Episode 442: Wild Hunt Conditioning 1100 Mile Project & Rarámuri Tribe

James Pieratt of Wild Hunt Conditioning joined me to catch up before he kicks off his 1,100 mile journey along the West Coast and discuss the famous Rarámuri Tribe's endurance practices and lifestyle.

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Timestamps/Topics:

00:00:00 Introduction

00:01:30 Injury Recovery: Achilles Tendon Strategies

00:07:53 Switching to Normal Foods for Ultra Running

00:15:00 Recovery Techniques for Achilles Tendon Injury

00:22:49 Speed Project

00:30:35 The Rarámuri Tribe and Their Running Tradition

00:38:31 Diverse Diets and Ancient Running Fuel

00:46:15 Understanding Electrolyte Loss in Athletes

00:54:09 The High-Carb Revolution in Endurance Sports

01:05:00 Ancient Endurance Advantages Paired with Modern Practice

01:10:03 Athletic Dominance of Iceland and Maasai

01:18:12 Exploring High-Performance Running Shoes

01:26:00 Footwear Performance Optimization

01:30:19 How Zach uses the Show Sponsors

Episode Transcript:

How's your Achilles doing? It's doing better. It's, It's. I mean, Achilles are so weird to me because I. I feel like they're. It's never just, like, linear progression. It's always like, okay, I think it's getting there. And then there's like a little bit of a flare up and then it sort of settles down and you're like, well, what was that? but I've been making such good progress on the bike. I think I did like over 300 miles last week. I've been just a little bit more conservative with returning to running. so I'm sort of just interested in how that's going to translate to a future race anyway. So, I'll probably increase my running a little bit this week and next week and just kind of test out how much it feels like you can tolerate. But, I think I'm going to keep the bike in the rotation regardless, just to whatever capacity I can, manage the volume with when I get running kind of back up to full speed, but headed in the right direction at least. Yeah, it makes sense from the muscular side of things. That makes sense. And also as far as the bike. So with like amongst the wild hunt system, we would we're big on like plugging in, what we call offbeat conditioning, whether it's bikes or salt bikes, rowing machines. And it's just because we figure it's like we can get the most work out of our energy system and really keep the ratio of, you know, work to wear and tear high, especially as people who primarily focus on lifting and running. I think I'm a big fan of that. And it's just like I have an A session tonight. Zone two recovery. And it's just literally just going to be sitting on the bike at like cruising speed for, you know, 30 to 40 minutes. And I'm probably going to like work on some infographics for Instagram and edit a reel or something with my headphones on and just kind of keep my heart rate at, you know, you know, one 115 to 120 and just use that as a recovery session. And it's like, I mean, so I love the, you know, I mean, it's almost like a cheat code just in terms of like, keeping, you know, keeping the aerobic threshold alive, burning fat, you know, keeping your mind focused, some sort of small discipline and then just getting stuff done at the same time. I'll do calls on the bike, I'll do editing, I'll do whatever I can on my phone, you know? Yeah. From a productivity standpoint, there is a lot more you can get done on a stationary bike than you can out running around. So yeah, I hear you there. Yeah. Especially those low intensity stuff. It's to learn something. I guess you could do that with running too with podcasts and stuff. But like, I've, I've probably binged more YouTube than I ever have in my life in the last five weeks. Just being on the bike because you can just sit there and watch it and. Yeah, and pedal away. Yeah. So like I'm big on that efficiency. I mean it's like running a company. I still do most of my own social media stuff. And then of course, you know, training on average 30 hours a week. So it's like, any time I can do, I can stack, you know, two things. Do two things at once. I'm a big fan of that. but even still, it's like, you know, why wouldn't you? I mean, when you think about it, like the ancient Greeks were big on, training the body and the mind in unison. In fact, every gym in ancient Greece had your gymnasium section. It had your martial arts section for wrestling, boxing and recreation. And then it also had a library attached. So it's like, you know, in many ways, Wild Hunt is just like that library component that we no longer have in our training. But it's like, you know, mathematics and philosophy and stuff, but a lot of it would also be history revolving around physical culture, training, you know, all these things too. So it's like, man, just imagine if every gym had, you know, not just a martial arts studio, but an exercise physiology library, a history library, and, you know, like a just full of Jocko books and, you know, whatever else people have going on, like, that'd be a pretty cool thing. Yeah, that would be awesome. Sounds like a pitch to lifetime. Like, where's your library? I don't know. Tell me about it, bro. but anyway, point being. So it's like, anytime I could do that. But I'm ironically dealing with my first Achilles issue right now, too. Are you okay? Yeah. I've never had any issue. And then I wore a pair of shoes. It's completely my fault, but I went with a pair of Solomon shoes that had kind of an aggressive heel cup on them. And, for a 24 hour training race I did in Southern California. Like I said, I think a month ago, and, like, everything was fine until like the 30th something mile. And then it just started cutting into me, and I hadn't I didn't bring extra shoes. I kind of just, like, really Dirt Bag Runner, this one, it just kind of rolled in with like some non-alcoholic Guinness in a bag and, you know, some like jelly beans and, you know, avocado. And I was like, yeah, I'll get through that. You know what I mean? And all that. Ironically, all that was fine. In fact, the non-alcoholic Guinness is becoming a staple in my, my, like, endurance, nutrition and hydration because it's just barley water. You know, at the end of the day. Okay. Yeah. It's like electrolytes, vitamin B, it's really, you know, it's a, you know, relatively calorie dense for something. And it's so refreshing. but that was one of those things that I looked at like barley just kept showing up throughout historical warrior societies over and over. It's like the Spartans, the gladiators. And it was, considered less tasty and considered like a peasant food or a slave food. So most people opted for wheat. But it was like the, the, the, the warrior societies tended to understand. It was at a greater micronutrient density. It was a bit more of a stable carbohydrate compared to wheat. And so it just kept coming up. And so I was like, eventually I was like, all right, I got to look into this and, and, Guinness non-alcoholic beer turned out to be a pretty good, pretty good answer to that. Interesting. Wow. Well, that would fit well within the ultrarunning community, I guess. You know, I did, I got abs, I trust me, like drinking those beers. I got absolutely no looks at the rate, if anything, people raised an eyebrow when they saw they were non-alcoholic, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's wrong with him? Yeah. Get him the real thing. Yeah, exactly. But yeah, it was funny, but yeah. So, I have kind of altered. So let's see. I am, what, nine, ten days out from the 1100 mile warpath project that we've been working on? Yeah. And so part of that, it's kind of got me to change my perspective on nutrition a little bit. So, as you know, I've transitioned more over the last year to a pretty fat adapted state, like, operating on, like. I mean, at £190 or so. And I still, I mean maybe, maybe 40 to 50 carbs an hour. You know what I mean? Like. And the rest is just, you know, fats, a lot of MCTs and all the oil and stuff, you know, stuff like that. but outside of that, I've been kind of just changing my mindset. I had this weird thing, I think. I don't know, like a lot of runners get it, I think. But like when I came in, like during an endurance event, like I had to be doing endurance specific foods, like it had to be gels, it had to be candy. It had to be like all these just like simple things. and then the last couple, like 24 hours that I've done, I've just kind of switched that and been like, I'm just going to eat normal food. And just like the things that I enjoy and know I digest well and, you know, have potato salad and like, ground beef and, you know, like little strips of cold steak dipped in chimichurri, you know, and stuff like that. And it's like, I feel a million times better. I realize I'm getting a broader range of nutrients, getting fiber, and kind of getting a slower release on a lot of this stuff too, you know, not these massive carb swings. And, but so it's like I made that switch in my brain and I just, I feel a lot better and perform a lot better too. Assuming I'm not going for anything. Like for cinnamon rolls or anything like that, you know? Yeah, that's an interesting topic too, because like when I've been working with kind of my ultra running clients, this topic comes up often. And it's one of those things where it's like, we just have such a large spotlight on sort of the top finishers in the sport where, you know, if they're and then and then the shorter ultras tend to get a little bit more spotlight, too. Like, I mean, it sounds silly to say 100 miles this short, but like when you have events like Kokoda and multi-day stuff and things like that, it is on the shorter end of the ultra spectrum. So I think what we end up happening is we get these like blazing fast 100 mile times and the workload is so high. Like you get someone like, you know, David Roche has been popping up all the time now recently because he's just been crushing it and his workload is so high in these fast, runnable hundreds that for him to take in like anything other than like a liquid gel is probably going to work against him because of that. But the person finishing at the back of the field is doing a lot more hiking and stuff. The way I look at it for them or someone getting into longer duration stuff. And I think we see this even at the top end of the field at like Kokoda and some of these longer runs where now we're getting them out there for multiple days to is general fuelling can be a lot more diverse and a lot more kind of like standard fare, and that's going to kind of keep your energy levels up and then turn to the gels and the sports drinks and things like that, as sort of like I need an energy hit now, like I'm in a low, I need a pop out of it, because those are going to be the ones that just hit the system fast, get you going. So the way I kind of frame it for someone is like, build out your strategy. Stay on top of your fueling. And if you're moving along well, you're not feeling like, you know, like you're in a low or anything like that. Just kind of keep hitting that stuff that works well for you, whether it's solids or liquids and, kind of keep that rotation going and then just save the real fast acting stuff for when you do hit that spot where you feel like you're just below average in terms of your morale or your perceived efforts, a little higher at the given pace and things like that. Or, or maybe if you have a real strategic thing where you're like, okay, I got this steep climb and I know I'm going to bring my heart rate up a little bit above average for the next 15, 20 minutes, maybe hit the more refined thing right before that and kind of strategize