Episode 448: Shoe Talk with Brady Holmer

Brady joined me to chat up some shoes we have been trying out the last couple of months. Shoes we covered include; Speedland RX:FPY, Tracksmith Eliot Racer, Puma Fast-R Nitro Elite III, New Balance 1080v14 & Rebel v4, ON Cloudsurfer II, Brooks Hyperion Max III & Launch 11. Shoe card specs for the models we discussed are available on Zach's IG account (@zachbitter)

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Timestamps:

Episode Transcript:

.Brady. Welcome back. Thanks, Zach. Good to be back. Yeah. It's gonna be fun to chat about some new shoes and some use cases. Maybe with them for sure. Yeah, it's been a while. I think, you know, since the last time we did our reviews, we've tested probably dozens of shoes between us. So I think it was, I think we're due to give the people some new shoes, some new stuff. Yeah, I think we got some fun ones, too, with some interesting characteristics. I was looking at just the list of stuff that you tested. We both tested, I tested, and two that kind of stood out that I think will be fun. the track Smith shoe, because I think there's probably less info out about that one, and it's kind of unique with that removable insert. And then I was thinking like, what else has kind of got that same sort of idea behind? And there's that speed and one that we were testing out a while ago actually at this point. But I don't think we talked about it. the RFP or what was that one again, what speed did we do? We did the RFP. Yeah, the road, the road one and they've got the removable plate, which is kind of an interesting design to be able to take that in and out and not have to commit to one or the other in the shoe. So, I didn't do any efficiency testing to see what the difference is between those. Although I did see Cam Haynes was in town, he was testing shoes with Dustin to try to figure out just what shoe he wanted to wear for, I think at the time it was the Boston Marathon, but then he got injured and didn't run it anyway. But he wanted to see her because she had just been released. He wanted to see how it attached it up compared to one of some of the top in the, in the market. And I think it was like. I think that one was maybe like just under 3% above the control. And then he also is using the Asics meta speed, I think was the other one he was considering using, and that one just has a lot of height. And I think that one tested like in the default for him or something like that. So he's like, all right, if you're going to eke every little bit of performance out at Boston, that's probably the shoe to wear for sure. But yeah, I'd be curious. You want to have a shoe you want to chat about first, or you could go with the speed line one first. I think that one that was probably considered one of my more surprising, like, oh, I really like this a lot. Yeah, because it's just a brand I hadn't heard of. But, yeah, we can go with that one first if you want. Cool. Yeah, yeah, that one is interesting because, like, they came into the shoe world through the trails. So they did a lot of stuff on the trails. And their kind of initial thing was, we're gonna make something really durable that you can get like two x the mileage out of it. but you pay a lot for it. There's shoes. I think they range between like three, $400 for a pair. so then there was kind of like dialogue I remember around like, well, that's awesome. I can get twice as many miles, but maybe I want a new pair sooner. So I kind of had like two groups. People were like, just give me the shoe that works. Hold up to anything that I really like and then have it last as long as possible. And then people are like, I want to get a new pair of shoes every month, and if this thing lasts twice as long, it's gonna cut into me. It depends kind of what you're looking for. Yeah. Some people like a little bit more variety. Yeah. People who are maybe just like a one trainer type of person, like, oh, yeah, I'll take this and just run it into the ground and then buy another pair. Yeah, yeah. But what I think the thing that stood out to me with their trail line and then this sort of carried over to the road line too, was it's just a really roomy shoe. And they have their lace system, it is great. You can kind of lock down the back half of the shoe really easily with, with the, what is it called, like the boa. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. System or whatever. Yeah. So if people have ever worn cycling shoes, some of them have it where you basically just twist it and it's kind of infinite, which is nice. It's like if you really tighten or loosen, those are not words, but, yeah, you can, you don't have to. Just like. Now you don't have to use laces, which is nice, but you can basically just turn it until it fits your foot and then dial it back to loosen it, which I really kind of enjoyed. Yeah. Yeah yeah. The bowl system, that's what I was failing to think of. But yeah. And I find that I took this shoe out for a few long runs and you know, it's Austin, so it's getting humid. And one thing I'm realizing, you do a long run in Austin. Part of picking the right shoe is which one is going to retain less of my sweat over the course of this run. So it doesn't feel like a brick on my foot by the end. And which one? Or how does that actually fit? How does your foot fit in it at that point too? So the nice thing about boa lacing is it is pretty easy to manipulate that. So if you want to switch it, you're not like untying and tying. You're just like loosening and tightening pretty easily. So that was kind of nice. It's a pretty stable shoe. But one thing we were chatting about before this that I find interesting too, and people ask about like, what super shoe? Or how should I find a super shoe if they're looking purely for performance? And I usually tell people to think about it like, here's a heuristic that can kind of get you in the right ballpark. One is, are they using premium foam? Is it plated? Did they get it up to 40mm, meaning that they were exhausted like that threshold that you can't cross before the shoe becomes illegal to just really maximize performance? And then how light did they get it? So when you start deviating from those is where you start losing efficiency. So when you can get like the 40 millimeter stack, a really light shoe, was a popular one. But now we have a lot of the supercritical foams that are starting to catch up, with, with, with the midsole efficiency and things like that. If you can get those three things dialed in, then you're probably like up in the top side of the performance market. If you want to just kind of narrow down the sea of options that are available now. So like this one, I would say they got the premium foam. They've got the 40mm stack. It's a pretty heavy shoe though I think it's 10.5oz. So when we look at just the top of the line performance we're getting down into the six ounce range. I think some have even dipped under six ounces now. So it's a little heavier, which usually means it's going to be more stable. But in terms of being the most efficient, fastest shoe on the market, you're probably going to struggle at 10.5oz. So my guess is people are going to love this thing for like a little bit faster than a normal trainer. Really stable, nice and roomy, especially if you like a foot shaped toe box type of design they've definitely got a wider toe box than most shoes are going to have. but maybe lose an efficiency point or two percentage point or two compared to the real fast loss out there. Yeah, I think, you know, if you're looking for a race day, maybe a super shoe or super trainer, maybe not what you're going to go for. Like you mentioned, just because of the weight. But most of the time when I used it was sort of on a long run where I might not be going incredibly slow, but I wanted to maybe like an uptempo kind of long run type of thing. And I took him for several tests on those, and it really performed well. I did it with and without the plate. Like you said, it has that removable plate, which I kind of enjoyed, you know, playing around with and it kind of makes it a 2 in 1 type of shoe, which. Yeah, which is nice, but, yeah. For long runs, like the stability. I totally agree with super comfortable and yeah, like up tempo long run is kind of where I found the best use case for that. I probably wouldn't run in it for a race just because there are so many other lighter available options, but sometimes you just want a little bit of a heavier not looking, always for the lightest shoe. I mean, I know some people sometimes do, but if it's a training run you're not always looking for, let's just get this as light as possible. Something you want, maybe a little bit heavier. If you're looking to recover a little bit more, just something a little bit more durable. Or if you're running on, like, the trails, this is kind of like a good trail shoe while not actually a trail, a trail shoe, but people who like it, the fit and feel is going to be similar to their trail models too. So if someone is looking for a trail shoe, they'll get that from theirs. The other thing I always think about too is like. You have that compromise between weight and stability a lot of times, and the race course and the distance is maybe going to drive how much of a compromise you're willing to take. So when you get into like ultramarathons, especially like 24 hour stuff or even on a track because you're turning a little tighter sometimes I think, like, okay, there's probably a crossover that ranges from one person to the next before, like, lighter isn't necessarily better because I'm losing stability. And then my pinch point is going to come. And whatever benefit I'd get from an extra, you know, a few grams off the shoe is going to be eaten up by my lack of efficiency or my