Episode 444: WSER 100 | Meghan Canfield: 13 Finishes, 10 top 10

Meghan Canfield has a deep history and love for the WSER 100 Endurance Run, has been a long time friend, and big influence on the ultramarathon community. She joined me to discuss why the WSER 100 is unique, her many experiences with this event, as well as growing with the sport.

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Timestamps/Topics:

00:00:00 Welcome to Human Performance Outliers Podcast

00:01:46 Broken Arrow Trail Series

00:13:22 Solving Challenges in Ultramarathon Preparation

00:19:07 Navigating the Western States Trail Course

00:24:42 Effective Tapering Strategies for Ultra Running

00:30:28 Comparing Training Tolerances: Downhill Running

00:36:45 Race Day Nutrition: Adapting on the Fly

00:42:15 Planning Fluid and Electrolyte Strategy for Races

00:48:00 Testing Methods in Ultramarathon Training

00:59:41 Fueling Strategies of Western States Top Finishers

01:05:00 The Shift to Carbohydrate Focused Nutrition

01:17:02 Exploring the Western States Race

01:22:48 Experiencing Western States: Event vs. Trail

01:28:30 No Favorites this Year at WSER 100?

Episode Transcript:

Meghan, welcome to the podcast. I think we'll have a fun chat here about your career and western states being right around. I'm guessing you're probably still in the area. Yeah, waiting for States day. Yes I am. I am hanging out in Soda Springs, some cabin in the woods. So nice. But yeah, I was at Broken Arrow for three days. Yeah, yeah, I did want to chat to you about that because you were signed up for all three of those races, which. That's such a cool setup the way they have that now. Or it's the week before Western states, and it's, like, different enough from western states to where I mean, there's the world of ultra is so wide ranging that I'm sure there's some crossover, but a lot of it seems like it's like folks that maybe wouldn't necessarily be doing Western states that are focusing on the the events that are there, like the vertical K and things like that. But the timeline is close enough where you kind of get a bunch of the Western states folks and the Broken Arrow folks kind of in the same area at the same time. Or if you're doing one or the other, maybe you show up a week early or stay a week late and just, kind of enjoy like two really cool events on the ultrarunning calendar. Yeah. And now they have the trail con in between. So it's. That's right. Just, Well, Dylan's doing trail gator all week long. You know, just, constantly updating everything. It's pretty fun. Yeah, it's probably electric, even for a week. I'm sure. And voices will be gone. Yeah. yeah. Hopefully you say something for the live broadcast, right? Yeah. Yeah, it was really cool. I've never done a vertical kilometer. We. I guess we can call them an ascent. and I'm looking at Broken Arrow as a three day training camp for myself for TD's that I'm going to do in August. I don't have mountains in Oregon. We have some cascades, but they're not mountains. Even the Sierras are, you know, just a little sister to the Alps. So having an opportunity to just get out some really steep climbs that I don't have to, you know, recon at all. I just follow the markers and follow the crowd because I am, it is not my strength to do steep stuff. So I had the vertical, ascent on Friday and then the 40, six K on Saturday and a 23 K on Sunday. And it's basically the same route over and over. so once you knew it, you could like, yay! Now I know and are like, oh, no, now I know it. Yeah. Yeah. What have I done? But it was really a very well oiled machine. There were, you know, I don't know, a thousand runners altogether maybe, and six events. so something for everyone, really. And I did the Triple Crown, which was the ascent, the 46 K and the 23 K. but there was also another kind of triple crown called the Iron Face. And the first day was like rock climbing with gear, and that looked pretty cool. They had 11 K and 18 K, I think. but the runner experience is really good. It's all about. I mean, everything was just so well dialed. Of course, marking people out on the course to cheer you on and make sure you were safe. yeah. I thought it was really well done. The finish line atmosphere is just a big party. You ring a bell when you cross the finish line, and. And it was very dog friendly. Like, dogs were a big part of the atmosphere in Olympic Valley. It was really cool. But, Yeah. Also, we had a lot of weather. I don't know if you heard about this, but I saw that. Yeah. Was that for the 46 K? That was the 23rd. It was for the 46. So the good news is the people who were in contention for the team and any elite fast people definitely got the 46 K done. The rest of us got stopped at various places depending on where we were when this black cloud rolled in. It was really weird. It started snowing and these teeniest, tiniest little flakes I didn't know I thought that ash because the sun was still shining. I couldn't figure it out. And I went another, I don't know, a quarter mile. And there was a race manager said, yep, y'all got to get in the ski hut and wait. And I was like, the 10th person in there. By the time everyone got off, there were 92 of us in this little ski hut. Oh, wow. Size of a living room. all smelling great, I'm sure, too. Yeah. I don't know. It wasn't. It wasn't bad because it wasn't, like, sweaty, hot out. So, That's good. But it was, I think a couple hours before they called the race, and then another hour before they figured out how we were going to get down. and then yesterday was just perfect. Just beautiful. So there were only, like, I think only eight women in the Triple Crown who finished on day two, so that limited that bit. but and the day before, on Friday, there was high wind advisory, so they shortened the vertical ascent to just over two miles and 1800 feet of gain because it was, I guess, 70 mile an hour winds up high. Oh, wow. Yeah. So yeah, they kept everyone safe. They had their plan and they, executed it really well. And, yeah, it was really good. That's cool. Yeah, it looks like a fun event. I think the report I saw with, with the 46 K was. So there's been lightning strikes within like five miles of the course. So they were pretty, strict about getting you guys out of the out of the way. That was potential. That was real. Actually, when we were in that hut, the lightning and thunder struck at the same time. So it was like, oh. Oh, really? Yeah. We would have been somebody up a little higher, but you definitely could have gotten zapped. But it was like, okay, glad we're inside. It was like, that's where you're like, all right, I agree with this decision now I did anyway. I am being a race director. I'm never going to ever argue with someone telling me what to do. Yeah, yeah. No, you've probably heard it all. I've heard of you all. All the complaints and all the all the praise and everything in between. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Awesome. So you're doing TDs is what you're kind of targeting this year. Yes I am and it's got 90 miles and 30,000ft of vert and it's Alps. It's different. You know it's all to be out there for three weeks before the race. So I can just be a little more familiar with the type of terrain. I've done Utmb and. I finished, but I would call it a miserable performance because I hadn't really trained properly for. And I've always just trained for Western states, and it's just so different. Yeah, yeah. Well, you're a fun person to talk to about just ultrarunning in general, because you've been in the sport for a while and you haven't just I mean, you're definitely a fixture around Western states, and that was obviously a big focus of yours. as a competitive athlete and just as, as I'm sure, someone who just loves the event itself. But you've also just done such a diverse range of different, different things from the flat, runnable stuff, world championship type stuff, mountain stuff, you know, and, and and now you're, you engage with the sport in ways outside of just running to with, working with USAtf and things like that as a coach. So there's really a limitless number of directions we could go in terms of what you could probably share with us today. but yeah, I think, one of the topics that's probably going to be fun to chat with you about a little bit is just maybe your experience with Western states and just kind of the growth of that event kind of things that have changed from when you were, were racing it and, and just kind of get your take on some of that stuff. So I think it might be fun to dive into that, if you don't mind. Sure. I'd love to talk about Western states, like where would I begin? Right. What was the first year you did Western states? 2006. And, I got in the lottery like I was the fourth draw, but the lottery had, you know, 600 people in it. So yeah. Pretty easy. And, you know, I mean, gosh, we have learned so much in what it is almost 19 years ago as a sport. It's just incredible. And, you know, the mistakes you make in your first race. And now I don't think anyone would make the mistakes I made in that first year. just like I didn't take in salt. And, you know, I got all puffy and blistered and, nauseous and all the things, and we didn't even. I don't know if we even said hyponatremia yet. I mean, it was just kind of miserable. And then, you know, the race was still small and I still got a top ten with a, you know, pretty average would be considered a fairly average time these days, so I was lucky, you know, to come back and learn a lot each year, come back, make more mistakes. and hopefully, you know, and I'm sure actually people have learned from our mistakes. And, it's getting to a point now where. And these top athletes, it's like they're just tightening the screws, like, what do I have left that I can actually improve on, as might be five seconds in an aid station? I don't know. But anyway, I got kind of ahead of myself there. Yeah. No, that's great I think. I mean, that's one of the topics I kind of want to talk to you about, just in general, too, is just like, what are like, you know, the western stage is such a good way to look at this because it is it's a big enough spotlight on that event where the incentive to do it right is just going to be a little bit higher, and then it's got the competitive pressure where now you have people getting a lot of resources available to them to solve some of these problems that you were essentially doing trial and error to figure out back, back in oh six when you first did it? I think oh six was one of the really hot years too, wasn't it? It was. It's one of those funny statements like most years are really hot. But that was I think it's maybe now the second hottest since, started. So yeah, that was a bonus. I mean, I went in like, well, I handle heat just fine. I like heat, but. That's just naive, right? Just naive. Yeah. Now, now it's about how do you handle all the different protocols that can keep you from getting too hot? Right. Right. Where am I going to put my ice? And how much am I going to carry? And yes, how much salt am I going to put in between these two aid stations? You know, it's pretty insane. That's a lot. I mean, it's a lot to manage if you really want to be, you know, have the best performance. It's a, it's a, it's a lot of problem solving and staying on top of everything that comes your way. Yeah. Yeah. Do you think ? I mean I guess from oh six till today we're getting close to 20 years. 