Episode 447: Ultramarathon Records at Dead Cow Gully | Phil Gore

Phil Gore recently broke the Backyard Ultra World Record at Dead Cow Gully, completing 119 yards (6.7 km loop), which totaled 495.86 miles (798.014 kilometers). Phil plans to compete at Big's Backyard, which hosts the Backyard Ultra World Championship. Phil and I dive into all that goes into the preparation and competition within Backyard Ultras, and why bigger numbers are coming.

Endurance Training Simplified Series

LMNT: drinkLMNT.com/HPO (free sample pack with purchase)

deltaG: deltagketones.com Code: BITTER20 (20% Off)

Maui Nui Venison: mauinuivenison.com/bitter

CurraNZ: curranzusa.com Code: Bitter20deal (20% Off)

HPO Sponsors: zachbitter.com/hposponsors

Support HPO: zachbitter.com/hpo 

Zach’s Coaching: zachbitter.com/coaching

Zach: zachbitter.com - IG: @zachbitter - X: @zbitter - Substack: zachbitter.substack.com - FB: @zbitterendurance - Strava: Zach Bitter - TikTok: @zachbitter - Threads: @zachbitter

Phil: @phil.gore.ultrarunner | Strava

Timestamps/Topics:

00:00:00 Introduction

00:01:50 Evolution of Backyard Ultra Running

00:09:40 The Importance of Patience in Ultrarunning

00:19:22 Developing a Structured Running Routine

00:29:01 Training Backyard & Ultra Races

00:38:32 The Role of Crew in Ultramarathons & Backyard Ultras

00:48:16 Impact of Nutrition and Sleep Deprivation for Backyard Ultras

00:58:14 Pushing Limits in Ultra-Endurance Races

01:08:26 The Mental and Physical Limits of Ultramarathoners

Episode Transcript:

