Episode 419: Ultramarathon Coaching - J Scott Chapman

J Scott Chapman is a certified ultrarunning coach who really enjoys big mountain races. Given that two of his core values are curiosity and exploration, he loves to read the latest studies, but he knows that ultras are not run in a lab. His coaching philosophy embraces the idea that while there are established training principles, no single approach fits everyone. He considers each individual's unique life circumstances to create the best plan, understanding the need for tradeoffs to ensure the training aligns with their lifestyle and goals.

Endurance Training Simplified Series

Zach’s Low Carb Endurance Approach Series

SFuels: sfuelsgolonger.com code: BITTER5 & Zach40 (limited Black Friday 40% off)

Janji: janji.com code: Bitter10

LMNT: drinkLMNT.com/HPO

deltaG: deltagketones.com - IG: @deltag.ketones code: BITTER20

HPO Sponsors: zachbitter.com/hposponsors

Support HPO: zachbitter.com/hpo 

Zach’s Coaching: zachbitter.com/coaching

Scott: readyforultra.com/feed - extratomorrows.com - Coaching - @thescottsy 

Zach: zachbitter.com - IG: @zachbitter - X: @zbitter - Substack: zachbitter.substack.com - FB: @zbitterendurance - Strava: Zach Bitter - TikTok: @zachbitter - Threads: @zachbitter

Timestamps:

00:00:00 Introduction

00:10:31 Integrating Hunting and Training

00:21:09 Strategies for Mountain Running Training

00:31:09 Insights from Experienced Ultra Runners

00:41:13 Efficient Planning for Better Running Performance

00:51:05 Mindset and Preparation for Ultra Running

01:01:30 The Importance of Curiosity and Consistency in Training

01:12:57 Embracing Curiosity in Running

01:21:48 Inspiring Stories

Episode Transcript:

I was listening to your podcast episode. I think it was the one that you shared with me. If not, it was good. Either way, it was the most recent one you had put up on yours where you kind of reversed the roles and were interviewed yourself, and I thought that was a real fun listen. Thanks, man. Yeah. My friend Lowell, we've known each other for a long time. We met back in Austin, so. Yeah. Oh, really? And he was there when I first quit smoking and was like, I'm going to start running. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, one thing I was thinking about after listening to that is when you guys talked about you kind of had a topic where he was trying to kind of dig, dig in with you about just, like, what is it about ultrarunning that seems to collect a higher than average number of people who have a former addiction? So the natural thing to think about is like, oh, well, this is a very extreme kind of addictive type of a sport. So it's just playing into that same kind of mentality of someone who can just happen to have that personality trait, where addiction is something that to be paying attention to a little bit closer than maybe on average. And I was thinking about that. I was like, I wonder how because I kind of pieced these two things together based on that topic. And then another topic you two talked about, which was he was digging into your why and you were kind of just pushing back a little bit with like, hey, I'm not the weirdo. I'm the one who's actually trying to move, which is what our bodies are intended to do in the first place. So it's like, yeah, we've put ourselves in cages kind of to some degree. So my thought is like, maybe, like maybe it's kind of the reverse of that where ultrarunning isn't attracting addictive personalities, but like people are finding ultrarunning because it is sort of what our bodies are hardwired to do. And when you think of, I mean, people think of like they'll go on the watch like a Jim Walmsley documentary and they'll be like, oh man, that's got to be horrible for your body. But yeah, that's not what most ultra runners are doing. Most ultra runners are kind of doing hunter gatherer style pacing almost where they're, you know, walking, running a little bit, walking, running a little bit. And it I think it does sort of feed into just a little bit more of like, all right, I got this urge because I'm artificially being domesticated into these boxes, and this is my outlet to get out of that. And it kind of just matches what someone would be doing. And your description is kind of like, oh, yeah. You know, when I'm hanging out on the beach with friends or something like that, they just want to sit around and relax. I'm like, does anyone want to go for a walk? I think that's the drive. I think it's the drive to do something different from what we've been conditioned to do. Yeah, it's like saying, oh, why are you addicted? You know, every day you're eating and breathing and stuff. Why are you always doing that? It's just like a natural thing. So yeah, I think you're right. It's like. People use drugs and alcohol and stuff to self-soothe, you know, because they've whatever they're anxious about. And, you know, using running to self soothe is very natural. It's like there's a lion. Maybe I should run. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. And to do so like the reverse of it is just like, I don't know that the addictive personality is necessarily like the I don't think the, the the symptom. I think we're blaming the symptom sometimes where or the result of like, oh, I've got this addictive personality. So I'm going to go and do drugs and get stuck on them or alcohol or whatever happens to be. I think it's also something where it's like, yeah, the first problem was we took a person and we stuck them in a box. Right. And had you not put them in the box, then they probably are getting whatever it is they're getting from that drug, that soothing that you were just describing from from the from just getting around from just existing, from surviving essentially, you know, we're spoiled as runners because we experienced, like some degree of probably runner's high almost every time we step out the door and go for a workout. And if something starts to kind of dull a little bit, we just switch the input to something from an intensity standpoint and then we get it back again. So, yeah. Yeah. So I think it's almost like a dog. They go kennel crazy when they're stuck in the kennel for too long or whatever. They're stuck at the Humane Society or whatever. So they wouldn't have to like, want to run crazy or bite people and stuff had they not been stuck in a cage. Yeah, yeah. You know, that's actually funny you mention that because, I mean, we have a I know you're currently training a dog, so you'll probably be able to relate to this. We've got an Aussie who's about four years old and she's very active and conditioned too. So it's like a double whammy with those breeds. And she's also bred to like work to identify what work is. So she's identified. Oh when I, when we get up in the morning and it's usually Nicole I get up and when she goes out for her run, I go with her, and that's my job. I bark at the other dogs. I may try to chase a squirrel. I use the bathroom. I run around town. It's like that's her job in her mind. So, like, occasionally Nicole will be like, she's going to like, rogue or somewhere like that to do a workout and she doesn't get to come. So she gets up. Everything's happening like a typical morning. She walks out the door, Mindy gets left behind. Total depression. And then. Yeah. And then, like, I'm kind of like her last resort option was like, oh, well, Zach is still here. Maybe. Maybe so then when I, like, put her leash on and take her out those runs, she's like, so well-behaved because I think she's seeing it as like, oh, man, I thought I missed out on my opportunity. Turns out I got it. I better make sure I showcase my best self today. So, you know, so I can't guarantee this, but it is funny to see that. So it's like, yeah, we got those examples through our dogs too. Yeah. Yeah. Well let's not you know, waste all the, all this content. We should start recording huh. Oh I'm recording. Yeah. This is going to be the intro. The intro segment. Yeah okay. I started just hitting records, like, right when I hop on, usually because it's just one of those things where it's like, it's easy enough to cut it out if we just aren't making anything worthwhile. But if we do say something that's fun or is a good clip, then it's at least documented, right? Okay, cool. Right on. Yeah. But yeah, let's maybe jump into some specific stuff because I think, like, I think you'll be a fun guest on here for a variety of reasons, but one of them is just I mean, we've been working together now for a little over a year. And when I think of just the coaching side of ultrarunning and then just and the runner side to or the participant side, I should say it, I think you're just such a good example of what could be used as like, okay, how do we take some of the stuff that we at least think we know about training methodology or the approach to it and everything like that, but also be mindful of the fact that this isn't in a laboratory and it isn't necessarily it's it's rare, very rarely, with a professional who is building their life around training and racing. It's often the other way around. And, you know, that's going to range from person to person based on what they have from things like family, social life, work, career interests, all that stuff. But, you know, at the end of the day, most people are going to be kind of close to you in the sense that they have a big interest in the sport. It's rare that you're doing an ultramarathon if you're not interested in it, because it's just a lot of a lot of work and a lot of potential pain and suffering to do something you hate. But you've also got other interests and passions. And I think you're interesting, especially interesting because you kind of have the typical ones where like, you've got a job, you've got a social life, but you've also got interests in other activities outside of just ultrarunning, too. So then how that kind of plays out from a programming standpoint, and then a training standpoint is less about like, well, if we go and we find like the best training input you could ever draw up. How does that actually apply or how does that actually fit? How does that puzzle piece actually fit, given all the things that you bring to the table versus a laboratory experiment, so to speak? And I think that's one of the more fun things for people to kind of solve, because it's going to be an individual question at the end of the day is like, how do I mesh my alternating training with, you know, the obligations I have to do and then the things I also want to do alongside that? And the more curious the person, I think the more interesting that gets, because there's always going to be something and potentially something new that comes up along the way that we have to look at is like, how does this directly impact the training? How does it feed into it, maybe in a positive direction for us to work on something that we weren't before, that may actually turn out to be like a big net win. So yeah, like how does that kind of play into kind of the approach? So I think with you it's you know, it's a lot of the standard stuff, but then it's also kind of like new things that you're exploring to, like, you recently decided to kind of figure out a way to engage with the hunting world a little bit, which, you know, obviously is another time consuming thing. But how do we plug that in with training? How do we use that or the seasons of it in a way where we're kind of structuring your training to best, you know, best navigate that or you got a new dog, how does that play in? You know, I think dogs are really interesting training tools to some degree. I know, like Nicole's had dogs in the past where she's been more fit going into her races because of that, because now she's running with this dog or taking this dog out and, getting kind of extra training, so to speak, along with kind of trying to do the right thing for that, for that particular, interest or hobby and stuff like that. Yeah. It's fun. There's also you know, I, I right now have some privilege because I've been training for 14 years or something in ultras and so I do you know like last Saturday we had programmed you had assigned like an hour, a longer run, some strides at the end. And I was like, well, you know, I'm going to skip this run and I'm going to go hunting. But also I've got a lot of long runs and this is my off season. Like, what's the big deal? Like, how much am I going to go from at my next race? I'm going to go from 259th place to 260th place because I missed this workout. But then what I ended up doing was, you know, 12 mile hike with 4000 ft of gain, with the £40 pack and sometimes knee high snow post holding, going very quietly following tracks, you know, stopping to see if the the elk poop is still it's not oh, this elk poop isn't frozen yet so it's it's fresh. So let me follow these tracks because this is a big bull. And so, yeah, just being quiet, sneaking around in the woods, which is, you know, it's kind of like a childhood dream too. So it's like it's, you know, I didn't feel guilty about it one bit, but yeah, juggling all those things are. Are fun and interesting. And, it's helpful to you because, you know, a lot of times you can get burnt out, like, you know, training for a hundred mile race. You're doing like eight hour runs every weekend or something like that. You could be, you know, there at the end is what I did before Barrett. And I was like, you know, I started getting a little burned out because it wasn't like free fun running either. It's like, okay, I'm trying to nail my nutrition. I gotta have my hydration just right because it's summer or I'll die. and so just doing all of those things can be stressful. So it's nice to kind of like now there's kind of an off we're doing an off season. So it's like, oh, cool. Like lifting weights. Get to ride the bike on Zwift. You know, do a lot of hiking. And then running to try to keep the speed from getting away from me while, you know, we're kind of switching the focus. It's