20 years of just like growth and evolution within the sport to where, you know, there's like sodium, there's nutrition, there's gear. I mean, something I found kind of funny. I think this was maybe last year. There was some topic where online was being chatted about, just like, kind of like what it was like to run a race like Western states before the more modern era. And, you know, there's just so many different things that you wouldn't think of, even down to like a headlamp where, okay, like, if you're going to be in the dark at all, then you're going to need some light. At a certain point, it's like we have way better lighting systems now where there's a time when you literally had like a diesel battery flashlight that you'd carry right to light the path in front of you. yeah. And then, just like the performance nutrition has gone towards like, I mean, I think you still go a long way with a cup of Coca-Cola. Probably. But I mean, you do have a lot better, like, options to maximize, like, your fuel intake and fluid balances. And, and then we get into the world of tech, like super shoes and things like that. to whatever degree they make a big impact on the trails is probably somewhat debatable at least. But I mean, shoe shoe tech in general, I'm sure is much better than it was 20 years ago. So, we do kind of have these like, these like measurements of, like progress where you've got the competitive pressure, which I'm sure draws out faster times in general. But then we also have better equipment, better nutrition and all these sort of things that, and even in the areas where we had decent equipment, just like the utilization of them properly, like like there was electrolytes and stuff back in oh six, but there was just way less information about how to actually engage with them. Right. I actually remember when I did Western Stages, my first hundred miler in 2012, and that was back when they still weighed you at the aid stations to make sure you didn't lose too much. So, like, I mean, we worked with what you had at the time, that seemed like it made sense. And now they realize that maybe that's not the best measurement to kind of assess whether someone is coherent or not. Yeah, yeah. Right? I mean, you could be, kind of out of it, not dehydrated. So it's like. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I definitely I remember I think I actually like, ended up arriving at the finish line the same way as my, my way in, which was maybe a little bit more than I needed in hindsight, because you probably can tolerate a little bit of dehydration or fluid loss versus what I was probably chasing that day, although 2012 was the cold year. So that's right. Yeah, I probably didn't have as much fluid loss as what you would typically have at that event. Yeah. I remember arguing with an aid station captain at one of the aid stations about my weight. It was 2010, and I was actually in second place at alt, and I, and I just got into second place, so I was, like, wanting to go and. Right. Anxious. Yeah. Yeah. And I got on the scale and I can't remember if I was up or down, I would. Yeah. One or the other. And it's like actually it was kind of I was kind of rude to the aid station captain. I'm like, I feel fine. I just came in second place. Now I need to go and, well, please let me go. And I don't know, I seemed pretty, you know, with it you let me go. Yeah, but yeah, it was a good thing to get rid of that because. I mean, we're all just one pooping pee away from being up or, you know, below or above and, or what if you just ate a bunch and the way it would, you know, encourage people to do things to trick the scale, right. It's like either drinking a whole bunch before you get in, or going to the bathroom before you get in, or taking this article of clothing, you know, all these things that just added stress that was not really beneficial. Yeah. Yeah. How many times have you done Western states now? I have 13 finishes. 12 of them were sub 24, ten of them were top ten. And the last one I did was on the Silver Legend ticket. I was awarded, over 60 years old and I, I, I would have liked to have broken 24, but it was post Covid post moving back to Oregon and I just didn't do the proper training. Just sort of. It was hard, I don't know. I think it was hard for a lot of people after Covid to kind of get back into the groove. I remember like, oh, I can sign up for races now. Huh? Yeah. Like, So, I would like another shot at in my 60s to see if I can get a sub 24. I think that'd be cool. but, yeah, I've, And when I lived down here, I lived here for eight years in, in. Cool. And, I call it my eight years of Western Streets training camp. I just loved being down here and just being out on the trails and just knowing the course so well, you know, it's a pretty, perfect place to live if you want to do well at this race. Yeah. Yeah. You definitely get all sorts of course recon and really prep yourself for some of those, those tricky spots. And I, I always think of Western states as kind of an interesting course because when you get into the world of trail running, there's like there's more like scenic courses out there where it's like, okay, this is just a beautiful course that's like, I can't do this anywhere else. I have to be here to really experience this. But like, it's pretty unique. I think when you have a race like Western states, where the skill sets required for the different sections of it can be are pretty drastically different, where like, the skill set that's going to be good in the high country is going to be different than the skill set, than some of the skill sets that you need or the developments that you need for being in the canyons when it's really hot, where, you know, I always get a kick out of that. They have like the fire and ice years where it's like there's snow up in the high country and it's blazing hot in the canyons, like you can experience both those ends of the spectrum within a few hours of one another. Yeah. And then, yeah, and then you get to Forest Hill and it's like a lot more runnable there. And so it's like from a just like for someone who's just interested in just kind of like training methods and like building like a, a running. A running tolerance. I guess that's going to be more specific to the task at hand. It's really hard to really pin down where you want to kind of do those things for a course like Western States, because there's a little give and take there. Yeah. It's like, yeah, how do you, sort of accentuate the things that you're really good at, but you don't want to completely neglect. You want to train the stuff that that your weakness is, but you don't want to put too much in that. Because how much of the race are you going to use those weak spots? Honestly, you really need to be able to run. You really need to be able to run a mile. mile. yeah. 60. When you get to Forest Hill, you want to be able to run the rest of the way. I've never really nailed that, you know? so, that's where the running starts is Forest Hill. yeah. Yeah, I find that really interesting, too, because there's kind of, there's sort of like to get to your point where, like the strengths and weaknesses, it's like you, let's say, like your weakness is the canyons and your strength is the runnable stuff. It's like, yeah, you want you would think like, okay, I just got to get to Forest Hill where my strengths can come alive. But if your weakness is on the climbs, in a sense in the canyons or your tolerance to heat or such that you arrive at Forest Hill like anyone knows, like you can always take a skill set away. You can always make a strength of weakness if you. Yeah, if you put yourself in the right position or back yourself into the corner enough. Yeah. And I always wonder about that with Western states. It's like how or like how much of an impact could it be to be to like, not be ready enough for those first two sections? Yeah. So that you're there, ready to lean on your strength and where that balance is. And yeah, no, my thought is usually like, if you have a weakness, you're probably better off, trying to work that up a little bit earlier on in the training so that when you get later in the training, you're able to, like, really lean into some of your strengths a little bit more. I'd be curious if you like how your view changed with that over the years that you did it, or was that an evolution at all? Or I don't think I got too particular. I'm decent at most of it. I think that, One of the most important skill sets. Really, it is downhill running, because you can really wreck your race if you've not got quads that handle those descents into the canyons. I think even more than the heat of the canyons. It's that descending and all that eccentric contracting. And that's where I think you can really trash your legs and get in a lot of trouble. And then you get to Forest Hill and it's like, hmm, I guess I'm going for a walk, you know? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's and it's not. I think it'd be hard to do if you live where it's flat, figuring out how you're going to train for downhill when you live where it's flat can be, I'm sure, really hard. It might involve going up and down stairs and, you know, tall buildings or something like that with a weighted vest, but it can be done. and I think I would say that the most important thing to train for Western states is the downhill. Yeah. No, I think I would agree. I mean, when I did it, I was coming from Wisconsin. So I had that scenario where I had a lot of flat running in my back pocket, but I had very little experience doing long continuous downhill running and things like that. And I went out just early enough where I got on like 70 miles of the course, but it was pretty tight, like basically the weekend before. Wow. So it was. Yeah, I was sort of in the spot where it was like, what's the risk reward here? Because I think ideally I probably would have done that maybe two weeks or even three weeks prior. But, you know, getting out there, you know, I had to follow the timeline I had available to. So I was like, well, I think I probably improve upon my finishing time if I'm able to get some experience on the course versus going in completely blind, and then also assuming that I'm going to be able to tolerate the downhill side of the stuff. So, yeah, skeletal muscle stuff is maybe a little bit interesting. What are your thoughts on this too, because I think when I first started ultrarunning, we followed like maybe a little more of a traditional taper. whereas I think we're probably seeing more now. We're able to maybe keep a longer session, and you probably don't want to be doing 70 miles of the trail necessarily the weekend prior. But, you know, to some degree, I think we're seeing more people do a little stretching out their long run, maybe a little bit further. And as long as they're padding that with a little more rest and recovery in those final weeks, it's it's maybe like kind of a similar approach to what you would see with other tapers, where you don't want to remove the aspect that's most important, but you also want to make sure you're giving your body enough extra recovery so that you're you're not going in fatigue the way you would be after, like a training block. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that's true. you know, the gains made by a taper. Might be only, you know, 2 or 3% in performance, which at the pointy end of the stick does matter. so, you know, that's, I'm sure, very nuanced. And it totally depends on the athlete. but the further away you get from those high performances, the benefit of a big taper is probably not that great. So, you know, as much as you can keep, you know, stressing and recovering, I think it's going to, you know, keeping that volume up is probably going to help you to finish. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you get too far away from it too then you also start running into some issues potentially with like oh I haven't like eccentrically loaded my quads in a couple of weeks and then you're probably gonna. Yeah I've seen that happen a little bit. I've seen that happen where, you know, someone like maybe four weeks out doesn't have done any more downhill running and they paid for it on race day. I used to do a, a, workout with Craig Thornley and our buddies in Eugene when. When we all lived in Oregon. It's an out and back trail called Rooster Rock. And we get, what is it, like 4000 ft in 11 miles? And, we did it for the downhill, and we did it two weeks out from western states, and we were all sore for, you know, three, 4 or 5 days afterward. But it was like that last little bit of spicing up the quads. And then our quads would be solid for Western states. Yeah, I've been doing that one now for, you're back out there. I am, and what my, my dream was always to be. I want to do Rooster Rock one day and not be sore. And I have achieved that because I've been going out every week to do it. Yeah. And I'm not sore from doing Broken Arrow. So I'm pretty. Pretty awesome. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're in a good spot then. That's awesome. Yeah. Ideally you can kind of micro stress your way up and you don't have to be like too destroyed. I think people sometimes see that. I think with the training camp with Western states where you can get on a huge chunk of the course and a lot of the downhill side of it, and then, you know, you kind of come to a realization sometimes I think after that weekend of like, oh, you know what? There's maybe some work to be done on the downhill running yet. And yeah, you kind of have a few more opportunities after that to like, if you really assume you live in an area where you have access to that, where if it's if it's looking a little bit iffy, you can get a few more stimulus in and and catch that up. But yeah, to the original point, I think you're right about that. I think that's a pretty big component to Western states is how your, your quads kind of hold up through those sections and. Yeah, and things like that. do you do you. I, I know you coach and stuff like so I'm guessing you've worked with people doing Western states that are from more flat areas. Is there a strategy that you like to use to kind of help at least, minimize some of the potential downsides of having to run downhill at the course and not necessarily be able to do that in their training. Yeah, I, I haven't really had too many, if any, Flatlanders, I haven't. I don't think I've coached any flatlanders. Some have more just rolling hills and we've, I think I've encouraged them to, you know, do some downhill stuff with a weighted vest because they have short, short stints. I know people there are some treadmills that will go do depending on I mean, that's again, that's a chunk of change if you're gonna, you know, kind of new Western states. I'm going to buy this big fancy treadmill so I can run downhill. Right. It's kind of hard. but I would encourage people if I had someone that was Flatlanders to find, a tall staircase, you know, like a, you know, a commercial building. If you can go in and do some repeats downstairs with the weighted vest, take the elevator back up, you know, or do both. but I would encourage them to do anything they could to get those eccentrics fired up on a continuous basis. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what Nicole actually did when she was living in Dallas and she was in Western states. She would go to the stairwells and run up. I don't think she went as far as a weighted vest, but she definitely went down or used that as an option. It's always interesting to me too, because it's like there's the training aspect of it. And I also think there's going to be some variance from one individual to the next. And it's probably like the gate to some degree, where Nicole and I can kind of do similar training inputs. And like her tolerance of downhill running is noticeably better than mine. Is it? So like we would go, well, yeah, we'll go and we'll do a similar route. And like, she won't be any worse for the next day. And I'll be like, oh, I definitely feel that in my quads. And yeah, that's a good point though. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it's interesting stuff with that endpoint. But yeah, I want to talk to you a little bit about nutrition too. over the years that you did it, was there a lot of evolution and kind of how people were fueling Western states from. So maybe I should have asked you this first, like, what was the last year you did Western States or the most recent, I should say 2022. So three years ago. Yeah. Pretty recent. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So what were you eating back in oh six versus what were you eating in 2022? In 06I remember distinctly making a bunch of avocado and cheese sandwiches the night before the race for my crew to give to me, and I can't tell you how many of them I threw away. I just, like, I felt so, like, guilty about. Here's my crew handing me these sandwiches and I'm like, thank you. And I stuff them in my bag and, like, throw them away at the next aid station because I couldn't eat them. I was in that race, you know, I did. I drank too much water and, Too little of anything else until I got sorted at about halfway through the race when someone said, you need to take some salt, and gave me some salty, salty, salty broth and that that turn of things around for me, and I honestly can't remember like what it might have been. The drink accelerated. Do you remember that one? Okay. yeah, I think that was one of them. I don't know what the race was providing that back then. I don't think good existed in 2006. I'm not sure when they, as a company, when they came around and they've been, you know, they've been a sponsor for the race for years. So, yeah, I've, I've done a lot of different things, but mostly I've done sports nutrition in the form of a gel and or the electrolyte drink. I have learned over and over again. I'm just not one to eat solid foods while racing. It's just I will fail at getting enough calories in because I just don't want to chew food. I just sit in my mouth. And as much as it's a good practice to, you know, have food in your hand and water in your bottle, I will just get way behind. So I get a lot of my calories in liquid form. And maybe because I'm generally not a very hot runner, I don't sweat very much. That tends to work for me. There are times where I will go with a bottle with electrolyte and carbohydrate in it and a bottle of just water if it's particularly hot, because you do get that, you know, you just need some water sometimes. so yeah, I've just sort of gone with the flow of whatever, whatever products they have at aid stations. I don't have a queasy stomach, pretty much. and yeah, maybe I fail at getting enough nutrition in, but at least I don't throw up and I make it to the finish line. Yeah, well, I mean, there is that balance too, I think. Like, I mean, we you, we see the recommendations of, like what you should be eating during a 100 mile race between solids and liquids and things like that. And, you know, they're usually recommending that you have some, some variance there. But, you know, that might just be a good starting point for people to play around with. But I also think there's people like yourself where it's just like, hey, I can tolerate a decent amount of liquid gel type stuff, and I don't tolerate a lot of solid stuff. So I need to, at the very least, skew my ratios heavily towards the more sports product type things. Whereas, you know, you might have someone else who's maybe on the opposite side of that spectrum and they're going to do a little more solids. I also think it's like it's it's a difference between, you know, when we get to like the range of whoever's finishing in the front versus in the back, you almost have two different events at that point from from an intensity standpoint, where, you