Episode 430: Running Shoes with Brady Holmer

For this episode, Brady and I dive into a group of running shoes that we have been putting through the paces the last couple of months, as well as touched on some models that we have worn historically. We also share some thoughts around running shoe considerations in general. Shoes covered include: Mizuno Neo Zen and Wave Rebellion Pro 3, Puma Deviate Nitro Elite 3, Mount to Coast R1 S1 and P1, Xero HFS II, Nike Zoom Fly 6, and Altra Vanish Carbon II.

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Timestamps:

00:00:00 Introduction to Running Shoe Reviews

00:04:00 Mizuno Neo Zen

00:16:00 Premium Foams Gaining Longevity

00:19:00 Some Final Thoughts on Mizuno Neo Zen

00:20:42 Mizuno Wave Rebellion Pro 3

00:35:27 Mount to Coast R1, S1, P1

00:45:55 Puma Deviate Nitro Elite 3

00:59:50 Xero HFS II

01:10:00 Minimalist & Low Profile Shoes

01:17:40 Nike Zoom Fly 6

01:20:40 Altra Vanish Carbon II

01:27:00 Closing Thoughts

Episode Transcript:

Alright Brady welcome back to the show. And I did check after last time. This is number four. Okay. So three of prior appearances. But this one's new because this time we're diving into shoes. Yeah for sure something a new topic is kind of different from what we usually talk about which is science. I'm sure we'll like talk training, maybe a bit of science today, but yeah. Yeah. Shoe reviews, getting into something new. I'm excited. Yeah, I think it'll be fun. And it's been a fun process so far. I mean, we're both kind of we're not new to running shoes, but we're both new to taking a more of a thorough approach like this. So the first round, it's just been kind of like shoes coming in from all sorts of different directions and trying to get the right setups so that eventually we have access to early releases and things like that. So I think building off this episode will be fun in the future when we can sort of pick and choose timings and things like that a little bit more. So for here, I think we can touch on some stuff. I know we talked a little bit about just I've had obviously I've had a ton of experience with ultra, so I can cover some of their stuff just without having to do any homework. And then, um, the ones that we got that are both kind of new to us, which were some of those Mizuno shoes, the Puma, deviate, Nitro Elites, um, then the multi coast shoes and then the Xero HFS II. We're kind of the ones that I put the most mileage on for this round and then. We've got a huge stock of stuff coming up too that are kind of interesting, from shoes that I didn't even know were on the market when they reached out to me. Uh, like Halo. I don't know if you've seen anything about them. They're new, but they've got just one model. But I played around with that shoe a little bit. But that's to future episodes obviously some New Balance stuff coming up. Um, what else did we have in there? Um, yeah. I haven't had a chance to look at them yet. We just loaded a bunch like a box of ten pairs, I think, into my car. So, yeah, I'm getting ahead of myself here, and, uh, it's like Christmas every couple of weeks. Yeah. And then I think we could probably just hit on just some of your kind of go-tos because you've been running consistently for, for a while. For forever. Seemingly. Presumably. Yeah. Seemingly forever. Yeah. So like, you're kind of current shoe rotation, you probably have a lot of info on just kind of the user case for those and why you like them, what they're kind of built for and things like that. So if you want to take a little bit of a dive into some of those, we can jump into them as well. Yeah. Sure thing. I'm happy to talk about, you know, the ones that we received that were kind of you and I are both formally testing right now, the two pairs, Mizuno and the Pumas. And then in addition to kind of what some of my go-tos are right now, I know we didn't get sent these, but I'm running in the zoom fly six from Nike. Um, Asics Nova Blast. That's kind of another go. And then like the Alpha Fly two, Alpha Flight three I use for a lot of workouts. Um, so, I don't know, maybe we may start with, uh, I guess my go to kind of shoe for the ones that we've been testing right now, the Mizuno Neo Zen is one that I have really been loving a lot. Um, I would consider this one, like, an everyday trainer type of thing. I mean, it really, really has been serving a purpose for any run that I want to do. I think the only thing that I haven't put it through right now is like a long run of like 20 miles or so, but, um, just given how it performs on like a medium long run, like 14, 15, um, I would, you know, posit that it would hold up quite longer. And I'm sure you've done some long stuff in it, but, um, it's I would consider it like a super trainer, you know, there's no play in it. It's just the foam. But it feels very responsive. It's pretty thick, you know, it's got a decent amount of cushion on it, but, um, very responsive. So if I'm doing, say, a medium long up tempo run, even an easy run, I've done a lot of recovery runs in there. Doubles, easy doubles. That's kind of like I'm going to use this. Whatever the run is going to be that day. My daily trainer, that's kind of been one of those in my rotation right now. And I think actually, this is the first time ever in my life that, you know, you said I've been running forever, but I think the first time I've ever ran in a mizuno shoe. Yeah. And I know these are a bit different, though, because they typically have their wave rider line and stuff, and so I never had a chance to try those. But, um, it seems like Mizuno kind of went in a different direction with the neo zen, something different than maybe some of their older shoes. But yeah, my first time in Mizuno, I was very impressed by the way that it fits too. I mean, it fits like a sock you don't really feel like. I think it's just a single, basically piece of fabric on the top that, um, is fitting there. So it fits very well. Super comfortable. Probably one of the more comfortable shoes I've ever worn. Um, I didn't have any issues, like right out of the box. You know, sometimes you get the either on your, uh, Achilles tendon or, like, in the front of your foot, you get the little aches and stuff or it, like, digs into your skin, but nothing with this one. So I love the fit. I've been putting that through again. Yeah, like just pulling that out and doing it on my easy daily training runs. Or if I want to go a little bit up tempo. I haven't done any workouts in it lately. Um, but like that six minute per mile pace, which is kind of like an upper end of zone two ish kind of right now. Um, it's perfect for that. So that's kind of my ideal use case for my daily trainer. Yeah, yeah. Mizuno as a brand has surprised me. If you had told me, like, a few months ago. All right, you're going to pivot from exclusivity with ultra and start doing shoe reviews. What brand is going to be the one that is just like going after it? I would have never picked Mizuno. Yeah, totally. But between the Wave Rebellion and neo Zen, I think they really are putting together a pretty cool set of shoes. Uh, the neo zen, the. I always cringe when I see a brand say like, oh, this is sort of a shoe that does it all because I'm like, okay, that thing's going to suck at everything, right? Or maybe not suck at everything, but it's going to be just okay at everything. And then you're going to kind of have like, yeah, if you need one shoe and that's all you're going to have, then those type of shoes may be the reality, but, you know, a lot of people nowadays are kind of getting some variety and also recognizing their shoes tend to last longer when they have kind of a rotation versus just beating up the same pair for a variety of different things all the time. So it can even be a cost savings to have multiple shoes. But the neo zen, I didn't really feel like they stepped out of line with that marketing push because it sort of does really, really well from easy up to what I would call maybe a session shoe. So even like a workout I've done. I've done everything in it other than race, and that's probably where I would draw the line. Not because I don't think it'd be an okay racing shoe. I think it probably outperforms some racing shoes out there, but the racing shoe market now is so sophisticated, you're just going to find faster shoes, including ones on their own lineup. But the thing I like about that shoe was, like you said, that upper it's just kind of like a knit sock fit. So you do want to get the sizing right on that one, I think. I think if you get like half a size too big, even it can get maybe a little sloppy because it's a little stretcher. Or if you have something really low, maybe someone with a moderate to larger volume foot wouldn't have this issue at all. But if someone has a more narrow foot, I think if they go into that one and they're like a half size off, they might feel like it's a little sloppier. They have to like, really ratchet down those laces. So I did find the place right. Um, I made that shoe a little bit better on my foot. Uh, I do like, you know, coming out of foot shaped toe boxes. I did like what they did with their foot shape. It was. Or their toe box. It was a little roomier than some of the other models I've been in, uh, in the past that don't have that foot shaped design. It had my, my only criticism, I think, with the toe box was and this is kind of the reality of most shoes is they have like the one that inside it always kind of rolls in. And if it rolls in just right. I can kind of feel the fabric is touching my toe, and it's not probably a performance thing. I'd probably just notice it because I'm not used to that versus it becoming something you just ignore because it's not really it's not rubbing. It's not like putting a pressure point or anything like that, but it's just like it'd be if I was walking and someone had a finger on my shoulder. It wouldn't be like doing anything negative to me. But I would know that finger was there. And I noticed that when I didn't have the lacing right, when I got the lacing right, I hardly noticed that at all. Uh, but yeah, I mean, that foam just bounces nicely. It definitely does. I found that it was the perfect balance between being way too soft and like, way too kind of rigid. Um, like, honestly, it was, uh, yeah. Somewhere like in between, you know, hard to kind of describe it, but it was. Yeah. They got something right with that for sure. Yeah. The this is a shoe that I picked to do like a durability test for, which is something I want to do with like every time we get like a new round of shoes, pick one that is going to work well for me in training so that I can actually justify putting that many miles on it and just take it till it breaks and just see like, okay, what did this one get out of it? And one thing I've been doing with that one, because I'm up to about 300 miles in it now, so it's getting to that, what I call like an entrenched point of what you should expect out of a shoe. I think most brands are gonna probably target like 3 to 500 miles. And so I'm getting up to that kind of entry point where you're probably going to start seeing some signs of wear. So when I get stopped at an intersection or something like that, or I put them on for the first time, I'm always like, okay, how does this foam still feel nice and soft? Is it still kind of rebounding well, or does it feel like dead or something like that? And it still has that same kind of resilience to it from when I first put it on, which has been great. The other thing, I think Mizuno, between this and the Wave Rebellion, their outsoles are really nice. Like. There, there. The outsole on the neo Zen especially, it's full rubber. So you know, brands go different directions with this because full rubber usually means extra weight. So then they try to get a little bit more like specifically, we'll put the rubber where we need to and we can lighten up the shoe. You get someone who's got a different foot strike, and all of a sudden they're just like blowing through the bottom of their shoe. So the full rubber outsole kind of takes care of that. Everyone's going to have that. And it's just this really thin material, though. It's not very thick rubber. So my first thought was like, I hope that lasts. Like it doesn't just like wear through that rubber really quick. Uh, because they tried to find that balance between full rubber and light. And I haven't had any real wear on the rubber to the degree that I. It looks like, okay, I don't have rubber there anymore. Now I'm pushing up into the foam and that's at 300 miles. So, uh, I'm, I'm impressed with like, what they did with that side of the shoe too, is just the outsole on it. Um, I can look at the specs a little bit on this one. I have them written down, just so people know and I don't know, we'll go super deep into specs just because that's available to anyone who wants to look it up, but some people are interested in that just right off the gate to consider them. They're they're a four foot, 34 millimeter heel, 40 millimeter. So it's pretty much a max cushion. Um, I put that in like a trainer session type category. 