Phil, thanks a bunch for taking some time to come and chat with me about all things, I guess ultra running in the backyard, ultra running. And now we can set world records. Yeah. Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah, it was, it's it's so much fun to kind of watch the sport grow, but also watch, like the different kind of angles of the sport grow where I've gone down this kind of rabbit hole pretty much this year, I guess, from kind of jumping into kind of like the history of ultrarunning. And that sort of led me to learning a lot more about, like, some of the more multi-day type events that were super popular, like even hundreds of years ago. and now with the modern rise, kind of an ultra running popularity and things like that, we've sort of seen like, you know, different iterations of popularity with certain events and things like that. I know, like when I first got into ultra running, it seemed like the 100 mile was like this, this distance that everyone just kind of, like, worked towards. And then once they got there, it was about sort of maybe hitting some of the key ones or optimizing their performance within them and things like that. And I would have never guessed at the time that we would be in 2025 and have as much popularity around the diversity of stuff. And I think at that point backyards didn't even exist yet. So the fact that that particular event has gotten so popular now in the last few years has been kind of an exciting, exciting thing to have within the ultrarunning community. Yeah, definitely. yeah. Like in Australia, I think the backyard has only been around for 5 or 6 years, and so I feel like I've kind of grown up with it a bit. Like the first one I think was in 2019. I ran my first 1 in 2020, and it's just cool to be a part of there. Seeing the growth of that event in Australia and also worldwide. Yeah. Yeah. Did you get into running at an early age, just with more traditional events and things like that, or did you take up running later in life? so I started in high school. So, yeah, like 12 or 13 years old. just started with like cross-country and athletics. So I was doing like 800m, 1500 metres, cross-country was sort of 3 to 6 K's. so yeah, not like the distances I'm doing now, but I did I did get quite good at those sort of middle distance events. yeah. Kind of. When I started, I was not a great runner. I just but just stuck with it and consistency kind of over the course of my high school, over the course of my time at high school, ended up becoming one of the, you know, top three runners in the school. but, yeah, left school, you know, started working full time. The running kind of just went to the wayside. I would do it sporadically, like, every now and then I'd be like, oh, let's go for a run today. just to, you know, get a bit of exercise or some fresh air or whatever. I wasn't really doing races. but yeah, once every now and then I'd be like, oh, yeah, maybe I'll sign up for that race. I've got nothing on that day. And, you know, I might go and run three times before that race just to make sure I still know how to run. it wasn't until about 11 years ago. So end of 2014, I actually got back into it properly, and, Yeah. So I changed jobs. became a firefighter, had a bit more spare time. So we did like a four days on, four days off roster. So I was just looking for something to fill my days and tried a few different sports. and I just kind of like running was just one thing I gravitate back towards because it was easy. I didn't have to go to a gym or a, you know, a sports center or anything to to do it. I could just step out my front door and start running. I didn't like I could run with other people if I wanted, but I didn't have to. I could do it on my own. so it was just like. It was just simple. Like it was something I could do every day. And. Yeah. So I made a commitment at the end of 2014 that I'm going to run every day in 2015. And, so I started A5KA day run streak, just with that aim of improving my five k time and. Yeah. So it worked. I got quicker and quicker at the five K, so I started at around 20 minutes. Six months later I was down to 17 minutes. I got to the end of, of a year of doing the five k down. I'm just like, this is going so well for me. Let's just continue it. And it was just such an ingrained habit in my life by then. it was just easy to keep going with it. And then. Yeah, I did, you know, events up, up into a marathon. And at the time, I thought, you know, the marathon was like the pinnacle of running. It's like, if you can do a marathon, that's like the biggest run you can do. And then they kind of learn about ultras, and I'm like, oh, okay, this runs bigger than marathons. But you know, that's not something I'll ever do. I'll be happy with the marathon. And yeah, somehow. Yeah, just stuck with running. And the distances did end up getting bigger and bigger. And, yeah, here I am today running world records. So yeah, it's been quite a journey. Yeah. Running is so funny like that. I think when I, when I talk to someone who is either just starting or has never run before, and they kind of get into that. That phase in the beginning where it feels awkward to have that in the schedule, where you feel like you're accommodating it, you're trying to get through it. You're seeing it as sort of like an obligation more than it is something that you look forward to. And then at some point that sort of flips and you notice it where you take a rest day and you're like, oh, I feel worse on this rest day, or I feel out of place on the rest day. And then you kind of get into that trend that you kind of described, where it's like you start exploring the different areas of running between, you know, the more traditional distances and things like that. And then eventually you find yourself maybe looking back at your former self, thinking like, man, what would that person have thought if I had told them I was going to do this multi day backyard at some point? So what would a younger Phil have said to an older Phil if, if the older Phil told him, one day you're going to be running for multiple days and be the king of one of these, backyard ultra setups. Yeah, I've often thought about that before. It's like, yeah, if I'd gone back to my younger self and told myself what I had achieved today, there's no way I would have believed it. Like, I wouldn't have even believed I would have done a run longer than a marathon, let alone an event that goes for five days and is a world record. it's certainly something like where I am today is not somewhere I ever pictured myself being. but I'm so glad that my life has kind of still led me to this point. It's not, it's certainly not something I aimed for. Like, I was never, you know, running these three K crosscountry thoughts for one day. You know, I want to be a world champion, and I want to run for five days straight. yeah. It was something I never envisioned myself doing. so, yeah, it's just funny how life works out that way. Yeah it is. I always wonder about how that impact or would impact development too, because when I, I had a similar I have a similar kind of framework with my thoughts of it to where when I went out for cross-country in college, I was just talking to the head coach, and he just explained to me kind of the the different mileage targets. A lot of the, you know, freshman, sophomore, juniors and seniors would be doing. And he got around to like explaining what the training load looked like for the juniors and seniors. I remember just thinking, like, I couldn't even wrap my head around how that would work. I was like, well, if I take a rest day, that means I got to run this many miles or kilometers each day. And it just didn't compute. And it's like, you know, now you run more than that in one day at some of these ultramarathons and things like that. So I think about that through the lens of just like I wonder, like I think some of that is good in the sense that you, you sort of grow with the sport in a more kind of like local to your own understanding, and you learn to kind of add things as they are more sustainable versus maybe thinking to grand and then overwhelming yourself with expectations and things that are maybe you're not ready for at the time. So I was kind of thinking about the development side of things and how I'm kind of glad I wasn't like. At least from an ultrarunning perspective. Like in a place after like, say, high school where I was like, okay, this is a potential career path because I don't think I would have been ready for that sort of a mindset and, and level of, just just a level level of dedication to apply to something like that at that time in my life. But, it's an interesting thought experiment. Yeah. Like, I think if I were to take myself back to when I started doing the 5KA day and if I'd said, yeah, I want to do, you know, these hundred mile, 200 mile, five day races and just kind of made that my next target? I wouldn't have built the foundations properly. I wouldn't have, you know, I might have been able to have a good crack at it, but I probably would have, you know, destroyed my body a bit in the process or, you know, done some damage. And I probably certainly wouldn't have enjoyed it as much. and I think with running, it's all about the journey. And, like, I think you really need to be patient in the sport. And it's whether, like, you put it down to the scale of just a single race, like you need to be patient in the race because these races take such a long time to do. Like when you're out there for, yeah, you're running your back out ultra and you know it's going to be going for like 4 or 5 days. You just got to be patient, enjoy the process, and kind of let those big numbers come to you rather than going and chasing them. And the same thing is like with training, you just got to be patient. It's a it's a long process. You're not going to go from running 50 days a week to running 160 days a week without doing some damage or without, you know. Finding it more of a chore and not liking the sport. So yeah, I think it's important to to grow with it and not, not kind of chase these audacious goals from the get go. and yeah, just build it build on those foundations is just so important. You gotta have that good base to start with. Yeah. Are you still maintaining a run streak at this point or do these backyard events kind of take that off the table from a recovery standpoint? Yeah. So, I, I when I first started my run streak, so I ended 2014, I got about three, three years and two months into it when I had to stop. And that's because I went away for Army training, and I was away for a month, and we, I just physically couldn't get it done. As soon as I got back. Day one of being back, I started the run streak again. Now, there's been a few times where I have done a big ultra since then where I've had to pause the streak because as much as I've tried to get out and run the next day, it's just I've just been too broken. but pretty much as soon as I'm able to start running again, I start the streak again. my most recent streak. So I had, the bigs backyard world championship two years ago in October. I had to stop running after that. But since