Joe. Welcome back. Dude, great to be here Zach. I love talking about all the exciting things in ultrarunning. And man, there's been a lot of exciting stuff since the last time we recorded this. So we were just going through like all the stuff we could talk about, and I was like, wow, this could be like a 3 or 4 hour episode. So I'm excited that I know, right? Yeah, yeah, we might have to practice a little brevity with the topics we have on hand, but I think it's fun too. Yeah, like unpack some of the stuff. And, you know, one we didn't actually chat about because I felt like it was kind of a no brainer, but it's also one that is getting far enough back that I think we just missed it on our last recording, it was kind of in between was, Katie Schide Utmb. We didn't talk about that last one. I don't think it was. No, we did not hear that. I think it was like, right. Yeah, it was right before that, which is yeah, definitely something worth talking about for sure. Yeah. It seemed to me like a performance. That was I mean, Katie skied this year, I think is like when her performance at Western States was obviously close enough to Courtney's time and then breaking the course record at Utmb, it felt to me like the sport took a step towards, where I think the men's side of the field has been at for a bit now, where if those two are on the starting line of the same race, it's no longer, well, it's Courtney's race to lose, or you can't necessarily have the kind of like the Tiger Woods effect of golf, where it was Tiger versus the field. Yet for such a long time, it was kind of Courtney versus the field where like, you either bet on Courtney or everybody else, and that would be kind of how that would play. Now it's like, you know, it's almost in my opinion, I would probably feel compelled to look at what they had been doing prior, and if it was something where one of them was peaking for or the way I like to look at this is like, if one peaks for Western and the other peaks for Utmb, I'm betting on the peaking, not the the person any longer. And I think that's maybe the first time I'd be willing to say that first, then someone other than Courtney. 100%. Yeah. And you make a lot of good points there like I think. Yeah. Like she has had the Tiger Woods effect where it's like you know she's a clear bet in every scenario. But now people are asking the question. They're like can we compare Katie to Courtney. Like how would she compare in a race like these two? So that would be a cool showdown to see. Two. It's very interesting. Like, you know, I think, Koop put out a post because, you know, she's obviously coached by Jason Koop. Koop put out a post on, like, all, like, the things that she did differently in training, like leading up to it too. And I remember there were a lot of really cool kinds of things there. Like they were talking about having her do, like higher running volume because she was doing a lot of cross training. But they got her to like to run, run a lot more, which is cool. They looked a lot more at her nutrition, like the holistic side of things like protein consumption and just overall just getting that dialed in a lot more, more targeted strength training. which is really cool because. I saw that and it's like, okay, like Katie made this, like, like she's just been progressing year after year. And to see her, like, go this next step up. Right in the world of if you remember our first whole trip dates, we talked about the developments in the sport like super shoes and high carb. Like none of that was really mentioned there. It was all like just doubling down on like the basics, right? It's like solid running training, getting in better nutrition holistically, like in both also to like, you know, outside of the running strength training. Right. Like all things like that, we know that they are really important for runners. but it seemed like she just, like, had, like, a much more intentional thing, according to Coop's post. And to see her, like, you know, start to edge the point where she's, like, meeting Courtney. It's like a cool thing, I think, for athletes to look at, because we're always looking at some of the things that I think professional athletes at a level like that too, like the average person is not going to move the needle because they're very much like 1 or 2% things. But it's really cool to see, like Katie taking like the big like, you know, movers of the needle that can happen to any athlete and just doubling down on those and then getting to where she's at. I thought that was just such a fascinating thing too. But I do agree, like, I think if Katie and Courtney go toe to toe, I don't think it's a dead win conversation anymore for Courtney. I mean, I still think, like, she's got a chance, but Katie just seems to just get better and better and showing no signs of stopping along the way, which is, I think, such an exciting thing for the sport. Yeah. And I think the other interesting thing about her too, is especially with the Western States performance this year, was it started showcasing kind of like at this point now you kind of have to look at the athletes history a little bit more specifically to there's always going to be kind of the important things that are going to apply to almost everybody. But with Katie specifically, it's like she's a little more kind of grew up or not, maybe grew up, but she spent a lot more times over the last few years, like kind of doing more Utmb style, kind of a lifestyle where, like you mentioned, a lot of cross training, a lot of, like more steep mountain type stuff. Whereas Western States have a lot of running to do. So I think like, yeah, when you're looking at taking her from what was a world class performance the year prior to a whole nother step forward and getting into the fifteens this year, you're looking at like probably getting a little more specific to that course, which is just going to be more running for her, getting used to that. And it seems like it worked. And then when you're going to try to double the way she did at Western and Utmb, I think it's a unique scenario for her too, because since she's got a background on that course, she can probably lean on those strengths a little bit more specifically, whereas for Western states, she kind of has to carve out a new adaptation process towards those specifics, but she can kind of turn it around, maybe with proper recovery after Western states and not feel like she's got, you know, the full like calendar build up. Need to prepare for YouTube, which is maybe why we saw her break that course record after her next level Western States performance. Right? 100%. And that's a good point about her having that mountain background too. And one thing I'm curious about, I'd love to hear your take on this too, is because being in that environment, being in the mountains and stuff does that, even though it's not as specific to western states. Right. Because western states. Is that California carpet very runnable? Right. And Utmb is like steep, you know, alpine, of course, you get a little bit of the alpine stuff early on in Western states, but for the majority of that part where you need to close, it's very, very runnable stuff. You know, I think about two years ago and even last year or two, arguably, like when you look at hobbling 100, right, it's a very runnable course. And then you got guys like Dakota Jones there who's, you know, he's top of the podium at Hard Rock, a very, very mountainous guy. He comes out and just blasts Pat. Pat Reagan's course record that had stood for time. And this was a guy who was like, you know, he's a mountain runner, right? And even last year you're looking at John Ray like on that side of things. And so I think I'm curious to hear your take on Katie's, you know, such close proximity to the mountains in France living in that area. Do you think that leads to, like, her just being stronger on that runnable kind of stuff as well? Like how do you feel like that stuff translates? I'm super curious. Yeah, I think if I think the argument there for her would be, since she's historically done more kind of cross training, mountain style training type stuff. The volume that she's probably put in, like holistically outside of just running, is probably quite high. So then what it becomes is like, how do we match that massive cardiovascular development with the skeletal muscle side of being able to run for as long as you're going to have to do, and the downhill runnable stuff on Western states, which can chew your quads up and then dealing with the heat. So for me, which I think is really a shorter window improvement needed there, I think like if your cardiovascular fit and then all you have to really do is get your legs ready for the specifics on a course like