fun. Yeah, yeah, I think you hit on a couple of things that I find really interesting. And one is just like, how do you keep it exciting? And, you know, we're drawn to the eight hour long run because that's one of the reasons we signed up for ultrarunning, because the idea of going out into the woods for eight hours is, is rewarding in some capacity, but it is also kind of an unsustainable activity to some degree, where if you start kind of reading the old Anton Kropotkin blogs and deciding to be doing 200 mile training weeks year round, then you know you can find yourself in trouble at some point or just kind of losing losing that passion, which I think is interesting because sometimes that kind of creeps up on you to where you start normalizing the fact that you're not really enjoying it quite as much as you used to, until you get to a point where you really recognize, hey, why isn't this as much fun anymore? And then you've sort of dug yourself into a hole, and then you kind of end up in this, like, I think this really polarizing position where you think like. It's all or nothing, when in reality it's more about what input can we change here that's still going to be productive for whatever you want to do from a goal standpoint, but it's also going to kind of keep that phase of training. When we do get to a point where we want to send you out into the mountains for half a day on Saturday or maybe longer, that and you're excited to do it. So you're getting the physical, the physical benefits from that. But also you're not hating the fact that you're, you know, training for a 100 mile race. You're doing and, you know, there's enough inputs, I think, that are important in the if we look at it from like a calendar year standpoint, that it's not as hard, I think, as people maybe think to kind of decide, all right, this is a good time or a good opportunity to plug in these and like your strength work and speed focus right now I think is great because for one, you're coming off of a build for a 100 mile race where we did a lot of long volume stuff. So in terms of us maximizing improvements there, we've got a lot less space. And we also have this opportunity where now, when volumes lower, if we can get you strong and fast, then when we get into the actual structure training for another ultramarathon, we're not as it's not as needed for us to be like super rigid with that, making that the primary anymore, because we can afford to just sustain it versus add to it. And then that sort of frees up your opportunities to do kind of the more ultra specific stuff a little bit at the end. So thinking of training and seasons, even, I think sometimes is like a valuable way for people to look at it and not beat themselves up when they see their friends go out for long weekend session and they're, you know, in the gym, pulling the weight off the ground or something like that, or out in the field hunting, which in your case is turned into some basically ultra specific long runs to some degree. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a challenge especially, you know, luckily, I hung out with my girlfriend a lot, and we, And she's a mountain athlete. She doesn't run or anything, but she's. She was competitive, like she was. She did cycling, and she competed in mountain biking in college. She's this, you know, a snow ski patroller. She does guiding and all that stuff. So I was hoping that when we'd go out here into the mountains, that I'm just going to be, like, blowing her socks off with all my fitness. And she's just as fit as I am. I'm like, man, come on. And we're doing like, you know, 4000ft of gain in a day. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is killing me. I thought we were just gonna be walking around in the woods. You know, we got a rifle on and a pistol for the bears and all this other stuff. You know, you gotta have snacks. so it's, Yeah, I was, I was thinking it's going to be easier than it was. And it turns out, you know, I didn't feel bad if I missed any training, I was like, whatever. You know, I can't do it. I couldn't have put in any more effort today than I did. So. Yeah. Yeah, I you know, I also think that's kind of somewhat underrated from an ultrarunning standpoint to where we, we even though I think most people who are going into and have done 100 mile races, they realize walking and hiking is going to be an A component and and likely a big component of getting to the finish line as fast as they can. But in training we tend to sort of, I think, minimize that to a large degree, where we think of all the training being like, okay, I, I should be running. And when you look at the percentage of structured running versus structured hiking that you're probably going to see in the average person's training versus what they actually end up doing on race day. It's probably skewed quite a bit towards the running side of things. and when you can find time to, you know, there's nothing there's nothing unique about walking and hiking that wouldn't make it something that if you get more efficient at it, you're going to move faster at the same intensity. So to some degree, like if we can get you to walk and hike half a mile per hour faster on average at the same intensity, you compound that over, you know, a third of 100 mile race. That's a pretty big needle mover. So when someone has an interest in or just like some hobby or even just like an interest to do more hiking in their training, if they're in a race that's going to have a lot of that. I always think, okay, this is actually like a pretty big win here. We're actually practicing something they're going to use on race day. And, you know, as long as we're not ignoring some of the more general fitness components that are also important to just making you like, you know, a better mountain athlete in general or just a better runner in general. Then there's a lot of room for that. Yeah, I let you know over the New years, almost, almost a year from now, we, I did, you know, across the years, 200 miler. And, man, I got to tell you who inspired me. Was that the gesture, you know, talking about. Yeah, yeah, I just saw him a couple of weekends ago at, Fat Ox. Wow. That guy can walk faster than I can jog. Like he can walk so fast. I mean, he's got long legs. He takes really long strides, and he's going. And he's got outfits on y'all. So, like, it's it's impressive. And you know, he's there. I hope you have a teddy bear with him or who knows, you know, but, he can he must be doing like 14 minute, 13 minute, 12 minute miles walking. And I'm like, oh my gosh. Like, if I really book it like a mall walker, I'm doing like 16, 14 maybe. And so like, sometimes on my walks, I'll, I'll imitate him. I'll do this big, long loping walk and I'm like, ah, he's so good at that. And I was like, I could just get better with that. That would be something. Another thing I noticed today or, Saturday when I was out hunting, I mean, my heart rate up to 135, you know what I mean? And some of those. Parts. And I was like, yeah, this is yeah. I mean, I would be running at this or maybe even lower, you know, on the prescribed run, except for, you know, I did it for nine hours instead of whatever and one hour. So it's, it's interesting. Another thing that I benefit that I've gotten from all the hiking and walking is I've always had very tight Achilles. and I came in to running, like, right at Born to Run. So I started running my first run. My first big run was like a Rocky Raccoon 50 miler. And I ran it in Tom's those little espadrille shoes. And, yeah, I was it was I was hit the ground and I was doing all that, like minimalist running. And that stuff is tough on your Achilles if you're not used to it, especially if you have a tight Achilles, then you throw a mountain in there. So what I have been doing over the summer, I would, you know, as you you know, at first we were doing mostly like two and a half, 2.5 hour runs or something like that for my long run development. But then as we got closer to the 100 miler, those got longer. And then also I was keeping those on flat because I wanted to just get as much speed out of it and get as many miles out of it. You know, both for my ego and for speed 's sake. And then, but as we went into the mountains I mean more towards the longer stuff. I started putting the mountains in, but I feathered it in because I knew in the past, when I went straight in the mountains, my Achilles would just be killing me. But what happened was because I just luckily got it right, my, I've developed a lot more flexibility in like, I can have my heel down on the mountain when I'm running up it, which is new for me, like that's never happened before. So I'm like, ah, this is so sweet. Because forever I tried just the static stretching, but I'd seen this research about like, where strength conditioning athletes were getting more and more mobility just from, like saying, doing deadlifts rather than just trying to touch their toes. And the test was to touch your toes. So the people who were the group that was trying to just touch their toes were basically studying for the test. But the dead lifters got more flexible, which I mean, makes sense because you have this big, big old, you know, big old weight trying to pull you down. So, I was like, ah, this is I just need to do more strength training. And when I'm doing the strength training, trying to get as long into the stretch position as I can so I can get more, you know, a little more mobility in my, like, hamstrings and stuff because I can barely touch my knees when I'm doing, you know, I don't do toe touches. I'm trying to do a shin touch one day. Right? Yeah. No, I hear you like, I think like the range of motion stuff is, it's definitely something where when you add weight to the obviously you want to be careful, but like, yeah, if you try to just bend over and touch your toes, there's, you know, your, your, your, your limiters, your central governor or whatever you want to call it is going to sort of say, hey, stop right there. Regardless of whether I mean, your hamstrings aren't going to snap in half if you went a little bit further, but you add a little bit of weight in, all of a sudden, that kind of like gravity of that weight kind of just extends and pulls it down. Without it, you maybe it's just you're being distracted by the fact that you're holding that weight, and you're more concerned with stabilizing that than you are your hamstrings lengthening. And then it kind of releases and kind of works. But it is a great way to kind of extend that. That range of motion is to get into the weight room and do some stuff like that. The other one I find that's, like a really good passive thing that I do sometimes. I've got super tight hamstrings, too, and it's always been that way, like before I even started running. I've always had a limiter there. Relatives. So I'll just like for maybe 30 minutes a day. If I'm just checking emails or something like that, I'll take the laptop down on the ground and just sit up against the wall with my legs out and then, you know, get a good stretch just from sitting in that position. And then over time, you're able to just tolerate that position a little bit longer. And if you want to add a progression to that, you can just put a little yoga block or something under your heels and you can do that too. But yeah, I think just putting our bodies in these positions that we want them to be able to do or working towards those is sort of the user lose it method I guess. Yeah. It's and I would say to with that you know using like say that again the deadlift, you know that one's interesting too because you're not only are you stretching down to maybe the same depth as you would if you were trying to do toe touches, but then in that position now you're going to like try to lift the weight. You know, you're contracting the muscles in their most stretched, which you generally aren't. I'm not. I'm not doing it on purpose, trying to do that when I'm trying to stretch. I'm just trying to like, push my hands down as far as I can and and wince and whatever. And cry. Yeah, yeah. You know, I kind of want to rewind a little bit, Scott, and just chat a little bit about you as an ultrarunner and dig in a little bit there, if you don't mind. one thing I wanted to ask is just like, if you