8.5oz would be the men's size nine. And then their foam is like a nitrogen infused TPU. So, you know, with these foams, I'm going to have some guests on that. We're going to deep dive into foams so that if people want to kind of get an idea of what that market looks like, we can avoid having to do that, like every episode for sure. But basically what I think I'll say is, like, you kind of have like from the new foams, you sort of have these like, will you have the ones that are like kind of stand out, like the PBR, like the zoom stuff that like Nike came out? Well, Nike didn't come out with it necessarily, but they were the ones that put it on shoes. And that sort of over the years has been kind of the gold standard. And more recently they've started like brands that started playing around with like these, these nitrogen infused like supercritical foams, which is just basically like these pockets that they put into the foam, which is supposed to kind of bring that efficiency up. So the way I like to describe it simply is like old shoes you're looking at like 75% efficiency. You start putting like these higher performance foams, like what Nike's came out with. You're getting up into the 90s sometimes. So some of these supercritical foams are now pushing up towards that as well. So a lot of brands are looking at I think like this is my assumption anyway. How do we take something that performs close to or at what you're going to do with the traditional original super foams, but not have to be $250. So some of these supercritical foams allow you to do that? I think because the neo zen I think is $150 or something like that. Retail. Yeah, 150, 170 or something like that. So which I mean seems pretty standard for running shoes these days. I mean, I remember, you know, I'm sure you remember as well when running shoes used to be like $90 to $100. The good old days, like a hundred bucks. They got a pair of running shoes and now it's. Yeah, it's about half a half a pair now. Yeah. To one, not the other. Well, one thing I think I actually had someone who follows fellows along when they saw that we were going to do this, reached out, and I thought it was a great idea that, uh, I need to get organized enough to actually do it, but he's like, you guys should cover, like, one shoe or a shoe every once in a while where it's like a prior model that's on sale. That is just a great shoe, but now it's just older, so it's not going to he's like, because I, he's like, I coach high school kids and some of these families have like 3 or 4 kids and they're buying like multiple pairs of shoes. It's like thousands of dollars of shoes. Totally. Yeah. For one season. Like so if they can get a shoe that is like basically on par, but not 150, not $250. Um, so I think that's probably a good idea. And I'm sure, you know, there's sales all over the place. So maybe pointing to something like, hey, if you're looking for a budget shoe at. This point is still going to perform at a high level. Check this one out before it's completely gone. Yeah, no, I think that would be a good idea. And like even I mean, there are even some shoes out there that, you know, a couple come to mind, like the Hoka Clifton or the Hoka Max six. Like, those are both shoes that I've run in. And yeah, their Mark six I think is one of the newer ones. But the Hoka Clifton Nine, I mean, they're coming out with a new one soon. So you can get that one for 110, $120. And like they're great shoes. And yeah, I just think sometimes, you know when the newer models come out you're like, oh the old model must suck. But in a lot of the cases like, well, I ran in the nine before, so why do I need to run the ten now? I can use the nine again. And it's going to be great for like Clifton just to use that example. But you know, Saucony I think would be another great brand. But um, yeah, I like that idea. I think we should maybe start to do that and maybe you and I could just like, we'll buy some of the on sale shoes and test them out if we've not done that. Because you are right. There are. Yeah. People who are on a budget not looking to spend $170 or get the latest and greatest. You know, they're the people who don't mind buying the later, earlier models, I guess. Yeah, yeah. I think, um, one other thing that I think will be fun when we get into some further reviews, as I just had Dustin on the podcast recently and yeah, he has a great episode. Yeah, great. You listen to awesome. So you probably heard you mentioned like his lab in town here where he's basically just testing shoe efficiency there. So it'll be fun to actually get some actual data on some of these shoes versus just our speculation because like, we can go out and run these and we can sort of gauge to a degree like, okay, I felt like I normally do for this run. And my heart rate was said this, my effort was this and my pace was that. But to really get an actual efficiency test done on some of them, to narrow it down to the shoe or a handful of shoes for certain purposes, and at different paces too, which I think will be fun too, because it could be that one shoe is better if I'm trying to run like what you're doing, like marathon pace versus what I'll be running for 100 miles or something like that. So being able to kind of go in and really narrow that down and then get some more data on these shoes so that we can share with listeners too. So they're wondering, because I do wonder about a shoe like the neo zen like it feels. That shoe feels like it has a good response compared to what I've worn historically. Um, so my thought is like, okay, I, I probably have an efficiency benefit in this shoe over what I wore the last few years. Uh, but I don't know for sure because I don't have the test done. Uh, and, and I'm just interested in kind of seeing kind of where some of these different shoes, whether they're plated or non plated and the different types of foams, how that actually ends up playing out on, on ourselves individually to and and figure that out so well and to some degree like foam depending on how often we go in how much how how durable. These foams last from a performance. Because that was another thing that Dustin mentioned that I thought was really interesting. He's a big fan of zoom. Like that's just what tests really well for him. So he's done tests on a pair of like I think it was the Nike Alpha fly, if I'm not mistaken, where he tested it, like right out of the box and he tested it throughout and then up to 400 miles, he was still getting the same efficiency. So the foam wasn't breaking down the way I think we thought originally. At least the modern versions of it aren't. So that's just worth knowing, I think, because I think people will. They'll get to a certain mileage mark on these super shoes and think, okay, I can't race in this anymore. I got to get a new one. I have to phase this into a trainer. If his dad is accurate, then maybe you don't. Maybe you can take your Alpha flight 400 miles. Right? Put eight marathons on it. Yeah, I'd love to get that data too, because it's something similar I experience with, you know, I have a pair of the alpha fly too. And I kind of retired them around 150 miles from racing. So that's, you know, like, I don't know, 4 or 5 marathons and a couple halves in there. I ran in them, but I've still been using them for training, and I still feel that I'm getting that response even though they look, you know, if you just looked at them from the side, it's, you know, squeezed down and there's some wear and tear on them. But I'd be curious too. Test issue. Like he said right out of the box. He was getting like the 4% I think benefit with the alpha fly. And then yes, he raised a couple, you know, marathons in it, see if it's still performing. And yeah, because like you said, if you have the data then, you know, no need to buy one every 150 to 200 miles. You can double the life of it, save yourself a little bit of money. Well, and Dustin, I could just picture him like he's got a race in two days. Well, I'm like this old pair of shoes. I'll test it real quick to see if it's actually efficient. I know, I wish I had a laboratory in my basement where I could just go down every day and test. Yeah, it's funny stuff. One other thing I'll add about the neo zen and we can move on. Unless you have other stuff you want to talk about. It is since that upper, it's not a very supportive shoe. Like it's going to let your foot do what it wants to do, which has its pros and cons. I think you want to know that. I think that's good for getting some articulation and your foot muscles, your lower leg and things like that. But I did notice after wearing that a few times, like I was a little more sore, kind of in the lower, like in the feet and the ankles. So it probably took maybe about two weeks for that just to disappear altogether. And I took that as a sign of just like, okay, well, I'm probably getting a little more motion in that area in that shoe than I would in a more supportive, structured shoe. Uh, which, you know, I think is good, but you do want to be mindful of that whenever you're adding an extra stimulus, uh, you don't want to overdo that and then get an injury or something like that and have something good turn into something bad. But, um, I think that's going to be the reality of a shoe that's as kind of nimble as that one and soft as that one where, uh, the soft foam and the stretchy upper is all going to kind of just let your foot get a little bit more play if you want it to. Yeah, for sure, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. But like you said, you work your way into it, you know, don't take them out and go on a long, long run. The first day right there. Build up that strength a little bit. It doesn't take too much time. But yeah I noticed kind of the same thing. A little more freedom in your feet. Yeah. With that one. Cool. Well we might as well stick to Mizuno here and cover, cover this. So this is probably the most interesting shoe I've ever worn, and certainly the most interesting shoe probably on the list today, which is the Mizuno Wave Rebellion three. Um. This shoe. It was funny. I was looking at this just the specs on it and on their website they have it listed as, uh, like a 40 millimeter to, I want to say like 34. I think it's a no. 36. They're advertised as a four millimeter offset. You look at that shoe and you're like, this thing's got to be like a 40 millimeter offset. And it's I kept digging and I'm like, okay, well, now this says it's got 61mm. And then my head's like, well, how is it legal? And then, you know, it says it's legal, but 61 is nowhere near legal. It's 50% above legal. And for World Athletics performance stuff. So apparently with the regulations, I think it's if I remember right, 12% is the measurement point from the, from the very back of the shoe. So if you want to get creative like Mizuno did, you just cut the back of the heel off until you hit that percentage margin of the shoe and then you just add a bunch of extra cushion there. So as far as world athletics is concerned, it's like depending on who measures it between 39 and 40mm. But if you measure that thickest part of the shoe, it's up to 61mm. And that just creates an interesting dynamic. You put that shoe on. And the way I describe it is when someone's when you're walking, you kind of have like a heel to forefoot movement. When you run, most people start moving up to the midfoot and forefoot, usually as you go faster closer to your forefoot. When you walk in that shoe, it's kind of like on stilts, almost. Yeah. I mean, I can imagine I've never worn high heels personally, but I can imagine if women are wearing high heels, it's kind of like a similar experience. Yeah. Like you're not going heel to toe. You're just. Forefoot, which when you're walking, feels very awkward. When you're running, it doesn't feel as bad. But, um, yeah, just trying to walk around, like to the start line of that shoe. You're like, oh my God, this is unnatural. It's a little unnerving to the degree where, like, if I just put it on my foot and didn't know what they were trying to do with it, I'm not sure I would get it because of that. Uh, but it's the type of shoe where the faster you go in it, the better it performs. And I think when I wore it the first time, I sort of, I just put it on for a run. I wasn't going to do a workout, and I just wanted to see how it felt. And I was like, I felt a little awkward at it, kind of getting into like most of my runs, I start out kind of between seven and a half and eight or something like that, and I like to work down depending on what type of run I'm doing, start dropping under seven. A certain point I noticed as I was getting down into kind of the mid sixes, that's kind of around where it started feeling like it was working with me versus maybe working against me a little bit. And then when I took it to the track and did some actual speed work in it, I was pretty surprised at how well it performed compared to just what I had worn historically. It definitely has that kind of super shoe efficiency boost that you're going to be looking for in a shoe like that. But, um, whether or not it's something you can. Take for a really long race. Like, I don't think you'll see me running 100 