Episode 441: Cocodona 250 Record Breaking Performance - Dan Green
Dan Green recently won the Cocodona 250 and broke the course record along the way with a time of 58:47:18. Prior, Dan has found success running fast times at the Javelina 100, including breaking 13 hours last year and landing on the podium.
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Timestamps/Topics:
00:00:00 Introduction: raffle winners, coaching, and sponsors
00:01:35 Bouncing back after Winning Cocodona 250
00:06:18 Pursuing Ultramarathons: Beyond the 100-Mile Mark
00:12:23 The Inspirational Legacy of Ted Corbett
00:18:36 Navigating the Muddy Sections at Cocodona
00:25:07 Race Strategy and Mindset
00:31:27 Race Strategy: Investing in Rest and Timing
00:37:53 Optimal Sleep Strategies for Multi-day Ultra-Endurance Events
00:43:46 Nutrition Strategies During a Race
00:49:54 Understanding Fluid and Electrolyte Loss in Athletes
00:56:16 Golden Ticket Contention at Javelina
01:02:56 High-Volume Training Techniques for Ultra Running
01:09:08 Bargain Boys Media YouTube Channel & Following Dan
01:11:08 Sponsors: How Zach Uses These Products
Episode Transcript:
Alright, Dan, thanks for taking some time out of your Sunday to chat to me about running insanely long distances and winning. We did those two things. Yeah, yeah. So what are we? We're probably about a week out from Kokoda now. How's your body kind of feeling after getting that all done? Traveling back to the East Coast, I assume there was probably a little bit of logistics there and kind of settling back into things. Yeah. Body is good. I mean, after the race, even though I was surprised with how little it was, it was bothering me. I was kind of expecting. I'd been telling people here, I was like, hey, I'm fully expecting to be injured after this race. So if I'm a jerk, I'm sorry. I'm just going through it because I can't run. And luckily, that didn't happen. But I was fully prepared to be injured, so not being injured was a huge win. And yeah, I just had some like, you know, the classic like a little bit of my Achilles hurt just a tiny bit during the race. And then your feet swell up pretty bad. And you know, that makes traveling a little bit less pleasant. But other than that, I mean, it was pretty good. We're feeling pretty good right now. Nice. Did you see that post that Ryan Sands put up of his foot swelling? Yeah, dude, he had one foot swell, which is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. When it starts looking like a water balloon, you know that you've, you've done a little bit of little work to it. Exactly how my feet kind of looked, too. I mean, for like 3 or 4 days, it was kind of like my calf was just the same thickness to my toes. It's like you took a, like a thin balloon, like an animal, animal balloon, balloon. And just like, put a kink in it and like, that was my leg and foot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty wild. It's. It's just one of those things. I just had Megan Eckert on the podcast, and she just set the women's six day world record. So like. Yeah, it's just like your body is so out of whack. I mean, people who kind of follow that stuff probably think like, you finish something that you just pass out for 24 hours. But the reality is like you're everything's so off balance between hydration, just hormones. Your body's achy. yeah. It's just in a weird spot. So, like, you usually don't sleep great necessarily that night before. And then if you gotta travel back, you have probably had some travel. Ryan. Sansa to fly back to South Africa, I presume. So like, he was probably on a crazy flight after that. And it's just like just throwing one thing after another at it. So it's nice that you're bouncing back pretty quickly, though. Yeah. For sure. My travel wasn't nearly as bad as his, I can imagine, but, I mean, yeah, it's just standard, like, you got to get to the airport and. Love your witch with this race. It kind of sucked because the bags were way heavier than normal. You know, usually I travel to a race with like one check bag and then like a backpack, and this was like two checked bags. They weighed like £1 million because it's just like a bunch of gels and stuff. And so I'm like lugging these things to the airport, which, I mean, you check them so you don't carry them the whole time. But still, I can't imagine doing all that. and then flying for like, however long he flew and then getting off. And then you got to wait for your £60 bags to get off the carousel. Yeah. There's so much logistics. It it one thing I wanted to ask you about that is kind of curious about two with just you doing the Coca-Cola 250, winning it, breaking the course record is I was kind of following some of your results over the last few years, and you've got such a good progression with like the 100 mile race, especially like with Javelina specifically like we were in the field together in 2023. At Javelina, you had a great race there, fourth place, just over 13 hours historically relevant time for that course. And then you followed that up the next year, moving up a spot to third, breaking 13 hours, which is a very relevant time at Javelina now. It seems like breaking 13 hours is the new standard at Javelina. so my thought is like watching that trajectory. It's like, well, Dan's going back to Javelina, and he's going to try to move up one more spot and get that golden ticket to Western states. Maybe that is the plan. But what I'm kind of curious about is when you're sitting down and planning your schedule for the year, what was it about Coco Dona that kind of stood out that you're like, hey, I think I'm going to take a swing at something longer yet and see how I can do it. 250 Definitely. So like, yeah, the hundred miles, I think more of my speed. 100 K is fun, but man, I just don't know if I have, I think I could work on it. I just maybe haven't had my best day or my best training blocks getting ready for hundreds or who knows what, but I just feel a lot more comfortable in a hundred mile and just like, confident. And I've always wanted to just run further than that, even when it's like even when I was in like high school and college and stuff, I'd be like, dude, I just want to run, like as far as I can run kind of thing. so initially that looked like kind of dreaming about like 48 hour, 24 hour runs and stuff and, just kind of putting that off because it's not doesn't really make sense if you're running like track and cross country to one train for those things and two do them, you're not really allowed to do them. and so I've always wanted to do it. And then I wanted to do Coco dono a few years ago. And it was kind of like suggested by some people around me, like, dude, you should probably just focus on your speed now because, like, you're young and you don't want to go do that, and it's like you could definitely get faster but I've wanted to do it. And then my buddy Ryan Ramsey, who crewed me this year, ran it last year, and I got to go out and pace him and crew him for some of it for like about half more than half of it. And, I just solidified my love for it. And so I was like, you know what? I'm not going to wait around and. Do it whenever I like. Quote unquote. Like older people. Because I'm already 28. Which, I mean, it's not super. It's not like old, I guess. But, you know, in the sport, it's not like I'm getting younger either. So I'm like, I'm just going to go ahead and just do it now because like Javelina, like you said, yeah, my times were great at Javelina, but it's progressing so quickly that it doesn't even really matter and you don't really get anything out of it. I mean, you get a lot out of it, but you don't. Nothing really happens unless you win or get a golden ticket. No one cares if your time is relevant or like a top five time or whatever it may be. If you don't get a result, then it doesn't really matter. and so I was like, you know what? Before I wait around and go to Sedona when it's 48 hours to win the thing, I'm going to go ahead and go now and then just see what happens so I can at least get in and get some, like, practice, because that's kind of what I want to do. some of, I mean, I, I hope I can keep doing to hundreds, you know, and hundreds to like, I want to stay, like, kind of fast, as fast as I can today, and be able to do those. So I was like, you know what? I'm just going to go ahead and do it now and hope for the best. Yeah. No, I mean, I think that makes sense. I mean, I've been kind of digging into the history of the sport a lot more the last year and just kind of figuring out kind of where the roots are with it. And like when you go way back, I mean, people just assume kind of, I mean, the trail side of the sport. I mean, depending