Episode 415: Tara Dower - Outright Appalachian Trail Record
Tara Dower is an ultramarathon athlete who recently broke the record for the ultra running fastest traverse of the full Appalachian Trail (AT) outright. No man or women has covered the distance faster. The AT is 2,197.4 miles over unforgiving terrain. Tara covered it in 40 days 18 hours 05 minutes, which is the equivalent of approximately two marathons per day. Tara also holds the Women's supported FKT on the Colorado Trail (489 miles). Tara is also a highly competitive ultra runner with wins at Run Rabbit Run 100, Umstead 100, Hellbender 100 to name a few. Check out Tara’s social, website and YouTube channel below.
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Timestamps:
00:00:00 Introduction to the Human Performance Outliers Podcast
00:09:25 The Power of Community Support in Ultra Running
00:18:26 Discovering a Passion for Sports
00:27:38 Future Ultramarathon Goals
00:36:57 Challenges of Remote Ultra-Endurance Events
00:46:21 Introduction to Trail Running and Ultra Marathons
00:55:01 Nutrition Strategy for Ultra Endurance
01:04:26 Exploring the Appalachian Trail Profiles
01:13:48 Life on the Appalachian Trail versus Life Comforts
01:22:43 Show Sponsor Links and Discounts
Episode Transcript:
How are you feeling? I mean, you're getting over a month out now, right? yeah. yeah. And a little bit. It's like five weeks. It's almost five weeks, so. yeah. Well, no, sorry. Got seven weeks, and then it's going to be eight weeks. So that's two months. Okay. Yeah, it's, it's wild because I had six weeks last weekend, and that was like, big for me because it took just under six weeks to set the record. And it's like, I don't know. It's just like, wow, I had six, six weeks of recovery and it just flew by. It's like the weeks on the trail just crawl. Just absolutely crawl. Yeah, I can't, I mean, I can't imagine what it's like. I haven't done anything nearly that long, but it's like I've had quite a few people actually come on the podcast in the past to talk about different long hauls from like, transcon experiences. I've had a Christian on a few times. Who's done the southbound Appalachian Trail? and yeah, like, it's just such an interesting kind of world within ultrarunning that I think gets a lot more attention now than it did probably a few years ago, but kind of like the rest of the sport's just growing so fast. And then, you know, just kind of getting an idea of like where these different disciplines kind of fit within, like the scheme of this, like umbrella we call ultrarunning is just kind of funny to me because we're not quite big enough probably to differentiate a ton, but we're also big enough where like, we have someone like you who can win a competitive hundred miler but also go in crush, an outright record on the Appalachian Trail. It's still something that's out there and really fun to see. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I hear people talking about like, oh, this is like the ultra performance of the year. And I'm pretty sure I mean, if we're talking about, like, the specific people that like, you know, you can, I guess consider it ultra among individuals. But then like, I think ultra running magazines are what I'm thinking about. I think they take FCS out of consideration for that. but I mean, it doesn't matter either way for me. I mean, it's just it was more of a I mean, it's more than just getting like performance of the year or whatever. It's just a thing I've wanted to do forever. Yeah. And I want to get in kind of like the drive behind picking a route like that. but yeah, like you said, I think, I mean, I think it's. I can't imagine it's not the fastest known time of the year at the very least, which I know ultrarunning magazine does have a category for that. But yeah, you know, that's a good question. I'm not sure how they weigh that in. I think you're right about that. They don't look at facts as like performance of the years. They've got a separate category. But I wonder if it would count towards, like if you were to have like a bunch of good races in the year and one of them be in fact, does that count towards like the outright ranking of the year for that one? I imagine it would. No, it's actually I remember last year for like, ultrarunner of the year, like the different, you know, how many ten people I guess it is. You know, the consideration isn't facts. because I did the Colorado Trail last year and set, you know, did a couple other races and they specifically said in this like little bio like, Tara also said Colorado Trail Fkt, but this was not in the consideration for like ultrarunner of the year. any of those considerations. So I mean, yeah, I don't, I don't know, I don't know really why that is, but I mean, I don't it doesn't really matter to me. Yeah. You know, I think it's probably something that just needs to change over time because I could see like a long time ago that being something to maybe not include because it's kind of unsanctioned. Not not that. I mean, there's plenty of unsanctioned aspects to ultrarunning in general, but like, I guess fkt are probably a step further along that line. But now with the level of tracking they require for you to submit, because I'm sure you had to like, produce GPX files and pictures and all sorts of stuff to confirm that it was done, witnesses and all that stuff. So like now I think like, it's probably just as likely to be something where you can kind of ratify with, with whatever like, level of strictness we would see at most ultramarathons anyway. So at that point, like with how much attention acts are getting and, and maybe it's a post pandemic thing now that like, people are just more interested in them because that was like a lot of what people had options to at that point in time. And maybe we need to reconsider what we can, what we put in because I would I just can't imagine sitting there if I were a voter and like looking at kind of like what people are doing and then have someone like yourself on there with this type of a performance and thinking like, I'm just going to ignore that in terms of like how it like especially because like when you think about it like, and this is always like a fun way to kind of look at these things in general. You're out there for 40 days. So like you were on that trail for nearly 10% of the year. Oh, well, I didn't think about it like that. Yeah. Yeah. When 2024 ends, like one out of every ten, your days were spent during that project. So it's like, it's pretty wild to think of just the dedication and everything, but yeah. but yeah, I mean, when you just look at the wild. Yeah. I mean, you just look at the numbers in general. I like to put a post up on this just because people don't always, I think, appreciate these things when they just see the headline of it at first, especially if they're not kind of engaging with the sport to the level of like, you or myself. But, I mean, the Appalachian Trail is 2,197.4 miles. It's got 464,500ft of elevation change, crosses 14 states, and the terrain is anything but forgiving. And you did all that in 40 days, 18 hours and five minutes, which is nearly 55 miles per day. Was I just like, does that ever sink in? I wonder if I don't know. Oh man. Yeah. Like that's a great question. I don't think it's quite sunk in. And I don't know if anything ever sinks in. For me it's just like I don't really I don't really know honestly. I just kind of like doing the thing. And then I think I'm, I'm less of a numbers person than most people. Like, one of my mentors, Warren Doyle, just I just checked this document he made for me with, like, miles per hour, like, on any given day, he had, like, start times. End times, like all this data and talking about, like, how far I was behind Carl at this point. You know, it's a lot of data. And, like, I don't know why, but it's just like, I've never been kind of a data person, I think, like, I think. I think it's really cool. but I guess, like, I guess the thing when I think about, like, the performance, I'm really impressed by, like, the team, how the team came together and how everyone just had a job and it just effortlessly, like, worked. Everyone just was so on board with the fact the entire community, like, I've got a couple a couple communities I'm a part of. So I like the through hiking community, and like hiker trash involved with that. and that's an endearing name. They like to be called hiker trash. And, I've got like, ultra runners and like, ultra marathoners like JP came out. and then I just have the support from, like, really good friends and family. and I think that was like the most impressive thing to have people just come out and just be so pumped to help out with this thing. so when I look back at them like that was just like an incredible, like, community event, I'm just always so amazed with these facts I'm doing where people are just so willing to, like, give everything and help. And I'm just very honored to be surrounded by a lot of great people. Yeah, the ultrarunning community in general, it's like they view it as the front row seats of like the NBA finals or something like that. To some degree, I think where it's like they love the idea of being able to be there and helping out with it, because it's like it's being part of something really cool. I mean, it's kind of got like a bunch of different combinations. It's got that kind of fulfillment of knowing, okay, I did something nice for someone