Episode 437: Backyard Ultras with Sam Harvey

Sam Harvey is one of the best Backyard Ultra runners in the World. He was part of the legendary push that resulted in three men breaking the World Record at the Big’s Backyard Ultra Championships in 2023. He has a wide range, which he recently showcased by winning the Tarawera 100 mile this year.

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Timestamps/Topics:

00:00:00 Backyard Ultra: The Rise of a Grueling Challenge

00:04:27 The Art of Loop Strategy in Ultramarathons

00:09:10 Long-Distance Running Strategies for Endurance and Recovery

00:14:25 Transitioning to Night Loops: A Runner's Experience

00:18:56 Optimizing Nutrition During Ultramarathons

00:23:39 Finding the Right Fuel Balance for Ultra Running

00:28:00 Upcoming Event: Australian Backyard

00:32:41 Harvey's Mind Games in Ultramarathons

00:37:36 The Evolution of Running Footwear

00:42:00 Strategy in 100-Mile Races

00:46:19 Breaking Records: My Strategic Pursuit

00:50:53 Japanese Runners' Challenge and the Heat in New Zealand

00:55:55 Transitioning Training for Ultra Endurance Events

01:01:13 Importance of Diet in Ultra-Endurance Training

01:05:01 Injury and Upcoming Races

01:10:04 How Zach Uses HPO Sponsors

Episode Transcript:

Yeah it was. I was excited to chat with you. It was actually kind of funny. At the beginning of the year, I started using crayons, and I'm building up for a hundred miler in June that I'm gonna try to take a pretty big swing at. So I was just dialing everything in at the start of the year. I started working with them, and they were just telling me about some of the athletes on the roster and like, you know what? And we were just talking about the podcast as well, and they were just like, you know, you should check out Sam Harvey. He seems like he'd be a good guest for your podcast. And then when they said that, I was like, oh, that's awesome, because I was following the Backyard Ultra that you did when Harvey, Louis and I'm blanking on the third gentleman's name all kind of like a yeah, yeah, yeah, had such an epic throwdown. And I wouldn't say that that that type of event wasn't already on the map in the ultra world, but that event really pushed it up in terms of like people, I think starting to starting to really wrap their head around like, oh man, how far can people push these backyard ultras if you get some competitive pressure inside of them? No, I totally agree. It was a crazy event. big, big unknown for me. And I'm not sure if I will. I'm not sure if I will ever run a race where I kind of push the needle as far as I did on that one, like it was going, going into the unknown. And, man, I, I would say that's one of the closest points to death I've ever been. Like, I lost more than 10% of my body weight, and I was not in a good way for a very long time. Yeah, yeah. I wonder if you probably have thought about this, but like, had you been in that race and it was just you versus two other guys kind of pushing, like how much sooner maybe you would have pulled the plug on it? Yeah, I mean at the end of the day, like I was, I was going to that race to set a world record. So I knew it. I knew it was the time and the place, and all the pieces were in that all the pieces were in the right place, like Phil Gore. Best in Australia. Harvey Louis best in America at the time. Still best in America. And, and then me best in New Zealand, which wasn't saying much at that point in time. Like I was number one in New Zealand, but I was still like ranked 60th or 70th in the world. so I hadn't really like. Gotten up there as far as my loop count was, was concerned. So my my PB was at the, at the team's championship or the, the world team's championship the year before, and that was a 46 loop PB and and then going into Kalgoorlie that year, I did 101. So I more than doubled my PB. So it was just a matter of trusting my trusting my processes, trusting, trusting all my systems and trusting my body and just knowing that, righto, just replicate what I already do. Loop after loop and yeah, take it to 100 or more. Yeah, yeah, it's it's such an interesting structure to me because obviously you got to complete the loop within the hour, but you don't really get any incentive for going faster than you need to. So it's like you, you kind of got to give yourself a little time, especially when you're getting into like the number of days that you guys were out there to take care of yourself between loops. But it's also one of those things where it's it's got like elements of some of the other ultramarathon events, but it also has like this, I think, like almost like a little bit of a reduction in what is required from a top end speed standpoint and then whatever. Yeah. But then just like the mental and physical resilience component of ultramarathon, it just like really zones in on that aspect of the sport because, I mean, you got to deal with so much when you're out there for 400. And what was it? How many miles did you guys go? Is like, is it same amount or kilometers is probably what you're thinking. Yeah. 677 km was the world record that I matched at the time. And, yeah, the speed factor and the 4.167 miles or the 6.7km loop. An hour really rains it in on a on a on a speed perspective. And also allows for a very diverse range of runners. Like you do have some super athletes doing the sport like you have some fast guys, but then you also have some guys that are just older, wiser, more experienced, and they're happy to just churn out very slow laps for days and days at a time. So you have that full spectrum, and I think it's one of those things kind of like maybe 24 hour, 48 hour and six day races where you, you have these guys that are just much more stubborn and weathered by life, and they're just happy to chug along and suck it up and not go very fast. And so, like some of these guys that I've run with at the World Championship, they're running some very slow loops for days at a time. And as a result they're not getting any sleep. And so like you get four days. Down the track of no sleep, and also like taxing your body with running for great distances. And yeah, the mind starts to fall apart because obviously you haven't got that recovery component. But then there's other runners like myself, like Phil Gore in particular, where we like to run faster. He's been running fast, fast loop back out ultras for a very long time, and I've kind of adapted to that, learning that 10 to 15 or even 20 minutes of sleep is much nicer than like 32nd to 62nd micro naps for days at a time. Like it is, it's a much more effective way of recovery. So we're willing to physically tax our body a little bit harder in order to get that, get that greater risk component. Yeah, that's actually an interesting point. I was out at the Coca-Cola 250 last year. I wasn't running it, but I was coaching some athletes that were there. And then after the race, I was talking to Mike McKnight and Jeff Browning, who, you know, they haven't done any backyards that I'm aware of, but they've done some of these 200 milers. And they were saying, I think it was Mike was telling me he's like, you sort of have like three types of naps. There's like the 62nd or less, there's the 15 to 20 minute and then there's like the 60 to 90 minute and he's like, they all sort of have their purpose. But as you go up like he was, the way he was saying is like, if you decide to do the really short one, like the 32nd, 62nd nap, you might feel better after that, but it returns back to what you were before very quickly. The 1520 kind of has a little bit of a longer effect, and then the 69 has a really long effect. So it's not necessarily saving time by going with really short naps, because you might have to end up taking a bunch of them versus being able to stave it off a little bit longer or something slightly longer. Obviously, in the context of what you're doing, you're probably limited to 15 minutes or less. I would imagine, given just you have to start the loop every hour. But I would be curious about how you kind of plan sleeping within that. Yeah, really. It really depends. Like I think I've become much better at sleeping. I used to religiously run 52 minute loops, and that would give me eight minutes to kind of come in, sleep, drink. Eight. Change shoes or socks. Do anything that I need to do and then get back out there. And I and I worked out that like eight minutes is more than sufficient to do everything that you need to do. And that's how I ran the 101 loops. but then during that 101 loops, like, I knew I was tired. Like your body is falling apart, your mind is falling apart. And, I think it was like on the fourth night I experimented with, like, a couple of faster loops, and I went from having, like, 1 or 2 minute naps to. I think I might have had a ten or if, yeah, at least ten, maybe even 15 minutes. And, and I, and I woke up from there and you know how like when you're running at night and you've got your light on and maybe you're tired, you kind of lose a bit of depth perception. You, you can't see all the, all of the little minute details in the road or in the track. And I found it immediately after I'd had that much longer sleep. I woke up and I had depth perception, like everything was in high resolution. I was like, oh, whoa, that was effective. And like, that was my turning point. I was like, oh, I want to run fast loops from now on. Like, this is so much better for my brain and for my body. so yeah, I've gone from being like a 52 minute loop guy, and I raced and won a lot of backyards doing that to now, like, provided the course allows for it because obviously like a gnarly, a gnarly course with lots of undulation and twists and turns, you're going to have to run it a bit slower or you're not. You're not going to be able to run it as fast. I will try and run kind of in the mid 40s, mid 40s. And then that allows me a good bit of rest. I found that at Big's, which is the world championship at Laser's place in Tennessee. The de loop is about as gnarly as