miles in it. So there is that side of it. But yeah, I'm curious what your thoughts were. Yeah, I remember the first time I put it on, I think I sent you a text about it because it was, you know, the first 10 to 15 minutes, I mean, just right. I didn't, you know, it was right out of the box. I put it on and I wanted to do like a two note workout in it because I was racing the Houston Half Marathon, I think in a week or so. And I was like, oh, well, if these end up working out, like I might actually like to try to race in these. Um, so I did, I think like an easy warm up. And then I did three miles at half marathon pace and then a cooldown and that warm up, you know, it was like 15, 20 minutes. And I was like, oh, this is weird. You know, it was like seven, 7.5 minute pace. After about 15 minutes, it started feeling a little bit more natural, even at that slower pace. But then again, when I switched over and started running like five, 25, 25 per mile, it felt really good. Um, and then, yeah, so it definitely takes a little while to get used to, but I it definitely has that, um, like you said, the super shoe efficiency a little bit less pop than, say, like I haven't run in all the super shoes, but like the alpha fly when I'm wearing that, you can like almost just like hear that plate rebounding when you're running very fast. These didn't have that kind of feeling, but it actually gave me the propulsion. So it was like it felt a little softer. It didn't feel as responsive as the alpha fly, but it certainly was getting a performance boost. So running at that pace felt like it would, you know, it was the effort was slightly lower than you know what it should be. Um, so I definitely felt that I was getting that performance boost, maybe even more so than, say like an alpha fly, just in terms of like, each step felt like a spring. Um, they're a little bit softer than I would have liked, though, in terms of I prefer something a little more, um, a little more supportive, a little more stiff, even in, like, a super shoe. And these were just, like, very, very, very soft, um, especially at those fast paces. So I did that workout in them. And then a couple of weeks later, I did another workout. I didn't end up racing in them, which I think was a smart choice. I yeah, doing 13 miles and trying to run fast. And those having not really given myself time to adjust, I think was kind of the right call. I may have regretted it a little bit, but um, a few weeks after that I did another thousand meter repeat kind of workout. So I was running, you know, that like five minute to 505 per mile pace. It felt really good during that one two. So they're certainly, you know, they're doing what you look for. They're helping you, you know, run faster during workouts. The biggest thing for me, which almost would prevent me from saying these are kind of part of my racing or workout arsenal is just the instability. I mean, there, especially at the ankles, like just. Very unstable. I mean, when you're running straight, it tends to be fine. You said you did your track kind of long run workout in them, but when I was turning, I was doing a little loop in my neighborhood and just doing just turning even pretty wide turns and just getting a lot of instability, especially kind of my weak point is like my right, I'm a little bit less strong on that side. So just my ankle and even looking down, just caving in on every stride. And it didn't feel any soreness or pain afterwards. But um, it just did feel a little bit unstable. And I almost felt like it, it held me back a little bit from pushing harder because I didn't want to, like, feel like my ankles were just gonna kind of crumple in. Um, but other than that, I mean, a great shoe was very comfortable. Um, the lacing again, I think it was, you know, it doesn't have the same kind of upper as the niacin does, but, um, very comfortable. I didn't get any, like, blisters or, uh, you know, lose any toenails while I was running it, but so overall, a great shoe. But the instability is kind of the part that gets me. But like you said, definitely one of the more interesting shoes that I've ever run in. Yeah, I mean, it's like the Ferrari of running shoes. Totally. It's like it's got a purpose and it's great at that purpose. And it doesn't really. It's like the opposite of the neo zen, where it does one thing and it does one thing really well, but that's about it. And it was funny because like you said, I actually got curious, really curious, and decided I'm going to take it on for a long time. And I did a 20 miler in it. And. I was noticeably faster. I think I averaged like 617 per mile pace at an effort that would normally produce about a 6.5 minute mile. Um, heart rate data kind of confirms that my perceived effort confirmed that. And, um, I did do a little bit of a fast finish in that particular session, and it just felt like it was even coming. It was easier to glide into that type of. So I think if you're going to try to like negative split or road race or something like that, that you might be a really good option for you, but, you know, it is a narrow shoe. It is, uh, very like its stability and turn radius are going to be some a weakness for it. So like my big toes both got just butchered from that run. I lost both my big toenails after that one. So so I don't think it's going to be something I could probably use for like a 100 mile race. Um, maybe, you know, maybe a marathon if I really used it enough to get comfortable in it in the course was such that I was comfortable that it wasn't like a bunch of hairpin turns and things like that. Uh, one thing that does save it a little bit on turning, because one thing I noticed, because I did, I used it in some track workouts too, and kind of this one k loop that I got kind of near the house. And I did notice that as you start getting more comfortable in the shoe just from using it more, you get you feel a little more comfortable, like getting aggressive with the turning, even though it feels like a little less like comfortable to do it at first. And part of that, I think, is the the outsole on this one I think is also top notch. I think they nailed the outsole on it. From a just a grip and a durability standpoint. It kind of has like these little like almost like rubber knobs. And on the track surface it just kind of like grips it really nicely. So I felt like when I would really get up to speed, as long as I just trusted my ability to lean into it, I felt okay doing it that way. Um, I might have been working my ankles really hard, though. It's hard to know, like where the failure point would be if I just kept going to failure because I try not to do workouts to failure races I do. So that's the hard sell. Always is. Like if you're going to take a race to failure in your workouts aren't, there's going to be some guesswork as to what's going to fail and what shoe product to. Um, but yeah, I think, uh, that one is something great for maybe short endurance races, probably less turning. Um, I think it probably performs really well on wet surfaces with that outsole. Maybe not sharp turn on wet surfaces, but, uh, generally speaking, I think it's an interesting shoe. I'll be curious what they do. There's one thing I would, I wonder, because that shoe weighed. I think it was 7.7oz. And when you look at super shoe weights, like the top tier ones, they're usually dipping down into like the mid 60s ounces. And I think some of the upcoming ones are even getting under that now I want to say isn't the like, isn't the alpha fly going to be like under six ounces? I think so, I think they said it was their lightest ever. I just saw a post from Nike or somebody the other day, but yeah, it was maybe five mid five low five. Yeah. So like this one's at seven seven and that again full rubber outsole I love the rubber outsole on there. But I don't know why you put a full rubber outsole on that shoe because you're not going to hit anywhere other than like some of these up front spots. Right. So the first thing I would do is I would shave the rubber at least off that like heel portion that comes off the ground because you're never using that side. So, I mean, you could put something there that has a tacky surface to it, but you don't need to protect it the way you would with a rubber outsole and you could save some weight there, I think. And you could probably get really creative and carve out pieces of rubber on that shoe that you're just rarely going to ever hit because of the purpose that you're going to use it for, and maybe get it closer to some of the weight ranges that you're seeing in some of the other super shoes that are trying to compete with, uh. I wonder. I really wish you could take that shoe with that 61 millimeter bulb there and test to see. Okay, what am I? How am I efficient with this at, like, race pace and then have that same shoe but maybe 50mm. Because if you get the same efficiency there, you can save more weight by instead of having that 61 millimeter spot, 50. Now, uh, I mean, who knows, I don't know, maybe they're doing that stuff in their prototype testing and stuff like that, but, um, it's my thoughts, I guess, about it. Yeah. I almost wonder, like I found I'm not, uh, certainly not like a total heel striker, but maybe less of a forefoot striker, maybe more of a midfoot striker. I almost would feel a little bit more comfortable if I had a little bit more, maybe of that heel. I. Oh, really? I'll be willing to like, uh, like further back or more push back. Oh I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, a little more cushion. And even having the heel maybe a bit further back, I think I would feel probably a little bit more comfortable and stable. I think part of the instability for me especially comes from I'm in those I'm changing my biomechanics. If I'm in another super shoe or something, I'm not because it's allowing me to hit more towards maybe the back, which I tend to naturally do. Um, so yeah, I think that would be for me, I don't know. I mean, I'm obviously concerned about getting the light issue possible, but I'd sacrifice a little bit of weight for stability and a little more, um, confidence in my ability to, to push and be aggressive in those ones. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I think I texted you this when I first tried out, I was like I don't think my Achilles tendon even works and issues it like just kind of does that job for it. Yeah. It's taking over. It's like yeah an external Achilles tendon for sure. Yeah I think I would love to, I would love to eventually do a race in these. I think maybe if I do some more training in them and feel more confident and I will, I think for me it would be like the perfect half marathon shoe. I think for a marathon I want something that's a little more. It's a little more durable maybe. Um, but I mean, Boston's point to point, who knows, maybe I'll end up wearing them for that if I can get pretty comfortable. Like no hairpin turns that I know of in the Boston Marathon. So, uh, yeah. Yeah, it'd be interesting. I don't know, maybe maybe try them out for that. That'd be cool. Yeah, we'll test them out and find out, because who knows what if you end up being like a percentage and a half more efficient in those than the Alfa flies and. Then you're like, okay, I got a decision to make now. Yeah, I actually think I'll have to go back and look. But so I've been, um, I've been training using the stride pods, which give you some data, and I've been coordinating with the guys at stride. They've been analyzing some stuff for specific shoes. And I do think that the, um, the Wave rebellion, it gave me a little more leg spring stiffness, which is just one of the metrics that those pods are measuring. So, you know, you want more leg spring stiffness. It's kind of like you're getting more return. And I think, um, of the two runs that I've done in those, they had analyzed it and looked and it gave me a little bit more of that leg spring stiffness compared to, say, the alpha fly or some of the other shoes. So it's just an interesting data point, I don't, you know, have enough to make a conclusion yet. Nor do I know, like what, you know, oxygen uptake and stuff is. But yeah, we'll get that interesting figure for sure. Yeah, I would say like in closing for this one, in a perfect scenario, you warm up in a different shoe, do your workout in the issue, cool down in a different shoe. Uh, like spikes. Yeah. Exactly. True. Like you're not going to warm up in your spike. You're not going to cool down in them. You're just basically going to do the work that you need to do and, um, do your, you know, the tool and then you just yeah, take them out and put them back in the bag. Cool. Um, all right, let's, uh, let's chat about let's go a different direction. Do Mountain Coast. Um, this brand is interesting to me because it was sort of born in ultrarunning. And they have they, they've but they've really marketed hard like their stuff has been popping up all over the place. Uh, and they're doing their, I mean, maybe this is my bias of just being in the ultra world, because I'm just seeing it everywhere now in that side of the running universe. And they have three models the, the, the