lack of stability. So, like, you could even have something like the course might determine that to some degree. Is it like a straight line course or you're running straight where you can get away with a little less stability in your shoe versus one that's got a lot of turning on it or the length of the race. How long can your lower legs kind of tolerate the wobblyness of some of the shoes you can find on the market now? I think that's a consideration with a lot of the shoes. I know. When we did our first review, we talked about the Mizuno Wave Rebellion Pro, and it's just like right now you have to think about it, you have to take into consideration what kind of course you're running on. Yeah. In addition to, like, how good is this shoe? Because I would certainly never take that shoe on a track workout or something where I was turning multiple times. But if it was a point to point very few turns, yeah, I might use it. So it's kind of an additional variable sometimes that people need to think of. But yeah, with this one, with the, the speed land, it certainly was like it's very flat. I didn't find any. I don't know what the heel of the toe drop was, but I felt like it's just kind of like, roots you into the ground almost, in a way, is the best way that I can put it. It makes it feel just kind of really, it's like a very grounding ish related shoe, and I like that aspect of it. Yeah, I think that one is 33 on the forefoot and 40 on the heel. So kind of middle in terms of not as steep as you can get, but not perfectly flat either. I always think too like one thing I've noticed because I was wearing ultra for so long, my baseline was very heavily anchored in pancake flat. So it's like, what shoes am I noticing? The lift more and less on. And when you get a shoe with as wide of a footprint as the speed line is, I notice less of the drop. And I'm not sure if that's perception or just because I've got more space on the outer sides to create balance points that make it less obvious versus like we'll talk about the new, Puma faster area, three at some point here. That one is very narrow and very light. That one I noticed the drop in more, I think just because there's also some lateral instability there that is kind of feeding into maybe the perception of all of that a little bit. So yeah, I mean, it's funny how with shoes too, you kind of have this like I want to find the one that works for me, and then I want to find the one that kind of matches my comfort preferences too. And that's going to be the big individual side of it. Yeah, yeah. And I think this is something I talk about a lot with people too, with super shoes, it's. Yeah, you can find it. You can look at the data. Say, which one is the best for performance in these laboratory tests. But ultimately there's a huge comfort aspect with a lot of them because the shape in them is all different. And like sometimes you just put a shoe on and it's like, what's your visceral reaction to this? Is it, oh this is very comfortable or oh my gosh, like, no way this isn't going to work. So you have to balance. I think we may have talked about this. It's like, oh, if this shoe shows you that you're the most efficient in it, but you're not going to be comfortable in it for 26 miles, then you probably shouldn't wear that on race day. Take like a percentage hit point, hit in your efficiency for something that's going to be a lot more comfortable. Yeah. I can't remember if we talked about this on the other episode or not, but when I had Dustin on, he said, like we were talking about the kind of the marketing that the brands are using where they have like their five K, ten K shoe, their marathon shoe and all that stuff. And he said, whatever you're the most efficient in is going to be the shoe you want to race in if you can tolerate it. So like he was like, well, if you're more efficient in their marathon shoes than you are in their five K, ten K shoes, wear the marathon shoe for the five K 10-K. But if you're if you're more efficient in the five K ten K shoe than the marathon shoe, and you can't tolerate it for a full marathon. Well, you know, it doesn't matter at that point. Then you got to go with the one that's going to get you to the finish line. So yeah, probably I kind of had that experience with and I've only run one time in these, but the new, the vapor life force. So I ordered them and I had planned to run the Boston Marathon and them and I just did a quick training run, and I'm like, oh, this is great, but there's no way 26 miles like this isn't it's not really built for it. I just didn't feel it. So I decided not to go with it. And sure, I bet the efficiency test would have shown I was probably faster in that compared to maybe like the alpha fly, but maybe not over 26 miles. And so, it is interesting that the different companies are marketing the shoes for different distances, where I guess some were kind of built for that, but you don't really. I mean, you could use an A5K shoe for a marathon and vice versa. I'm not really sure whether that's just a marketing gimmick or actually kind of based on the data that they have. Yeah. I wonder, are they actually like getting in the lab and testing like employees to see, like, is this something that you can tolerate for and trying to at least get in the right ballpark for people or probably not. Yeah. Yeah, maybe. Let's jump into something a little more crazy. not that the speed limit isn't crazy. It's a pretty unique shoe, but the Puma. Faster. Nitro elite three. is one that I think really made a lot of noise in the running world because their launch around Boston was just their marketing was great. they had a lot of TV time because some of their athletes did well with it, and then they did their, what did they call it, something three. project with project three. Project three. Yeah, yeah. Where they were giving, I think it was like $3,000 to groups of people who were powered by X amount of time, three minutes or something like that. So great marketing behind it. And then like, the big question everyone asks is like, is it actually faster? So I was kind of like watching some of this stuff and you kind of get these early signs sometimes where it's like, okay, this elite athlete made a little bit of a jump forward. It's like Roy Linkletter ran a really great Boston Marathon. He kind of took a leap forward. So it's like, I'm sure Rory was actually in really good shape too, right? Of course, he might have been ready for an update regardless, but it makes you kind of think like, okay, maybe the shoe is a little closer to maybe got him upper center to efficiency. So then, Dustin actually put it through the testing protocol. And I think if I remember it, he said it was the first shoe he's tried that tested for him better than any of Nike's zoom foams. And he's usually between like four and 4.2% in those models. Consistently I think he was closer to five and a half in, in the faster or the faster. I still don't know exactly how you're supposed to say that. Like I don't either. It's just a little dash in between fast and hours. So I've heard it both ways, but yeah, that one makes more sense. But yeah. So either way, the. So I've tried that shoe. I don't think you've tried it yet. I haven't. You had the faster two but not the, not the three. Okay. Yeah. So I've done some of it. I've been careful with it because I've been rehabbing my Achilles. My Achilles is back to 100%, at least as far as I can tell. So I've been trying to play around with more shoes recently and more variety. But with this one I did, what I did was I would run in a pair of shoes that I knew I could tolerate, and then I'd finish and do an extra mile in the shoe just to kind of see what the difference was. So between the Boston Marathon and Dustin doing the testing, I was doing this and I would I was running, I did a ton of miles. We'll talk about this shoe to New Balance. 1080 V 14 the shoe. That shoe just was beautiful for my Achilles tendon. Like my Achilles tendon loved that shoe. So I just kind of leaned into it. Put a ton of miles in that thing. Almost all of them are in those early stages of bringing back the running. But it's one of the slowest shoes you're gonna find, too. So for sure, no, no bells and whistles with that one. Just kind of like, ah, this is it. Foam is comfortable but yeah yeah, yeah. It's a great shoe for the right purpose. And I needed it at the time. It was like If I'm running I'm running in that shoe. So it served its purpose for that. But when I would switch out of that one into Puma's update, I was like 15 20s per mile faster at the same effort, like I'd change into him. And immediately it was just like I'd have to look at the watch and be like, no way is it that much quicker. So granted, New Balance 1080 v 14 is going to be slower than the control shoe in testing, so I wouldn't expect to get like a 1520 second per mile improvement if I switched into this versus maybe like the neo zen or something like that or something closer to the control shoe. But it felt fast. It was, it's, it's kind of teeters on that edge of, is this stable enough to race in for longer periods of time? It's been stress tested by some of their marathoners. So clearly some people can, you know, I'm currently thinking about, can I do this for a hundred miles and like my, my guess is if I do a course that's kind of close to the Tunnel Hill hundred, which is basically just straight line running, I think I can maybe make it work for that on a track that might be a little bit of wear that I'd be on razor's edge, maybe from a stability standpoint. So I'd have to do some work and figure that one out a little bit more specifically. So my perception was like, this is probably the fastest shoe I've ever worn. It's also kind of it's not as unstable as maybe the Mizuno Wave Rebellion