know, you you take me running as hard as I can for 14 hours versus me running and probably walking to some degree as fast as I can for 30 hours. And I'm going to eat differently. And, you know, it's, so I think there's probably some of that to where, you know, when you were in your peak finishing in the top ten and things like that, you're moving quick enough where it may just be that liquids and gels were, were something that needed to be the, the, the thing to, to take in to get what you needed. Yeah. Yeah, that's for sure. and you know, over time we all become, we're all pretty darn good at fat metabolism. So I think, you know, honestly, staying hydrated is so important. And it's a shame that so many people DON'T do it because of, you know, stomach issues, GI issues, and throwing up. But it's we have the ability to keep moving forward for a long time just by our fat metabolism. but we can get ourselves in a whole lot of trouble if we're dehydrated. So it's it's, you know, just. I rely on that if if I get behind or if I don't feel well, it's like, well, I can go a long way and I'll slow down, and that's okay. As long as I don't get sick, you know? Yeah. I think it's I think it's just important to kind of keep grounded and keep moving forward and not get panicked about, oh my God, I only got in, you know, 90g of carbs that last, you know, hour. And, you know, it's nice to have a range and have a plan. But during the race, if you want to finish, keep your mind open. And I think it's okay to try something new on race day when it comes to nutrition, because you're planning just might fall apart. But hopefully that's not a reason to quit you know. Yeah. No I think I mean you hit on some great points. I think it's yeah. There's there, there's the a value in trying to get enough food in but at what cost. So like I, I had Pam Smith on a couple of years ago when we were talking about this and she said like, you know, she just got good at paying attention to kind of how her body was processing the inputs where, you know, some days she was taking in like the top end of what she thought she could tolerate, and it was going down smooth and she just kept doing it. And then there were days where, for whatever reason, maybe it was a little warmer, or her stomach was a little upset and she'd start to feel it, maybe bottlenecking a little bit. And that was her sign. Okay. I'm not going to force more on top of that because it's just not going to end well. Right? And it would settle down eventually. And then she could kind of resume and you just do the best you can within what your body's giving you from that. And yeah, avoiding the situation where you're, you know, puking on the side of the trail nonstop or, rushing to the bathroom like every couple of miles, you know, you you're you're going to be moving a little bit quicker, just burning, burning fat in a lot of cases for a while. If you have to kind of keep that scenario off the table. So yeah. I think you're right about that. And, and you did say something that I find really interesting because we put a lot of focus. I would think we were putting a lot more focus on hydration now than we maybe had originally. but we also continue to put a ton of emphasis on nutrition, which is good. But I think to some degree we should always be thinking hydration first with these things because. The way I describe it is like if you do a race like Western states, you're probably gonna finish at least slightly dehydrated. So no matter how good of a job you do just with processing limits and things like that, I'm sure there's going to be some ranges where people with higher sweat loss and stuff like that might have a harder time doing that, where someone really low might be able to actually, like, execute like perfect hydration. But most people are going to be probably slightly under what they could. They could probably or they're going to be slightly dehydrated in their best case scenario. So if we're taking a scenario where perfection isn't even really on the table, you really need to minimize the mistakes you make within that one. And when you just look at the downstream effects of dehydration, it's sort of like a force multiplier for negatives on other things too, where you get dehydrated and now all of a sudden your nutrition isn't going down as well. So like, I always wonder when people say, oh, I was doing this fueling strategies, working great. And then all of a sudden it just stopped working. I don't know why I didn't change anything so well, maybe you got dehydrated and what was working when you were hydrated just doesn't work for you when you're dehydrated. Yeah. And so I usually try to lead with hydration where it's like you could probably get away with less than you. You think you can if you absolutely have to. Might not be perfect. It might not be your best day ever. But it's going to be better than nothing because you can't keep anything down. And yeah, I think you're right. Hydration plays a huge role there. Right, right. And then there's the fine, fine line of over drinking and being sure that you're not drinking a lot of plain water, because that leads to really serious problems too. So I think, yeah, people just try to be educated as much as they can about symptoms to watch out for. And staying hydrated, but not over hydrated. keeping up your electrolytes. And just kind of get out of your head sometimes. I mean, I feel like the protocols can be so elaborate and intense, and it's just like, just calm the fuck down and just. Yeah, just just eat and drink and move and enjoy the scenery. But try not to get yourself too wrapped up and. And, in a frenzy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I like the recommendation of nibble and sipping because it's like, if you're thinking about just doing that and you're kind of consistent with it, you're going to probably get pretty close to landing where you need to. Yeah. And by doing that, you're probably going to be less likely to invite something that's like unwelcoming by eating too much and then having a stomach ache or going a long period of time without eating, and then feeling like you have to leave it or not eat a lot, and then have that sort of like contrasting negatives start interacting with one another. So yeah, but there's something else you said that I wanted to. Oh yeah. For like, for hydration stuff like, I think you can like what I'll usually have people do. I'd be curious. What if you do anything similar to this with hot weather races is I'll have them do, like a fluid. Just do like a fluid loss test where they run for an hour, weigh themselves before and after. And ideally, if we can capture, like one of those in, like, cooler temps, moderate temps, and hot temps, we can sort of get at least a ballpark figure of where their fluid loss rates are across, like different weather ranges, and then we can at least start kind of getting a plan put together of like, well, what should you expect to maybe need to bring from one aid station to the next, whether you actually end up taking in all of that or not? Can be a little bit more decision making on the day based on how you're feeling and how your body's responding. But at least we kind of have some planning so that you don't feel like you're totally off in no man's land with no no idea what to do. But you're also not so strict about it that, you know, you feel like, oh, if I, I got 16oz instead of 20oz, my race is over, which is probably not going to be the case. the harder one, I think, though. Yeah. The harder one I think is sometimes the electrolyte loss side of it, because that's such a wide range from one person to the next. And other than getting it tested. I mean, you can go by population level averages of around, like, I think it's 950 mg/l of lost sweat. But then, you know, you get some people way on the low end that are maybe 2 to 300mg. Then you get people that are way on the high end that are two plus grams. And like I'm curious if you have anything that you do with your clients and people you talk to that are interested about, like looking for symptoms that they see, maybe in training that would suggest whether they're, you know, being a little too light on their electrolytes or too heavy on their electrolytes. I do have one athlete who I'm working with right now because he's had some, Bad experiences in heat. So that was one thing I just recommended we should. If you can't get a fancy, you know, sweat test, then at least let's do the way before and way after. And how much did you know? Consume and see if we can't dial that down for him. All my other athletes seem to be pretty. Pretty well regulated. I haven't had one. Hasn't been an issue yet, but it is amazing the tools that are available to to test these things. You know, what is the sweat lab or the salt salt lab or whatever? It is cool and it's good to have options for more information. and at the same time, still try to figure out a little bit on your own. You know, not get too reliant on technology all the time. you know, if you, if you feel a certain way, well let's try some things and see what, see what happens. but yeah, I mean I, I have a. A friend who's coming to Western states. He's one of the elder statesmen. Ed Wilson, he's 70. He's one of them. There's six. I think there's 570 year olds and 80 year olds in Western states this year. But Ed Wilson is 70, and he was the first person I met in the Western States. And that was 2005. And that was my introduction to the race. Well, he got back in this year and it's been 20 years since he's run it, and he is a very heavy sweater and loses a lot of salt. So he has been going to a sweat lab at U of O and getting his sweat rate and salt rate, salt loss rates dialed down to. So I'll be anxious to see how well that plays out for him. because yeah, he's a very salty sweater and he's 70 years old. So a couple strikes against you, you're trying 100 miles. yeah, I think it's a cool thing to be able to, to try to figure out, I don't know, how do you know how much those cost to go to a lab and get a. That's a good question. I know, like I had Andy Blue on the podcast a couple of years ago and he likes Precision Nutrition, which has gotten pretty popular. they kind of got their foundation in that where they have these, it's like a little suitcase looking device, almost, where you pop it open and it's got like all the machinery required. And they just put this little thing on, on your I think it's on your