikTok dances or have the influencer teach them a TikTok. Yeah, that's so it's like, yeah, we gotta find the most awkward ones out there and then pair them up with like the most, like eccentric, like over-the-top influencer and just record a video of them trying to, like, collaborate together. That'd be funny. I mean, I think, I think Andy Glaze is made for that one right there. Yeah. He's going on. Yeah, he might be the combo. Yeah, I love it. It's, you know, that that's another fun discussion is and I think you've talked about this before to the influencer versus I don't know who you had on maybe Matt Johnson, but, yeah, I think Matt versus the pros and I, I do I do, sympathize with the pros because it is so hard to, for people to care. You know, it's like when we do this weird thing about running hundreds or 200 hundreds of miles in the mountains to make people care about it is hard. Even if you're the best in the world. You know, like, you see Olympic runners all the time who have a small following. They're the best. I mean, they're Olympians. Whereas then you see, like these girls who have these run clubs, I mean, Austin has, you know, a bunch of run clubs and these people who their performances are like. I mean, I think an elite would say average or maybe less than average, but they got these huge running followings. So I, I do sympathize with the elites on that one too, because I don't think nobody has to work as hard as, like an endurance runner to be good at what they do. And then, yeah, somebody who's, you know, not even in your level and they have, you know, hundreds of thousands of followers, it would be kind of frustrating I bet. Yeah I mean especially like you get like a yeah I think about this a lot because like when I kind of stepped away from teaching and decided to like try to build a career within running, I was like very unconvinced I was going to be able to do that by just producing results as a way to like pay the bills. And at the time, that was definitely not something I probably should have bet on. anyway, so it was like, well, what else do I have to do to make this work? And that's like, you know, like coaching, podcasting, social media stuff. So to some degree, it's like I, I kind of grew into, like those outlets as well along the way. That's made it sustainable for me. But if you're the if you're a type of personality where you just kind of want to grind and train and be quiet and you're a little bit more introverted, which is not a small percentage of endurance athletes. That is tough because now you are in that world of like, alright, if I get injured or if I am not performing the way I need to, every race, like everything, is kind of tied to that. And I always think about if I were running a big brand, you know, all these big brands now they've got their athletes and they've got their influencers and they, they kind of have them in different camps. I don't know why they don't merge those more where it's like, all right, let's use the tools that the influencer has and have some sort of collaboration with the athlete to help the athlete, like, kind of get that, like social exposure and maybe build up their channel. That's going to be a little more fun and exciting for them, or give them some support around that so they don't feel like they're sacrificing what they really need to be doing in order to do it. Versus, and to some degree, I think that their brands are like they're having their athletes do photo shoots. They're doing training camps and getting a bunch of content and things like that. But, yeah, I think I agree with you there. It's like, it'd be nice if the sport was a little more, had a little more like finances in the like. This result is actually worth this much. And you can sustain yourself by doing that. Maybe it would be a good spot to get to for sure. Yeah. Yeah, because social media is its own world, for sure. And like, you, like you kind of alluded to is like endurance runners are so used to just training by themselves, being by themselves, thinking about stuff by themselves. It's really hard to, to verbally like to make a video about something that, I don't know, it just goes to guess, like what? Why endurance runners get good is because they can grind by themselves and like that. That doesn't make sense. I don't know, just for content. It's just different. yeah. I mean, it's just. Yeah, it's what I like, you know, when I get these athletes in here and we do the lift, run, shoot, I, I think people have liked seeing different sides of the athlete. Well, and politicians have taken advantage of it too, because people look at politicians and, like, this whole weird way. But when you see that they're actually human, you're like, oh, okay, that's different. Well, same thing with athletes, because we see the athletes just perform all the time, and you see these little snippets at a track meet or an aid station, this and that. But you don't really know too much about podcasts of help for sure. But, showing them in a different light can help