three, but it's probably a little less stable than like, the Evos and, probably, vapor vapor and alpha flies to probably, meta speed as well. but then. Yeah. So then Dustin's testing came through and he tested quite a bit higher in that than he did even, his highest performing shoes. So at least, in the lab, it's showing to be one of the fastest shoes on the market, at least for him. I'd be curious if, like other athletes, and when other people test it, too, if they get a similar experience from that. Yeah. I mean, I think Puma had some of their own data. Maybe it was internal, but they were, I think, similar. It was maybe a couple percent faster than the Alpha Flight or something like that. But you've tested the faster two though too, right? And are they kind of similar? I mean, where do you find this one to be more unstable? It's faster, but maybe less stable. Yeah. They're very similar in terms of what they look like. They do look pretty similar. The difference I would say is it feels lighter. it feels maybe a little less stable and a little softer. So I feel like it's soft, I don't mean you're losing. Like, these are the super premium foams, so, like, it pops off the ground. But, like, when I kind of, like, rock back and forth a little bit, I feel like I can kind of, like, push down a little bit easier into that foam. so perception wise, I feel like it was. It's definitely an update to the prior version. It feels a little more upper. You'll notice the upper is really thin. It's like razor thin. There's hardly anything there. So if we're looking at super shoe durability, this one's probably going to lean. This is like your this is like your, formula one car of the racing world where I don't think there's going to be a ton of use cases for it outside of running really fast. and the big question for most people is probably going to be, how long can I tolerate this shoe, and if you can get it to a marathon, it's probably going to be fast for you relative to what else is on the market. So, really interesting to see what they've kind of done with that. Yeah, I'm excited to test it because I have run faster too. I liked it a lot. and I think I'll do some training in the faster three and maybe pull it out for Kim. Yeah. This winter. I mean, I think that would be a perfect test case for it if it turns out to be a good shoe. I was running by during Boston. You know, I was running with several people with the Puma project, three guys. So I was just, like, all around me. I had all these Puma shoes, and I'm like, oh, these are the. Yeah, the guys tested the prototypes, but, yeah, I mean, it seems like an impressive shoe. I haven't put it on yet, but I have a pair outside that you, that you just gave me. So, I'm really excited. We'll talk about that one again on the next one, just to get a thorough assessment. Yeah. And I would, I would love to get in the lab though with Dustin I might try to schedule something to test say like that against the alpha fly paper fly for maybe some of the other, maybe slap on the wave rebellion. Yeah. Just just to see. Yeah. Yeah, that'd be interesting. So I gotta try to get in there and see if it would validate it. But based on what I experienced with the faster two that was, it ended up being one of my favorite shoes because I did find that it was just like it pops off the ground, even more so compared to some of the other super shoes out there. So, I had one question to ask you. This is like a divergence, but. When are you thinking about an ultra? So you were talking about. I don't know if I could wear these for 100 miles, maybe, depending on the course. If it was a flat course, you could wear it. Have you ever considered the idea of wearing multiple different shoes during an ultra race? So say, oh, I'm gonna wear, you know, I don't know, what's your go to racing shoe is but my stable shoe for 80 miles. And then at the next aid station, I'm going to do a real quick transition. Put on these Pumas, finish the last 20 miles in it. Yeah I've thought about this. And it's an option on the table for sure because I was thinking about that. I was thinking about what way to do it. Like would I want to start in the more efficient one and just see how long I can tolerate? Because really, the big question is like, I won't do a training run long enough to probably get to the I mean, I guess I could get to a breaking point if I did like a 30 mile training run. And I can tell already at the end of 30 miles I'm losing the value out of this shoe. Then I kind of start having I can. I can probably guess about how long I'll be able to make it work, but say, say it feels fine through 30 and there's no sign of like, degradation. That would make me want to switch to a different shoe. Then I'm like, okay, on race day, I'm just going to see how long I can tolerate this, but have a backup to throw on if I need it. So it's like I might get 100 out of it. Maybe I'll get eight out of it, maybe I get 60 out of it and just try to really maximize the time spent in it. Or do I kind of do the way you said, where you start out with something that's maybe a little more stable and then wait like, okay, now I got 30 miles to go. I've done a few 30 mile long runs in that shoe. I think I can make it work for the rest of this race and then get into something that, perceptually and performance wise, probably feels better on your foot from a turnover standpoint, because I also do hesitate to go from something that feels faster to something that feels slower, because you're dealing with just the psychological aspect of it. When you're fatigued, putting on something heavy, you're just like, oh man, yeah. But then on the other hand, if you put on something with maybe a little bit more support, true, after 80 miles, that might be good. So the other ordering is kind of interesting to think about. Yeah, that's a good point because yeah, even if it's heavier and maybe a little less pop off of it, if you feel like you regain that stability, that might give you this perception of feeling better, if that's what the breaking point had been. So yeah, but yeah, I've thought about that. And, there's some precedent there. I think, when, when Sorokin. Broke my world record. Not his fastest time, but the first time he went under it. I want to say, if I remember right, he was on a track. I think he was wearing a pair of Hokies. I don't remember which model for part of the race. And then he switched into alpha flies at some point and was like, oh, these are way faster. Yeah. So like he actually did that. Not on purpose I don't think. But he did it and it worked well for him. and from there on I think he's done all now. Now he's running with Adidas. So he's using I'm sure of one of the Evo models. But, a lot of his records he did were I think all of his records were done in alpha flies. So, yeah. So I mean, there's some precedent there from switching and there's switching to I think I want to say when Camille Heron ran her furthest 24 hour, she rotated through four pairs of alpha flies or something like that. same shoe. So you're not getting a tremendous difference outside of, like, I'm not sure what the argument there was. If it was like the shoe was breaking down and they needed a fresh pair because in 24 hours and 170 miles is a long way. Yeah. For sure. I mean, if you think about the lifespan of a shoe, if, I mean, I pretty much retire an alpha fly from racing at like 150 miles. So in that case, you're just like, you don't want ultimate efficiency there. Yeah. You change alpha flies or just maybe like the perception or just putting something different on it kind of kind of makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. That actually reminds me. Another question I wanted to ask you is Dustin told me with his alpha flies, he maintained the same efficiency up to 400 miles in a pair. So I was curious if that was something that if you're noticing something that is degrading on the shoe, that you want to replace it sooner than that. I think they probably would last longer than my 150 standard. So admittedly I don't have data to support that. But I almost go by the visual inspection. Like if I just hold a 200 mile alpha fly up next to a fresh one, you can just see that foams are compressed. So to me it kind of just makes sense. Like, oh, this is kind of a shot. but then I just retired. Motor racing or training. Sure. So it becomes a long run shoe. It becomes a workout shoe. So, admittedly, I could probably get it. To. I wouldn't go much past 250, I think. Like, but I mean, if Dustin is seeing the same efficiency, then why not? I guess my argument might be, oh well, what's his what's he doing it over. Like what? time span or time frame like versus if I'm at 150 and then I'm going to run a marathon in it. You know, I might just want a new pair if you use testing in the lab, but yeah, I mean I might show something similar. So I'm not sure if data is backed up. It's just kind of like what I think seems right. Yeah. I'm sure Nike doesn't mind that either. If buying a new pair of shoes ever gets like what, three races out of it and then maybe four, 4 or 5. But yeah, I have to ask him about that because yeah, he could just be doing like five miles at a time and there's like a week between each time. And yeah. So it's getting a little more gentle use versus hammer out long runs in it and things like that. But there's also something about getting on a starting line with a fresh pair of shoes for sure. For sure. There truly is. I think Boston when I got a new pair of Alpha Y's. So when I was lining up, they had like my shakeout run miles on them. And that was that. Which is crazy with the shoes these days. You don't need to break them in. You just mean you. I wouldn't recommend doing a shakeout run or something, but you could run 'em straight out of the box, especially if it's something you've run in before. So it's kind of nice to have that option. I think a lot of people in Boston did that with the Pumas, because they had their pop up shop for like the day before the race. They're like, oh, I'll take those. I'm gonna race them tomorrow. Somebody even asked me about it. He goes, oh, would you recommend that? I said, I don't know what's okay, what's the harm? Yeah, I mean, I guess you could get a really bad blister and drop out, but I think you ended up setting a PR, so work for him. Yeah. Roll the dice somewhere. Yeah, exactly. Awesome. The other thing, I'll just share some data on that. That shoe is for people interested in this one's 40mm in the heels. So they definitely got up to that regulatory point. 