forearm. And then it just draws like it just needs a tiny amount of sweat because it's just looking for the, you know, the, the, the ratio essentially. And then they put it in there in like 30 less than 30 minutes. You've got a report of just what your electrolyte losses are. So I had like and he's got, it's gotten popular enough where they've got people that I think you can, like, apply to become a tester, because it's not anything super complicated. You have to have a medical degree or something like that. So then I think you can actually go on there and apply and get it, you know, go through the protocol and then purchase your little testing kit. And then, I've seen people do that at specialty shop running stores where they'll be doing a group run and then they'll, like, set up there and they can test people. And, I wish I remembered what they were charging. I think it's just like a I think it's like a few hundred bucks and it's like 3 or 400 bucks. Maybe it might be cheaper than I could be. Wrong. but yeah, you could also probably. I bet a lot of universities have that service that you could do where I think people don't always think of universities as options, but if you want to get a metabolic cart test done, you can oftentimes go to universities. And so you've got one nearby. and then you can, you can ask about the sweat test because it sounds like Ed was going to U of O. So they clearly got the set up for it. yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it's just it is one of those things where, I usually tell people just first check precisions website because they've got like a Cal or a, like a map on there of where all their different testing people are. because what I found with some coaching clients who are really interested in too is like, you know, that's a business for those people. So they're willing to travel if they can get some tests or deliver some tests. So it might even be just like, hey, if there's someone like within maybe a couple of hours of where you live, go chat with your specialty shop and say, hey, maybe we should see if this guy was willing to come in and offer this at one of our group runs, and then if they can get a handful people to sign up, might be worth their time. Yeah. There's a bunch of other options now too. Or, I think it's like a wearable one where you wear it and it can tell you and I know the first generation of those had some like it was a little like is maybe not quite as accurate as you'd really want it to be. but I'm sure I mean, they're at least on their second generation now and maybe, maybe further. So it's possible that that has gotten a little more accurate than it originally was. So I think we're getting closer to kind of even removing some of that friction of having to find someone with a testing kit. Yeah, yeah, order it and do it yourself. And that's so cool. But I mean, it's like continuous glucose monitoring. Yep. The lactate threshold, testing strips. And it's like, well, I'm just like, little biology experiments out, right? Yeah, yeah. You wonder, like, when are we going to get the one you just plug on to your, your, your forearm or wherever. And then it tells you like, yeah, like your, your lactate, your sodium loss, your hydration level, your fat acts like everything you could imagine wanting to know in the just eliminate all the decision making. So some of that feels almost less fun to me though, too. It's like, I love data and I love optimization and stuff like that. Or I probably wouldn't have found myself on 400 meter tracks, running, running milers. But to some degree, I also really like the just the unknown that we sometimes have to and like. And this is probably an interesting topic with you too, just because you've probably seen a lot of this since your start of your ultra career. So today is just, you know, when I first did ultras, it was like there was just a ton of just like just asking people what they did. Yeah. And now there's still that element. Yeah. I think that always is probably lingering around to some degree because people get excited about that sort of a process. But we also do know a lot more now. So but, but I think a lot of the stuff we know also is like we're extrapolating pretty far forward when we get into these hundred mile races. And in Western states, it's like it was some things. It's like, well, how does our fat and carbohydrate fat metabolism shift by hour 15 versus what we see in a lab over a single treadmill test and things like that? And how does that drive your needs and fueling or change and things like that. So it's kind of to your point earlier like it's probably good to have some information. So you're not just throwing things up against the wall all day long, but you're also aware that, hey, if this isn't working, you know I can to some degree trust my intuition and not be hammering away at anything that's broken. Yeah, I would. I would strongly encourage people to keep their intuition in shape, to not ignore, not ignore what they're feeling based upon what their watch is telling them. You know, it's easy to do, you know, if it's really hot out. Your heart rate is going to be high because it's hot and you're trying to dissipate. Heat doesn't mean that you're working, that you should be, you know, working that hard. You know, it's coming up because it's hot. So you don't need to try to push a pace because, well, my heart rate is this. I mean, I should be going, you know, eight minute pace, not ten minute pace. What's wrong? I need to work harder. You know, it's like that's where you get in trouble with that kind of information. You need to think on your own, you know, talk to yourself a little bit. Does this make sense? And how do I feel? And only you know you know. So yeah. Yeah, yeah, it gets interesting. I mean, I think there's also like, like some signs that you can kind of look for to and when when someone is having issues to where I've had a few coaching clients in the past where like, well, we'll start with the recommendations for electrolyte needs based on your, your sweat loss totals from like just doing those tests of weighing themselves before and after. And then, you know, we find that, you know, that was maybe a little low for them. And there's usually some reason to believe that they're the type of person where when they finish a run, they've got like white salt streaks on their clothing versus the person who never has that. It's like, you know, you could be two ends of the spectrum there with that experience or another one I really like sometimes, too, if we suspect that you're not getting enough electrolytes is after like a run that's a little bit longer in the heat. It's like if you sit down and stand up, do you feel like it's a little, you get a little sense of lightheadedness, or maybe see some stars for a brief period of time, or just feel like your response is a little slow versus or just like another one that I find interesting. And to some degree, it's like it could just be dehydration in general too. So you have to make sure you're checking that box first. But like you finish a run, like what I find is like if I neglect electrolytes, I do a lot of long enough runs in the heat. It's like by the end of the day before if then where I start feeling kind of back to normal, where in most cases I should be able to tolerate a pretty long run in the first half of the day and, you know, get some good food in and can continue to drink, and I shouldn't feel like I'm not able to kind of go about my normal day with without a bunch of trouble. So when I start noticing things like that where it's just like, oh yeah, I'm working noticeably more difficult just to do basic tasks after these sessions. Then, you know, I think those are usually some signs of like, okay, maybe we need to optimize a little bit more with things like electrolytes or fuel to some degree to, to. Yeah. Yeah yeah for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Teaching people to use the information that they get, that's like real numbers. But how do you feel under those numbers? And so you can, I don't know, reverse engineer it a little bit. Yeah. Not always have to have data in front of you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Have you had a lot of your coaching clients or just in general people getting curious about hitting really high amounts of carbohydrates during, during races? I know that's just a topic in the ultra running well in the endurance space in general where we're. I always get excited about these things to some degree for, for better or worse, where it's like, all right, we've got these recommendations. And then but these tour de France athletes are doing this much more or. Yeah, but they're not pounding the pavement. They're not jostling. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah yeah, yeah I, I, there was a paper that came out, was it Issn? Position paper on nutrition in female athletes, and Stacy Sims was the head author. But there was a list of authors because there was a, you know, metadata analysis. Really? It's interesting that in general, women are not processing substantially more than 60g of carbohydrate per hour. So I kind of keep that in mind if an athlete, you know, wants to push that. But I do have an athlete who just on her own is like she's pushing 90g per hour and she's succeeding with it just fine. So I'm not going to tell her not to do that, you know what I mean? Right. but I do think that if 60g works well, I put 90 in, you know. Right. Yeah. There's 90 going to work better than 60, I don't know, but if 60 is working and you're feeling good, I don't think that just because you, you know, it's an option or people are doing it, you know, we're going to crowdsource a bunch. it's one of those, you know, if it's not broken, don't fix it. yeah. So again, it's all these trends as they happen, people get very excited and get on the bandwagon and they all want to try it. and there's some things I'm an early adopter on and some things I'm more of a late adopter on. And yeah, because I kind of like to wait and see a little bit, where it's going. Yeah. As long as, especially before you start telling all your coaching clients to do it, that's the other side of it. Yeah. And also, you know, yeah, I'm a coach, but I'm not a nutritionist. And I know you know a lot about sports nutrition, but we're going to get really into the weeds. I'm a little hesitant to get out of my lane on some of that. Yeah. Well I mean and in the