don't mind sharing, like, because this is just always, I think, an interesting question, because it's such a variety of different experiences, I think is like, what actually got you first interested in ultramarathon? Okay. Yeah. Well, I think it was like 2009. I was smoking about a pack and a half a day and partying hard down and down in South Austin. and, I mean, I just got sick of cigarettes. I mean, they're amazing. Don't get me wrong, you know? You want a cigarette, smoke a cigarette. You're like, oh, that was a good idea. But, after it's just a habit, you have to keep up with it. You kind of keep buying them. You got any smells? Like hell. So, Yeah. One day I eventually was like, I am sick of this. And I took my cigarettes and took them and threw them in the trash. And then it was like, I'm going for a walk. And so then, I went for a walk and I was like, well, look, you know, take seven minutes of cigarette, 30 cigarettes a day. That's 210 minutes. What are you going to do with that 210 minutes? And I said, well, you know, I used to wander around a lot when I was a kid, and I was like, oh, maybe I'll run. You know, I like to run or I like to run. And so even when I played soccer in high school, I would, you know, take my soccer ball and just go just push it around for miles. I didn't even think of it as running. I was like, I'll go practice dribbling. So then, so yeah, I ran to the end of my block and I was like, woof, that's enough for today. And then, and then I think my now my friend Lowell recalls it as like, the next day I went and did like 9 or 13 miles or something. I don't think I was running, I think I just went for a long walk. But then, in my neighborhood there was a little park that had a track going around it. People play kickball and stuff, And so I would jog around that. And then I was like, hmm, I need to make friends because I don't have any running friends. So Joe had started this Hill Country Trail Runners Club there in Austin, which had like 400 members or something. So I was like, oh, trail running. That sounds amazing. so I went and met up with them. And, you know, there's not a lot of like five K trail runs or maybe now there are. But like, back then it was like, oh, if you're going to trail run, then whatever. It's like you got to, oh, you got to run 50 miles or whatever, 100 miles. And so I had some old timers in the group. I said, you think I could run 50 miles? And they were like, sure, you could do that. Like I think they were like poking each other. Yeah, you could do that. Go ahead. First run, first race, do it. And so, yeah, that was so within the first year of running that Rocky recruited 50 milers. You know, I think it was like 316 mile loops or something like that. And, it was back when it was. I know there's like little Rocky, and then there's Rocky Raccoon, and those are two separate races. This is one that Joe has had and it was the same, I think it was the same day as the 100 miler. And so you gotta watch that carnage and stuff. So that was fun. but yeah, I ran that 16 mile pretty fast. I was like, how far back am I from the leader? And then, you know, I walked the other two laps because I was so destroyed. and yeah, it took me like, I don't know, it was dark when I finished and it was summer, I think. So it must have been a long time, probably. I don't know how many hours a lot, but, so yeah, that's how I got into it. And, you know, it's just a sweet, welcoming community. Went on all these like runs with people. They're like, hey, we're going to go run 20 miles. I'm like, I don't know if I could do that, but I'll come. And then, did all that, you know, got to meet Micah. True. From the Born to Run fame. So like, all these people would come to some Italian place where we'd have our monthly meetings or whatever. And, so I got to learn about, you know, drop bags and all these things and say, oh, drop bags. Wow. Okay. There's. Because, you know, I think the internet was pretty light on, like, ultra running stuff, like. Yeah, it was like books. It's where you got Me. Stuff or word of mouth. Yeah, I think that's one of the more interesting parts about ultrarunning to me, is the fact that we still have to rely pretty heavily on, like, anecdotes or like combinations of successful anecdotes. And I think what that does is it builds a community where there's this drive to share it, not just like, oh, well, if someone asks me, or even worse, I'm going to hide this because I don't want someone else to figure it out. It's kind of more of a like if they see it's like, rather than the new person having to work up the courage to go and ask. It's like, oh, there's a new person. I'm going to go tell them about this. And, and you learn a lot that way. And then the other thing that you mentioned that I think just is more probably specific to the greater running community in general, is it's like such a fun sport to get into, because if you're in a city like Austin, Austin's probably like an exaggerated example of this is you show up to a group run, and a lot of the friction of meeting new people gets kind of pulled away because you go to the group run, you already know that everyone's there is going to be, you know, completing this five K loop or whatever happens to be whatever the route is. Once you start, you just end up with the people that are your pace and that sort of, kind of that puts you in a group then and then you're talking to those people. You get to know those people. And then it kind of like it sort of hits. Fast forward on some of those like areas of friction, of meeting new people. That would normally be something you'd have to, like, go out of your way to do it. Just kind of like selects for that with the activity itself. yeah. And then everyone finishes and feels great. So they're all talkative and it's just a great socializing atmosphere. So like, yeah, the number of people that I think just get into running because they decided, all right. Or find a lot of value from it, I guess outside of just the exercise component is like going to like your local group run and things like that, and meeting new people, learning something from someone else. And then and then you're then you're compelled. I heard you talk about this on a podcast. You were on to where when you first got into ultrarunning, you met Andy Jones Wilkins, who, you know, he's been around forever. And you know, he's been I would consider him like a Western States 100 historian at this point, as well as just a sport historian within it, too. And, I mean, he just, like, gave you his phone numbers that call me if you have any questions and, you know, you're not going to walk up to someone of that stature in any other sport and walk away with their phone number in most cases. So, like, you know, unless you have something else that's immediately available to offer them and and it's just like I think there's like that, that compulsion to yeah. Say like, okay, well, I'm going to share something with someone who needs it because then when they get to a spot where I'm at, where they have the knowledge there's going to be someone new and they're going to be able to do the same thing. And if you can kind of keep the momentum from that going, it's such a great self-feeding machine. Yeah, yeah. There's, And, you know, when I asked Andy Jones Wilkins, I said, hey, what can I give you? You know, like, can I Venmo you or whatever it was then it was like 2017 and I was like, can I send you some money or something? I know your time. You know, your teacher or whatever. He was some kind of school administrator doing all that stuff. And, he was like, no, he's like, people have helped me out in the past. All I ask is that you help the next guy. And so, I mean, and that's what I'm doing right now. Like, I have that ready for ultra com website and, you know, we recorded a bunch of stuff for the Big Horn races this past year where, I was like, just having informational sessions and Q&A and stuff with the race director and all of the different race organizer people and, you know, and at first, like, Michelle was like, you know, she's a race director. It's her baby. So she's like, she's like, what's your angle, buddy? What are you trying to get out of this? You know, what are you trying to do over here? You know, she thinks because, you know, I'm sure that the cultural landscape of ultrarunning has changed a good bit. I would say in the past five years, with the influx of people coming off of, you know, maybe through big podcasts that you've been on, you know, and stuff like that, you know, and like, you know, these ra ra people that that are leaders in thought communities, and they're bringing in people who are newbies, who aren't coming at it from a an ultra running ultrarunning group. Maybe they don't have any friends. Maybe they haven't thought to seek out a group or know that groups exist because it's just people who are like, you don't know me, son. You know they're coming from those people. They're not coming from like, oh, run club or whatever. So I wanted to kind of build this thing to help those people to, you know, kind of put the civics out there, kind of like, hey, you find someone on the trail, it doesn't matter if it's a race or not, you know, and they're in distress. You need to help them out, like, you know, destination trail. They actually have that. I think it was the destination trail. They actually put that in their rules, which is nice because. So then people at least consider it, you know, whereas I think people that have been in a while, they would never, you know, see someone out there on the trail, you're like, man, you got to help them out. They might die literally. So it's like, it's the different thing about this sport. You know, other sports, you don't help them out, like whatever, they're still at the baseball stadium or whatever, you know, someone else can help them. But now where we run, if you don't help them, they might not find the body, you know? Yeah, yeah. No doubt. Yeah, yeah. There is that. Yeah. You've been in a dark enough place at some point where you know how bad it could get, and if someone else is there, then the impulse is to, okay, how do I assist versus. All right. Someone else will take care of that. So yeah, it's interesting, you know, that that actually brings up an interesting point too, because that series that you guys put together for Bighorn, I feel like that should be something that's like reproduced for other events too, because. Just from, you know, one thing I've learned with kind of coaching and then just doing the sport is there's a lot of stuff that gets ignored prior to the signing up of an event that could easily, like, really improve the performance. That is almost 100% independent of the training and fitness side of things. Things as simple as just like kind of having an idea of like, oh, what is going to be a good strategy for navigating the aid stations on this course versus the ones I've been on in the past, or if you've never done it before, just in general or like so having those like kind of like tools on race websites that like you can just send people to to say like, all right, go through these before you sign up for it. So you get an idea of this is actually something you want to try to apply all your hard work towards versus something other that you could do that towards. And I mean, it's I just recently recorded a podcast on, I think there was like seven things that you should consider, like as you're signing up for or, you know, maybe like right away after you've signed up for event just to make sure, like, I'm going to go into this training block with as many opportunities to practice some of these things as I can, so it's as intuitive as possible. When you get out to do something that you're either going to do rarely or in some cases, never, never before. And I think that sort of stuff is probably a huge asset for any, any race that's attracting large numbers of people. Yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I need to put something together for race directors because it's like some people get it right or some people try real hard, you know, and put a lot of information together. I'm thinking Aero VIP, you know, they not only do they have instructions for you as the racer or whatever, but like if you're working the