R one, which is the ratio, the S one, which is kind of like a trainer, a little bit more stability. And then the P one, which is kind of like a recovery walk or shoe type of thing. And the first time I put on the R one, I was wearing it on a Sunday. It was just super easy. It was like one of those days where it's like, I feel like I could go for an easy run and it won't be a problem. But I could also take a rest day. I wasn't going to get hold of quali out of the run, but I think Nicole and I were going to go watch something like the Austin Half Marathon or something like that. So I'm like, okay, I'll just go run down there with you and then run back. So I wore that shoe for that, and I had a little bit of soreness in the lower legs from the prior day's work, and the first thing I noticed was, okay, this shoe basically makes sure your foot and ankle do not get too much play when it's getting sore and tired. And when I was thinking about their purpose. Because this shoe is designed for them, they don't avoid this in their marketing. It's like this is an ultramarathon shoe, and we've got a lot of shoes in ultramarathons that cater to the trails. This is one that's going to cater to the roads. And I'm like, I can see why you would build a shoe like that to be something where you're looking at a lot of people's point of failure in these longer, sometimes multi-day races, and it's like your feet and your ankles. So like if you're doing, say, like a 4 to 8 hour race and your feet and ankles are the part that's really bothering you, and now you have a shoe that's going to kind of keep them from getting as much activity, then, you know, that might be a good option for you. The thing that surprised me the most about them, though, they felt really firm. I thought when I first, when I first saw them, they'd be maybe a little softer. And I assume they're trying to do that just to make sure that you don't kind of get the same experience that I do in the neo zen, where you do get a little bit more foot and ankle play. They're trying to maybe avoid that altogether and almost create like a cast down there and avoid any sort of, uh, need for stuff like that. But I think if someone, the, the, if someone's doing an altar in them and they found a weak spot in that shoe, it might be like that person prefers a softer shoe, and then that one is a little bit too firm for them. But it was. It was an interesting, interesting experience. I'd be curious what you thought about being just like a marathon training athlete versus an ultramarathon. Yeah. I thought, you know, I've worn them for kind of like an easier run, but I've been doing like a lot of, like kind of walking in them just to sort of break them in and in a way that was due to the fact that, like you said, they're a little bit stiffer. Yeah. Um, but I definitely did notice the kind of lower profile on them, which is neither like a good nor a bad thing. It keeps you, I think, like you said, kind of more, a little more grounded. So let's play there. Um, but yeah, overall, I mean, it was my first experience with the brand and admittedly I haven't done a ton of running in them. But like first impressions, they fit well on the foot, very comfortable. The foam or, you know, the foams in them is a little bit different, a little bit stiffer than some of the other shoes that I've run in. But overall I was pleased with it. And I think, um, I'm excited to do it. I'll probably do some easier runs. I typically do Sundays like a recovery run. So I may start popping those on there so I can get a little bit more, um, accurate idea of of how this perform, but, uh, yeah, definitely, definitely something new that they were kind of reminiscent, I think, of just some of your older quote unquote classic running shoes. Maybe they're, you know, not super, super techy or anything like that, but they're, um, they're going to hold up and uh. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. And for people interested, they're midsole is like a hybrid I think, I think if I remember I was like 45%, but they had it with um a nitrogen infused was kind of the, the super critical element to that one. So like. I'm curious about that because I haven't done anything super fast in them yet, but I am wondering if, like if I put more force into that, if I'll see like a little bit more pop out of that shoe. So that's another one. I'm interested just to test to see what the efficiency comes out to on it. I don't suspect it's going to be something where it's like, oh wow, the efficiency in this is such that I'm aware for a marathon or even maybe a 100 K or 100 mile for that matter, but maybe something that I would wear for something longer, like a 24 hour or beyond or something like that. If I were going to try to get something a little more specific to ultra, they I do like on this one, they are thinking about some certain things that I think are problematic for long duration activities, like their toe box is great on that shoe. Um, for a brand that's not like trying to necessarily highlight that. It's got a pretty good setup there. And it's even on their race, the R1, which is the race model, they feel like there's a dual lacing system there where it's basically a top half lace and a bottom half lace. So if you get swelling or something like that mid-race and want to kind of change the environment inside your shoe without changing your shoe, you can do it with that one. Um. The one thing I thought was interesting is just based on the price point between the different models, I think the race one was like $10 more than the S1. And the big difference between the S1 and the R1 is the S1 is a little more narrow, and they market that more as their training shoe. Um, I'm not sure I would even use that shoe for training. I think I would just use the R1 for everything. Um, and then maybe even the P1 for real recovery. That one is a little softer. Uh, but, yeah, there's, like, a little less volume in that shoe. I think their thought is, is a little more space in our shoe for our racer, maybe not in our trainer. So they're kind of differentiating with that. Um, but yeah, I think like I would probably just this is personal to me. Other people probably would feel differently, but I think I would, I would wear the R1 for training and uh, then racing if I'm doing shorter ultras or road races and things like that, I would use a different shoe altogether. Um, I am curious about the durability side of things with it too. So maybe this is a shoe that I can try to stack a bunch of miles on, like the Neos and, and see what happens over three or 4 or 500 miles, how it holds up, how it kind of starts to behave when you get further into it and things like that. Um, but it will also be interesting to see what they do in the future, too, because this is their first round of shoes. So, you know, brands that are new usually have a lot to learn. So there's always going to be elements that I'm sure they're getting feedback on from their core customers and athletes that are saying like, hey, what about this? What about that that they're probably thinking about in the background as they decide what to do with the next round of shoes? Yeah. And I think, like you mentioned before, I think if they can kind of create their own little niche where, oh, these are, you know, we're going to bring you kind of all of the bells and whistles of some of the super shoes designed for road racing and marathons, but like maybe do some things special for ultra marathoners, like with the lacing configuration, like you were saying, or kind of make these like, oh, this is an ultra marathon or shoe. That's not a trail running shoe. I think that they could kind of make their own niche in the market, which would be nice for a smaller brand like that. Mhm. The other thing about the shoe too is their offset was like ten millimeters. So it's a pretty aggressive offset. Uh for the S1 and P1. The R1I think was eight if I remember right. So but still relatively high. Uh, so with the special with the R1 that has a little bit more of a roomy toe box for folks that are like, hey, I like ultra, but I want a lift on the back of the shoe. Um, because I'll talk to people from time to time. Like, I love the shaved toe box of ultra, but I don't like zero drop. That might be your shoe because it's going to. From a performance standpoint, it's going to stack up to the ultra lineup. And you're going to have room up front. And then you're going to also have 10 or 8, 8 or 10mm depending on the model. So um, that's an option too, which I also would wonder if like because you do have a, you could have a scenario where let's say you have like a little bit of a cranky Achilles and you're looking at it through, hey, I want to be able to be exposed to a zero drop balanced shoe, but in the short term, I want my Achilles to stop screaming at me. You could switch into a shoe like that and then have something to kind of maybe help protect that a little bit along the way, as you're kind of going from from that to back to 100% health. Yeah. Would these be something that you would wear if you were going on like a trail run the mount to coast? Do you think those would perform pretty well on the trails as well? It would maybe depend on the type of trail for a lot of trails. Yes. They are releasing a trail shoe coming up very soon. They actually have some prototypes. Um, I was actually supposed to get one, but I ended up under the weather when they were in town, so I didn't want to go and expose them to much of it, but they were going to give me a prototype. Uh, so I would say like. I think that she would feel really stable on trails, which could be very nice. If you're someone who maybe feels a little more clunky on trails or like a little tepid on technical terrain and things like that. A shoe like this might kind of help you just kind of like, blast through that a little bit more efficiently without feeling like you're going to tip over or trip and fall. Um, you put an outsole on there that's a little more trail specific, and then it's even another step towards it. But, uh, yeah, for a lot of trails, I think you could just take the road shoes out there on it and be fine. Yeah, for sure. I think unless the thing with, uh, it seems like it might be a little precarious if it were, like, wet trail, maybe because they're not going to give you that as much grip they do seem like they didn't have maybe the Grippier outsole compared to some of the other stuff we've been testing, or some of the other trail specific shoes. Yeah. Mhm. Yeah for sure. So yeah. Interesting brand. I'll be curious what they do in the future. Uh I'm going to play around with their R1 a little bit more. So maybe in a future episode if I put more miles on it and try for more use cases and then get some efficiency data on it, we can share some more about that one down the road. Uh, yeah. So we did Mizuno Mount to coast, uh, Puma, maybe Puma. Yeah, that's right, the Puma. Yeah. So we did one Puma shoe for this review. Uh, the Deviate Nitro Elite or the Deviate Nitro Elite three. It's these names that are getting so long, and they all are like, elite pro or. Well, the rebellion or rebel and the ad, I think because Puma has like a deviate three but then they have a deviate nitro elite. Elite. Yeah. Yeah. So you gotta keep them straight. I saw a post the other day. I'm like, okay, which one do I have? Because they're all, yeah, deviating something. But yeah, we have the deviate Nitro Elite three, which I believe is like road racing. Yeah. As opposed to like a trainer. Yep. Yeah. And they kind of have two racing shoes right now that sort of stand out a little bit. It's this that and the faster and the um we'll, we'll be doing the fast star in the future that she's actually going to be updating soon. So hopefully it'll be an update. Uh, this shoe I thought was interesting because they sort of are maybe a little bit of a disruptor shoe, or at least it attempted to be because they use like an ATP midsole foam, which is, I think, first to market. I don't think any other brands use that particular blend in a shoe. And I mean, you get all sorts of claims around these different things about how, oh, this is going to be the most efficient shoe, or we tested in a lab and did this. And then the other thing and it's like eventually it's just like, okay, well let's get some third party testing and figure out what's going on or if there's specific foot strikes and stuff like that. And, um, I actually talked to some of the people on the development team about it, and, you know, they're excited about it. And, uh, I think there's like this thought process within the shoe design world right now that there's a lot of opportunity outside of, uh, Pebble versus like a few years ago, where I think everyone's assumption was these brands are going to all try to get to people or find a way to get that type of material into their shoe in a way that's. Fast and efficient and cost not. I guess they're the best. Those shoes are going to be pretty expensive. But the thing about Puma was their prior version of this shoe was some kind of like people blend or is like a nitrogen infused people like hybrid type setup. So they actually