on how you define trail, the modern trail side of the sport is kind of new. But when you get into just multi-day stuff, like six day events and things like that, that's like really, really old, like hundreds of years old. So when you think of it through that lens, it's like, yeah, you could look at it, it's like, oh yeah, I can probably be. I can probably tolerate my peak longer for something that's multi-day than, say, 100 K or 100 mile, but I don't think it's drastic. And like you said, I mean, the sport's continually growing. We're starting to kind of see the sport, I think branch out a little bit more from all right, if you're not good at 100 milers, you're irrelevant. I think there's a lot of opportunity to build a brand within the sport at multiple different distances and things like that. I also had Charlie Ware on just recently, and he's got the 50 mile world best. He's going to go for the 100 K world record, and just won the 50 K National championships. And it's like he's got a sponsorship and he's making a living on the sport right now with the sub hundred mile stuff. So it's like he's 250. Like if you just follow that coca dono stream, it was like, yeah, people care about this. So like I think in terms of like kind of progressing within the sport and, and winning races, like you said, some of it is just, you know, getting in when you can. And one thing I've always thought is an interesting thing to or perspective to take with ultrarunning is like, these are long, mentally and physically grueling events. So if a specific type is calling you. Don't wait. Just figure out the best way to do it. And if you recover from it, I don't see there's a. I don't think there's anything to suggest that you wouldn't be able to do, like a speed work development phase once you're fully recovered from Kokoda and be fast enough to still run your best 100 miler. So I think you maybe took advantage of the opportunities the right way. Yeah, I hope that's the case. I mean, that's kind of how I feel and kind of how I thought going into it, because, I mean, I didn't really train that differently for this race. I did a little less speed work, maybe like on the high end, maybe like 20 miles more per week than I would probably do, maybe 2530 at the mat, at the high end on the high weeks. And then like some stair climber, you know, and like that was pretty much the main only difference. so it wasn't really a huge difference in training as far as fatigue, like long term fatigue or whatever, wear and tear or whatever you want to call it. yeah. And I feel pretty good now afterwards. But it is cool. You brought up the history and like of ultra and stuff like. When I was younger, I had this mentor kind of guru guy, Lance Pletcher, who's since passed away. But he was just like a real eccentric old guy that was a substitute teacher at my high school, but then also like an assistant coach, he was just like a running dude. He would just, like, show up and shower us in, like, knowledge and stuff. And he would, he would do all the. He would get all these, like, articles and, like, news clippings and stuff, and he would photocopy them onto, onto one piece of paper, you know what I mean? Like take scraps of paper and make one big paper out of it. But it would be like history of running and like people doing six hour events and like, crazy, like people in the 1900s running like early 1900s running like, kind of stuff like you do, like multiple days inside on a track. They're like, yeah, drinking alcohol and like, taking drugs and just doing crazy stuff to like, run forever. And I always thought that was super cool. And then he introduced me to a guy that you probably know, but Ted Corbett. Yeah. So I read his, like, little book and some stuff about him, and that dude's just an animal was an animal. And like, people like Gary, Jerry Lindgren, who were like, not necessarily ultra runners, but would train like unknown miles per week just because they didn't know any better, because the, the, the science wasn't out and people weren't like, volume is bad for some people. They were just running like 180 miles a week like 19 year olds, which I think is pretty insane. So that stuff's always been kind of on my mind. I'm like, well, you know, they could do it back then. I'm like, surely with modern shoe technology and like, good food, you could pretty much do whatever you want. Now, hopefully if you're able to, I guess. Yeah, yeah, we definitely have a lot more resources to kind of help get the body turned around from that sort of stuff. I do always wonder about that with some of those like six day events back in like the late 1800s, early 1900s, like the shoes and stuff they were wearing. It's like their feet and the difference like tendonitis and like. Stuff that they probably were like, just like normalized. It was probably pretty insane. But, yeah, it is. I think you're thinking of it the right way. It's like, the training itself is, I think the training is like, if you're fit, that's going to take you most of the way. And then it's like there's a certain like maybe eight weeks or so prior to the event. We're getting specific towards the demands that are probably important. And then if there's like a skill set involved, like technical descending or pole usage or something like that, then maybe you want to spend a little more time with it. But yeah, being like, you know, for you being in sub 13 hour shape at Javelina, coming off of last year, going into Coca-Cola, it's like you're going to be able to do as long as you execute your plan properly, like you're going to do fine there. assuming you translate well to that duration and distance, and you clearly do. So I would be kind of curious about just what kind of training you're doing. Do you have a philosophy that you typically follow, with, with kind of training when you're kind of in the thick of it? Yeah. I mean, I guess I started really training a lot. I guess you would say, or more significantly, more right after college. So I got out of college, probably took about. So when I graduated college, I took a fifth year. And so I stopped going to school in 2019. And after that I started kind of just running a little bit more, but nothing crazy. And then about 2020, 2021 when I wanted to get into doing more like doing all tourism stuff, my training philosophy, which looking back is kind of not the best, but I was kind of like, well, I'm making up for lost time was just to run as much as possible without getting hurt, at least for me, whatever that looked like. And so I was kind of just running a lot more, you know, doubling like every day, multiple workouts, stimulus, which I think is good just in general, especially if it's if one, you know, if one's pretty easy and you do that for a long time, it's not really that much extra wear and tear on you. It's kind of just like normal. Your body's pretty used to it. so just running more in general and then, you know, the classic like, you get kind of into a race, you're always maybe doing a couple little speed workouts here and there, but then when you get maybe signed up for a race and then you have probably, you know, 6 to 10, 6 to 8 months, then you start maybe, maybe doing some more workouts like two a week or something, like one a little bit lighter, like interval, one a little bit longer, like a steady state or a tempo or whatever. It is like something for, for example, you know, you would definitely do some longer tempos and stuff. so things like that for and then just keeping your long runs good. I mean, I don't really cut down or anything on long runs if I do them on the road, unless it's like I am in place of a workout. And then with trail, you got to get on the trail. That's like my biggest issue initially is kind of running on the trail. I tell people all the time, I'm a terrible trail runner. I just happened to run trail races because I don't really run trails that often. compared to some people, even now, I don't. But before, probably two years ago, it was even worse. I mean, I would run a trail once a week. Sometimes I would not even run a trail that week. But leading up to Kokoda, I ran the most I've ever run. So like 2 or 3 times a week and then the long run would always be half road, half trail. So I'd get 3 or 4 hours on the trail every week on Sunday. and so that was really beneficial, I think just ankle stability and like the classic things you would gain from running on trail, because that's usually one of my weaknesses is like, you know, just destroying my ankles repeatedly on the trail. And so luckily, I, honestly, I only rolled my ankle slightly once during Kokoda and I never fell. And I was like, that's pretty good for 58 hours for the trail. Yeah. To