that, since I started running again after that event, I've been maintaining the streak. So I've had. For backyard ultras. I've had two 24 hour runs. I've had a 100 mile race. And after all of those events, I've still been able to get out and run the next day. Like it hasn't been fast. You know, I maybe could have benefited from having a day of rest or two days of rest, but I think mentally it was important for me to get out there and prove to myself that I could still do it. but yeah, even though, like, I'm just looking at, you know, doing a minimum of like five KS or maybe 6.7 after a backyard just because it's a nice number. but, yeah, just just getting that done. Ticking the box to say I've done it for that day. And then, yeah, I think that consistency just pays off. And, yeah, might be a week or two weeks before I'm back into my normal running routine. but yeah, I've still got out there and run for at least a little bit each day. yeah, it's interesting to think about it because, like, you look at the physical side of things, it's like, yeah, you probably aren't doing yourselves. I mean, you might not be doing any damage by running the next day after an ultramarathon if it's just a short little shakeout run. But you're probably not doing yourself any favors either if you just look at it purely through the physical. But when you get into the world of what you're doing, where you have to ask yourself, like, all right, how am I going to respond for days into this event when you know the bell or whatever rings and I have to go back out for another yard? It's like there's a psychology to that of just like kind of, I think keeping your mind in a place where you've convinced yourself that the answer is going to be yes until I physically can't do it anymore, which is the case with these a lot of times it's like I was following this most recent one when with you and Sam Harvey, and it's just like eventually something happens where one of you just can't, can't do it anymore. And it seems like with the two of you guys, it's not really the mental stuff. It's like something physical has to break down or happen to the degree where you can't make it around the loop any longer. So I do wonder about that. Just like the mindset that is required for what you're doing within the endurance world versus what you'd maybe see someone you know, trying to optimize and like, say, the five K or ten K or something like that. Yeah. It's. Yeah, it's definitely like a very different form of running. yeah. For me, it's like I just kind of take it like a lap at a time. I'll focus on, you know, I finish one lap, I start the next. I know that these events are going to go on for a long time, but I don't get caught up in thinking, you know, I've still got another four days of this or I've still got another five days of this. I just think I've got 6.7 K's to do when I get back. This is what I'm eating, you know. You know, I need to put on sunscreen or change my shoes or whatever it is I need to do during the break. I just kind of, break the event down that way. and, yeah, like you do, it is you do need to build your body to a point that it can physically handle it like it is. Don't get me wrong, it's a very physical event, but, the mental side of it just played such a huge part. You have to be prepared to turn up and run every single lap, no matter how you're feeling. And I think, yeah, that comes back to your training. Like when you have, you might have a long run on your plan and you just wake up and you just, you know, you really can't be bothered. It's like, you know, you're going to get times in the backyard ultra where you just don't want to line up to that start line. So when you get these moments in your training, you just have to embrace that. Yeah. You don't want to go out for your run. Too bad. You gotta get out there and do it. You know, if it's too wet or you're just not feeling great. You're not in a good mood. You've had a busy day at work. Whatever it is, you can still get out there and get that run done and prove to yourself that you can get it done. So when you get those points in the backyard and you're like, I really don't want to go and do this next lap, you know, in training you've done those runs that you don't want to do, and that'll help you push through and start that lap and hopefully finish that lap and be able to start the next one. Yeah, yeah. The other thing I was going to ask you about, too, was your introduction to ultra marathoning was basically a backyard, right. Was that like the first, like, structured ultra marathon that you did? Well, technically it was a 47 K, because I used to just kind of run up to the marathon. But I look at that 47 K run and it's like, you know, it's not really much more than a marathon. It's, you know, it's not even 50 K. So I didn't really, kind of see myself as an ultra runner at that point. The first official ultra marathon I did, was a 12 hour race, so I had a free entry for a 12 hour race. not typically an event that I would sign up for, but because it was free, I'm like, why not? And, you know, I could have done the three or the six hours, but I'm like, well, the 12 hours are the most expensive. So, you know, I'll be getting the most value if I do that one. And, you know, if I start the 12 hours and I can only run for six hours, then it'll be no different to me signing up for the six hours anyway. So yeah, I did the 12 hour and, Yeah, I just kind of started out at a conservative pace and just thought, you know, I picked a pace that I thought I could hold and yeah, ended up running 124 K's and came second in that event. So that was probably the first moment where I thought, you know, this is something I might be good at. but it wasn't until 18 months later that I did my next ultra, which was my first backyard and. finishing that race or I didn't finish. I got a DNF in that one. I was the second, second place. yeah. That was the moment where I was like, this is something that I think I've got a bit of potential in, and I really want to explore that space. Yeah, that is interesting. I want to get in a little bit to just kind of your preparation with these things and then as well as like how you strategize and structure the actual event itself when, when you first got into maybe, I'm guessing when you were running in high school and things like that, like you probably had a more structured training around like speed work development and, you know, workouts and things like that, along with like just the general running side of things. Was that something you went back to when you got back to running again, or was it just like, all right, I'm gonna go and run and maybe push hard some days and had very little structure around it. Yeah. So when I was in high school, we pretty much did the training Monday, Wednesday and Friday morning. So my reason for that was to just be consistent, just get us to as many of them as I could. It meant waking up earlier and getting to school a bit earlier and getting all that training done before, you know, the school day started. So yeah, I just went along and I did whatever the coach kind of had planned for that day. I didn't really do a lot of running outside of school. You know, I was doing the training three times a week, which, you know, was probably enough for me at that point. but yeah, when I got back into running, ten years ago, there was. Yeah, I didn't really transfer any of that structure over. It was just like my only, my only thing was I just want to run five days minimum each day. Some days I'll do a little bit more, but most days it was just I'd go out and do five KS and then once a week I'd do parkrun. And because I wanted to see like my goal was to just improve my parkrun time. So that Saturday run was like a sort of a benchmark test. It's like I'd go and sprint the Saturday parkrun as fast as I could. and then yeah, the next six days were just relaxed running. I might do some interval sessions here and there, but there was no structure to it. It might just be like, oh, today I feel like doing intervals. I'll go and do some intervals, or today I feel like doing a longer run, so I might go and run a bit more. but I didn't really have any structure. I just kind of played it by ear. I remember when I started getting into the bigger distances, it was when Covid hit, you know, a lot of things had closed down. I had a bit more spare time. you know, parkrun had been put on hold, so I wasn't really saving myself for that fast five k every week. And I thought, well, I can run a bit more during the week because I don't need to, you know, rest my body in the lead up to that. And yeah, I just started running longer and longer and it gradually built up. And I kind of got to like 100 cars a week. And I thought, you know, this is this is a lot of running like, this is probably a pretty good number to be around. And I don't know if there's much benefit in doing more than that. and then yeah, like I look back on that now and I think, well, 100 days a week now would be a short week for me. Like, I've just kind of just become accustomed to doing, you know, 140, 150 k weeks. and yeah, I definitely have a lot more structure now. Like when I go into an event, I will, you know, plan it out like 12 weeks in advance, like, what's it going to look like with my Where my Hill session is going to be? Where it's my interval session is going to be where my long run is going to be. You know, I've got specific mileage targets I want to hit each week. But yeah, all of that, it kind of didn't start until, yeah, I got into the back at ultras and after my first back out oil trial when I was like, this is where I want to focus my energy. That's when I started doing that more structured stuff. yeah. Working with the coach at first, and I worked with a couple of different coaches, and then I just kind of developed my own thing from what I learned working with those coaches. And, yes, I do. I structure my own plans now, and it seems to be working well for me, so I just kind of stick with it and, yeah, make small tweaks here and there. but, yeah, it seems like what I'm doing is working, so I don't want to change it too much. Yeah, it gets really interesting when you get into ultramarathon and especially multi-day, where I think there's still a lot of agreement along just how to develop as a better runner in terms of doing workouts at the right times, like targeting amounts of volume around the individual's tolerances and kind of learning those things. Then you sort of get to that point where it's like, okay, well, how do I take this? And then prepare myself to be able to extrapolate forward into, like, you know, way beyond what you'd ever do in a single training session. So do you have anything like that where you get to, like the end stage of your training and you're like, all right, now I need to start kind of focusing on preparing myself more for the exact specifics I'm going to do for the backyard style by doing like backyard simulations or anything like that. I don't really do backyard simulations just because, like, I feel I've done enough backyard ultras now, like I've done 14 backyard ultras now. And like, I think just the experience