aid stations, there are diagrams on how you're supposed to put the peanut butter and jelly on the thing. Yeah. How you're supposed to cut bananas properly. What's her name? Pat. Is it Patty? Patty Curry? Yeah. Patty Murray. Yeah, she's got it dialed, dialed. But, I mean, here's the one big thing that many races, most almost all race sites don't have is search. Like, hey, I'd like to search where the aid stations are because, you know, it's like you get to a race website. I can't count how many of them just say, have a tab called info. And it's like, well, everything on this website is information. Is that where my aid stations are? No, that's under race day. I'm like, okay, well, I was looking for information about the age station, so that might be on info. If you had a search then I could say, ah, search where this thing is or, you know, search the aid station and then all these things come up, the cutoffs, whatever. But that might be under crew instructions or whatever, you know, it's like it's an endless mess. So that's another reason why I put this. I put this stuff on here on the ready for ultra website because like so for instance, for instance, we took all those shows that people had. I downloaded the transcript. I've published the recording so people could see those later. But then also I took the Q and A's and got me to pull it out, pull it out and like make a document. So then now you can search that document instead of having to scroll through the video and be like, well, what did she say about camping at the Civic Center or whatever it is? And so now you can just search all of these things. yeah. And so it's just it's just trying to distill down the information because it's not ideal for race directors to put together the information because they know everything. You know what I mean? So it's like, you have to know that the bus schedule is a, a link to a word document at the bottom of this page or whatever. You know what I mean? They know that. But like, yeah, but they already know the bus schedule. What about everybody else? It's like, yeah. So it's tough for them because they don't have the kind of beginner's mind, the outsider's mind, because they have all that stuff floating around in their head. They're being asked about it every day or fighting about it every day with the for service or whatever. So yeah, it would be good to put together something for folks because it's tough, you know, it's tough enough for a runner training and stuff. And it's like, should I bring water? Is there going to be any ice? Oh, maybe. Yeah. I think very descript things like that could be so useful for the user. And as a sport grows this, I think this is going to just have a heavier incentive to do this because I'm thinking of it this way. Like if I'm a race director and I mean, ultimately I'm going to end up having partnerships with brands. They're going to sponsor the race, right? They're going to be the presenting sponsor, the nutrition sponsor, all these other things. So like if I'm going and I'm pitching my race to like a nutrition company that I'm going to look to bring on board, one of the things I'm going to I'm going to tell them that I'm going to do is like, look, every runner that signs up, let's say I have an event that's going to bring in like 500 runners or something like that. I'm going to tell them like one of the pieces of one of the tools I'm going to send out to everyone who signs up for this race is a detailed description of where the aid stations are, what are at the aid stations, and why they should practice with what is at the aid station. And you know, if your product is sponsoring the event and they have it at that aid station, and then the race director takes that extra educational step of saying, hey, you know what? If you're going to run 100 miles and be eating thousands of calories of these engineered fuels. Maybe you want to play around with them in training. Yeah. So like yeah. I think the ROI of a sponsorship with an event when you know that they're, you know some percentage of their participants are going to look at that and say oh well I should at least engage with this product to find out if it works for me. Because if it does I can eliminate a huge logistical component of the race where now I don't need drop bags because I know they've had, you know, this specific product at every aid station, and I can just grab and go with that and save myself a couple of minutes. you know, things like that, I think. And that's that kind of goes back to us talking about before about some of that pre planning of like, how can you actually run faster without running faster, or how can you take your fitness and get all the all the benefits from it from, by not kind of losing, losing time on, on logistical type things. But yeah, I mean, stuff like that is, is because I will laugh to I'll say one more thing is like, you know, the race directors always have a little bit of, I think rightfully so to some degree, where like, oh, I'm getting all these emails and questions about like something that's on the website and it's like, I would love it if I could just get only the questions that don't have clear answers to versus having to answer this one question over and over again. It's like, well, if you're getting the same question over and over again and it's on the website, that's probably because it's not clear enough, you know, make it so easy that the person stumbles into it and you'll avoid that. So some of that's kind of like what you were saying is having those like those search tools or those websites set up in a way where, you know, if someone wants to know this, they're going to find it really easily, and then you're probably going to get less questions about it. Yeah, I think, I think in America, we everywhere, the whole world could benefit if everyone got a little bit of service design, like teaching when they're younger, because you see it all the time. My gym has a two lane track, and the inside's the slower lane, the outside's the faster lane. And they have put a sign on the outside lane. It says check in the outside lane before passing to see if there's runners coming. I mean you put it in the outside lane and you're that your target audience is people who don't look in the outside lane. So they're never going to see that sign. Like, you know what I mean? Like, what are you doing? Is this a joke? Like, I feel like it's a joke anyways. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of interesting stuff like that. So it's like if you put on the back of the toilet seat, hey, he always puts the toilet seat down. You see this one? You know, like, I will say one more thing about the nutrition thing because, yeah, this is one thing that's really bugged me is in race for race day, nutrition is like. I've worked a lot of races and and worked with a lot of aid stations, and I've seen this many times where it's like, oh, okay, cool. I'm gonna make some more tailwinds. Okay, well, how much do I put in here? They're like, well, I usually put this much, but you know, it's hotter today. So we're going to water it down some or whatever or there's extra ice in it or something. And I'm like, well, dude, but these people have been training for a year and they're depending on this fuel. Shouldn't we make it according to the directions and, you know, like, yeah, you know, and I'm like, dude, that's like so there's that. But I will say this, that in dealing with, talking to Michel and, the Big Horn community, that I don't know if Tillman does this with every race, but I imagine they do when their sponsor is that they say they make you sign something that say, we'll mix this to the specifications or whatever. So it has to be mixed, like full, you know, what they would expect? It is, you know, whatever it is, 40g for or 2020 something grams for a 16 ounce bottle, I think is what it ends up being. So that's a great start. But for a while I thought there should be a certification or a pledge that the race director signs that says, hey, I will make sure that all of the beverages, you know what? Whoever the sponsor beverage sponsor is or whatever we're using, it's mixed in a way that and we're communicating it in the way that we're communicating it. So like if we're saying, hey, it's all going to be full strength, whatever, or if it's all going to be half strength or whatever, or, you know, you have to communicate it and then you have to communicate it to the session. The, you know, the captain of the aid station and the captain of the aid station needs to make sure it's getting mixed that way, because it's all good for the race director to sign that. But like, you know, she's not going to be at all of the aid stations at the 100 mile race. Right. And so, it's up to the people that are right there to actually make sure that happens. And I just, you know, it's like, you know, people are so up in arms about spring energy falsely advertising their, their macros or whatever, but like, I mean, that just happens all the time at every race, like where people are. Yeah, we got tailwinds, but maybe it's just like water, you know what I mean? Right? Right. Tailwind flavored water. Or maybe it's double strength. Who knows. So. And when you have. 5 to 20 miles between aid stations. You know, when you're talking about 200 milers and it's like, yeah, it makes a big difference because you're going to be like, this is all the nutrition I'll have for the next six hours maybe sometimes, you know. Yeah, yeah, that is really interesting because it's like there's I would imagine it makes sense that like your example of tailwind that they would try to reach out and say, hey, make sure you're doing this right. Because for them it's like if someone they're making all sorts of promises, right, like any marketing team is, and then someone goes and they get like an experience that's different from that, they're going to swear off that product pretty quickly or like over it's over concentrated and you get a digestive issue. Nothing will turn a runner off from your product quicker than them associating it with a stomach ache. And just psychologically too, it could have nothing to do with the actual formulation of the product. Could just be like, you know, I always think back, like when I was a kid, I got a stomach ache because I ate like milk dud ice cream or something like that. And it's like, now I don't eat milk ice cream because whenever I think of it, I think of stomach ache. You know, they don't want that association with their product. So you think like, yeah, for them there's an incentive for them to probably try to. I don't know what the solution is for them other than just saying like what you described. Maybe sport gets bigger. They'll it would be interesting if you had like you have your like your, your ambassador team of people that are going to like, you know, give them free product in exchange for like them saying, hey, yeah, I use this product and maybe, maybe also have them like go out and volunteer at an aid station and then saddle them with like the proper formulations. You know, it's getting mixed, right. or an educational piece, at least it's. But, you know, the other thing I was thinking with that too is like. If you're practicing with the product, this probably becomes a problem at a later stage in a race as like your palate gets a little jacked up from just fueling for the day. But early on, you know, if I use a product and I'm mixing it myself in training, I get pretty accustomed, kind of like where I can sort of taste if it's, you know, to, to a degree, you know, if it's strong, average or weak. So, like, if I roll into an aid station and like, say, the first aid station, I fill up my thing with theirs and I have it, I can probably tell, like, yeah, this is weaker than what I was mixing at home or this is stronger. Now that's kind of a bad time to have that happen because like, you can't necessarily remedy it perfectly. You're compromising to some degree or grabbing something off the aid station to try to counteract that a little bit. because learning on the fly is never going to save you time. But, you know, it is. I guess at the end of the day, something you could I guess it would be if anything would be just a little bit of a motivator to maybe practice with the product you're going to