grow, grow the brand for sure. And it's like, talk about these big companies. They do like it's easy for them to make decisions based on social media following, because it's just like a ready made market. It's like, oh, these people already reached that. We'd have to build up the story with this athlete, with this, you know, elite athlete, whereas this person already has this story and this following and people care about. So let's just throw some shoes on them and, you know, see where it goes. Yeah. It's super easy. Yeah. For a big company it is best for the sport. Probably not. It's definitely not best for the athlete. So yeah, I, I do agree with you that these big companies should, they just have to work a little harder in helping tell the story of these elites because they are cool. Interesting. I watch the Golden Trail series all the time. And like, there's these, like some of these girls or these guys that are running, I want to know more about them. And they're kind of telling those stories. They're doing a pretty good job. I think that Solomon is doing a good job on that. Yeah, yeah, they do a really nice job with that. Yeah, I think that's a good model that could be applied in. But yeah, I mean I think you hit it on the head. I mean like with your podcast, like when you had Cole Hocker on when and you know, the different athletes and stuff like that. It's like I got so excited when I saw that one pop up, because it's like I know him as an athlete. I've seen a little bit of stuff online about who he is as a person. But you know, when you sit down and talk for over an hour, you're going to learn something that you didn't know and kind of get into his head a little bit more in terms of like, how does this guy actually operate? yeah. So it's like, it's really I think that's a. making those connections I think is great. And Connor. Connor means two. That was another awesome thing. Connor Mass was. He's the nicest kid I've ever met, I think. But, yeah, just hearing because I, you know, Clayton had that series, I think like the build up for their marathon or I think the US trials maybe. But, it's hard to find. I didn't know much about Connor. And then he comes out here, and I watch him over at PRI and run the 10,000. And then we sat here and I'm like, God, what a freaking great guy. I want everybody to know what a badass this guy is. You know, he's 71 seconds from the bronze, I think, in the Olympics, in the Olympics. And, you know, just have these big dreams. And it's just. I just love shining a light on that. you did mention coal, too, which made me think of your biking, because Cole, he goes hard on the bike, you know? So I'm sure you've been looking at that for your training, right? Yeah. because it's our way to get way more volume but not beat up your body, essentially. Is that. Yep. Has he been kind of like this? Like I helped you along that way. Yeah, he was definitely one of the. I backed myself in a corner to some degree when I got injured, I really didn't have another option. So I think once I had that scenario, I was thankful the timing was good in the sense that I was aware that a lot of these pro athletes were starting to do more stuff like that. So I had already been kind of thinking about that as a potential input. So then once I had no choice, then I was like, okay, well, no better time than now. And then like, you know, the other nice thing about sitting on a stationary bike is you can just binge YouTube videos and watch stuff and learn about what these guys are doing. So yeah, you kind of start that process too. And yeah, yeah, you see someone like that who obviously likes he's performing at the highest level you possibly can, but especially with how competitive the 1500 is right now, to be able to have a gold medal in this era is just insane. So yeah, he's doing something right and you can always learn from those people. So yeah, absolutely. He was one of the big ones for that. What about. Yeah. And. Oh go ahead. I was going to say, like, I was just going to ask you what you think romance is going to do in Chicago. Oh, oh, I think he's going to crush it. Yeah, I think he's. Yeah, yeah. Like the American record, I think so. I think he's like, he's in a perfect position and I think like he's got I don't know I didn't know all about his, you know, his mission and all that he learned like on that mission and kind of how that I think that that was a you know, I asked him I said, do you think you benefited because as athletes, you know, it's all about everybody's pouring into like how you perform. Whereas he went on his mission and then it was nothing about that. And I just think that that helped him grow, probably. And it adds another layer to who you are. And I think that when times get tough, like when you're pushing at this elite level to, you know, do this performance that nobody's ever done in America, essentially you need layers, you need others, you need to be able to tap into different, different things. It's not always about just how you can perform as an athlete. It's