I've had from that has helped me immensely. everyone I've done, I've, you know, I've learnt something new. I've, you know, I've just had that experience and I don't know what to do, and I know what sort of mindset I'm going to get into. I know what sort of physical condition my body's going to get into. I've developed the little routines that I need to do in between the laps and things like that. So I feel like I've got enough experience now that I don't need to do those simulations. So my training is probably more based around mileage. Like I like to build the mileage up. So kind of 5 to 6 weeks out, I'll do a run anywhere between like 80 to 160 K's or like 50 to 100 miles. Sometimes if there's a race around that time that lines up, I'll use the race as a training run. or if there's no race, I've. Yeah, I've just gone running like 100 K's from home and got my wife to pick me up somewhere like 100 K's away or something like that. and she can meet me along the way and help with resupplies and stuff like that. So yeah, I think that the mileage is a big part of it, but it's like I do like one, probably one speed session a week in one specific hill session. But the rest of my runs are all done at a relatively easy pace. I make sure I include a bit of walking in there as well, whether that's just going for A5K fast walk or doing like run walk intervals with my longer runs, because I think that's something that's overlooked as well. Like everyone focuses on the running, but there's so much walking in ultras and particularly in backyard ultras. if you're not training those walking muscles, then you're going to run into problems when you start walking a lot in, in the event. So, yeah, I think that's the important part of it as well. Yeah. You hit on one of my passion interests there with the walking or hiking side of things too, because it is one of those things where I think the, the point that people think of as like, where am I going to be struggling? And they think like, I'll be struggling to be able to continue running. So they think, okay, I got to do more running. The way I usually look at it is like if you sort of reverse engineer, you're, you're kind of race expectations and start unpacking. Like realistically based on the pace targets you're going to do and on the course profile. How much of that should be hiking versus running? You end up kind of building out a really long, low intensity interval session. And the way I usually look at it is like there's two things. One is like we do intervals for speed work for a reason, because we can usually tolerate more volume at that goal intensity by doing it that way versus just running straight. so you kind of have maybe some of that going on, but then you also have this whole like idea of just like, well, if I can become a better hiker and I'm, say, hiking 25% of this course, say you improve your hiking ability by 5%, well, that's going to be a meaningful improvement when you're spending that inevitable 25% of the time hiking, regardless of whether it's like built in in a structured manner or you end up doing it out of necessity. So I think you're 100% right about that. People sometimes miss that part of the training component is, how do I kind of find that space for it in the training itself? Yeah, And I think especially with the backyards like on, on the, on my slower laps, I could be walking maybe 60 to 70% of the lap, like I could almost I could walk a lap in less than an hour, like 100% walking. It would be a fast walk, and it's probably going to be less efficient than jogging, but it just shows you how much you can actually walk. So when I do these events and I, you know, during the day, I like to take the laps a bit slower. Yeah, it could be around 60 to 70% of the lap is actually walking. and yeah, to finish the lap in like, you know, 50 to 55 minutes. so yeah, I think yeah, it's just if you're not, if your body's not used to walking. Yeah. You're suddenly using these different muscles and tendons and stuff that don't get used when you're running. And that's where I've run into problems before. Sorry. Excuse me. yeah. Like the tendons in the lower leg, like in the shin, have started to flare up just because I'm putting a load on them that they're not used to having. Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. Like, yeah, you get into like kind of the mechanics and I think we've seen this evolve maybe a little bit more with the like trail running where they look at like I remember kind of distinctly when the conversation should have shifted away from like, oh, I need to target X number of meters or feet of vert per week to prepare for this mountain race to. Oh, I should be targeting the pitches that I'm actually going to see versus some number of kinds of vert per week to kind of target, because that's going to actually be preparing your, your physical mechanics of what they're going to be going through. And it kind of sounds like you have a similar approach with the walking side of things. It's like, yeah, you're going to mechanically move a little differently. You're going to stress things a little bit differently. So even though that can be a relief from the running mechanic, it could pile up to a degree where you could have a limiter there if you're not actually exposing those muscles to that specific mechanic as well. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And, yeah, it's just something that I've, I've learned with experience here, just to put all of my focus into running and nothing into walking at all. And you just think, yeah, well, you walk everywhere every day. Like, you know, you've been walking since you were a toddler. like, how hard can it be? But yeah, you do actually, it's different mechanics. It's different muscles. So yeah, if you want to look at going far in these, these backyards and ultramarathons and, you know, there's going to be a lot of walking in there, then. Yeah. Why wouldn't you focus on that part of it as well. Yeah. That kind of leads me into kind of the strategy with these yards too, because it's you know you have an hour. I mean I think a lot of people listening to this will probably have at least a basic understanding of a backyard ultra. But you know, you have 4.2 miles and you have an hour to finish it, and you have to do another one at the top of every hour. So you, you sort of have this built in determination of like, well, what do I do with that hour? Do I do it fast? Do I do it slowly? When I first heard about a backyard or as I started kind of just running, some thought experience in my mind is like, what would I do with that? And my first thought was like, I'm probably trying to go like maybe 50 to 55 minutes just to minimize going too fast on any given one and have enough time to still take care of myself, but really kind of cut it close enough where I'm not pushing at any point. And then when I talked to Sam Harvey, he was like he shared it with me. He's like, you know, there's a lot more strategy that goes into it, especially when we start getting into these like multiple days and sleep deprivation starts coming in, where you might want to try to do a faster lap or a few faster laps and take some quick little naps in there to try to reset some of that circadian rhythm and just stave off some of that sleep pressure that you're getting in things like that. So do you have just kind of a Rolodex or more or less of different types of lap splits you're going to try to pull from over the course of an event like this to help kind of get your needs when you need them. Or is it pretty intuitive while you're out there? Yeah, no, I definitely have a plan, so I plan it in advance exactly what lap is going to be run at. so I've got like three different pace groups and yeah, depending on what I'm planning on doing during the break is depending on how quick I'll do the lap. So as a general rule, my day laps are fairly slow. So, you know, a quick lap during the day would be probably like 45 minutes and a slow lap would be. Maybe around 52, 53 minutes. so this is more about conserving the body, conserving the energy. When I'm, when I'm out there running the lap. So there's a lot of walking. you know, just slow jogging and. Yeah, just kind of timing it. Yeah, I am coming around. Yeah. That 50 to 53 minute mark. During the night, I'm a lot more locked in. so I'll do faster paces to get more sleep at night. So I'm probably running between 39 minutes and 42 minutes, which will equate to about, you know, 15 minutes late. yeah. It still has a little bit of time to eat. And, you know, I'll get my crew to wake me up three minutes before the start of the next lap. So I've got time to, you know, get my jacket back on and gloves and buff and that sort of thing and have time to actually get to the start line and make sure I don't miss that bell. so yeah, it's, it's very, very strategic in. Yeah. Mapping out what pace I'm going to run and how I'm going to fit that sleep in and, you know, work out what else I need to do during the break. It's all planned out in advance, so I don't need to do any thinking during the race. yeah. Like the more brain power you can use before the race, the less you need to use during the race. And that's just less energy being diverted to your brain, isn't it? Yeah. No, that's spot on. I always think of it as kind of like a physical battery and you have a mental battery. And if you're doing too much cognitive loading during the event, you're going to drain that mental battery faster, and you're less likely to find yourself five days deep into one of these things. I would imagine. So, yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. yeah, I was curious, too, about just how you're strategizing the fueling and hydration side of that. Are you taking care of most of that in between laps during the non-moving time, or are you? And maybe there's variance here, too? Are you thinking, well, some of this stuff I can do while I'm completing the lap and then give myself more time to manage non nutrition related, hydration related stuff when you're during the nonmoving spots. Or I'd be curious kind of how you strategize that. Yeah. So I plan in advance like every lap what I'm going to be eating. I have all my food organized into bags. So my crew just needs to grab like one bag which will cover 12 hours, and we just work our way through that bag and then we get to the next 12 hours. They, you know, grab the next bag, when I'm running the lap. So I'll take a flask, with trail brew, which is like a carbohydrate drink mix so that it looks after my hydration and tops up my calories. And then when I stop during the break, that's when I eat, like, solid food. and then while I'm eating as well, you know, that time also might be used for something else. So I could be eating at the same time that my feet are getting massaged or my feet are getting washed or, you know, my sunscreen is getting put on or something like that. So there is a bit of multitasking involved. but yeah, my crew is pretty, pretty good with making sure, you know, I've got the right food ready in time for when I come in, and then getting the other stuff done that needs to be done, you know, around the