else, and in a lot of cases, they probably have had someone else do something like that for them, whether it be like crewing for them or pacing for them at a race. So there's sort of like this, like inner community exchange going on where it's like passing that forward because I'm sure, like, I know for a fact that you're out there helping all sorts of other runners too. So, you know, when people see that, I think they're like, well, she'd be a great person to help out because she's always doing it for other people, too. And when you can keep that kind of loop feeding into itself, I think it's, you know, a pretty impressive scenario. And to some degree, it's what keeps this thing moving because I had someone ask me before when I said I was having you on be like, ask her how you budget something like that. And I'm like, well, I mean, it's I'm sure it cost a ton of money to do it, even with a bunch of volunteer help, but. Yeah. I mean, like a lot of times these people are willing to spend a lot of time and energy to help out with these things. And they're typically not getting a paycheck at the back end for that in any meaningful way. So yeah, it is something where I think, like without that you can't do these half the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And a lot of those people I was just looking at how much I actually spent because I just calculated all of it when I was on the FCT. And it's a really exciting number. I think people assume that you have to like what I'm trying to find out. I sent it to like, a couple people. I think people assume that you need to like, spend so much money to do these kinds of things. and you do? Yeah. It is necessary for sure. but I think you can also do it somewhat on a budget if you're willing to, like, stay on trail. a lot. So I only spent one night in a hotel against my will because a cop was being a little. You know, I was just a little scared. Yeah. He's just like, he's just saying some things and mansplaining and, you know, making a rascal nervous. But I budgeted $15,000 for the trail, and I ended up spending $4,488.57. And that's for my Durango. My mom was driving the Durango, so gas for the Durango. And then I have a camper van. And so it was gas for the camper van and then food for pretty much everybody. yeah, it was it it was everything. I'm so surprised by that number. I was like, there's no way, there's no way, there's there's no way. I only spent nearly $5,000 on that record. But I added up everything. Groceries for everyone. yeah. It's pretty pretty incredible. That is interesting to hear because I think, like a lot of times people think like the deterrent to something like that is going to be the price tag and and to some degree it still probably is, but more so than that may be just like the time away as well, where, you know, like we were talking about before, you're out there for 40 days and then there's pre and post kind of like preparation and recovery before you're probably, you know, able to do anything other than just relax afterwards. So you know you're looking at almost probably two months of just alright. Pretty much everything else I would be doing otherwise needs to be put on pause for this block of time. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah I mean I didn't, I didn't factor in all of those expensive things. But I also have an Airbnb that me and rascal and my mom stayed at prior to getting on the trail and just waiting for the perfect weather window to get on the trail. So that was just like only on trail expenses. But you're right. Like, there is like, you know, a phone bill, insurance that you have to pay during that time. Like there's all these other bills on top of just like the FCT. And, you know, we talk about that with hiking budgets that people consider okay, so it's two miles to or sorry, $2. What is it? No, it's $2 a mile. That's what people have been saying for a while to budget for the Appalachian Trail. so that's like the general budget, but then, people don't take into consideration like you're also going to have to, you know, pay your mortgage and insurance and, you know, any phone bills, on top of that, Spotify. so, yeah, there's definitely extra expenses. And then when I hiked, actually, I always tell people to just like, you know, budget as much as you can because when I got to the finish at Abol Bridge, I only had one resupply left in 2019 when I was just through hiking. And we actually ran out of money at the last resupply point, and we still had to get home somehow. so we had to figure that out. But yeah, it's just, budgeting for these things is, A special consideration. And it's actually now I think about it, I think I spent around think I spent around like, oh man, how much was it? Was it like 4000 just for like my through hike on the Appalachian Trail. So it's funny that I spent just over that. And that was in 2019. You know obviously there's been some inflation since then. Yeah. Right. But so you know with inflation it was actually cheaper for you to break the record than it was just to hike it. Which I guess going fast maybe helps with that. You're not out there as long because days end up becoming the expense point probably to some degree. Yeah. Yeah. yeah. I mean I want to get into a little bit about just the kind of lifestyle that led you to doing this, because I think with the question when I ask, just like, does it ever sink in? Sometimes I think with stuff like this, it's sort of, it's sort of like a process that is so long that you just normalize small things along the way until eventually you find yourself where you did, you know, taking on a project like this and then completing it in record time. And it's like you look back at it and you're just like, you almost lose track of everything that I actually went into that. But if you could actually go back and just start kind of itemizing everything you've done from like, whatever got you interested into this sort of stuff in the first place, and then look at everything, it could be like just just this massive amount of like essentially preparation and dedication and focus and everything that make essentially who makes you who you are because who you are is, in my opinion, like a huge portion of like what actually allows you to be able to mentally kind of get through something like this. So I'm curious, like when you were a kid, were you pretty active in sports and things like that, or what was your lifestyle like when you were growing up? Yeah. My parents got me and my brother hiking and camping a lot when we were together. I grew up in New Jersey and then moved to North Carolina when I was five, when my parents moved us to North Carolina and both in New Jersey and in North Carolina, we got really into the outdoors and got into camping and hiking. And then I was really, really into sports. Sports just made sense to me. school, like I just had I struggled a lot in school, but sports just made sense. Like athletics. and. Yeah, so I played soccer, and that's kind of where I developed the endurance side, because I was in midfield. Nobody wants to be midfield in soccer because you're running back from defense to forward and back and forth the entire game. And so I think like when I was younger, I just developed endurance. And then when I finally got to track in middle school, they threw me in the mile and I was just there to hang out with my friends. But, you know, I got to running and I was really good at the mile and then went on to cross country and high school and was like, pretty okay at that. Didn't go to college for any sort of running. But I did play rugby in college. So I've always had some sort of athletic endeavor that I'm doing. I mean, I can't imagine my life without an athletic goal on the horizon. I've never had a I've never had a period in my life where I have not had a goal in the horizon, which, you know, when I get to that point in life, that might be a little scary, but I guess we'll see when I get there. Yeah, well, maybe you won't have that point in life. Oh, I hope. Sounds like maybe that's just a fixture. Yeah. You know, I find, like, my experience is always sort of been like, I'll have phases of my life where I'll be very attached to a very specific thing I'm setting goals to. And then I'll give it that thought experiment of just, oh, well, what will I ever do when I can't do this anymore? Or what will I ever do when I'm not good at this anymore, to the degree that I am now? And as I get older that I always find like, oh, you know what? It's not necessarily the activity that I'm attaching this like drive and like goal setting type mindset to it's just having something to attach it to and it just kind of like elicits, I think, a little bit of like an incentive to be curious about, you know, what is exciting you so that when you do get to a point where maybe you don't want to do 40 days through hiking fast pack type stuff, you have like something else to maybe tie that tie that kind of passion to. And I think, like, you know, someone like yourself who's from, from my vantage point, really likes a variety of different activities. You're probably really good at finding those things. And even though it maybe isn't something you see now, you'll probably find it when it's ready to be found. Yeah, yeah, I've thought about that a lot. Like, you know, when that point comes, maybe hopefully it never comes where I won't, you know, won't be doing what I'm doing or athletic endeavors