world of testing too, it's like there's the processing limitations where like your coach and client who's doing well on 90. It's possible that she's just the, an outlier amongst the averages that came up to that 60 number where for whatever reason she's able to take in more and process it thoroughly. versus maybe what the average person should be able to expect to do. But like, I mean, I think there's also like if people are interested in like really digging in and getting getting lab data for stuff, then like getting a metabolic test can be helpful for that to where you can get a good idea of like what your body's doing with your fuel sources at the different intensities. And then if you know what intensity you're going to target on race day, you can at least be kind of in the ballpark of what you would maybe need versus what you see someone else doing. Yeah. yeah. Yeah. So, so, yeah. And then again, like, obviously you have to have access to that. but, you know, you could also look at it. I've said this a few times on this podcast in the past where it's like, if you just look at kind of population level data, too, it's like most people on a moderate to high carbohydrate diet are going to be about a 5050 split between carbs and fats at their aerobic threshold. Right. So, you know, most people running Western states or any 100 miles or for that matter, are going to be at or below their aerobic threshold. Right. So you can kind of look at workload at that point too, and think of it through the lens of like, well, you know, if I'm covering 5 or 6 mph, let's say, then, you know, I'm looking at maybe a half that workload coming from carbohydrate at most. So you can start getting an idea of where the ceiling maybe is of what you'd want to even entertain. and then follow the Pam Smith approach of if it's bottlenecking probably stop putting stuff in there 100%, 100%. I, I paced a friend last year and, I've paced her before and she's lost her stomach. On two other occasions where I've faced her. And this time, when she started to get nauseous, I said, just stop putting any food in. You can walk on your reserve. And that's what we did. She never threw up. You know, but it's like, yeah, you can throw up and you can reset and then maybe you can go again, but you're going to lose a lot of time if that happens. because it could even involve an app, you know. Yeah. Well, you could get dehydrated by throwing up a ton, too, so. Yeah. Make great. Another problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We kept moving forward and she didn't throw up and she got her finish. You know, low on calories but that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. The other interesting thing that I found was I think this might have been last year at Western States. Actually, I can't remember who did it, but someone took the time to like to reach out to everyone in the top ten and try to get what their fueling strategy was. Oh, wow. And you know, you get a range there to some degree of people who are super diligent where they had a person just tracking every gram, and then you'd have people like, I don't know, I was just eating. Yeah. And we're like. We tracked through 70, and then we just gave up. Yeah. So it was I think they got almost all of the top ten men to at least give them an estimate of what they were doing. And then I think they, they, I think there was a few less of the women that had the data, or responded, I can't remember what exactly the, the, the reasoning was, but it was just interesting to look at what they did collect because it was a pretty there was definitely a trend towards higher where we saw, I think, more people kind of hitting, especially on the men's side, hitting like 100, maybe 110g. but then there were some that were a little bit lower too. There was like, I think there was a couple of women that were 60g. There were a couple scenarios where it was like, I was like 100g, like clockwork through 70, and then I was down to 60 the rest of the way. So, you know, to some of them to some degree, it's like you get into the world of like, hey, take it in while it lasts and then, you know, bleed into your reserves a little bit once you can't anymore. Right, right. Yeah. That's a good strategy. Yeah. So and I mean, that's the other interesting part about that research to wear to the degree that we. What? Like, from what I've seen of the more recent stuff is like when you get like some of these tour de France athletes and cyclists. Oh, and I guess in David Roche, if you want to get into David's, hitting a 150g of carbohydrate per hour is like they're not actually processing that. in the race itself. But there's maybe some value out there in terms of one, they finish that event or that workout and they've essentially had an extra meal or two, maybe in some cases. So they've sort of started that process of refueling and catching up a little quicker. So you think of just compounding that in training. It could be like extra training capacity, faster recovery, that sort of thing. Yeah. And then there's just also like we don't necessarily have a total grip on what the full picture of perceived effort reduction is with the carbohydrate ingestion side of things. So, you know, we like to look at this through the lens of like, like data of like I can process this or this is what I need. But then there's this whole other kind of almost psychological side of things like the actual intake of it. What's it doing from our body's ability to say, hey, go hard versus, man, you're blowing up, slow down. Because that's a, that's a voice in your head that you're going to have to compete with at the later stages of these races, for sure. So yeah, I think all of that's pretty fascinating when you get into some of those strategies. Yeah, it is interesting. Well, then there's also the expense. I mean, yeah, all that fuel is so expensive. Yeah, I don't know. I would like to say I'm going to, you know, just buy the raw materials and make my own right to make my own drink because I think it's really quite inexpensive to do that. but it's, it's, it can be quite limiting to, you know, do all these training runs and try to get that many carbs in. You just spent 20 bucks or 30 bucks or 40 bucks for your run. This is supposed to be a cheap sport. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point, too. It's like. Yeah, like a run with just minimal fueling is going to be cheaper than one with maximum. Although you might eat more afterwards if you're on top of things. But you can eat real food too. True. Yeah. Yeah. I do wonder too, about, like, how as we see people kind of getting more serious about fueling outside of just the race itself, if we'll see just more people like turning to things that are like cheap versions of the sports product where it's like, oh, just, you know, I just grabbed a bag of jelly beans and went with it, right? Versus. Right. You know, because I mean, you do want to be mindful of the different types of carbohydrates to some degree. But, you know, if we're not trying to absolutely maximize versus just do a good job of practicing, you can go a long way with some of those cheaper inputs. Yeah. I mean, just a box of fig bars. You know, it was a lot cheaper than some of those engineered food bars. Yeah, at some point you just need some calories and if it tastes good, go for it. Yeah. Dude was there a point when with your old with your western states I could even be an ultrarunning experience to some degree where you started seeing people be more attentive to that. Or were there people talking back in oh six at Western states about trying to hit certain amounts of grams and. Oh gosh. no, there was I don't think grams of carbohydrate came into the lexicon for quite a while. It was kind of. I feel like there was more emphasis on hydration, and there was a sort of prescription, like, you want to get in. We did ounces back then. Yeah, like 32oz per hour or, you know, it would be like or, you know, two. Yeah, two 16 ounce bottles in an hour. and it was calories. I mean, really the grams of carbohydrate. I feel like it's only been in the last five years where, you know, you look at a package of something, you don't even look at calories. It's like, how many grams of carbohydrates? Yeah. Yeah. so, yeah, it was, it was calories and it was, you know, 2 to 300 calories an hour should be what you try to get. Doesn't matter what they are. and we know that it does matter, but, Yeah. So it was a mind shift for me. And I've only sort of shifted in the last 2 or 3 years, really, I think for carbs, because I always thought, well, if it's got a, if it's a packet of goo and I do three of them in an hour, then that's going to be good. But I wasn't really looking at how many carbs. I was just like, okay, this should work. Yeah. Yeah. I remember, I remember I think this was in 2014. I went out to Western States to cruise and Nick Clark was talking to people beforehand because you know he had been finishing kind of around third or fourth place for a few years. And it was just kind of like he wanted that, like, okay, what do I gotta do to like, jump that and get the win? Yeah. So he came in with a strategy where he was like, I can't remember. I want to say he was like, I'm going to take in 60 gels or something like that. And he's like, I'm going to like squirting him into my water bottle, shaking him up. And I remember at the time thinking, I don't think I've had 60 gels in my life. And, and I mean, he had a terrible digestive issue that year. Yes, I remember I passed him. He was okay. Yeah. Yeah. So he was on a cot. He went the wrong direction. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. You went the wrong direction. But I was thinking about that, because at the time I was like, okay, well, that's just off the table. Like that's not even an option that you should entertain. But now it's just like you wonder about it when you see some of the fueling strategies people are using. If it was like, maybe the strategy was okay, if he had known about just gut training and been practicing, because I'm guessing Nick wasn't going out there on the long runs on the weekends and hammering like, you know, that many equivalent of gels per hour as he was on race day. So it may have just been like, I mean, it also could just be that he at the individual level wasn't going to be able to tolerate that either. But yeah, you think of those stories and you hear about that stuff and you're just like, oh yeah, yeah. Well Magda wine Western states drinking rock trains. That's right. Yeah. It was basically all rock pain right. Yeah I can go I can go a long way on a rock train and I can actually get quite a bit of carbs in on drinking that to a point. But then after a while my stomach will rumble a little bit and I'm like okay, probably too much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Magna was one of the first people I remember that was pretty scientific about it at Western State specifically where there was like. I mean I'm sure there were other people too. But like someone that was like talking about it and that became kind of a bit of part of the storyline. Maybe that was because it was basically all rock that kind of has a nice little kind of flair to it where like it catches your attention. You want to know more because you know, most people are going to have a little more variety, and then you start digging into the actual approach. You're like, oh, okay. I see what she was thinking there. Yeah. but yeah, I do remember that that year. Yeah. Yeah. So have you. I'm guessing you said you're pacing this year. I am crewing and perhaps pacing. The person I'm crewing is from New Zealand, and he brought his son, and his son wants to crew him or wants to pace him from Forest Hill to the finish. And I'm going to be back up in case that turns out to be too big a task for this 18 year old. Yeah, yeah. That'll be a fun experience either way. Yeah. It's such an interesting event from that respect where it's like you have the participants which are like, you know, there's a limit on how many can do it, but then the number of people that show up from a support standpoint, volunteer standpoint, spectators standpoint, media standpoint, it's like it's quite a production at this point. So yeah, it's that that part has just exponentially like the lottery itself. It's just huge and it's exciting. It's fun. The thing that I love about this race is that while we have first timers, almost everybody's a first and only timer now. And the last time I ran it in 2022, going up the escarpment, I was near Erica. Lindland. Erica. Oh, her married name will come to me in a minute. and Casey Licht, we were, yeah, close to each other. And Erica says, hey, Megan, you know, I really enjoy running western states with somebody. Do you want to? You want to hang out and run with me? And I'm like, why not? I mean, I've never purposefully done that, but, why not? And then Casey was like, right in front of us, and the three of us were basically within earshot and eyeshot of each other all the way to Forest Hill. Oh, wow. And that was really incredible because we were three people in between the three of us. When we had 15, we had like 23 finishes with the three of us. Everyone else around us. It was their first time. Almost. So we would say that if you want any advice, you know. Yeah. You're the problem solvers. Yeah, yeah. But what was super great and what I love is we come into an aid station, and the aid station people are the same, like every year. It's these, it's the same community all along the way. So while we have basically strangers running the race, the race itself is still familiar and the people are still that same community. So that part hasn't changed. And I love that because everything else around it has. so yeah, it's it's, it's such a just such a cool event. yeah. It's interesting too, because I think, like, Western states obviously have grown and there's been a lot of change with, just the coverage of it. And, then the big one is just obviously the access to it now is like, you got to pay your dues essentially for maybe a decade if you're going to get in and just be consistent with trying and hope that it happens sooner rather than later. But, in terms of like when I look at the ultra world as a whole, it's like the Western States is sort of saddled with a really interesting kind of need where it wants it. It needs to hold on to some of the reasons why it got popular in the first place, but then also grow with the sport to the degree that it stays relevant within the modern context of it. And it's like with that sort of approach or need, you almost have to have this thing where you make like you make a small change one year or a change, or maybe, maybe it's not small, maybe it's a relatively big change. But you're not like, all right, we're going to do this, this, that, and the other thing. So I just think of like, well, Craig must be processing these things of like, okay, I'm sure like when he first started reading, he was probably like he had a lot of ideas of what he thought would be the vision of what Western states would look like today, but also probably thought like, well, I have to be mindful of which ones I do, when and how I do them. So we don't make this a whole entirely different event overnight to the degree where it loses its value and to the degree where, like if you look back at it, probably in 2006 versus today, it might look like a lot more change. And it probably even felt like over those 20 years from then till now, as you kind of got gradually exposed to some of the growth and the change, I would imagine. Yeah, it's funny, I was just having a conversation with Craig's brother Chris yesterday about this and wondered if Craig and his wildest dreams could have imagined what Western states are today. from when he started as an R.D. and you're right, he's very sensitive and methodical about the meaning of the race and keeping that integrity and keeping the spirit of the race the same. and, you know, it's a really good board of directors that care deeply about all of that. And it's not meant to be some big commercial, you know, event. It became one, but that's not what it's about. And I think that. And having Topher now is the new president of the board. And, you know, Diana Fitzpatrick, you know, has been on that wave. but they're just such fine people and have such a passion for this race. I don't see that the most important aspect of the race ever going away. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, the biggest pinch point, obviously, is just that the field size stays the same and the number of interested people grows quite quickly every year. It seems like eventually that'll level off, I imagine. But even if it leveled off today, it would still be like, you know, probably the biggest issue that they have to try to manage with that stuff. If you were able to be in charge of Western states, is there anything you'd be like? This is what I would try to do to make it easier to get in, or is that an impossible task? I think it's pretty impossible. I mean, it doesn't matter if it's easier because you still just have a limited number of people that can do it. Yeah, and they'll be able to open the field up. Right. Yeah. And I don't. Yeah. I don't know if I hope that they would or would be able to. If they did, I sure wouldn't want it to see more than a thousand people, you know, to be a little more than twice as big as it is. I'm sure it could be handled, but I don't know, it'd be a pretty big ask for the, you know, what would the impact be on all the resources and the, you know, the towns and the the aid stations, you know, getting the remote aid stations, getting supplies out? I don't know, I think it's in a sweet spot. I don't think making a bigger isn't going to make it isn't going to make it better. Yeah. And it could also be that like part of the evolution of western states is like, you know, this is an event where if if you want to partake in it, unless you get really lucky, it's just one where you have to invest, you have to become an ultra runner versus just be a one offer or like someone who's in and out of the sport. Yep, yep. So it just gets kind of yeah, yeah. So I mean, that may just be the identity that it develops with its current framework. Yeah. And it probably will level off at some point. People will just at some you know, above 10,000 people might just stop. Like I'm not going to enter that because I'll never get in. And yeah, and that's fine. You know, and with the growth of our sport, there are so many really good race companies and races around the country, around the world. So I think it's all good and people can come plenty. Still, you still don't have to pay to come to Western States and watch. You have to pay to get here. But yeah, it's free. You can go to the West, you can go to Forest Hill for free. You can go to the track for free. you can go out on, you know, different, different places and, and watch the excitement. So. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about like, what are some, some interesting things that would be like that would probably never happen, but I think would just be like a weird hypothetical to kind of play through would be like, if you were able to do like Western states, like have the traditional western states the way it is, but then do like other runnings of it, whether it be like on a different weekend where you have something unique about it, where it's like, okay, we're going to do western states without crew and pacers or like, yeah, or like minimize like, the number, the number of aid stations versus what you currently get. Because I think there's like the ultrarunning world is kind of I always wonder about like, you know, we were talking about this just like the optimization of things where it almost gets to a point where now you have like a bit of like inclusive, like it becomes a little more like, blocked off where, like if you want to really optimize at Western states, you're probably bringing to crew. You're probably bringing like maybe multiple people per crew. You're going to want someone who can pace and pace you, and maybe not also crew, so that they're fresh and ready for you. there's all the expenses that go along with that. And then, like you were saying, like you want to do it right? Because it's Western state, you may never do it again. So you're spending hundreds of dollars on fueling and all that stuff where like, is there a way to give people like a traditional Western state experience that also comes with like a little bit less of a like hurdle to get over because you just don't give them those options where, yeah, now all of a sudden, like it's not just, oh shoot, I'm doing Western States uncrewed on paced, and I'm going to be slower relative to everyone else because of that. No one else in this one is doing that, and I think that'd be kind of fun, too, just