Western states, that's going to be a much shorter timeline. You can do that in like a peaking phase, whereas if it's the other way around, if you're just like, okay, I've been a runner historically, my overall volume has been lower because I haven't been doing cycling, skiing and things to supplement it to get those higher volume training weeks. Then you may have a longer term development phase, because you have to actually expose yourself to that cardiovascular side of the development for a little bit longer than you would have to. So maybe I mean, it seems goofy to kind of say like, oh, well, maybe Jim needed to be out in because that'd be like kind of the the men's version of that, like Jim winning Western states and then trying to go out and win Utmb be it's kind of like the reverse scenario in that in that regard where his background is running, you know, not a lot of cross training outside of maybe some cycling and hiking, but really running a running purist for the most part, for most of his development. And then he had to kind of learn the the long, slow mountain hiking side of things a little bit more specifically, and then maybe weave in some cross training so he's able to ratchet that up a little bit without taking the punishment that your body is going to take from trying to run year round at that level of volume. So, yeah, I think you're. I guess the question you're probably asking is, is it easier to have a background with a kind of Utmb style lifestyle and then come over and speak for Western states? Or is it easier to have a background that would lead you towards western states and then fine tune your Utmb? I think it's going to be easier to go to Utmb to Western States. I think we're talking about long enough distances here where all these people likely have or likely fast enough, where that's not going to be a variable, that it's going to be a variable, it's going to give you opportunities to make more mistakes, potentially, but it's not going to be an end all, be all the way. It would maybe be if you were talking about a runnable course that's shorter, like Olympic distance, where, you know, if you don't have the speed reserve, you're just not going to get to the times that we'd be looking at from a world class level standpoint. And then a skill set becomes something where you could work on and improve upon, but the actual high end of what you're capable of genetically and background wise is going to be a bigger factor. Yeah, 100%. And as you're kind of talking to that too, like I agree, I think Utmb to Western is probably going to be the biggest one. I think about it almost like the repeated bad effects of downhill running, right? It's like you look at that, you really only need like the studies show, like a couple, maybe 2 or 3 hard downhill sessions to get a pretty significant adaptation. Right? And you think about like, what that body's going to do, you know, at a race, like I always say, like, anytime I race like javelina versus like a mountainous race, like I'm always way more so after javelina. Like, it's just that running is just a little bit harder on your body. And I think about that. It's like you have that short window where it's like, maybe it's a similar thing, like the repeated bad effect where you just, you know, really condense maybe just a few weeks of just running, running, training on top of all the cardiovascular stuff that you've built. On top of that, it's a I think it's an easier transition to go from like, you know, being that purist runner to then like trying to cram in because I think even historically like looking at people who have maybe trained or had like these running backgrounds and they kind of almost go a little bit of a cram into Utmb or like just try to like just up their vert. you know, it seems like that's always a little bit harder of a transition for some athletes, that I've seen out there too. So yeah, it's a pretty interesting thing too. And, you know, to see that kind of play out in like some of these like really great Utmb athletes just doing well, you know, coming into Western states or Utmb be like peaking training. Like that's, that's a cool thing that I would definitely like to be curious about in terms of like, what are these athletes like speaking for and everything like that too? And, it'd be cool to see Katie go for the triple to like the Western Hardrock, and compare the times. I think that would be a really cool thing I'd love to see over the next few years is like a wish list in the sport. Yeah, you almost have to compare times, although you'd get the arguments about weather and course variants and things like that with those type of comparisons, but it'd be kind of like the Grand Slam, right? yeah. I think the days are over. I don't think what Courtney did with those three wins will be done again. I think I think where we're at now is it's almost impossible for the men's side of the sport to do a Western States Utmb win. I think that's unlikely I would. I'm never going to say impossible, but I think that's very, very unlikely. I don't think I would never come close to betting on that happening. in fact, I would actively bet against it if someone wins Western states on the men's side and they're doing Utmb, I'm going to bet against them all day long for that scenario. Whereas kind of like I was saying before, that wouldn't have been the case had it been Courtney in the past, or maybe Katie. Now, I think that the women are getting much closer to that, where that's that sort of scenario is probably going to be off the table. it's just going to take maybe 1 or 2 more people like Katie and Courtney, to make it such that someone is always going to be doing one or the other, and then it kind of becomes like, then you're just hoping for someone to make a mistake versus you having your best day. and then you throw another race in the middle of that with hard rock. Now all of a sudden it's just getting more and more complicated to because now you have three events you have to hope everyone else is avoiding. And is there a scenario where the top women in the sport, only one of them does all three of those, whereas one of them does all three, but the other kind of spread out amongst them. I think that's getting rare. Yeah, 100%. It'll be interesting to see if Jim next year goes back to redoing the double because I know this year he had some bodily issues according to what I was hearing too. And it was like an injury kind of thing too. But you know it's interesting. Do you think if there was someone to do in the men's, do you think it's Jim or like do you think do you think it's still just so far out of reach? Yeah. Oh man. It's such a tough thing. I mean, I think it had to be Jim or Killian, I think. I think you could maybe make an argument for Tom Evans, but. Right. Yeah. Again, I think I think it's so unlikely because just the, just the fact that there's maybe 3 or 4 guys I could think of that I would say, you know what, if it's going to happen, it's going to be one of them tells me that it's so unlikely because there's those other if I pick one of them, there's those other three that are kind of going to pick one of those other races and do it solely, and then it's going to be hard to beat, or you get someone where I wouldn't bet on Zach Miller winning Western states, I wouldn't be shocked if he did, but he wouldn't be my first bet amongst the top guys. But I could very much bet on him winning UT and B, so what happens if Zach Miller speaks for Utmb while, say, Jim is trying to do the double or killing, trying to do the double, or Tom Evans trying to do a double? And here's Zach sitting in the background, logging 50,000 foot climb weeks and getting ready just to, like, show up and destroy everyone on or on race day. But then we just have the growth of the sport too, because it's like this year at Utmb, you know, no one's betting on the men's winner before that race. So we also have the like or the scenario where someone just pops up that we're not counting on yet. And they had been kind of grinding on that course specifically. And then they put up a day like we saw this year. Yeah. Vincent's performance was amazing. I mean, like, not expected. Like, I don't recall people picking him to be the outright winner. And, you know, here he comes. Having the day of his life like, that was just a really, really cool thing to see. Yeah. And it's going to be interesting to see if Jim takes another stab at it next year. But I agree, it's, I think just the way that people race Western's so hard and then try to make that transition is a tough thing too. But yeah, time will only tell. But it's really cool to see. To go back to the original point on the women's side, I'd love to see that there's like competition in there again. Right? Because