about what makes you who you are. And I think that he really grew from that, and I think he's just primed to do something very special. But yeah, I mean, it's just interesting when you think about all the training and then you think about, well, maybe something like taking that two years off and just growing as a man, maybe that's as valuable as, you know, double threshold, you know, for. Right. Yeah. You know what I mean for sure. Yeah. And I mean, there's always going to be that whole idea behind, like how obsessed can you get with one thing before it becomes its own problem for you? If something goes wrong where, like, you know, maybe he gets an injury and then he's like, well, I've just invested literally every waking minute into this as my identity versus I'm sure he has other views of who he is as a person and what his value is. And you know, where he extracts interests and things like that from those experiences that he can lean on in any of those times, too. And it's just like, yeah, I think that's probably an underrated thing in terms of how we view stuff. And I always find it interesting when you get like a professional athlete who has some sort of career alongside it and they're still performing at a really high level because it's like they have this like another thing that is a stressor. It is taking away from their goal. But it's also a nice distraction, probably to kind of make them not over obsess at times or give them an outlet when they need it and not feel like they're failing entirely or something like that. Yeah. You know, you know, who I think has done a really good job at that is Courtney, who, you know, I've asked her like about what? About VO2 Max. What about, like, all this testing. What about. And she's just like. I don't care. Don't care. Don't care about any of that. And she just loves to run the mountains. So she loves big adventures, fun days in the mountains and competing. And it's like, I don't, it doesn't seem like from the outside, obsessed about any of it, just maybe obsessed about competing and just competing with herself, not about these other names and that's really hard to do. But the way she's been able to do it and kind of mastered it feels like from the outside is, man, that's got to be I, I don't, I don't know if people I think people like, they like the measurables. They like obsessing about these different measurable things like we've talked about, but that, that, that positive mental approach or like a healthy mental approach like that she has probably is just as important or maybe more, you know, when you talk about probably why she's still doing it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just I think that's pretty cool too, to think about. Yeah. That's the. It's funny when you see those examples too. I had Megan Eckert on the podcast a while back because she just broke the women's six day world record, and ran 603 miles in six days. This is insane. And she was kind of the same way. I was just like, I wanted to dive into her training approach and things like that. And she's like, oh, you know, I, I run to work and I run back, or I then I try to get in a few extra miles here on the weekends. I'm like, oh, that she lives in Santa Fe. So it's like, even though she's on this, like short loop flat thing for six days straight, she's like, sometimes I just like to get out on the trails and the mountains and and it's just like, you know, a lot of consistent, relatively high volume when she kind of like Courtney, when she feels good, she maybe pushes a little harder. When she doesn't, she kind of eases back. And then just that consistency and that kind of like headspace of not overthinking too much or like, like over exerting like some, some data point that may or may not actually move the needle for the individual. It just really works well for some of those people. And we see world class performances out of them. So it's it's hard to make an argument against it in the right context. Yeah. It's yeah. I mean, that the, the woman who won Leadville, she's an E.R. doctor, I think. Right. Yeah. Is it flowers? Yeah. And flower. Yeah. And flower. Yeah. I mean, it's, Yeah. So that distraction maybe. And and then the mountains are released and when the mountains are released. Yeah. Not something that you're obsessed about every second. That's when you. That's when you grow. Fly. Essentially, it feels like. But who the hell am I? I do say. Right. I got, like, my two favorite people coming up, and I want to hear yours. But I love, Max Jolliffe, obviously, you know, King of Moab, and. Well, I just was watching he's over at YouTube and he did this clip, I think, with Finn Larson on single track. But, they're talking about how he's still got his full time job and, like, what could he do if he doesn't have to be at the office Monday through Friday where his long runs or just the weekends? So I'm excited for Max to see because he's had some amazing performances, but I think he's close to going full time with as an athlete. That's exciting. And