32 in the fourth front, four foot weight is six ounces for their men. I think they usually do, most brands do men's size nine and women's seven and a half. For whatever reason Puma does size eight. So. They did size eight. It was six. Maybe because they wanted to get the weight down a little bit. Yeah, exactly. Sure. Six ounces though. So it's like that, like hyper light on that super shoe side of the market. And then women seven I was like 5.2oz. So the other interesting thing I guess with this shoe two was they used an ETP midsole versus like PE foam. So it's sort of like it helps us answer that question of like, is there a variety amongst foams? Because I know when a lot of the original super shoes came out, it kind of seemed like if you don't have people, you don't have a shoe. So that was one of those kinds of considerations. But, you know, we've got some new stuff that's actually performing high as well. But, someone was saying that the interesting thing about the shoe, too, was they really didn't introduce anything that was new to the market. Like there was some new stuff on the shoe, a relatively new stuff, but nothing that had, like, never been used before. So it was like, it wasn't this like, oh, we've got this brand new feature that is going to. Now, when everyone puts this in their shoe, make things faster. It's like they found as close to what we could expect maximum performance out of our current Product materials that we have. Yeah. So we can do combinations of different stuff. Exactly. Now versus adding more, you're just like, oh, what can we do? Different foams, different whatever. Plates and stuff and. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because the thought is kind of like, what is the next big jump forward? Because, you know, the brands are especially Nike, I'm sure in their R&D they're looking at different things of like there's going to be something that comes out where it's like, oh, it's not even I mean, similar to the foam originally and the plating originally where it's like that was totally new. Like no one had foams in their shoes or carbon plates in their shoes. And now all of a sudden they did. whereas this just kind of feels more like, all right, we took the current upgrades and just maximized what they can do. The other kind of interesting thing is they had their plate actually extend past the toe. So I guess a longer lever for, propulsion maybe. I don't know to what degree that aids in the additional efficiency or none, or if it just looks kind of wild, but it looks weird. It looks like you have, like, a little bottle opener or something. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Which at the end of the race might be a good feature, but yeah, if you win the race, you can celebrate and you can pop it open. Yeah, yeah. I think it is interesting because I think they're like with the shoe tech you can. Lightness and weight is obviously one way to go, but I almost feel like we've reached the limit of maybe even what we want in terms of weight. Like, I feel like at some point you go so light that it almost just feels too weird. Like I want a little bit of something on my, I don't know, my foot. Like if I'm wearing something that's 3 or 4oz, it's like, oh, this is. Yeah, this is kind of weird. so like six. I mean, I think I feel like there's a sweet spot with weight, so I don't know if that's a variable. These companies will start playing with more or just introducing different tech. And I feel like that's probably the direction it's headed. But yeah who knows. Stacking plates. Maybe more than one I guess. Yeah. Yeah yeah. There's interesting stuff there. Well and the regulations are 40mm in one plate. So if they start stacking plates we get into another topic we're gonna talk about, which is illegal shoes. Yeah. I guess we might as well jump into that one then, because we did, the Brooks Hyper Iron Max three, which I got, they sent me the shoe and I didn't know a whole lot about it, so I just like, started diving in right away. And the first thing I noticed was, oh, it's got a 46 millimeter heel. It's like, so this isn't even a race legal shoe by, by standards, which is kind of a goofy thing because like. There's there's regulations, but these regulations only apply to certain people in certain circumstances. So like if the average person decided, hey, I want to wear that shoe at, you know, their local marathon, they're not going to get pulled aside, right. So I guess you're left to determine your own moral like understanding of what you think is what will. Yeah. Whatever you want to do with that. But like technically like if I were to wear this shoe at a race and break a record or go to a national championship or something like that and get a podium position, I would have that erased because of that extra six millimetres, which kind of had me wondering, like, I wonder why brands are actually making shoes like this where they aren't technically race legal. outside of maybe like kind of a cool marketing gimmick of just like, this is an illegal shoe and it's going to be faster yet because of that. And then I tried this shoe out and it was one of the first ones, because it's a premium shoe with their midsole foam. I think they use PBR on this. Yeah, PBA PBR midsole on this one. it's a little bit heavier at 9.9oz for that men's size, 98. eight ounces for the women's eight. I guess they did eight for women on this one. but it felt really stable. So I'm like, okay, because my issue with my Achilles tendon was a lot more lateral instability. That's what was aggravating it. So when I could get a shoe that had good lateral support, I was like, okay, I can probably make this work. So this was one of the first, like premium foam shoes. I started putting any meaningful amount of mileage in on a consistent basis, and I started to realize it's like, oh, you know what? If you go illegal and put extra foam in here, you can add extra stability so you don't make that compromise of stability by adding extra weight, because you probably get a little bit extra performance by building up that extra foam in there. So again, I didn't test this shoe comparatively, but my perception is if they were to make a shoe that got close to being high performance and maintain this, the stability due to the extra weight, it would be a design kind of like this. So I had a lot of fun in this shoe. I probably put a couple hundred miles in it now just because it's. The one that I've been able to tolerate. Yeah. It feels really stable. The one thing I did notice is, like, if I was running, like, a relatively steep downhill, which we have a lot of here in Austin, these, like, kind of steep, punchy hills. It took a little getting used to that. I'm not sure. Maybe that's just because, I mean, it's 46 millimeters and I'm probably hitting a steep downhill. So I might just be noticing that relative increase in stack when I'm running downhill. And it takes a few strides to kind of feel comfortable doing it. Yeah. My only real complaint with this shoe was, well, one, I can't wear it at a race to Brooks. It has the narrowest toe boxes of any of the shoes I wear, and some people probably don't care about that. me coming out of Ultra's foot shaped toe box, I noticed that probably a little bit more maybe, but it was like, you definitely noticed that on this shoe. They use a really nice knit upper, though. So it's one of those things where you put your foot in it. You're like, ah, it feels kind of weird up there. You start running. You really don't notice that much. At least I didn't really notice it that much while I'm running. But, if I take it out for a long run, it's like, yeah, I get a little bit of blisters, maybe a little bit of toenail stuff from it if I do a lot in it. So that's my biggest gripe. If they could, I think I'd post it on Instagram. It's like if they could take the New Balance Rebel V series toe box and put that on this shoe, it would be like the perfect shoe. Yeah, yeah yeah I know Brooks. They do have some narrow stuff and I've only recently just started wearing Brooks and haven't tried the Max three. But I've had the Max two and kind of like it. But you were telling me it's a lot different and it looks just completely different. But I mean, it's interesting that it's, you know, because it's upmarket. It's like a super trainer, right? Not necessarily a racing shoe. Yeah. Which is kind of interesting that it's illegal. Maybe that's kind of why they figured maybe their elites aren't going to be lining up in this. They're going to be wearing the Hyperion Elite, I guess is what their racing shoe is. And yeah, so maybe that was their thinking behind it. Or maybe that we're just we want a lot of people to wear this and it's illegal. And most people lining up for a marathon are concerned about it. Right. Yeah. If their shoes are legal or not huh. Yeah. Yeah. You could put a ton of miles in this shoe, I'm guessing. I'm guessing that's probably their angle. It is like someone wants a trainer with premium foam in it. That feels stable. A lot of