I feel like even like the men's side, you look at it this year, right? Yeah, sure. You could have said Jim is the clear outright winner, and I would have totally made that thing too. But then, you know, Roddy favored not that far past him and gave Jim the fight for his life. And then right 10s behind him was Hayden, like, you know, so it's like so tight knit. Whereas Courtney is just like dominating these races where like, people aren't even close. Like it's not even like a contest. But now it's like Katie's going to be nipping at the heels, like if they're in a race together, for sure, and they're both speaking for that. And I think that's super, super exciting. And, you know, when you even just see like more women just doing amazing things at the sport, even beating dudes like, you know, Tara, like we'll talk about on the At. And just like these incredible feats of endurance. Like I just I love to see that competition because it's going to require everybody to level up a lot more. And I think you know it when you see someone like Courtney, I'd be curious, like to ask like, Katie, this question is like like, do you? I'm wondering if she sees that as like, okay, like this is where I can go, right? It almost raises the bar, raises the standard. And I think now with Katie kind of being in that conversation, like, I'm sure you're going to get a lot of just other amazing women shooting for that caliber. And the gap I think will close, like between Courtney and others for sure. yeah, it's a fun spot to be in the sport. And, you know, and like you mentioned, it's not just 100 milers anymore. It's not just like these iconic trail races. We have projects like what Tara just did on the Appalachian Trail. Like just mind boggling. Like the amount of just the amount of just length with something like that to wrap your head around it and then to go out and finish. What was she finishing? It was 40 days. What was it exactly? Again? It was 40 days of the exact number. Here it was. 40 days, 18 hours and six minutes flat. Which, Carl Saab's record. He went northbound, but still was the fastest time at the time. 41 days, seven hours and 39 minutes. So pretty much shaved off nearly a day, which is just amazing on the overall record, which is the coolest thing ever. The coolest thing about the attempt at two different things kind of stands out to me. Like the first thing is like, she did hard rock, like she did hard rock before. Yeah. That's right. Which is so freaking cool. Right? And so, I think that's a cool thing. And, you know, she was talking on a podcast that she did with, Finn Melanson on single track, like saying that she was getting a lot of people saying this is a bad idea and everything, but, you know, for her, she was like, I think that prepared me like to be able to do like an 100 mile training day over all these mountains and everything like that to like. And if you look at Tara like she races a lot, she's on the I don't know if she'll go through this or not. I got to ask her, but she's on the race list for Javelina. Like she's on the entrance list, is she? I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if she does it, you know what I mean? Like, if you look at her races over the year, she crams in tons of races in there, too. So I think she just has a lot of that experience to like, you know, really like to put herself through these big efforts and recover super fast, which the second leads. The second thing I think is the coolest thing about the attempt. Like she was so behind on the overall record, like the first few weeks into it, like she was lagging behind. I think she was behind by like a run rate of like 100 miles or something like that, which is huge. And then she like, you know, went from like 40, 40 mileage days to the 50s and 60s cut her sleep out and just. Like pretty much from a mileage perspective, like negative split it, which is just so cool to see because usually it's harder to do that in these longer distance events from what you kind of see anecdotally. So, but I think it is just raising the bar for like man, like and Tara even says this too. She talks about it. It's like, you know, women can shoot for these, these overall like men's records. They can go for it. And like the gap is closing. And it's just such a cool thing to see her do that. Like, you know, not just for women, but just for what humans can do. I think in my opinion, I'm curious to hear what you think, but I think this is the performance of the year for ultrarunning so far. Yeah, I would say so. It's got to be up there. I mean, the argument against that would be just like, is it a category something that wouldn't be right? Because, I mean, facts and events, it's hard to compare because you don't have someone like you racing you. But I mean, if we just look at what was the most impressive feat in ultrarunning this year, it's certainly up with a couple of different performances. yeah. And I mean, what you said about her pacing strategy is interesting to me, too, because I think this is just a conversation where, I mean, I've gone back and forth on this. I think, like anytime I start feeling like I've kind of got it narrowed down a little bit more specifically as to what the best pacing strategy is, something happens that sort of kind of adds evidence to the other side. It's like it's almost the perfect time for me when I'm just starting to get confident and it's just like, nope. And then you see something happened. I mean, like David Roche's Leadville, which, yeah, that's something else has happened since we last recorded too, is like, true. One thing when I had him on, I think you had him on your podcast too, it seemed like David was on all of the podcasts which made the rounds. Yeah, he should be after that. But one thing I wanted to really try to get inside his head about with the time when he came on, mine was like, how did he feel in that kind of final 20 miles in terms of his motivation to push? How fresh did his legs feel? Because he had a pretty big, positive split. And one of my arguments that I've been more convinced by with like a more even to negative split strategy, is that that strategy is going to put you in a position where you're going to feel better, maybe at the end of this race versus this inevitable kind of like what I think most people think is death march type mentality necessary in order to like, maybe you're not actually death marching, but it's going to feel like it's going to be way more difficult, where when you mentally unpack the race, you're thinking like there was the first 70, 80 miles, and then there was the last 2030 and the last 2030 carries so much mental weight. Whereas when you negative split. The mental weight balance. To me, the way I've perceived this historically for myself has been it's more distributed evenly, so you don't feel like you're taking on way more of that at certain points. So I tried to figure it out. It was kind of tough with David because he's a first time hundred mile finisher. So he really didn't have a perspective to weigh against other than some other ultramarathons which carry some value. But I think there's some specifics. As you move to different distances that would be important, which just makes me more excited to see him do more 100 miles, because I don't think he's going to always have days like you had at Leadville, and then maybe he'll have some perspectives that he can start kind of comparing this one to. Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see what he does at Javelina in just a few weeks to yeah, I and it is a really interesting thing too, because like, I think, you know, all the time you think of first time 100 miler and like there's so much unique experience from that. Like I think even, you know, you coach me through my first 100 miles or two. And I do remember, like you telling me, you're like, yeah, like once you get to that unknown, it is a hard place to be and you need to take care of yourself up front to not get it so hard at the end. And, you know, I think even a lot of that weight carries more so in your first time going through the distance. So it's going to be interesting to see how he handles that at Javelina, where it's like, now he knows what a hundred Miles feels like. Objectively, it's going to be a shorter time on course if he has even a great day out there. Even though it's not his best day, right? Like just from a time perspective with less vert and altitude. but, you know, who knows, like, I mean, like, is, is it going to be anything going to be different with the heat? Is anything going to be different with the running that's in there relative to the vert like so. And you know, you have some times when people, you know, have amazing performances and then maybe not. But I think it's cool