went away from that. So like whatever they saw in their labs or their testing suggested that this ATP was maybe something that they wanted that would be better in that I'm not sure if that was just like the interaction with the plate they have in there, because that plate is pretty stiff that they have inside that shoe. Um, this is the only other one where from a performance standpoint, I liked this one quite a bit. I did some speed workouts in it, and I did a long run in it, and kind of like the Mizuno Wave Rebellion, I was noticeably more efficient than I had been in any other shoe that I've worn. Um, this one was a little more versatile. It's definitely like a little bit of a narrower or lower volume shoe. But I appreciated where they flared it out in the front, where it's a little bit of a compromise compared to like a foot shaped toe box in terms of how much space you feel like you have up there, but it didn't feel like it was to the degree where like, oh, I couldn't take this out for 100 mile run and, uh, race in it if I wanted, if I just if I went into the lab and found this is the most efficient shoe that they have for my foot strike and mechanics at the pace I'm targeting, I would feel comfortable enough wearing it for 100 miles to the degree where whatever damage I would do and it would be solvable afterwards, and it wouldn't be something I'd be worried about, like ruining my race or anything like that. So, um. I'm excited to kind of see where they go with it because it's a little more stable, like a super shoe from my experience. And I think that might be why, like it's gotten a lot of attention with like the High Rock's folks, like the people doing those High Rock's competitions where they're doing essentially eight one kilometer intervals amongst a bunch of, like, agility type stuff. Uh, uh, they're wearing that shoe a lot. And I don't know, maybe that's because they sponsor it or I don't know what that might be. A chicken or egg thing, I don't know, like, did a bunch of people start wearing it for high rocks? And then Puma is like, hey, there's an opportunity here. And then started sponsoring. It was Puma sponsored High Rocks. Now all the athletes are using it because of that. Um, but I think like when I first saw that, I was like, huh. That's interesting because I would think that sort of type of a competition would require a little bit more support and structure from your footwear. You might not be able to get away with, like some, at least some of the traditional super shoes. Um, but this one felt like I had a little bit more control on my foot with it. Plus, uh, the little bit of propulsion from that. But another one, I'm really curious about what the actual efficiency data comes out to when we go into the lab with it. Yeah, this one actually ended up being one of the one of my favorite, like, kind of super shoes that I've worn in a while. I also actually have the fastest that I've been training in for probably a couple of months doing workouts in because they sent me a pair a while back. Um, they're very similar. The faster is a little bit softer, and I would say like a little bit more aggressive. It is like this. It's a funky looking shoe. It has this exposed plate basically on it. Um, but I love the fast Da. And this one performs similarly in terms of. A very, very kind of stiff but responsive, which I liked a lot. I've done several workouts in it. I even do a treadmill workout. It felt very good during that. I took it outside and did kind of a medium long, uh, workout. Done a few tempo runs in. It performs very well. Um, a lot of stability and like, unlike the, uh, wave rebellion. Again, I think at any pace it's pretty comfortable as well. So if you're running seven minutes, 7.5 minutes, eight minutes, and then when you get down to this faster pace, it kind of accommodates whatever pace you're going on. So I would even do something like a long run if it didn't contain a speed component. So this could I mean theoretically if you were looking for I think a super train or a super shoe that you wanted to just train in from day to day, I think you could do that in this shoe versus like, you're not going to do all your runs in a way for rebellion, but for the deviate Nitro Elite, you could totally do that and just be, oh, if you want to train in a carbon plated shoe, this is one that I would totally recommend for doing that. Um, because you could just take it on a normal run. But yeah, I was very, very pleased with it. A bit more narrow than I may. What, like, um, like you said, lower, lower volume kind of shoe. I would maybe prefer a little bit wider just throughout the entire shoe, but, um, I, you know, I don't mind mine didn't didn't have any issues with it, but definitely a little bit narrower than some of the other stuff. Do you? Is your foot? Do you know from a volume standpoint, if yours tends to be narrow, moderate or wider, I would say probably moderate, maybe moderate to wide. It certainly is. I certainly don't have a narrow foot. Um, so yeah, I would say it's kind of moderate. I don't order wide shoes. I just ordered normal, but I don't have a slim foot by any means. Yeah, sure. Yeah. You're probably right in the middle then. I'm always curious about that too, because that sometimes just dictates how much someone loves or hates a specific shoe. Because my foot is kind of like mine is probably between narrow and moderate from a volume standpoint, like there's parts of my foot that would be narrow on other parts that wouldn't. So I sort of have a hybrid foot, I guess, uh, which makes it interesting sometimes with different shoes, because I can. I think what I ended up liking about this model was it does taper backward a bit in the heel, so I can really lock that heel down. And that's where my foot is a little more narrow. But then as I move up on my foot, kind of in the mid foot area, I get this nice little flare out and that's right where that shoe flares out. But then I don't have like this, this toe splay that goes aggressive beyond that first moderate midfoot flare out that I have. So. I appreciate foot shaped toe boxes, but I can get away with a little less than what someone with a true moderate or true wide foot or high volume foot would be able to. Um, so I think like some, some this shoe could be one of those where it's kind of like, uh, if it fits well, it fits really well, and if it doesn't, you're going to notice a little bit of stuff in there that, uh, that, that you would like to have, have changed. But I think at the end of the day, like some of this stuff is just like, how long can you tolerate a shoe before it becomes uncomfortable? And that's maybe where you draw the line in terms of what you're gonna do with it, like in a race and things like that. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, yeah, that was actually something I thought about too, that I found interesting that Dustin was saying because, you know, a lot of brands will market towards like, oh yeah, this shoe is our five K, ten K, this one is our marathon. And Dustin was assuming that or he said he thought whichever one you're the most efficient with it is going to be fine as long as you can tolerate it. So there may be I mean I guess the waiver bell will be a perfect example of this. It would be like, let's say that's the most efficient shoe I have on it. I'm still probably not going to wear it for 100 miler. Totally. Because there's a point at which I can't tolerate it any longer. So even if there was one that was a percentage less efficient that I could tolerate for 100 miles, I'd wear that one instead. But he said like, hey, like I think we were talking specifically about the alpha fly and the Vaporfly. And he was like, yeah, I mean, if you're more efficient in the alpha fly than the Vaporfly, then where they'll fly for everything as long as you can tolerate it up to, or if it's the other way around, maybe he's the better competitor, because I think the alpha fly is more pinned to the marathon. So if someone was in the vaporfly and they're like, oh, I'm just better in the vaporfly. I mean, efficiency wise, they don't need to switch to the alpha fly unless for some reason, by going up to the marathon, the vaporfly no longer feels good on their feet. Yeah, no, that totally makes sense, I think. And with the Nitro, I think that was one where I could feel comfortable in that probably at any distance. I did see something the other day where they were basically putting in order, like what they were tailored towards. They put the faster, faster, like up at the, you know, half marathon to marathon distance. The nitro was like A5K, ten K half marathon and then I don't know what. They're much shorter. She was, I actually thought it was the opposite. And then I started looking at them. I'm like, oh it makes sense. The faster has a little bit more kind of cushion in that heel or whatever. But um, yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense too. Yeah. You run in what is most efficient, but if it's not comfortable. And that's why I think for the Wave Rebellion, I said I'd probably take that up to a half marathon maybe. Max, I don't think I could tolerate it much more at this point. Um, so yeah, it's I think when people are thinking about, you know, whether it's from our recommendations about what types of races to use these in, you know, do some training runs at various distances and, uh, to see what. Yeah, you're you might be more efficient in this one, but, um, if you're not, if you're going to get blisters or be uncomfortable in it or too unstable, then that efficiency might be counterproductive at some threshold that you need to identify. Um, I'm trying to remember I've got them all listed here. What the opposite of that shoe was I think it's, it's a 40 millimeter heel, 32 forefoot. So like, you're when we're looking at the reason I, I find this stuff worth mentioning just because some people care about the offset. I think more importantly when we're getting into the performance realm is. Typically more cushion is going to suggest better performance. So like if you want some kind of basics like just descriptors to kind of head you in the right direction without testing. I find a lot of times looking for the foams that are up to that regulation standard because they've, they're, they're putting the premium foams on as much as they can. So they're sort of dialing in within that framework that World Athletics like set out for them. So this one kind of falls into that to where, you know, you could tell they were thinking about that. They were like, okay, we're going to try to get as much of this foam in as we can. And, you know, 40 and 32 is a pretty kind of industry standard type of setup, I think for something like that. Yeah, yeah. They fit a lot of foam in there. But it doesn't feel, you know, I think there's a huge difference between, you know, you have like whatever the stack height is and then the offset which can cause you, you know, to feel a different way. So it's like if with, say even the deviate nitro, it's, you know, it's got a lot of foam, but I don't feel like it in some of these shoes. You know, if the heel to toe is super aggressive or something, I feel my heel hitting first, almost like when I. Yeah I have a I should it would be fun to bring them in maybe next time. But I have a pair of the alpha fly twos and those have, you know, a very aggressive like big big old heel built up on those. And you can tell where I sort of hit on my left. I mean, there's like a chunk of the left heel that's just totally off of that shoe. I'm like, I need to fix my mechanics in these a little bit because the right one doesn't look like that, but they're causing me to, you know, like my heel to hit almost first and drag a little bit. Yeah. Um, whereas I didn't feel like that. I don't feel like that in the, um, Mizuno Neo Zen didn't really feel like that in the Nitro. It's kind of like a clean, um, clean stride, I guess. Yeah, that's what I would say. That's actually an interesting topic too, because one thing I've realized now that I'm wearing so much more variety and then more variety outside of balance zero Drop Cushion two is some shoes. They just work with your gait cycle really well where it just feels like butter smooth. And the two that really stood out for me in that side of things were the neo Zen and the, uh, Puma deviate, Nitro Elite three. Those ones felt like it was just like. Spinning my legs exactly the way they wanted to. Felt smooth. Kind of like. Like if you're riding a bike that needs a little tune up, then you get it tuned up and oil and all of a sudden it's like, oh, now these pedal strokes are coming so much easier, and it's probably really minor, but you just you're so used to that because it's such a repetitive motion that you do all the time. You just really notice those really small little variances there. Um, but yeah, those two really felt like they worked really well with my gait cycle. There was just kind of a smooth turnover. Yeah, I would agree. I found something similar. Yeah. Mhm. Awesome. So we've done Mizuno Mountain Coast Puma and chatted a bit about other stuff. Um, the other one I have on the list is kind of in the