I have ever seen in a backyard ultra. Like its single track. It's twists, it's turns, it's rocks. It's like jumping off things and, like, you've got to be locked in. There's no switching off. Like, you've got to be looking where you're going the whole time. And it's quite mentally taxing to do so. And even if you're locked in, you're probably still going to hit the dirt or hit the rocks at some point, like we had guys in the last World championship, like hitting their heads, like, all covered in blood because they'd hit themselves on the rocks. so that's a slower, slower day loop. It might be in the late 40s to well into the 50s for those loops. But then you get onto the night course and it's a very, very smooth Tennessee country road. It's a long out and back and. I think my slowest loop on the de loop at Biggs was 56 minutes, and it was the slowest loop I'd ever done, so I was getting a little bit panicky. But it was the last, last loop of the fourth day, and everybody was pretty stuffed at that point. But then the next loop, we went on to the first loop of the night, and I went from running a 56 minute loop to running a 39 minute loop, and then I got 15 minutes, at least 15 minutes of sleep and and then time to also eat and drink and do everything that I needed after that. so that's that's kind of my scenario, but, The, the balancing point is trying to go fast enough to get a bit of rest and recuperation and maybe just have a sit down, reset, eat, hydrate, do everything you need to do, but then also not going so fast that you're going to destroy yourself mechanically and then like kind of, yeah, have a have a strain or an injury that's eventually going to be exacerbated over the course of three or 4 or 5 days. Yeah, yeah, that's all fascinating. Do you think the reason you are so much faster on that first loop of the night route on day four was because you had just kind of been like, you kind of get lulled into a bit of a sense of, or maybe it's a lack of sense of urgency after you've been doing something over and over, real repetitive, and then you get some change stimulus, it can be something super trivial, and then all of a sudden, like, you realize how much energy you actually have. And it was just kind of breaking the monotony of whatever it was you're doing before that resulted in that. I think you said 38 minute laps. Yeah, yeah. So I mean, like there's a multitude of factors, like the novelty is a big one, novelty, big one because eventually you get bored, eventually, like, I don't know, you might forget what you're doing. Like there's, there's a number of people that over like the course of 4 or 5 days, they forget what, what they're doing. They forget why they're there. And yeah. So just changing onto the night loop, it's quite nice. It's a lot more forgiving on the body. It's quite enjoyable to run that first, night loop at Big's because the sun is just setting, so, like, you're on a nice open country road, looking over meadows like there was a. There was a harvester working in the field, on the nights that we were nights or the days that we were running. And so it's quite picturesque and it's just. Yeah, it's an enjoyable place to be. So it's a lot easier to run that where you get onto that de loop and, and slog it out for I think, I think it was we were doing 11, 11 hours on the de loop and 13 hours on the night loop. I think it was just because we were going that the days were getting shorter and we were sitting in full. Yeah, and that's my bet. I was thinking of it the other way around when you said you did the 38 minute loop, my mind went till you jumped onto the trail section versus the road section. That makes a lot more sense that it was going from the day trail to the night road one just from just going faster in general on a path like that. But yeah, I think, there's a lot of, there's a lot of variables in this stuff. I'd be I'd be curious too, just like, nutritionally what you're doing this whole time because I imagine there's stuff that you do that you're like, all right, I know this sort of works for me, but then when you're out there for that long, there has to be a little bit of just kind of impromptu ness with. All right, well, that kind of actually looks good right now, or I'm craving that right now. How did you even begin to plan nutrition and hydration and all that stuff for something this long and kind of complex? Yeah, I honestly, I, I made it up for, for a fair period of time and I guess I had like it right to a, to a pretty decent base level to get me through. And so I knew that I had to have fluid and electrolytes every hour. but as far as volumes as far as actual targets went, like, I didn't really know. So for a good number of backyard ultras right into, like, running the world record. I was just doing like 500ml, like a soft flask with some drink powder in it. And, yeah, that was giving me maybe like 20g of carbohydrate and like, I don't know, 150mg of sodium or 200mg of sodium. And, and then I was eating, eating food on the side and trying to, like, pretty regularly eat food. But we were, like, making things up. Like there was all sorts of, like, different concoctions going, going down the throat. And, it wasn't until like, just before I went to Biggs that I linked up with, my dietitian and she, like, broke down everything that I had been, eating and drinking in these races. And basically, like, I was at max hitting what I should have been by about half like I was. I was maybe averaging 45 to 50g of carbohydrate an hour for like 100 hours for four plus days at a time. And, as far as sodium goes, I was probably getting a third to a quarter of the amount of sodium that I needed. So hence why my feet and my hands blew up to ridiculous sizes. And, also I lost more than 10% of my body weight during that race. but since then, we've made adaptations and kind of, like, set targets. In an ideal race, and I think I had a pretty good, pretty ideal race at, the Satellite Championship that we just had or the teams championship that we just had in October gone and, and I'll rely on real food for as long as possible. So I'll like a lot of sandwiches. a lot of noodles. A lot of rice. yeah. Actual food with, like, some micronutrients. Just not just the processed macros. but then also like, hitting gels as an option, like, I think I roughly average about 20 to 30 gels. whether it's like a 40 hour backyard ultra right up to like 100, 100 our backyard ultra. And yeah, just pretty much what we've got it to the point of is I'm hitting like 600 to 1000 mg of sodium every hour. I'm hitting 500 to 1000 mils of fluid every hour. And then I've got like, I've obviously got my carb heavy drink mix and, and that, whatever it may be at the time. And that's typically given me 50g of carbohydrates. So I'm like, I'm nailing at least 50g of carbohydrate via my fluids every hour. But then on top of that, I'm having some real food. And then that's what's really topping me up. I think I will. Think I've worked out that I'm averaging like 83g of carbohydrate in an hour. having a serving of protein, like, every 5 or 6 hours just so I can, like, help my body repair itself as I'm. As I'm breaking down all of the tissues as I'm running. I have our friend Karen's, have them every 5 or 6 hours, and that helps to boost blood flow and help my body, like, prioritize. well, maybe not prioritize, but improve, fat oxidation. So I'm not relying so heavily on my body's glycogen, and, yeah, just trying to keep it as diverse as possible. Like, yeah, mashed potato noodles, the savory things, but then also switching on the sweet things and yeah, just being open to change and open to the palate and not accepting things on the day because that's that's a big thing. You're probably aware of doing your really long 100 miles especially like yeah, 100 miles in the dome or anything else. You. Your palate may very well decide it doesn't want the things that you've been training with, and then all of a sudden you've got to pivot and adapt really quickly. Otherwise you're going to start missing. You're missing your target. So I've had things that I've relied on like, we discovered Idaho and mashed potatoes like Idaho and instant mashed potatoes that you have in the States. Those are, those are delicious. but I went to Kalgoorlie, 2024, which was my second attempt there. And we were making instant mashed potatoes. Like, from the get go. We brought a whole heap over with us from our last trip to the States and found that, like, I just wouldn't eat any of it. And we're like, oh, what do we do now? so, like, I went on a diet of, like, mostly gels for the first 24 hours until like me, my palate had had enough of gels and wanted something savory instead. And that was like, that was a bit of a chaotic moment