Episode 433: Ultramarathon Record Keeping - Trishul Cherns & Bob Hearn

Trishul and Bob are the President and Record Keeper for the Global Organization of Multi-day Ultrarunners (GOMU). GOMU was established to supplement the existing government bodies that only recognize records of certain ultramarathon events. Both Trishul and Bob have rich histories in ultramarathon, with 100s of official events to their names. We dive into their experiences as well as the growing needs when it comes to rules and record keeping that are specific to the needs of ultrarunning. A few topics we focused on include: pacing in ultramarathon, course certification, shoe tech, and certifying record performances.

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Timestamps:

00:00:00 Introduction to the Human Performance Outliers Podcast

00:07:00 Record-Breaking Ultramarathon Achievements

00:13:00 Consistency in Multi-Day Ultra Running

00:18:31 The Unique Experience of the Vol State 500 Kilometer Race

00:24:21 Highlights from the Desert Solstice Ultra Running Event

00:30:14 The Role of Andy Milroy in Modern Recordkeeping

00:36:32 Ultra Running Events: 100k, 50k, and 24h Races

00:42:25 Understanding IAU Race Sanctioning and Certification

00:48:43 Evolution of the 50-Mile World Record

00:54:19 Challenges in Establishing Multi-Day Event Standards

01:00:26 Controversies in Ultra Running: Illegal Pacing Rules

01:06:36 Evolution of Running Shoes from the 1700s

01:12:17 Evolution of Athletic Technology and Records

01:18:32 Rise in Multi-Day Running Competitions

01:24:02 Multi-Day Trail Races: A New Era

01:30:09 Exploring the Multi-Day Running Community

01:35:34 How Zach Uses HPO Sponsors

Episode Transcript:

Well, Bob and Tricia, thank you for taking some time and coming on the podcast. Thank you very much for having us. Thank you Zach. Yeah, yeah, I know there's a lot of stuff we could jump into with this one, and I feel like I've kind of primed the audience a little bit, at least with having Davy Crockett on the show a few episodes ago and kind of diving into some of the history of the sport, and maybe, maybe for some of the listeners, introducing some, some nuance in terms of kind of where some of these crazy events we do today came from or or in some respects, like even crazier. But when you go back far enough. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So, you know, the sport goes back, you know, back to the 1700s, you know, when they had, the history, the history is where ultrarunning actually comes from, multi-day running, which Gomo is all about. It is the origins of what ultrarunning is today. You know, whether it's a six day race or the thousand mile race or they had hourly races where they did a mile, an hour for 1000 hours, all these incredible feats of endurance. Yeah, I know and one of the reasons why I like doing this topic is because I can remember back when I first got into ultra marathoning, my first one was in 2010. I knew so little about the sport. I didn't know that there were timed events. I just knew about some of these kinds of hundred mile and shorter trail events. And I just assumed the sport was relatively young. So I had a lot to learn. And then when you dig into it, you kind of find out, like, you know, some of the some of the events that are maybe a little more popular today as far as, like the average casual observer may, may assume, are actually kind of the newer events and the ones that are, maybe a little more niche are the ones that actually probably have the richer history. And you can really kind of get into some interesting facts around those. Yeah. All I can say is, I first want to say to you. Congratulations. Before we get into it, on your fantastic career. I followed it, and, you know what? Three times under 12 hours for 100 miles. I saw you do your world record for 1119, which is spectacular. And actually, 40 years before that, I saw Don Richie break in in Flushing Meadow Park in 1979. I saw him do under a half a day for 100 miles, and then to see 40 years later to see you do it, just gave me so much joy. And for the listeners, I just want to say you did a negative split, which has never been done in history. You had 540, I believe, for 50 miles, and you did 539 for the second 50. Kudos to you, brother. You know, and you made three national teams and 100 K, so you're a hero to many. Too many. By your just, par excellence in your running. Well, I appreciate it. It's been a fun journey. I would have never predicted to be able to do some of the stuff I've done in this sport. So it's been a lot of fun to kind of dip my toe into it and figure out all the people and all the stories and things that kind of came before it along the way, too. So, yeah, yeah. You know, I really appreciate that. We can kind of dive in as long as we're talking about race results and just kind of give the listeners maybe a little bit of a feel for kind of how you guys got into the sport. Oh, Tricia, if you want to go first, maybe we could do it this way. I actually went through some of them. Well, lots of results, I think. Tricia and your case, you'd like over 300 ultramarathons now. What's the exact number on it? 382 and 82. I have another one Saturday. So. Yeah. Hey. In Philadelphia. So. Yeah, I'm. It's a moving target. By the time these episodes go up, it'll be 383, that's for sure. And those are official events too, right. Like, that's not like me counting my 50 long runs. Yeah, they're all official races with lap counters back in the day. And, you know everything. It's an official race where the shortest is, I guess, 30 miles, 50 K, and the longest is 5000 K or 3100 miles. And it's each race, whether it's 3100 miles, 50 miles, 100 miles, they just count as one. So I have 382 ultramarathon race completions. Wow. Yeah. That's incredible. There is documentation on the most ultra finishes. And I would imagine you're at the top or at least near it. No Rob Apple he's got to have he has done 800 ultra. No way. Yeah yeah way. And for sure because it's all documented. Well, he has done. Yeah, maybe a little over 800 now, but this is much shorter than what I've done. You know, mine's let's say 100, 500 mile race, you know, like a 60 race or a, you know, a two day race where he went up to about a hundred miles and so he did 100 miles down. So there is a big difference there. But the man is Rob Appel and Ray Lewis is right up there as well. Ray K yeah, he's done great. He, he and he has run a very high standard, for such distances. He had the American record for 48 hours, back in the 80s. Yeah, yeah. I need to have Ray on the podcast. I actually just bumped into him at the end of the year last year. And, you know, he's still adding to that total. From what I can gather, he was a great one. He and I remember in the 80s that Ray, you know, he would be winning and winning and his 50 mile PR is like five, I want to say 28 or something like that. You know, he was not slow and a 700 500 K and, you know, he got the American record with, I saw him do that in Montalban, France, in 1985, where he did 224 miles. So salutes to rake. No kidding. Awesome. Well, I picked a few events off of off of your list, and you can tell me if I'm heading in the right direction on the ones that stand out in your mind, but I. I was looking at the 1980 6000 miler that you did, which I guess was the World Championships at the time, perhaps. No, but there was a world record set by Stu Mittleman, and it was great. And he did 11 days, at 20 hours. And he broke the, guy, that second place guy, Ziggy Bower from New Zealand, he broke his record and Stu did, maybe I want to say a full day, off of Bauer's record, but there were some great performances. I was third with, 13 days, seven hours, and it was on a one mile loop, and, it was, five finishers in that race. two Brits, me in the middle, Canadian. And then, of course, middleman, the American and Bauer, the guy from New Zealand. Okay, interesting. Yeah. And yours was a Canadian national record, if I'm not mistaken. Right? Yes. It was a Canadian national record. And in there was also a Canadian, ten day record, which was 771 miles. So I'm proud of that. That was a I was not the goal was do 100 miles the first day. And how long can I hold 70 miles a day. And I did it for, I think nine other days. And then I just 69, 68 and nine then not finished it off. So I'm happy with the performance. And, Thank you. Yeah. a very accomplished just under two weeks time spent. I guess it's funny when we have to get into weeks when we count on the on the tracker, that's. You're in real ultra territory at that point. Sure. For sure. Another one I had was a six day event in France where you hit, I believe, is 538 miles, which is 866 km, I think. Yes, it was that one stand out. Yeah, that stands out a lot to me. simply because the I was third in there, Gilbert Maddox, the great Gilbert Maddox from France in his first six day, he did 600 and I believe nine miles and broke the French national record. Second place was a guy named Patrick Mack. He did about 500. And I want to say 79 miles. I believe it's 579. And, he, I believe, broke the British, at least the modern British six day record. And I was third with 538 miles. And my first three days, I did 285 miles, and my second three days I did, 253 miles. So I was very steady, you know, I was pleased and I was, I was fried at the end of that. Yeah, I bet there's only one way to arrive at the finish line of a race like that. The third one I had was a little more recent than the other two. 1999 Self-Transcendence 3100 miles. And you did it in, I believe, 50 days and three hours, if I'm not mistaken. Yes. And, what was interesting about that race so the listeners would know it's done on a city block, but a big city block, which is a it's about a kilometer long or, you know, for the listeners, a half a mile. And, the hard part of this race was not the distance, nor was it for me the heat of the summer, because it was done right in the heat of the summer, but it was the concrete surface. And when you run on a concrete surface, there's a big difference between concrete and asphalt and, of course, trail, which is dirt. So, you know, I'm built pretty sturdy and I'm grateful to get through that. But, you know, it really gave me 1,000%. And basically I averaged 61.8 miles a day for 50 days. So, yeah. And it was, basically 6/10, running and 4/10 walking because you have to mix it up. Otherwise, some guys can pretty much run it these days now, but that that level is a new level that, and thank God there is always that ever transcending level that goes higher and higher, you know, so I'm grateful to get that done. And I've done it three times. Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting event because I think they actually force you to take downtime every day, don't they? It's like six hours off where you can't be out there collecting miles. Yes, that's correct. So from six in the morning to 12 at night. So I have 18 hours to cover as many miles as possible. And, you know, there's time management in that event, and everything is having a handler to hand you food, so there's no time wasting, and you've got to keep moving. And if you have, you know, it's hard to make it halfway through the race and let's have a bad day. You know, you lose those miles. There's a 52 day cutoff. And, you know, they're very strict. So if you have a bad day, you gotta make it up somewhere and it's hard to make it up. So you've got to be very, very steady. no, what level of fitness you are. And then to be able just to be steady as all get out. Yeah. You really can't have a terrible day and expect to get to the finish line. So that's incredible to be able to be 50 days consistent without having a big enough hiccup where it kind of costs you the whole event. That's right. You know, could you imagine? I've seen it happen. You've gone 2000 miles. You have a little bad patch, you know, for two days the game is over and you still got and you still got a thousand miles to go because you want to stay out there as long as possible. So yeah, it's a tough one, but I'm very grateful to have experienced that type of journey. Yeah no doubt, man. I'd like to get into some of the longer multi-day stuff eventually. So I've got to finish scratching the 100 mile itch, though I've still got a little bit of interest in seeing if I can lower my time in that in the next couple of years. So we'll see. We'll see how that goes. But I've, I don't know if I'll, I'll get to 3100 miles at any point, but it would be cool to be able to add my name to that list at some point, especially six days or two days. You have this. You know, you really do have the speed. And ultimately in any type of event, whether it's a mile or 3100 miles, it's based on marathon speed and speed, and you have it. And I look forward to welcoming you to the, you know, the two day club or the six day club. It's magical. And, the sense of satisfaction and fulfillment that you get at the end of it, it just takes you to a whole new level. Yeah. Yeah, I, I think it's it's probably a big enough difference in terms of kind of how the mind and the body behaves and something like that, that it would be a fun, like, fun way to kind of transition into something different and, and have a taste of that side of the sport at some point. but, Bob, I wanted to kind of maybe transition over to you. And, one thing that I thought