around that, because it's like if you're just always doing the fast acting stuff, unless you need so much of it that it's just like a constant stream of going in, you do sort of get that more kind of roller coaster experience of I feel great or I feel bad, I feel great, I feel bad, Whereas most people kind of just want to be even keel. Through the right, through the middle as much as possible. And I think the slower release options that you mentioned are going to probably deliver that on average. and then yeah, you can troubleshoot with the other stuff. Yeah. No, I couldn't agree more. and also one thing I do that if I didn't, it's like an old backcountry trick. And then when I started doing ultra races, I realized I didn't see a lot of other people doing it. But it's like I planned for those lows, and I create a little like elixir ahead of time. So I'll do something that has just a bunch of dextrose in it, a bunch of a full spectrum of electrolytes, you know, making sure there's a ton of salt, and then also something like some adaptogens, maybe some liquid vitamin B, some chlorophyll, some of these things that, you know, like some cordyceps or some of these things that I know my body responds to positively. And I will create like, like three of these, like over in like a 100 mile race, I'll have like 2 or 3 of these cocktails. And so it's like, I know, hey, at the point when I hit like mile 38 or so, some I, you know, I tend to kind of like see a valley approach and kind of the same thing around mile 80 or so. And it's, it's like I'll just have one of these ready and just slam it, keep going. You know, and or just, you know, if I'm doing like a, you know, a backyard type ultra or something to spend a lap, you know, hike a lap while sipping on it, come back, drop the bottles off, you know, refill my my quick gels and just go from there. But it's like and then the other thing I do is just with my nutritionist is just we plan for the fast and we plan for the steep with extra carbs, you know. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense, especially when you're starting to get into something like you're doing where you're going over a thousand miles and sort of distribute your energies over the course of that many days versus just sort of ultra specific redlining. Yeah. For less than 24 hours. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the thing too, I've found in the preparation for this, I have to be a little bit more mature because it's like, you know, it's if you're doing a hundred mile race and you kind of catch an energy surge or a psychological surge, it's like, why not, you know, run your legs out a little bit. Like, you know, it's like, what's the worst that's going to happen tomorrow? You're not going to be able to walk either way. So you know, you're going to get you know you're going to get a faster time. You know you'll get a faster time. You'll, you know, get that adrenaline or that, you know, dopamine spike. And it's like I mean, those are like quite frankly, the best parts of races like that is, you know, when you catch a wave and you ride it. So with this event, I realize it's like, well, I'm going to need my legs tomorrow and the day after and the day after. So I got to kind of, I mean, and like sit in that, like agonizing, just kind of keep that heart rate eternally at like 115, 120, keep the, you know, the calories and the electrolytes coming in and just kind of ride that 4 to 5 mile an hour pace for, you know, 20 something days, however long it takes. But I am looking forward to it. You know, it's like I'm kind of past the point of nervousness. Like for me, I by the time of an event, whether it's maybe just coming from like, you know, martial arts, competitive background or whatnot. But for me, like if I experience any anxieties leading up to a very big project, it's always in the preparatory phase where I'm like, am I forgetting something or am I leaving something out? Am I not doing this? You know as well as I could, but it's like by the time I'm on the homestretch, I just mostly just, like, excited. So like, right now I'm just walking around with, like, electricity in my fingertips and toes, just kind of waiting for the next ten days to wind down. And I don't have any hard training sessions because I'm in that taper. So I'm just like, you know, doing some extra writing, doing something, trying to get content planned and scheduled for the next month while I'm gone. And, but mostly just kind of chomping at the bit right now is my, my main, friction point. Yeah. No doubt. Yeah. All right. So has your Achilles settled down since the 24 hour or is that your back, your mind a little bit? Yeah. So I was just kind of doing strictly prefab stuff which helped it get to like 80%. And then it just kind of stalled there. And then eventually I started getting into doing copper peptides and CBD regularly, just like daily as the topical to address the inflammation while keeping the rehab going, and then brought in some admittedly painful tissue work and massage as well. Yeah, and those last two variables were really just kind of like over like maybe a 10 to 14 day period. Took it from 80% to like 95. So now like yesterday I was standing backwards on a slant board. Did calf raises with £135 on my back, just like a barbell and single plate, but full range of motion. No issue at all. Little pause at the top, hanging out at the bottom. so I'm feeling pretty strong with that. And then the fact that I'm not going to like my Achilles mostly gives me feedback once I move, like kind of past that ten minute pace or so. And I'm going to be more in that 12, you know, like more on that 12 minute per mile moving pace. So I'm not too concerned with it. I'm also just too late to really think about it or worry about it at this point. So I'm like, bring, you know, bring some tape and a lot of anti-inflammatories and it's going to be what it's going to be. But yeah, I did see like I said, the adding in the tissue work is painful as I was. I'm still doing that. and then, like a topical anti-inflammatory where you know, those were definitely they took me over that last little bit. Yeah, there is that. That that sort of is what my experience has been so far too, is where it gets to 80% really quick. Like you just really don't have to do a whole lot. You see that like that, like clear progression. And then it sort of lingers a bit and it's like, what do you kind of do to snip that last little bit? And like you, the manual therapy has been very useful for me. I sort of learned that I went into the PT and actually got a really good diagnosis, figured out where the scar tissue was and just where other areas were that were likely feeding into my issue because, you know, it's rarely like, oh, the Achilles was weak. It's usually the Achilles took on loading because something else was off and kind of discovering where those spots were. But yeah, I mean, that tendon was so sensitive. Like I didn't even want to touch it. And she liked getting into it. And I mean, it was like that first time it was rough. Like just getting a tooth pulled basically. Yeah, it's so bad. But since then it's like it gets more tame the more you do it and the more you kind of work on that, like swelling. And I had a little bump on my Achilles tendon too. So I'm just kind of running, getting some manual therapy on that and some scraping over it. Now I'll just do that myself. And if it feels a little more tight, I'll really kind of scrape along the side of the tendon and then over it, and also try to get kind of like a flexion in on my, on my, soleus and gastric while I'm kind of doing that. And it's like, I still know it's still a little more sensitive than the other one, but when I do that afterwards, it's like any of the discomfort just walking around or running kind of goes away. So it's almost like a good warm up routine or just something I plug in over the day. If I notice it's a little tighter than normal. And it seems like every time I do that, it kind of returns back to fine. So yeah, maybe I need to figure out a way to get that in as much as possible. And that's what's going to kind of like finally get it going in the 100% direction. Yeah. Well, I mean, you could also just like as part of your warm up, do one of those little bumpy foam roller things a lot of people use. I've never been too into them, but it's like, you know, it's, it's enough to kind of hurt a tender area. You know, it's doing the right thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That is the weird thing is it's like your psychology that hurts. Don't do it. But that's not always the case when it comes to getting tendons and ligaments back up to speed. There's a little bit of discomfort you have to tolerate. And then you also got to know where the crossover point is. Like, you don't want to go and pound a workout and be like, now it's screaming at me and I'm probably overloading it a little bit too much. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a game of thresholds for sure. And I kind of went full circle on that. I always thought like it was. Brutish and like. Unskilled. Like. Like inflicting pain during a massage. Like if someone was hurting me in a massage, they weren't doing it right, you know? Right. And then I went, and I had this little Russian man that was a sports masseuse in Northern California. I watched for a little bit. And he was. I'm not exaggerating, like five foot two, £110. And he would, like, climb up on the table and dig elbows and knees in and he would come out of it like a session, just like literally dripping and sweat. My wife would be like, what happened? You know? And he hurt me like I'm not. He hurt me so badly. Like I told my wife, I was like, it was. It was beyond discomfort. It was so much pain that it was just a matter of like, I can't at this point. I can't tell him to stop or ask me like I have to. It was like, I'm literally legit psychological challenge. But I came out of those sessions feeling better than I ever have in my entire life. And, like some of it was like. But although, to be fair, he was like, apparently I had a lot of, adhesions, you know, where muscles kind of fused together or whatever. And so he was like in there digging him out, and it was brutal. But, like, you know, there's some like I said, it's a very fine line, but sometimes, like, sometimes it's going to hurt and that's going to you're going to feel a lot better after them. Yeah. Yeah. You just want to get those done before the day before race day, I guess. And if you're worried about it the day before race day, you probably already backed yourself into a bit of a corner. But tape it up and send it. Tape it up and send it, you know. But, Yeah. No, it's, So anyway, long story short, it's cool. And like I said, I have the the psychological bonus of being able to run 1100 miles just basically between really cool archaeological sites and different, you know, long literal trade networks and war paths that, you know, like, it keeps my brain kind of engaged and buzzing the whole time and, stopped by some museums. And then I'm going to be joined by, you know, like the people that I'm closest to in this world. So, you know, my, my crew and my friends are, you know, they're coming out, everyone, you know, broken up different legs. And so it's going to be cool. It's going to be, I'm going to stay a couple nights with Daniel Lee and, his family. Yeah. Yeah, he's a he's a close buddy of mine, but the, so, you know, he's he's been helping with the research on this project and then, of course, loaning me his house for a couple nights to use as an aid station. So I am, you know, always, always