nutrition at the same time. What does a crew setup look like for this? Because I can imagine, like, you know, you could have a really rough go and be done within a day or two or maybe not a rough goal. Maybe it's just the way these things work. You find yourself being the last man standing after a day and a half versus, you know, as far as you went at Dead Cow Gully, is there. Do you have a rotation of different people coming in to sort of take shifts and they're sort of a little bit on call, as if they're going to come in at certain points, depending on how long the event goes. Yeah. So I would say, let's say, for example, for Kalgoorlie, I had five people crewing altogether. I had two people who started on day one and they left on Tuesday. So that's day four. I had another person come in on day two and she stayed until the end. And then I had two other people come in on day four and they say to the end as well. So I had five crew, but pretty much just there were three on at one time. And between those three I'd have at least two at a time, while the other while the third person is sleeping. In the early days it's a bit easier to manage with just one crew at a time. But as I get deeper into it and I, you know, I might get a little bit less coherent or there might be more things that need to be done. yeah, I'd like to have at least two people on at a time. But yeah, it just depends on the event and you know, who I've got available. you know, like big world champs, for example, you can only have one query. So we make do by, you know, I'll have, when I went to that last time, my wife crewed for me. And when I was out running the lap, she was sleeping. And then I'd get back and tag team. So I'd wake her up and I'd go down for a sleep, and then she'd wake me up, and I had to go out for the lap and she'd go back down to sleep. So I had to kind of juggle it that way. But, I mean, you can often get other people to jump in and help out as well, like runners who have finished or, you know, crew who their runner has finished and they've, you know, they've still got a bit of time that they can volunteer. So, you know, they might jump in and help. So it's, it can't, it can't be pretty dynamic. But, I generally have a bit of structure going into it of who's going to be crewing at what time and making sure that they're, you know, getting their sleep in certain intervals as well. Yeah. It really opens up the complexity of how you could structure these events if you really wanted to, by just limiting the way crew access is available to run. I mean you could go you could make a race like this where you said you can even have a crew, in which case then it obviously puts a limit on where you're going to get probably just based on you having to manage all that stuff on your own, or certain numbers or even certain numbers of people at any given time. And it kind of does add a little bit of extra attention in terms of how you maybe structure that. So I wonder, as these events get more popular, if we'll see like a more of a standard, I guess we haven't really seen this to too large of a degree in regular ultramarathons, but it would be interesting if they kind of got a framework where it was like, maybe it's bigs, because that one tends to be kind of one of the big focus ones of the year, where a lot of the events start structuring their regulations and things around whatever they have put in place for that one. Yeah. like I've seen some people do it uncrewed. And I've seen some people get quite far. Like getting into the 40s and maybe even 50s. but yeah, for me, like, I think having the crew there, it's just part of the experience. Like you're doing such an epic event and it's good to have, like, close mates there and, or, you know, like, in my case, my wife, my partner too, to share that with. And, yeah, I don't think it'll be as much fun just going and doing it on your own. I mean, sure, you're out there running with other runners and having a chat and all that, but when you have, like, such a good race, you want people there to like who have been a part of, you know, making that happen and to share in that and to have those memories together. And it can be a really good bonding experience. And, you know, they can sometimes see a different side of you because you get a bit, you know, incoherent or a bit delirious and, but yeah, it really is a team sport, I think. Like all the great results that I've had. They're not just my results. They're like, you know, sharing with my crew, like they've been a part of that. and like, I've been on the other side as well. I've been crewing for other people and it is such a rewarding experience. And, yeah. So yeah, some events where I haven't been able to run because, you know, it hasn't fit in with my schedule properly, like where my other races are. It's like I still really want to be involved and crewing is a great way to do that. And, yeah. So it's not really a burden to crew for someone. I think it's, like, a gift. It's like it's such a great experience to be involved in that. Yeah. No doubt you get invested yourself in their success and you feel like you're part of it. So I can imagine it would be hard to leave as a crew, as someone's getting kind of further and further into one of these things. Yeah. they're long enough where there's probably times where someone has to leave because, you know, they got to get back to life. But, it is an interesting kind of dynamic with all of that. So. Yeah. And I'm sure, like, you make really good friends by being a crew or being crewed by someone, even if you didn't know them super well before. But oftentimes, I'm sure it's like your good friends are the ones that are probably out there building that sort of structure with you and getting closer from it. Yeah, definitely. And like the more of these events that you do together, the the better you get to know each other and like, you learn the like little nuances and you know, the way that you like you said and food prepped and, you know, the way you like your feet rubbed and just those little things. And it comes in handy when you've done a few, few of the events together, that you've got people that know you really well. Yeah, yeah. In terms of, like, taking care of yourself like that too is is like foot care is, is that like a pinch point that is one of the top priorities of, okay, I need to make sure I'm doing these certain things because if this area fails, I'm going to it's just a matter of time before it doesn't matter how good my legs feel, or even how bad they feel if I can't move my feet properly, or if I get too many blisters and things like that. You just have a protocol that's keeping your feet from getting too rough. Yeah, definitely. Like your feet are the things that are taking you these hundreds of kilometers. So you need to look after them. And my foot care starts, like, it starts like two weeks before the event. Like I start prepping him every night, you know, I'm going over him with a Pumice Stone to, you know, tone the calluses down and, using squirrel's nut butter, like, massaging that into the feet every night and, you know, leaving that on overnight. so, you know, I want to get it. By the time the event comes around, my feet are in really good condition. and then, yeah, throughout the event, every at least every 12 hours, I'm changing my shoes and socks and washing my feet. you know, if you're just getting tiny bits of dust in there that can accumulate and it can rub and it can cause blisters. So, yeah, like Kalgoorlie just got and it was like every 12 hours I was washing my feet. And then later in the event when I felt my feet were getting dustier, we changed that to like every eight hours or something, like I was doing it more frequently. you know, the foot massages in between. So like, I put elastic laces in my shoes so I can just flick my shoes off really easily. So I'm, like, coming in from a lap, flick the shoes off my cruise. They're massaging my feet, looking after them. And yeah, I got to the end of five days of running and took my shoes and socks off and they were no joke, they looked like they did the same on lap one. There were no blisters. They're a little bit dusty. but, you know, there were no blisters. There's no black toenails. you know, everything just looks great. And if you took a side by side photo of lap one to lap 119, you'd be hard pressed to pick which was which. Yeah. You jogged my memory. That was what you posted, I think, on Instagram before and after the foot picture just showcasing how well your foot management was. I didn't do the before and after pic, but I did. I did like the foot reveal after running 119 hours. Like taking my shoes and socks off and showing what my feet looked like. So that video was up on Instagram and people seem to love those foot videos. They get so many of you. Yeah, but I think a little I think some people might be a little bit disappointed as well. Like they're waiting for me to take my socks off, expecting him to be all blistered and mangled. But they just look perfect. So yeah, well, it's a testament to your approach for sure, because yeah, I can imagine. I mean, I've seen some, I mean, I've seen my own feet look terrible after single day ultras. So the fact that you're able to keep them that well maintained over the course of five days is an impressive feat in and of itself. yeah. Did you have, like, a lot of people, people reaching out to you after that? Just saying, like, hey, what's your protocol? Like, I want to know. Yeah. So I did a video kind of sharing a little bit of the info. But yeah, I do get people messaging me, you know, asking me what socks am I using, what lube am I using, what shoes am I using? You know, what's my foot care routine look like? yeah, all questions like that. So yeah, people do get quite interested about it. Yeah. Well what other kinds of failure points have you found that tend to be things that you're either aware of that you're trying to maintain. or is it just a matter of like at a certain point you just have to be aware that anything can kind of happen and you have to be ready to troubleshoot. Yeah. I think, from what I've seen in other people, sleep is a big one. So I'm quite good at getting to sleep quickly and managing to get, you know, my 15 minutes of sleep each night. And, you know, over the course of, over the course of a night, I could, I could get like two hours of sleep, but every time I go down for like 15 minutes, sometimes I can feel like I've had 2 or 3 hours. So I think I've done quite well at that. But it's where I see people that are coming in at like, you know, 55, 56 minutes. They're not really getting enough time to have any sleep. And if they do it, it might be like 1 or 2 minutes. you see these people deteriorate pretty quickly. So I think an advantage for me is I am able to run faster laps like I've, I do have a pretty decent five k time. so I can, I can run, you know, a 40 minute lap and be quite comfortable at that pace and give myself enough time for sleep. In terms of particular pinch points for me, as I mentioned before about walking, before I started doing that walking training, having those lower leg issues has been an