opposite end of the world of footwear, which is, uh, the Xero, um, HSF II, um, minimalist shoe. And I know you played around with this a little bit with some gym work and walking around. Uh, I did some running in this shoe and then walking around a lot in some gym work as well. This is one where I'm going to do a little more running before our next one, just to get a little more feel for it. Coming into this year, I had a little bit of a sore left Achilles tendon. So I've been a little more modest about putting on a shoe like that for any sort of full capacity training. Um, but my, my philosophy with, uh, with all that stuff is basically like, I want to be at a point where I can tolerate a shoe like that for at least some runs. I don't need to be able to do everything in that. Um, I mean, in the past, I've done 100 milers in like a 3.9oz pair of shoes. So, like, I know that I can build up the strength to do that if I want to. But the performance world is so much different now with the foams that we have today versus back then when I did that, that even if I did train down to that, it wouldn't give me a performance benefit the way it would have in the past, potentially without the super shoe foams. But I do think there's some value in just this foot strength in general, and being able to tolerate a shoe like that is something I want to try to maintain. So I'm going to add more running miles to this shoe. Um. What I liked about this one, though, for those that listen to this and they're just they're kind of in the minimalist world and they're just deciding what they want to wear is this shoe. I felt like from the update from what they did from the prior version, it's just a little more running focused, they added. So some of like the real minimalist purists, the ones that are just like, I want just the thinnest slab of rubber in life, just so I'm not actually physically touching the ground just so my sock isn't actually making contact with ground or barefoot. If they're going in there with no socks, they add a super thin level of midsole to the shoe, which I kind of like because it still has a really, really good ground contact feel. If someone's going to be in like maybe one of the more real low profile like vivo barefoot, they might notice that this is a little more show than that between the midsole, and it has got a pretty good rubber outsole on here with almost like a little lugs on there. They're not like aggressive lugs, like a trail shoe, but there's more than just a flat rubber outsole on there. Um. So I think it's going to be. It really reminds me of some of Ultra's early models. When they first came out, they used to name their shoes differently on the men's and women's side. So they had this pair of shoes. That was one of the very first models called Adam and Eve. And this shoe reminds me of that, actually. It was like pretty much in the minimalist world. Natural foot shape, toe box, um, real good ground feel, but not quite as minimal as you can get. So if I were like a minimalist purist, I would say this is probably like the most structured shoe that I would wear within that framework. Uh, which for me and I think most people running that aren't in that world, maybe look at that as like, this is a good shoe to to, to get if I want to start training that if I want to start like maybe adding a few like low profile firm shoe runs per week or something like that. Uh, and also have a good walk around shoe or gym shoe that they can kind of use in conjunction with that. This shoe is probably a good one for that. Uh, the other thing I really liked about it is their lace system goes through these little, uh, almost like these little, like, harnesses on the side, on the outside and the inside of the shoe. So when you pull the laces tighter, it kind of pulls those up. And they're almost just like these little fingers that grip the outside in the inside of your foot. So if you're going to do something like plyometrics or something really more like agility back and forth type stuff, it adds a decent amount of support for that. So you don't feel like you're rolling over the outsole onto the upper material. And I kind of like that, that ability to kind of loosen that if you don't want it, but then tighten it if you do. So like if I'm just walking around, I don't want that. I just want it to feel nice and just basically like I'm walking barefoot if I can. But then if I'm in the gym and I'm doing plyometrics or something like that, and I want that little bit of extra support feel to it, I can just tighten the laces a little bit and kind of get that play out of it. Yeah, for sure. I think I'll, uh, maybe before our next, uh, recording, I'll try to do a few runs in them because like you kind of mentioned, I think, you know, when you say you want to work up to doing runs in them, is that kind of an indicator for you of maybe you're having the extra foot strength and the stability around your ankle? Um, just kind of like if I'm able to do X amount of miles in these, then I know I'm kind of at this point where my feet are possibly a little bit stronger than if I weren't able to do that. Yeah, yeah. I think it's an indicator to some degree of like foot strength and, and even just when you think of just the dynamic of the Achilles tendon since these shoes. Are on the ground basically and completely zero drop. You get the full extension of your Achilles tendon. So I'll say something maybe a little controversial. Or it's like when people complain about zero drop. I think where they're I think especially when it's like a I guess if I take it like holistically, I would say like, I think you should be able to run in a pair of shoes like this if everything is really dialed in and if you can't, I don't think that's the shoes fault. I think that just means, hey, there's something that maybe you could improve a little bit, whether that be full range of motion from your Achilles tendon, or just the ability to tolerate the firmness of your foot, having to take on that level of, uh, lack of support or lack of cushion, I guess I should say. And if someone wants to do like a test to kind of see, like how it feels differently between like the way your foot muscles work in a shoe like this or in barefoot versus like a shoe is like go out on like a track or a controlled surface where you kind of know what's coming up ahead or, you know, like step on something sharp and just kind of like. Go on the straightaway and accelerate and then slow down gradually. When you slow down barefoot, even if you have a pair of, like, natural shoes on. So I would do this. I would go to the track I put on the Escalante Racers, which isn't anywhere near a minimalist shoe, but it's very much a natural shoe, a little bit lower profile compared to the rest of Ultras lineup. And I would do that in that shoe, and then I would do it completely barefoot. And even without that Escalante racer versus barefoot, I could just really feel my foot muscle, lower legs just activate more aggressively. So I mean, to what degree? The argument here is, like, we have these tools that make you not need to do that. So who cares, right? Right. You're never going to need to do that. Then why train yourself to do that? But yeah, I don't know if that's a I'm not sure that's a great argument. It feels like the way I look at it is like I want my body to be able to tolerate harsh conditions so that if it's exposed to something it wasn't supposed to be exposed to, I don't get hurt from it. And there's going to be a balance there because, I mean, we've talked about this in the past, too. If I do everything in that shoe, then it's going to be harder running in certain areas of my body. And if I'm only in that, I probably just won't run as many miles, whereas I put on some of these premium foams. Now, maybe I can run extra 1520 miles a week. And what does that do to my fitness versus just having really strong lower legs compared to what I would have otherwise? And I think this is where like the balance can be found there where like, all right, if I'm doing my strength work, if I'm wearing something like the Xero shoe, uh, for a few runs here and there and just making sure that that's something I can, can, uh, make strong enough, then I'm probably far enough that I'm not going to have any, like, huge weaknesses to the degree where they get exposed on race day. But it's also not going to take off the performance element of these super shoes off the table, or the ability to maybe get a few extra miles in a week because of the super shoe foam technology and things like that. Yeah, it makes you almost feel a little bit less guilty about wearing super shoes for everyone. I'm like, I'm gonna wear super shoes for every run, but then make sure to do some barefoot running so that I can like, uh, balance the scales a little bit. It's like eating your broccoli after eating a bunch of, like, Oreos. And, yeah, I'll have a salad. It's all good. Yeah, yeah, a little, a little bit in that way, but no, I think I think, you know, there's the big debate about, um, you know, should you do a lot of your training or all of your training and super shoes? I certainly don't think you should do all of it in super shoes, but, um, I've changed my mind a lot recently. You know, I used to only just use them once a week just for workouts, but now I'm like, well, okay, like you just said, if it lets me run, which I believe it is right now, you know, an extra 15 to 20 miles a week, I think the strength of gaining from that and the fitness I'm gaining from that is kind of offsetting the, I don't know, the extra boost that the super shoes are giving me that's not requiring me to to work as hard. But again, I think that everybody should kind of work if I have 1 or 2 shoes that aren't, you know, nothing there, no plate in them, no anything like the Asics and some of the other shoes where I'm going to run in these a couple times per week. And it does feel different. So you're like, oh, I need to kind of keep my body like running in these so I can at least feel, you know, feel the ground and work these muscles that don't don't get necessarily stressed as much in the, in the super shoes. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah yeah. It's interesting , I'm excited. You know vivo is going to send us some shoes too. So we'll probably have a lower version of that if you want to go even more aggressive. Uh I think it's going to be fun to just cover a wide range of different stuff and just see what that world is doing out there and, and build, build some shoe quivers that kind of have a wide variety of stuff in it and figure out what works for what. Totally. Yeah. I think with the Xeros. Um, something I'm going to try to maybe integrate now is what I think. When I was in high school, in college, I used to do a lot of things like once or twice a week. I'd basically do some barefoot running. We'd go on the turf and we do 1 or 2 miles after our main run, or maybe just do some barefoot strides. I think that's something I'd like to bring back and maybe, you know, do my main run, switch into my barefoot shoes, and then have a nice little kind of 92nd hill incline outside my house that I can do, like maybe hill sprints on or something. So put them on for that. I think, you know, just think of these things as like a tool. And then you mentioned I've been using them in the gym. Basically anytime I have a gym day, a strength workout day, I'm wearing those. And it feels great because I don't have to. I don't like going sockless or barefoot at the gym. I just feel it's a public gym. Like, I don't know, I feel weird doing that. Not that anybody cares, but I'm putting those on, you know, I think it's great. And it's, uh, I do all my gym stuff in those. If I'm taking the dog for a walk, I wear those. So just a way to, um, you know, get some grounding and, you know. Yeah, I guess you want to call it that, but, uh, feel the ground when you're walking and, uh, get my feet out of these kinds of more cushioned types of shoes that I'm wearing most of the time. Mhm. Well, and I was thinking about that earlier and the last year or two when uh, I had Courtney Conley come on and she was talking about like natural footwear and like toe splay and all that stuff. And my, I was curious cause I was like, well, I mean, I run a lot, but from a percentage of my actual day standpoint, it's pretty low. So my thought was like, what if I'm wearing a Xero shoe or just completely barefoot wearing toe spacers and things like that a lot outside of the running? Like, am I going to like to mitigate some of the downsides to like a more restrictive toe box, heel lift and premium cushion and stuff like that? And I think there is something there. I think like if you're I think where people really go wrong usually is. Um, well, first of all, I think people become like absolutists about any of this stuff and they think like, oh, I got to be minimalist and everything, or I got to be super shoes and everything. But what I think sometimes what happens is people will wear some of these more restrictive performance shoes, and then they'll slide right into something that's also restrictive or worse yet, maybe like a dress shoe that's like super