grateful for that. But anyway, really, really looking forward to it. but today we're going to talk about, collision, am I right? I thought we had Tamara, but we can do collision if you want. You want Tamara. I'm flexible on either one. The, Yeah. I mean, that's the most, geographically appropriate, given my coming adventure. So, Yeah. So that's that's a cool one. The. I mean, obviously, they're I guess to say trending would be an understatement right now. Given the fact that we're starting to see more of their athletes enter, you know, competitive races, on the, you know, well, I guess now, we wouldn't say even the international scale initially, it kind of started, you know, with a lot of the altruists down in Mexico. But now and then, what was the speed project last year? You had a team of those girls just crushed it, am I right? Yeah, I think so. I think that was the speed project. Yeah. That was. That's LA to Vegas, if I'm not mistaken. Right. A little, four, four person relay. Yeah, it could depend I think I actually did it. Was it 2022 I think. Must have been 2022. And it was. You have most teams. There's a team of six. Okay. And the way most of the top teams will do it is they'll have you, they'll group you into threes and then your team will be on or off. And then when your team is on, it's like really short relay exchanges, like we were doing as short as 800m per hour per leg. Yeah. Which I guess has just gotten kind of it's really interesting because like some of the top teams there now have gotten good enough support from different. It's usually like a shoe sponsor or something like that, where they'll hire someone to go and plan the route, because it can be any route and you know there's going to be faster and slower ways to do it. So if you have someone out there building that route for you and then even like checking it, the weeks leading in to make sure like it still is, because some of those like, power line sections are really difficult to know because it could just depend on how many ATVs are out there in the days prior or the weeks prior to make it, like really rutted out. You got to send a Jeep out there if you're going to relay every few minutes, essentially. And yeah. So, yeah, it's really an interesting setup there. But yeah, we were doing like I think it was in the early stages. We did some legs that were as long as 4 or 5 miles, because we were still getting out of California, out of the city. And it just made more sense to do it that way. And everyone's legs are still fresh. Right. But then once we got out to get in the thick of it, it was pretty quick. Exchanges. fun event though. Yeah. So it's cool to see. Yeah, I mix it up. Yeah, yeah. No, I personally like those. You know, some of them are longer. I guess you would say geographical running myself that that appeals to me quite a bit. But I do want to come in and do some, hundreds with a speed focus, I think in the next couple of years for sure, and see, see if I can get a little, a little quicker there. Because generally when I do hundreds, I'll actually every hundred of them now has either been a training race or a, going out with a buddy to kind of, you know, pace, pace slash coach, you know. but yeah, as far as the, the, Amari go, that's it's interesting. Did you ever imagine you've seen their, their tendency and, the reasoning why they run in Levi's. in Levi's. I don't think I know that part. I'm familiar with the footwear and the nutrition is probably the deeper stuff for, for my experience. Or maybe I know I just forgot probably to do but yeah. So it's, it's like it was this weird thing like I've talked to a couple and linked up with a couple online, including the people that run Caballo Blanco. So I, I really, I really want to go do that one as soon as I can get down schedule wise, but, essentially. Yeah. So the, I guess I, I imagine it probably started earlier than this, but the first I heard about it was people doing it like the 80s or so. But yeah, they found that running and basically loose fitting, Levi's was one of the best. I don't want to say wardrobe. I guess you would say equipment choices they made because the cotton does a pretty good job actually, in the heat of the day, especially if they're loose fitting and there's room for air to circulate. And then obviously at night it's much nicer, you know, like when it's cold, jeans are going to be much warmer than just, you know, your basic running tights or whatever. And they found that they actually surprisingly liked if the jeans fit right, and had very little chafing. And like I was going to ask about that. Yeah. They felt like it was really counterintuitive. But they've had a few guys go down there. I mean, as you know, many guys, including the guy who was at Christopher McDougall wrote Born to Run. A lot of people, you know, American endurance athletes have gone down there and trained with them. And basically one guy came back and he, like, he kind of kept the habit with him. And he did. He's done a number of like, I can't remember the distances, but he's done a good number of like marathons and I think maybe even like hundred mile distance races. Now I'm wearing jeans and basically he just wears Levi's and he does a little, little bit of squirrel nut butter on, like the inside of the leg, like just wearing hot spots like you would on shoes. And he said, it's like, you know, it's perfect. So I've done about what it was, about 30 miles in jeans. I did the last leg of a 24 hour race in jeans, but that was when I broke my foot, so I was going pretty slow. It was just really cold. And one of those Arizona nights that you weren't, you know, weren't really expecting it to be freezing. And it ends up freezing. Yeah. yeah. That's actually. No, sorry. Go ahead. I was just gonna say that's interesting too, because I remember this was years ago. At this point, I think it was probably 2013 or maybe 14. I think it was 13 when Pam Smith won the Western States 100. You know, it was kind of at that timeline where sports performance gear was starting to get a lot more popular and a little more specific. So people are wearing, like, dry wicking stuff and getting more light, airy type material. And Pam was like, convinced that no, on a race like this, where you're in really dry, hot heat and it was like a historic hot year that year. You want cotton because it's going to retain the water, retain the moisture. And when you're in an environment where it's almost like the the evaporative cooling is too fast because the climate is so dry, you want material that's going to help preserve some of that versus like a humid climate, like here in Austin where you probably don't need cotton, cotton on an amoeba because you're just going to stay wet. So having the wet fabric on top of it isn't going to do any favors. But, but yeah, and she wrote an article about it afterwards saying like that was one of the tricks that she used that she thought was probably more effective than what most would consider to stay cool in the hot portions of the day when you pour topical cooling on or just sweat and, and be able to stay wet for a little bit longer. Yeah, I actually hadn't heard that story. But, I mean, you know, this is where I'm from, I'm born and raised in that area, so. Yeah, I definitely can confirm I definitely can confirm what she's saying about the environment. And I imagine the same thing you're going to encounter, the same thing in the, you know, in Mexico, the Sierra madre mountains, you know, does that make sense? But again, I suppose that's a bit of a less, less traditional approach. But anyway, as far as a traditional step, yeah, obviously their most iconic piece of gear would be the sandals, the running sandals. And, so I guess for anyone who's not aware, just the kind of ten second overview of that is they wear traditional sandals. They were traditionally made out of like rawhide, but in more recent times they've switched to, like, tire rubber, literally just making sandals from old tires. And this girl, Maria Lorena Lopez one. Well, she's done a few things, but she originally kind of, put the spotlight on the primary in general when she won an ultramarathon, I believe it was either a 50 K or a 50 miler in Mexico, but she competed against sponsored athletes. You know the best in Mexico. People are sponsored by Adidas and Nike. And you know with all the latest in nutrition and Cruz and she ran and addressed and rubber literally tire rubber sandals and won. I can't remember by how much, but she won by a pretty considerable margin. And then the funny thing about this is when essentially Nike came to her after the race, when she was, you know, all the spotlight was on her and offered to sponsor her, and she responded to them by declining and saying no. And when they asked her why she would turn down a sponsorship from Nike, she said the people wearing them always finish behind me, and I thought that that was just the coolest mic drop moment I think I've heard in sports history. Possibly. yeah. And so yeah, I'm just working on an Instagram reel about that, that, that comment, I love that. But, long story short, the Aurora Murray, they are one of the very few Native American or indigenous tribes in North America who were never conquered by the Spanish. Essentially when the Spaniards showed up and the, you know, the conquistadors and their auxiliaries were conquering everyone and subjugating them and forcing them to, you know, convert to Catholicism. The Maori essentially just were like, well, we're pretty good runners, so how about no. And they just kind of ran into the mountains and were like, you're not going to keep up with us or catch us, you know what I mean? We're. And so now they live high in the mountains, you know, 6 to 8000 ft elevation just every day. And they live because they have some of their traditions that date back before the Spaniards. They still don't do much in the way of, like, transport animals. So one reason that they're such great runners is that they now live high in the mountains, but in settlements that are often, you know, between 50 and 200 miles apart. So it's like if you want to see your mom, sometimes that means just running an ultra just to see your mom, and you're doing it at high elevation. And this is just a way of life. So it's like when you take someone like that and you're talking about thousands of years, and then particularly the last few hundreds of years, doing it so actively in this exact specific way, and you kind of put them on a trail and tell them to run against the rest of us that were born in hospitals and raised watching cartoons. And you know what I mean? Recreationally doing sports, you can kind of see why, there's a potential for them to be so dominant in competitive ultramarathon running. Yeah, yeah. One thing I was going to ask you about that too, is like when I looked into it, it looked like from just a historical standpoint, like their population numbers were pretty high for a while. Like, if I remember correctly, it was maybe even close to a million. but then it's sort of like it dwindled down to maybe just under 100,000 and it sort of stabilized. There was that sort of thing. The time frame where they saw where, where, like, the Spaniards came in. And then they went up a little higher. And obviously that's going to add a little bit more of a challenge to keep higher populations. There is. And then, of course, like something that kind of gets touched on a little bit, but it's like not 90% of the casualties inflicted by the colonization took place by disease. Like there was no you know what I mean? There weren't some like the Spaniards, who lost a lot of