like what would it be at that point? And I'm just like, it's just. I'm very goal oriented, very competitive, and I think whatever it is, it's going to just be something that's like a competition. Maybe I'll get into bridge or something and get really good at bridge again like the old folks. Yeah. Yeah. So when you were doing cross-country and track in high school and then you, you switched to rugby in college, were you doing any sort of running at that point still, or was it just all in on rugby? Yeah, it was all in rugby. I lost my sprinting. I did a lot of sprinting exercises and was really, really fast in rugby. I was super quick and, you know, granted a lot of the women that I was against, who was who, I was like running against, they were, you know, half of them were like back in the pack. so, you know, maybe endurance or just sprinting wasn't their specialty. But, you know, I think, I mean, in our region, I was one of the fastest runners. And then there was Naia, who I played against, who was faster than me and terrifying. She actually plays for the Olympic sevens team. And she I remember races or sorry, I remember games like a week prior to the game we had against USC is who she was like, with. I was sweating, so nervous to play against her because she would do what they did, I was fullback, they would kick the ball. They loft it really, really high. The rest of the team was average. But Naia was incredible. So they loft this ball so high and she I'm the fullback so I'm the one waiting for the ball. Come down to my arms. That's all you have to do. You just wait there. And Naia would sprint from the other side of the field. And as soon as the ball touched my arms, she would just dump tackle me so hard. Just like. All of her force into me. And I was like, that's just how it goes. It's so violent. Yeah, but I think that I think rugby really contributed a lot to that mental toughness. Like, I grew up with a brother, and an older brother who was pretty intense and, you know, not quite a bully, but, I mean, he just retired as a drill sergeant. So if that tells you anything about who he is as a person. So I think it was my brother and my family who instilled this tough mentality, but also rugby. It's like, well, just cut dump tackles. I gotta keep going and I hurt so badly, but might as well just keep going. I loved playing rugby though, and I've gotten a couple offers from friends from ECU on like, other teams, like adult teams who'd like, you should come out and like, no, I would, I would break so easily these days. I'm not used to that rugby mindset anymore. Yeah. It's so interesting to hear you kind of talk about some of that stuff, because it's like you have such a pretty diverse, like set of kind of sports backgrounds. And I think it maybe is just a testament to when you get into, especially these really long ultramarathons. So much of it's about just like both durability, being able to actually kind of like pick or having like being able to respond to a wide range of challenges. It's like, you know, like someone who makes a great cross country runner typically doesn't make a great rugby player, vice versa. And I mean, you've got a few different things in there that are just almost like in contrast to one another, to the degree where it just seems like that maybe is a strength of yours where like you're out there on the Appalachian Trail and you're presented with something that, that is typically going to be a little bit of a shocker to someone else where you might just look at it as like, oh, well, this is just something different that I have to navigate. But I've done that a bunch of times in the past through a variety of different things. So I know how to do this, and I wonder how much that's intuitive to you versus you consciously thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah. Those are great points. I think that's, that's a, that's a good point. And you know I don't want to speak for other ultra runners or ultra marathoners. like all I know is my own experience. but I definitely find myself getting into certain situations and races and. just pulling from different experiences, like you said. Like in running. Oh, sorry. In rugby or in soccer or just like in my hiking experience as well. I pull from those experiences and like from that, I know, like it's going to be okay. And, I just kind of like to move on from there. I think that's the thing with hiking. That's why a lot of people who come from hiking make really good ultra runners like Jeff Meyer. oh. Who else? I have a whole list of them, but a lot of three hikers transition. It's either climbing, rock climbing, or it's transitioning to ultramarathons. And a lot of them make really good ultramarathons. marathoners, because they want to have really good base fitness. but they also have this mentality. It's like, no one's going to come out here and help me. Like, I don't have anyone waiting for me or I'm not. I'm not going to have an aid station. I have to make it to the next road crossing. I might have just pooped my pants and I have no food left, but you just gotta keep going. and I don't want to speak for all ultra marathoners. I think, like a lot of them, they do have that natural, innate mental toughness. But I think there's like a little added bonus when you hiked or, you know, played a sport like rugby is just you can pull from more experiences to know, like you can continue on. Yeah. I actually think that's one of the more exciting things about some of these 200 mile races now is it is sort of like this in-between of what we've had traditionally, at least in the modern era, considered like the kind of racing side of ultramarathon and the through hiking, where I think there's like some, some strengths and weaknesses that kind of meet in the middle with those. And you can kind of see that kind of convergence as more people kind of get into those events, too. And I'd be curious if you've got your eyes on any of the 200 milers in the future. Oh yeah, for sure. I would love to do Kokoda. That's at the top of my list. and I actually, you know, Jamal asked me if I wanted to do it for 20, 25. And I think I have different goals for 2025. If my body allows me to race in 2025, I foresee myself racing, even if I'm not okay. But you know, I have these separate goals, but I think like Kokoda in 26 might be a goal. Well, yeah. Yeah. No, I think it'd be fun to see that. I mean, you've had success at, like, races like Run Rabbit Run and then all the way to, the Appalachian Trail stuff. So it's like, it seems like it would be a good, a good one for you to do it. Must that sometimes almost feel like there's too much to pick from, I would imagine where, like, there's so many things you want to do, but then at the end of the day, if you want to do them at a high level, you kind of have to give them their own time. And there's only so much of that. But yeah, how did that change at all after I guess you've done, I mean, you've had the Colorado Trail and stuff already, so it's not like it was unfamiliar to you, but does like knowing how good you are at the Appalachian Trail type of stuff. Does that kind of steer you in a different direction as to what you maybe thought you would be doing in the next couple of years prior to the project? Yeah, it definitely makes me want to go after some more stout facts. Like, I know I've been a big advocate for women just going after this fkt. because I know women can hold these overall acts just after. I'm sure you know a lot about this. I'm not really sure where I read it, but, you know, after 100 miles, women, you know, start to compete, you know, as a distance greater than women, you know, the gender differences start to even out. and so that's I, I knew that, but, like, going into the Appalachian Trail, like, I wasn't completely 100% positive. It would work out in my favor, you know? And then I finished and it just was like, whoa, it can happen. And so I think that encouragement inspired me to maybe go after some other facts and go over, go after, like the overall facts. so that changed that. But I think, you know, on the Appalachian Trail, I just moved so slow. I moved so slow that I was like, I need to get my speed back. So I'm really itching next year to, like, do some really fast stuff. I really miss going quickly. Yeah, I like that. I think it's just I think it's almost necessary for, like, a long career, too, because, you know, you finish something like the Appalachian Trail. It's so skewed so far to that end of the spectrum, where your weaknesses in the moment are going to be kind of that opposite end. And I mean, we talk about short ultras as being kind of quick and fast, but, you know, we're kind of always dealing with the slow end of the spectrum to some degree. But yeah, I mean, like your turnover for a course like Javelina or something like that would be something you'd want to be doing a little bit of different training, I would imagine. So I like when people say, okay, I'm going to go back and do something a little bit different so that I kind of keep that bit of balance in there. And I think that's what not only keeps the other stuff exciting because you're giving yourself a break from it, but it keeps everything a little more well-rounded. So you don't get yourself kind of too pigeonholed kind of physically into one type of movement. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean through hiking or sorry. Yeah. Through hiking but also fkt, I mean you're just, you're moving at a consistent pace that's sustainable. And so that's oftentimes times like for me, I was going uphill. If it was quick, maybe, maybe 17, 17 minute miles. But most of the time it was like 20, 22 and then downhills. I could get it to like anywhere from like 15 to like ten. Sometimes nine nine was really exciting. But yeah, it's just really slow and consistent. That's for me. That's what worked for me. But I'm really looking forward to pushing myself. I think I feel very comfortable and like long, long endurance stuff, like just pushing my limits, sleep deprivation, like just going forever. I think I feel pretty comfortable with that stuff, but something I'm uncomfortable with that I kind of want to push myself to do is very speedy, fast, like, you know, Black Canyon's always fast and, doing, you know, have Olina. Those are exciting races because it pushes me personally out of my comfort zone. And you have to go somewhere. I talk about this all the time with the Appalachian Trail. How it's like, Yet. We're pushing our limits and it's really exciting to push that limit. but it's a different limit when you're doing these, like faster races. You really have to have a good mentality. I feel like my mentality when it comes to, like, going fast isn't as strong as it would be if I was like, going slow and for, you know, 40 days. Yeah, yeah. No, it sounds like you, you really like to kind of go after the thing that kind of scares you a little bit. And, you know, maybe the Appalachian Trail doesn't scare you quite as much anymore after. Well, it's in the rearview moon at the moment anyway, unless you want to do it again. But, you know, it's something where it's kind of objectively a strength of yours after what you did there. So now looking at like, okay, well, what can I do that's going to kind of reignite that fear of, well, maybe, maybe I, I'm taking a risk here. I don't know yet. And figuring it out. yeah. Yeah I, I, I mean, I've done Black Canyon two years and two years in a row and it was really hard the first year and the second year, I've kind of understood the course a little better. And it's just like, you know, you gotta just keep showing up and doing those hard things and like pushing. I think that's why everyone comes to like ultras in the first place. No one comes to an ultra, to their first ultra and things like, wow, this is going to be so easy. We come to it because it's like, this is going to be hard and it's going to be sustained, and let's see what I'm made out of. So I think it's just, you know, trying to do more of that for myself. Just keep pushing myself. Yeah, yeah. No, I think you're right. I think that's the draw. I think that might be why some people just continuously try to go up in distance too, because it's like, okay, I kind of checked that one off. And now let's try to see what this next one is like so it can get. I mean, that's how you wind up on the Appalachian Trail for 40 days, I guess. Yeah. It's like, all right, what's next? There is a trail. There is the American Discovery Trail, I think it's called, but it goes just like, you know, the United States map, but it just does this like big, essentially this big rectangle around the United States. I want to say somebody's gonna correct me, but this is just off the top of my head with very little knowledge of the American Discovery Trail. But I believe this seems like too much. 1500 miles. I think it's 1500. Let me look it up real quick. I could see that. Yeah, I could see that. Because if you think of like a transcon is 3000 miles and then I mean the Appalachian Trail and the Pacific Crest Trail essentially north to south. So you're looking at a couple thousand for each of those. So then you add in all the little tangents and dips and curves around what that trail probably does. I mean, you're probably getting well north of 10,000. I would think so, yeah, I yeah, I didn't realize there was actually a path there. Yeah. The American Discovery Trail is actually different. One that I'm thinking of is 6800. But I'm trying to think of what. There is one that just uses it. It uses the Continental Divide trail. It goes down just like a big rectangle. So we can always go further. There's always yeah. You can always go further if you need to. Yeah. I always think of Pete Castle. Nick's run when he went from the furthest, most tip of Alaska down to the Florida Keys. I guess it's the longest, the longest road in, like, a road route you can take. Like, if you're going to just get in a car and drive, it's the longest you can go from one point in the US to another. It's like, I think it's like 5000, 5200 miles, something like that. But he averaged 55 miles a day for 98 days on that one. It was all self-supported. He pushed like a stroller, which is just insane to me. It's like I still can't wrap my head around that one. That's just like just the number of things that could go wrong. Yeah, especially with the stroller. Like the mechanics there. Like being in the middle of like, Alaska backcountry. I don't know if it's in the backcountry, but man, that I, I don't know about that one. Self-supported. That's wild. Yeah. And when you think about it too, it's like there I remember him talking about this where it's like, since it's self-supported and you are in some fairly remote areas, it's not like you can just go, okay, I'm gonna do 55 miles every day and just rinse and repeat there like some days where it's like, well, I can really only go 30 miles realistically, because if I, if I keep going from here, I'm going to end up in a spot where, like, I have to go like 100 miles the next day. So you have to like, chunk it in a way that makes sense logistically. And so it's really kind of skewed as to how much he ended up doing at any one given day. But yeah, that's one where I just think, like, I just, I don't know, it's one of those that kind of blows my mind a little bit. Yeah, that is wild. But that one's out there for you if you ever want to. I want to get on the roads with the stroller, I guess. I don't think anyone else has done it that I'm aware of anyway, but. So Pete might stand alone on that one for a while. Yeah. To kind of back to what we were talking about before, where you were doing kind of rugby and then was so the next step was getting into ultramarathons. What was your kind of introduction to that? Yeah, I through hike the trail tried to through hike in 2017 the Appalachian Trail and had a panic attack 80 miles in and had to get off and took two years to like, you know understand my anxiety and understand, you know, my motivations, why I was going out there in the first place and went back in 2019 and through hiked the entire trail five months in ten days and then, you know, really wanted to keep up with the trail adventures. But I knew, like, I had to make money so I couldn't be out there for like, these long periods of time. at least from what I thought back then, I was working as a backpacking guide and at a bunkhouse for Jennifer Davis, and, I was inspired by her because she before I beat it, she did hold the women's, supported fkt and, I, I was incredibly inspired by her. So I got on the mountains of C trail, which goes across the state of North Carolina. It's 1175 miles from Kingman Dome in the mountains to Jockey's Ridge, in North Carolina. And I wanted to, you know, see how fast I could do it, because it was also 20, 20. And, you know, it was Covid wasn't super responsible to be going into towns and resupplying. So I did get along like a support crew. And we set this fkt, you know, a little quarantine crew and we set the FCT on the MST. And then, you know, Diane Van Doren who ran for I'm pretty sure it was Diane Van Buren that set the FCT on the MST before me. She was a North Face 100 mile athlete and I was like, oh like she I just beat her record. Maybe I could also do a 100 mile race, like maybe that's a possibility. And so for about a year, a full year, I just trained, I did like a trail marathon in San Diego and, I lived there for a couple months and then did a 50 miler in San Diego as well. and then I think it was October, September or October of 21, I did my first 100 miler and just fell in love with the distance. and that was pretty much my pursuit from, you know, why I was doing ultramarathons was to just get this adventure in and do 100 milers, like, I was my first hundred miler. I did win, and that felt great. But I also had this really neat experience where I ran through the night and, you know, met a lot of really cool people doing the same. You know, aid stations are always fun. You know, your first aid station, like all this food for me. Oh my goodness. Thank you. Everyone's so nice. You know, people are timing my naps. Like, wow, this is so much different than through hiking. But yeah. So I got into 100 milers and was just doing a bunch of them, like back to back to back. and then I started getting to like faster things, and doing more competitive races to see where I sat in the field. and another goal of mine was to do Hardrock. So that was a big pursuit of mine as well, was to do races where I could, like, qualify for that. And so luckily I did that this year. but I still want to go back every single year. I want to be one of those repeat offenders of Hardrock. Yeah, well, now you're in. Right. So now it's a little easier to get back, so just keep replying. You'll probably find yourself on that start line quite a few times over the course of your career if you want to. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. Cool. So like that kind of got you into the trail running side of things I'm kind of curious about like your training, like when you were doing the through hiking stuff. It's just kind of an interesting background because I would imagine that like, like, were you doing a lot of running when you were kind of in the through hiking stuff before the ultramarathons? Was it still kind of part of that training plan for that? And then when you switch to doing some ultras as well, maybe you skew it a little more towards that. I'd be curious about kind of how you structure things with that. Yeah. Before I got into ultras and like before through hiking, I in between 2017 and 2019 when I did have that period of like, you know, discovering my motivations for why I was going for the Appalachian Trail, the through hike. I thought it would be impossible to do like a marathon. So I signed up for like a half to, like, bring myself up to it. And then. So I did a half. I did pretty well, did a marathon, did, like, okay at the marathon. So I was, like, running a lot. I knew that, like, I just knew, like, from cross-country in high school. I just knew how, how much fun I had doing that. You know, I wasn't the best in my state in cross-country, but I really did enjoy the act of moving my body and running. But through hiking. There wasn't really much training after hiking. When I wanted to do the Mountains of Sea Trail, I got really into trail running and I was like, this is incredible to trail run. Like I was so used to doing, like, you know, two miles an hour with a backpack on me on the Appalachian Trail. So when I was trail running, I was like, oh my gosh, I could see so much more of the trail. Just, you know, jogging. I did, you know, I still fall a lot these days, but I mean, if anyone knows, like my track history with, like, falling, like, they would be mortified to know, like I fell 100 times more on when I was just getting into trail running. It was just like, I'm sure a lot of people can understand this, like sentiment. It's just like, so different from road running. I had just been doing road running, you know, little in cross country, obviously, like the trails, but you know, to go to like the Appalachian Trail where I was living and getting that crash course and the trail running, it was so different. And I feel so often and just like every day, I just opened up my palms and my knees are always just so bloody and scabbed, and I was just perpetual, a perpetual scab at that point. but, you know, I did enjoy it a lot. I love the fact that I could go for like two hours and see so much of the trails and then be back in before dinner time, and would have, like, had to be on trail with my backpack for, like, the whole day to be able to see that much. so that's like where that training came in for the mountains to sea trail when I got into Fkt and faster stuff after the through hike. yeah. It was just a lot of adventuring on the trails. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So there was that mix of running for sure in there then. Did you do anything structured with speed work or anything like that or any sort of like kind of pure dazed approach with like different distances and things? Or was it all just like, hey, I feel kind of like, I guess what the sport has maybe kind of termed the Courtney to Walter approach, where I kind of go and I run. When I feel good, I run a little faster. When I don't, I run a little slower. Yeah, I love her approach and I think I connect a lot with her approach because, getting into competitive ultramarathons, like I started out with Carl Meltzer as my coach. And so he is just kind of a no nonsense guy, just like he gives me. The plan was just like, you know, do you know, you know, amount of miles. And it was very much like, if you feel good, run faster. And I really like that. You know, he pushed me a lot to like, you know, get into races and to complete races and do a lot of 100 milers. He's the 100 mile king. So like, that's just natural for Carl to be that way. So I think he and Courtney probably have very similar approaches. and I really liked getting into trail running with him, like when I was getting into the ultramarathon scene, you know, he just helped. There wasn't so much there's so much information to digest. And I'm glad I've, like, had this trickle of information. It hasn't been. I feel like if I got into the sport, I'd be super overwhelmed if I had a coach like Megan Roach at this point. Like, if I had her, I would be overwhelmed, at the beginning of my career. Now I'm coached by Megan because I had Karl for, I think we were together for like two and a half. Three years. And then just this year was my first year with Megan. but if I had started out with her, I probably would have been, oh my gosh, there's so much to know, so much knowledge. I probably would have gotten overwhelmed just knowing myself. and she's a wealth of information. If anyone wants a really knowledgeable, great coach. I mean, Megan's the way to go and Carl's the way to go. It's just personally, at that point in my life, I was like, I don't know if I could have digested all that. All Carl had, you know, we would chat about races and we wouldn't there wouldn't be like time goals. Sometimes there's time goals, but he would just generally be like, you want to eat this much an hour, you know, go out there and you just want to run the downhills and the flats and if you need to hike, you hike. And he was just very encouraging. And, it was good to start out my career with him because I'm not even now I'm not super like, you know, I talked about this like a data person. I'm not, like, big into data. And, it's just hard for me, I guess, like, with, you know, schooling and I wasn't ever, you know, a numbers person or really good at math or school. And so I think it just makes sense to me to just like, go off of feeling more so but yeah. Yeah. So there wasn't an answer to your question. Sorry. Yeah. To answer your question, there wasn't any speed work at first. I think when I did JFK the first time, that's when Carl first liked to put a track workout on my schedule. But again, it wasn't anything, like, insane. Yeah. No, I really like that because I think it kind of maps. What? I'll hear, like, Steve Magnus talk about this a lot, and I think he's got a really interesting perspective because, you know, he was like a world class miler in high school and then just sort of, like, plateaued right away for a variety of different reasons that he'll share if you listen to his stuff. Ever. But like one of the things he says is like, you have to take things kind of at the appropriate level at the right time and use that to progress versus getting way too ahead of yourself. And he looks at it through the lens of like, just like the competitive pressure that you feel as a high schooler on the world stage versus what most high schoolers are dealing with, which is probably city based, maybe in some cases, maybe just their own school. And, I mean, I think about that with my own development with running, where like there was really it really wasn't until like, I was well into ultrarunning that I had any expectations to be like competing with the best. And when I think about it, had I had that expectation when I was in high school, I don't know that I would have responded well to that and responded well to having all the information that would be available to a kid with that level of perspective or that level of like potential. So like for you to say, like, you know, Karl working with you in the beginning, he was able to give you the things that were needed so that you don't find yourself in a really rough spot, like, oh, I'm 40 miles into this ultramarathon. I haven't eaten anything yet. Like you probably needed some level of support around kind of like some of the strategies like there, which he could definitely give you, but you probably didn't need him to be kind of staring over your shoulder telling you to do 400 meter repeats. And, you know, make sure you get up to the top of that hill in this split and kind of just over, like you said, overwhelming you with information. Yeah, yeah. He was, I mean, he was perfect. You know, getting into the sport. and I think, like, I would still love to be coached by him. He even mentored me during the Appalachian Trail. But, like, as we just keep progressing, I think I was just like, I think also, being a lady to having a lady coach, was like, really nice because I was dealing with a lot of. At the beginning of the end of last year. Beginning of this year, I was dealing with a lot of things like, you know, I forgot what they call the triad, the female athlete triad. so I was dealing with syndrome. Yeah. Yeah, I was dealing with, like, some things involved with that. And I was like, okay, this is I really need to, you know, dive a little further into why this is. And, you know, Megan, Megan just has so much knowledge on that, one being a woman. But also, I mean, she studies women. She's, you know, she has her, she's a doctor, and she studies women in sport, and she puts so much time into, like, information gaining, knowledge on that front. So I was just like, I think I need to, like, move towards that, and maybe eventually I'll go back to Carl. But, both of them were just so crucial to, like, my development as an athlete. And now, like, looking back at