of when, when Tricia was talking about my splits at, At the Dome was when I got into the sport, you were the first person I think I met that was really even talking about pace management in a way that would be anything close to. Even. So, like, I probably owe you to some degree the execution of that day, because had I not had that seed planted in my head, who knows what kind of crazy stuff I would have tried to do in the first 50 miles? Wow. That's high praise. Thank you very much. Yeah. And, speaking of that event, I actually the first one I put on the list of ones that I wanted to ask you about was in 2019 at six days in the dome. Right. Yeah. You were out there for 12 times as long as I was tackling the sixth day. And you hit, I believe, 530 miles, which is. Is that still an age group record? It was not an age group record because unfortunately, Joe Figgis was in the same race and he ran five records. Okay. Yeah. That's right. You guys had a real close battle that year, I remember. Well, it looked closer than it was. I think Joe is Joe and I have been great age group rivals ever since I first ran Desert Solstice, ten years ago when I turned 50. And I've been fortunate to edge him out many times, but he's the master at 68. He has the overall American record. He's the one who dragged me into it for several days. So I have him to thank for that. But it's his game. Okay. I will say that 530 though. That puts me right behind triple on the, we're both in the top ten North American six day bests. An official is right ahead of me. Whereas Tricia wasn't 53 when he did it. Yeah, I do remember seeing afterwards because like after that event, the conversation was a lot about pacing. So I looked at a profile of your six days, and it was a pretty flat line across the six days. From what I remember, you had a pretty it for the first three days and then the wheels started coming off. But, I was very. Yeah, I was very rigid. I went way over regimented. You know, you can look at people like, Nick Curry, who has the overall 24 hour American record, ran that with a negative split. And he is. You know, maybe the next evolution of my pacing philosophy. He has the, the, the, you know, the body and the mind to, to execute that at the next level. So kudos to him. But you can do that for 24 hours. If you are really, really good, you can plan and execute consistently. I've become convinced that maybe others would disagree that you can't do that for six days. It's too much of an unknown emotional terrain that you're going to traverse in physical terrain, and you have to go with the flow of how the race changes. And I, I mapped it out to ridiculous detail, down to when all my breaks were, when all my naps were going to be, and when I was going to eat, how much. And, you can do that for shorter races. I don't think that works for six days. And that makes it more, more interesting in a way, each six day race is its own sort of living beast that you, you have to navigate. Yeah. Yeah. You brought up an excellent point there. I've talked about this in the past on the podcast. You kind of you're, you're dealing with your physical battery to some degree of like how much you can tolerate. But there's also sort of that mental drain. So if you're, if you're taking on too much cognitive load from thinking of too many details, I think, and with these track races, it's easy to do it because you can see your splits every lap if you want to. And I noticed the fatigue of looking at the screen too often in, you know, races that are 12 hours long. So I can imagine when you're out there for six days, that's just like a whole nother element of kind of mental fatigue. You have to try to manage by kind of rolling with the punches to some degree, so you can use some intuition and turn the brain off a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. let's see another one I had on, which is really kind of an exciting event just in itself. And I actually have a coaching client who's in it this year, which is the Vol State 500 kilometer, where you run across the state of Tennessee, essentially. And the fun thing about that being that it's a Lazarus, there's going to be some, some, some goofiness involved. Yes, you have the screwed division, which I believe is the one that you were in where you can't have support at that. It's just you and Self-supported the streets of Tennessee. Yeah, yeah. What you can carry on your back and what you can get in convenience stores. Uh Huh. And, It's funny. Yeah. I won that race in 2021. Three days and four hours. And, that was, my best race ever. And I knew as soon as I'd finished it, that was my best race ever. And that was a weird feeling. I have to tell you to know that I'm never going to do anything better than this. And I ran. It screwed, ironically, because I'd run the previous year and came in second, but I'd had this really sort of profound effect. You know, like a spiritual experience there during and after the race. And I began to realize this race is when I run for 300 miles or more. Really, I become aware that that's not what it's all about. It's about the experience and opening up your mind and connecting with the world and connecting with people. And so I said, screw going for the record, I'm just going to go screwed without a crew because I'm not going to try to optimize my performance. I'm just going to try to optimize my experience. And I wound up beating the crude record by three hours because I was just so, dialed in to the raw experience itself. And it's the most amazing thing about multi-days that I at least can't get running up to 24 or even 48 hours if I run for 3 or 4 days. my mind, all the surface layer crap in my mind burns off and I'm just more alive and connected and aware. And for me, I used to run for records and I'll still try, but the spiritual experience is a way bigger motivator for me now for several days. And I'm sure, you know, I can appreciate it now. I used to hear about the 3100 mile Self-Transcendence Race and think what the hell, that's just insane. Why would you go and do that? Beat yourself up for two months around a city block and now I understand it's self transcendence. It's very powerful. Yeah. So thank you for mentioning that one. That's my favorite race. Yeah. Is that still the record? Yeah. Yeah. And the interesting thing is every year there's a crude division and a screwed division. except starting this year. they're not allowed to have crews anymore. Everyone has to run screwed. So, people who go after the record are generally crude, and they won't have that option anymore. Lars seems to think this record will last forever, but. Well, I'm sure that's not the case. It just needs the right person and the right, right day. But we'll see. Yeah, but yeah, what a memorable experience. I'm sure that you'll look fondly upon forever. yeah. The last one I had for you, Bob, I wanted to make sure we didn't get just all really, really, really long events. Although 24 hours for anyone listening is probably thinking that's plenty long. Was your race at Desert Solstice in 2018, where you hit 154 miles, 247.84km? which that one, I believe is an age group record. It is still an age group track record. Chad Lassiter has, Yeah, I was really proud to be the first American over 50 to break 150 miles, and I did that three times. but then Chad Lassiter came along, and he ran. I want to say 156, at worlds in Taiwan. That was on the road. So I'm still on the books for the track record. Yeah. And that was, you know, for most of my ultra career, I was really focusing on 24 hour trying to make the US 24 hour team, and that was kind of a heartbreak race because my goal, I ran my goal 154, and I thought that was going to put me in like the number three spot on the on the team. I was fourth among men in that race, which was insane. And that put me in the number six spot. And I eventually got bumped and it was very heartbreaking. But that was the first time, more than that, there had been 24 hours with more than three people over 150 on American soil. That was also the race where Camille broke the 24 hour world record. So Camille actually won overall. And, I was fourth male with 154. I just couldn't believe that. But, that was certainly my best executed 24 hours. Yeah. Yeah, that one, that that event that year will be one that probably stands out in the solstice record books in terms of just how much, how much went on in that. And I mean, as you know, following that event, you can get a variety. It's a lot of times sometimes just depending on when the world championships is, as to how deep the fields get. You get these years. Every once in a while, though, where it seems like more than normal, people will kind of come down to the track and tackle different distances or different times and things like that. And that one was definitely a full field kind of, I guess, probably similar to this year's on the women's side, where it just seemed like that was just another level, and unbelievable. Yeah, we're going to have such a strong, yeah, I'm actually the 24 hour now, the US 24 hour team assistant manager. So I kind of would love to try again to make the team, but at least I'm going to go to worlds. And yes, the women's team is so insanely strong and that performance at Desert Solstice, like, for women, I think over 150, if I remember correctly, not one, not American, but yeah. just unbelievable. Yeah for sure. So hopefully we'll see that kind of continue because it's such a fun event to see like competition at where you, you just thinking like being out there for that long and being on the last hour knowing you still have to have your foot on the gas pedal to stay ahead or, or catch up in some cases to, to somebody else. And, you know, I was actually this is a little bit of a tangent. I was out at the Fat Ox 24 hour this year, and there was, kind of similar not not quite as to the details of solstice, but on the men's side, there is like a lot of close running near the very end of it. And there's just like how you can get that much excitement, adrenaline. The last couple hours of a 24 hour is quite an experience, even as a fan, just to kind of watch play out and see people fade, make moves come back to life and all the all the different things that happen within something like that. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for highlighting that. I just want to add there's one record I believe you have. I'm not sure you're aware that you have run. I think it's seven times at Desert Solstice, and I think I'm second with six. Okay. All right. Yeah. I didn't realize that. That's cool. All right, well, I gotta keep. I gotta get to ten now. Yeah? Yeah. Awesome. Well, I'm sure I've got a few more Desert Solstice than me. So. Awesome. Maybe we can have a friendly competition of who can get to ten first and catch. awesome. Well, I, I wanted to, kind of give you guys that kind of intro and just let everyone know. Kind of why I chose you to have this podcast episode. It's partly because you guys have been in the sport for a long time and have done a lot in the sport, and then when we look at a sport like this that dates back into the 1700s, like you said earlier, it's it just you start, your brain starts to kind of go in all sorts of different directions about like, well, how are these events structured and why were they doing it? And then, you know, one of the one of the angles that kind of sometimes comes up in my mind at least, is just like, well, how are these events being recorded and how are we keeping track of all this stuff? And and then I think as the sport now really starts to continue to grow over the last decade or so, you know, how does those transitions take place now that we have a pretty big ultrarunning community like, you know, what do we need to do as a community to just like kind of take ownership of some sort of the record tracking and that sort of thing, too, because when you look at like the more typical bodies and organizations that have been around to track, like Olympic stuff and things like that, like World Athletics and even USAtf, those are like actually young organizations compared to the sport as a whole. so maybe we can get in a little bit of that, if you don't mind. The first thing I just wanted to chat about is the history of ultramarathon record keeping. How did they do that in the 1700s? Did. Was that something that was pretty formally done and we could just kind of look back on it? Or were there was there a lot of digging by some of the more, modern runners to kind of organize some of that stuff? No, there was recording back, let's say, in the, they, they recorded, they wrote it down. it's, the public key found out, of course, by the, newspaper clippings. And that's how, we found out about the old pedestrian races. That's how Davy Crockett, was able to research what he did. But they did record this stuff. They had lap counters and, back in the 1700s, I. I know I'm old as dirt, but I'm not that old, so I can't say for sure, but they recorded everything and and and there are log types of log books that show this. So but there's been books written about this, you know, I was, I read a book about this one, chap, Captain Barclay and he, I think he did a thousand miles and he did a mile an hour and just they recorded it. They just wrote it down, and then it got documented. So. And there was time taken, but it was by, you know, the clock, you know, the clocks that they had at the time, there weren't stopwatches. So or casio's, you know, which I still have here. So yes, they are recorded. and also but things really got going in the modern times, by around 1952. And the man behind it all was Andy Milroy. And Andy Milroy was a history teacher and he was their club statistician. But he was also an historian, and since he was a history teacher, he took a real interest in what he read and he took just I think it's God's will or something. He became the instrument to just be fascinated by this. And he was part of the Roadrunners Club of England. And that's where it all started, the modern, weather ultra running. and it was created in 1952, as I said, or 1952. And, the people that were there, that's where Ted Corbett, who is the father of modern certification, learned it when he went over from London to Brighton in the 1960s. And so, Andy took an interest in it. He became the chief statistician. And how we got back in the 80s, how we got our records ratified. It was really just Andy, first did it, and then he would look at your lap sheet. You had to give him the lap sheets, and then you also had to give him the course certification and everything. So on the basis of course certification and lap sheets, he would look them over and he would, you know, make sure everything was recorded and he would look at each lap, whether it's a quarter mile to make sure it followed the next lap. So, you know, so it was, I can say meticulously, I looked over him, looked at him. And then, the IWR was created in 1980, I believe, 1984, and I saw the, the whole start of that, you know, but and Andy was one of the original members and he, he, they took him as the main statistician, and from there he moved on to the Duv. So everything went through Andy Milroy. And then he was the guy behind the IAU's recordkeeping. And so modern recordkeeping of multi days and ultra running that was based in England. it was all about Andy and the American guy that was a student of them was a guy called Nick Marshall, and he was from Camp Hill, Pennsylvania, and he would have a statistic book come out every year in the 1980, 1981, 1982, and he listed all of the rankings, the runner's rankings and times. But he also made sure that the records of courses were measured and that every lap was taken, and if it was missed, then they would start questioning it. So that was kind of, indirectly the ratification back then. And then things develop and now there's more and more rules to make sure that everything, all eyes are dotted and Altizer crossed. Yeah. Now we have timing maps, which are helpful, I would imagine. And in that process, I did actually do an event in 2014. And it was one of Ray's events. And this was definitely timing Max in 2014, but that event did not have them. So he had like I think it was like the high school track team out there, and they were all assigned a runner and they had shifts and they were just like every lap they would make a notch just to make sure you got your, your stuff. And then every once in a while, some would be like, hey, I think they've missed one of my laps so that he'd go back and check and verify whether it was accurate or not. And, yeah, it's a lot more manpower when you do it that way, that's for sure. And also, back in the day, back in the 1800s, they had steel tape. And so they measured their courses. They were accurate, you know, they went around and measured by steel tape. And they were very detailed because they wanted to make sure that these runners were running what they did. And these days, of course, the key is the Jones wheel. And in the Jones wheel, that is like a bicycle wheel with a digital. What is it, a little lap count, you know, a measurer. And it's measured by the wheel and I'm big. And to really have an accurate course you have to measure it before and it would be helpful afterwards. And, but it has to be done by Jones' wheel. And then of course today you have course measurer A and B so. Things have developed that way. Yeah. Yeah. And the Jones wheels, the way they measure the marathon courses, too, I think, if I'm not mistaken. Yes. Yes it is. Yeah. And then I think when we get on some of these track events it maybe gets a little easier if you get the, you can certify the track and then it's sort of as long as you have your paperwork and everything, they kind of don't have to redo that as often. Right. You know. Yeah. The easiest one is by loop courses. You know, loop courses, they just measure it. And they even had to be used to be at least six inches from the curb track. And for things to count you had to have a curb track. So when I did my six day race it was curbed. It was measured before it was measured afterwards. And it was done in La Rochelle, France. And the French are very meticulous. They really are making sure all things are covered. So because they want they're very proud people and they want to make sure that, you know, it's perfection. So. Yeah. And you mentioned, IOU. And just for listeners who maybe aren't familiar, that's the International Association of Ultra Runners. When and when did that body come into place? 1984. And it was thought of on a track at a Six-Day race in 1983, I was walking around, leaping out with Malcolm Campbell, who became the first president. And we were talking about, you know, the IAAF, which is World Athletics back then and how they didn't recognize anything about the marathon. And so I said, why don't we create our own? Malcolm? He said, that's a good idea. And it was done at the New York Road Runners club, a six day race race. And then he took it and he said, who do you think should get involved? I said, I heard about this guy, Andy Milroy. So yes, I know him. And the American guy was Dan Brannan, and then Gerard Stanger from France. And Malcolm got it going. And, what the beauty of it is, the World Athletics eventually did recognize 50 K 124 hours. So the vision of myself and Malcolm came. I had tears in my eyes when they really did recognize that, I said yes. How wonderful to have something, to, that World Athletics in the ultramarathon field has recognized. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's exciting. And was there any reason why they chose those three events over others that made sense to them? Was there like a process that went into choosing that first? I think it was 100 K and the 100 K was simply because it was an international distance. It's like it's like in Europe especially. Remember the IWR was more popular than even in America here. you know, the hundred K distance, not the miles. And actually I don't think they recognized world athletics really 50 miles. I could be wrong. Or a hundred miles. It's 5000 K. So first it was the 100 K, then the 24 hour, and then more recently was the 50 K, where Lyndon, was the first woman that came and did under three hours for 50 K and she was an Olympian, U.S. Olympian. Yeah, yeah, I remember that event. That was an exciting time to see because, you know, there's always that conversation. And ultrarunning too is like, what happens if some of these kinds of top tier, internationally competitive marathoners decide they want to come into ultra running? And a couple of them have I mean, C.J. Elbert. Well, I don't don't think C. J. has the 50 K world record? I know he did. it's some of these South Africans, these guys. There's one guy that won the New York City Marathon. You know, he was a South African guy, and he also won comrades, you know, and, you know, it's it's these are it's exciting to see the fast guys. Also, Ian Thompson in, many years ago, he was like a 210 marathoner and he set the 50 mile record. So these days, you even get Americans like Jim. I hope I see his name right. Walmsley. yeah, he's a 215 marathoner, so, you know, he, you know, you get the fast boys to do it. You know, it gets much more exciting. I can't wait till the 207 guys and the two of six guys say, hey, let's give this a go and then take it to a whole new level. Yeah, yeah. And that's actually just an interesting point in general, too, because I think it's like the sport has grown over kind of my time in it. It seems like the trails have gotten a lot of growth and attention, especially in North America. But the roads and the and stuff like that have kind of maintained a little bit more of its prestige, I think kind of over in Europe and South Africa. And then your comrades are probably the best example of that, given how deep those fields are and how many participants, it's I mean, it's literally like a big city marathon. I think they're almost 30,000 people at those events now or at that event now. And, there's no shortage of, like, you know, like 210 type marathoners going to that on any given year run in that 56 mile, roughly 56 mile course. so, yeah, I mean, we're not we're not void of fast runners in the sport. If you look in the right direction, you know, there's a lot of fast ultra runners, you know, I mean, there's Alberto Salazar, for example, when comrades, he was a, a 208 marathoner and he was in 214 shape and he was the first, I believe, American to win comrades. So, and you said it was the hardest thing he ever did. So the Fast Boys realize this is no small feat to go fast and long. I mean, long, long. So it's, Exciting. I'd be curious what either of your thoughts are about that too? Because I think, like, what would be the event that would maybe draw some of the fast marathoners to it that are more traditionally focusing on the marathon. And I would think comrades would have to do it just because it has competition. It has a decent sized prize purse that could maybe be attractive to them. And, you know, a lot of times I think sometimes this stuff is somewhat determined by a sponsor and things like that. You can maybe talk your sponsor into saying like, hey, yeah, we'd love to see you go after that. you know, after a win at comrades and see if that, that that's always been the one that's stuck out to me as the one that would be the most likely attractive point. Yeah. It is. It's a lot of money. And you win a car and it's the biggest race in South Africa. I mean, it's the biggest. The second biggest is the Two Oceans race, which is about 35 miles. And they attract fast guys. I mean, the guys that are, you know, 210 and under and you might have run a 210, marathon, but that marathon. But you certainly don't guarantee you're going to win the race. Yeah. And then on the women's side over the last few years you have heard us, heard a stein too, who's just been really kind of reinventing what can be done on that course on the women's side of it. Yeah. Most definitely. You know, comrades, for any of our listeners, if you want to try an exciting race, like the New York City Marathon, but it's very hilly. Comrades is the place to go. You know, they'll welcome you there for sure. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. So we get into kind of. It's actually kind of funny to think about just how young some of the more modern certification processes are relative to the sport. but we have, we have the, the, the IAU start recognizing three disciplines and world championships for all three of those as well, which I'm sure helps with that. what is the process like, though, in terms of all right, I have this event and I want it to be something that can kind of count or be recognized by that body. Is there a process that a race director kind of has to go through in order to make sure that their course and the event itself is something that if a record gets broken, they can walk away and say, hey, this was an actual certified record. Are you going to let Bob answer that? Because he's for Gomo. He's our chief, the person that's in charge of ratification. So give it to them, Bob. Yeah. Not not. I've actually never directed a race, so I haven't done this myself. But basically, if you want to set an IOU record, your race needs to have an IOU label, and it's not that hard to do that. You can fill out the form online. You do have to have your race sanctioned by your national governing body. So us, ATF, in our case it has to be a certified course. It has to be sanctioned. Those are the primary things. And then you get an IOU label. And then if your IOU is labeled then you are in a position to submit your results for record validation okay. So YOU basically kind of punts it to the governing body of whatever country it's being hosted in. And then they kind of do all the right stuff from there. And, and that's how they work that process. Yeah. Now YOU also have their own rules. and it can get a little fuzzy and messy sometimes. The pacing rule in particular is one that has become really problematic in recent years. so there's, you know, there's world athletics rules. There's IOU rules. So far, Gomo has not had any of our own rules. We have in our mission statement that we, we respect the, the, the rules and the and the records and the procedures of World Athletics and IAU. those two bodies are not so interested in multi-day. You know, IOU has the 24 hour world championships. That's as far as they go. They do still maintain records for 48 hour and six day, but they've abandoned many of their other records that they used to track for multi days, which is why Gomo is here. And Tricia Tricia can speak to that better. But It. You know, it's probably going to reach the point soon. We're a relatively new organization. We've been here about three and a half years, and we're going to need our own rules for our championship events that are more tuned to multi-day. So that's an ongoing process. But right now we are just essentially in the same boat as IAU. We need national governing body certification, of course certification and so forth. Yeah. Bob, you brought up like a perfect, I think, topic within this, which is like you sort of have this situation where you have a rule that IU has or World Athletics has that makes a ton of sense if we're looking at the events they're traditionally looking at, because I think of it like, oh yeah, if I'm racing a 10-K and I get lapped intentionally, perhaps, and then I just help pace the person who's a lap ahead of me. I mean, I'm out of that race in all intents in terms of competing, because I'm not coming back from a lap behind in a in a race that short. But we start getting, you know, even into the 100 mile distance, certainly the multi-day stuff. And these looped courses are sometimes a quarter mile long or 400m long. It's like if you get you're you could get lapped a dozen times and not be anywhere near out of it. And then like pacing off someone just to me feels like, okay, I'm in a marathon and there's a pack of maybe six guys, and I decide I'm going to kind of sit behind them. Absolutely. And pace off. And no one's batting an eye at that. Yeah. but, you know, so it's sort of like one of those rules that it makes sense and it's an original intent. But when we start trying to apply it to ultramarathon, we almost need to kind of say, okay, let's be reasonable about what the history of the sport has, has had in the past and make it make sense. Essentially. Yeah. It's yeah, a couple of things there. One is you can't, you know, in a long enough race, you don't even know if you're on the same lap as somebody else. Guy could be ten laps ahead or behind. You have no clue. You're just running together. Also, for these short loop ultras, the social aspect of running with someone is often a huge part of the experience. It really just doesn't make any sense that the problem is that the way the rule is written, it's basically left up to the race director to make a subjective call as to whether somebody is intentionally pacing or just happening to run together and they warn or DQ the runner or not. But the problem comes when later a record was set and some ratification committee has to review it and then, they have different eyes than the race director had. And if someone says, oh, this person ran with this other person for five hours, then there's a judgment call. And it's not fair to the runner because the runner was not informed they were doing anything wrong. so. This has been an issue for various records and as a result, USA Track and Field has now modified their rules and basically says that running together in a short loop ultra is not considered unfair assistance, and that that change has not been made for World Athletics or IAU. But I think it makes things so much simpler. Yes, there is a theoretical possibility for someone to go out there and just act as a pacer, but, that's also something that, as Davy Crockett has said historically, has very often been done in ultras. When Jim Walmsley ran his 50 mile world record, he had pacers, people who were in the race there to pace him now because that was a linear course. There wasn't any of this looped issue, but the point is they were there to pace him. Yes, they were legitimately in the race and this is just the way the game works sometimes. So, yeah, these are some of some of the things that we'll be struggling with as we draft our own game set of multi-day rules. Yeah. And I think it's, it's, it's something where I think even if you look at the spirit of kind of how they've structured things in shorter endurance races too, it's like, yeah, if you're at the Olympics or a World Championships, you can have pacers who, you know at the beginning are going to their intent is to drop out after they pace a certain number of laps. But for setting world records and things like that, you can. So, it does seem kind of odd that you would have a non-championship race, and have to follow a rule like that for all the reasons we said. And then even even in similarity with some of these, these other distances that are a little more kind of within the Olympic distance realm. It's funny. Speaking of Walmsley 50 mile record at the time that he ran that. Hoka was making a lot of noise. 50 mile world record. IU at the time did not recognize a 50 mile world record. 50 miles was just this weird sort of American distance. It had some historical importance in England. but it was only later, I guess there was a push by Hoka to retroactively go and ratify that once IU brought that on board as a distance that they tracked. So in a situation like that, you can go back and retro once once it starts recognizing, you can go back. And if you have the proper documentation and stuff and everything that they would need in order to, to certify it, they'll, they'll say, okay, we'll, we'll put this on the list. Yeah. IU when they did that, they went through a process of trying to find the best. Every time they add a format, they have a, you know, definition of what constitutes sufficient documentation for an initial record, because often it's not going to be, you know, submitted and ratified the way that a record that is run now was. We had the same thing when we launched Go Mu, because we track records for dozens of formats that IU does not. And in each case, we have, you know, we have criteria laid out over what constitutes sufficient knowledge and documentation for our initial records. And every record in our database is annotated. Well, whether it's initial or Gomi ratified or in the case of 48 hour and six day, those are IU records and we just reflect those into our database. And we say these are IU records or Gomi records or initial records. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah it is something where it seems like the sport now is seen as enough of a community between all these different races and distances, that it almost makes sense to me that we have sort of like a body like gumshoe that is sort of like just focusing on like, what are we trying to get out of our particular, our particular disciplines versus what, what we would maybe see somewhere else and, and have that make sense? So because right now it almost feels like there's like you got to appease like three different bodies essentially in order to have something go through. And and when I think about that, I think I like the cool thing about these time events in these flat looped courses is they, they do about as good of a job as you're going to find at leveling the playing field in terms of like anybody can, you know, with enough time, obviously go out and run a short loop and get core specific training. Whereas when we get to the trail side, it can be a little bit more opportunistic in the sense of, oh, I have access to this mountain range. Or maybe you live on the course literally, and you're training up and down those mountains all day long versus someone who's got to come from, you know, the city or has really had no chance to specifically prepare for it. But then when we layer in all these complexities in terms of chasing records because they have to be so finely, done essentially almost eliminates that value that you have from the opportunity aspect. Yeah. That's true. So with Gummo going forward, is it the goal that it branches out and covers other disciplines outside of the multi-day stuff? Or is it just basically going to try to focus on kind of 48 hours and beyond for the foreseeable future, 48 and beyond it? You know, it's like we go up to 3100 miles, you know, so from the self-transcendence 3100 and what we do is we track every if you look at our on standards, records, you'll see every 100 K and 100 miles, 2900 miles, 2500 miles, 3000 K, 4000 K, you know, so we track every 100 miles, 100 K. And then we have some standard records and we've expanded instead of just two day, six day, we have like three day, ten day, you know, the 3100 mile race. And so we, we just want to document these great performances that these athletes have done. And in the 3100 mile race, it is certified. It is measured perfectly. They're very meticulous. So, we look at all of this and we do our own ratification. Bob looks at it, I look at it, and we want to make sure that that course was measured properly. And the lap sheets, we might make sure that everything has been marked down, you know, everything has been recorded. And, you know, I go down to that race and, you know, I observe it. You know, I spend, not only have I done it, but I've almost gone every year and just watched it, and they do a terrific job. So getting back to it is that we record everything that's beyond, actually from 300 K up. So, and they're, they're such fantastic performances and it's just for a benchmark for people to have the aspirations and see if they can take it one step farther. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's one of those things where it's like with any time you have growth you're going to have some level of complexity. And then at times controversy. I think in terms of how all that stuff ends up playing out in real time. So like, I mean, the one I think that kind of jumps out to people following the sport is maybe Stein Rex's six day event. I'm blanking on the name of this specific event that she did that at, but that's been one where it's sort of been like when I look at it, I think like this seems like they did everything I would expect an organization to do in order to kind of say, okay, this event happened, this person did this, and therefore it's a new standard. But can you guys maybe fill me in on where the complexities are on that particular thing and what's maybe being worked through in that particular situation? Oh boy. This is a challenge for us and somewhat behind our, you know, need to establish our own rules. We don't want anything to be confusing for the athlete about what they need to do to set a record. In this case, this was a six day race in Denmark at Abu Bro. where Steen Rex surpassed Camille's six day world record. it's not been ratified. It was IAU labeled. It's very clear that she ran the distance. The issue again is pacing. And, the race director and Steen were all convinced they were following the pacing rules. the race director did not say, you can't do this during the race. The IAU Records Ratification committee has had a different perspective. So this is kind of very frustrating to us because we care about these things quite a lot. The six day world record is a wonderful thing. We are not currently in the position of being the ones that ratify six days because we want, you know, our goal is to serve the community as well as we can. And when we first started, we said, well, we don't want to create any confusion by having our own set of 48 hour and six day records that are going to conflict with IAS. Going forward, I don't really know what's going to happen, but we need to make it clearer, to our athletes, what is expected and required of them and make the process, you know, much more consistent and streamlined. So, it's definitely something that weighs on our mind and is going to inform our, our rules that we come up with for our multi-day events. Also we have world championships and my dream is to have her come back to Poland where we have the Gomo 48, our world championship, and I hope she can do better there. You know, at least 48 hours. And then we have a six day world championship, which Bob is going to. And he's one of the big representatives for the USA. Good job Bob. And, he's, you know, there's some women like Meg Eckert and Irina Casanova and they are shooting. They're going to be perhaps the first woman to do 606. You know, I know Irina. She's pretty intensely training, and she, and the same with Meg. Meg Eckhart, a fantastic talent. She can do it all. And, you know, I would love to see them take it one step further. And in those events, there won't be any pacing problems. You know, it's at the Gomo championships. You know, we're making sure that all criteria are met, you know, and we're going to make sure that, you know, as I say, all eyes are dot, all t's across and that, you know, there's not going to be any, the courses are measured accurately. And we also, you know, we have, course certifiers before and after, and also the timers are the best in, say, in France or in Poland is going to be the best. And, you know, we have it live, it's going to be tracked and live streamed. So there's no, everybody can watch work, observe and see the reality that's happening. Yeah. And I mean, one of the reasons why I even brought it up was because I think it's like it's one of those things where I think people passively hear these things. They think like, oh, well, you know, that's you can't do that. Or, you know, the athlete was how do we know if they were doing something nefarious or not? We can't get in their head. And no, but I mean, I even know I remember when I did the 100 mile US Road Championships in 2021, I won it. And, it was like, I'm running around this like 1.17 mile loop, and there was a person who wasn't in the event who was just kind of spectating, who was just out there because it's like an open it's not closed. It's not like it's not like at the Olympics where like if someone jumps out on the track, they're going to get tackled immediately. So this, this, this, this kid was basically just following me. I was probably like, maybe 70 miles in. And I just looked over at Lin, gentlemen, who was the US ATF rep after, like he had been kind of tagging along before. I was like, hey, like I was because I was pretty aware that that was probably not something that was going to be acceptable, or if it was or I was uncertain to some degree. And I was, you know, I wasn't looking to get dq'd for something that I wasn't trying to do. So there's like this element of like uncontrolled ability to where, you know, you have like these events and these scenarios, and there's participants out there, there's spectators out there. And, you know, someone could be out there running for five plus days and not have any control over what people are doing around them. And then, you know, nowadays, too, there's video cameras on everything. So it can be pretty easy just to kind of grab a clip and say like, hey, look, this was illegal. And, kind of create controversy where maybe there was none. Absolutely. Yeah. Also, I can say that regardless of who the governing body is, whether it's the, you know, well, of course, World athletics is really the only governing body. But if it's the IAU or Gomo or, or any of these organizations, anybody outside of the competitors cannot be with that runner because then it is illegal pacing. One type of pacing is if the runner is in the race, but it's certainly not at our championships. Will we ever allow somebody from the outside ever to even go a step with that person? You know, they might handle them, let's say, if it's their handler, but hand them their water, go to steps. But there is, even in ultrarunning today, there is a limit on how far the person can go. There's like a little area, how far a person can, the pacer can hand the refreshment to them. Yeah, yeah. The transition zones and, and it seems like they've, they've gotten that pretty well dialed at like the Hunter K World Championships and stuff like that. It's set up a lot more like you would imagine an event where there's, it's pretty clear like this is a core stay off of it. And these are transition zones that don't take aid outside of them and things like that. So, part of it's probably just kind of getting to that point where we have the infrastructure to really be able to kind of put those things in place and, and properly kind of observe and stuff like that. I did want to ask because I know we've talked a little bit about the pacing side of things. Are there any other rules that have sort of been floating around the ultra world that just don't really make sense, that, or maybe rules that do make sense, that aren't in place, that aren't on other one, or like the more traditional stuff that would be recognized by the the larger governing bodies that that you guys are looking at to see if we can kind of come to a consensus within kind of the multi-day or ultra world shoes, you know. Yeah. Good question. You know, the shoes, you know, usually the stack height has to be 40mm or under and have one carbon plate. And these days there's a lot of controversy around the shoes, a lot of the shoes. and there was a recent episode with, at the jackpot where a runner did a fantastic performance under 12 hours, also for 100 miles. And this poor runner, his shoes were above the stack height, and he was, he didn't win the national championship because of it. So there's always, you know, the IAU, has to, really, give much stricter, You know, guidance for the shoes. But as far as we have it right now, it's 40mm and under. And there's also a World Athletics list that, you have to have the shoe sanctioned, you know, it's like the shoe has to be, the World Athletics have to approve it. Approve of it. So, there's all these things with shoes. And in the old days, the old pedestrians had only leather shoes, you know, and then in my day, it was not a problem. You know, we just had our, you know, the waffle trainers, the Nike waffle trainers and so forth. So the stack height was never a problem, but stack height and carbon plates change things a bit now in the super long stuff. I don't think a carbon plate in a multi day is going to really help after 24 hours. In fact it's probably going to be a hindrance. But it's the cushioning of the shoe. So that's going to have to be dealt with. And you know it's but everything else there seems to be a lot of the rules that the IWR has that make a lot of sense. And they, all they care about is really, good sportsmanship and fair play. So, you know, a level playing field. And at Goma also we just want a level playing field. And good sportsmanship is really important to us. And just, you know, bring all the world's best together and have a go at raising the bar, and, our rules will be in play, within a year. And, we're bringing some people that are going to really help us to define these rules and, Here. They're narrowing down on something. Yeah. Yeah. It is interesting because I remember when the shoe regulations first came out, because there's some divergence between track and road to where the 40mm single plate rule is a road rule, whereas on the track it's actually 25mm I believe. So there was a little bit of a conversation about that with ultrarunning because, I mean, we do some of these on a track. So it's like, well, do we follow the 25 millimeter rule or is it like the 40 millimeter rule? And I think if I remember, the 40 millimeter one is the one they go buy on, because aren't we even looking at track surfaces now as basically are we or world Athletics isn't even acknowledging track anymore. Right. They're calling it all road or open, I believe. So I think that at least in the ultra field, it used to be, in my day in the 80s, it would be road records, track records, indoor records. Now it's just whatever the best one is, road, track or indoor. And so they, they, the rules back when I did them. Weird as I'm not saying strict. We were very strict, but there weren't as many. And so the shoe rule, we just wore whatever shoe there was, we were happy to wear them. Yeah. I actually it's funny that you mentioned that because I put up a post in anticipation of this, this episode on, on Instagram, and I had one of the clips that or one of the pictures said like that the sport dated back to the 1700s, and someone commented on and said said running shoes weren't even invented until the late 1800s. What were these people wearing? Their shoes. And