people will like this shoe, I think. Like. Yeah. I mean, if you can get past the narrow toe box, then it's a fun shoe for sure. And yeah, the upper is like this. Because, you know, there's a lot of knit uppers on the market now, and you go from like a real kind of like static knit upper where it's like, oh, it's knit, but it really doesn't have any more give to it than a typical upper would. And then you get some that are super flexible, like the, the, neo zen I that that knit upper had a lot of give to it in my opinion. this one is kind of somewhere in between. It felt like, and I don't know if that's maybe because it's a little thicker knit, but it felt like it had enough give where I could sort of like, get my foot in there and lock down the back half of the shoe really nicely, but not so much give that. I felt like I'm flying up the side of the shoe when I took a turn or something like that, which was kind of nice because the value of the shoe was like the stability on that high stack height. So if it lost that due to the knit upper, then it would be unfortunate that that blend didn't match. But they did a really nice job, I think on the upper, especially on the back half of the shoe, I felt like that one was easy to kind of grip your heel. Nice, nice. Yeah, I'm excited to try this one out as well. Yeah. We'll see if you get a totally different impression. Maybe. Maybe you'll hate it. Yeah I might. Typically the narrow toe boxes don't necessarily bother me. I feel like wearing some shoes. Somewhat narrow toe boxes. So yeah. We'll see. You might love it more than me then. Cool. So I'm trying to think if there's anything else about that one that we didn't touch on. I think we hit on pretty much all of it. Yeah. Let's maybe get into it. Oh, let's do the track Smith shoe. That was kind of an interesting one. So this is one you did wear but I did not. So track Smith Elliott racer. What did you think about that? Yeah. So I was, you know, initially kind of a bit skeptical just because they're a clothing company. You're like, oh what? You know, what do you know about making shoes? But yeah, they sent me a pair of these and I wore them for the Bolder Bolder 10-K, which I didn't kind of race all out, but I used it as like a tempo, which I thought would kind of be a nice way to test it. And I was actually pretty impressed. So the only I think downfall is when you compare that shoe to some of the other super shoes, it's very, very low profile, very low to the ground. It's not, I'm not sure what the stack height on that is, but I'm sure it's fairly low, 33.5. So it's not super, not incredibly high stack height, but it was very responsive. I found it was probably one of the more comfortable, like shoes that I've worn. And I think the vibe that it gives is sort of like you're wearing a, like a, racing flat from, like the 1970s or something, but then it has the foams and the in the plate in there like a super shoe. So I think they're going for a lot of aesthetics with that shoe, obviously. But a pretty well-performing shoe, I think. It's something that I'd probably wear for a 10-K, maybe up to a half marathon wise. Again, it just didn't give me the stability that it really wanted. But a nice upper. I mean, it felt good. The fit was comfortable. And yeah, I feel like I could have, you know, do some speed, work in it, do some tempo, work in it. But I was pretty impressed with their shoes. And I hadn't tried their trainer. I know they have. I think it's just the Elliott trainer maybe, or something like that. Okay. yeah. And they have a removable, like you said, the removable insert with it. I think that is. So the insert itself is super thick. It's not like your standard insert that you might get from a shoe. So you could kind of like maybe swap that out if you had a custom insole or something. But I found that I kept it in because it significantly enhanced basically the structure of the shoe. But I really enjoyed it, so I had fun running in it. I've run in it a few times since then, but, yeah, definitely a nice speed work shoe. You could even use it as a trainer if you wanted to, but it's responsive, but pretty low profile. So I found that my legs felt a little more beat up. Maybe after a race compared to wearing a normal super shoe in that one. So with that removable piece that is , is that intended to be usable without that too then or is it I guess I guess not. So I say removable, but I mean, you could. You could theoretically put say like a different insole in there that wasn't, you know, a couple inches thick, but I think it's intended to just be left in there. So I actually have a pair of these like performance insoles that I put in all of my shoes. and I tried putting them in there, but it felt better with their kind of native insoles there. So I think it's just meant to be left in. Okay. Yeah. Because when I first saw that, I was like, are they because it looked substantial? Well it is yeah. Yeah. So you know most of the insoles are just these, basically it just covers up the inside of the shoe. But this one was actually a lot of the meat like the shoe was in that insole. Yeah. Did they say anything like can you order an extra pair of those? And like as you, as you pack down the shoe a little bit, you slide in a new one of those because it seemed like it was enough where like you could make if your shoe is holding up other than the midsole foam, then you could maybe ride it out a little longer with a new one of those versus getting a whole new pair. Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, it's a good idea, but I'm not. I'm not sure if that's available. That's the angle they're going. I would assume not. They might just want you to get a new pair. Yeah. Yeah. Or just charge you the same price for the new insoles. But yeah, not sure they're cool. Yeah. They did. One thing I wrote down was in it. So it's a 38 30.5 heel to four foot. But if I put this down it's a supercritical foam. And the actual insert is a heel of 12 millimeters and a four foot of 22mm. So it's like they put quite a bit of the midsole into that insert, which is interesting. Yeah. And if you take, if you take the insert out and then kind of feel within the shoe that there doesn't really seem to be much, it's kind of just like the plate racing flat. Yeah, exactly. It's just a racing flat. So I wonder if people will try that. Yeah, maybe. I mean, if you just wanted to use it as a trainer or just something like that, it might work. So it's kind of an interesting aspect of it that makes it a little bit of a unique shoe, but I enjoyed it a lot. Very cool. Yeah. It's interesting to see Smith jump into the shoe world and do some stuff. We talked about Brooks a little bit. Did you do anything in the launch 11. yes, I actually did a couple, a couple runs in the launch 11. And that one, it was, it was nice, but it was kind of like one of those unimpressive shoes where it's not I wasn't I didn't put it on and go on the run and like, oh, this is the most comfortable thing. It's kind of this shoe if you want a trainer that's a workhorse that's going to be good for anything. This is probably your shoe. I hadn't run in until we got, you know, some of these to test. I hadn't run in Brooks probably since high school, I think so, obviously. There, you know, the DNA foam and stuff in there I think is an upgrade from whatever they had. I think I ran in like, one of the early versions of the same shoe, but, so, so I liked it, but, you know, just overall underwhelming. But that doesn't mean I'm not in a bad way. Like, it's a great shoe. Just your everyday, everyday trainer. Yeah. Yeah. I was trying to think of like, because I, there's a few shoes like I would say we'll talk about on Cloud Surfer two where I was trying to think, how do you describe a shoe like this nowadays? Because it's like. It's a shoe. It's fine, but there's really nothing that jumps out at you with it. So then you get into the world of like, do I, do I want a shoe that has more of a baseline from a performance standpoint, similar to what you would traditionally get, just to kind of remind yourself what your dad is showing with your super shoes versus what it would have been historically. and then just yeah, shoes that can kind of tolerate a good chunk of mileage. So I try to convince myself of that. But then so like you put on a premium phone, I put myself in the mindset. I'm like, oh, I need a shoe like the launch where I just, I can go do it every day. And it's kind of like my baseline shoe. But then I'm like, why? We have all these exciting shoes, so why would I not run in one of these every day? So I don't really know how to approach that. Yeah. Like your shoe. This is the shoe that 10 to 15 years ago, every shoe was kind of like, you just put 'em on and you're like, oh, this is a running shoe. But now it's just like when you put on a shoe, you expect something a little extra there. and so I think our perception of what we want out of a shoe, you put on something like the launch. Yeah, it's a fantastic shoe, but it's just not giving you that extra excitement or, unique. Got some unique bells and whistles compared to, you know, some of the other stuff you're gonna wear. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's just like you said, I think it's kind of like an old school shoe sort of with that sort of stuff. I actually wonder, I think the broader topic is with those types of shoes, if we're going to see a whole lot more of them in the future, if they're going to get phased out to some degree. Maybe not, because, I mean, there's also a price point to consider. And, you know, when you start getting a lot of them. Really nice foams. You start usually getting up into close to a couple hundred dollars for a pair. So it's like, does someone want to get a shoe that's maybe 130 bucks? Then they're probably going 140 bucks. They might be able to get that with something like the launch. But then again you have Mizuno Neo Zen. Keep going back to that one. But it's like that foam is great. Like it is, it's probably not necessarily going to test a ton faster than like the Brooks launch, I wouldn't guess, maybe a little bit, but it feels awesome compared to it. Does it feel so good? I mean, yeah, that shoe is still one of our favorites, I think. Yeah, keep going back to it. But so so it's just one of those things where it's like, I wonder if like the future of shoes are going to just going to be to the point where now all of a sudden, like, you just don't see a whole lot of shoes like that where, you get that sort of fit and feel of what the old thing was, because what were the specs on the launch? That's because there's a 35 millimeter heel, 27, 27 millimeter forefoot. So it's not even like they're like, okay, here's your low profile. I mean, low relative to 40. Very low, I guess relative to 46 when you were talking about the Hyperion. But yeah, generally speaking, like if we go back to even old school shoes, a 30, 35 millimeter heel would be a pretty big heel. So, they're not really giving you that with it either. So yeah, I suspect it's going to be pretty durable. I wore this shoe quite a few times actually, in combination with Hyperion Max three. And I will say like every morning I put the shoe on instead, I was like, oh, this isn't going to be quite as much fun. Yeah. So I found this just to be a little stiff. Not as bouncy maybe, which I guess is good sometimes, but it was kind of rigid maybe compared to some of the other ones. And I just prefer a little more balance. And so again, I think everybody likes something different. Some people want something that just like, I can't bend this thing when I try to, so maybe that's what they want. But the price point thing is an interesting aspect. I think every brand needs to keep our whole line of premium stuff and it's like, hey, this shoe is going to be $100 always, you know, for the launch fans from, you know, decades ago. And they can continue to come back to it. Yeah. Yeah for sure for sure. And I guess we might as well jump into Cloud Surfer two then. So this one is pretty similar from like a in my pretty similar for me I thought in terms of just fit feel I mean even the stack height 37mm, 28 millimeter, four foot. what was the. Wait, I guess 8.3 oz and 7.2 for the Brooks launch and then, nine. And I guess they didn't list the women's nine ounces, two 55g for the men's nine on the cloud surface. So pretty similar. Yeah, I just think that one was probably another one that's kind of similar to it where like if you like an old school trainer, then it's kind of just like finding the one that works for you and just loading it up on miles. But again, I don't think anything stood out to me with this one where it was like, all right, this shoe has this feature that is going to separate it from the launch. 11 in a big way, or any of these other kinds of more traditional shoes. I would agree with that one too. And man, I own a brand of shoes that I've wanted, I want to like. But I've tried so many pairs now and I just can't get behind. I just can't get to them. You know I don't want to lose our love, you know, keep sending them a test. But like they need to send us one of their higher performing ones then I've just the models that I've tried, I've just been so unimpressed with and like I wanted one run and I was just like, I just viscerally. It's one of those shoes that just didn't feel good to me. And so I kind of just didn't run in it much or give it any, maybe like second tries. So again, maybe it was, maybe it's oh, it was kind of like, you know, like the launch. It's just your it's there. It's your traditional trainer. But, I think too, for me, it may just be something with like the system that they use in the structure of the underneath of the shoe, where it's a little bit the patterning is different and it's built a little bit different than some of the other shoes, and I just couldn't really get behind it. Yeah, yeah. I asked some people what they thought, you know, one has kind of a following of people that kind of like their stuff and, and the group that was kind of like the fans was like, oh yeah, I like it. It's just reliable. Like, you know, they know what they're getting out of it. Maybe it's just like maybe, maybe if you're looking for something that's not going to change drastically and you liked it then, then some people look for that too. Or like an update comes out and it's kind of a new shoe and they're just furious. And they start buying up the old models. Yeah, yeah. Like so I think there's maybe something there where it sort of has some similarities to some prior models that just work, work kind of similarly. And people are just like, okay, cool. I'm not like drastically changing anything because, you know, at the end of the day, runners are probably more, more worried about getting injured and for sure not being able to run. So if they perceive a shoe is going to get them that, then they're going to stick with it for the most part. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that I think we talked about this last time a little bit, was just like doing a shoe that was a little bit older, that was now on sale. So people are like, okay, I want to get a shoe that is maybe even under $100. and like what would be a good, good one to chat about with that? So this just kind of fell and fell in my lap. Given that, New Balance sent us the rebel V4 and then like, they updated to the V5 shortly thereafter. So that shoe immediately went from, I think $140 to like, I think like 97 bucks or something like that on the website. So I was like, okay, well, this was kind of an interesting enough shoe where it's probably fun to talk about it. I don't know if the V5 changed drastically. but I hope it does. You do? Okay. Okay, good. We'll get some contrast here. Maybe. Although I'll say this when I. When I got the shoe, I put it on my foot. I'm like, okay, I really want to love this shoe because it fits my foot perfectly. It was like, all right, that the front would fit it like molded my shoe perfectly. I could lock it down the back. It flared up enough in the front where I felt like I had space. and I was like, I really hope I like this shoe. And then I don't know if my expectation was that it was going to have more pop, but it just kind of felt flat, like I felt like I can't really get the same because like some shoes you put on and you almost feel like you got to put the brakes on them. This one felt like I had to, like, really try to hammer in the shoe to kind of get it to go fast. I get it's like that lawnmower where you have to pull that rip cord like 3 or 4 times before it starts going. That's kind of how it felt to me. So it was like I would say maybe because it fit my foot well, it stood out compared to like the Brooks launch or the on Cloud Surfer, but. From a performance standpoint, I don't know that I put it in that much different of a category. I think I mean, pretty much what you just said is my exact feelings on it. So I put it on probably one of the most comfortable shoes I've ever put on. I was like, oh, I love this. Like, I would, I wish I could wear this all day. And then I wanted to like it so bad. And I took it on, you know, several runs. And, I basically came to the conclusion, like the only run type that I would use this for is like a 5 to 7 mile easy recovery run, because it did look like I just had to. It required a lot more effort to run that shoe than some of the other ones. Like you said, it just didn't give me anything. It was just under it felt like a racing flat, almost some of the older ones without as much pop. So yeah, it was one of those other shoes I wanted to love because I liked how it looked, which obviously doesn't matter. But, you know, you want to shoot. That looks cool. I thought it looked cool. It felt so good. But they just didn't give it to me. Didn't give me what I was looking for, like, the performance perspective. It's like, this would be a great recovery shoe. But then even then, there were other more cushy shoes that I would use for recovery. So I didn't see many use cases for it. And so that one fell kind of flat, pun intended. So that's why I was saying I hope the V5 looks a little bit different, but I'm not sure if they've changed anything. So, maybe we'll have to read some reviews or test them out ourselves, I guess, to see if there's a comparison. But, you know, and I wouldn't recommend it, you know, I think people, you know, try it out on their own, but it's a very comfortable shoe. And it could be kind of like an all around trader. Like you said, if you're looking for something that's a $100 price point and you just want to try something out, I say go for it. New balance is a great brand. But yeah, I wasn't impressed with that shoe either. Yeah. And so they're in their defense I guess so it's not meant to be their high performing shoe. It's a 34 heel, 28 four foot. I mean, they did use PB of foam in there, but it was like a real firm version of it. 7.5oz. I had it. Or they, I think they are categorized as, like a session, a lightweight trainer or a session shoe or something like that, which, I would say, is stretching. Stretching it a little bit. You know, where I liked it was I would do a long run on a Saturday, and then I would have been like, it'd be like a humid morning, as it almost always is this time of year, I just get out of the Hyperion max trees. My toes are a little more sensitive than they normally would. And I was like, oh, this feels nice and I don't really care how slow I am today. So yeah, definitely no. Definitely a good use case I think for sure. But and I guess, you know, if they're, if they're making meaning for it to be a. Session. Sure like it fits. Probably the purpose that they meant it for. And they have plenty of other models like the Super Comp trainer. Love that one. And I think we'll talk about the 1080 probably. So yeah. So I think it's a good shoe if you want to have a rotation and really are like, this is an easy day shoe only I think it would, you know, be a good shoe for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There'll be people who like it I think just from the fit, the way people wear it, I mean you go around, run around town like I've seen a lot of people wearing it. So it has some of the following I guess. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Then I think the only other new one we had was the New Balance 1080, which I sort of talked about a little bit. yeah. The 1080 was the one I liked as well. That kind of surprised me. And I don't, I don't think up to that shoe I've ever run almost in a new balance, maybe like a junior high or something. But, I love the foam on that. And like you said, it's. I guess it's not. You know, they don't market it as like, oh, it's your super trainer, you're a super racer. But I found it to be very bouncy and like I took it for several runs, some long runs, some runs around the lake and like it can get fast. It takes a little bit of time to like work into that, but, like, very responsive and just I like the amount of cushion under it and that fresh foam that they have was something I enjoyed a lot. So that's actually been one of my favorite shoes and kind of was surprised at how much I actually ended up enjoying it. Yeah, yeah. This was one where I would say, like if I were to envision where I think the shoe world is going, where we were saying before, like shoes, like the launch 11 and Cloud Surfer maybe start kind of phasing out a little bit. This is the type of shoe I would imagine it replaces. Replaced because it's still kind of like, you know, kind of a recovery, maybe a trainer. But it has things that stand out to me. Like there's different things about this shoe where I could say, like, if I put this on my foot versus something else that's in that category of like, I'm just gonna load some miles up on this. I'm not going to take it to the track and do my intervals or anything like that, or race in it necessarily. It has features that are like, okay, this makes this one unique. Again, like New Balance, I like their toe box quite a bit. So I got that same kind of experience as I did with The Rebel four V4, whereas like, okay, this feels really nice up front. Had the added benefit. They caught me at the perfect time because it was like when I first started running after my Achilles injury, I was like, okay, I gotta find it because what they tell you with Achilles stuff is find a shoe that works and don't change it. Like as if you're rehabbing it, like you don't want variety. I was like, great, we're testing shoes and now I can't. I can wear one shoe. So like for but for like I think it was maybe two and a half or three weeks, I was wearing basically nothing but the 1080, 14. And the reason was, is because like. It felt really stable laterally on my Achilles like I could. It was like night and day too. I went out for a run one day and I was like, I still kind of feel it. And the next day I put this shoe on and went out. I didn't feel it at all. And it was just like every run I would do in that. And then I even phased in another shoe a couple times periodically in those next couple of weeks. And this was still pretty early on in the rehab process. And I could notice a difference. So I'm like at that point, after having like 2 or 3 shots at kind of comparing and contrasting, I was like, okay, that's the shoe. This is the one that's going to let me run. I don't care how slow it is, it's just if I'm running, this is my option right now. So, I loaded that thing up with quite a bit of miles, but yeah, that fresh from it just feels nice and soft. It feels, you know, like a good trainer to me. A good recovery shoe, a good trainer. yeah. What is it? 38mm of the heel, 32 of the four foot. It's a beefy shoe. 10.5oz. Yeah, it's very plush. That's the way I would describe it, but not in a bad way. Like, that's kind of sometimes what you're looking for. Like, it doesn't have this super thin, sock-like upper, but it's just this very plush, cushiony shoe, and sometimes that's what you want. It was another thing I did notice about this shoe too, as there are some shoes where they feel kind of slow. But as you speed up, they may gain a little bit of relative efficiency. So I don't know if they blended this one with an Eva and P bus. So maybe it was something where once you got enough force into that foam, you started getting, you started noticing a little bit more where I felt like, okay, this shoe is not going to give me any performance, it's just going to be all comfort. But then when I hit a certain intensity, it would be like, now I feel like it's maybe relative to the shoe itself, a little bit better at faster paces. So whether you completely exclude it from any sort of speed work is maybe a user decision at that point. But or maybe you're like me and you had no choice at the time. Yeah. but yeah, definitely run fast in it for sure. Yeah, yeah. If I were to pick a shoe out of the group we reviewed where it was like, all right, I'm not looking for the performance side of things, but I'm looking for something that can take a lot of miles. It feels good. It's fun to run in. This would definitely be on the short list. I think yeah, that would be mine too. This fits into the category of maybe the neo zen, where it's like, if I said you have one shoe that you're going to train in this entire year, it would probably be part of the list. Yeah. Because it can fit kind of whatever. You know, I don't want to necessarily do a speed session in it, but I could if I had to. Yeah. And that's the cool thing about it too, because it's noticeably different from the neo zen. But they sort of have the same purpose. So like, I think I like that where you can have like some variance there where it's like, if I want a shoe that has a little more like little more play in terms of how my foot works, my lower legs work, I'm going in the nose. And if I want a shoe that's going to basically support that lower foot complex in its entirety, then I'm going to be going with that New Balance 1080. but they both kind of have some of those features that stand out despite not being like your racing shoe. So, cool. One other thing I'll quickly share too, is we talked about the last one like I've been trying to pick a shoe that I put a ton of miles on just to give it, like a durability test. So I think I have, I think technically after I think it was on Wednesday, I did a 50 mile. I think that I got the neo zen up to 450 miles now. So I would say that's beyond the threshold of what I would typically expect to get out of a shoe nowadays. and then you can ask like, well, is the thing tattered, right? Because it's like you can take any shoe to 450 miles if you want, right? Yeah, yeah. You got a hole in the side. Right. Exactly. Yeah. So it was interesting. Like I kept waiting for that foam to break down and. It just feels the same. Like it hasn't felt like, okay, this shoe is different now when I step into it, when I take those first few steps as I get going through my gait cycle as it did. Granted, if I put on a new pair, maybe I would notice some small variances, but I've put enough miles on it where I feel pretty comfortable about what the experience is with that shoe. So if you're looking for a shoe, that kind of can be pretty durable. I think it would stand up to that. The thing that's wearing the quickest on it, to me, is part of the outsole on, I think, my left shoe. My left side is worn down a little bit, kind of near the back, the front part of the back half of the heel, which I think might just be the hills in Austin. We were talking about that before. If I'm running on the right side of the road, I'm getting a little bit more action on that because I was curious, like, I wonder why. I mean, I could just have something different with my gait on that side of the foot too, or on that side versus my right side. That's causing that side to wear down a little bit faster. But, that's probably specific to me. But anything, I guess if I'm getting any sort of information that's usually useful to the user here is like the thing that seems to be wearing maybe the quickest on it is the outsole, but 450 50 miles. None of the outsole. That is like a really important impact point, kind of up on the forefoot or anything like that is really worn to any meaningful degree where I would say, okay, the shoes are starting to cause problems now because of it. So I guess I have to keep wearing it if we want to really fail. But, take it to failure. I think that was your initial. Yeah. So you want to wait till the third one to see if I can officially break the shoe? I am, yeah. So I kind of went in that category. I mean, I would agree that my sentiments are the same about the Neos, and I don't have quite as many miles on that one, but I recently surpassed 400 on the zoom fly sixes. That one is just still still poppy, still fast any time. I mean, when I go, if I go on any run in that shoe and granted, it does have a, it does have a plate in there. It's not the alpha fly level kind of, but it's there. Super trainer and I put that thing on and I'm running 15 20s per mile faster just like training runs. And it's held up very well. Like it's I can't really I mean I have to look at the wear patterns but not I certainly haven't broken the shoe yet. And 400 miles is, you know, well past what I put on a lot of the stuff. So that one kind of goes in my bucket of like, if you want, it's