the fights. They fought like a lot, you know, they might have gone, you know, slightly better than, like, you know, 5050. but the thing is, that disease marched ahead of them, usually by a few decades. So often by the time they got somewhere, even to the Aztecs, like, you know, the Aztecs were one of the first people that got, you know, the Spaniards conquered and one of the first empires they went after. But they had, like the Aztecs, had already been devastated by smallpox and other diseases that got there years before the Spaniards did. so presumably I'm not like, I'm not too sure about the, you know, the, we would have to look at specifically at the timeline for their, the population fluctuations, but that would make sense. I would attribute that primarily to disease, war, upheaval, relocation. and then, of course, just, I imagine their population stabilizing once they reach a more stable environment, but also an environment that's not going to be able to support the numbers that they had in the lowlands, you know, higher in the mountains, less to eat, less water. You know, like you said, population density. And then that's one thing that does define their lifestyle today in the modern age is the fact that their, their, their settlements are still really far apart, you know. Yeah. Yeah, they have that. Yeah. They're kind of hard. They're not as consolidated as you might imagine. And that makes it harder to, to be targeted and even from a disease standpoint probably. The other thing that I find interesting too is like when you usually have these more like resilient groups of people or resistant type groups of people, it can be like, well, what is your food and water source? And if it's highly reliant upon some other biological creature, like an animal or a very specific body of water, you're sort of painted up against a very unique scenario that can be weaponized against you, more or less. But it seems like we're a little more, kind of vegetarian based, and some of their staples were maybe just a little more transferable in terms of having access to it without having to be completely, in one location. I'm always curious about your thoughts on the nutrition side of things. Yeah, a little column, a, little column B, so they did so like they, they escaped the worst of the Spanish onslaught, but they also did pretty good at, like, at. Maintaining some level of maize cultivation as they moved higher into the mountains, you know, and that, I mean, it's like throughout that entire region. corn and beans are just massive staples. And it seemed that they didn't have, you know, too much issue, keeping that in their diet. I just can't. I don't speak on it with too much certainty because I didn't. I'm not sure what their cultivation was like before they moved in the mountains. I mostly started paying attention to the story about that. You know, the time that Spaniards got there, I would be interested to kind of dig into some of their pre-contact practices, though. But in any case, they, however, the one thing that they kind of worked in their favor is they were really good medium to small game hunters, so big, like, nutrition staples were deer and turkey. And so these things were pretty much to some degree always available. And when you know, not to the level that you're going to see, like, say, the Comanche, you know, subsisting off bison entirely. But you have, you know, turkey and deer both abundant in America, you know, and presumably even more so back then. And they are pretty renewable resources. It's not like, you know, say, hunting elk or bison, where it's like, these are big animals that take a long time to, you know, kind of reproduce and grow to full size. Like every year you got a bunch of turkeys running around, deer all over the place. And if you have maize, you have beans. And then you have, you know, you're also big on fruit, like cactus fruit and then mesquite. You can also like, kind of like in, you know, the Pacific jungles. How sago palm. It's like you look at a palm tree and you're like, that is not edible, but it's like you cut off the outside, you hollow out the inside, you know, you blanch it, you boil it, and it becomes like essentially, you know, like a flower, you know, sago flower. You're kind of doing the same thing with mesquite here in the southwest. And, you know, the northern Mexico region, it's like mesquite seems pretty much outside of, like the little fruits and stuff. It seems like pretty much the least edible thing ever. But if you hollow it out and you get the mesquite hearts, then you roast them and powder them like they become a very high protein, low glycemic index carbohydrate. That's actually a great running fuel. I know this because I'm going to be using it as one of my running fuels on the coming warpath run, because I'm going to be kind of sticking with a lot of the historic, methods and practices of native runners as I pass through each territory. And so in the through, like, you know, basically from San Diego to Bakersfield, like, those are all, you know. Cultures that had some degree of mesquite and their fino fueling strategy for their messenger runners. So, it does not taste amazing. I can tell people from experience. But having said that, it is a very viable fuel source. And so when you kind of look at all these things add up, you can kind of see how they had a pretty decent menu despite living high and dry desert, high mountains, you know, at, you know, like I said, high elevation and remote locations and very rocky terrain. They still ate pretty well. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it sounds silly almost, to think of it, because today we're spoiled with so much surplus and variety. But as far as, like living off the land goes, when you get into the world of having access to multiple different animals and then multiple different crops, you sort of do have more of a diverse opportunity. So if you do have maybe a hold up on 1 or 2 of those options at any given time, then you can kind of lean on other things too. So you're not totally dependent on a very specific thing that could cause you massive problems at some point if you also lose that access. Yep. And then of course, you're looking at just on the whole, you have a much diverse diet nutritionally. It's, you know, you're not living off a mono crop like wheat, you know what I mean? Or something like that. Like you're eating the full spectrum of, you know, foods across the board. And then of course, they had something they do that I like a lot that I take. There's now a million different recipes for this, but they essentially have corn drinks. Some of it's like fermented stuff like beer, but they have something nowadays, presumably after the introduction of, or obviously after the introduction of livestock where they take, masa harina. So this would be corn, dried corn. That's ground. It's roasted and treated with lye to make it more absorbable and gut friendly. And basically they mix this in milk, goat milk, along with a little bit of honey, too. If you can get your hands on it and mix it up and use that as a drink as a running fuel. And it is amazing. I got Ben Greenfield turned onto this because I was like, I was sending him pictures of me making it before I was, I was training for whatever my last event was and and he's like, oh, I gotta try that. And I'm like, it's so good. And Bob's Red mill actually sells masa harina already made up to. You can just I mean, we had a oh, really? Oh yeah. We kept a thing and I just threw a, you know, maybe two tablespoons of that and with some, some, some milk and honey and I had a little cinnamon to mine. Shake it up. And it's a great, great, you know, very stable, slow release carbohydrate. so it's like this is not like when you look at raw money, Murray running methods and, fueling strategies like it's. You could. You could be forgiven for looking at that and being like, oh, this is kind of gimmicky stuff. Or, this is almost like half a step in the direction or something. But when you start breaking this stuff down, it's like, okay, well, first of all, they're winning races against modern athletes. So that proves the validity of their methods. You know, in principle. And then you start looking at some of these things specifically and you're like, oh, okay. Like this makes sense. But one thing that I do see with them that you see, like universally with the best physiological runners around the planet at the cultural basis of the San Bushmen, the, you know, the especially the ultra marathon distance, one thing that you see is they are like when you, when modern sports scientists analyze them and take a look at them, they see that they're just way more efficient in terms of their hydration and fueling. they just don't need as much as we do. So it's like, you know, they my nutritionist says, like, when you're running an ultra marathon, it's not a matter of winning the nutrition. It's just how slowly you can lose it, you know, because it's like slowly, you know, no matter what you do, your bars over time are coming down. And it's just like a really good nutrition strategy has slowed that descent. But with them, they just like the San Bushmen, like when they watch them run, they run at like an 11 mile, you know, 11 they, they're running 11 minute miles and they're doing it like for hours and hours and hours and hours on end with very, very little food or hydration. And that's like it's not a fast running pace per se, but it's a fast pace on minimal fuel over hours and hours and hours for sure. It's not like you're hiking for 15 minutes, you know, or something like that. so that's one thing you see with Aurora Murray too. It's just whatever. I mean, it's just, you know, evolutionary response and lifestyle for sure, but they are much more efficient on a calorie for step basis, and a gram of sodium per step basis than we are. And it's like that's some of that you can train and adjust for. But again, that's when they look like the top ultramarathon runners. I'm sure you're familiar with this, but like the top ultramarathon runners on Earth, it's like they all to some degree tend to have some sort of genetic disposition that puts them. And any like, any metabolically efficient state. You know, it's like they're not like some people lose a ton of fluids or, you know, like super quick. And they just there's no way they're going to be able to keep up with that over ten, 12, 20 hours, you know? So they're probably always going to be somewhere in the average to mediocre range where that's not because they're bad runners, they're not bad. It's just because their fluid loss exceeds their fluid consumption abilities. You know, their gut absorption abilities. Excuse me. So basically what you're seeing is a very favorable balance in that direction with these, a lot of these tribal athletes. And it makes sense because they've just been doing this for thousands of years because they didn't have horses and livestock like we did to carry messages for the last few thousand. It's just all on foot in a relatively sparsely populated continent. You know, when you're talking about Native American runners and warriors and messenger runners in general. And so it makes sense that you would have to evolve to be very, very efficient with, you know, I mean, it's like there were runners from the Fox tribe who. Ran like, routinely ran 400 mile routes over multiple days or whatever. But, and they're carrying, like, all of that nutrition for each leg just in literally like a fanny pack. Like one of their big things was a dried bison heart. They just literally take a dried bison heart and just tear chunks off of it as