narrow and high lift. And it's like an extreme version without any cushion. Right. Go to work all day. You know, you're in that shoe for ten hours. I think that's what the damage is really done. I agree, I would find it hard to believe that doing even if you're running, you know, the max. You can in a day, maybe 3 to 4 hours. You know, that's ten, 15% of your day is spent running. Okay. The other 85 to 90% of your day, you're out of them. You're using toe spacers. You're doing all these things to counteract that. It's similar to sitting. I mean, it's like, yeah, sitting all day isn't good. If you exercise in the morning, that's good. But I like to get up and walk around. You're just like you're altering these movement patterns to not get, you know, do one thing at once. So yeah, it applies to a lot of other things in life than just use. But I totally agree. I don't think even if you're wearing the most constrained and cushioned shoes, you can do things to sort of offset that in the rest of your life. So if you want to change super shoes all the time, I'm sure there are people out there who do it. Yeah. Pros who do it, probably. Especially the ones running. I mean, you're running, you know, upwards of 100 miles per week. But you know, guys doing 110, 120 whatever. Plus sometimes you need it. I think it's allowing athletes to train harder, longer, faster. I mean we I think we attribute a lot of the performance, you know, not to go on a tangent, but like the the performance improvements we see these days of, oh, it's the shoes that are helping during the race. Well, yeah, that's one aspect of it. But I think what people are not thinking of is, you know, the races, 9 or 1% of your training, like if these super shoes are allowing you to do everything else outside and train harder, then that's translating to the faster races. I think that's why we're seeing a lot of performance improvements. I mean, I've experienced it for myself. Like I can train more. I can do, you know, 75 to 80 miles a week now instead of 55 to 60. And, you know, it's going to improve your performance even if on race day, you know, you're not seeing leaps and bounds, maybe from one particular shoe. I'd love to ask someone like Sarah Hall or even Barkley, who are in their 40s and have gone through like we're young enough to remember Pre-super shoe and running when that was really. They definitely remember. So like. You know, they were competing at an international level in the Pre-super shoe era. And I wonder about what they attribute their longevity to. I'm obviously there's some uniqueness to them outside of the shoes, but I wonder, like if someone like Sarah Hall is performing or able to train at the same capacity as she used to with super shoes, then you know, even without, you know, taking on some of the age related decline that you might see by that point. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, just saving your legs, the wear and tear. Um, I can imagine her, I mean, I'm sure she does, like you said, other things. Other things. Right. But yeah. Yeah, it's amazing that we were able to. I just remember some of the shoes I used to do, like half marathon road races and in workouts I'm like, man, they were like thinnest little, like racing flats. I mean, they call them racing flats for a reason because they were literally flat. It was like less cushion than your daily trainer shoe. So now thinking back and it's like that was a totally different era. Yeah. Crazy right? It was. And this actually maybe is a good transition for us to go into kind of like some of the stuff we were going to talk about there, independent of what we both did, um, with the shoes that you'd been using, and then some that I had used historically is. One thing I find really interesting is when racing flats were sort of the reality for race day, where it was like, okay, I want to get in a smaller shoe as I can tolerate. Every brand kind of had a low profile option on their lineup, and then super shoes came out and sort of took the roll there, you see, like you don't see that at all anymore. And I mean, I even saw it with ultra footwear, which is a natural footwear brand. Their shoe cushions just got higher and higher and higher since the super shoe came out to the degree we're now like their lowest profile. I mean, they've got a gym shoe called the solstice XT that is a little lower profile, but it's just not a shoe. You could really justify doing a lot of running in. You can run in it, but it's heavy. It's got like lateral support. It's a gym shoe. Um, and then the next closest is the Escalante racer, which is basically a moderate cushioned shoe. So it's like even a brand like that, that kind of has their roots in low profile, uh, natural with like an element of minimalist to it. It has shifted with the market. So like then you look at it, it's like why would any of these other brands even bother with that sort of a shoe. So then I think, I wonder to some degree, like now we have these brands like Xero and Vivo that are doing pretty well in terms of their market share. You know, I wonder if they're just sort of like stealing, maybe some of the people that would have otherwise gone into that. They still want that aspect of training or footwear, because now they don't have to compete with any of these other brands because they're just not making that shoe anymore. Yeah, I think that makes sense. I think there's always going to be sort of that minimalist, like low profile market that people are going to want to use, even the people embracing. I think the super shoe technology, you know, like are going to maybe want to use some of these shoes for, for different purposes. So, um, but yeah, it is interesting. We've kind of shifted the baseline up in terms of like what, what a low profile or a shoe is. And we only like going up. I'm sure it will kind of level down a little bit. And turning 25 mm is now like a low profile. Yeah. It used to be very moderate. Yeah. It is interesting. I mean I think that just the perception even just changes because sometimes I'll just look at a shoe and I'm like, oh man, that's not very. I'm looking for something more cushioned in that. Whereas yeah, 5 to 10 years ago that would have been an insane level of cushion. Yeah. So everybody's just out competing themselves I think to see who can put the most in there. Yeah, absolutely. For better or for worse, I guess. Cool. Do you want to hit on your lineup into some of the stuff you like? I guess maybe we could just preface it as like, why do you why are you running in the shoes that you're running in? And some aspects about those models, for sure. I think there's probably 3 or 4 other shoes right now that I'm running in that are kind of outside of the ones we've been testing. One of the ones that I'm obsessed with currently is the Nike Zoom Fly six. So Nike has really kind of, I think within the last few months, said we're pairing down our lineup basically to have like we have the Pegasus, we have the zoom fly, we have like the Vampiro, and then we have the Alpha Flying Vaporfly. And that's kind of like it. I don't know if they're doing the Invincible run anymore, which was a shoe I actually liked, but I think they're kind of trying to phase those out. But I bought the Zoom Fly six. That's kind of the one that I'm obsessed with right now. I probably do most of my runs in that it's a super trainer, so it has a plate in there. It has like the zoom foam, but it's just super responsive, super durable. I did a long run workout in it. I've done like a pretty decent quality speed workout in it. So that's another one of those where like I can literally wear this for anything if I'm running, you know, 30 miles or, you know, ten miles as fast as I can or even shorter, um, you could race the five K and if you wanted to. Definitely. Really in love with that too. Um, so much so, as I almost bought, like, a second pair of them. So that's part of the lineup. Asics Novel Blast. That's one where I kind of keep in my arsenal as like a no frills like this is my trainer for an easy run. If I don't want to super shoes anything with a plate, I know they have a Nova Blast five now, but I haven't haven't tried that one out, so that one's part of the lineup. Um, Hoka is a brand I like a lot. I have the Hoka Max, but again, the first version of that, so not the second one. So I'm kind of still a model behind on all of those, but that's similar to the Zoom Fly six daily Trainer can kind of wear for anything medium long run, long run. Uh, shoe is typically what it, um, what it ends up being. And then what I do on almost all of my racing in and sort of the workouts is the alpha fly. That's kind of been my go to since I started wearing them. So, um, the Alpha Fly two and then I'm in the three right now. I'll probably buy another pair of threes when they go on sale, since they're releasing them for now. Um, but that's, that's kind of my go to shoe. It's just very comfortable. Um, and I found it. I haven't, you know, tried all of the different super shoes but that's part of the lineup. They're so kind of rotating between, you know, those four and then the three that we've been sent, it's kind of what has been part of my rotation. And now, you know, I have like 8 to 10 more pairs to try out when I go when I go home in the next few weeks for our, uh, reviews. Yeah, yeah. Uh Huh. Awesome. Yeah. Right now, if I had to, like, pick what I would use. For what purpose? Out of what we've been using, I think I would go. Puma, deviate, Nitro, Elite three for race and like work. I mean, I might phase in the Wave rebellion for some workouts just for fun from time to time, but I think I would probably start pivoting towards Puma Deviate just because if I'm going to race and I'm going to want to be doing some quality work in it too, just to match those things up a little bit and then Neos, then I think I would use it as like my, my trainer and then maybe even some kind of like workouts that are more in the moderate intensity, like some fast finish type sessions, maybe some like longer intervals or things like that. Um, I would probably use multiclass or one for some like recovery runs and then Xero for strength based footwork type things, which I mean, that's the only one really that we have that would fit that category. So um, we'll see. Like what some of these other low profile minimalist brands have for that too, in the future. Um, in terms of what I used to wear, like from a lineup standpoint, the shoe I was racing in prior was the ultra varnished carbon two. So that shoe was, uh, kind of an ultra second round of. Okay, we're entering the super shoe material type of, uh, world with it. And my experience with that shoe was a noticeable difference from the first version. The first version was a lot firmer. This next one felt soft, kind of like what you would expect from some of those premium foams. Sometimes where it really squishes down, has the plate in it. It fits like an ultras profile of, uh, you know, balanced zero. So that one's like 36 millimeter heel, 36 four foot, um, foot shaped toe box, like real thin upper. I really like the upper design on that shoe. Like I could lock that down. It had some issues with the heel part where if you didn't have a long enough sock, it could dig into your Achilles and then start bleeding on the back of your legs. So you did. And even if your sock was kind of thin, it could even dig in there. So I think that caused some problems. Some people would like to just cut a little slit down it so it would be less irritating. Um, but other than that, I thought the upper was really easy to manipulate. Uh, but that shoe just broke down really, really fast on me. So, like, I struggled to even get a hundred miles out of that shoe, uh, in training. And it felt like it would kind of. The foam was, like, really welcoming in the beginning. Like, I would take those first few strides. The first few miles would feel like I was running faster at an effort. Kind of like what I would get from some of these other premium foams. But then as I'd go longer into like a long run and get up into some of those higher long run distances or later in a race, I feel like that started to die out, almost like, um, I'm not sure if this is something that other super shoe foams have a problem with, but it feels like the foam dies like within a run. Almost not necessarily like, oh, at 200 miles, the foam has broken down. It was just like maybe the repetitive stress of a single session gets to a point where there's fatigue in the foam and you start feeling like you're fighting the shoe, almost like you have a different shoe on. Where I remember, like in, in one race specifically, I remember getting to spot thinking, like, I think I just want to change shoes, almost. But it wasn't. It was. I'm like to the degree where I felt like I was going to be much faster, a different pair of shoes. But if I could have just snapped my fingers and another pair would have appeared there, that was just one of their normal trainers, I probably would have done it. So I hope they can get that side fixed because like, there's not a lot of shoes like that in the performance world where you get the foot shape balanced cushion