where we were getting pretty worried because, like, it's pretty normal to go off your food after like 24 hours or 48 hours. But if you're like, immediately starting to reject your nutrition options within the first day or within the first hours, then, yeah, it's a bit worrying because you're on a slippery slope after that point quite often. Yeah, it is really interesting when your body just decides like, yeah, I'm not going to take that anymore. And it's not even always. And people, most people probably had a digestive issue where it's like, okay, I took that in and then I puked or whatever. And I remember the first time I really understood that was actually before I had ever done an ultramarathon. I was in college, and one of my buddies and I went to this pizza place. They had this challenge where if two of you could eat a £12 pizza in an hour, you got like $500 or something like that. So we went in to do it. I remember, like the first time I got through like £4 of pizza in like the first 15, 20 minutes. I'm like, I'm just blasting through this. And then all of a sudden I got to this point where I think it was the cheese. It was like I would take a bite and I would be chewing it, and my body physically just wouldn't allow me to swallow it. So I'm just slowing down to a grinding halt, essentially. And I eventually got up to £6 within the hour. But like, it was like the majority of it was just like in the beginning of that, before my body started just saying no, no more. And I think there's kind of something similar to that with like, because I could have eaten pretty much anything else if you would have handed me a bowl of ice cream or something like that, I probably could have eaten it without too much trouble. And I think it's just that texture, flavor profile difference. And you're right. I think if you can go in with the best laid plan of what worked in the past. But if your body just decides, for whatever reason. You know what? I don't really want that anymore. You need to have something. And I think it's. I like what you said about the variance between salty savory versus sweet, because I think those are the two, two big ones. I'll usually have something where like in most of my races, they're short enough where I can get away with quite a bit of engineered fuel and quite a bit of monotony. But there's always a point where it's just like you get a little sick of it, and then if that's like a drink or a gel based product, then it's like a crunchy potato chip or cracker or something that's salty, crunchy, savory versus sweet liquidy. It just hits so much differently. And it almost unlocks your ability to eat again. And I think that's always a big breakthrough for ultra runners when they kind of get to that balance of variety to the degree where now they can consistently eat over the course of the event versus having big lulls of opportunity loss from just eating nothing for a while. Yeah, I think I think novelty is key is like what I tell my runners that I coach. It's like there's no such thing as too many options and back out ultra. Like go shopping and buy all the silly things that you're like, oh, that looks tasty. Just treat yourself like, grab it off the shelf. And if you don't need it during the race, like it's going to go and it's going to go in the cupboard, it's going to go in the fridge anyway after the race. So it's not like it's going to get thrown away. And if you've got all these. Crazy options. You might only use an option once, but if you use it once it goes down and it stays down in an excess of fuel. Perfect. That was a good buy. That was a good option for you on the day. It's nice to just, like, go through the race and be like, oh, that's tasty. Like just constantly having new novel tastes, textures. And yeah, a lot of it's about mouthfeel as well. So like trying not to like running for 48 hours and just having dry, dry stuff all the time. Like you want to, you want it to be soft and moist on the palate because, like, it's already an arduous task. And, yeah. And again, like flavors with your gels and with your, and with your electrolyte, I don't turn up with one flavor of electrolyte and one flavor of gel. Like, I can guarantee you within, like about 3 or 4 hours, you're going to hate what that product is. So like turn up and have six different drink flavors, have six different gel flavors. And then that way it's going to kind of keep it enjoyable. Yeah. No doubt. You know, the other thing I thought when I saw you guys put up that performance was, man, I wonder if these guys are hot like a six day on their calendar at any time. Because I just think, like when you start getting to that duration and now you apply it to a course where you get to manipulate how long you stay out. And when you sleep, like, how many miles could you rack up over six days? And like I remember, I talked to some people about it and some people are like, well, you know, sometimes it's just like people are better at certain things. Maybe they don't have any interest in it. Maybe it's just different. I don't know, I think you probably crushed six days. Have you got any plans for something like that in the future? my little ADHD brain is always like, I want to do this one. And that one. I mean, like, like any ultra runner, we're greedy and we want all these different adventures and experiences. But you can only do so many because they're so taxing on the body. I am interested in the longer stuff, but at the same time, I want to maximize the amount of events that I'm able to to compete in at any one point in time. Like, I think I raced 11 ultramarathons in 2024 alone and that was super fun. And you start doing these like six day or 1000 mile or 2000 mile runs, then immediately that really limits your calendar because you've got to. You've got to focus on those and then, and then you've got a big recovery time afterwards. But, we've got dead Kalgoorlie or Australian Backyard Masters coming up again in June. So that's the same. It's the same venue and the same event that we ran two years ago to get the world record. And I rate that course as being possibly the best for setting the world record, like globally. it's flat, it's open. So like, it's not it's not windy. It's not taxing on the body. You can in your mind, you can pretty much just switch off and run and, and then because it's the Masters event this year, you've got a lot of big runners. You've got Harvey Lewis, you've got Phil Gore. I think we've got Myron Giertz who, like all these guys, is in the top five, top ten in the world. And a number of other guys like Ryan Crawford and James Blanton, who are the other best guys in Australia. I'm going there and. The current world record is sitting at 110 hours, which is like, yeah, more or less five days. I'm thinking that we will run six days, or it's my hope that we will run the full six days on that course. Yeah. That's just such an interesting element to this event too is there really. Well there is no finish line. There's a finish line that creates itself eventually. But like if you're having a duel or you're throwing down with a few people on 100 miler or even, you know, even a six day event or a timed event, there's this tangible stop there where you're just like, okay, that's where that's where this thing ends. And if I get there before they do, then I win. But with this, it's just like psychologically, you don't really have that piece to the puzzle in there to maybe grab on to at times. So is there anything you do mentally to prepare differently for that? Is it sort of like, all right, I can't think about that because I can't control it? Or is it something that is on the back of your mind throughout? I mean, it's definitely on the back of your mind, especially like for me, when I step foot in one of these backyard ultras. Like, I don't just want to win it, I want it to go as far as it physically can go. Like, I don't, I don't want to just win. I want to be tested. And I can only be tested if we can go really far. So, yeah, my approach to these races has become very different to what it once was. I guess I've gone from being like the unproven youngster who wanted to kind of be a big name in the sport and do big things. So I was a bit of a cutthroat runner. I was like, I was there, I was the lone wolf. I'd be happy to not talk to anyone for four or so days at a time and, and just go out there and tear throats out. But now I kind of understand, like, I can go. For over 100 hours, and my target is 150 plus hours. In order for me to go that far. Everybody else needs to go that far. Like, I need people there with me. The more people that you have. Further into the race, the easier it is to go that far. Because like, you run for a couple of days and there's only two guys left in the race, it becomes a bit monotonous and lonely, where at least if you've got company of like, I don't know, half a dozen to a dozen people going really far, then, then you're pretty sure that you can you can, you can get a really decent distance. So, yeah. Now, I think the sport itself has evolved a lot more like there's a lot more camaraderie. There's a lot less people who like to go out by themselves. Yes. They're out for themselves because they want a good result. But at the same time, they know they can. They know they can achieve a good result. But at the same time, you're working with their competitors. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. It's one of those things where especially like in the early days of the backyard, you could get in there and, and put up a huge number relative to what was being done by yourself. But now I think when you're getting into that spot where it's like you've gone through multiple nights of no real sleep. You just. You need it. You need someone to push you along. Someone else to get out there and say, okay, well, if they're doing it, I'm going to do it. I'm kind of curious about, like, the gamesmanship within that too, where I remember watching the live stream when you guys were you, Harvey and Gore were going at it, and it seemed like Harvey was maybe trying to, like, run really fast at the start of the loop. And I was like, I wonder if he's trying to, like, make these guys think, like, he's got a lot in the tank and, they may as well give up because he's going to go at least one more. So we're all past the world record at this point. It was. Is that something that you see happening, or is that just maybe his typical characteristic? Harvey's chaos like, huh? Harvey, I often say, is the closest thing to a real life alien that I've ever met. Like, he's a unique character. I love him like, he's just like a ray of sunshine at all times. but, yeah, he'll throw random stuff in. And, I mean, like, despite being, like, the most lovely guy you've ever met at the same time, like, he's a cutthroat warrior, like, he'll get up there and he'll throw down and and he's, like. He'll play mind games and those fast starts were, were, were, were a lot of mind games like he was me and he had kind of run a lot of the last I think the fourth day or maybe even the third and the fourth day together. and Phil was kind of like running his fast loops out by himself. And so, like Harvey said, like, you're going to win this together. Like it'll be me and you last two. And, and so he was at that point, he was messing with Phil. He was like, oh, well, Phil's been running faster. I'm just going to run faster than him to start off with. so that was, that was just trying to try to throw something at him and see how he reacts. Because that's a lot of the back yard is like when it comes down to mind games. Then people start, I don't know, showing that they're stronger than they are. that's. Yeah, I mean, that's how a lot of backyards are. One is everybody's hurting. But if you turn up in the corral at the start of the 89th loop and you look like you've just got out of bed and you're about to run your first loop, and the other guy is like, oh, I'm falling apart. And you see this guy, and he's just the picture of health like, that can be enough to break you. Yeah. Yeah, it's really fascinating. I mean, there's just so much stuff. I've started doing a few podcasts on the history of ultramarathons, so I've had some guys that are sort of historians and record keepers. Yeah. Your recent, your, your recent series of episodes has had quite a multi-day kind of vibe. Aha. It's such an interesting aspect and I'm, I'm just like eternally like interested in the element of how the sport is today and kind of and this is partly just my own ignorance and the way I got introduced to the sport where like the first ultra I did was a 50 miler on a trail, and I had no clue that there were really a whole lot else outside of trail running and stuff like that. And then like, you know, 100 milers. And I guess I knew that there was some other stuff out there, because I had read Dean Karnazes book and knew that he was at least doing like, Badwater and running like 300 miles or 350 miles or whatever. It was just consistent. But I thought that stuff was maybe a little less structured, and I was completely ignorant to the fact that like 100 years prior, there was a six day event that was one of the top sports in the world at the time. And people were just just going back and forth at that and doing all sorts of crazy stuff too. So you could go further and, and put up numbers that are respectable today, like more than respectable in a lot of cases. I would say more than respectable, especially with what they were fueling on back then, which like, I mean, like there were some guys that were like going high carb. There were some guys that were drinking honey and stuff, but like, there were other guys that were a lot of them that were drinking beef tea. Like beef tea. Yeah. Or and lots of stimulants. Like lots of stimulants, and then running in, I don't know, woolen work socks and leather boots. Leather shoes. Yeah, I found that I was reading this book that has a bunch of details on it, and they said something to the degree of like, I think it was a guy who was trying to go 5000 miles in 100 days or something like that. And I remember looking at the date and then someone mentioned like, oh, you know what? They didn't even invent a rubber shoe sole until like 7 or 8 years after that. So this guy's out there in some, like, leather based, like, soled shoes. I'm just trying to. Yeah, I imagine their feet. Yeah. Yeah, like their feet. Like the tendinopathy all of the statuses that those guys must have just run through. Yeah. Yeah it's nuts. It's nuts to think about. So yeah that's been just an exciting kind of history lesson for me. And just learning more about the sport and diving into it and getting excited about some of that stuff too, because I've done basically single day stuff. And I do want to get into some multi-day stuff eventually, and kind of learning more about it and getting excited is probably the way to do it, because at a certain point you need some motivation to stay out there, I'd imagine. Would you ever consider doing a backyard? Yeah, I'd probably do a backyard. I think I'd probably do it if I really got it. I think the one that really interests me the most right now is probably the sixth day. Just because it's like it's a little more defined. it's got the history aspect to it. it's probably just, again, something I've been exposed to now more from just looking into this stuff a bit. But I also I'm also like trying to be reasonable about it too, and realizing it's probably not a great idea to make my first multi-day thing to be a six day, I should maybe do something that's I mean, maybe a backyard is the move because it's sort of I can sort of create what I want out of it to some degree. I mean, you can do it with a six day two, I guess, but I you probably feel maybe like if you sign up for a six day and then you're just kind of like hanging out the last three days, that feels a lot less maybe purposeful than like, all right, I'm gonna do a backyard, find out where my limit is, and then stop there and then, like, okay, that's the benchmark. I got a multi-day experience, hopefully a multi-day experience, and then I can kind of build from there. But yeah, I mean, I'm open to stuff. So like after this conversation, I'll probably be more interested in backyards just because of what you've told me. Yeah, I, I think the backyard. The weird sport that it is at. It's extremely useful within our field. Like with an ultramarathon running, it's it's a very good entry to ultramarathon running for people who are just starting their journey because rather than kind of being set off on 50 to 100 miles of carry your stuff and go out into the wilderness and survive, it's, you're just running a loop. And then that way you don't have to carry your stuff. You've got people looking after you. You're running shoulder to shoulder with maybe 150 other people. And then people will quite often sit, set PBS. Then as far as distance goes. I think it was last year or the year before. And, and for consecutive years, Backyard Ultra has had more 24 hour, 100 mile finishes globally than any other combination of 100 mile races in the world have had 24 hour finishes. So yeah, it's cool from that aspect, but it's also a great way of testing your mind because sure, like you and me prior to Backyard Thing would have been used to running for long periods of time and great distances. But then you've got to then you throw in the factor of having to sit down every hour and having to mentally force yourself to get out of the