my training with Carl, I'm like, whoa, that would be really nice. But it is nice to have Megan just like putting this structured training together. Like, today, I have this really structured workout, and it's like, I know that's going to benefit me. It's going to get me fast. Yeah. Yeah. And when you have a real kind of concrete objective where it's like okay I want to get fast again, then sometimes I think it's, yeah it's nice to have someone else that it's at least if for nothing else, someone who you trust that you can kind of bounce those ideas off of where it's like, okay, like help me kind of scaffold what this looks like and then help me respond to what I'm feeling when I go through these different kind of ebbs and flows with, with that sort of an approach, but cool. Awesome. Well, you know, another thing I wanted to ask you about was maybe a little more specific to your project with the Appalachian Trail, and one that I think people naturally kind of gravitate towards, which is food. But, what are you eating out there? I guess is maybe the broad question, but I'm kind of also curious as to like the logistics behind that, because obviously, you probably, you know, when I think of ultrarunning and it's more kind of abbreviated sense of hundred milers and below it's like you have your aid stations, you have what you carry on you, and you can generally kind of be fine with that. But when you're looking at the prospect of going for 40 days. How are you kind of setting that up and making sure you're not getting too far behind on fuel when you know you got to go back out there and hike and run all day again. Yeah. yeah. I think there's a couple factors to that. I had done a lot of research prior to the fact, obviously, like it's way different than an ultramarathon. Like the fueling strategy is way different on the Appalachian Trail than it would be, for an ultramarathon. So I did a lot of research because in 2020, when I was on the mounds of C trail, I didn't know what I was doing. I had the diet of a through hiker, so I was eating like hostess cakes and, you know, really trashy food that wasn't sustaining me. And to this day, that was the hardest thing I've ever done, even though it was way flatter because like, you go through the mountains, but then it's just like the Piedmont and the coastal region is just completely flat. Even though it was easier terrain, my brain just felt like scrambled eggs, like I can process information quickly. my, I had iron deficiency because you could tell my lips and my gums were just like white. It was. I was pale, and did not look okay. And so I really wanted to do a lot of work on my nutrition. and so I had Carl mentoring me, like, he has a successful fkt on the Appalachian Trail. And, you know, he came and gave me a couple guidelines that I wanted to look out for. But something I told my crew prior is like, I want to do a lot of, like, Whole Foods, you know, I want to get my, you know, iron and, you know, fats and proteins. I want to get that mostly from, like, these whole foods. So whatever that takes to get that, you know, whatever it takes, let's do that. but I also from Carl's, Carl's advice, he was like, every, every single stop I had with my crew. So at every single road crossing, he drank a protein shake. And so, on average, I had about 6 to 7 cruise stops a day. And so at those cruise stops, I would drink Ultra Jen by First Endurance and it was 320 calories. It is. Some 20g of protein. bcaas. And it's a lot of carbs. it's just really good stuff in that. So I'd have, you know, 6 or 7 of those during the day, but then I had one at night. So that helped with recovery during the night. but Carl also recommended, you know, in the morning, getting 500 calories for breakfast. You want to do 300 calories a day or, sorry, 300 calories an hour. for the time that you're moving on top of that, you have your protein shakes at every single cruise stop. And then, at dinner time, it's about 1500 calories, and I. So I got on the trail, I gave my crew that information, and, I, I didn't I told them, like, Whole Foods is what I want to focus on, but other than that, I didn't give them anything else because it's really important on these supported facts to just like, you know, if you're able to go fully supported, I mean, support, I mean, you can have as long as you're self-propelled, you can have any type of support. so it was really important for me to, like, have these people on my crew who are really knowledgeable, about nutrition and ultras and just like, how to crew. So there's a lot of aspects with the team. But about day 11, day 11 or day 12, we gained another crew member, Amy and Steve, and they had a camper van and that was her job. She took that job on herself where she was going to be the camp cook. And she kept track of my fats, my proteins, my carbs. She made really great, dense, burritos for me. Like of all varieties. She made little sandwiches really easy for my body to digest. It wasn't, like, too heavy. and so it was really important to have, like, people like that who are solely focused on nutrition. She also fed the crew as well. She'd make, like, group dinners. Excuse me. but with that, with the logistics side of getting that food, like, you know, Amy was making it, but the crew. So I would have had pacers for pretty much 80% of the entire trail, I would say. And, those people carried all my food, carried all the water. They pretty much carried everything. Sometimes I carry my own phone. but I had my tracker. That's the only thing I had on me. And, they kept track of what I needed to eat so they'd hand me a snack every, like, 20 minutes. So I got 100 calories for that, like, 20 minute section. So, Yeah, it was fully supported. And I'm so lucky I said this in the beginning. I'm so lucky to have such a great community around me and people that were so willing to, like, give up their time to help with this fkt. So I view it as a team, a team sport, without them, if I was the one out there making decisions about what I was eating or when I was eating, you know, keeping track of my fats, my proteins, my calories, like, I wouldn't have been. As invested in, the running side of it. And my job on the FCT was just to be the runner. I didn't have to think about what I was eating. When I was eating, I just had to think about moving. And I trusted that my crew was going to make really good meals, and they're going to feed me as well, because oftentimes I also got hand fed, too. I mean, most of the times they're hand feeding me at, you know, breakfast and dinner and then at crew stops. If I had like a moment, they would hand feed me whatever it was, just force feed me. I didn't have any decisions. I had no autonomy out there. They were making all the choices. Yeah, well, I mean, I think that's perfect. It's like. I mean, you've clearly put a lot of thought into this prior to the project starting. I mean, you made sort of like a passion out of this whole hiking thing in the first place. So like, you're just sort of like ability to kind of like kind of know what to do and probably what's a plan for and what are things to actually worry about with things that you don't really need to worry about, that you'll just be like problem solving the way, like then you offload all the real, like, kind of stuff, like what you just mentioned, which I think was a really good explanation of kind of all that goes into it. And not having to think about that and just respond to like, just be like, just tell me what to do. There is a huge cognitive reduction for you there. Where then when you get to that spot where you're just like, I'm ready to break down and cry on this rock in the middle of nowhere, you're able to actually kind of center yourself and keep going for it, because you're not also trying to calculate, okay, did I get enough protein today? Did I get enough calories? And trying to think about that, because you've already kind of planned all that out and then offloaded it to somebody else? I think that's just like such a good idea to do. And, sounds like great people helping you with it, too. Yeah, I think, I think, you're completely right. There's people that, Would be great with facts because they're so fast. And if they had, I mean, I know they have a lot of support. facts are so cool that you could go fully supported. Like, you can't do that in ultramarathons. Like you, most ultramarathons, you cannot have people mule your gear, mule your food. I think if more people got into ultra or sorry, got into fkt like the people who are exclusively doing ultras, they'd be surprised at how well they can really do if they're going fully supported. I mean, that's fully offloading. If you have a good team behind you, you are able to be completely just like, you know, I had to worry about when I'm using the bathroom and also sometimes like, you know, sometimes I do math, for like trail miles, but like a rascal had that stuff already. I was just doing that because I wanted to know when I was going to go to sleep that night. I was trying to, like, do my average pace and figure out, okay, if I have this many miles, like, how long will it take me to get to camp so I can go to sleep earlier? So that's the only reason I did that. But like, all I had to think about was moving forward and that like you said, it would just help, like keep my mind free. And also oftentimes I don't really make the best decisions based on these facts. So having a team doing all the thinking for you, I mean, that's. Going to help the FCT tremendously because you're not doing the skewed math with a tired brain. Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. And I think it's one of the things where another thing that kind of stuck out to me, it almost led me to want to ask about the kind of nutrition side, because I think this probably plays a pretty big part of that is like when I started kind of looking into kind of everything you had, you had done. One thing that was really interesting was the pacing strategy that you employed. I mean, most people, I'm sure would think like there's probably some level of like just break down where you're going slower or you're covering less miles at the end until maybe you get really close and you get kind of this, like finish line syndrome of, all right, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, but you, you, I think by pretty much objectively negative split this even if you look at like, I know going southbound, you have the whites and that's probably the most difficult part of the trail early on. And you're going to cover less miles with the same effort. But it seemed like you were really actually gaining momentum and Something. Putting your bigger days on the back end of this project, which I don't think we see typically with these longer, longer efforts. yeah. I think with these longer efforts, it would be my hope that I could have been ahead in the very beginning . That was the hope that it would be like feeling great and be so far ahead. but I think it's nerve wracking to put so much time and effort into an fkt this long and not want to be ahead in the very beginning, because it's like nerve wracking to, like, be that far behind. it just kind of happened to where we were, I think I just read Warren Doyle's statistic, but I think we were about 120 miles behind at one point. of, you know, the record and that naturally, like you said, like it's going to be harder to go so, Bo, because of the whites and because of southern Maine. So I was already behind because of that. And the trail. It never gets easy, but it just gets, you know, it's not as technical, as difficult as, you know, the northeast. So when I got to Virginia, you know, Connecticut, you know, New Jersey, some of New York, not all of New York, some of Pennsylvania. And then, like when I got to Virginia, I just mean, Maryland as well. I was able to just put down really, really big days just because the trail allowed it. and if you see, like the profile of the Appalachian Mountains, you can kind of see like, you know, the, the whites and, Maine are just like, really, really mountainous. And then you get to like the, you know, Vermont is also very mountainous, but then it starts to like, you know, kind of even out and there's like, you know, more hills, but, you know, there's some mountains in there as well. But then once you get to like, you know, Virginia ish, it starts to get mountainous again. But it's way, different, way different mountains than you would encounter in New Hampshire. So yeah, I think it wasn't by design that I was, you know, chasing like the ghost across Iowa saved the entire fkt. I think it was up until like. Six days. I think it was six days to the end to where, like we were there with him, like I think I was three miles behind in Erwin, Tennessee, which is incredibly close to the beginning of the trail. Or like the end where it ends at Springer. so I don't think it was by design, but it worked out. And it's just another strategy with these facts. I think, like I mentioned, it's so it's so, nerve wracking to put to be that far behind and to like, to put that much time and effort into an fkt and like, maybe it won't work out, but you're going to have to just you're going to have to just keep pushing and see if it's going to work out. I think it's nerve wracking. So it's just another strategy that I don't think a lot of people have employed. I did it by accident, but I think I did a lot of things that were different from other Appalachian Trail factors, such as being behind the entire time and catching up. but also like, what was the other thing that I did differently? Oh, I just lost it, but there's like. Oh, right. I did the 100 miler like a month before the FCT. And I remember a lot of mentors saying that you shouldn't do that. You're going to be wrecked for the trail. And like that would make sense. But I viewed it in this way of like, okay, it's just going to be a really good training run, really good time on feet. and when I get there, hopefully I'll recover enough. it's not like you're moving super fast on the At anyways, but that's just another different thing I did. Like, I, I had a lot of mentors saying you want to like not race. I think it was like 2 to 3 months ago. So you're just like 100%. But as soon as you get on the trail, you're like, you're not going to be 100%, you're not going to be 100% like from the get go, you know, first day you're pretty much working with like 80%. And then it just keeps dwindling from there. Yeah, pretty much everyone I've talked to that's done like these, like, not just I hesitate to call them multi-day because it's just so beyond multi-day. It's like multi-week where they kind of talk about this like scenario where you sort of have this like gradual degradation over the first few days and you it gets easy to kind of get into your head there and think like if it keeps going down at this rate, I don't know if I can. There's no way I can tolerate this whole thing. And then eventually sort of that, that level of discomfort sort of bottoms out. And then you sort of normalize and you're just you're dealing with like this, like subpar but not terrible sensation for the duration of the, the, the project. So then it's about, can I manage this relatively poor feeling for a long period of time versus it continually getting worse and worse and worse entirely throughout? And if you kind of get caught up in the emotions of that kind of continual downgrade in those early days, you can maybe kind of sabotage your own, your own project really early on. In that case. So is that kind of your experience too, with these longer things where you had that sensation? Yeah, I actually talked about this before, but I enjoy multi-week. I've found out that I enjoy multi-week over multi-day because like you said, like, it's just you feel like your body is just breaking down so quickly in those first couple days. And it takes like a probably for me, it took like two weeks to finally feel like I am on. I'm on a roll right now. I feel pretty good. And at one point in Connecticut, when it's super flat, I thought, oh, this is easy. It's not easy. It wasn't easy. It was just for a moment. But yeah, it was like the multi-week your body is so odd that your body gets used to the sensations of like waking up at 330 or whatever time and then going to sleep, but you're doing 17.5 hours of movement, and it's so strange to say, like, your body just gets so used to that. And, you know, at times there is like, you know, for me there was muscle tightness. like, I had some hamstring tightness in the Shenandoah and, you know, some, like, you know, knee pain, but that, I mean, it went way, with like the, the inclusion of, like, more stretching at the end of the night, which was, I mean, just insane. I'm always amazed at how stretching just takes care of so many issues. and that's, you know, on the trail that was it was a testament to that. But yeah. So I almost enjoy the view, like looking at the Colorado Trail. That was eight days and I just was so broken down by the end of it. but if I had gone like maybe if I had done, you know, yo yo, maybe I would have felt okay by the end of that effort. but I do enjoy the multi-week. It's just your body just getting used to it. And they say in the through hiking community, it's you're getting your trail legs. And by the time you get your trail legs, you're like, you're like, off to the races. Awesome. Yeah, I wonder too, just like with how detailed your nutrition approach was, how much of that fed into the kind of you being able to sustain, just like those bigger days near the end? I know, like, I think Karl may be talked about this when he did it, because another topic I've had kind of come up when I've talked to people doing transcon and Appalachian Trail type stuff is like the folks that are able to do it in, like, you're probably going to lose some weight almost no matter what. But if you can kind of really limit that to maybe like a few pounds versus like, oh, I lost £20, the people that could maintain weight the best tended to feel better at the end and then also bounce back a lot quicker after. and I want to say it was Dean Karnazes who told me because he's done transcon a few times and he said one time he lost a bunch of weight and another time he basically maintained and he said like it was just night and day difference. Or it might have been raised to have. Who told me that? and he's like, yeah, it's just like such a like it's a lot of it's in the recovery. So your 2025 season may depend on how well you were able to kind of eat and stay on top of that stuff during this project because you'll probably feel like you're back. Your energies are back a little quicker. Yeah. I mean, it's it's, we're almost two months out or nearly five weeks out from, sorry, not five, seven, seven weeks out from the fact. And I'm like, I did a pretty good run yesterday. I felt