they're running. And, you know, whatever dried berries and, you know, whatever else they had along the way. But it's like, no matter how you cut that up, no matter how big your pack is, like you're not carrying enough jerky and dried berries to match what you or I consume and even, like a 50 mile run. You know what I mean? So does it make sense? And then, of course, you're seeing much lower sodium tolerance or sodium requirements. So my wife and I, a couple of years ago, were out at scratch Labs in Boulder, and we got all of our sodium testing done. And my wife is part indigenous. I am not. And she requires less than one third of the sodium that I do. And it's just because she's, you know, from an indigenous background, from a pretty equatorial zone, and she's just much more efficient with sodium than I am, where it's like, for me, I need like, I can't even remember 16 or 18 or, you know, some crazy, you know, per, you know, whatever it was, it was a triple what a normal person needs. And she had like a third or two thirds of what, like the average person needs. And just like, you know, your body responds to different environments, you know. Yeah that's a really interesting point. It's what I've thought about quite a bit since actually I started thinking about it more specifically after the first year that Kokoda happened. Because just the way that event is set up, you know, you start out just out of Phoenix. So it's really hot at the beginning. And logistically they really can't give you a whole lot of support in that first 50km. So that first event, the inaugural event, especially before they really had like a process set in place, it was like everyone was rolling into like the 50 K aid station up at Crown King just depleted. And I started thinking like, I wonder who's having success? Because like, if you're digging yourself in a hole like that that early, it's just like a recipe for disaster. And it got me thinking, like, I wonder if the people that, like, weathered that best were the ones that are like on that very low range of like sodium loss, where it's like 2 to 300 mg/l of sweat versus the high end where you can get up to like over two grams, which to think about like a 10th of need from the high end of the low end is pretty insane. So when you start thinking about almost the absurdity of what some of these, like, indigenous tribes are doing and how hard it is for us people to wrap our heads around it. It's like, well, you know, over years and years and years of just sort of like genetic selection, essentially, because like, if you're living off the land, you're going to favor the people that are more tolerant to survival versus the ones who aren't. It's just probably an entire group of people that are at like 2 to 300mg of electrolyte loss per liter, and then on top of it, they probably lose very little sweat. kind of a funny story along the lines of what you and your wife experienced. Like, Nicole and I have both had our losses tested, and I was 614 mg/l. Nicole was like, I think just under a gram. So she loses more electrolyte than I do. But if we go for a run. Say we go for like a three hour run in the heat. I'm probably going to drink at least twice as much as she is. So even though I have a lower electrolyte loss per liter of sweat, I'm losing way more fluid than she is. So she's actually taking in. Yeah. She's got. Now, if she could get if she was to 300 mg/l or electrolyte loss and had the high or the low fluid loss rates, then you're in that spot where I think like you're just you're like set up great for some of these like really hot, dry climates and these longer type of events where attrition is going to play as big of a role as anything. Yeah. So that echoes exactly what my nutritionist explained to me. And he's pretty good with the hydration stuff. I mean, he's literally the what? I think he just won for the fourth year MMA nutritionist of the year. You know, he does all the big UFC fighters and and that's their that's their thing is, you know, like calculated dehydration to make weight for fights. So it's like he's one of the world's foremost experts in not just dehydration and weight cutting, but performance while dehydrated or dehydrated, which is why I sought him out for my own nutrition as an ultrarunner. and then, of course, he's recently run some ultras himself, too, so he kind of knows what it's like to, you know, be on both sides of it. but point being that he like, basically that that relationship you're talking about, between fluid loss and sodium requirements, it's like with these, tribal athletes and many of, like, just the genetically lucky elite, you know, endurance athletes, you see the same thing. And then, of course, you get into more specific stuff like, you know, VO2 Max, but, you know, like some people just walking around with, you know, a VO2 max of 4 million, basically, while the rest of us are just fighting to get to 65, you know, whatever it is. But. Yeah. So it's, I mean, it's it's one of those things that when you're talking about pursuing physiological maximums, it's it's all very, very relevant and important. But for me, I'm just kind of like, well, what cards did I get? Okay. How can I play these to have the most fun while I'm here? You know, I'm also almost 40 and only started the sport a few years ago. You know what I mean? So it's like, that's, you know, like I talked to you about at some point I'm going to I'm going to have you help me, you know, break 20 on a hundred miler and, you know, do some little fun stuff. But, beyond that, I have no illusions that I'm going to go to, South Africa and outrun a Sam Bushman in a hundred mile, you know, antelope chase or anything like that. Yeah. No, it's it's it's interesting too. And I think the other interesting piece to it too, is like sports products in just the way that those get built and designed, they sort of open a door, I think, for more people to be able to excel beyond what their genetic potential likely would be. And I mean, we're seeing this now with carbohydrate consumption where we're seeing, especially in the cycling and triathlon world, where a guy just reported taking in 200g of carbs per hour on the bike. Now, whether that's accurate or not is probably questionable. But, I mean, we know guys are doing 150 and or over, just over. So it's like you're you're you're getting up there pretty high at 150g per hour. And the big question then is just like, well, we to some degree it's unproven that that's usable at that rate because there's like there's capacities of processing limitations, but there's also a bunch of things that we don't necessarily know that it could be interacting with. That's helping with just perceived effort and focus. And, you know, just how you're feeling in those kinds of hard parts of a longer race. And it's possible that like, yeah, taking 150g of carbohydrates isn't going to be directly. Positively influencing your actual metabolism of that and making you faster from that. But it could be that it's triggering something else that's making it feel easier. Your perception is so similar to caffeine, it's like there's no caloric value to caffeine. It's not entering your system and giving you a fuel source, but it is kind of opening up that I guess maybe the way to think about is it's sort of like lessening the governor that your mind puts on your body at different times. So it's kind of like a really interesting time to be in sport right now with a lot of that, a lot of that different kind of process and developments over the last few years. No, no, I agree. And then, of course, there's also just a psychological part of it. Like I just slammed 100g of carbohydrates, you know what I mean? And I am getting some positive physiological feedback from it for sure. But also like, you know, psychologically, like that's comforting. Same thing when I have a sip of coffee, you know, better, at least back when I had caffeine, I had a sip of coffee. I'm like, okay, this is for sure caffeine. But also this is at least 50%. The fact that I just love a good cup of coffee. And it's been, it's been I've been running in the cold night, you know what I mean? but no, I think it's definitely interesting. And right now it's cool. Interesting from a data perspective because we're seeing two pretty heavy swings. Like after, you know, the last 5 or 10 years of seeing people get a lot more fat adapted and kind of get into, you know, like more stable fuel sources and hormone friendly fuel sources and fats, healthy fats. We're now kind of seeing the beginning of two divergent trends. One is people doing a lot faster running to train, like mitochondrial efficiency, which I think to some degree I'm on board with. I used to try to like fuel optimally for every single long run I did. Now I'm mostly just focused on making sure my gut is ready to take in what it's going to need to take in during the event. and focus kind of more on like, hey, I'm very seldom going to be running under perfect fueling conditions in an event. Like, it's okay if this 30 mile run I'm doing on a random Thursday, I don't, you know, I don't have everything perfectly nailed down in terms of how many my calories and this and that, as long as I stay hydrated, and, you know, enough fuel to keep going, I'm probably going to be fine for a training run. so I'm on board with that. But then the other thing is kind of strange. Have you seen this? Our buddy Mark is playing with it right now. The sugar diet. I'm just gonna bring that up at some point. Interesting. Interesting. I was texting with him about that the other day. I sent it like. I think I sent him a picture or something, you know, and he told me he likes it. He's like he's all, like hard in the other direction. He's on a sugar diet now. Yeah. But I was like, I sent him some stuff too. I was like, well, technically there were like champions in ancient Greece who had a diet that was primarily based around honey. So it's like, you know, honey and dried fruit. for me, it would kill me on day one. I have, like, you know, tons of diabetes in my family and my body. Like, I've come to realize over time, I just do not like excess carbohydrates. so if I'm not using them immediately and functionally, they're generally I generally avoid them. But, like I said, if like then again, also Mark has a freakish amount of muscle. So I imagine just the glycogen tanks are probably, you know, like just massive. but yeah, it's, you're was it was it one of your buddies? I don't think it was Dave, bro. It was someone. Someone recently, either you and I talked about or I saw you doing something with, but they had just done a they just set an Fkt on some course, and they were talking about how they ingested way more carbohydrates than they ever had in their life. It was a super technical course, a lot of switchbacks anyway, I can't remember. Point being, you're seeing, this new like super high carb revolution, you know, starting to kind of come more and so it's like, I'm curious to see where that goes from here, personally, but I've been playing with, you know, I lean a little bit more in the other direction personally. Yeah. I think it's just one of those things where if you apply any approach, especially ones that are getting closer to the fringes of things where it's like entire elimination essentially of a single macronutrient or like really like titrating one way down and one way up. If you apply that population wise, you're going to get down. You're going to get people who just do not respond well to it. And like the one thing I'm very resistant to is like, you get these dietary tribes and you'll get a cohort of them oftentimes where their