chair every hour. And there's that part of your mind that says, like, I don't, I don't want to, and you've got to override that. And so that's a nice way of galvanizing your resolve. And just like finishing the job, it's slow. And it really it's not too physically hard, but it also tests your mind. To a great degree. Yeah. I wonder about the like if someone had like a 100 mile goal for 24 hours if the backyard makes sense because it almost forces them to pace themselves a little more smart than they maybe would otherwise, because there's just less of that draw to, go out guns blazing and then pay dearly the last third and maybe get clipped by like a cut off, or just fall short of the 24 hour time frame when, like, you know, someone, someone who's targeting like a sub 24 for a hundred miles, they're probably not in the boat. They're where they're really trying to maximize all sorts of things, like, okay, I need to get there a little quicker so I can sleep there. Probably, you know, if their goal is to get to 124 hours, they're probably not going to sleep. And in which case there's no incentive for them to be finishing sooner than like 50, 55 minutes. in terms of, in the beginning, maybe. Anyway, I do wonder about that, just like the whole pacing structure of these 100 milers. And if people are getting a little bit better at it through a backyard because they're painted into a little bit more of a structured strategy. Yeah. No, definitely. There's definitely that aspect. like, I've, I've got a number of athletes that I've coached over the years that they might be in the. 30s. Yeah. They'd be in like the 30 to 35 hour group as far as having, having done any point to point 100 mile races. But then as soon as you throw them into the backyard ultra, there's a social aspect. So you've got people to chit chat with the whole time. You're not carrying everything that you need on your back, like, you might only be holding a water bottle for the entirety of the loop. And, yeah, just reining it in speed wise allows them to just chug over and stay disciplined because, I mean, like the discipline of having to be out there for 6.7km, 4.2 miles every hour. It forces them to do that distance where if they're in the 30s or 40 hours for, for 100 mile racing, but it's all on them to be kind of hitting their paces like they can, they can sit down in an aid station for 20 or 30 minutes. Yeah. Once they sit down at an aid station for 20 or 30 minutes for 14 aid stations at a time, whilst also running pretty slow, then. Yeah, the time just blows out really quickly. Yeah. That's a good point too. And speaking of 100 miles too, I don't want to paint you into a corner of being just this multi-day backyard specialist because you're quite good at the other ultra distances too. You just recently won the Terra were 100 miles in February. So you're content with mixing it up with some fast paced 100 miles as well? What was it like coming in? Or maybe I should ask? What is your, what is your goal when you're doing a race like that? Is that just the same thing? I just want to go in there and try to win this. Or is it a means to an end to improve things with the backyard stuff? Is there anything specific about the shorter ultras that you like? Yeah, for sure. I mean, like I wanted to be a professional athlete from when I was a teenager and there was a lot of making things up and trying different sports along the way. And then it was much later in life that I kind of found out that I was pretty good at running, and then, like, I was almost in my 30s by the time that I decided to throw everything out and just focus, focus on running with particular ultramarathon running. And when I decided that I was just like that, I wanted to do it all. So like I had targeted 24 hours, I had targeted the backyard, I had targeted the Utmb series and I yeah, I wanted to run 50 to 100 miles to whatever distance I know, and I wanted to win as much as possible. And yeah, it was kind of like the start of last year that I really staked my claim that I wasn't a one trick pony and that I could also do 100 mile races. So I came second at Tarawa last year, in the 100 mile. I came first in Kosciuszko, 100 miles in Australia in November, and then I came first at Tarahumara in February. Gone. And yeah, at that point I was. Yeah, I've gone from just wanting to win these races to trying to trying to get up there as being one of the best and one of the most diverse ultramarathon runners in the world. And, unfortunately, it's where I. I really hurt myself. I still got the win, but, like, I have quite a bad injury currently. So I was going for the course record. It's hard to define the course record at Tarahumara because quite often they have landslides and they have to have course changes, and the courses are quite often very different. But I just decided like, well, it keeps on changing. Why not just go for the overall course record? And Zac Miller said that in 2023 at a time of 14 hours, 41. So I was just like, let's go 14 hours 40. And I attacked that, and had had all my pacing strategy set out for that. And, and I think I could have done it. The only problem was we had quite a strong field of elite athletes and like for, really good runners came over from Japan for the race. One of them being like a, like a 213 marathoner, which is much faster than I am. and so I had to be a little bit more strategic in that race. so I was quite aggressive with the pacing. I tried to beat some of the guys up early on, and I made my move with, like, I made my move at the 50 K mark, so it meant, like, I took the lead. And broke off. And that meant I had to hold the lead for 110km, which I did, and it got me the lead. But at the same time, like I have, I have a pretty, pretty bad injury as a result. But, didn't didn't quite get the didn't quite get the, the course record that I was after. But I still had a pretty good time and it was. Yeah. It's the first time a Kiwi has has won that race. So it was pretty special to me. Yeah. Yeah. I mean the tactics is another interesting aspect to these two where it's not like it's just like I understand like pacing well is going to maximize your finishing time, but it's not necessarily going to maximize your competition's finishing time is the way I like to describe it. And like I had a similar race like that at the road 100 mile championships in 2021, where they had to push it back a couple of months due to Covid stuff. And so it's in, it's in Nevada and it's like 90 degrees that day. So it went from like a really fast course where you could probably run, like if I had a really good performance there, similar to some of my fastest hundreds, I'm probably breaking 12 hours and, but, you know, not in 90, 95 degrees. So but there were some fast runners there that year and it was just like, all right, we kind of had a group there, and I sort of had this point where there was maybe a little bit of turbulence with a couple of the guys. So I'm like, okay, here's my chance to really put a big gap and just like, make it set to like, all right, you're not only going to have to manage that issue you just had, but now you're going to have to make up a bunch of time, too, and just give them one more challenge to maybe have to deal with. And it worked really well. I ended up winning, but I mean, it was a really painful last 20 miles and they were very slow relative to the rest of the day. So like, you know, could I have if I was just out there time trialing I guess then maybe I go a little slower and I don't make that move at 50 K in the heat, I stay a little more conservative and then save myself a bit at the back end. But you know, that maybe doesn't get me the win, because maybe that keeps one of those guys in it, and then they sit on me for a while. They catch up and we both end up running faster, but I get second instead. So there is that, that, that interesting aspect that kind of comes into it now to where it's not always a race course of the fastest time you could possibly do. You have to also consider what everyone else is doing out there. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, not not everybody can have the patience of Courtney who wasn't that slow and then sweep or I wouldn't say slow. But she'll start her consistent pace and hold that throughout. Wherever anybody runs, run up and then she'll take them all from behind. yeah, the way I saw it with that race is like. There are guys here who, if I allow them to hide, if I allow them to run a conservative race, they probably have a faster finish than me. Like just on paper, they are faster runners than me, but with particular reference to the Japanese guys. I knew that most of those guys had only been in the country for two days. It was hot as heck in New Zealand because like it's the middle of summer and they were coming from Japanese winter. So effectively they're going from cold to hot and they've had no time to acclimate. Yeah, you're a faster runner than me, but you're going to really hate this warm day. And so I figured, well, if I just hammer you and force you to run fast, you're probably going to break. And I had it picked prior to the race that it was going to be like me and two elite Japanese runners, first, second and third on the podium, because the Japanese runners were the guys who actually met my call, met my challenge and pushed hard in the heat of the day. None of them even finished in the top five, because they had just really, really got burnt out and cooked, on that hot New Zealand day, on these open forestry roads. Yeah, I mean, that's the fun thing about ultramarathons too, is you get all sorts of different variables that pay massive consequences if you don't manage them the right way. So it makes it fun. It's not just who's fastest on paper all the time. yeah. Like what are you doing differently in training, getting ready for a race like that versus, the backyard stuff? Is there anything specific that you're really kind of diverging from one or the other? Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say I'd do anything typically too different from any one training for any, any, any particular distance really. Like I think the running equation is pretty, pretty simple, like around 100 miles a week early in the early in the week you might do some VO2 max type type intensity stuff and then later in the week do some, do some lactate threshold intensity. and that's, that's kind of what got me to from being good to being pretty competitive on a global setting is just good, consistent weeks at 100 miles or around abouts with some with some speed in there, leading into Tarahumara, I guess, for maybe. 4 to 6 months leading into that, I had tried to tweak the equation a little bit. I was doing a lot of experimentation on myself and seeing how much I could handle. And so I was doing a lot, a lot more fast stuff, like top end, fast type things and then and then trying to increase the volume of that within the week. So I was going from about 100 miles or 160 K's up to I think I peaked at around like 195 km per week in the lead up to Tarawa. But then in that period of time, I was doing maybe 40km of that week or nearly 26 miles of that week at like VO2 max threshold intensity. And it was maybe a little bit too much. It was definitely too much because I was running like a lot of intervals and a lot of sustained intervals and like the 220 to 230 per kilometer zone and, yeah, too much too fast. Crank cranked my equation way too hard. As a result, Neither of my adductors or my rectus abdominis, my six pack, are attached to the bone right now, so I really, really slammed the structure, but it's slowly on the mend right now. But, yeah, typically I would like to be around that 100 miles a week. I did an interesting training block this time last year because I just had some free time. I didn't have a whole heap of races on, and I was just trying to. I knew I was fast and I knew I could, I could race well, but I wanted to galvanize my resolve, make the top two inches that little bit stronger. And so I did, I did a month of, nearly 200 mile weeks. So like 300, 301, 305 and then like 326 or something km weeks. And I knew that I probably wasn't going to get any. Well, I was going to get physical gain from it, but like, I was definitely, probably going to hurt myself in a way. But I wanted to give myself the opportunity to fail and, and then carry on because that's, that's a lot of what you're exposed to in the backyard is. You get so many opportunities to choose to stop. Like, there's no one. There's no one keeping you out there. And so yeah, having that little bit in your head, just just keep pushing. Keep, keep attacking. Like finish the job. That's that. That's something that's quite important in the backyard and probably in any multi-day race like six days or thousand miles or whatever. Like you need to, you need to have it within you to just stay disciplined and, and finish the job that you started. Yeah. Yeah. It becomes kind of a mindset to some degree. Yeah. I think what I usually gravitate towards when it comes to ultramarathon training methodology is pretty similar to what you described. It's like I think step one is just becoming a better runner and working on some of those kinds of things like what you said, simple processes of just becoming a better runner. Like get your volume up to a sustainable max, have some short interval VO2 max, some long interval threshold stuff in there like a more basic long run and spend some time doing that. And then once you kind of get a lot out of that, if you have the right timeline, then now you can use maybe the last 6 to 8 weeks to sort of get a little more specific to whatever it is you're doing, whether that be a 100 miler, a backyard or a six day, and then just carry that really good fitness and apply it to the very specifics that you'll be doing it a little bit more, a little go from like building the the runner to maintaining the runner, and then use that extra that you have from only having to maintain versus develop to apply to, you know, maybe some longer sessions or more specific terrain or, or maybe the backyard even doing some simulations. I don't know how valuable that would be necessarily for someone who's done a few of them like you, but maybe someone who's new would benefit from something like that. Oh no. Simulations are key. Like if I have a runner that I'm coaching and like, backyards are on the agenda. If they haven't done a backyard previously, like, I'll send them, send them out like maybe a month or six weeks before. And I'll just say, sit up in your garage, create a 6.7km loop from your garage, and you're going to run a six hour or an eight hour simulation, like you haven't run through the dark before. Cool. Like we'll do. We'll do four hours. Before, before sunset. And then we'll do it four hours after sunset. And then that way you'll just get to, like, test your systems and your processes and test. Getting out of the chair even when you don't want to get out of the chair. Test eating on the hour, every hour at maybe volumes that they've never experienced before. Yeah I love it. I think it's because you get a little bit of that debate in the alternate community between like do you do like these ultra specific training sessions or do you just like, you know, train like a marathon or train like a typical runner. And I always think like, well, why are we picking between them? You know, like maybe train, train like a regular runner and but give yourself the right timeline so you can do some specific stuff too. And then with that I always think like whenever you're, whenever you have two polarizing opinions, there's probably some middle ground. And then it's just like, how do you structure a way to accommodate both of them to the, to a degree where you're getting the benefits with maybe out the downsides? yeah, that's just kind of been my approach so no, 100%, I think, I mean, my, my, my look at it as running trains running. And like, if you run a decent volume with some decent structure for, for a period of time, like you're going to get better at running from pretty much every distance from like, I don't know, at least if it's longer than 800 million. So like longer than a sprint right through to 100 miles, right through to backyard ultras like you make your cardiovascular system more efficient, make your legs nice and strong, and you just get comfortable running good distances at times. And being in, I don't know, a level of discomfort like you're going to get better and you're going to go further and you're going to be better at all of these things. So yeah. Specificity. running. Running is specific to running. So, yeah, I think I think that's the key thing. Yeah. And you're not doing a lot of walking when you're doing 38 minute yards either, so. No, no, I think I worked it out. You're doing like, I don't know, high, high 5 minute/km loop. So maybe it is eight minutes per mile or something. Yeah. Right. About. Yeah. Yeah. Are you doing it? I mean I'm curious because like when you're out there for that long and you're eating as much as you have to eat to do that, is there any aspects to your training where you're like, all right, I'm going to start eating a lot of these types of food products in my day to day, especially on the solid food side of things. Or is there anything specific you do structuring your diet to accommodate the type of racing you're doing? I think having a good relationship with food is pretty pivotal. Like if, if, if you're pretty vanilla with