issue. but I haven't had that in my life. 3 or 4, back out ultras. So I think it was Biggs. Biggs. I had a big issue with the leg and, you know, that started hurting in the early 70s. And I was still able to hang on to lap 100. but yeah, I wasn't able to win that event. So that's something where I had that problem happen. And like, how do I stop this happening again? So that's when I, you know, brought in a lot more walking training and stuff like that. but yeah, I think, yeah. So I, I would say yes, sleep and yeah, just muscle fatigue and, and the feet are probably the three biggest ones. But yeah, also as well like when you, when you start losing out on your sleep, then other things start going downhill as well. Like you're not thinking as straight. So then you might not be eating properly because you're not thinking about what you need to eat or you're not getting enough time to eat. so yeah, as soon as one thing starts slipping, then other things. Yeah, it kind of has a roll on effect. Yeah, that was another thing I kind of had to, like, relearn. My thought of this type of event as you and like Harvey Lewis and Sam Harvey and others have really pushed the limits of what we've seen in these was just. My original thought was, okay, this is kind of a cool event where you sort of remove the speed aspect as a really important variable, the way you would see at a traditional endurance event or even some of these single day ultras where, you know, the higher that ceiling is, the more likely you are to be able to, the more tools you probably have to perform, or more mistakes you can maybe make and still kind of maintain a steady clip. But when you start adding that sleep deprivation component to it, you do open up the door to, okay, well, you do have to be a certain level of fast to be able to be continually clipping off these 40 minute yards, 40 ish minute yards and be able to actually, you know, dedicate enough time to sleep to to draw it out that far. So it's just one of those things, like the more pressure we place on these events from a competitive standpoint, the closer we end up getting to just like, okay, there's a there's a component of just being relatively fast that is going to play a pretty big part in in how successful you can ultimately be. Yeah, definitely. I think like, it used to, like when these events weren't going as long, it really was like a great leveler that it took speed out of the equation because you could run a 30 minute lap and it wouldn't matter because you're still starting the same as, you know, you're still starting the next lap, the same as someone who finished in 59 minutes. And you can have people run at that 55 to 59 minute range for a very long time. But yeah, it does get to a point where sleep is important. And all of a sudden, if you're still running 55 minute laps, you're not getting that chance for that sleep. Whereas if you run a 40 minute lap, then you've got a lot more opportunity for sleep. you've also got a bigger margin for error. So if you're running at like 55 minutes, you've only got a five minute margin for error there. And if you start slowing down just a little bit, you know, you're very close to going over that hour. Whereas if you're running 40 minute laps, you can slow down a bit and run 45 minute laps and you're still coming in with plenty of time, you can slow down to 50 minute laps. You've still got ten minutes when you're coming in. and like everyone's. you know, like, their paces are going to be different. And what, what they can run 6.7 K's in comfortably is, is going to be different. And yeah, just because you can get in under an hour, you know that's good. You can finish a lap. But yeah. How much room are you allowing yourself to be able to slow down over the course of 2448, 7 to 2 hours kind of thing? Yeah. When you did Big's the year where this was the one that kind of really got me excited about and thinking a little bit more about some of the real, like, detail oriented things that we've kind of talked about here. Was an event. Did you first of all, maybe did you go into that event thinking like, okay, this is a field where I think I can put up a number as big as you guys did as a group before it whittled down to just one person, where all I think was, there's three of you, or was it 3 or 4 of you that were beyond the world record that day? did you have any preconceived ideas of that being a possibility, or was that just like a really kind of defining thing of like, oh, wow, I just redefined what I'm capable of. Now I need to start thinking about what we can actually take this to with more reps based on this experience. Yeah. So I went into Biggs two years ago, I went in as the world record holder. So I had 120 yards. but I, I no way. My, you know, I didn't think, oh, this means that I'm going to win this event. Like, I knew that there were a lot of strong competitors going to this one and that. Yeah, that this is an event where I would really be pushed, in terms of being able to beat the world record there. Like, I knew that dead Kalgoorlie, where I got the record, was a relatively easy course, like it had a nice, road night course, and the trail course during the day was very runnable. I knew coming into Big's that the day course was a lot more technical and more trip hazards and more single track and stuff like that. So I wasn't sure if this would be a world record breaking course. as it turned out, it was. And, you know, my record was beaten by six by six hours. But yeah, so I ran 100 of that one, and there were still, I think 3 or 4 people left. yeah. So there would have been four people left because I finished as fifth. And yeah, it was just really cool to see that event taken to that level when I like for myself, even though I didn't, you know, it wasn't my day and I didn't have my perfect race. I still learnt a lot from that. And I, you know, as I said before, my leg started hurting. You know, early 70s. And to still get to 100 in that condition, it just shows me what my body is actually capable of. Once I've reached that point, which I think is a breaking point. I can still just continue to push through that. and yeah, to see the world record get broken there and get up to 108. It just kind of makes me realize as well how much more this is, like mental than physical, because yes, that course was a lot more physically demanding. You know, it took out a lot of people. but there's still people. There were still three people who beat the old world record on that course, and they're able to push it to 108. So that was pretty cool to say. Yeah, I should have mentioned that when I asked that question too, was the course difficulty variance from some of these events from one to the next, whether it be the course or just the weather patterns within. Is it something where you think there will be like a standard, of course difficulty that is set, or do you think we'll get to a point where like this gets popular enough, where now all of a sudden we start looking for locations to optimize where the loop is as fast as you can get it. The weather is is as mild as we can tolerate, and we just see how far someone can actually or a group of people can push each other to ones left standing with more optimal conditions versus I mean, even dead, Kalgoorlie probably has aspects to it that could be optimized upon if you actually make that your goal. Yeah. So I don't think we'll ever get a set standard. Like there's just so much variance between the different backyards. You definitely are getting places that are looking for the best course, like especially when it comes to state champs. I think like countries were searching for the best location in their country to put this on so you know they can help their country get as far as possible. but you also see some go the other way, like some will go, okay, let's see how much elevation we can fit into this course and let's, you know, make this really hard. And, you know, like, if people can get to 24 hours on that course, then that's a big deal because it is a challenging one. You know, there's one up in north West WA, which just happened last week, which is, you know, it's in the Pilbara. It's a very hot area. So I ran that one last year and it was just relentlessly hot. There was no shade out of course. The red dirt just, you know, reflects the heat back up into here. even at night, there's like, little reprieve. Like it gets a little bit cooler because you don't have that direct sun. But it was still hot. So there are some courses that just want to have that challenging aspect. because yeah, there's, there's running really far on. On a nice, easy course, but then seeing how much you can push yourself when the conditions aren't ideal, which is just a different level again. Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting point too. Maybe it'll just evolve to where, like, you get these kind of more recognisable events that have their own course records built into it as kind of an aspect from a target standpoint versus it being kind of too much of a comparator, because it's like you're not going to compare like the course record at Western States to the course record at Hardrock or, you know, like one of my times on a track and things like that, because it just becomes incomparable at a certain point. But there's a lot of like, interesting kind of human performance elements within each one of them and themselves. Yeah. I think the biggest factor in a backyard, though, is who else is running that event because, you know, you need two people to do it. So you could get two really strong runners, on a, on a tough course, and they could go a lot further than, you know, two runners who aren't as strong but are on a really crazy easy course with great conditions. So, I think that's the ultimate decision because, yeah, you see that it's like a super tough course, but you've got all the top runners from all around the world competing together, and that's where the world record was set. So yeah, it does. Well, yeah. It comes down to that second last person how far they can push because then yeah, that last last person just does one more lap. Yeah, yeah. And that also brings up an interesting what if too, because on your most recent world record, I believe if I remember correctly, you finished your final lap in somewhere around 30 minutes, which for someone thinking about that, it makes you wonder. Well, there were probably a few laps left in the tank if you were able to do that fast on the final one. So have you thought about, like, where was my limit that day? Had you been able to get matched up to a point where maybe you're the assist versus the winner? Yeah. So like that. Yeah, that last night was 33 minutes. but I knew that was my last lap, so I just kind of gave it everything I had left in the tank. I was feeling really good, and. Yeah, if the event hadn't finished at that point, like I was, I was gearing up to go another day. Like the condition that I felt in like, I've, I still felt like I could go another day and, you know, I hadn't. I hadn't reached that point where, you know, I was broken. And, you know, at that point that I reached Big's backyard, which was, you know, in