never fall and barely roll my ankle. That's pretty good. Yeah. And some of those trail sections out there on that course too. They're not, they're not javelina butter smooth. So there's plenty of opportunities to turn your ankles and fall. So you were on point, I guess. Yeah. It felt like it. I was like, well, plus it was a little muddy. So I mean, some of the sections where I think we would have tried to run faster later in the race, you almost. Well, you couldn't, you just were hiking, kind of walking. And so that probably helped too. Yeah. Yeah, that was the interesting thing about this year, because I think when people looked at it from the outside in, it was almost like, okay, this year is going to be fast because you're not dealing with that sort of extreme heat in the early stages. That has always been historically difficult at that event because you sort of have less access to resources given the location of that first 50 K, but you're kind of going through the hottest section of the course. So on a hotter year or even a normal year. It's like you're probably going to get up to Crown King a little bit dehydrated, no matter how good of a job you do. So you're digging yourself out of a hole to some degree, whereas this year it was cool or relatively cooler. Anyway, I'm sure it was still probably a little bit warm during the day. And the kind of the Phoenix or the. Yeah, the earlier stages of the race. But when you guys got up to that, some of those sections where it was like really, really muddy, it was very muddy. It wasn't just like, oh, there's a puddle here and there. Like I remember seeing pictures of like people. Their shoes are just like literally just clogged with, like wet mud. So it's like, you guys definitely had a slow portion of that course relative to other years to where normally the weather would probably be great in that section and harder ground. You could really start cooking there if you had managed yourself. Right? Oh yeah. I mean, everyone's been talking about it, but the fields, there's like the two big pastures, you kind of go through. One's like five miles. The other ones, like seven miles long, kind of. Those were the absolute worst. It was super runnable. It was at night, so, I mean, it would have been a little cooler anyway if it was a normal year, and it was just so muddy that you had to just walk for miles. And it was absolutely just like you said, you would take a couple steps, like 5 or 6 steps, and then you have like an inch and a half of mud underneath your shoe, and you couldn't just, like, shake it off. So then you're scraping your feet on like grass tufts that are interwoven with cactus, and you're just like, please don't nail a cactus right now. But that was another thing, too. I don't know if anyone's said that, but dudes scrape the action of scraping your foot, whether you're pulling it or pushing it off of a like on a rock or something, that kind of gets feeling kind of weird when you're when you're like, you know, like 107 miles into a race, you know, that's kind of a weird muscle to be using when you're supposed to be running and you're like pulling your foot over and over and on stuff. I'm lucky. Like nothing. At one point, the back of my right knee hurt just for a little bit, and I was like, man, please don't start hurting really bad because I have to continually scrape this mud off. So if that hurts, then I'm kind of like relying on the pacer to lean down there and like, scrape the mud off my shoes for me. But luckily it didn't become an issue. But yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Like when you. So when you got started with the race itself, like going in was the goal always. Okay, I'm gonna try to win this thing and set the course record. Or were you just sort of. I'm just going to go there and run what I think is appropriate and see what happens. Yeah. So we had, I mean, I had done the training and I had felt really good. I had ran a hundred miler a few weeks before the race, felt great during it, ran pretty easy and ran 17 hours and then ran 100 miles the next week. And I was like, okay, that's a good way to go into the race. I thought, if I can run 100 miles easily, I could hopefully compete for 250. You know, like if I can run that relatively unfazed, it'd be pretty easy then that's my body's least going in the right direction. And then I kind of started looking at the competition, which I never had really looked at a lot before. And then, a cat just jumped up here. Hold on a second. No worries. Not the first cat that has joined the podcast window. So the window, it's not looking good, but I think she'll be okay. But, Yeah, it, we started looking at the competition, and I was like, well, what's it going to take to like? I wanted to be at least in the top. That's kind of the main goal. I guess it was just to be kind of in the front and run my own race or whatever. And I was kind of thinking, you know, based on my crew chiefs, kind of like calculations on other races. I've done other terrain, the terrain of this race, the elevation per mile and different sections and kind of the terrain, 56 hours would kind of be reasonable. And I was kind of thinking like 55 to 56 hours is kind of what it's going to take to win 57 hours in that time frame, like given who's going to be there. which I guess that's a course record, but I wasn't necessarily thinking of the course record. It was more just like, how do I stay at the top, you know. and so that was kind of the mindset going in. But then you know with the mud and stuff kind of threw a wrench in it. So I wasn't really planning on a course record until probably almost one of the last eight stations. And they're like, dude, you're still like a couple hours up on the course record, like. What are you trying to do? And I'm like, well, I guess if we're this if we've made it this far now, we might as well try to get a course record, you know? Yeah, that's kind of when that happened. But it wasn't necessarily the initial goal. Yeah. It was kind of interesting because it seemed like on the live stream that Harry and Courtney kind of took it out pretty hard. And you were there like you were very much in it, but you weren't like leading the race at that point. And then they both hit their rough patches and then you sort of popped up into the lead. And if I remember correctly, at one point Ryan Sands maybe passed you while you were taking a nap, but then you passed him back later. Then after that when he was taking a nap, and then it was sort of like you just kind of built on your lead from there. Was that kind of how it played out? Yeah, I would say exactly. they took it out really hot, which going into the race, I kind of knew that my weakest section would be the first one, just because I'm. I don't really have a lot of climbing like availability here in Huntington, West Virginia. And so I was like, you know, I think my strong suits are like running through the runnable sections. And then I was kind of banking on the thought that I, I really thought going in, that my mind was going to be good the whole time, like sleep wasn't going to be an issue, like deprivation wasn't going to be a problem, which I had no real data to support that. I just thought that in my own head I was like, dude, there's no way I'll have an issue with that. And so, yeah, I definitely took it easy in the beginning. But like you said, not super easy because you gotta maintain at least some connection there. I didn't want it to get over an hour and a half back from the leader, which I never don't. I don't think I ever was that far back from Harry when he was leading or Courtney. and so that kind of worked out well. And then, yeah, we just slowly kind of moved our way into the front. And I think by mile 95 we were kind of in the front. and then right before Sedona, after I had slept, we passed Ryan Sands again. And then I think we stayed in the front the whole rest of the race. yeah, it was kind of interesting because Harry and Courtney, they, they sort of have a they've been to these longer races before. So I think people were like, okay, we can kind of know what we get from these two when they're on. And then Ryan Sands, obviously he's just been such a fixture in the sport now for quite some time. I think everyone just sort of assumed he's going to if he executes his plan well it's he'll he'll be in it. And then there was you who popped up into that kind of lead group very early. And if I remember I think some I think because you know, they interview you guys during this race, which is when they can and your crews and stuff, which is a really awesome piece to the spectating side of it. And I think they asked you kind of fairly early, like maybe around