because he's very much cognizant of that from what I've been hearing. Like he's like, yeah. Like it's this is like the second sample size in an experiment. He's kind of running through a hundred mile training. So it'll be cool to see. And yeah, I mean, we can talk about javelina stuff too. but you know, I think. You know, you've told me this too. And I think it's so true. It's like a really beautiful race. Run a javelin as your first and fifth loops are the fastest and I don't. I could be wrong, but I don't know if that's been the case over the past couple of years just because I even think with Golden Tickets races it's skewing more positive. whereas if you look at someone like Tara, like she mastered like the negative mileage split on, a very long effort and look how it paid off. So, yeah, it always gets me, gets me curious to see what's going to happen this year when it's going to be so brutally hot compared to the last few years. But yeah, it's an enigma, I think. I think with like pacing strategy, if I, if you if you pinned me down and said, okay, I want to know what your current view of this is, I would say like I think like if you're looking if you can put yourself in a vacuum and just say what strategy is going to produce the fastest pace, for me, it's going to be some relatively small margin to either side of even. But like if it's not negative, that doesn't mean the big question is like where is that margin that range? Like is it 1%, 2%, 3%, 4%? You know, you could keep going and going. And let's say we established that then. Is there any variance inside of there that would be more beneficial for you to employ based on what actually happens, which is a race where there's other people out there performing. And I think when you get the level of competition that we see at Western States and Javelina now, the best argument for a positive split to me would be a positive split. That's not drastic. So probably inside a few percentage points of even. But it's putting you in a position where you're in the race because you're not letting you know. So if what ultimately ends up happening is you get like a couple dozen guys going with that strategy, and only a handful of them are actually going to be able to execute it, right, because they got their numbers crunched properly and their pacing and their capabilities properly calibrated. And then they're the ones who ultimately end up having that slight positive split, whereas everyone else kind of blows up and has a really big positive split. or I guess the curious part about that would be if someone sat back and kind of tried to do what I did last, or tried to do last year. I didn't execute it perfectly by any stretch, but like sit back and let kind of that lead pack go and then work your way up into the field. Is there a margin for someone who is faster? Let's say there was someone who employed my strategy from last year, but was a little faster than me and was able to get down into that kind of low 13 high 12 hour range. Are they going to? Is that something that's just a psychological battle for the individual to be able to kind of sit off of the very front and then all of a sudden like pop in there at the very end and steal it, like, how likely is that? Is there an opportunity for that still? Is it just too much of a stress to be sitting that far back? I think there's a lot of individual components in psychology there that you could make arguments at the individual level for, like doing it or not doing it. Yeah. And you know, even just thinking about that too, I think aid station Fireball did like some stats on it and I, I don't remember the exact numbers, but I remember hearing something along the lines of like for I think it was both the men's and the women's field. If any of those athletes weren't in the top ten after the finish of loop one or something like that, the chance of a golden ticket is significantly small. And it's like, I think maybe you hear that as like an athlete and you're like, well, I got to be in the top ten. I got to be in the hunt or we hear it all the time. It's like, I gotta keep my eye on, like where the first is, right? And of course there's going to be people who get dragged out and lead on, like the really fast stuff as well too. So I think it's a really interesting component to kind of think about. just because there is that competition, it is like playing the field. There is all that stuff as well too. And, you know, I think maybe over time, like once we've kind of, I don't want to say like hit parity in the sport with a lot of people with stuff like that. But I think, you know, it just takes someone, you know, like a Nick Curry or like you who like, you know, go through and like to execute these strategies. So like one day kind of show it like, I think it's Scott Trayer and in Black Canyon, three years ago. Right. I think he was in. I don't remember the exact number like 30th place or something like going into Bumblebee or something like that. He was like way far back. And then dude gets a golden ticket, right? Like comes, comes in the top three. and he's been like a guy similar to you. I mean, even last year, like, you and I were running in the beginning, I think we were like 20th place or something like that. And then, you know, you creeped up into a top ten, which is awesome at the end. Running sub 14, like, that's great. And so I'm curious to see how that shakes out if the strategy does because like, it just seems like a lot of people just run hard and hold on for dear life at the end. And to me it's just hard to think of a mileage like 100 miles, that it's hard to kind of go for. Right? And then I look at people like Tara, how she's able to close so freaking strong at the end and granted, like, right, like to go to your point to like for her, the only person she's like racing at is the ghost of, Crosby. Right. Like, that's what she's racing out there. But there's no person, like, there's no people in front of her. Like. And so, like, I wonder what those kinds of attempts like, if it almost like, takes it a lot off or even in these, like, you know, fixed time events, if you're trying to go for a certain record or something like that. I know you have a lot more experience in that realm than I have. Like having just it like being like, okay, this is me against the clock or me against like that. If that, you know, conclusively has someone to be more trusting of a negative or an even split than, you know, trying to go absolutely balls out in the beginning and just hold on at the end, just to just to be at the front, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting, I think. Part of me wants to think of it in the sense that if you really want to truly find your full potential, just the idea of planning a negative split is a hard sell, because it's sort of putting yourself in a situation where you're going to limit yourself to some degree, whereas like you have a race like like that David had at Leadville, like he's either having a historic day for himself or he's blowing up epically. Those are kind of the options on the table, and I think it works sometimes. So it almost becomes this thing, where do you want to really, really figure out what you're capable of and know? Like, okay, I could not have gone faster than that. Or do you want to stack a bunch of likes relatively close to your potential events, but not necessarily know for sure if you could have gone a little bit faster? I mean, you could, I guess, assume a negative split on the table. That really isn't. And then be close enough where you actually run a slight positive and then you do find that. So that's the argument. You could go back and forth. So really what this comes down to is the number of opportunities or how many swings you take at this particular thing. And you know, with ultrarunning it gets a little goofy because it's like these are long, stressful races. There's also like tons of variance amongst them. Very few people are targeting the exact same event over and over again, the way you'd see for fast marathon running and things like that. You know, most people like what David's doing. He did Leadville. Now he's going to have a Lena. If he does well, have a Lena. I'm sure he'll do Western states, three very different courses. So it's like, how do you even begin to compare those and decide whether your strategy was employed properly or not? When you have that many different variables from one event to the next. Yeah 100%. Yeah. And like the different courses. Definitely like that you know different variable things too. But you know at the end of the day it's like I think you answered the question right. It's like you want to do your best. And I think sometimes if David runs that Leadville course, there is no competition there. I