the early 70s. And I still know that I've got another day beyond that. So. You know, even if I'd run for another day. And then I kind of got to that point, I still feel like I would have had another day running broken, you know, until my body was absolutely done. So, yeah, it's kind of scary to think about how far I could go. it's. But, these events, still, anything could happen. Like, you know, three laps after 119, I could have had a, you know, something could have happened. I could have had something flare up in my leg or had a sharp downward turn, and I might have only lasted another two laps. So you just never know. Like, anything can happen. But yeah, the condition that I was feeling at the end of that race, yeah, I was feeling good for probably at least another day. Yeah. That's the interesting aspect of this too, because to some degree from just a self like determining how much do I have in me versus the competition of being the best on the day or multiple days, I should say at the event if you get the assist. You kind of know like, okay, well that was my limit. And you have that clear distinction because if it wasn't, you would have gone back out and done another lap and stayed in it. So I can almost see this as weird backwards, almost like a sense of satisfaction and assistance sometimes because you're like, well, you know, I don't have to ask any questions at this point. I mean, you could probably still ask questions, but not to the degree that you can when you finish, finish, finish your last lap strong and there's no one left there with you. Yeah. it's kind of it's kind of cool in a way, not knowing what your limit is. It's just like having that, like, unknown, because it just leaves it, like, open for, like, so many possibilities. but the events. So there's been two events where I haven't finished, where I haven't been the last one standing. And both times in those, like, I look back and I'm just like, oh, but maybe I did have another lap in me. Why did I stop there? Like, surely I could have gone one more, like, put me back in that position. I'll do another lap. But you know, at the time when you're running it, you're just like, this is me. I'm absolutely like, I cannot take another step. But on reflection, it's always. No, I probably could have done one more. I just didn't try hard enough. So yeah, it's, But yeah, having finished is the last one standing on quite a few occasions and still feeling fresh at the end. It's cool in a way, thinking that maybe there's not a limit, like there has to be a limit. Right? Like, I can't just run forever. But it's kind of cool in a way, not knowing where that is. Yeah, that's a really interesting way to think about it too. And I wanted to ask you kind of almost a two part question around like the gamesmanship of these things. One is just like during these events is you looking for things in the competition like, okay, that person's starting to crack. And then you start tactically doing things just to maybe let them know, hey, I know you're getting weak. I've got a lot left in me so you could stay out here and suffer for another ten hours and still end up where you are, or you can stop now and get that same result. and then also like is there a multi event tactic here too where I can imagine, like if I'm getting the assist to you and I'm looking at your last lap being 30, I think you said 32 minutes or 33 minutes. I'm kind of in the back of my mind thinking, dang, how many, how many laps did he have left in him? Is like, you sort of start building this like. This mystique about you, is this guy beatable or not? And plant a seed of doubt and maybe your competitors for future events? Yeah. Like I don't really try to get into the mind games like nothing I do is like intentionally trying to psych the opponent out. I just, you know, I'm just focused on doing my thing and being calm and confident while I'm doing it. yeah. Like, and I, I try not to get caught up in how the competition is looking either, because, you know, they can look like rubbish and you can start thinking, oh, you know, they've got 1 or 2 laps left like this will be done soon. And then psychologically, you start wrapping it up in your head thinking, oh, I've only got like 3 or 4 more laps to do here. And then, you know, five laps later when they're still running, you're like, oh, I still got to go out for another lap. You can like, you can already be like have mentally wrapped it up and mentally ready to end. but the event just keeps dragging out. So you're not prepared to go that far. So, Yeah, I. Sometimes it can be hard, but I do. Yeah. Try not to look at the opponent or try to predict how much longer they've got left. like when I was looking at Sam at the end of Kalgoorlie, like he was, he was not looking great. But I'm still saying to my crew, this event can still go on for a while. So let's just, you know, you just follow the plan as per normal. Like, I was running fast laps towards the end, but that's only because that's what it said on my plan. It wasn't trying to. So I came out or something like that. I had my thing that I needed to stick to. you know, if we'd got into the day, you would have seen my laps get slower. And yeah, I just stick to my plan. And I know, like, I know Sam was pretty determined. I know that he'd come in there to do big numbers. He'd been talking about running 150. So when we're only in, like, you know, the 110, 115 area, I knew that he was still wanting to go a lot further than that. yeah. I knew at some point his body would stop him from doing another lap, but I wasn't. I wasn't counting on it being any time soon. Yeah, that's a great point. You can psych yourself out just as easily as you can, psych your opponent out by trying to play too many mind games. So at the end of the day, you have to just put yourself in a position to get as far as you can and then let everything kind of happen that happens and see where that ends up landing at the end of it all. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You just have to focus on your own race. Don't get caught up in what anyone else is doing. Do you think with, like, how far this has got stretched out now and just kind of the way it plays out to where you get someone mentally strong enough to kind of push their body to the limits. Is there any thought or consideration or maybe it's already in place? I'm just ignorant to it. It's just like safety on the course where, you know, at some point someone's going to go out for a lap and just totally pass out and hopefully not die. But you know, you can run that thought experiment of like, you know, could someone run themselves to death on one of these things? Is there any thought behind that or anything like evolution that you think that this event maybe needs to kind of help make sure that worst case scenarios don't become someone dying on one of these things. Yeah, like I do feel sometimes it does have the potential to push someone into that catastrophic failure where, yeah, they could potentially die. There've been multiple times where people have stopped on course, and, you know, someone has had to come out in a car or whatever to pick them up off of the course. So, yeah, I'm kind of like in two minds, like in one side of it. It's really like these events are designed to see how far you can push yourself, and you really want to see what your limit is. See what your body is capable of. but yeah, there is that safety aspect as well. And I don't know, is it just going to take one person who actually doesn't have that off switch in their mind to actually make them stop when they're killing themselves to, yeah, push themselves too far, and then maybe there'll be a reaction to that to implement some sort of rules. I don't know, like it's, it's a very, there's not a lot of rules in these, in these events. I mean, for the most part, people are not pushing themselves to, like, a medical emergency kind of thing. but there is a small percentage of runners who are, you know, needing medical attention after running one of these events or literally running themselves into the ground and having to be scooped off, of course. So. yeah, it might just take one bad event for something to change, but yeah, I don't know. I yeah, I don't know what will happen with that. Yeah. And I think to some degree I think you can maybe look at it as just we, I mean we've had no shortage of ultramarathon events at this point. And I guess kind of almost shockingly you don't really see a lot of deaths happening in them. I mean, there are examples of it, but it's pretty rare. So to some degree it's like, does that tell us that, like the limiter from the human limiter with the mental side of things is just far enough away from that, that it's such a small chance that you have to let people do what they're going to do and put the supports in place that you can manage, and hopefully the sport grows fast enough on that side as it does the competitive side, that we don't end up kind of painting ourselves into. Too bad of a potential negative corner from that sort of thing. But yeah, I think it's essential to think about because it's like all these things when you get to a point of failure. You know, you open yourself up to a lot of situations that maybe wouldn't be ideal at the end of the day. Yeah. Like, yeah, with these events, it's like the human body is equipped with a safety mechanism that when you reach a certain point, it'll physically make you stop because, you know, you don't, you know, your mind's protecting you from that danger. But with these ultramarathons, people are pushing past those limiters. I mean, they're obviously still another limiter at some point, but they're just kind of extending that out. So, you know, first sign of pain, you're not like, oh, you know, I should probably stop because my leg's a bit sore. You're still pushing through until, you know, it reaches a point where it's like, okay, now I physically can't move my leg, I should stop, but then you still get people that still push past that. And so that like, human Limiter is just. Yeah, it's constantly being tested and pushed out further. Whereas yeah, for for your average Joe, as soon as they kind of get that leg pain, it's like, nah, that's it, I'm done, I'll stop. But as ultramarathon as we find ways to push past that and ignore those signals that our brain is sending. and yeah, they might it might just take one person who actually doesn't have that limiter to. Yeah. To to push it too far. Yeah. It's, it's it's all interesting stuff to think about, but, I, I think right, right, right now we're looking at some pretty impressive results from, from you and others in where you're taking this sort of event. So it'll be fun to kind of see how that all progresses. Do you have an event kind of coming up in the, I guess, probably not the near future given what you just did, but down the road that you're thinking, okay, this is going to be the next one I really build up for, well, Big's backyard, championship. So that's in. Three months. a little over three months. So, yeah, that's the next one. And that's. Yeah, the world champs. So, I'd be very surprised if that one doesn't go beyond five