then also, I love Tara Dower. She seems like such a badass and I think she just set that field up. It was on the AT, I think maybe in Vermont, but those two right now are my favorites. I just love following the sport, but who's your favorite right now? Yeah. I'm really curious about what Charlie Lawrence ends up doing. because he's kind of, like, dabbling in the like, I want to kind of stay in the marathon type distance world, but also attack some of these kinds of shorter but still plenty long ultras like 50 mile and 100 K and things like that. And he's got this big goal of breaking six hours at like a, an official event versus a like, like a, like a time trial or not a time trial, but like a, you know, a project like with Adidas just did. So I'm there and he's just so fast and hard working. I just think, like, it'd be fun to see him pop one off and, and my, my selfish nature is like, okay, I want to see him try to take a swing at a big, fast hundred mile at some point, too, because he's interested enough in the flat stuff that I think he put in the right work to really optimize for that sort of a setting, which would be kind of fun. maybe see if there's someone on the trail side that's kind of looking exciting. Try to think of who's new, but has done some stuff that I think has a really big upside still. Dan. Ben Green. Dan. Green. Is that. Ben. Green. Yeah. Yeah. Ben or Dan or what'd you say? Or Dan Green. I'm sorry. My bad. Dan Green. Yeah. Dan Green. Yeah, exactly. Because I was thinking of him , he seems like a badass. Yeah, yeah. He's fun. He's a fun guy to talk to. And I just, like, I like these people who are like that. And this is kind of how I think Courtney is to where it's just like, oh, well, maybe I'll just do, coca Dona and it's like, oh, we got the person who could, who you would think would just be like Western states, you and TV every year and just really maximize probably what her, you know, sponsors want her to do or what incentives are probably the greatest. But she's like, no, I think that one looks cool. I'm gonna try that one. Yeah. I think Dan kind of has that a little bit of a that in him to where he's not really afraid of any of this stuff and he really wants to try it. So it's like, yeah, maybe I'll do Coca Dona or maybe I'll do Western States and, you know, just really kind of mix it up with a variety of different stuff. So I think he'll be fun. And now that he's got more support, I think he'll have an opportunity to, to kind of take off a little bit more than he already has, I guess. Did you know, you mentioned support? So does that, does that kind of like funnel him into like those big events though, and kind of take away his ability to do whatever he wants, like when you're sponsored, are they pushing you to say, hey, we want to see you at YouTube. Coca-Cola is not really or Leadville is not really getting you the, the, the bump that we need. We need you to compete against the best in the world. Does that kind of take away that fluidity? Yeah, I mean, that's a good point. It could. Like in my experience there's a pretty wide range amongst the brands that are in the sport in terms of how much they want to kind of dictate that where some are like, oh, we signed you because we kind of like what you were doing. So just keep doing what you're doing, in which case you have a lot more autonomy in terms of that. And other brands are maybe a little more incentive based, or they do have their events they want you to do. And it's like you're signing a contract based on your race schedule. You're sitting down and you're making a proposal. This is what I'm going to do. And we're like, well, we'll pay you this much and give you this support, but that's what you're doing. And then you can maybe, I guess, to the degree that you can still kind of dictate it if you draw it up. But obviously like if, if Dan comes in and say, I'm doing Western states and UTM, that's probably going to be preferred versus him picking a couple other events and then to some degree, like how much of that is incentivizing him to make a decision he wouldn't make otherwise because it's, you know, part of the part of the financial side of the equation. It's hard to know. So hopefully they let him, let him kind of do what he wants because I think it'd be fun to see him just kind of target the stuff he's interested in. What? What are you what are, like the top, top people making sponsorships? Do you think you never hear? I mean, I think we heard, yeah. Signed like a six figure deal, but what do you think the top people are getting? I mean, obviously, yeah, I think the range is really, really big. like in terms of just like where, where the entry points are and so where the top ones, I do think like these top runners are getting six figure contracts. you know, if you're winning western states or ending up on the podium even at Western states and, Utmb and those sort of things, you're, you're probably getting up into at least that number. And then, I mean, it gets it gets hard to know when you get to