the all around shoe. It's certainly faster than probably any other trainer out there, I think. And, just like the durability is surprising to me because I figured being a super trainer having to play, it's going to wear down to 50 or whatever. But recently I passed 400 on that and it's not showing any signs of I probably can squeeze another 150-200 out of it. Probably. So nice. I was very impressed with it. Do you, do you find, like when you're in that shoe versus like the Alpha flight, do you notice like a little bit reduction in performance just perceptually or is it really hard to tell. It's kind of hard to tell that the zoom fly is one of those you were describing before. Some of these shoes you feel like you need to put the brakes on. I kind of feel like that too. Like if I wear that on an easy day when it's supposed to be easy, I find that it ends up being way too fast. But you just start going. It's like it's propelling you forward versus. So you gotta kind of gotta be, a little bit, a little bit safer with running in that shoe or a little bit more cautious because it'll cause you to speed up. I mean, I would say there's probably a noticeable difference between the alpha fly and that, but it's not insane. I know a lot of people who are like, oh, I, they race in the zoom flight even though it's a trainer because it's got similar, similar effects. But, I still notice a bump when I go from that to the alpha fly for sure. Do you feel a lot more stable? It's more stable. Yeah. Okay. It's wider that one actually has the toe box than that one as opposed to some of the other. Nike's is actually pretty, pretty wide and it's really not. I don't think it's that light of a shoe. I'd have to look up how much it weighs, but it's not too, too light of a shoe. But it's certainly a little bit more stable than the Alpha Flight. You're not wobbling. Yeah. Back and forth on it. Yeah. I don't think I have that one when you're running my list. You know, you hear that. You know, when you see a group of runners like in the Alpha Flight, it sounds like galloping horses. You kind of get that same, that same feeling or that same sound when you're running into the zoom fly. But it's been one of my favorite shoes, so I'm definitely gonna. I gotta buy a new pair soon, probably before these ones actually do run out. But my antenna goes up when I hear, like, the super trainers that feel relatively close to the racers because it's like, okay, there's probably an element of stability there. And I'm like, okay, if it's even close, then maybe this is like something to consider for a long ultra where stability becomes more important. Totally. I think for an ultra shoe that seems like it could be a good option where like the alpha fly might be a little too unstable for you. This one. Yeah. I think you should, you know, maybe play around with that one good option for you. All right. Cool. So, yeah, I think that it was just about all of it. For listeners who are curious, I'll have, like, shoe cards with some of the specs that we talked about. If you want to have, like, a resource to use while you're listening, I guess I probably should said, maybe I'll add an intro to this and tell it before that. So if they want to hop on Instagram and check those out, I'll put that up before the episode releases. But, Yeah, I think that's it. I don't think we. I'm missing anything other than, Training's going well for him. Yeah, it's going well. I got past whatever ailment was, like, post Boston. kind of just, like, went away. I don't know, I mean, I was doing some PT and stuff, but, yeah, dealing with little hip glute injury and just kind of like train through it a little bit back down some. And now I have zero pain. So gonna start. I've been kind of, embracing this just really unstructured kind of training during the summer. I'm just like, just do whatever volume I can, like, let's ride the bike a lot. Let's just. Yeah, run 4 or 5 days a week as many miles as I can. And I'll probably start some speed maybe in August. But I'm kind of just trying to be, I don't know, typically I do a 12 week build for a marathon, which is a lot shorter than maybe some people do, but I kind of find them just like if I have a great baseline fitness going into it. Yeah, use those 12 weeks to sharpen. Let's see what we can do at CIM. And I think the goal there, I mean, will be I'd like to go to 20. I mean, I think it would be nice and I think I'm in better shape. I don't think I lost a lot from Boston. so we'll see. But that'll, that'll kind of be the goal. And if these Puma faster threes. Yeah. Who knows what everybody's saying then maybe I can actually do it. So that'll be that'll be cool to see. That'll be cool to see for sure. Yeah. Yeah. What's next for you? So I just got to a point where I'm like, all right. At least from a timeline standpoint, I can start thinking about a race. so I'm going to do a flat run of 100 mile, or I'm kind of on the fence between Tunnel Hill and Canal Corridor. The benefit of Canal Corridor is it is a Western States qualifier. So within the timeline. So like if I do that one I can enter the lottery for Western states. If I don't then I won't have a qualifier. So then I can enter the lottery. I mean I'll have like a 1% chance of getting in either way. So it's like I'm probably not going to make that the determining variable, but it is what I'm considering. Both those courses have a pretty similar play to them. They're both like a real flat kind of rails to trails type of course, crushed limestone. I think Canal Quarter has like 1000ft of total elevation gain over 100 miles. Tunnel Hills maybe got a little bit more, but it's all congested into this, like one little spot. Right. and the weather's like almost perfect there every year, so, Yeah, it'd be I'm part of me wants to go to Tunnel Hill because it's like. Charlie Lawrence is going after the 100 K world record there this year, which is. It's kind of cool to be there. Des Linden's running the 50 mile there this year, so it'd be cool to see that happen. Yeah. So. And I've been there a couple of times. I know what I'm getting out of that one, too, and I do feel like I've got a faster day on that course than I've put out in the past, so it'd be kind of fun to, like, improve on that if I can, if I can get there. But yeah, it's going to be a flat, flat 100 miler at some point. Oh, I should say the other advantage of canal colors is a little bit earlier. So the hard part with Tunnel Hill, tunnel Hill is too close to Javelina and it's too close. It's not that it's too close to Desert Solstice to really kind of say, like, all right, I'm gonna try to do both of these realistically canal corridors a little bit earlier. So if I did decide, all right, that went awesome. Or maybe it didn't. I want to try to squeeze in another race. I could probably justify Desert Solstice if I did it that way. So those are the ideas in my head at the moment. But either way, it's good to see you back and running. Yeah. No, it feels good. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Brady, where can people find you? Yeah. So, on X is where I'm kind of most active. B underscore Homer. Then I write a newsletter, physiologically speaking. So you can just go to Physiologically Speaking. That's my Substack and I also do. Recently I've started another newsletter. I didn't start it. I inherited it, but it's called run long run Healthy. So. Oh, cool. People listening to this podcast will be interested. It's basically every week I'll take like 5 or 6 studies on anything. Basically, how can you run faster? How can you run stronger? Interesting stuff related to running specifically. and I kind of just do brief breakdowns of it. So not really deep dives, but that goes out weekly as well. I inherited that from Amby Barefoot. So 1968 Boston. Oh right on. Yeah. I saw you did a podcast. He wrote that for probably several years, and then he basically retired from that. And, him and Thomas Watson, CEO of Marathon Handbook, were like, hey, we like you writing want to take this over? And I said, oh, sure. What's another newsletter? Right. Yeah. But it's fun. It kind of scratches that itch because with my Substack, I don't always write about running stuff. It's like anything. Science is kind of fair game, but with this, it's every week I'm just diving into stuff on running. And so it could be about durability, it could be about super shoes, it could be about fueling. So that one's been fun and so run long, run healthy. If people Google that, you can probably be okay, but that one's not housed on Substack. That one's on one too. Oh it is okay, so you could sign up for both. It also goes out like a couple other platforms. We send it out in a medium to and that it also goes out through the Marathon Handbook newsletter. So people could find it multiple ways, but Substack might be the best way if you just want to sign up for that. So. Awesome. Yeah, well, I'll link all that stuff to the show notes, I'm sure. Like people want to read some of that stuff. Your Substack is great, so it's always fun to share that. Yeah. Thanks, Zach. Awesome. Brady. Well, we'll have to record some more shoes once you beat up a few pairs that I just gave. You got a whole bag out there. So my wife's gonna be mad that I'm coming home with your stuff. She's gonna throw. Throw one. Yeah. That's right. You're moving to make me throw away every new pair. For every throw away a pair for every new pair I get. Yeah. Or something. I typically find a way to get around that rule. Well, if the new house is bigger, she's got a switch to it. Yeah, we're getting like, twice to throw one away. I mean, you get a yeah it's a two for one keep and throw away the stream can just be for shoes. Awesome. Well thanks again for some time. Thanks, Zach. This is great. All right. Take care. Yep.