Jerome or something like that. like what your strategy was. And you were just like, I'm just going to run. Yeah. So that made me curious. I was like, I was curious because, you know, you say things when you're out there and stuff like that. But I was curious if, like with these races like this, I always find, like there's obviously a bunch of logistics and there's almost an unlimited number of things you could try to account for. So you obviously want to make sure you're not putting yourself in a situation where you need something, you can't have it, or you make a big mistake that's hard to recover from. But then there's also like if you over plan and take it too seriously, you start worrying about things that you can't really predict and it just beats yourself up mentally. So I was kind of curious about where you were when you were planning for the race itself, how much thought you gave logistics and things like that, and strategy versus just kind of like what came across on maybe that brief interview of just kind of showed up. Figured, I'm going to just see what I can do. And then whatever happens, happens. Yeah, I would say that's a very that's kind of. I like to not do the bare minimum, but kind of think about the bare minimum. So for a race like this, I mean, never doing one, never having done one. I thought, well, you can only really control what you do beforehand. So I was like, I'll just train as much as I can within reason, and then I will be hopefully prepared on the start line. And I'm lucky to have the crew that I had because they planned all the other logistics of the race as far as flight, Airbnb's driving the shuttle, who's driving when what, like where they're going, how they're getting there. You know who's in charge of what? I just showed up with my nutrition that I was wanting to eat and some ramen and, like, my shoes and clothing and just put them in a bag, and then they just took the rest. I didn't do a whole lot of research on the course, because at the end of the day, you're just pushing the whole you're just moving the whole time to get to the end. So I didn't even really know a whole lot about which aid station was next, or like how long the segments were. I knew when I was in the race because I'd be like, hey, what's the next aid station? How long is it? But I wasn't like, okay, this section has this much gain. And halfway through the terrain turns to this and then turns back to this. I was just like, whatever happens is like, what happens? You're only just traveling to the end. And so that helped, I think just kind of keep all the external noise out and just focus on moving and just continually moving, to the end. And that's what I try to keep. Yeah, that's basically how I did it. I didn't really think a whole lot about it and just focused on, you know, relentless forward progress, as they say. And that's pretty much what I did and just kind of bided my time to get to the later sections, because I figure a race like this, it's like anything, you know, it's like you run a hundred miler, the race doesn't start till like 40 miles left. You know, it's kind of like that type of thing. So I figured with this, the first 100 and some miles doesn't even really matter. I mean, it matters, but everyone there is going to be able to run 100 miles, respectively. So it's really that last hundred or last 150 even. That's where you need to be ready to like to run and move and. Be not tired and kind of focused. So that's kind of how I looked at it, just like one big push. didn't really focus too much on the sections or what one was next or whatever, and just kind of kept moving. when you took the lead back from Ryan Sans, did you like, did you spend some time just sort of trying to find a way to maybe build upon that? And then was there like a point where you were like, okay, I've got a good lead here. Now I just need to, like, maintain, like, what was your what was your kind of headspace like with that? Like after he passed me. Yeah. Once he passed you, did you kind of change the way you were going about things at all? And then when you passed him back, how did you kind of wrap your head around the rest of the race at that point? Yeah, I felt pretty good when he passed me, because when I laid down, I knew that he was going to pass me because I knew he was only, you know, 4 or 5 minutes behind me. He wasn't very far behind me. And so they were like, hey, he's going to pass you, but you should definitely lay down now. And the big thing we kept saying in our crew was like, you know, you invest in your like invest now to get results later in a race like this. So even laying down if you don't even sleep, that's an investment in yourself later. And so it was kind of like, well, let's lay down now and sleep because that's an investment in the race later, you know, when it's a little bit more critical. And so that's what we did. I wasn't too upset about it. I knew he was going to pass me. And then we kind of just took it as normal, like kind of easily like, you know, running where I can run like I was my brother was my brother. And I was kind of making our way back up there. And we caught up to him. him and his pace are relatively quick, like, quicker than I was thinking. And we kind of lingered behind him a little bit, just kind of running easy and seeing about what pace he was running and like how they looked or whatever classic racing strategy. We're like, we got this spy, this guy up, see what's going on. But, and then we were like, okay, let's make the pass or whatever. So we picked it up a little bit on a little downhill and just kind of like Cruise Pass said what's up? And felt really good. And we made a little bit of a gap going into Sedona. I don't think it was much, but I think it was probably like ten minutes maybe or slightly under that. But yeah, that was kind of the plan. Hopefully we could catch him on the next segment and then kind of see where we're at after that. Were you getting updates then from there on about how your gap was improving. Yeah we were. So that's one of the two things I like super. That is one of the two things I'm really interested in while I'm racing is where everyone else is. And how much like pretty much how much time is left. How many, how many, how many climbs we have on each segment. But so we were doing updates. My pacer would have their phone out almost the entire time, checking the live tracker, seeing where everyone was and some of that paranoia. But some of it is also like we had thought going into a race like this, your best bet is kind of, you know, push where you need to push, but then just coast, kind of like relax where you can. So like if I had a big gap on somebody or I was making a gap but not pushing any harder, I'd kind of just keep it that way, you know? And then if someone was getting a little bit closer, we're like, okay, well now we need to push a little for this section or something. So just kind of like modulating your effort based on where everyone else was was more the reason we were kind of checking that. And so that ended up working pretty good. But yeah, we kept eyes on him probably the whole time. Was there a point when you're like okay I've got a big enough lead now I'm gonna win this thing and I go in a little bit more maintenance mode. Or was it sort of the same mindset even though you had started building a lead? I pretty much pushed the whole time until the base of Eldon, I would say until whatever that last aid station is, I can't remember, I want to say Deer Creek, but I don't think that's right. because I did a section, well, not by myself, but there's a section by myself and then a little section with a pacer right before the last aid station to go up. Eldon and I crushed that section by myself pretty good. And I was like, okay, that's nice. And then we did the section with my pacer and then got to the bottom of Eldon, and we were like ten miles ahead of him or something. And I think there I was kind of like, okay, we're gonna take it easy at Belden because we're like 6 or 7 hours ahead, of course, record and. You know, kind of sleepy at this point. So we're just going to get up there. Stay as sturdy as possible. Kind of knowing the descent off Eldon is terrible. And so yeah, that's probably where I took it a little bit easier. But then again, no one's really running up Elden at that point. You know, and it was a really long, kind of windy approach to get to, to get to the base. And then you really start climbing and get to the top. And I wanted to save some effort for the descent, but I didn't really think I for sure had it until we were about halfway down the descent, just because I was like, you know, he might be feeling really good and like, jog