use on race day. So you're intimate enough with all of the textures, flavors and everything with it that you can kind of recognize different things about it that you wouldn't be able to otherwise. otherwise, you know, you're going with the, the package stuff, not the, the mix on the race table stuff. It's tough man, because it sucks mixing up things. Nothing's mid-race. If you don't have a crew and stuff, then it's like you have to do all that stuff and you're like, you don't even want to mess with it. And like, whatever. And not all products mix evenly either, like some have settling effects too. Like that's depending on what their ingredients are. you know, some of the more kind of like natural products tend to have a harder time with this because they're not going to have all the stuff that kind of dissolves as easily in some cases where, yeah, what's at the bottom of that five gallon jug might be different than what's at the top of that five gallon jug. Yeah. Yeah. And I know it's a thing . I want them to put ice in that drink too. So it's like you know it's hard to even if you had some ratio like well if you're going to put a £4 bag of ice that needs to be this much liquid, whatever, and it's going to change as it melts and whatever. So it's it's tough. But, you know, one thing I was thinking about today and I think about this a lot when people are like, fasted running is stupid and you're going to die, your legs are going to fall off as soon as you go out the door because you're fasted. And whatever is that? Is that the push back in my mind, one of them, there's many. But like, there's just like a lack of nuance when people talk about this stuff, it's all like no jam it or slam it. That's all there is. But there's, one of the things is, is that, you know, if you get into that situation where you're like, oh, man, you know, you leave the aid station, oh, this is pretty much almost water. You know, if you had only ever just been completely fueled on all your runs, then you might be like, oh my gosh, what's going to happen? Am I going to die or whatever? But if you've done for our runs, you're like, big deal, I'll just get some of the next day's station. We're like, yeah, suck on a band or something, you know? And similarly, like if you have a little bit of a bar fest and you're like, you know what? It's just not working out for me to eat right now. I'm going to give it some time then, like, you know, in a 200 mile race, you could just, like, not anything for four hours, you know, that happens. And people, it works out just fine. It's just like sometimes you got to take a break and then what are you going to do, quit? Like, no, you just take a break and you got some fuel, man. Just take it easy and, you know, get some. If you can get down a ginger chew or some candy or something, whatever you don't have to worry about like, oh my gosh, well, I'm not going 60g per hour or 90g an hour and 150g per hour. Like, what's going to happen? You're just like, well, I know it happens. This is what I've done before. And big whoop you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You raised some good points there. I put up kind of like a joke when the spring energy issue started kind of getting some momentum. And it's basically like well it turns out people using spring energy are more fat adapted than they thought. Yeah yeah yeah. Because it's yeah it's the same thing kind of it's like you wonder how much is psychological to do just like, okay, I got this sense of relief because I hit my target versus did you actually need it or not? yeah. And I think, I mean, you bring up a point that I find just really interesting with respect to kind of preparing someone for a race to, especially these longer races, is getting in the mindset of don't or B be ready to expect something to go wrong. Don't think like, okay, a perfect day means everything's going to happen according to script. It's just not going to. The question is when is the script going to be? Deviated from. And then knowing that that's going to happen and that there's going to be some tools that you can use to remedy it, whether it be like what you said, okay, I'm just going to like let my stomach chill for a little while. It's not the end of the world. I can go an hour without eating. Stomach will come back around then, and then I'll start eating again versus, oh, this is the terrible end of the world. I can't eat now. I won't be able to eat for the rest of the race. That's ten hours. I'll die. Yeah, that's where your mind wants to go. So, like, I think just going into the event expecting like, oh, yeah, there's going to be this hurdle at some point and it's going to be something I wasn't really wanting to have happen, but I can still have my best day if I just recognize what it is, what it is. And I kind of circle things around it and make the best decision from there. And that that I think just at the end of the day, is just kind of like the if I had to sum up, ultrarunning experience on race day is like one of the kind of key pillars of just getting yourself to the finish line, versus kind of finding yourself dropping out or, giving up early or something like that, which, you know, those things have their place too. But, you know, sometimes if it's something like if you're expecting perfect every time, you're going to have a lot more unsuccessful days in your mind than if you assume, like, there's some problem solving as part of the game. Yeah. Yeah. It's part of the fun. You know, it's like yeah. And then it makes life easier too because you're like you know if you're used to a sport where barfing and pooping your pants is built into it, then everyday life seems so much easier. You're like, oh man, this is nice. You know, like something goes wrong at a toilet right there or a shower. I mean, this is nice, I don't know. So when you hear people complaining about how hard life is, you're like, man, yeah, I guess for you. Uh Huh. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And another one I always like to share with people too is I mean, I've had a race before where I hit a rough spot and I'm like, this is it for me. I'm done. And I drop out and then, you know, you go back to the hotel room or wherever you take a shower and you're like, dang it, I feel good now. And it's just like the getting clean side of things. So like, I know I think Courtney De Walter is probably the biggest example of this, where she'll brush your teeth and, you know, runners who've done that. I mean, you're cleaning out your mouth like you've just been jamming all sorts of engineered fuels and drinks and whatnot, and you just feel like, you know, a kid on Halloween. Halloween where it's like, it feels good to brush your teeth and like, just that will give you extra energy. Just that, like that sensation of like, okay, I just like, took care of that. And so little things like that where you start recognizing, oh, what could I do to kind of replicate that, maybe have some like wet wipes or something at the aid station and clean off myself a little bit so I don't feel like I'm layered in sweat and dirt all the time, or quick brush my teeth after that aid station so that I feel like it. You know, my mouth has reset. It's funny how that stuff translates to sometimes you're your legs and your, and your mental psyche. Yeah. I did that for the bear. I used a lot of those old toothbrushes. And, because I think they, you know, I bought them and it came like a pack of a thousand or something. So I have enough forever, you know, I guess unless until we find out whatever, that those things will kill you. But, I was doing that at a bear, like, and it was like the sun was coming up, and I was at this aid station. It was freezing cold. I was with my pacer and man, I put, you know, we ate a little something, pancakes. And then, and then I brushed my teeth or whatever. I was like, well, you know, whatever. My number 23 going out there, like you're going to keep going. And I was like, God, I look that bad because I feel great. I was like, this is fun, you know? And so, I was like, yeah, I'm going, why wouldn't I? I'm like, I don't know. So yeah, just, yeah, it makes it definitely clear doing the little things like that, taking care of yourself. And you don't really have to stop to do those things generally. You know, you can like, on your way out the aid station, just rub it across your teeth and get some of that carpet off your teeth. And then, or when I was doing across the years, you know, it's whenever I had to, like, stop to go into the porta potty for a sit down, then I would take, I would take like a couple of gloves that take some wipes and everything. So when I come out there, it'd be like a mini shower as well. So it was like it was a little lighter, it was a little cleaner. And I was like, yeah, fresh smell, like tea tree oil and everything. So it's like, all right, grab a cup of coffee. All right. I'll just take a lap. Yeah. And I mean this is just things that you're talking about before too. If someone who's new to the sport, which we're seeing a lot of or just, you know, even new to running to some degree with the number of people that are coming into ultra these days, they're never going to think of that on their own. Right? You know? So they're going to need to hear that from someone like you as to like, oh, okay, maybe that would be a good thing to plan for. yeah. It's interesting stuff. I know, just kind of along the lines of, like, coaching and teaching and all that stuff. You know, one of the other reasons why I wanted to have you on the podcast here is because you're actually going to be joining me as a coach under kind of my umbrella of, of services. So I wanted to kind of just chat with you a little bit about like kind of a little bit about maybe your philosophy. I think we've talked about that to some degree here, but kind of what got you interested in the coaching side of it? Was it just? Kind of organically starting to help friends and stuff like that, and then you realize like, hey, maybe if I put my mind to some education and stuff around this, I could be more than just a question board for people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, you know, I've always done. I've always taught in general, like I've taught programming. I mean, even as a kid, I taught Vacation Bible School, you know, taught them all about Jesus and this and that. So, like, I've always loved teaching and spreading information and because, like, well, I'm one of those people who I just like to firehose myself, have, like, a bajillion running books here. And some of them are baloney. Some of them are great, some are baloney and great because, like, you can be wrong and be helpful. So there's all kinds of things there. And so it's like, I think helping people, yeah, kind of distill that stuff. And to be honest, you know, there's all this interesting science and there's a bunch of interesting products and stuff, but almost all that stuff doesn't even matter. Like, you know, it's like sleeping and running and eating and, like, almost all of it, but, like, figuring out how that works for you can be challenging and and realizing that, you know, some things have to be priorities. Like, you're not going to get any adaptations if you don't sleep and eat. So it's like, you know, you gotta at least have access to food and sleep and, you know, and, you know, some sort of manageable amount of stress, I'd say with like a lot of ultra runners, it's almost never that they're like. Not bumping up against the ceiling of the amount of stress that they're able to deal with. Like it's always that they're like needing to manage their stress so they're not overdoing it. And that's like all of stress that just all comes together. It's not like you get to be like, well, that's just life stress. It doesn't matter, you know? so yeah, just helping to get a perspective on that stuff, you know, is helpful. And I, I'm one of those people who's an overachiever. And I have like two of my core values are curiosity and exploring, which means I'm always wanting to do more stuff. So I'm always like, I like running, but I also like play tennis and soccer and whatever. So then I have to be like, you know, I have to manage those things. I have to be like, well, you can play tennis when you're 60. You're