mindset is, this worked great for me. And in a lot of cases it probably did. And then their mindset is, well, everyone is going to have this same experience. And if they don't, it's because they're doing it wrong. It's like, I don't think that's the case. I think there's going to be a certain percentage of the population who maybe just thrives on some sort of extreme input, and then most of us are probably going to be able to. I mean, one of the things that makes humans so unique is we can thrive on such a wide variety of things. So a lot of times it comes down to just like context and like the environment that you're doing it. It's like you, you place, you place an excessive amount of energy toxicity on anyone, regardless of it's fat or carbohydrate. You're going to eventually have type two diabetes. And, you know, one thing we know for certain about Western civilizations is energy. Toxicity is just massive. We're doing less and eating more. And, you know, so that you get these energies that actually I'm on on the topic of Mark, he had Stan Efforting on just recently, a couple of days ago. Did you listen to that one? No, no, I have to check that out. Check that one. I thought Stan did a really awesome job of kind of breaking down, kind of just where he thought the application was for what Mark is doing and kind of where it falls within kind of what we know and maybe what we don't know. but yeah, I mean, it's like you look at you look at what Mark's doing and you're like, it's hard to argue with him in the sense of like, he's got a specific goal and he's heading towards it with the inputs he's doing. I think I like Mark the most. He's just like a curious guy. And he gets up. He's getting. He's obviously getting a lot of attention for this and a lot of it negative, being that he was, you know, low carb, even keto and even carnivore at times too, in the past. but like my experience with Mark has always been, regardless of what his dietary inputs are, is he's just like, all right, I see people having success with this. I'm going to see for myself. I want to know. And he's always kind of had that trend line through his stuff, whether he was marketing it or not. And I just kind of see this as another example of that. And the one thing I'm confident is if Mark starts realizing, hey, this isn't working for me anymore, or something gets more curved than something else, he'll be willing to try it. He's not going to dig his feet in the sand and, and, you know, start proclaiming that the governments need to start prescribing the sugar diet at a population level and the guidelines or something like that. But, yeah, I. So, Mark, Mark is first and foremost a student. You know, he's he's like, he's a good friend of mine. He's he's a student of everything. He's here to learn. And he's he's as objective, way more objective than you have any reasonable reason to suspect a person would be these days. He will always call it how he sees it. He's he's going to he's willing. But like the thing is he tries stuff like this because he's an open mind, you know, and it's, it's he's going to be honest about what he finds, what the positives and negatives. he's also very open about the fact that he is on anabolic steroids. You know, he has been for a long time and that's, that's, you know, again, for anyone who's not aware, completely socially acceptable within, the, you know, the world that Mark comes from, like, he was never it was never, there was no scandal attached to it, you know, anything like that. And he's always been very open about it. And so that also negates the, you know, the hormone related stuff. Like if you remove fats from your diet, you're going to have testosterone crashes across the board, unless you have exogenous hormone use. So that, you know, again, the fact that he's open about all of this kind of shows you the type of guy that he is. Like, he's here for the data, he's here to understand it. And as a guy who's given much time and publicity to my own training methods. Same thing. Like he didn't know who I was. Like at the time, I didn't have any following, any awareness. He just saw me doing some stuff in his gym one time. It was like, you know, hey, I want to learn that. What's up? You know? And that was how he and I became buddies. So, I will say. Yeah. No, exactly. You know, and so I will say that I'm grateful that guys like Hamm and Ben Greenfield exist to try things, because there's a lot of things I don't want to try. I do not have any interest in trying the sugar diet. and Ben does even crazier stuff. So I, I, I'm glad that they, they are around to teach us and show us, you know, show us the way with these things and show us kind of where the barriers and some limits are because, you know, as we found out a lot in the past, like they're not always where they think they are, you know, so I think, you know, I think it's good. But yeah, the fact that he's, he's getting flak online for it, I wasn't aware of that. It makes sense, but I wasn't aware of that. But that's silly because he's, you know, he's not telling anyone how to live their life. He's saying, hey, this is a thing I'm doing experimentally and out of curiosity because I'm a student of life and fitness. Here's what I learned. Like if you have an issue with that, the issue is with you, you know? Right. Yeah. I mean, it would be different in my opinion, if he was like you said, he wasn't disclosing like his actual inputs. which I mean, yeah, as far as, like online like promotion goes nowadays, that is that is a problem, I guess, where you get someone, someone like Mark who doesn't disclose that and everyone's looking at like, okay, well you're getting that result with this input and they don't know, okay. Are the guys on anabolic or or nowadays even just tests? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's a perfect example of it. versus kind of what Mark is doing, which is just I'd be more disappointed, I guess, if it was like, all right, Mark had I mean, obviously like he benefits. He benefits financially from not doing the sugar diet from you because. Oh yeah. He's built a following to some degree of people who have skewed in a very different direction. So like, yeah. So well, especially with the protein stuff. The funny thing is like, yeah, bro, part of that process is really titrating down your protein to the bare minimum. And I guess the argument is if you keep your liver muscle glycogen saturated all the time and keep the strength in there, keep the training in there, then the need for more than the minimum protein just dwindles. And there's probably some truth to that. But like the guy he's got he's he's got protein supplements that he sells. So it's like he's not doing himself any favors by telling his followers to like to like, divide their protein intake by three and start with that because they're probably going to get that from their dietary input versus needing a protein shake at that point. So, so I mean, yeah, so like to some degree it's like you can, you can see the authenticity. And in his own kind of curiosity with, with those, sort of those sort of things. But Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of it's just like online community stuff where if you say anything that is eye-catching, then there's going to be a group of people who are upset about it and they want to let you know. And Mark does a pretty good job of, I think, probably ignoring most of it. No, no, I'm sure he does. And it's, it's interesting. I saw some of that. I tagged doing it recently, but a post showing different animals and humans running a 100 mile race, based on. Oh, yeah, that's what I was like, I, I like, I think I can't remember, I did normally when I do a post like that, I'll put the sources for everything in the comments. I can't remember if I did for that one, but I remember I was like, I was surprised by how many people got triggered, that they're like, there's no way an untrained human is going to take 100 hours to run a yeah, 100 hours to run a 100 mile race. I'm like, okay, well, I know many trained humans who have not managed to do it at all. So you know, who set out and very understandably failed, you know what I mean? To finish it. So I think I'm getting pretty generous there. And there was another one like, you know, like there's no way a Spartan messenger runner could run six, run 100 miles in 16 hours. I'm like, yeah, no, they could for sure, because we know based on like, we can, like, some of these things are tangible. We know how far settlements were apart. We know how long it took for a message to get there based on wider military implications that played out off that message. you know, like, confirmed, like, you know, even like forced marches because, you know, it's like you can find a lot of these things. But anyway, point being, it is funny how when you say something that impinges upon a pre-existing perception, it can elicit quite a bit of a reaction in the world, we'll say, well, just look at modern examples like Mike McKnight ran 100 miles in roughly 18 hours with zero calories. So. Yeah. And so imagine how much faster you're going to go when your life depends on it. Like his life. He could have stopped at any second during that. Yeah. But so it's like he's kind of pretty similar. Like pretty similar time to what that report would have been. And then you have dire consequences attached to it, probably, even more efficient individuals, just due to the timing of it and what people had access to. Where I would imagine, like a lot of these, like kind of huge accomplishments are probably selected for people who are like we were talking about before, just very efficient with things and could probably squeeze a little bit more out of a a low input scenario like that and still put up some what looked like unachievable times. Yeah. And I mean, again, 16 hours is a smoking fast 100 miler, but not if it's your job like not. Yeah. Yeah. And keep in mind when I say your job, I mean you've been trained. The training starts at age seven. So it's like you're training for this. Also, the average Spartan was five foot six inches tall. You know what I mean? Like a minimally muscular, very lean build. Like even the ancient Greeks were known for their, like, physical aesthetics. You know, it was prized. And the way that they, they trained really like that's why you see a lot of these lifelike statues like, that is a really good looking physique coming out of ancient Greece. the Spartans were even amongst that in that world. Other Greeks always commented on how lean they were, you know what I mean? So it's like they only ate two meals per day instead of the four meals per day that was common in ancient Greece. They are barley and wild game compared to the fish and wheat diet that you saw in Athens. A lot of, you know, stuff like that. So point being, these, they're smaller than we are. They're more energy efficient. They're also doing this from age seven with professional training, including stuff that would be considered child abuse today. You know what I mean? In terms of like physiologically pushing that hard and on top of that. You're running the same. You run this, like, course once a week for the last ten years. Like, you know what I mean? You know where every cut, every turn is? Every path between here and Athens. Every. You know what I mean? And so it's like that I had quite frankly, possibly being, you know, like generous by saying 16 hours. You probably imagine there were guys doing it in 14, you know what I mean? And so it's like, you know, it is what it is. But the point being that these, I hesitate to really lean too much on, like pointing to the