days. but yeah, it it. Yeah. I mean, we went to 108 hours two years ago on that course. You know, the world records now 119. there's no reason to think that won't be beaten. yeah. Yeah, we'll be exciting. We have something to look forward to. On the on the backyard side of things coming up soon. And it's it's fun that you were able to break the world record. Kind of in the lead up to build up some momentum to that. So. Ah it's. Is there a do you have any sort of, any thoughts about just how that's going to evolve from not just getting myself physically ready for, but just I'm imagining that events can have a lot of tension on it in terms of just like how that may impact the way these events occur or this event occurs in terms of just how you prepare. Or maybe the way to say it is like, are you going to prepare any differently knowing that that one's probably gonna have a really big spotlight on it now, given just the progression of the event in general as well as like your most recent results. Now my prep will be fairly similar. I mean, I'll probably do a bit more technical trials and stuff in my training because it is quite a technical course. but in terms of my mental preparation and all of that, like, obviously what I've done in, in my recent events is, has worked for me. So I'll continue doing that. you know, it's a very similar space to two years ago when I went into bigs, I went in as the world record holder. I probably didn't have enough experience under my belt then. Yes, I'd done the world record, but I made my next best before that was 76, and that 76 was not pretty to get to that point. and then all my other, you know, runs were all under, you know, around the 50 yards or less. So I think coming into this one, like the last three backyards I've done, have all been really solid. You know, they've all, you know, I've done 81 hours, 96 hours, 119 hours. And each of them I felt really good at the end. So I'm definitely coming in a lot more confident than I did two years ago. Like, I was pretty confident two years ago. But I think I'm more confident now. But, still very aware of who else is going, how challenging it's going to be. and yeah, I'm not, I'm not by no means. I'm not taking it as a given that I'm, I'm going in there, and going to be able to win it. It's definitely going to be a lot of hard work. and I've definitely got a lot of competition there. So I look at Lukasz from Poland, who had the world record before. We just broke it. he ran 116, and looking at his Luke times towards the end, he was running very similar to me. So I'm actually quite excited about running against him, I think. We're both very similar runners and, you know, he was looking as fresh at the end of 116 hours as I was looking at the end of 119 hours. And yeah, for him, the only reason he had to stop is because his assist stopped. So I think putting us two together in the same race, and we're really going to be able to see how far this event can go. and I even wonder sometimes it's like, is it going to get to a point where. We just decide that there is no limit, like, this is just going to keep going and, you know, it just becomes our life. Like if we're managing our sleep and we're managing, you know, our calorie intake and, you know, we're just remaining cognitively aware and, you know, we're not getting blisters or any muscle pains, like, what's going to stop us from just going forever. Like, I mean, I'm going to have to get on a plane at some point and come home and come back to my job. So we can't run forever. But it's kind of an interesting thought experiment. Yeah. No doubt. No doubt. Yeah. There's enough self-preservation techniques that you all have sort of developed over the course of trial and error that it does make you wonder how far one of these could actually go, given the right, the right pressures and things like that. So, do you think this is maybe the last question? Well, I got two more questions, actually, if you don't mind, I one is just kind of like around the promotion of this, whether it be like outside promotion or self-promotion, I'm thinking it's kind of fresh in the mind now because like, Western states just occurred a week and a half ago. And one of the kind of storylines going into that was you got some of the best hundred milers on the trail side of things in the world, all kind of a lot of them convening onto this one event. And, you know, some of them kind of just lay low. They do the training, they don't publish much, and they come out and they just execute and dominate. And there's others that like to build up kind of the business side of things where I'm going to start a YouTube channel and promote this effort. I'm going to call my shot. I don't see a problem with either one. I think it's really personal in terms of what's going to prepare you, or maybe not prepare you for what you're going to try to do on the day. Do you have any personal preference within that, or are we going to see like a 12 week YouTube series of how Phil's preparing for backyards and get a whole inside look of the process? Or are you more like, all right, I'm just going to go do the work. I'll be there in the backyards and you better be ready for me. yeah. I don't get into the YouTube side of things. I do post a bit on Instagram and on my Strava, so I'm quite an open book, like I'm happy to share all of my runs on Strava so people can see how I'm training. and then yeah, Instagram. I, you know, I put up photos and I'll share insights into my training. you know, I don't get yeah, fully into it, like doing a, you know, 12 week training program and, you know, updating every hour kind of thing. but I do like to share a little bit there and, yeah. Like, you know, people ask me questions and stuff on Instagram and I'm happy to share my knowledge. And, but yeah, I still like I just, I still just do my thing. Like, I go out there, I've got my training plan. I'll, I'll follow that. And yeah, if I can share some little insights along the way that might help people with their training or might inspire them a little bit, then yeah, yeah, continue sharing that sort of stuff. A nice perfect medium. I, I gave you a, I gave you two extremes. That's cool. No, I think I'm excited to see how all that plays out. I think it's going to be fun. And like you said, there is that really interesting element of your so reliant upon the competition of previous events when these world records or other competitors and what others had exposed to it, their attempts and things like to really draw that number out. So, I think we see a big number and it'll be fun to watch you be part of that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm looking forward to it. It's gonna be good fun. For the awesome and final. Yeah. Final question is, the longer you all go in this backyard, the closer I get to thinking, man, what would Phil do in a six day run or a six day event? Timed event? Have you given any thought to an event like that where you just see how many miles square kilometers you can stack up in six days without the parameters around stopping and starting every hour? Yeah, definitely. I've, I've given how, like, especially a lot more thought after Kalgoorlie and after feeling that fresh at five days, I was thinking, yeah, six days I could do. No problem. and I think if I did six days, I would approach it very similar to a backyard in terms of sleeping strategy and stuff like that. I mean, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't have to be as strict as on the hour, every hour. I'd have a little bit more leeway there and maybe do a bit more than 6.7 K's an hour. but I think that would be a good way to pace it. I definitely do want to do it. When at some point, It's just a matter of like, fitting all these races I want to do on my calendar. Like there's only so many ultras I can do in a year. but yeah, definitely the six days is something I'd like to give a cracker, and I think I could do really well in that space. I also do love the 24 hour, I've done a few 24 hour races, and I'd like to try and improve in those a bit more. and maybe 48 hours as well. Give 48 hours a crack. So yeah, we'll see how this world champs goes if I, if I do really well at that. And, yeah, it might kind of make me give me the excuse to just take a step back from the back yards for a little bit because I've, you know, would have achieved a lot in that space. And I can now shift my focus to something else. But, if things don't go my way at Biggs and I don't have a great race, I'm probably going to feel like I've got a bit of unfinished business. And, you know, I need to get back there and give it another crack. So, yeah, we'll just wait and see. Let your motivations drive the next decision. That's what I like to hear. So yeah. Yeah. but it is funny I tell people this because we all want to see you do everything, obviously. But at the end of the day, a six day event when you look at just the logistics of getting there, coming back, recovering, planning and then doing the six days, it's like it's more than 2% of your year at that point like that. That's a lot of time to dedicate to one event. And when you add in other life obligations and other race stuff and things like that, you do have to kind of get picky at some point. So yeah. well, let me say though, yeah, at least for the sixth day, you know, when it ends, the backyard, you're just like, you know, I'm planning for, like, you know, 8 or 9 days because I just, I don't know, you know, it probably isn't going to go that far, but it's a possibility, you know? so, yeah, I've just been trying to plan my trip to America and booking flights everywhere. We're booking flights back for, like, you know, after 240 hours after the event started. And I'm like, I hope that's going to be enough. Is that going to be enough? Got one week. Another day. Yeah. So but yeah, we'll yeah. Have to kind of decide. Yeah. A day that we're thinking it's definitely going to be done by and. Yeah. Because you don't want to be finishing the event and then like getting straight on a plane and going home, you probably. Yeah. We might want a bit of time. to do some other things as well, or at least have some time to have a sleep and recover from sleep. Yeah, yeah. No kidding. It would never be as good as it may look to get on that plane right after the event and get back home when you have to actually deal with the actual process of navigating airports and flying internationally and all that stuff. So, yeah. awesome. Well, Phil, it's been great to chat with you and learn a little bit more about you, the backyard stuff and everything else, but it is any place that the listeners can go and find you. I know you're on Instagram. Do you want to share any of that stuff with us? Yeah. So Instagram just fills Ultrarunner and on Strava as well. So just search Phil on Strava. You should be able to find me. And that's the two main places. yeah. I share insights into my training in that. Perfect. Well, I'll definitely link those to the show notes too, so listeners can head over and follow you on Strava and Instagram and watch how you get ready for these things and ultimately perform on event day. Yeah, awesome. Thank you.