really good. My body feels good. Like I do get some, like muscle tightness. And the last day I did have, like, a slight, glute injury. And I felt like the glue and the tightness in the hamstring, just all of it was connected. So I do feel that, but, like, I feel pretty good. it did take, like, some time to get back into running, but I was, I, I lost some weight. It wasn't like an incredibly it none of my Pacers who came in who saw me like mid attempt said I looked like really hungry or I looked like unhealthy. and I think it was just do the fact that I was, I was constantly eating out there. I think it was like 8 to 10,000 calories a day. And those protein shakes were just so crucial. yeah. It's it's, It's quite the phenomenon. Being out there and having your body adapt to this thing that seems impossible. What was it like when you finished and you got back home and you took a shower and slept in your normal bed for the first night? Was it just like this? Like overwhelming like, oh wow. This is really what comfort is. You know, it's funny. I've, I, no, I didn't think that, like, I, I missed I, I missed a good I always missed a toilet and a sink with running water when I'm doing these things, the, the act of, like the convenience that we have in the modern day of being able to wash our hands with warm water. I barely wash my hands out there, like, and I had a strategy for, like, you know, staying clean, but it wasn't like the fact that we have warm water where we can use soap and wash our hands, and then there's towels right there that we could dry our hands with. The convenience is wild. I think I was more mind blown by the convenience. I generally enjoy using the bath. I know this sounds so weird, but I generally enjoy using the bathroom outdoors a lot more than I do in a bathroom. even though the place I'm staying at right now has a heated toilet seat. That's incredible. The first time using one of those, but, like, I generally enjoy that. And I also enjoy myself, like, being. This sounds so cliche, but being, like, in the trail and just like, you know, being dirty and like, it's you're just giving it all you got. And sleeping on the trail. I get my best sleep when I'm outside, you know, with a couple friends in tents. And we're just like, having a great time. And for half of the time, I did sleep in a tent. Half the time I slept in the van, when I got home and I started sleeping in the bed. Yeah, it was super comfortable. And the showers, you know, hot water, like, I can't. I can't get over the fact that we just have hot water coming out of these spigots. or, like the sinks and the showers. I think I was more just amazed by the convenience of hot water. I remember only taking three showers during the 40 days. And each time I took that shower, it was just like, oh, like, this is. This is living right here. Yeah, yeah. You definitely, I would imagine, gained like a really, really next level appreciation for some of those comforts when, when you're out there like that. And I think like the backcountry hunters talk about that a lot to where they'll be out there for like multiple days, kind of on a hunt, and maybe they'll get rained on for a period of time and stuff like that, and then they go back home afterwards and it's like. Oh, wow. I actually, like, was taking all of this for granted. And it's almost like this reset of how appreciative you should be about some of these things compared to what you typically get to when you're just like living amongst it the whole time. Yeah. Absolutely. I love that aspect of like you know being on trail and then getting to like the comforts. It almost to a point, it almost feels like I feel guilty for having all of these comforts at a point like, wow, this is almost too much, too much comfort. Yeah. You need a transition phase to move into an RV first and then back into the house. Yeah, absolutely. I had one more question for you, Tara, that someone sent me before, before the episode and one was that said that the rumor has it you had four toenails removed before this project because you thought they were just going to get in the way if they were there? Is that true? Yeah. Yeah, that is true. I tend to lose my toenails, and they really slow my pace down during really long stuff like bent micro mounds, a C, Colorado Trail, even some hundred milers. They just really slow me down. So I knew, like preemptively, I wanted to remove the big toenails, especially those that always fall off. But I also got the fourth toenail from the end removed as well on both feet. Right on. I think, Pam Smith and I want to say Scott Trayer maybe was telling me that they've had their toenails removed, just all of them, just like, you know, there's no need for these. And I'm pretty sure it was Scott. Hopefully I'm not throwing Scott in a pool. He's not actually in. But I want to say he was telling me like, it's just just do it. You don't need them. There's no reason for him at this point. Like it's way better on race day and after race day. And yeah, it makes you think so. Well, you're in the you're I guess you're at least partly in the toenail list group now. So. Yeah. Yeah, I, the podiatrist, asked my podiatrist the first visit. I was like, can I get them all removed today? And she was like, or he was a guy who's doing the first round. He's like, absolutely not. And I was like, why? It's like, oh, you'll see. And it was so painful. Oh at least I don't. Yeah, yeah. The way he was doing it was painful. But then the next time I had this other lady and she liked it, it was my big toenails and it went so quickly and it was so not painful. So I wonder if there were also some like doctors, you know, differences there as well. Yeah. She was way better at toenail removal. She was. Yeah. Oh that's funny. Cool. Well, Tara, I mean, this has been awesome to kind of hear a little bit about how you got into the sport and just where your kind of passions are heading. And obviously, I mean, I don't know, like this has got to be some sort. I think this record is just it's I don't think it's I think we're doing a justice asking whether it's one of the better races of the year. I think it's one of those that when you think of just things that people have done in the modern ultra era that stand in very, very like small groupings of results, this one's up there with it. So, I mean, it's been a pleasure to talk to you and kind of hear a little bit more about it. Yeah. Thank you so much. This is great. So many different questions that I've been getting. Yeah, I tried to listen to some of the stuff you've done already. And sometimes I like, like to wait a little longer to have someone on after something like this because then it's like you just, you see, like kind of what all the upfront stuff is. And then you can kind of look at where they're maybe not getting explored. What else would add to the catalog of information out there? So, but yeah, your story has been getting told. It's been really cool to see. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, it's fun to tell the story. Yeah. I'm hoping to, you know, eventually the podcasts are going to end, but hopefully there's like some sort of telling, in my own words, I do have the YouTube channel that I'm doing, like those daily update videos on. but yeah, hopefully one day I'll have a medium to be able to, like, tell the complete story of the FKT. Yeah. I just wanted to give you a chance to kind of let the listeners know where they can find you. If I know you're active on Instagram and you've got a great YouTube channel and, yeah. What are you up to outside of running? Yeah, I make videos on my YouTube channel, Tara treks. Treks. Right now I'm posting, like, daily updates, from the Appalachian Trail. I vlogged during it and also have an Instagram account where I'm posting, like, shorter style videos of daily updates on the Appalachian Trail. And that's Tara Dauer DWR. Awesome. Well, hopefully they go over there and follow those because those are great opportunities to kind of see everything that goes in there. And then. Yeah, and then maybe, maybe once the podcasting kind of settles down a little bit, you'll, you'll start your own podcast. That would be my goal. Yeah, I was thinking about starting one soon with a friend, but I don't know, I think, I, I enjoy there are so many ultra podcasts, I don't think I have a lot to add to that, but it would just be cool to do like some short series with like my crew, and just asking them questions. Yeah. yeah. Well, yeah. Let me know if you ever want to explore that. I've definitely been in the podcast world for quite a while, and I think you're right, there's, there's a lot of ultra content out there. So, I mean, that doesn't mean that you can't add to it, but I've always found, like, kind of keeping a little bit of a different, like, type of show going has been rewarding for me because it's like, you can I love ultra running, but sometimes having something a little bit different works to, to have, something to dive into, both cognitively and kind of learning the whole podcast side of things. So yeah. Yeah, it'd be fun to have, yeah, like a series for you and your crew to kind of go over some of the storytelling, be kind of like a campfire chat. Yeah, yeah. We have a lot of stories that need to be shared. Right on. Well cool. Well maybe we'll, we'll see that down the road. But again Tara, thanks again for giving me some time to chat about everything. Yeah. Thanks for having me.