some of that. And then I was going really slow down, too. And so I was like, you know, he may catch up and maybe a sprint finish. We may come. We may come into town at the same time. And I kind of was thinking that would be cool. But then also it'd be horribly stressful. Yeah. Yeah. But that urgency kind of stayed intact pretty much through the end of the race. So that's, it sounds like it is the way your headspace was. Yeah. Yeah. What was your strategy for sleeping? Were you kind of just taking it as a that comes or was there like certain spots on the course or like I'm going to just no matter what I'm laying down and trying to take a nap there. so I didn't have an exact sleep strategy, but our sleep plan was like after. So starting at Jerome, which is where I did take my first nap, they're just going to have the bed ready in the car every time. And then if I need to, I'll just lay down. Like, if I feel like I'm really ready to sleep, I'll just lay down there. So that was kind of the plan. No real planned time. It was just kind of, again, like how much time we had. You know, so say I have like a, you know, 3 or 4 mile lead or whatever we could we'd be like, okay, well, we could lay down like 15 minutes or something, and that wouldn't kill us. which I ended up laying down, I think it was like 58 minutes total. And then I think we slept like 20 of it, which kind of checks out to what I thought I would do. I was weirdly in my head. I thought to myself, you know, we might be able to do this without sleep, which after the first day I was kind of like, yeah, I definitely know that I need to take a nap within the next ten hours, probably because that would just be done. You would just be useless, essentially. And so that was kind of the plan. Just have it ready and then keep it short. And try to, you know, stockpile it a little bit earlier, at least after the first day. Yeah. I've asked as many people as I could have done multi-day stuff about like the sleep strategy and try to compare that with the research we do have on the kinds of approaches that are out there. It's mostly on bike racing stuff where you get any of the research, but a lot of the multi-day ultra runners sort of have that same message as you do, where it's like you kind of know it's going to be optimal to sleep at some point like that. Stoppage and rest is going to actually get me to the finish line quicker. But if you get too specific about when you're probably going to waste time because then you end up trying to sleep when you can't, or forcing yourself through a phase where you should just lie down and take a nap and get it over with. But you try to push through because you didn't have it planned there or something like that. So it's almost like one of those things where you have to have a strategy in place that you're going to do it, but be very flexible about when is the way that that would probably be the most consistent theme that I've heard. Yeah, I would agree. That makes sense. I mean, unless you're an expert sleeper, you know, like if you have some gift where you can lay down and make yourself go to sleep instantly, I think you just kind of bide your time until you know that you're super exhausted. Maybe not like, super like on the edge of like passing out for good, but, you know, tired enough to where you're like, okay, if I lay down, I'll probably fall asleep for at least a couple minutes, which we weren't too stressed out about not sleeping when lying down. Just, just kind of go back to our regular theme of like, it's still an investment in the future of the race, like in the later half, latter half of the race, like even just laying down is good. Just getting time off, being horizontal, like letting your blood kind of, you know, do its thing, level out a little bit or whatever, being horizontal does. But so it wasn't too bad, like stress wise. But I would agree that's kind of the best way to do it, at least for me. Yeah. No, I think you're probably on to something. I think there's also a piece to that puzzle where, like when you're racing out there, versus just trying to, like, take things as they come, like, you have, like, a mental fatigue that's just a little bit different. And when that's on, it's like this constant theme that's just running kind of in the background at the very least, if not the forefront of your mind. And sometimes I find like with those really short breaks, it's like you gave yourself a break from actually focusing on that. And even if that's just a few minutes, it's like when you start back up, you're like, okay, I sort of kind of rebooted that, that focus side of things, and then you can kind of take it, take that challenge on again versus it feeling. It's almost like a mental interval session where it's like you can go further at that same intensity. If you had minor little breaks in there. And like I, I've noticed this with shorter races, like 100 milers where I mean, I've done 100 miles, where I've stopped for like less than a minute or two during the race itself when they're on these track type settings. And even in those, when I do stop, it's usually to use the bathroom. And every time I do it, I realize, oh, that was kind of a mental reset. I feel so much. It's so much easier to focus now after that. So then I started thinking like, okay, maybe don't resist the bathroom breaks as long as possible. Obviously be strategic with them to some degree, cause you don't want to have a ton of nonmoving time, but they have their value. And I think when you start weighing in, like all those different systems that are kind of operating and how a short break kind of impacts them, you start kind of connecting some of those dots. Yeah, that is true. I mean, I had thought about that after the race as well. It's funny. I hadn't really thought about it again from now to now, but it was definitely like a mental break, especially for me because I was just thinking, not really thinking about a whole lot of anything, but. It's kind of nice to not be thinking about the race because you're just laying in the back of a van, you know, with an eye mask on. Sometimes you're just back there, you know, whatever. It's like, you don't have to be doing anything. And it is kind of refreshing just that. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a specific fueling strategy that you were trying to use during the race itself? of trying to hit certain types of foods or carbohydrate totals or anything like that, or was that a little more intuitive? That was I mean, I guess initially going in, I was kind of like, you know, I knew I probably wasn't going to be pushing like javelina type nutrition just because I don't think you could probably eat like 100 carbohydrates an hour for 58 hours. I mean, I guess you could, but it might cause a little GI distress because to do that, you're still doing a lot of gels and a lot of liquid stuff. But yeah, I mean, I was trying to eat gels consistently. I started out just kind of like my standards, which would be like Morton's and, and Precision Gel and drinking those and then like tailwind SIP and tailwind pretty consistently like a little bit higher carb ratio of it. And that was good. I mean, for the first probably day or so or almost the whole day. And then I stopped being able to eat well, I was eating some solids to like, Morton solids, like just like things like that. I wasn't taking a bunch of weird stuff with me. The only weird thing I was taking with me in the beginning was oatmeal cream pies. Just because they're soft. Yeah, easy to eat. And I love them. And I've been training with them. So I was like, all right, I'll just keep eating those and. But nothing really particular was kind of just like what? As much as I can get down, I knew it would be reasonable. You know, I wouldn't overconsume where I got sick, but I was like, you need to be consuming stuff regularly. Towards the middle end of the race, it was kind of more just like Mortons and just oatmeal creme pies and kind of like stuff like that. and then really, my big thing was I was going to eat a lot of food at the aid stations. So I like hot food. And I was kind of really that's one of the I guess I'm really lucky. Like, my stomach is pretty good. Like, I can just eat stuff like real food during the race. And it's not a problem, especially at this intensity. It's not nearly as hard, you know. And so ramen was on the way on the meal plan for most aid stations, like cup of noodles. Just classic. And then whatever protein they would have there, just because I knew I kind of had to be like eating some protein or should at least or try. And so that was kind of an issue sometimes just because we would beat the aid station. And so, my crew would have