think you get a faster time for sure, like 100%. You know, it was just like him against him. Like there's that. And I think the same thing is true with Javelina, too. An interesting kind of thing too, even from just a recent experience for me. So I was out pacing and crewing Sarah Suzuki at Moab 240 this past weekend. And you know, she got the course record and won. If you look like a pull up or Strava file, especially in that race where most of the vert is back loaded to the end of that race, it's really even like she nearly split this race over the course of 240 miles. And she took it like super chill in the beginning, you know. And then she closes really strong with pretty much nearly all the vert on that back half of the race. And, you know, she ends up getting a course record and, you know, she came in even below the time that she had planned, like on her spreadsheet, which is like super, super cool. But it's like, you know, she set herself up for that. And it's like when you set yourself up for that. And for her, it was like, this is what I want to do. This is my plan. it was cool to see her take that as like, you know, she was very much looking at it as her plan. Not like, oh, I need to be out in front or anything like that. And that was a cool, like, psychology moment and even something that I'm taking in a javelina race this year. Like, you know, you've coached me through Javelina two times before and I've, you know, told you. I was like, yeah, I want to go for the Golden Ticket. And even for me, like I think about that and I'm like, ah, like, I think this year I'm just going to focus on running the best race I can. And I think that the best strategy to get a golden ticket is to run the best thing that you can. So yeah, it's just an interesting thing to see across this. And I do think, I do think this too, and this is very much like more of an anecdotal thing than a science thing. I think women are just much more disciplined with the pacing than men like I think I do. Like I think there is, just like if there's going to be someone who even splits or negative split the race, like I would be 100% betting on a woman than a man, because in the end of the day, like, you know, I think there's something about and, you know, this is speaking from you and I both guys and been being competitive in the past. I think there's just a little bit more of the like kind of, you know, gusto in there that we have, that kind of can just let it get ahead. Whereas like, I think women are a lot more consistent. They're a lot more disciplined with it, and so controlled. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think we need to learn from the women a little bit more. I wonder if that'll change to some degree now that women's fields are getting a little tighter, where you'll see a little bit more. Aggressive starts like a little more kind of like angst about staying with the lead pack because kind of like what we were talking about before. It's like, I think when you have someone way out in front like Courtney, it's a little easier. I think if you're one of the women in the field to say, like, well, I should probably let her go because all evidence points to me blowing up if I try to run Step or step with Courtney. Whereas I think as the sport grows and competition tightens and tightens and tightens and we have fields where it's like, oh, there's ten women here and all could win. If the day plays out in this certain direction. I think that maybe puts us in a position where there's a little more aggressive tactics and we see you see it to some degree. I think like, I mean, even last year at Javelina, I didn't pass Heather Jackson until the third loop and I finished fifth overall. So like I remember on the first loop, looking down at my watch, I'm like, oh, we're on the men's course record pace. And she was right next to me. And I'm just thinking to myself, I'm like, well, that's an aggressive start. Unless she goes and runs you know, sub 13 hours. She ran an incredibly fast time like it was 14, 22 or something like that. Second is the second fastest time on that course or something like that for the women's side of the field. But when you look at the splits there, it's way positive. So I think there's some signs that maybe that's shifting. And my big question is that is that driven by just the, the competitive side of these fields balancing out more than they were in the past. And now we're going to see some pressure for that to happen versus, you know, someone showing up and feeling like, oh, I can run a smart race, I can run my race because there isn't that that the gaps between you and the person that you would try to compete against are big enough where you're either like, I'm not going to risk it or I don't have to worry about them. Kind of a mentality. 100%. Yeah. That's actually a really, really good point. Yeah. Heather is a good example to bring in that too because I even remember running with you and we were like she is booking. Like she was just way out and you did great. I mean like she did awesome at Javelina that year. I mean, she did awesome as I believe with Casey this year too. Like, and so, yeah, who knows, like, maybe like, even at Black Canyon, right? She did, like, an amazingly fast time out there when she did that a couple of years ago. So all that being said, like, who knows if the women were going to follow too and, you know, go into that. Positive kind of split mindset. I would say like, I mean, we don't have to get into the weeds too much with this. She really impressed me at Western States this year because that's what she got as a result of winning Javelina. And my thought after Javelina was like, if she tries to employ that strategy at Western states, it will just end terribly because that course is going to make you pay more for that sort of aggressive start, I think, than Javelina will. but it seemed like she sat off a little bit more this year. She didn't try to chase Katie early and ran. Well, she's six this year at Western. She was in the top ten, well into the top ten, maybe 6 or 7, something like that. So I was really impressed with just the way she kind of went about it this year at Western. Well, it was interesting. You said the thing about her with Western states because so the first year she did Western State, she took the fall from western states, didn't have it in there. And she is also, I will say to caveat that she's a very humble person, like she's just, you know, super kind. She's amazing. But I remember watching some pre-race interviews with her and she was like, the only goal I have out here today is to finish the race. Like. And she was very adamant about that. And I'm wondering if like because it was like, I just want to finish Western, that she ends up pacing a lot better to kind of go back to the arguments we're saying before. It's like, if it's you against you, are you going to pay smarter? So yeah, I'd be interested to have a conversation with her and like, pick her brain on that, because I just remember seeing so many interviews where she was just saying, like, I don't care about what she didn't say, I don't care, like specifically. But basically she wasn't making a big stink on, like, I'm going to be top ten or I'm going to like to do this. It was like, I just want to finish the race. I don't care if I'm in this place or not. And I'm wondering if that just led her to have her best days she can have out there, you know? Yeah, maybe if we solved anything, it's that perspective matters. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And it's like, you know, it's just you. You run your best race. It's like, could you pay smarter and race to your full potential as a friend? Tara did out there to also the ultra athletes. Man I got to say the team ultra with the facts this year. I mean you got Tara on the eight. You got Kyle Kirton on the CT and then Jeff on CT. Other direction. Like it's just Ultra's like becoming the, the, the fked brand of choice here. Yeah. That would be fitting I think with the way the Lone peak is done with the through hiking community over the years. Yeah, it is the official shoe of the Fkt. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. You know something that we've talked about in this, these episodes in the past too, that I don't always see discussed frequently on king of the news and stuff, are some of these, longer timed events and things like that. So, like, there's been so much excitement in that world recently as well with the more kind of rode track, timed event, multi-day type stuff too, I mean. The Self-Transcendence 3100 mile event is out in New York, and there's been a few finishers at this point, but that's currently ongoing. And then, I mean, just with the you know, we've always kind of seen maybe a little bit of a less less of the sport growth over the last maybe decade or so. Go towards some of the more, I would say historic events, because when you look at the history of trail running in mountain Hunter Miles, we don't go back that far. But when we get into, like the Hunter mile, the 24 hour multi-day stuff, we're going back hundreds of years in some cases with these things. And right now, on both the men's and the women's side, we're seeing some of these records start to fall again, which is really cool, not just like the hundred mile stuff or the 24 hour stuff, which we've seen a little bit more recently, but things like the 48 hour and the six day event. And when you look at this just in the last, like, if we go to like, I think maybe even a year and a half, we've seen the women's 48 hour record get broken twice. We've seen the women's six day record get broken twice in this year within a few months of one another, we've seen the Canadian 40 or national record go down. We've seen the men's six day record go down. So it's like we're starting to see some attention. Kind of go back to some of these more historic, multi-day, long, long events. And I think that's kind of cool too, to see, like the diversity in the sport, events start to kind of see that uptick kind of continually be explored. Yeah. And I'm wondering too, if that's like just the natural progression of just the overall sport of ultrarunning growing and like with, you know, it's like kind of like the numbers thing where it's like people maybe do 100 miles, they feel like they've done that and then they go into other stuff, or there's just more attention on those things. Like, I'm curious, like where a lot of that growth comes from. And maybe it's even just like the prominence of these, like longer distance events starting to get more attention, like to the forefront. Right? Because they now obviously trail and ultrarunning coverage is the best it's ever been. I mean, we got a live stream race of 200 miles, like the live stream Desert Solstice. And it's like, you know, for a while it was really like, if I recall when live streaming was really first a thing, it was really only reserved for like Western states. And Utmb was like it was very much the premier kind of event. And I think now where you get a lot more news coverage around like all this other stuff it gets the eyes on. And I think it gets people thinking like, oh, can I do that? And it's almost just kind of like, you know, the, the effect where I think when you get things like, you see people just doing these crazy long events again, it gets people to question and try to push themselves, like even further beyond just that, too. I mean, even so, even on like, not even just like the, the, kind of more obscure and non, non popular records, right? I mean, going back to David like that level, of course the record was around for a very long time. And it's not like Leadville wasn't a popular race. I mean, like you had pretty competitive fields, relatively competitive fields over the years. Like Javelina stood for a while, too. and, and, you know, you're getting these course records that are just getting mowed down, which is just an interesting thing to see. So. But I'm curious, like, what do you think a lot of this more fixed time, multi-day effort thing? Where do you think a lot of that growth is coming from? Yeah. You know, I think some of it is kind of what you were alluding to. Like we're getting some publicity for them, like they're showing up. So I think that works in two ways. One is people there's a lot of people that are getting introduced to ultramarathon running over the first, last few years. I think the pandemic drove a lot of that too. Yeah, the growth of sport drove a lot of that. Like you said, the media likes promoting it, showcasing it, getting it into the hands of people who otherwise wouldn't even know what it is. So people coming into the sport are aware of these things. Whereas I think, I mean, think of it this way for a time, I held the 100 mile world record. When I got into ultrarunning ultra marathon running, I didn't even know what the hundred mile world record was. So it's like I knew what Western states were. I knew what Trail Ultra was, but it's like I had to enter the sport before I even knew. I mean, we want to make it even more absurd. When I ran the 100 mile American record the first time in 2013, I didn't know the 12 hour world record existed, and I was told at 89 and it was like 89.5 miles into the race that I was on pace for the world record for 12. That was the first time that entire day that I even wrapped my head around, like the idea of that being something I should be targeting. Oh my gosh. Which was kind of great because they allowed me to refocus and target something new, and it kind of like I ended up running like four seconds per lap faster for the last hour or so of that race because of that, I think. But, but yeah, I mean, it's just like, I think that's changing now where some people, their introduction to the sport is because they heard about a timed event. And a lot of that is like, you know, big publicity things talking about it, you know, like me getting the opportunity to go on to Joe Rogan twice, like track timed event stuff. Cam Haynes, when he went on Rogan and talked about his mob. 240 he also talked about the 24 hours he did on a track. Same with David Goggins. They talked about some timed event stuff. So these guys, these guys who have way bigger reaches than I do, or going on podcasts that have way bigger reaches than the sport has, and actually sharing that side of the sport a little bit, I think makes a big difference. And then I know we've got a topic on this all in of itself too. But then you have someone like Camille Herron, who has been historically. I mean, she's definitely more than just a road track timed event person. She's done well at all sorts of different events, but she's broken 12 world records on timed event type courses and kind of flat, more runnable stuff. And then also one comrades, also one sport athlete and course record fashion. So it's like you get a name as big as Camille Herron making a name for herself within that side of the sport. It also invites people who are in the sport to think, oh, here's another aspect. Maybe I'll get curious about this. Maybe I'll go and try a 24 hour, or maybe I'll try a 48, or maybe I'll try a six day. And I think the appetite for just getting curious with these different events. Is getting just larger. And we're going to continue to see growth across the board and maybe even a little bit of a balancing, because when you look at opportunity in terms of like what people will have access to, a lot fewer people have access to Western states and YouTube than they do a high school track that's putting on a 24 hour event. Yeah, that's so true. And I think you have raised good points. I always call it the David Goggins effect. I felt like when Goggins came out with that book, I felt like there were so many more ultra runners. Right. And he made it. Whether or not you agree or disagree with Goggins, like he made it accessible because, like, you know, you look, he's a guy who's like £300 multiple times running ultras. I think it's gotten people there, and I don't I'm sure you maybe you've seen this as a coach. I know, even for me, like even from when I first started coaching too, now I get more people to come to me and they're like, I want to do 100 miles. And I'm like, okay, great. Like, what's the longest you've run before? And they're like 13 miles. I've never run before. Yeah, exactly. We're like, I've never run before. Like, I haven't even started. And it's like, I can't even imagine that was a thing like four years ago. You know what I'm like? When I first started running, I thought I didn't even know a hundred miles existed. And when I heard of it, I was like, that's insane. Like, that's going to take me a long time to get here. But now I think it's like you're getting that accessibility factor. So it's like the Goggins effect. And then I also call it like the air of hypo effect because I look at coca Dona right. Like coca Dona never really sold out. It kind of had a forced sellout this year with the permits. But you know, it kind of made it to the end. They have this live stream where like thousands of people are watching this thing and then this year, like they open up registration during the live stream, which is a very smart move on Jamal's part to do so. Race sells out in like two weeks. And I think that there's no coincidence on that with just, like, getting visibility on it. Right. And I run far like now they're like touting these like 12 hour races, putting the results in there, like, all this kind of stuff as well. Like, I think it's just