your eating from the get go then that's immediately going to limit you with how many options you have to eat during the race. so, so immediately, like, you're not good at eating. You've got to be good at eating. You've got to be hungry. Athletes feed themselves on a daily basis. I think it's very key as you get closer to these races to obviously be like eating whilst you're training, but also be training at a decent volume that your metabolism is fast enough to be to be, to be absorbing all of this food, doing, doing its job. Because I've definitely found that as I've maybe rolled the dice with, with my racing and head races, just like way closer than a sensible like, like, like a 400 mile backyard ultra one weekend and then nine days later, a 200 mile backyard ultra. And yeah, that's silly. But also like, if you're if you're recovering from one race, I find your metabolism like definitely slows down and then say if you're, I don't know, 4 to 6 weeks later trying to do another one, but you've had, I don't know, a month of recovery or close enough to it where you haven't been doing much, your metabolism has been slowing down and you've only had a small amount of time, like getting back on the horse and getting your metabolism moving again. I find that you get into it. You get into the second race and you're just not that hungry. You're not used to eating decent volumes, or at least like if you're running 100 miles plus weeks, you're eating a pretty good volume. Like you're eating a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like you're hungry. Like you've liked, your body wants to fuel. And so you're used to it, and you kind of hold that going into the race. So that's, that's that's pretty key. Yeah that's a great point actually. Like when you think about it. Yeah. If you're kind of going from one event to the next in a long enough timeline where you're recovered, but not necessarily training in between in a high capacity. Yeah, you're probably eating much less and therefore not exposing your digestive system to the same amount of rigor that it's maybe going to have to tolerate. I think there's I'm not 100% sure like where the research stands on this or how strong it is. But I remember hearing after a race where if you do like a really tough race, that requires a lot of fueling and just a lot of, like breakdown, that it can disturb your, your kind of gut biome for sometimes up to a month afterwards. So like if you're doing a hard race and then three weeks later doing another one, you could sort of rinse and repeat the same fueling strategy and get a different digestion type of experience because you've sort of messed with your biome a little bit with that. I think a lot of that stuff is maybe in the world of we're still learning a lot about it. So I don't know how much someone should take that and be like, oh, I better never do this. Or maybe if someone's had that kind of cycle happen a bunch of times where when they wait longer, they have good digestion, and when they don't, they have it could be a clue for them. But it's interesting stuff when you get into the world of. Essentially competitive running and competitive eating. Yeah. No, definitely I. Yeah. I mean like you like me with we've we've all had some, some GI distress. One thing that I've, I guess I've increasingly put into my, my systems and my processes around these big long races is like getting, getting the gut working again or even getting the gut working during the races. Like I'll be having probiotics during the race. So whilst I'm slamming the system with just like all these crazy acidic gels and electrolyte powders like I'm actually and probably stripping or disturbing that that biome is actually like trying to throw some. Yeah. Throw some good bacteria in there. So it's yeah it's doing, doing its job and not too depleted afterwards. And then also trying to get it back online as quickly as I can after the race. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting stuff. When you get into it the different things that you can, you can play around with to keep that gut processing everything properly. But. Cool, man. Well, Sam, it's been awesome. What do you get? I know you said you were dealing with a bit of an injury here, but what do you have coming up next? If. If things play out the way you want, I guess. Yeah, well, I think the injury is, like, kind of a blessing in disguise. Or at least I'm like, I'm trying to frame it that way because otherwise I would have been lining up for Ultra Trail Australia next month in May and heading their inaugural 100 mile race. And because I've won Kosciuszko and Tarahumara in the last number of months, this would be like the Triple Crown. Like this is the last of the three Oceania 100 mile races under Utmb. And it would be really nice to smash that. on its own for the first time and get that triple crown. But at the same time, even if I was in perfect health, throwing down a really hard 100 mile race and then recovering in five weeks to then go and attempt a world record in the backyard ultra at Kalgoorlie. Ah it's even at full health asking a lot. It's hard and I've done that kind of thing before and I know what it's like because it's been like 2 or 3 weeks recovering and then like then you start running again only to have to taper into the next one. And so you're not primed and you've already got some residual stuff going on in the, in the, in the structural system. So I'd say I'll probably just go over to Ultra Trail Australia and cruise slash pace a number of my runners that are doing that and go go there for the festival and then and then the, the priority will be going to Kalgoorlie in June and racing with, with Harvey Lewis and Phil Gore and Marion Giertz and, and everybody else who's turning up and then and then going for that world record and kind of staking my claim and taking it for myself. like, I want to hit 150 loops, which will be just over 1000 km. It'll start on Saturday morning. And that would finish it on, I think, around lunchtime on Friday. And, yeah, that's been my big goal for like, yeah, more than two years is to have that world record and have that number one spot and back at ultra. So I think. Focus on that priority and kind of sweep ultra trail Australia to the side because that's kind of been like a recent goal. Like it is, it's only been possible because I've miraculously one cozy cozy 100 miles and the tires were 100 miles. So I was like, oh, why not win all three? So that's only been a goal, maybe two months. But that goal could severely derail the one that I've been working on for a good couple of years. So I think that's where it's at. Go attack. Did you get the world record? Have a couple months to recover and train, go into Utmb? I've got 173. Yeah. The big boy, for the one this year. So that'll be fun. I've found the last couple of years that I'm quite often doing races over and over again, and I'm starting to lose the novelty because I'm like, I'm a repeater, repeat offender. It's quite exciting to be going to Utmb just for the fact that, like, I've never raced there before, so it should be fun. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, you got an exciting year even -100 miler. I think you're probably smart with that decision to keep your eye on the prize of what you've been thinking about for the last couple of years, and don't tempt fate too much with it. But, I mean, you've got me excited to follow along on that one. It was a lot of fun to watch some of the updates with the last throwdown you all had with it, and I'm sure this one will be no less exciting. I think this year is going to be pretty crazy. Yeah. If last time was anything to go by, this time is going to be even wilder. Yeah. Right on. Well. I'm excited. Sam, where can people find you? Online websites, social channels or anything like that? Yeah. For sure. I guess I'm most active on Instagram. And my handles, Sam Harvey underscore cloud lander. and then my and then my website is Sam Harvey Ultra. Com but yeah, I'm pretty active on Instagram. If anyone wants to follow and flick me a message and yeah. Right on. Perfect. I'll make sure I put that stuff in the show notes too, so listeners can click on over and see what you're up to. But I really appreciate the time, Sam. It's been awesome to hear about the stuff you've been up to. Get a little more insight in king of the backyard stuff, and I'll be rooting for you at, at the For the World record. And then, you know, hopefully a big throwdown at Utmb as well. Sounds like a heck of a year coming up. Yeah, bro. it should be. It should be quite exciting. It's been I guess it's been an exponential career pathway thus far. And yeah, hopefully I can just hold that momentum. Perfect. Well thanks again, Sam. Cheers.