someone like say takes take Kilian for example, like Solomon probably couldn't pay him enough to the degree where he's like, well, I'm just going to start my own brand and then, you know, probably make way more money doing that than taking some, some contract from Solomon. and then you get into the world of just like, what do we like? What exactly is built into that contract where there's like a base, but then like, maybe if you this is really uncommon in ultrarunning, but I think we'll see more of it. And we're starting to see some of it, which is like signature product lines and things like that, where you actually get a percentage of the sales, where you know, it's someone like Courtney, right. Like Courtney will move a product and if her name's on it, she will move more of it. So like, like why a brand wouldn't put her name on something and give her a percentage of that sale. I mean, I don't, I don't know why you wouldn't. Actually, I think that would be a really good move on both sides. So yeah, I agree. You know, I was another thing. I was frustrated that she didn't have her name on a lot of stuff because she. She has been the transcendent star of ultra as like. That needs to be rewarded and acknowledged. And then that's how you elevate the sport also, because then you see these people like that gives them a goal, you know, at some point of and and then also if you're not doing that, that's why Kilian would start his own brand because that's a legacy. You know, if the brand isn't supporting you and creating this legacy for you when you've been, you know, the goat, the goat of what we do. then I guess you got to start your own. And that's the legacy. So, yeah, it's like I'm just always curious about these business dealings and how it works out. But yeah, if people are getting, you know, 100,000 a year to run the mounds because of the best in the world, that's awesome. They probably deserve more. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's probably still a very few people getting up to that. But there's definitely some precedent out there now for that. So but it's like you were saying, like the fact that, like, neither of us can be a very have a very clear outline is like, well, where's the missing link here? Is it an agent that kind of has that information from one brand to the next and can kind of push that because like, you know, there are agents in the sport, but there's it's not the standard. I would say, to any large degree. It hasn't been historically anyway. So you do kind of have this weird situation of like, what do I have to do to try to maximize? Do I have to like, bring another brand in to compete with this brand that I don't even really want to use their product? But if I don't, then I'm not going to be able to, you know, like, get what I'm actually worth because there are brands out there who will , they'll sit on whatever they offer you. And let's say you do something really cool and you're like, okay, well, I'm worth more than this now. But if they're like, well, what are you going to get elsewhere? And you don't have something else to bring to the table? They're like, well, this is what we're offering you. And you really then you have that or nothing, which is, you know, not not an optimal scenario either. So I think that's where I like the idea of an agent a little bit, because they're probably going to have a view of the landscape just from dealing with all the brands, and then they'll be able to kind of tell you this is where you're worth based on the market and drive that up, because now you're bringing more competition in, on the back side with their work and stuff like that. So I think that's probably the next stage is we'll probably start seeing a lot more athletes working with agents or managers that have that information. Yeah. It's, you know, the athletes have a huge advantage if they have a good following. So a bit of company. I mean, if you look at an engagement on a company post, like a Solomon post, it's not going to be anything close to, like what, an engagement on a Courtney post. So if Courtney takes like her insights from Instagram for 30 days and maybe it's 30 million impressions that business, there's no way they can get 30 million impressions unless they're spending a lot of money to do it right. So the personality always has it. If they can maximize that. So then you get into the measurables. Like I remember I used to go and say, well, if I wrote this article, I did this post, I was on TV and this would reach many people. So I added all that up and it's like an impression per $1,000. That's what an agent should be doing. So it's like we can reach this much per $1,000. If we reach double that, I get double because I reach double the impressions and it's like it makes this formula which normally athletes don't want to mess with, but an agent should. And then the athlete has to decide, well, is that worth 10 or 15%. Are you going to get me? So what I've done is I've always been like my existing deals. I don't need you to bring me new