to scrounge around gas stations, Denny's, McDonald's, wherever they could get food. So I ate a couple, like, gas station burritos warmed up in the microwave because there was no food at the aid station. I ate a Denny's burger at one point, like a McDonald's breakfast, which I've never had I had never eaten in my entire life. So that was the first, And then. Yeah, I just like bacon cheeseburger again in Sedona and some pancakes. So I guess the big focus is as far as, like. That concern is just trickling in nutrition throughout the run like standard. And then at the aid station eating as much as I could. and able to do that the whole time, which I was really happy with. That's right. I had forgotten about that, that the lead group kind of outpaced the aid stations just due to how fast everyone was moving compared to what you'd seen in the past, past year or so. And then that's actually like a really important piece to the puzzle because of the aid stations they have at these, these 200 like at er but they're great aid stations, like when they're set up, like they have all sorts of stuff in there. Like you wouldn't have to probably ever venture outside of what their offerings are. But if you get there before any of that set up, yeah, you're, you're scrounging for convenience stores or like you said, getting McDonald's and Denny's or whatever's available. That's what we were doing. That's all we had. So it was nuts, which after the one burrito, that's when I had. So I had a lot of issues a couple of years ago. Well, like a year and a half ago with swelling. I was taking way too much salt and I didn't know it. And then I got a sweat test done and I was like, yeah, I don't need that much salt. And so I was taking in like the classic like almost 1000mg, you know, a liter or whatever on hot days. But I only sweat like 635 mg of sodium or whatever. So that made sense. And so I switched that. So I'm kind of susceptible to a ton of salt, especially this year with coconut. It wasn't super hot, but I ate this burrito. It had like 1000 mg of salt in it. And then with all the other stuff I was taking, like, that's what my hands swelled a little bit. Luckily, nothing else did because sometimes back in the day, my knees would swell up and feel kind of weird, even. But especially my hands and like. Which doesn't really affect your running. It just is kind of weird and uncomfortable, and you're like, you're like, what the heck is wrong with my hands? So that happened after that burrito, but that was it. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. So you were able to, of course, correct just by kind of pulling back on electrolytes, maybe for a while for sure. Who just drank some more water and kind of wrote it out. Yeah. Yeah. There's so much going on there. I mean it's interesting. Like my sweat tests are similar to yours I think. I'm like 614 mg/l. So if I get too aggressive with electrolytes compared to the average person or a high sweater, then I get that same experience. I start noticing, oh, yeah, my fingers are starting to get puffy and start getting a little more thirsty than you normally would. And, yeah. And it's just a wild spot because, I mean, when you look at the range, I mean, the range is from, like freakishly low, like below us where, like someone, some people are like 2 or 300 mg/l, which just I, I'm just like, these people must never eat salt. Like, it's just like, must never touch a salt shaker. Like it's just whatever's in the food. They probably get enough of it. And then there's, I had, Andy Blow in the podcast a couple of years ago. He's the precision fuel and hydration guy, and he was telling me he was the exact opposite. He was like, I think he said he registered at over 2g /l, so he's like three x us. Well, that and not to interrupt you, but I think David Roche posted a thing and it was like 3200mg. Yeah, I don't know. Do I feel like you might want to get a couple more tests? That seems kind of high. Yeah, it is a false high, dude, I don't know, but if it works, it works. You know, if you're taking that in and not getting sick or something, it's obviously right. But yeah. Yeah, there is. You know, there is some interesting stuff to consider too. I also had Alyssa Clarke on and she had the sweat test done, and I don't remember what her results were. I think they were like in the nine hundreds. But she also has ulcerative colitis. So they found out that her body wasn't processing all of that. So even though she required like I think it was like 900 mg/l, she actually has to take in closer to like 1500 because she's her body is only going to absorb like the, a fraction of what she takes. So it gets a little bit goofy at the individual level at times. But I think like if you kind of use like some general protocols, like what you described to where it's like if you start out at the recommendations and you notice your fingers are puffing, getting puffy, and you're getting extra thirsty, you probably stands to reason you're losing a lot less you're putting in or or if you're getting like really lightheaded after runs and things like that, even though you're like following the recommendations perfectly, then yeah, maybe there's a chance that you're a little bit on the higher side and could start benefiting from adding a little bit more. But it is funny how there's that big of a range, but we all end up on these same starting lines. That's it. That's a huge range for some. I mean, that's, you know, almost 2000mg different, you know, which is insanity to me. But I guess that checks out. You know, some people are, you know, just inherently better and like different conditions and some it could be your electrolyte loss, you know. Yeah. Yeah, it gets interesting too, because like, if you look at fluid loss rates then too, that can vary. So like if I look at my wife Nicole and my results, she loses closer to a gram per liter. So you would think okay, she needs more electrolytes than I do. But if we actually go out in similar conditions and go for a run, I'm going to lose way more fluid than she will at any given hour. So even though I need less electrolyte per liter of sweat, I'm just sweating so much more than she is that I actually end up taking in more electrolytes than she does. and I wonder about that sometimes, too, from like an efficiency standpoint, because you have like a year at Coca-Cola where it's like hotter temps in those early stages, and it is sort of a battle of like, I need to get in as much as I can, and that's not going to be quite enough if you start seeing folks that are maybe on the lower end of the need side, just doing a little better on those years, because they can weather that storm a little bit better than, say, someone who needs way more fluid or way more electrolytes and end up at Crown King just a little bit more wrecked because of that. Definitely. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting stuff. So I mean, it's pretty early. So maybe you had it planned out at the beginning of the year, but do you, what do you have coming up next? So I'm on the waitlist for Western states. I got oh, are you okay? Wow. Cool. I was 26, and now I'm two spots away, so, I'm pretty sure I'll be going to Western June 20th. Yeah. So that's coming up. So I'm kind of like, full blown recovery for like two weeks and then, you know, get some track work in. I guess that's what the cool kids are doing. So I'll do some speed work for two weeks or so and then just taper and go. And no real expectations. Kind of. I mean, there's no way I could have any on myself just because it's so close to Kokoda that I may feel okay. But I know that for a race like that, you'd want to train 6 or 8 months just for that race. And so it's kind of like, I don't want to hold myself to any goals, any lofty goals or anything going in, just kind of a do the best I can, obviously, and feel as good as I can on the start line and, you know, try to stay up there with everybody. And I think best case scenario, I, I snake somehow into a top ten position, you know, given the people who are going to be there, I'm sure the front is going to be insane. And so kind of like, you know, maybe I bide my time and somehow find my way to the top in 10th position, and that'd be really sweet. That'd be like, best case scenario. but more just a reconnaissance race. And then we have a local 100 K here. Hurricane 100 K that I do every year, and it's fun and close. It's like 30 minutes from my house. They've got a lot of nice trails up there and big prize money too. It's like 2500 bucks for first place, so. Oh, nice. We go every year. Of course. fun race. And then I think I'm going to sign up for it. Well, I'm going to sign up for JFK too, and do that. Oh. Right