that's what fascinated all of us. You know, when we started out, these guys ran 600 miles in leather shoes. And even the great Ted Corbett, you know, his shoes, they were like, sometimes you would go running in leather shoes, you know, or, you know, it's. And also another thing is technology today, it's fantastic. Back then, we're dealing with, you know, dirt tracks now. They're better surfaces and, so, you know, that also comes into play. Yeah. The shoe thing just to drill down a little bit more. It is kind of a critical issue right now because, you know, World Athletics has this now. And it was this rule that said you have to be below 40mm stack height and no more than one carbon plate. Now they have an explicit list of approved shoes. And as I believed last November, IOU. As is saying that for IAU sanctioned events and records, shoes have to be on this list. Problem is that the majority of the shoes on it are obsolete. and the majority of shoes that are not obsolete, that are on the list, or carbon plate shoes, there's actually a very small number of road shoes that are available in the US that are on that list, like five. and none of them are by major manufacturers. A really serious issue for me is 24 hour team management. But also I have friends looking to set records and pull their hair out because, There's no incentive for the shoe manufacturers to push through these shoes that are not going to be used for, you know, ten K world records or whatever, because people running multi days don't want these, these carbon plate shoes. But what are we supposed to do to set our records? So it's an issue again where Gomo needs the rules, existing rules that are out there are not suitable for multi-day. Is it the carbon plate stuff that is the biggest concern with the multi-day. Or is there a stack height consideration to where they would think about maybe removing that element. No, I think that everybody is good with the 40 millimeter stack height. It's just that there's just not that many shoes on that list. And we need to go back to something like a blanket, you know, under 40mm, no more than one plate. everybody would be happy. Well, almost everybody would be happy with that. I know with one I know of one major, one person who would not be happy with it. But yeah, we can live with that. Yeah. And some of it is just like, I mean, I, I got asked this question a few times too, because when I ran my world record, I wasn't wearing super shoes. I was wearing basically a marathon racing flat. So my claim to fame is still, I might have the fastest hundred mile time in a non-super shoe. So awesome. but hopefully if I lower my time, it'll probably be in a super shoe. So there is that. But but yeah, I mean, it is one of those things where it's like to some degree, like, you know, I find myself in this situation, I guess, where it's like when I started running super Shoes didn't exist and when a lot, I mean, a lot of old runners are probably in that boat where now we have this transition where, you know, similar to like in swimming with the speed suit, which they went the opposite direction and pulled it. Or, you know, cycling is probably an even better example where, you know, these bikes have gotten better and better and better over the years to the degree where there's a meaningful performance difference between, you know, a carbon fiber bike frame and a steel frame by frame. And there's a meaningful difference between like a super shoe with the premium foams and a plate versus, you know, the, the old kind of racing flats that people would want to wear to try to get away with maybe in the past. So yeah, I mean, some of it I think is just like you kind of just got to roll with the changes to some degree where, you know, sports are going to innovate, things are going to change. And like, you know, if, if I was setting records in the 1980s, there's really nothing I can do about it. And if it's not the shoes, it's going to be something else eventually. So I think we're like that we're paying attention to these things and not letting it go, like turning it into an entirely different sport altogether. But, some, some innovation has to be acceptable, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Technology. You know, there's nothing wrong with technology. And we advance with technology. And you know, what we did in the 1980s was, or the 90s, was a different era. You know, they say a generation is every 20 years. And, you know, there was one generation from the 1980s to 2000 and there's a new generation. And as I said, there were once just dirt tracks. Now there are rubberized tracks. And so the performances are better, you know, there's a little more spring. So you just have to salute the era in which it was and appreciate what they did at that time. So in the old pedestrian races, the leather shoes were on all of them. And then what we did in the 1980s, with, with just regular old sneakers, you know, that's awesome too. And so we just have to recognize but we also have to, go move forward with technology. And Gomo is 100% behind technology, you know. How it rolls. Yeah. And I think to some degree it's just it's also just kind of like an athlete and as like, you know, record breaking athletes in the sport. I think it's probably just like a healthy thing to look at it through that lens of, you know, this is going to be something where I broke this record. It's probably not going to stand forever. So eventually it's going to get broken. And when it gets broken, there's a good chance it'll be some innovations that were involved along the way, especially as we span out through generations, like you said Tressel. And then and then I think that just yeah, that just incentivizes us to kind of do what we're doing today, talk about the history of the sport, be able to kind of compartmentalize these things in a way where we can look back at some of the races that were done decades ago and really appreciate, wow, they did that without this, or they did that with this hurdle that we don't have anymore. And that's really impressive. And I think that if anything, that probably helps cement the legacy, you know, better than just trying to preserve records based on having us run around in leather shoes like they did in the 1800s. You know, records, records are borrowed. They're never owned. Exactly. You know, it's like that's the most important thing, I think. if you can be detached when somebody breaks your record and whatever that record may be, and offer good sportsmanship by congratulating that person, job well done. I think that's the most important thing. You know, the standard is going to get better and better. And the athletes, the faster guys, those 207 marathoners that try the 50 mile or the hundred mile and they're just got the lake speed to do better. And plus we also have better nutrition. So, then it was in my day, you know, there was much more, you know, electrolyte replacement, supplementation. So the main thing is saluting technology, but we can salute and say kudos to the records. That was Yeah. Well, we're I guess we're just blessed to have the problem of a sport that's so old that we can go back and compartmentalize it into so many different categories of what we had available to us at the time. Cool. yeah. So what? Anything else that's exciting, that's coming up with Gummo and just, timed events and longer ultras and stuff in general that you guys are thinking about as we kind of grow as a sport. Well, Gomo, what I can say as the president of Gomo and Bob as the record keeper, we're excited about our world championships. And what I would like to see is a better American representation. A lot of these, even though we're self-selected, you know, these are championships. And what's beautiful about what we're doing is age groups. So we get people that set world age group records in our races. Sometimes when you have it federation based, you only take the best athlete to do that type of championship. And but we I chose self-selected because it's, it's everybody gets a vote. It's all inclusive. And the multi days are not just about the greatest performances in the open division. But you know people we've had records for an 85 year old and you know these matter too. And you know I'm in the 65 to 69 age group you know. And it was fantastic to watch. The 6 or 7 guys that were in my age group, the world's best go at it and see a world age group record, by, Anatoly Kruger of Russia, you know, and these championships are championships inside themselves. The age group championships, you know, like the and then the open. And we're all one big happy family, you know, trying to raise the bar so, you know, go. We're we're excited to have our championships have the world's best be there. And you'll see it in the 48 hour. We have some of the three best men and women. They're going to duke it out. we have Matthew Bone and Bart, who is from Belgium, who set the world record for six days. He's trying to break Cora's 48 hour record. We have Bartos finale from Poland, and then, Mister Petrovsky, he who runs over 300 K or 188 miles, for 24 hours. He's, he's he's trying also for the record. And then on women's side, we have Victoria Brown and Steen Rex. And then of course, we have, what's her name? Patricia Baranowski, out of Poland. So it's exciting that in the open division, these people are coming forward and trying to up the ante and then. But it's also exciting to see the best age group runners in our races. you know, to duke it out like me. I had tears in my eyes to see the world aging record, broken. And how about Don Winkle? He says, you know. Yeah, he's in the 85 year old age group, and he. This guy, what was his name? Paul Bozo from Hungary. He said he came back to me afterwards on, weekly and said, I got my clock cleaned by both walking on the track. And it was just wonderful to see that, you know, the spirit of competition, no matter what your age is, you know, and, and Gome was about all inclusive, being all inclusive with all the age groups and, you know, all the countries we just want to see in the bar raised and you know, we're about, you know, presenting with the records. Ah and, and for people to go out and our championships and try to better them. Yeah. You reminded me in in 2021 I think actually a couple of years after it kind of continued because it sort of gained a little momentum I think we're at the Hunter Mile Road Championships there were four men in the 80 plus division and it was just like in prior years, like if you got one, one person of that age, it would have been like, wow, this is cool. And then on top of it, like, if you finish, you're probably going to win. If you're that old now, you could be off the podium and be 80 years for your age group. So I remember they did a big story about that one, because that was kind of the big kind of I mean, that's the cool thing about our sport too, is there's like so much storytelling potential here. So you can kind of really lean into those things that would maybe be a little more obscure, because they have such a kind of eye catching type of a scenario to them. Yeah. I'm really excited about where the multi-day trip is going now. I mean, if you look back to the the heyday of the late 19th century, six day races where, you know, they would have them in Madison Square Garden, and there's enormous prize purses and the records. You know, if you talk to Davy Crockett, you just head on. He'll tell you that the six day men's American record is James Albert's 621 miles. That's not the record that's on the books for us, ATF, that's Joe Figgis 606. so how is it they were running over 600 miles in the 19th century with the shoes they had. It was