not going to be doing like ridiculous mountain running when you're 60, or I probably won't want to because like when things go wrong, it's going to be worse when you're old and stuff. And, but like tennis, you know, hey, you fall down, you're just on the tennis court. Whatever. So, so, yeah, I just, I think, you know, I have, you know, special perspectives, too. Like, I don't necessarily, fall in with all of traditional running coaching, but to be fair, a lot of traditional run coaching. I say ultra running would be like, it's just like repackaged five K training, but longer and with more supplements maybe, I don't know, but, a lot more gear. So, so it's interesting. I, you know, I kind of take it more from the a health perspective, too. You know, I prioritize health sometimes over fitness, like right now, especially. Right, like in my little off season. Right? I'm doing weight lifting because I know that, like the amount of muscle that I have, I mean, I'm getting old. I'm like, £48, right? I'll just we'll go with that is, yeah. I'm old enough to be like me. I think I'm 48. And, so, you know, lifting the amount of weight, you know, the, the muscle that you have, the bone health that you have is not only going to affect how long you live, how well you live, the amount of pain you experience, the amount of independence you get to have 20 years from now. but also like your happiness, your, like your mental, like, not mental health, but maybe probably not. Weightlifters are not known to be the most mentally healthy people. I'm kidding, I'm kidding. Don't come after me, guys. No, but, but as far as, like, you know, like dementia and these sorts of, you know, mental problems, they muscle helps with, staving that kind of stuff off also with, like, With, just like your your blood sugar, things like that. There's just a lot of health things. And so I, you know, I am willing to you know, Christopher Hitchens said, in life we must choose our regrets. And I'm willing to go from 259th place to 270th place if that's what happens. Because I'm lifting weights, I don't think that's what's going to happen. But, you know, I'm willing to take that chance, you know? So yeah. Yeah, I started well, I started to weave around on the road there. That's fine, that's fine. That's a long forms for. So we've all you want. I'll say this, I think one of the reasons why I got excited to kind of bring you on is because, like, you're super curious, so. And you're not just curious for the sake of being curious, you're curious and then you do something about it. So like, it's not like if you program something for someone that is very unique from what we would typically see, it's not going to be because you're Unaware of what the traditional starting points are. It's going to be because you know what the traditional starting points are, but you've actually also unpacked the person's life and all the components that go into it that you saw. Okay, it doesn't kind of like we were talking about before. It doesn't really matter if on paper this is like the best physiological way to go about things. It's just not going to fit that person's lifestyle. It's not going to fit their interests. They're not going to be happy with it. Ultimately, they probably won't be consistent within it. And consistency is going to be kind of one of the biggest, biggest variables of success at the end of the day, because, you know, we're doing these things over and over again. So, you know, whatever path we choose, being consistent within is likely going to yield the best result. And I think you're going to do a really good job of teasing that out. Like, it's not like it's not a weakness of yours to figure that out. I think that's a strength of yours. Like when you're working with someone one on one, you're not going to be something where you're just like, passively waiting for those things to present themselves is going to be something where you're going to go and find them. And if you don't know the answer to, you're going to ask about it and then you're going to find them. So for for a sport like ultrarunning where there's like this tandem of like being aware of kind of the position statements and the starting points and what maybe works best on paper, but then being able to apply that appropriately to the person who has a ton of variables that don't necessarily engage with that position paper and those those specific things, and be able to kind of like learn with them to some degree, but also give them a list of things that they can do that's going to be their best option based on what we know about them. And everything else is just going to be the quickest way to finding success for anyone specifically. So, you know, those sorts of things aren't aren't I wouldn't say normal. And, I think they are what make good ultrarunning coaches. So, the fact that you kind of just naturally gravitate towards them without having to kind of force it or learn it necessarily is, is probably your biggest asset in my opinion. Thank you. Zach. That's great. Yeah. I'll say, you know, I am curious. And so there are, you know, in my mind, there's always I don't know if you've ever seen Bobby's World, you'll have similar access, you know, but, you know, he's always got this, you know, his brain is just going off in the ether. You know, someone says something like, you know, that'll happen when pigs fly. And so he starts to imagine pigs flying and stuff like that. I kind of do that with all of this sport reading that I do. So I don't just read running stuff. I read, you know, weightlifting stuff, running stuff, cycling stuff, boxing stuff people are doing. And, you know, the Soviet era stuff, there's just all kinds of wacky things that people are trying. And I don't necessarily do it because I'm looking for something. I'm just trying to, like, inspire myself to think like, what are some oddball things that people haven't thought of yet? And I'm not talking about, like Joel Steadman, weird weightlifting stuff on BOSU balls, but like the, but like, you know, our humans and then reality we have to have, like, we can't understand something unless we already have a construct for it in our mind. Like for instance, okay, like cycling people, they're doing stuff. The science will follow because people are like, oh, well, people are eating baking soda and then they're doing this or whatever. And so like, maybe we should study that or whatever, where it's like there's been these things like where they show people that some tribe they showed a picture of, I don't know if this is real or not. I think it's real. I haven't double checked it, but it was in this nonfiction book I was reading, and they showed this tribe like a picture of an animal. And the people, they were like, hey, this is a zebra or whatever. And the people were like, and they were like wrinkling it and making it sound. They couldn't see the picture. They didn't. They didn't see that the picture was a picture of the zebra. They thought they were talking about the paper. And so they were sniffing the paper and wrinkling it or whatever. And it's like or like, when, you know, some Europeans came to the New World, they couldn't see the boats or something like that. You know, I hear this story a lot because they didn't have a concept that they were like, well, that just must be a crazy cloud, because, like, what could that be? And so I was like, I think that we have that. so I'm always thinking about that stuff, but most of the time, you know, it's going to be in reality and most of the truth for a person's running. For their fitness journey is going to be in that stuff that they like to do, right? Because, you know, you know, you said that, consistency is a large part of it, but I would argue it's like maybe all of it because it's like, you know, if you do a hero workout once a year, that's consistent training, I guess, because you do it every year once. But, you know, if you could do them a little closer together, you know, you could probably get a lot more fitness and you could get all of your workouts wrong, wrong, and get a lot of, a lot of fitness out of just doing them. So if there's something that you like to do, if it's like, well, we're going to, you know, for instance, for me, I mean, I think a lot of runners like this now, you see Heather Jackson and, well, David Roach, you know, these people that are run and they like to ride bikes. I mean, riding bikes is fun and riding bikes outside is very dangerous. But now there's Zwift and stuff like that. So it's like that and that's fun. So it's like virtual reality. It's great for winter when the outside sucks and is dangerous, like your eyes will get scratched from running outside from the wind. so I don't do that, but like so we'll put that Zwift in there and I love it. And, it's funny that it took us a while for some things to come out in our coaching relationship. Like, I was like, you know, I used to be a lot. I responded very well to lower volume training, and I was like, why didn't you tell him this like six months ago? And I was like, I just, you know, I forgot about it because it was so long ago. And then I look back and when I was primarily cycling for triathlons, and I was like, I was like, man, I was so fit when I rode the bike. I just loved getting on that thing and just grinding on it. And it's like, that information is so helpful because I could do three thresholds, you know, sessions a week and not be done, you know, tear me down. It just burns my legs up and I can recover from it. And I think it's fun. It's just so if you can, you know, if I can help you find those things and we can program them together and get the appropriate amount of volume because, like, we're not trying, you know, as coaches, we're not trying to get we're not trying to accumulate a bunch of stimulus. We're trying to get the, you know, response to the stimulus. We're trying to get the adaptations. That's the goal, right? Because if you're just throwing up too much work, you know, you're no days off or whatever, then it's like, well, that's cool if that's just your hobby. But if you want to make gains, you have to like to get the adaptation, get the yeah, you know, don't go over your maximum recoverable volume, I guess. Yeah. And like the overloading can work in the short term and it can work with the young, the young and inexperienced. But it's such a yeah, yeah it's, it's such a problem to the degree where like the fact that you have this past experience where it did work, it feeds into the psyche of, well it's going to work again. So then I think people oftentimes will look at it as like, well, I'm doing something wrong here, or maybe I'm not. Maybe I do even more when in reality it's like you captured progress with wildly inappropriate inputs because you are so like your sponge was so dry that like, anything was going to fill it up. But now your sponge is full. So we have to find a way to kind of like get more into it creatively and through ways that are actually going to like, kind of actually create what you said that like the stress and then adaptation from the recovery and everything like that. And that's going to be, going to be different based on what they're doing, what their previous training is, and everything that kind of goes into it. So yeah, I mean, that's where the fun kind of individual kind of almost like the communication, like I'm going to get to know you type of, side of coaching comes I think. And because the better you feel like you can just have a fun conversation with the person, the easier it is going to be just to kind of almost accidentally share those things at times. Yeah, and I won. Another thing I think that's helpful is figuring out people's values. So it's like for, you know, knowing that mine are, you know, curiosity and exploration, like, you know, then you're probably not going to be like, well, you should only run on the track 100% of the time. I mean, but I mean, to be fair, I still find I can be curious about the track too, but you did across the years. That's pretty close to a track. Yeah, yeah. Oh, the training was rough on that. That was rough. Like because I was doing so much road running. It was the middle of winter, you know? But I was like, oh, I'm not going to train like this again. But anyways, I like knowing what people are