on. Never done it. Yeah. Oh, that one's too. It's like being close to my parents. They live in southern Pennsylvania, so it's kind of close. And, Yeah, I want to do that. Kind of get some more speed work in, because that's one of the goals next year is just kind of stay fast in the 100 mile distance. And then also probably do another 200 for sure. And so that's kind of the outlook I'm not sure 100% what races everything will be. But that's kind of what we're thinking. That is really interesting because it's like, yeah Western States. Obviously you take that opportunity when it comes regardless of whether you've done Kokoda or not. I think it's going to be interesting though because it's sort of like I, I used to live just outside of Auburn and I would, I would talk to a lot of the guys, the locals there who've been following the sport forever, and they would always say, like, it goes through these iterations where people think like, okay, you know, you have to run this fast in order to be in the top ten or this is the way that you got to do it. This is the new normal. And then you'll have something weird happen, whether it's weather related or just people getting out a little too fast up front and drawing more people than normal out. And then you have these scenarios where there's just an implosion in the front end of the field, and then you get people going from like 25th at Forest Hill into the top ten. Exactly. and it's like we're going to have one of those years eventually, and maybe it's this year, and your race strategy and sort of attitude towards it will yield a return spot for the following year where you can properly peak for it. Yeah. I mean, that'd be a best case scenario. No, my hopes are not up. not expecting it, but that would be the best case scenario. Cool. Well, you'll be dangerous just because of that headspace, I think. Maybe we'll see. We'll see. We won't put pressure on you. We'll let you relish the crown as long as you need. So, plus, David's doing a good job of taking the pressure off of most people with all of his Western states content right now. So he's putting it out there. Awesome. Yeah. JFK will be a fun one too, for you too. I think that's always a fun race for people to get into, because it's such a unique course where you go over the Appalachian section early on, but then from there it's just an absolute racetrack. So I think you'll probably like that balance. I think so. I'm looking forward to it. That's what I've always wanted to do. I just never kind of I never fit it in, just especially with Javelina the last two years, it's kind of like not really in the cards just because it's too close. but this year I don't know. Not sure if I'm going to do Javelina again, yet, but that means I can do JFK. Yeah. Does that depend slightly on how Western states go? Because I assume maybe you were going to Havana because it's just a great competitive race nowadays, but it's also a golden ticket race. And given that you were fourth and third, it seems like you're kind of right in there from a contention to getting that ticket to Western states through that event. I mean, yes and no. I mean, I just like the distance. I like the course I think fits me really well. It's kind of like my dream 100 mile trail course. So that 's the reason I liked it. And then. Yeah, it's a golden ticket race, which is good for a lot of reasons. But, yeah, I guess I'd like to go to Western States again next year. So hopefully that's somehow, But I'm not, like, super stressed out about it either. Like, I'll go eventually again. And, there's other races you can go to that are worth it. So I'm not too, too stressed about making it to Western states next year, I guess. Cool, awesome. Yeah, you're right on. It's easy to get fixated on one particular event for one reason or the other, but at the end of the day, there's just a complete dearth of awesome events out there that you can always target. So we definitely have no shortage of fun opportunities in the landscape of ultrarunning right now. Yeah. Have you considered anything like, some of these, like, backyard type races or something like that after. Well, yeah, that's kind of, you know, like, always interested me, especially early. Like, I was kind of cool with learning about, you know, like older six day events, like crazy indoor stuff. Like, I think that's just really interesting. I did a backyard once when I first started running. Actually, my first ultra was like a 24 hour race around a two mile slug. It was around a two mile flood wall, and it was, like concrete. And I had been training for a 50 K, and then it got canceled due to like, land problems and like Covid and stuff. And so I was kind of mad about that. And so then I looked up the same weekend, what was another race? And it was this 24 hour race around a two mile loop. I was like, okay, that's what I'm going to do. And my mindset going into that was, I'm going to run until I can't run anymore or stand. And I accomplished that. And to this day, even after coconut, that was the worst I've ever felt at a race. The last loop that I did, it took me 45 minutes to go two miles on a flat asphalt loop. I only made it 90 miles. It took me 18 and almost 19 hours, but it's still, to this day, the worst I've ever felt. It was absolutely terrible. The 24 hours. An interesting event. I've had nothing but failure at it. It's just like one of those things where it's like, I haven't solved that riddle for myself. Ironically, I've had some very successful coaching clients do well at it and make great improvements, but I haven't been able to apply that to my own efforts yet. But yeah, when it goes bad on those short loop courses like that, when you've got nothing but time to look forward to, it can get pretty ugly out there. So I can appreciate that. It's one where I think it takes a couple cracks at it. Do you think you'll do another 24 hours in the future? I mean hopefully. Or something like something like that. I think it would be fun to do. that one I was totally unprepared for. I mean, I was not training for it, I was, I didn't even think I was running like, mileage really, yet. I was running maybe 75 to 90 miles a week. You know, sometimes less than that every here and there. So the feet were just not even close to prepared for the. Slaughter I was about to put them through, you know, so I ended it. I ended it in a pair of, like, sandals. I was like, I can't even wear shoes right now. but I would like to do it again. I think it would be a lot more fun now. Yeah, I think you would. You would improve upon your previous experience by quite a bit. It'd be interesting to see, Yeah, you did remind me of something. What kind of mileage are you hitting these days? Or. I think on the livestream, they were saying that you peaked at, like, 150 miles or something like that, but I never know what to believe when you hear the live feed stuff. Yeah, that's kind of like for, like getting ready for the last probably like year and a half, two years running like, you know, 85 to 130 miles a week, give or take. Sometimes a little higher, sometimes a little lower. And then this year, right after Javelina kind of amping that up to like, you know, the occasional 90 mostly 100 and then up to 160. So a lot of like, you know, one 2130s, one 40s, and then a two times I went to 160 that included like, some walks in there too. So it's like, you know, whatever. but it was pretty close to 160 up, just straight running. And so that's kind of what the mileage looked like. I think it was this year alone, I think from January to the start line, I'd run like 2200 miles. And so I was pretty, like, confident in life, my feet and everything because nothing had bothered me. And that's another thing too, like training for this where I wasn't doing, you know, like two workouts a week and, you know, longer workout sessions and then also keeping the mileage, like pretty, pretty lofty. Nothing really, like, hurt. Like typically I get ready for a race and then right before I start tapering, I'll have something that's kind of been nagging me and I'm like, I hope that this taper completely fixes this because it feels kind of sketchy. Like, you know how that is. It's like something bothering you and you're like, please don't be an injury. But I think the way it feels, if I taper, it will feel okay. Where that's pretty much been the last couple of races I've done. And for this one, I didn't really have any of that just because it was just a different intensity level. so that was nice, but that's kind of what the mileage looked like, looked like going in. And I wanted to get one of the big things I switched after Javelina to get ready for this race was just, just general training