stuff. You can get 15% and it's like that. I think that athletes have a hard time because you got into the sport because you love it. You do this for free. You did it for free for your whole life. And now it's like, well, but I have value, so don't I owe it to my work and my family to maximize that value? That's been the heart. That's a hard thing for most people, like maximizing your value. Yeah. Yeah. And knowing that too because it's like you said, it's like there's like a business component there where you know, unless you went to school for business and you kind of have some of that insight or you do the legwork to kind of learn it and things like that, which kind of gets us back to that, that the, the, the other topic with, with the influencers versus athletes, it's like there's like, well, how much are you getting pulled away from the, the thing that actually got you there in order to do that. And yeah, eventually you either have to bring in resources or kind of learn it yourself, I guess. Yeah. It's then that's like, you can do you can get roped into like an influencer or roped into more of the gimmick type stuff and not competing where that's where I, like Truett, have my son, he's still lining up and racing. Is he elite? Not quite yet, but he's putting himself out there and competing. So you can say like you can call him an influencer. And I'm just like, I don't know, he signed up for this race and he showed up and this is his time. Right. Right. So not really that's not the influencer style that's performing. But yeah. That's right. Yeah, it's a crazy time. It's fun though. Well, it's not true. It didn't do over 10,000 pull ups in 24 hours, which is a world class performance by all metrics. So it's like, yeah, it's like maybe he's dabbling in sports that are less specific to that, but it's not like he hasn't gone in and shown that he can compete with world class performances in some area. And I think to some degree that's kind of cool. It's like you, you get someone who's interested in just fitness and health, which I think is just a great message in general right now. being willing to say like, yeah, you know what? I had all this potential and pull ups. I built a huge kind of system around that. But I really want to try and see how good I can get at running. And maybe that means I'm not the best in the world at it, but I'm going to be the best I can be at it, and we're going to see how this goes. And people love following that too. I mean, there's just a little extra flair to it, like a guy who did 10,000 pull ups in 24 hours is trying to run 230 in the marathon. I think that's like just an eye catcher. So, yeah. And as far as brands are concerned, I'm sure they eat that stuff up. Yeah. I mean, he's very marketable. So that's been going, going well but and he hasn't turned himself into a coach yet so that's good. Yeah. Everybody's a coach. He's not giving out too much free advice. Yeah. Yeah. No it's it's good stuff but so so fun to talk about. Yeah, absolutely. Well, cam, I don't want to take up too much of your time, cause I know you got a big hunt trip coming up here and probably have plenty of prep to do to for that. But, I appreciate you coming on and sharing some of your insights. And, kind of like I said in the beginning, I appreciate you bringing in new people to the sport. I definitely have benefited greatly from the influx of people interested in what I'm up to, based on kind of your exposure to it. So, it's been fun chatting. Oh. Thank you. Yeah. And I want to. After hunt season, let's get you out here for a lift. Run, shoot, if you'd be interested. Yeah. No, I'd love it. Yeah, let's do it. It'll be fun. I need to, I need to see. See what I got with the bow. Yeah, we got the weight room right here, too, so we can do some bin. Well. All right. Yeah. What do you think I can do? How many reps do you think I can do for 135? I'd say. Have you lifted? I've done some bench pressing in my day. So do you. You weigh, like, probably 145. About 140. Man. well, normally, I don't know, like, could you do five? How about this when I come out and do it? If I do less than ten, then you can publicly shame me. Like, make a reel about how I'm a weak endurance guy and I need to get, like, a relative strength deficit, all that good stuff. If you let less than ten. Okay, I'll get more than ten. Okay. I don't think I'd do that because, like, you're such a badass runner, but that's a that's a fun threshold. So ten or more. Let's do it. Ten or less. And like, then I can say whatever I want. Perfect. Sounds good. Awesome. Before I let you go, where can where can people find you? I'm sure it's probably easy enough to Google, but, well, it's, Instagram. Facebook. got my website at Cameron haines.com, so. Cool. Awesome. I'll link all that stuff in the show notes too. So if people want to check that out or any of your books too. you know, both I'm sure will be awesome reads for anyone listening to the podcast. So we'll link all that stuff, the show notes. But yeah, I really appreciate your time.