like, huh? I only want, you know, mastery is like my, is one of my core values. Then it's like, well, maybe we'll pick a couple or three pieces around you and we'll work towards mastering those pieces, like so. Around here we have Mount Sentinel like. So I think, you know, Adam Peterman will use that one. And you know he knows like when he's killing that thing he's ready. He's ready to mess some stuff up. You know what I mean. And if you know so if that's your value then we probably work on that rather than like something new every day. Never, you know, never getting to do the same workout more than, you know, a couple times or whatever. It's not going to suit you as well because you want to master it. So I think, you know, just getting in touch with people's values such as, WUI and software as it sounds, it's going to really help. It goes a long way. And then it also helps me understand how you're going to react when things don't go well or like, like for me. Okay. Again, curiosity, exploration. You know, when we started doing like speed workouts, short speed workouts, I didn't care if I got it right. I was like, let's just see how this goes, see what it feels like, and then I'll be like, and then later I can be like, did I do it well? Did I do it poor? How do I know? And then, and then we'll see you next time. What happens? And so I'm just curious every time, to me, it doesn't matter that, you know, I sucked or like, I or like I, you know, timed out at mile 82 of the barrel. I was like, I mean, I was bummed because I was like, I wanted to see what the rest of the course looked like. And I was like, well, whatever, you know, I got to see a lot. It was really fun. yeah. And then I got to think about, like, be curious about, like, what went wrong or like, or if there was anything I could figure out what went wrong. So, yeah, the race strategy stuff is fun too, because it's like. You, you know, you can figure out, like, how to run the race. Like maybe from aid station to aid station or lap of a track, track, race or whatever. But it's hard to like, figure out, like, okay, I failed, quote unquote failed or whatever. I only got this much of the race done. what went wrong? And you can't just do it from aid station. Aid station? It's like what happened to Luke before? Two weeks? Before a month, you know? Did I run a race too hard, too close to it? Or maybe it's not. Figure out. Well, maybe, like with the bear, I was like, if I run that race ten times, I bet I finish it at least eight out of ten. I just happened on my first one to miss and I'm like, whatever, you know? But, you know, other people. I don't understand that part of the ultrarunning community is that you're doing this thing that is, like, so easy to fail at. It's so hard to do. And then when you fail, people are like, very sweet. I have a very sweet friend who I know she only cares the most for me and everything, but she was like, I'm here for you when you're ready to talk. And I was like, what are you talking about? That was fun. Like, you know, I thought, I feel like that was a success, you know, like, I got out there and I mean, sure, I would have liked to see the rest of the course, but, I mean, that's just how it goes sometimes, you know? So it's an odd part of our culture that you fail when you, you know, because, like, if you gotta learn to shoot a gun, you're going to miss, you're not going to be like, oh, I'm so sorry. I heard you missed a shot. It's like, yeah, that's how it goes, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny I know like what? You explained it because like you, if you take that information to anyone outside of the alternative community, they're going to like it, their job is going to hit the floor. You ran 82 miles. Nicole had a similar situation to that, where she was going to do a 100 mile race, dropping out at 100 K. So like she goes back to, you know, gets to work where nobody there are ultra runners and they're like, oh well how did that race go. And she's like oh I only made it 100 K. Like oh wow that's amazing. Yeah, yeah yeah. No one there thought it was a failure that she ran 100km in the mountains. It's all perspective at some point. Yeah, my mom posted on Facebook. She's like, so proud of my son. He just finished his 82 mile race. I was like, well, yeah, that's what you want to make out of it for sure. Yeah, yeah. But I mean it's it's also another interesting point just in general kind of from like the coaching side of things or just if you're unpacking your own training and racing and trying to decide like what to do is it is good to kind of look at things and think like, okay, like what went well, what didn't, what could I do differently? So I don't like having the same situations happening that I want to prevent. But it's also like how much emphasis do you want to put into one day versus all the data we have from months and months of training in terms of what direction you're going? Like I was, I'm working with a guy right now who, he's, his training's been going pretty consistently good from, like, improving in the metrics of, like, his pace at certain intensities and things like that. And then he got to a race earlier in the year and he, we think he maybe was under the weather. He didn't have any clear symptoms other than his heart rate seemed to be like ten beats higher. just kind of across the race, like the hours leading into the race. And there wasn't anything compelling, like, oh, I have a splitting headache or I've got a sinus infection or something that would suggest he was ill other than the heart rate. So, you know, he finished the race. The race went well, but it was below his expectations. So at the end of that we're like, well, did we do something wrong in training? Did we execute the race improperly? Were you just unlucky and you had some non symptomatic illness that was probably bringing you back a little bit. So you know we stuck to what we have. What we actually learned from the totality of things made the right decisions between those races. Next one. And then he went and crushed a goal at his next hundred mile race. So, you know, it was like one of those things where it's like we could have thrown everything out and said, okay, that wasn't a success. yeah, you finished, but we wanted you to maybe finish a little bit faster. We need to do things completely different, when in reality, it was like, we just want to keep continuing on the path of progress that we had been doing the prior six months, and then take another swing down the road and you'll get the results eventually. And that's so much of it to where, like you said, it is, it is hard to execute a race, right? So you're going to have bad races on good fitness. You're going to have good races on fitness you thought was maybe worse than it needed to be and everything in between. so yeah, keeping keeping your eye on kind of like everything is usually usually the way to go with that. Yeah. No, I think ultrarunning is interesting and that it's I'd say it's like one of the few sports where it's very normal for you to do participate in an activity that is not ideal for your body shape or type or whatever. So for instance, like in cycling, you know, if you're a climber, generally speaking, there are very few outliers. You can be like a skinny, very short person or whatever, and you're just going to climb up these mountains. But like, I'm almost £200 and I run mountain races, like, yeah, generally if I were in, I don't know, I'm trying to think another sport that like that. Well, if you look at Golden Trail, you know, those people are not there's no big muscle people going up that race. It's like very, very svelte people. And so yeah, it's like so I you know, it's you know, if you think of the physics of it and if gravity and all that, then it's like, oh, you didn't finish a 200 or 100 mile mountain race. Wow. Big surprise. Like shocker. I mean, I'm kind of doing things that are not like I would be better suited to flatter races. Like that would be more my wheelhouse. But I'm like, I want to do this thing that is not ideal for me. And so it's funny when it's like, people are shocked that. yeah. That you didn't finish or are you timed out or whatever? I'm like, yeah, it got really hot. And also when you're bigger, you know, if you have more muscles, that's more heat. And so it's like, yeah, it's just it's, you know, it's compounding. I'm hauling all this humanity up and down the mountain. I'm also whatever, you know, it's also getting hot. and so there's all those sorts of things and you just have to be willing to do that. And it's fun. I think it's the fun part of it too, is like that, you know, you share the stories of, I didn't have any bad stories. I wasn't like doing barfi crazy stuff or, you know what I mean? Sometimes those are the funnest stories. And ultrarunning. I was like, oh, tell me about that time. You know, but you get a good video of it too. yeah. Like James Wilkins. Remember that one? He's running down the road. And then, I think it's hard luck, wasn't it? I think so, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Or was recording it. He was like he was like, oh there you go folks. He was like, There's Andy Wilkins. One word review of the Hardrock course. It was like right up the park. Oh man. Oh, this is like Rock Horton or somebody was filming him, but yeah, yeah, yeah. Nowadays you're guaranteed to get caught on camera. Yeah, yeah, I can't imagine I haven't done I haven't ran a big hype area like Black Canyon or or have leaner or any of that stuff. So I luckily I've, I've not gotten into that yet. Of course I wouldn't care. Whatever. I like hamming it up. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, Scott, I'm excited to kind of have you on board and, you know, hopefully there'll be some listeners here who are like, hey, that guy sounds like he resonates with me. I'm going to work with him and tackle their next goal because it's going to be fun to see. You kind of actually be able to put some of the stuff that you've put so much time and energy into learning over the years, into practice with somebody else. but yeah. Was there anything else you wanted to chat about? No, no, I think that's it. Yeah. Does that matter? Yeah. I mean, I'm excited. yeah. Just hit me up, you know, you can you can go on Zach Butters his coaching page and then scroll down and there's link there and, yeah, just, hit me up and we can talk and see if it's a good fit and then, get you going towards your own stories. Right on. And where can people find you on socials and your podcast and all that stuff, too? Yeah, it's all of my social. Or like, Instagram is probably the best one. The Scotts. so t h e Scott's y and then let's see. Oh and then extra tomorrow's podcast so it's extra tomorrow's dot com. So it's about trail and ultrarunning. You'll see we have some old schoolers there. We'll have to get you there sometime. Yeah. And then so but I've got some old schoolers on there like, you know, Tim Sweet Meyer and Pam Smith, Megan Canfield, all kinds of, Lisa Howard was on there. Yeah, yeah, you're Adam Peterman. One was a lot of fun to listen to, too. I thought that was a really fun one because you guys dove into some cool stuff and kind of unpack some of his, his injury issues and things like that that he had had. And thankfully now he's back up and running. But yeah, yeah. Good stuff. Christina Christina Patterson is another really good one. If you're going towards one of the first ones, she's a coach here in town. I think she might have moved, but she, an amazing runner and a legend on her own. And she's also, like, coaches, smokejumpers and stuff like that. So. And she herself was a smokejumper, like, she's like about £100. So I think she had to gain like £25 to make the weight, or something like that. Like, because you're jumping out of an airplane with like £100 of gear on and then going and fighting a fire hand by, you know, by hand. So it's like, that's so hardcore, so hardcore anyways. That's a good one too. Christina Patterson cpat. But yeah, stuff. Well, I'll definitely link that stuff in the show notes too. So listeners, if you want to go follow Scott or check out extra tomatoes, you'll be able to grab those on the show notes pretty easily. but yeah, thanks a bunch for taking some time to chat. Thank you.