degradation of man over time. But I believe today I just posted a reel that shows bone density and men evolving from the Paleolithic to now, and it was, quite frankly, shocking to me. we are essentially like, if I can remember the number. So I added both bone mineral density and cortical wall thickness. But essentially we're at about less than half of both than we were in the Paleolithic era. And for the average man. And then the modern athlete is about 20 to 20 to 30%. You know above what the average person is. But then even still, that's less than half of what they were in Paleolithic times and significantly lower than we were just an average warrior. And, you know, about 2000 years ago, ancient times, which is super interesting considering nutrition was suboptimal in that period across, you know, pretty much across the board. So it's like their nutrition was suboptimal in that their bones were still 40% denser than we were 2000 years ago. Like that's yeah. That shows you it shows you something. I think Rogan talks about this pretty consistently, like comparing skulls and jaw sizes to, you know, over the last, you know, 5000 years or whatever. It's like. So there is some of that to consider because the Spartans were around, you know, roughly at their peak 2500 years ago or so. So you add that in the lifestyle of training, the fact that you are literally having eugenics in play. Also, given the fact that any small, weak or deformed Spartan babies were abandoned. so it's like, I like my 000 issue seeing someone cranking out 60, 16, 16 hour 100 milers. Yeah, yeah. And I guess like, you know, there's, there's obviously like these modern examples of this too, where like, I mean the Amari are one of them where they've certainly had population pressure to trend them towards these certain genetic traits and capabilities and things like that. And I mean, the thing I find interesting or I'm curious about is like you have these individuals, I guess we've probably seen this to some degree with, like the East Africans, where they have all those genetic and historic traditions in place. And by the time someone gets around to identifying them as a good athlete, they likely have benefited from a lot of that. But then they're also introducing a lot of modern. So you get like someone like Eliud Kipchoge where it's like here you got this guy who's of a group of people that are incredibly genetically gifted due to some of the things we've talked about. And now on top of it, we're going to put all the bells and whistles, all the modern inputs, and that's how you get a two hour marathon like. So you got your Khashoggi from Klingon. You have Thor. Bjorn, you know, the Icelandic strongman who's just far and away the strongest person on planet Earth. Like it's the same thing. And I know we're planning to do a future episode on the engine, so I won't go too deep. But what's fascinating about them is you have the engine and their neighbor. Their neighbors are the Messiah tribe, and they are traditional enemies. So lots of, you know, wars going back, who knows how long. But what's interesting is the Klingon are speaking generally here as a pool, the best marathon runners on the planet, you know, like you probably couldn't couldn't focus on any single ethnic or ethnic group that, you know, pound for pound is going to capita for sure. Yeah. Per capita, you know, same thing with Iceland, like, you know, like America has, I think, put forth 5 or 10 times as many strong men competitors at the elite level as Iceland. And we have a fraction of the titles that Iceland does. And it's like you have a very small number of guys just winning everything. but point being, so you have the best marathon runners per capita, we'll say at least, you know, as an oversimplification here. and then next door to them, literally next door, genetically and culturally, next door, as well as geographically next door to them, you have the Messiah, who are, pound for pound, the best fast twitch athletes on the planet. They're a domu dance. If you haven't seen it, you can go on YouTube and just type in, Messi or lion hunters jumping or anything like that. It is something to behold. These people have vertical leaps that exceed anything you're going to see. It's like, it's as if every single one of them could win an NBA contest. It is, like, absolutely insane. And the crazy thing is, they're doing all this jumping with no heel contact on the ground, just all four foot jumping, light springing. It's almost unbelievable. But I need one of their Achilles tendons right now. They literally, I promise there. They must be like hickory. It must be just like. Yeah. Like a four inch circumference. Like. Like half of their leg is just Achilles. but the, while we're on that topic, the Messiah hops just at, like, you know, variable intensity are a big, big tool in my general training for plyometrics. And they are great for Achilles. It's both part of my progression, getting them back to the point of being able to kind of do, deficit capris with heavier weight, too. And it's just nice because, soft surface, grass pad, whatever, you can kind of control that. And just a very nice little dynamic warm up, that will engage that Achilles. but getting back to it. Yeah. So insane jumping ability, fast twitch they had. Again, I'll save the meat of this for when we do an episode. But it's very fascinating because you saw culturally, personality and tactically some pretty interesting differences. It's almost as if like, no, it is as if the athletic spirit of a culture manifests, based on their personality traits, you know? And, so with the engine, same thing, just high altitude. They come from a herding culture where they had to cover long distances with cattle, with goats. They also, much like, say medieval middle aged Scotland, had a big cattle rustling culture, which meant that you were always raiding, counter raiding, racing to defend or recover, across the open ground in an area without many horses. And they were doing this at a high altitude. And then also they got very good at raiding the lowlands from, you know, essentially the Great Rift Valley. They live on top of a giant escarpment, you know, just like a. A wall that, you know, the ancient gods raised up out of nowhere. And they were very good at kind of coming down off that, that geological shelf rating and then getting back up there with cattle real fast. And, so it's like you have these guys doing this for thousands of years. And then in the 60s, you start to see the British introduce more technical track and field training. And then shortly after that you have, Kipchoge senior, right. Or the, in the ninth. Was it the 60s? The father of Kenyan ultra marathon running, I believe his last name was also Kipchoge. but anyway, kind of create a culture around this. So it's like you got the training, the supplements, and then the culture, and you just see this explosion of, you know, like, you know, the perfect unit, a perfect storm of all these things. And that's why they have been, you know, dominating ultra marathon running ever since or marathon running. Excuse me. Yeah. It is interesting just when you see some of these groups of people, especially during times where they've, they've sort of got a good grip on survival. They start introducing games that oftentimes closely resemble the skills that are required for what they're doing to survive. And if you want to look at the contrast, you'd probably look at, like the Highland games versus like the games that the Amari are playing. I forget the specifics of that game they played. They've got some. It's like a ball game isn't it. That they. Yeah. So that's particularly interesting. There's one thing that I did want to talk about is they're really good at Gamifying endurance training. And so they do forgive my pronunciation here. Rah rah rah rah rah rah. Anyway, it's basically a small ball game. The ball is a lot smaller than a soccer ball. And they basically. Yeah, just like kicking it and carrying it and some of these. This isn't like playing an hour on a soccer field or something. They do this over various terrain and tails and trails. And sometimes these games can last like a day or more. And so you're just it's literally like an ultramarathon game, but it's like you're having fun, you're engaged, you're practicing teamwork and navigation all the, you know, all these things, your own logistics. And it's very practical. And then they start doing this with kids at a very young age. Like, and my research, I found old footage of like, you know, kids five, six, seven playing this game and they're just having a ball and they're doing it up high on a mountain somewhere. And so it's like they, it fits exactly in line with what you're talking about with kind of creating, you know, I don't want to say the word ceremony, but sport rather that, you know, kind of reinforces a lot of these, the habits that you're looking for. Well, the interesting thing I think about with that, too, is it's almost like a preservation of a survival skill set that in good times you wouldn't want to lose for if bad times reoccur. So it's like you think about, yeah, you think about just the characteristics of these different groups of people, whether it be I'm going to benefit from being as big and large as possible versus I'm going to benefit from being light, small and fast. You know, the games that they tend to gravitate towards tend to be the ones which keeps them in that physiological state more, more readily, or even just, I guess the other way to think about it too, is just like the teaching. I mean, we see this in the animal kingdom too. There's specific skills the parents passed down to the children that they sort of learn early on so that when they become adults and they can be contributing to the, the group, they, they have those already ready to go and they can apply it in when it counts without having to practice, when it counts, I guess is maybe the way to look at it. Yeah. What do our Navy Seal friends say? Get ready so you don't have to stay ready or stay ready so you don't have to get ready. Yeah, but no, I mean, you know, again, it is. And it also I think you kind of maybe it's kind of the less socially popular side of this is like it substitutes a lot of the camaraderie and like forced maturation that maybe conflict does. You know, like I, I mean, what at the end of the day, what is sports even today but like kind of a gamification of war, right. Like even even down to the rivalries, the colors, the banners, the, you know, and, so it definitely makes sense, though. And, oh, speaking of, speaking of a minute ago, we were talking about, You said something that reminded me about footwear. Oh, I think we were just talking about the actual game. the game. But I have to thank you for turning me on to the shoes. Those are. Oh, you like those? Yeah. Game changer. Best. I'd say the best overall running platform that I've used. I got the trail runners. tried them out. Got home from my first run and immediately ordered the road version. And then, so those came out, and I did my last. So my last run block was 120 miles in four days. And so I wore both shoes for, you know, alternating road beat sections. And, they were just great. Just great. I went, one of the days, my last day, I went on the beach without gators, though, so I got a little, little chafing on my heel, but that was just sand related. But now the shoe is amazing, and it's the first time I've tried, like, one of those really, really high end type shoes, you know, like, you know, altra and Hoka and like, you know, they all make great shoes, but it's like, you know, there's $160 shoe