that was the thing. It was like the NASCAR of the late 19th century. There's enormous money in it, an enormous interest in it. And, you know, the sport of of six day and multi-day running died for, for decades. And it's been back for several decades now. But just in this last year, we saw the men's and the women's six day records fall. We've had 48. Our Johnny's still has his 48 hour, but a women's 48 hour has has fallen. And I I'd like to think that Gomo is, is, especially our world championship races. thanks. Thanks to Tricia's vision here has has played a big part in, reviving interest. And I'm just really excited to see where it goes from here. We've got, you know, for such a long time, Janice was just so much better than everybody else. It's like, what? Why bother? You know, he has like, the top ten best 48 hours, right? And it was the same with 24 hour and six day. Why bother trying to go compete against Janice? There's Janice and there's everybody else. But now his 24 hour record is gone, a six day record is gone. And people are it's sort of, you know, like maybe when the four minute mile was broken. I think we're back in the glory days of multi-day racing again, and it's really exciting to be part of it. Yeah. So I tell the listeners, Isaac, you know, this is now the golden age of multi-day running is coming. And, you know, be part of it and observe it. And, you know, it's a special time. So, you know, I just would, love, more Americans and, to, you know, hey, take the here's an opportunity to be in a world championship. It's self-selected. And I would love you guys. You know, the Harvey loses. You know, I know he's involved with the backyards. You know the Harvey loses. Come out. or, you know, the people on his level. You know, duke it out and see where you can take it, you know, and, so. But and I think they will, you know, the two guys, the Belgians that did the backyard that have the record, they're coming to, France World Championship. And, you know, there's a few other guys you might not have heard of and they're just under the radar. And, you know, they might have some real surprises. And, once they do what other people said, I can do that too. So, it's the golden age, you know. Yeah. Nowadays things can catch on so quickly too, I think just like from when I started running ultras in 2010 to today, it was like when I would talk to people in the running community about ultramarathons. It would be you'd get strong runners and you'd say like, hey, would you ever consider doing a 100 miler? And they're like, oh no, I would never want to do a hundred miler. Like, I can't do a hundred miles or something like that. And now it's like I see more people. They'll reach out to me for coaching or something like that, and they'll be like, yeah, I've never run before and I think I want to do a hundred mile race. It's like you get so much momentum and some of it's just from the outside too, where you get like some random influencer or you get like some big personality like David Goggins or something like that, decide they want to challenge themselves in some epic way. And, you know, that just lends itself to the multi-day stuff, because you're always going bigger and higher mileage and things like that with that sort of mentality. So I think you're right. I think we're going to see a huge resurgence in the multi-day stuff, especially as a sport continues to grow in the shorter stuff, too. You're going to always have people looking for you like, you know, what's next? Or maybe I'll try this out and then, you know, like someone like Courtney De Walter who hasn't been shy about, you know, dipping her toe into some of the stuff that are maybe not her, like her typical passion on the on the trails and things like that, I think are really cool for the sport to see, to see that sort of stuff happen and when more people get interested in it. There's also trails. These are multi days as well. What Courtney does. There's a 200 mile run. You know in a day they're done in three days because of the elevation gain or just of the technical footing whatever it may be. And now there's a group putting on a 300 mile trail race and, you know, our Viper is, you know, they have their coca donna 250. Well, some of these races, they're all in the single track trails, and these races aren't going to take you a day, two days, or even three days for the normal guy. not the elite. It's going to take him four days, 50 miles a day. So these are multi days as well. And, you know, as I said, also the backyards, the backyards are multi days in a different kind of format. But you know four miles an hour until a rock till you drop. And you know it's it's it's basically you know those are multi days too. And it's exciting times. most definitely. Yeah. And some of it's just having like the infrastructure there too. And I think this is what I really appreciate about organizations like Viper because like, you know, if Jamil just wanted to maximize profits, he would just lean into like a handful of his events that are, like probably carrying the lion's share of the revenue. But like, he's interested in the history of the sport. So having events like across the years and Desert Solstice available to kind of have that there. So when that surge of interest comes, there's like legit places to go and do it. And I think like, yeah, growing, growing that and seeing that framework in place and being able to replicate it is going to be important as we start seeing these things grow along with, you know, everything that goes into it with Gummo and getting the certifications and all that stuff set up so that people know when they're going to something that they, they, they can take a fair crack at something that's going to get recognized if they have a good day. Yeah. As I said, you know, and there's also on the East Coast here in the United States, there's some new ones popping up. There's like the old sixth day and Philadelphia, you know, and even in the there's not true ultras for those trail people. They have the three day race, two day race. So, on the East Coast, there's new, multi days starting to come alive. And it's as I said, you know, more and more people are going to give it a go and, and you know, it can only go so fast, but they're curious to see how far they can go. And that's what interested me. You know, I could only go so fast. You know, I just can't go any faster. But how far can I go? And there's different formats to try. There's two day records, three day records, six day records, ten day records, thousand miles, 1000 K. And it keeps going on. And he gives you an opportunity to set a national record in your age group or in your, a world age group record. you know, you might be good enough to do a thousand k, world Record for the, the 50 to 55. And so gives incentive to people that will say, gosh, I could actually set a world record and give them the incentive to, to try these things. So it's good stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bob, one thing I was going to ask you to that, that that Dave shared with me was because one question, I was like, you know, when he's explaining, like the what you were mentioning before about how popular those six days were, where I think he said, like the top six day runners were making the equivalent of today's standards, half $1 million a year, sometimes from, you know, going around and doing these events. Yeah. And so you start thinking like, well, what happened? Like why did it kind of just stop happening? And he said it was like a lot of regulations making it essentially illegal to put these events on because essentially they were stealing a lot of market from participation in things like theater and even, you know, churches and things like that. And that's why a lot of the events started getting suppressed. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. you know, you know why it's six days, right? Because you can't do anything on Sunday between, you know, a maximal endurance thing in the Victorian era. It has to be. Not on Sunday. I've heard that also, bicycles came along and bicycle races started taking people away. I know there was a popular movement against these sorts of things. They were seen to be, cruel, the, you know, and just sort of, sideshow kind of thing, parading people around who are just beating themselves to death. I don't, you know, Davey would know a lot better than I would. What actually transpired with the original demise. But, it's a shame. Yeah. And it's probably a variety of things. Like you mentioned, it's that that kind of lends itself to making it just too difficult for people to want to be able to do it or be able to do it. And then, you know, decades go past and all of a sudden it's almost non-existent for a while. But we'll get the resurgence. One way or the other. Yeah. I also believe it was the bicycle. back then, you know, the bicycle came popular. And so that grabbed people's attention. The audience who watched these races. And so the interest waned because there was the new era of the bicycle. And then I think it had a little resurgence with the Bunyan Derbies, which went across America in 1929 and maybe 1928, 1929. So there's always something new. But, but for the modern times, it's, it's we've been doing this. The first race was in 1980, The Spirit of 80, which was created by Don Choi. And so we've been at it now. Oh, gosh, over 40 years. And I think it's going to keep going on. Maybe this will be the hundred years. There'll be a 100 year anniversary in the future, you know, and who knows. But I think it's here to stay. Awesome. Well, I just want to thank both of you guys for taking some time to chat about this stuff. I it's just great that we have people like you in the community that are as interested as you are, and I'm sure tons of volunteer hours go into a lot of this stuff where where like, you know, someone like me can just tap into the resources that you've put out there and learn more about what the sport was like and kind of where it's heading and things like that. But yeah, I really appreciate all you've done and taking some time to come on in your chat. Thank you for having both Bob and I. You know, we're very grateful. And, that thank you very, very much for having us and looking forward to anybody. come out and watch the multi days. Yeah, yeah. Speaking of that, where can people find both of you online or are there websites and things people can head to if they want to learn more? como.org. That's where that's our organization. Go to gomo.org and we have a Facebook group page where I try to put all different things on about the multi days. So you know you can join that group. you know, the global Facebook group page and our website, Algoma. Org and, you know, become our Facebook friend, you know, and then, we talk all about it. Yeah, there's all sorts of good stuff on the Facebook page, as well as the ultrarunning history page, too. That's sort of reinvigorated my use of Facebook to some degree in those two spots. Yeah. And also Instagram. We also have an Instagram account, you know, and we just got to go and go to the morgue. We also have photos of all our world championships on Instagram. So, you know, that might inspire people as well. Perfect. Well, I'll definitely link all that stuff in the show notes too, so listeners can head over there and click on that and follow and check out and get, get, get motivated to. Who knows, maybe someone will learn from this episode that they're a six day runner and go and break the six day world record or something like that. It'd be awesome, I hope. That's what it's all about. Thank you. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Thanks, guys. Okay.