there. So there's an opportunity there. I think for them, if they can get the quality of it up to speed to where I think it works a little bit better and I don't know where their efficiency is. I might bring a pair of those in when we test with Dustin just to see. So because I mean, I'm just assuming that some of this stuff, like these are all perceptions that I have from wearing it versus having like data of it, like, oh yeah, it went from 4% efficiency to one all of a sudden at 30 miles, like what happened. So, like I don't, I don't know for sure, but, um, that's kind of where, where, where I find that shoe to be at the moment. I think there's some upgrades that could make it make it a better shoe. But I mean, I think with ultras lineup in general. If I could just, like, go in there and say like, this is how we're going to build this brand going forward. I think I would just say, like, the thing I like about that brand is they have their setup is like a really low volume foot of their design, moderate volume and like higher volume. So they kind of have like these three different lasts that they build all their, their different models out of. And that's pretty accommodating for people who want foot shape, but also want to be able to make sure their foot fits in the shoe. Right, so they're not swimming around in it if they're a low volume shoe foot, or if they have a high volume foot, they don't feel like, yeah, this is foot shape, but I still feel like it's pinching me. So that's a really cool kind of framework. I would if it were me. What I would do is I would just take those three elements and I would just have like three models on the road side and three models on the trail side, and every model would have that different last aspect to it. So rather than having like, oh well, the lone peak has this last, the Rivera has that last. It would just be like, okay, this model has all three lasts and there's only three of them. And those three are low profile like an almost minimalist type of shoe, moderate cushion and max cushion. And I do the same thing on the trails. Yeah. And then I just sink premium material into the I think a lot of the brands could kind of take note of that and do something similar. It's just like a very clean presentation, like, do you want. And again, I think that's what I'm not sure about. But like I think that's what Nike's kind of trying to do. It's like, here's your racer, here's your super trainer, here's your daily trainer. And then here's like kind of your max cushion trainer or something like that. So I like to make it easy for me to choose. Don't have all these like 6 or 7 different models. It's like, do I want high medium low? And then you'll get people who are brand loyal who are just going to like to use all three of those for different training purposes. Get the trail shoe. I kind of like that. It cleans things up, simplifies it a lot, gets rid of the paralysis by analysis aspect that you get when shoe shopping, which. These days a lot happens. Yeah. And when you, when you get into just like the footwear market to where these brands all have a team of reps that are going out and trying to sell these shoes to brick and mortar shops or online retailers and things like that. And that's a tough job to do, because you have to educate the seller about how to move the shoe. So the more complexity you add to it, the more friction you have between getting the person, oh, the revolving door of employees on like the on the floor of like a fleet feet that you know are coming and going as their careers progress or as they enter a new area and things like that, you're just constantly trying to educate. So like having a real clean sheet like that, where it's like, here's the real focus, here's the models, and then boom, go with that. And I think it makes it so much easier. And when I think of working at a shoe store, when it gets busy and you're just trying to get a customer into the right shoe and things like that, the less complex my brand is or the easier it is to say, oh, that person fits that. That person fits that. The more likely I'm going to be pulling that model from that brand when it gets busy. And I'm kind of trying to make kind of more snappy decisions and things like that. Yeah, totally. It's like, let's have the wall. We have three tiers. We have your highest cushion ones at the top in the middle of your medium and then low profile at the bottom. Um, yeah, I wouldn't enjoy that shopping experience. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it is one of those things where I think one of the, one of the hopeful values of this podcast series is just like, there's so many shoes out there, it's like you. And then on top of it now, it is consequential in performance in terms of which you pick too. So it's like giving people some information about what maybe is what these shoes do, uh, what they don't do and have at least some more tools to consider when you're on there looking for what's going to be the next shoe you purchase. Yeah. I mean, I think what we're trying to do is like, because I'm sure you get this all the time, I certainly do. It's whether, like somebody sending me a direct message or just replying to something. Oh, great. What shoes would you recommend? I mean, it's like it's impossible before. I think maybe 5 to 10 years ago, you could say, like, these are the kinds of brands that are leading the way. And these are some of the best or better shoes. Now, every single brand has something that you could wear. And so I'm like, I'm not. I haven't tried every shoe out there. And I'm like, you basically find a brand that you like and find something that fits, and then I'll provide you recommendations based on what I have run in. But I think, yeah, our goal with this is to like, yeah, we're not going to review every shoe in the world, but we're going to try to find some for any single category. We're going to tell you those and if you're interested in then you can then you can try those. And if they're not comfortable, if you don't like that brand, if you don't like Nike and I'm suggesting you buy Nike, then don't go buy it. But um, yeah, just helping people sift through, uh, the different shoes with the knowledge that, yeah, a lot of shoes are going to work for different people. There is certainly no best shoe out there. I mean, there's a best shoe for you. And, you know, unless you're doing the efficiency testing and things that we're hopefully going to do, it's going to be impossible to figure that out. But I think that. Having an idea of, oh, these 2 or 3 shoes can fit what I'm looking for. Um, that's kind of what people want. But yeah, I mean, if you ask me what shoes are the best, I'll give you my thoughts. But just know that those are hardly all of the options that are that are available. But it's a fun question to ask. I'm like, I feel honored that people are, you know, taking my expertise. But it also was a lot of pressure because you're like, well, if I tell you they hate it, yeah, if they hate the shoe, then I'm like, don't send me the bill for the shoe. You know, it's not it's not my fault. I mean, most places will let you take it back, but you go on the reviews like this. Brady Homer guy told me this just be great. It sucked. I hate this shoe. Oh, never take their advice again. So, yeah, these are recommendations. Uh, not medical advice. Yeah, yeah. Oh. That's funny. Awesome. Well, yeah, I'm excited to keep doing some of this stuff and, uh, get some more models on our feet and share with everyone what we think about them. Yeah, totally. Totally. And I know you've been posting kind of your training log, and I'm posting kind of my training for, for Boston. And if you're, if people are out there reading and, you know, you're reading my blog, I pretty much post what shoe I wore for every single run. So if you're interested in that, you know you can. You can find those. And I'm trying to get more insights from the stride that I've been using and collaborating with them, um, to see they're helping me at least kind of identify some of the shoes and not only the ones that I'm more efficient in, but kind of identifying, um, you know, uh, foot swing patterns and things like that. So it's all interesting. I'm trying to post a little bit about that. So if people are interested in, um, reading The Road to Boston or my training log, you know, we can put a link to that or something. And yeah, I have a little bit of shoe info in that as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think, um, it'll be fun to kind of roll out some shorter form content or written content and stuff that go along with all this stuff too, because it's like, yeah, we got all this information now and it's spread out on these different channels too. So yeah, other than Substack, which obviously links to the show notes for listeners who want to follow you if they're not already, um, where else can they find you? Oh, yeah, probably just on x b underscore. Homer is my username. Um, I sometimes post stuff on Instagram. I think it's Brady dot j dot Homer. Um, I'm trying to do more content on there like running related stuff. So some shoe stuff on there as well. But yeah, those channels people can find me on there if they, if they want to. Cool. Awesome. Yeah. I mean, your Substack is amazing. So you've been posting a lot on it. I like it a lot. Yeah. A lot about your training. I've been finding that stuff interesting. It's been a goal this year to increase frequency on that. So I'm trying to put some topics up there, the training recaps and the podcast stuff. So it's yeah, it's been kind of fun to kind of journal some stuff on that side of things. I think like, you know, I mean, a lot of athletes are kind of open about what they do. But I think one of the things I appreciate about you is like, you're not you're not like, you got nothing to hide. And it's like, yeah, I think that's what I decided to do with and granted, I'm not, you know, a pro athlete or whatever, like training for certain things like competition. But you know, why not just put all the data out there. People are interesting. And I get you're like me, you know, you're gathering it, you're writing in your training diary, so why not just like, post it out there for extra content and to hopefully, like, inspire. You know, people can at least find it interesting. So I think it's a good sub, great platform to do that on as well as. X and elsewhere. It keeps a good paper trail too, because like if you end up having a really good race and you want to look back and say like, okay, well, what did I do in this training block? It's kind of cool to have all that information consolidated somewhere other than Strava. Yeah, it gives you a reason to do it too. If I were just going to do my running diary just for myself, I probably wouldn't do it. But knowing that every week I kind of have this, uh, you're a deadline to meet. I have to post my training log on Monday. Uh, I think that, yeah, a little bit of accountability. There is never a bad thing. Yeah. You know what else I'm realizing with that? We're kind of deviating a little bit, but who cares? Uh, is it's forcing me to just be a little more reflective about the frequency of expectations between, like, yeah, you're not going to always like, I think of, like, when I have a good race, it's so easy to remember, like, oh, yeah, that those, those workouts went so well and you forget like, the ones that didn't or the days that you didn't feel as great. Whereas when you actually write like a reflection for each workout, you get a little bit better, I think, just internal like dialogue or like the actual realistic thing, because sometimes I'll catch myself thinking like, oh yeah, when I was when I ran that fast. I was running my base miles at this pace. Then I go back and I dig through the data and I'm like, oh, I was at some occasions. But then there are other times I really wasn't. Yeah. So then you don't you don't want to give yourself this expectation to be perfect every day when it's probably going to be like, you're going to have some days that are great, some days that are average, and some days that are a little poor. And that cycle is going to play itself out over the course of a training block. And I think the reflections help remind you that I think so, too. Yeah, I think it's good to do. I used to do it all the time in high school and college. I had like a log and I would almost like a diary after all of my runs. So I want to get back to a little bit of that, like not writing, you know, a whole entire blog post for every, every single run. But, you know, just your thoughts so you can remember how that run went and recall if you need to. Yeah. Awesome. Well thanks again Brady. We'll have to chat about something. Uh, exercise or nutrition based sometime again too. Yeah for sure. I want to host you on my Substack sometimes. So we'll do a video and maybe we can, um, I'll think about some topics. I know there's kind of the recent, like, low carb stuff that we need to talk about, so maybe we'll flip it and I can interview you one of these and. Yeah. Put that out there. Let's do it. Yeah. Cool. Awesome. Sweet. Thanks again. Ready? Yeah. No problem Zach.