like the distribution and putting it on the forefront. And then it really just takes someone like Camille, you know, with further or like Goggins or like Cam Haynes or like even just like, like you said, like being on people like Joe Rogan with these massive audiences. It's like that's how these things grow, right? It's like, and even so, like, I'm curious, like with Desert Solstice this year, the field looks so freaking competitive, you know, that there's people going after Nick's record this year. and so, you know, last year was obviously not a very competitive year, just with worlds in the mix. But, you know, I'm curious to see, like, how that with that live stream, that air Viper does the desert solstice with it being so competitive as it is this year. Like, are we even going to get more growth in fixed time, like, because I remember what got me really interested in fixed time was seeing Desert Solstice and seeing Nick, you know, rip off 120 plus miles in 24 hours. Like, that was a cool thing for me. Like first getting into the sport, like seeing that stuff. So yeah, I'm curious. I think after the solstice this year, it'll be another kind of big, big bump with the visibility effect there. No doubt. Yeah. Yeah. And it'll be interesting to see where all that stuff goes. And if we, if we look at timed events that have really jumped forward and maybe even matched some of the performances in the trail side, I would say the 24 hour does that. When you look at like Sorokin is 198 miles and you know, you know, just absurd numbers where, where you can you can make an argument for that being one of the best performances in ultrarunning history and, you know, short loop timed event. So interesting stuff. yeah. And I think, you know, one other topic that's been in the news, maybe a little bit less the last week or so, but was the hottest thing. If we would have recorded this episode three weeks ago, we would have led with this story because it was almost like mainstream media. Yeah. Related. Like I guess controversy at the end of the day where we were talking about Camille's athletic achievements, which are as long as I can see. Unfortunately, she got hung up in some controversy, which basically was. What I would consider problematic behavior. but it was like if it was an isolation, if it was like this one thing where, I mean, I should probably give some background, although most people listeners have probably heard the story at least, so they know what we're talking about here, where essentially what happened was Camille and Connor, her husband, went into Wikipedia and made a bunch of adjustments on both, her page and some of her competitors page to essentially make her look, better than others or denigrate others and things like that. Which, you know, the one thing I actually do is a total sidebar, but like, I didn't realize that Wikipedia was like that. It was frowned upon to go in and edit your own page. It makes sense to me now that it's been described to me, but I've just never engaged with Wikipedia in a way that would, like, teach me the ins and outs of it. So like when I was actually following this story a little bit, I was looking at this, oh, the Wikipedia community, it's like, no, go. Like you do not touch your own page. You don't create your own page. It has to be because it's their idea. With it it's not like, oh, this is my Instagram social media publicity thing. It's like, we want this to be super balanced, super unbiased. I mean, you're going to have debates along all sides whether they accomplish that or not. But generally speaking, if you're seen going into your Wikipedia page and making adjustments, that's going to be you're going to get yourself in trouble. So she did that to her, to herself. it kind of got pinned to her because they had an IP address. They knew it was her and her and or Connor, and they sort of tried to deny it at first, but then it became obvious through the article by Canadian Running Magazine, which kind of covered the story initially. That, you know, this is sort of pinned to you specifically because IP addresses are sort of signatures online. And then it's like, you know, we never really got a very concrete explanation towards it or any, any sense of like maybe remorse along the like. Yeah, I shouldn't have been screwing around with other people's Wikipedia pages and yeah, that's a problem. But I think I like it holistically. If that had been like the only thing, then we probably move past it a little more, because what the other narrative I see following this is, this was such a big story. And this actually highlights how big the sports were actually getting now. This story was so big. It was getting covered by big media outlets. Like I think the New York Times published something on it. The Washington Post might have, Runner's World did it get really big to the degree where, like, if you Google Camille Herren now, that's going to come up just as much as any of her amazing accomplishments. And it's like, yeah, to some degree, I think like there's a couple things going on there. It's like one is the sport's big, it's visible, and that is such a clickbait thing to sell. It's going to get jumped on like crazy nowadays, and it's going to ride that media wave. And then on top of it, I think, like if you look inside the ultrarunning community, I think there was maybe a few things that were done over the years that just kind of boiled things up to where this was kind of like a straw that broke a camel's back type of a scenario versus it being like, okay, this is in isolation. We should just be a little more understanding of that. But when you kind of look at just some of the online behavior that had went on with Camille encounter over the years, it just points to this being something that's a little more reoccurring all the way to the point where, I mean, we talked about Victoria Brown's 48 hour national record of Canada when she set that, Canadian running magazine ran an article, and Camille and Connor reached out to them trying to get him to retract the article. And, I mean, this is a national record in Canada. So it's like, what's the point of that? Like, other than the fact that when Victoria ran that time for that 48 hour, if you follow that event like she got third place at that event. So it's like the Stein Wrecks ended up breaking Camille's 48 hour record at that event. There was another woman in there who was right up in there. It was a real throwdown, but Victoria Brown was in position late in that race. Like I think like almost 40 hours in where it was looking like she was going to be the one to break it. So it sort of felt like this sense of, all right, here's a woman who is clearly capable of threatening some of my records, and I don't want that to be the case. And in a lot of back door types of dealings like that. And it's just like, I think that's where people who've kind of followed some of that online rhetoric and things over the years with examples like that and others, were sort of aware that this stuff was happening a little bit. So then when this occurred and there was like a very concrete fingerprint pointing back, it was sort of like a boiling over effect where it was like a lot of people, I think, were airing grievances then that, that they had had been holding on to for a long time that they just didn't feel comfortable with, or they were like adverse to doing it because, I mean, Camille has a big platform in some of these other people don't. And then when you start getting into the world of cyberbullying, which Camille has been open about having been done to her, you find out that she's doing it. She and Connor or, you know, you know, technically, like, I guess I guess as of now, they're saying it was all Connor, but I don't know how likely that is, given the number of things that have been coming up now. You know, it's just a really unfortunate scenario. And, you know, I guess if there's a silver lining with it all, it's that I think the community would welcome them both back if they came out and said, look, you made some mistakes. We can understand it's going to be hard for you to take us seriously for a bit of time. So we're going to show you that we can, you know, not behave that way. And I think people would welcome her back, into the kind of the, the, you know, the, the community, so to speak. But, you know, that's going to take an action on their side. It can't be something that other people do for her. And so far, like that's kind of where that story ends right now unfortunately, is I mean, I feel bad for her because it's like I feel bad for her to some degree where it's like she felt like. That was necessary to do that for her to feel accomplished or whatever was. I shouldn't pretend like I know what was driving the