time. So I did a lot of stair climbing initially. Like in the first couple months, I would do stair climber 4 to 5 times a week, sometimes more than that for like an hour at a time. at a pretty good clip, like a pretty good pace going on that thing. And that was mostly just to like. Just get extra time in zone two because they're climbers. Great. You get your heart rate to like 120 and just like, keep it there for an hour and you're not running. So the impact is not as bad. And it's helping my hip flexors get strong and my, my glutes and stuff like that. It doesn't translate exactly to running up a slope because it's like your foot's in a different position, but it still helps. and then so that was kind of the biggest addition, but that was to get my hours per week from like 16 to 18 to up in the 20s, sometimes like 25, 26 hours a week of training. And so that was pretty good. A couple times I got near 30 hours a week of training. But, fitting that in around working is kind of like you're getting home at like 8: 30 at like 8:00 at night and you're eating dinner at like 8: 30, 9:00 every night, and you're just like, this is ridiculous. Yeah. You're just eating, sleeping and working at that point. So you want to speak like that, but you don't want to make that the norm? No. Sure. And it's probably more sustainable just making that your peak too. But it's a great point though. It's like when you start getting to like the volumes that you've hit historically. It's like adding more running miles. You know, you're going to take on the additional risk of the pounding of that for very little incremental gains. But like you get on like a stair step or a bike or some of these low impact modalities. And it's like, yeah, you can, you can, you can amplify that exposure to that low intensity stuff and, and really build up a strong aerobic system around that sort of thing. So I think that'll be interesting . I think we've already seen that in ultrarunning. But I don't know that it's ever really been formalized to include things other than just like you get people just doing it kind of intuitively like there will be ski mountaineering or something. And then they're also trail runners. So they have these really massive training volume weeks sometimes when they're able to kind of get the impact off. But I think we see more of that probably as time goes on and as these really long races like cocoa don't start to get more popular. Yeah, I think you definitely have to. I mean, I just don't know if that actually builds like fatigue resistance, but in my head it kind of does. And it's like kind of back to my initial training for ultras is just as much as you can do without getting hurt. and you got to incrementally get to that, you know? So it's been like, you know, a couple of years in the making, getting to where I can do whatever now and not get, like, hurt. but yeah, the more stuff you can add in. And the nice thing too, if you're doing a couple hours of stair climber or whatever elliptical or some other type of cross training, then you're to get the mileage. You end up just having to run longer runs. So instead of running like. 12 miles in the morning and like 8 or 9 miles in the evening, I would just go ahead and run like 18 miles in the morning and then like four miles in the evening, and then do stair climber. You know, stuff like that. We were getting up a lot earlier, too. I was instead of waking up at like 545, six, I was getting up at like four. And so you can run a little longer and run a little slower and it makes you longer, your runs longer, which I think is good too. Just being out there for longer, like doubles, is great. I will always probably double a lot just because I like them. I like the way it feels and I like the schedule of it. But I think for races like Coco Dona, just like doing the long run. If you do, I think it's great to get, you know. 315 mile plus runs plus a long run on the weekend, like maybe that's 25 or 30 miles. That's pretty good, like running volume all on one run, which I think is important too. Yeah. Yeah, I know it sounds like you're checking a lot of the boxes and kind of like thinking about all these different things, which, I find, like when people get a little too one dimensional with something, that's where maybe weaknesses start to kind of flare up or, things get neglected. So it'll be really interesting to kind of see how things kind of progress with your career. I know you're you're you're not even at your 100 mile peak yet, so. Oh thank you. Lots of fun stuff to come. Yeah. You've got probably a whole nother decade before you get there, so. Yeah, I hope so. Man, I'd love to do this for another ten, 15 years. You know, if I can. That's the goal. So. It's kind of awesome. It's kind of crazy to even think that you can do that, but I mean, you totally can. I mean, you guys kill it. So I don't know how old you are, but how old are you? I'm 39. Yeah, that's insane, because, I mean, you've just had a last year. Did you just run? You did a pretty fast hundred last year, right? Or was it a couple years? Yeah, I did an 11. 1150 was a 51 I think 51 or 52. Yeah. I know I saw that it was sub 12 and I was like, dude, that's insane. Yeah. You know. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. It's. Well, and the other thing too is like, I think we've seen this as well. Like if you look at Alexander Sorokin when he broke the 100 mile world record, and, and the 24 hour world record for that matter, he was in his 40s. So, Yeah, I think, like, it's you you sort of hit this spot, I think, where you've got like, like in your case, when you're that age, you're going to have a couple of decades worth of aerobic development. And the pace and intensity for even a fast hundred miles is really low compared to your upper limit. So even if you lose a little bit of that top end, just your experience and knowledge of pacing and proper fueling and whatever else comes along from an improvement standpoint between now and then, is probably going to outweigh any small degradation you have for the top end of things. And then it's just, yeah, you can get out there and grind and run some pretty fast ultras, I think. So, yeah. Just stay healthy as best you can. That's usually the path forward. Yeah. That's true. Stay healthy and interested. That's pretty good. That pretty much goes. Yeah, you gotta do that. You gotta, you know, drink your water and eat your vegetables and. Yeah, all the good stuff. Right? Yeah. So. Well Dan, where can folks find you? Do you have a website, Instagram or anything like that? I have an Instagram. It's just Dan is green. should be a picture of me if it looks similar to this. And then we have started like a little YouTube channel hopefully putting some stuff on there. Just I have a video of my race that my buddy Ryan put together. It's called Bargain Boys, Bargain Boys Media because we're a bargain dude. You know, we don't have any sponsors yet. And we were doing stuff. So I mean, we're pretty much doing it for free. but. So yeah, you get on there. I have a little we've put together a video. Well, Ryan put together a video of the race, and it's pretty cool. It's not anything crazy, but it's really good for an iPhone. Dude, it looks pretty. It's pretty good. We like it. nice. But that's it. I'll link both of those into the. Yeah. Go ahead. Oh, sorry, I didn't mean. No. You're good. I was going to say I'm on Strava too. That's my preferred form of social media. So, Perfect. Find me there. Yeah, we can check out all the cool training inputs that you're up to over there. But yeah, I'll link all that stuff to the show notes too. I'll have to go check out that YouTube video. I love those, those sort of like live in the moment type recordings and stuff like that. It's, it's always good to, kind of see what's happening when you're in the thick of it. Yeah, it's funny to watch. It was nice because my girlfriend didn't get to go. She's in her third year of medical school here at Marshall, and her schedule is, like, tight. So, she wasn't able to come out, but it was nice to be able to rewatch the video with her. And it's kind of like, you know, which you've had videos of stuff you've done probably before. And it's kind of cool that you have something like that solidified in time that you can kind of go back and look at. Yeah, you know, even if it's no doubt, you know, long, short, good or bad, it doesn't matter. Like just having some footage of it somewhere is awesome. No doubt. No doubt. Awesome. Dan, well, thanks a bunch for taking some time to chat. It was fun to learn a little bit more about your training lifestyle and then Kokoda stuff and what you got coming up. Yeah, dude. Thanks. Thanks for having me on.