from kind of like how I'm going to pair myself up to what it was like to run the course when, when Scott Gerke was doing it or when. Yeah. Some of them. Yeah, yeah. And just get a better grasp of what it was like to run it maybe back in the day. Yeah. I don't know how popular that would be or interesting that would be. And obviously it's like a whole you inherit a whole nother job. It would be, it might be actually impossible. And that's because of the section of trail that goes through the Granite Chief Wilderness. Okay. You can't have, you know, you can't have an organized event in the wilderness above a certain number. And the race already existed when the granite chief became his grandfather. And. That's right. Yeah. So to have I mean, you could go on your own and you could take some friends with you and do it that way. I've done that. Not the whole thing. I just did it over the top with some friends in July, and it was beautiful. It was fun to be up high in the country. The flowers were different, and we went from the start to Devil's Thumb and got picked up. and I think, I think Dan Berger, did he, he, I think he did succeed at an out and back. Like he went from Auburn all the way to Olympic Valley and then back. And when, you know, he had, you know, a support crew out there. Yeah. But yeah, I mean, there's things you could come up with on your own because it is a, it's a free trial. You know, it's not public land. but yeah, to have it logistically sorted out, but do it with friends or something I think would be kind of cool. My dream would be to have. If you have the permit for two days, it would be to have the women's race on Saturday and the men's race on Sunday. Oh yeah. And have and have them both at capacity, like having 369 women in the race. And then the next day I had 369 men in the race. I don't know how that can happen, but I think that'd be pretty cool. That would be fun. Yeah. I mean, again, you've got aid stations and volunteers and it'd be kind of a logistical nightmare, but it's kind of cool. Yeah. Yeah. And if there's an event that could pull it off with, like, just with, like, how many people would be interested in, like, they could essentially double there, like any of these aid stations could probably, drum up enough people to come in and help out because, like, it's it's actually hard to get in, I think in some cases, isn't it, to. There's a lot of demand to want to be an aid station volunteer at Western States. Yeah. And it's again, it's fairly local. and so an aid station captain is usually a captain for years, and it's up to them how many volunteers they need and and take. Yep. Okay. Yeah, that is an interesting one. You know, the other way I was thinking about would be, since that, given what, given what you mentioned about, like. Yeah, this is grandfathered in. So it's not like we can just say like, okay, three weeks later we're going to run another one like an unsupported one or something like that would be have it just be almost like what they have with like the fastest known time website where it's just like, all right, you, you do your due diligence around like putting up your, your tracking and your, your strategy and take your pictures and have people do like western states, like just a non-event. Western states whenever they want. And they could within reason, have like a few of their friends do it with them too. And then you get on this website where like, okay, I did Western States on July 30th, 2000 and what, you know, and, and have kind of just like a little bit of a separate side community that's like experiencing the trail but not doing it specifically through the event. Yeah, it just depends on, I guess, you really you really draw out what the drive is in terms of desire to do it at that point, because is it like actually the I think there's a huge amount of people who want to experience the event as the event versus just the trail itself. So I think you lose all those people from an interest standpoint. But yeah, who knows? It's fun to think about either way. Yeah, I would say that I'm in the, I want to experience the trail more than anything. I mean, I love the event. It is fun. But the first time I knew about Western states. I was watching the video. race for the soul. And when I saw the terrain. That's when I wanted to do it. It's what I need. I just really want to run on that course. And I also remember, one day on a training run. on the descent down to El Dorado. And there's all this manzanita, and it's just so beautiful. And I was running with somebody, and he just yelled out trail porn! And I'm like, that's exactly right. Western States are just trial porn. And it's just such a happy place to run, you know? Yeah. And I feel like the event is just a big celebration of all. And you share it with people, and you meet people, and you get to tell them more about it that they didn't know already. And, so that part's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. I guess maybe, maybe training camp is like an indication of how people engage with it to where, you know, like, I've gone out to training camp in the past when I'm not in the race and participated in that because you can go and do that without being in the race. you still have to, you know, get in line and sign up on time and all that stuff. But it's, It is. That's another option. I always find that to be kind of like, it's like Western States has got enough of this aura around it where I think things like, if you take any piece of it and add something to that piece, whether it be during the event or outside of the event, there's going to be some of that kind of nostalgia revolving around it. So I think there's a lot of opportunities to make something out of it. Yeah, I, you know, I, I recommend training camp all the time to anybody who wants to do their race and things they'll never get in. And sometimes they don't know that you don't have to be in the race to go to training camp. And, yeah, there's fewer aid stations. But the spirit, it's the same. It's really, really fun. and if you just show up, day of there's usually I don't know if anyone's ever been turned away. You can register the morning if you make it out to Forest Hill Saturday morning at 6 a. m., there's people that don't show up. And so it's usually okay. Yeah, I don't, I really don't know. I mean there could have been people not allowed but I, I don't know that that's ever happened. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Well yeah. Did you mention something before when you were talking about the number of 70 and 180 year olds? That's, did I see that, that Jim Howard is one of the 70 year olds that's doing it. Yep. Yep, that'll be fun. Yeah a little bit of history there right. Yeah. He yeah I hope he finished the DNF last year but he was pretty close. Oh did he run it last year I didn't even realize. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So yeah. He didn't make it to the track in time. So he finished. But he was over after 30 hours. Yeah. Yeah, he's in pretty good shape. He's I, I don't yeah, I think I think he has a good shot at it. I think that's just cool that there are people that are still not, not just like because I mean there's the question of like how long can you do ultras for. But then there's also how long you stay interested in it. And if you're someone like him, it's like, you know, it's not like he just decided to start doing ultras when he was in his 60s. And now he's in his 70s and he's still got the appetite. It's like, no, the guy who's been doing it probably is. He probably. It's such a part of him. He probably hardly remembers not being an ultra runner. Right, right. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Well, is there anything about Western states this year that you're really excited about? Or is it just let's go there and see what happens? Yeah, I'm always excited. And I think that, you know, that both races are just up in the air. And I love that, you know, either way. I mean, if Jim was there, I'd be excited. Go, Jim. Yeah. You know, and he's not like yay. And you know, trying to, you know, just pick a favorite or not pick a favorite, but just the whole thing is just going to be unfolding on both fields. Yeah. So both fields are so stacked I just love it. It's such a good race. Yeah. Yeah. It is kind of interesting too because like yeah, you I think like one of the I guess the downside of Jim outside, obviously no one wants anyone to miss their spot at Western states. But not having Jim there, I feel like this is maybe one of the first years where he was on the line since he started winning, where it was like maybe he could have a great race and not win. And that, I think, would have been a little bit unique. Yeah. on the women's side, I think it's just interesting that, like, neither Courtney or Katie are running it this year, so. I mean, I think the women's fields are getting stronger very, very quickly and it's possible that they could be there and not win, obviously too. But I think that's maybe a little bit that makes it a little more less determined or like I think like, yeah, if you're just voting people voting on who's going to win. If Courtney or Katie are in the field, a lot of people are voting for Courtney or Katie. Yeah, exactly. yeah. So you kind of got that on both men's and women's where it's like, yeah, there's it's really wide open. So it'll be very exciting. Exciting. There'll be plenty of stories coming out of it I'm sure this year. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Megan, thanks a bunch for coming on and chatting about some of the stuff. I know you've got just such a unique experience with the event itself, and in ultrarunning in general. It was kind of fun to have you on and chat about some of the different stuff that go into running ultramarathons and western states and, and all that stuff. I hope you have a great build up to TDs. But before I let you go, if you want to share with the listeners where they can find you, if you have a website, social media or things like that, they can tune in and see what you're up to. I am occasionally on Instagram, at running. Running. I have a coaching website, Zenith coaches. com, and you can also reach me by email, coach Megan Canfield at gmail.com. Perfect. Awesome. Well, it was a blast to chat with you, and I look forward to bumping into you at a race down the road. I'm sure we'll have one in common at some point. Super. All right. Thanks.