behavior. But part of me feels like there's a scenario here where it's like she had this relationship with, like her identity being pinned to some of these records, and that's such a hard thing to do because they're going to get broken. They just will. Like they don't last forever, and now they're going to get broken quickly. Like we're just not going to see records stand long at all. So if you start making your identity records and you make your identity holding a record versus being a part of this process of advancing the sport, you're going to find yourself in a really miserable spot. You're going to find yourself online disparaging people, and it's just going to be a really rough, I think, scenario to put yourself in. So I think, like if there's something for us to learn as a community, it's like, let's learn to really, really be reflective of, like, what is what are we actually getting from these things of value outside of like the ribbons and rewards and that side of things and try to like celebrate that too, because it's and we do do that in ultrarunning. I think to a large degree we celebrate a lot of things. but really making that something that people feel comfortable with so that, or not make someone feel like, oh, you were the record holder and now you're kind of nobody like, I don't like that. That would be sad if that's how she felt after seeing that happen. but, you know, I think you get my point. I'll let you say what you want to say about it. Yeah. I mean, like you said, a lot of things that I agree with 100%, for sure. And, you know, I do like, really hope that, you know, Camille and Connor come out and, you know, take like, not take ownership in the sense that like, they need to atone, but it's just like, hey, like we will welcome you back. You know what I mean? Like, I think I think the ultrarunning community is very forgiving enough to the point that we can come out and be like, okay, we get it. Like if she explains herself and all the things said, yeah, but we won't do this again, like people will. And she is one of the greatest runners of our time. Like there is nothing that's taken away from it. Like, I heard Brett Hornick talk about this, and he was saying she was like, Camille didn't need to do anything that she was doing to be considered one of the best of all time, because she is like, she totally is. And, you know, I, I really hope she does like, you know, kind of come out and, you know, tries to make peace with things too. And obviously, like, you know, probably makes it a lot harder that, you know, she got dropped by the sponsor Lululemon and she was like the flagship athlete for the running division over there on the women's side. Right. Like and. I got, I get it. It's probably a really, really tough place to be. But it's one of those where, you know, I think we got to get into. But, you know, I think you raised the really good overarching point and that it's like it's not about the records. It's not about, you know, the accolades and stuff like that. Like, think about it like this. Like almost just as many people show up for like the DFL in these big ultramarathons and they do the first place person. Yeah. And watch golden hour at any of these big races. Right. It's like almost the same amount of people. And I think that's such a cool thing because, you know, someone told me this quote once, I can't remember who exactly it was, but it's always stuck with me, is like when people see you and it's not about, again, what people think of you, but it's like when people get inspired by someone. It's not necessarily like the results they get. It's about how hard they try. Right? And I think it's so awesome because it's like, here's someone who's like DFL in a race, like on the list of the official results is last place. But everybody's there cheering him on and everyone says they're an inspiration and they are like, they are inspiring. I think there's people who are back in the pack who are super, super inspiring and it's like, if you can just see that, it's like doing the best you can on that day is like the coolest thing ever. And it's like, yeah, like maybe, maybe your record gets broken, maybe it gets taken away. But it still doesn't take the thing that you got a world record, right? Like one of the reasons why I came to you, Zach, to work with you is like you. You broke the world record for fastest hundred mile time. At the time it went to you, it wasn't. You didn't have the record. But I still see that. And I'm like, that is awesome. You know what I mean? Like, that is so cool to put together that. And it's like, doesn't matter if it's still standing or not. It's like you did the thing like that's what counts. Right? Like if you go ahead and like, you know, pin Scott Jurek or you know Andreasen, right? You put them out in a race today like, you know, they're probably not going to be at the top of the field. Does that mean that they weren't one of the greatest of all time? Absolutely not. Like Scott. And the sport wouldn't be there without those two. So I think, you know, I hope that as the sport gets more popular that people start to realize that. And, you know, I think it's inevitable, right? Like you look at a lot more things in the marathoning world and, you know, track and field, there's a lot more scandals like doping and other stuff that kind of comes out. And I think that's what happens. It's like when the bar raises, you know, sometimes people not saying this is different in Camille's case, but maybe like there's a lot of similar driving factors. It's like being the best. Like what do I have to do to make that perception right, whether it is editing Wikipedia pages, doping, whatever. Right. Like I think it's unfortunately an inevitable thing that will come up in ultrarunning. Right. And yeah, I know, I know like we're at time two. But an interesting thing to think about is like you have an IPA doing drug testing for Javelina and for Desert Solstice, it's like. I don't know, like, you know, Jason Koop even says he thinks people are going to get wrecked out there. I'm not trying to make any claims on my end, but, like, you know, who knows what's going to come out and everything like that too. And it's a sad thing. But, you know, I hope I encourage, like anyone in the ultrarunning space, whether you're at the top or the the bottom of the list on a race, it's like, you know, be the best that you can and like find yourself worth in areas of that you can have, like internally and like I think that that's going to lead to not only a healthy individual look, but a healthy attitude in the sport that I hope that we keep as the sports keep standing popular, and more notoriety, more competition because sometimes it doesn't. And, you know, I'm hoping that's the case. Yeah, yeah, we're going to learn a lot and sometimes the hard way as we grow. And I think this is an example of that. Probably so. Exactly, man. Exactly. Awesome, Joe. Well, I know you have to get going, but it was great to sit down and chat and kind of cover some of the stuff that's happened in the last couple of months. I look forward to maybe getting on with you again after having Lena and chatting about anything that happens between now and then. 100%, man. Yeah. Excited to chat after Javelina. And then we'll have Desert Solstice season coming up and lottery season coming up. So a lot of people pick and race schedules. So it'll be a fun time, Zach. But I'm looking forward to seeing you and Nicole out in the desert. Best wishes to Nicole out there. on the day and there. She knows that course very well and has done very, very well out there. So, I'll be rooting for a big time out there. It's gonna be awesome. Yeah, well, we'll be cheering for you out there as well. And just before you go, where can people find you everyday? Ultra podcast coaching, social media. Yeah. Thank you so much. So everyday ultra podcast. You can find podcasts wherever. I'm best to reach out to Joe Courson on Instagram. all this stuff is if you're ever interested in, you know, coaching any of that stuff too, just shoot me a DM. And, I always say this too. I have to say, you know, the reason why I'm a coach today and as good an athlete as I am, is that I worked with the man on the other side of the mic here, Zach Bitar. So seriously, he's a great coach, a great guy. You're listening to the podcast, so obviously, you know, you're already someone in his world too. But, you know, Zach might be some haters out there listening in here. Oh, yeah. Just just editing both of our Wikipedia pages or something like that. I don't even have one. Not yet. Not yet. But I can't make my own, apparently. Or else I don't. Yeah, don't do that with someone else. Yeah. Awesome, man. Well, thanks so much, Zach. All right, Joe, take care. See you man.