and there's a $300 shoe, and I never, I never I was I was not aware of the difference, we'll say. but yeah. So I got a pair of, I got a pair of the roads and a pair of the trails for the event coming up. And then of course, I'll bring a solid quiver because you never know what other stuff's gonna, you know, what hot spots or issues or this or that's going to develop the wrong way. So I'm gonna bring some ultras and a pair of, probably some out to some other stuff. But yeah, those speedruns are the next level, man. Yeah, that's a fun, fun brand. I just like the way they sort of built the shoe to fit, I think there was maybe a gap in the market where we're getting these high cushioned, premium foam, really light, really unstable shoes and they're going to make a compromise. Like if I take those road speed lands into an efficiency test versus like Vaporfly or meta ski or something like that, it's going to get beat from an efficiency standpoint. But when you get out into the world of what you're doing or even the world of ultra marathon, to some degree, stability and performance start to there's there's a meeting somewhere there where you can't compromise as much stability as you'd be able to for like A5K, a ten K, or even a marathon. but you still want some of the performance, and it seems like they're trying to really bridge that to some degree within the longer stuff. And, and then on the trails, it's a little, a little more subject to, I think, just other things other than just the super foam. So, I really like what they've done kind of with that line. But yeah, Mountain Coast, same thing. A little bit more on the road side, but a really unique brand that hasn't put out a chute that I would say is going to like, perform from an efficiency standpoint, the same way as some of those top ten premium foam marathon shoes. But again, that's not their target. They're trying to build a shoe that works for long ultramarathons and oftentimes multi-day. In fact, Megan Eckert I just had her on the podcast, this week and she runs from out of coast and she did. She just broke the women's 600 or, I'm sorry, the women's six day world rather than 603 miles insane, 40 miles to the world record, became the first woman to cross 600 miles in six days. And she had two pairs of shoes. They were both Mountain Coast ones, and it was almost really just one shoe because it rained like the first half of the first day. So she had one pair on. She basically just dispatched after that and then wore the other one for the entirety of the rest of the race. So I think, like, I think it's probably close to 500 miles. She put on that one single pair and just never felt like she needed to change it at any point during that. So you can see what some of these brands are doing now that we probably have the ability to specify with your goals versus trying to catch too broad of a category of people, you get shoes that perform really well in their proper setting. Yeah, yeah. No, those are runs. Oh, that's a good shoe. That's but yeah, it's honestly so I'm trying to think, when did I start ultrarunning? I reached out to you for the first time when I was trying to get started. Maybe it might have been five years ago. I can't even remember. Not even. Yeah, probably about five years ago. I never got Covid. So about five years. Five years. In that time, the ultra running specific shoe game has moved light years in just five years. like when I first got into it, there was like, I mean, you know, you always had Hoka and Altra kind of representing that, that space. But like in terms of like shoes for ultra runners and then like, like you said, specific stuff because it was, if I remember right, at least to my awareness at the time, it was pretty polarized in terms of like, you get performance or you get you get performance or you get stability and that's it. Like, you know, it's like you could get some I think the carbon shoes were starting to come out by then, but it's like you can get something that's really snappy and responsive or something that's running on pillows, but nothing much in between, you know? And so just in the last few years that it's evolved quite a bit. And, this for me specifically, these seem to kind of check the, the perfect balance for me to like, I can run a bit faster in them, where it's like, I like the, I like the mount to run a lot like a, you know, very, very stable, comfortable shoe. I like the lacing system, too, for when your toes swell up. But I found that I couldn't. The feedback was a little bit muted for me personally in terms of my faster runs. And so this just kind of seems to like the, the, speed ones. They check both boxes. And I like the fact that I can kind of do both. yeah. I think the speed limits have a little more of a linear kind of progression of efficiency from across the speed spectrum from my experience. Whereas with the AR ones, I felt like they had no performance in them when I was running, like, like probably above, like a seven minute mile pace. But if I cut down into like mid sixes or lower, I started to feel those kind of get a little more snappy, which is kind of interesting, but it felt a lot more like with the speed limits, it feels like pretty even in terms of what you're getting out of that shoot all the way up to like a sprint. whereas the R once felt like it almost became a little bit of a different shoe as I crossed a certain threshold. That's not super uncommon with shoes with premium foam in it, though. Like, you get that sometimes, just depending on how the shoe's geometry is built and where it's good, because some of them, like you really want to hit the shoe in a very specific spot too. And that's where you get a lot of efficiency. So if you're not running a specific pace or with a specific mechanic or gait pattern, then you may not catch that as. Which is partly why I think there's a value in, for people who are really looking to like, squeeze. Every last drop out of performance is when it comes, say you're going for like your marathon PR or something like that, and you really want to make sure you get all the T's crossed, all the DS at it. If you can go in and get the shoes that you like tested to find out which one's more efficient, you know, nowadays that can make a difference. So, where do we different? I was just curious where, where do they offer testing like that? Yeah, I. You know what? I'm not sure. There's a lot of great options. Well, I mean, you could actually see the infrastructure there. So all you need is a metabolic cart testing like that any university has. There's a lot of commercial based ones like that. There's probably multiple just here in Austin that offer that where you need to get a little creative is there's like an actual protocol that's required to use that technology to give you the information you're looking for from a shoe efficiency standpoint. So there's a guy in town here named Dustin, who's a professor at Saint Edward's, and he's got a lab and he offers the testing. It's like, I think he only charges like 60 bucks or something like that. You bring in for four pairs of shoes and he'll he'll test them and he'll tell you which one, like, Cam Haynes was in town a couple of months ago, and we brought him in and he tested four pairs of shoes at the time, he was going to do Boston Marathon, and he had a hamstring issue, so wasn't able to race it. But he wanted to know, like, which one is going to make me the fastest at that specific contact. So they put him on the treadmill at the pace he was going to target at Boston, tested each of the shoes. It's basically like a series of five minute sessions at your goal pace, and then you do a repeat of each shoe with a control. And then you see, based on your, your, your efficiency, your oxygen exchange, like which one is going to produce the best efficiency. And then that's going to be the shoe that's likely going to yield the fastest race. All things are equal for that individual. So yeah, that's like the high end version of performance optimization I guess when it comes to footwear. But hopefully there'll be more offerings similar to because his protocol is public, like anyone with the equipment could just say, okay, we're going to do this now. And it got it, got his protocol, got certified as I can't remember what it's called, but it's like it's considered to be accurate. Recording process that will like they can, I guess like you can like make claims or something like that based on his protocol versus, you know, if I decided to come up with a new process to test efficiency, like I couldn't make any, like wild claims about it unless I had it certified his is. So, I just, I just created a bone damage matrix for analyzing, like, different athletic injuries and ancient skeletons. And it's the same thing. It's like it is super solid, but it is not acknowledged. It's not an official thing at all. No. No medical claims allowed. No. Or prescriptions allowed. But, hey, that reminds me. So that I'm thinking if it works for you, it'd be cool if I could get out there this fall or this spring, come to Austin for a few days, maybe see that guy, and, get a session in with you, too. If I, I gotta dial in some of my goals for, next year once. I just can't see past this, this 1100 miler. I know, but, within the next year or two, for sure, I'd like to get kind of get smoking on some, faster 100 milers. It'd be cool to test some, test some shoes, and then kind of get your, get your hands on up close to see. Yeah, that'd be fun. Let me know. Yeah, yeah. For sure. We, Yeah, we were just out. I just got back from Kentucky, but the, I think that. Yeah, we're gonna get out there as soon as we can. Cool. Yeah, yeah. Keep me posted. I'd love to have you out here. Oh, awesome. Yeah. Anything else we want to get today? I can't remember. I don't know, we covered a wide range. It's going to be hard to title this one, I think. Schizophrenia. Schizophrenia. What? What do they call, folia do? Madness shared by two. Yeah. I think we could talk to some cool stuff. Hopefully the listeners will be interested in. In parts of it at least. But I, I'm sure we'll we'll catch some some intrigue, so. Oh, no, I'm sure I will think it's, you know, as you know, I just, I think unless there's a specific aim, just freestyle it and let people hop in and hop out where they are, where they find value. I mean, I think authenticity always, always wins in the end, right? Yeah. No doubt. No doubt. So cool. Well, James, where can people find you if they're interested in checking out some of the stuff you got going on Wild Hunt conditioning. YouTube. Instagram. we're pretty much pretty much everywhere wild hunt conditioning and whatever your, your, medium and platform of choice is. And, Yeah. Tune in if you guys are interested. On the off chance that you're interested in ultra endurance stuff. tune in for the next, on June 1st, when I will run a 1100 miles long network of Native American war paths. hopefully doing some getting some cool endurance work and content in while also, uncovering some history. Perfect. Well, I'll link all that stuff to the show notes, too, so listeners can head over and follow along either on socials or for the event. But thanks a bunch for chatting. Yeah. Absolutely brother. I look forward to the next one. I think our next one will be whenever we schedule it after the event, but we'll kind of get a circle back to that. and yeah, the secrets to becoming the best marathon runners in the world. Yeah, absolutely. We'll download your experience on the, on the 1100 mile trip here and, and then also touch on that. I think that'll be fun. Yeah. No. Sounds good to me, brother. Awesome.