Episode 411: Adam Popp - Lost Leg to World Records

Adam is a 12-year combat veteran of the Air Force with deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan as an Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD) team leader. In 2007, while working to disarm a roadside bomb (IED) in Afghanistan, Adam was injured by a secondary IED resulting in the amputation of his right leg above the knee.

Adam is now a seven-time Guinness World Record holder, became the first above-knee amputee to complete a 100-mile ultramarathon within 30 hours in 2016, has five 100-mile finishes, and set an amputee record time of 16:13:43 for 100 miles in 2024. Adam also has the fastest marathon time for an above knee amputee.

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Chapters:

00:00:00 A Life-Changing Moment in Afghanistan

00:09:28 The Challenge of Transitioning from Military to Civilian Life

00:18:00 Initial Thoughts After Injury

00:27:26 Adapting to a Running Prosthetic

00:36:33 Managing Amputee Runner Challenges

00:45:44 Nutrition Strategies for Ultra-Endurance Athletes

00:54:30 Transitioning from Low Intensity to Speed Work

01:03:59 Breaking Marathon Records with a Prosthetic

01:07:00 24-Hour Treadmill Attempt

Episode Transcript:

I'm excited to talk to you. I was glad you reached out. I was actually wondering if we maybe crossed paths, and when I was looking at some of your stuff, I was thinking, I think I might have actually met you at JFK one year. What year did you do JFK? I've been there. My first year was 2017, and I've been there pretty much every year since. Outside of 2022. Okay, cool. Yeah. So I probably was there the same year you were in 2019. Okay. I've Yeah. done Yeah. JFK three times, but I did it pretty early a couple times, 2011 and 2012. And then it took me a while to get back. But in 2019 it was the next time. But, Yeah. I was totally there then, so I'm. That's funny. Yeah, Yeah. yeah. I mean, I want to get into, like, your entire story and everything because it's just, like a fascinating story and just an achievement in general. But, maybe we can just kick things off with you giving the listeners a little bit of a background on kind of what you what your kind of early life was like, that kind of kind of led you down the path you're heading right now, and then we can dive into some of the exciting things you've been up to over the last few years. Yeah. Cool, great. I grew up in a really small town in southern Indiana, so not a lot of exposure outside of those 450 people. and then at the age of 18, I joined the military. I was in the Air Force, and at the age of 19, I ended up in northern Japan, which was a complete culture shock to me. You know, just as you can imagine, a 19 year old kid going from a small, non diverse town to living in a foreign country with people who speak a foreign language. It was just really an eye opening experience for me. And I think I really set the stage early from that point in my life, to really embrace challenges, to be able to, like, work through challenge and, and learn from other people and a very different environment than I was used to. So, you know, those first six months, I was very scared, culture shocked, you know, not not really understanding or knowing what to expect. But after the six months or so period, I really embraced that and loved what I was doing and loved where I was at, loved who I was working with and interacting with. And for the next eight years I spent living overseas because of that very influential period of my life. So I lived in Japan for six years and in Korea for a year, and Turkey for a little over a year. and eventually came back to Little Rock, Arkansas, for my next duty assignment. And from Little Rock, I deployed to Afghanistan in 2007. and then I was doing a job in the Air Force called Explosive Ordnance Disposal, which is the men and women who go into combat environments and basically disarm roadside bombs. and we work with other hazardous explosive devices, but mainly in combat where, you know, removing and making safety's hazards from the battlefield so that local populations can live safely and so that our troops can have freedom of movement and not being, having the fear of being injured. And I did that job for, you know, 11 years. And during this deployment in Afghanistan in 2007, I was working on a device similar to what I've done hundreds of times before. and really, in an instant, there was a second device that went off that I didn't know about, and it really changed my life in that moment forever. Yeah, I mean, there's just so many directions I could go with that. I mean, Yeah. It's like, obviously it's life changing. when when you. I kind of want to get into just like the catalyst of that job in general. I mean, I'm aware of it, and I know there are people who do it. But what was it like when you were in the Air Force? Was it something where you signed up, said, I'll, I'll take that on? Or were you assigned to that type of a job? Like what was the lifestyle like kind of going into a day knowing, okay, I'm, I'm really working a pretty dangerous job in terms of just, was this something where every time you went in, you were like, all right, well, you know, this could go badly at some point. And there's kind of a zero mistake margin type of a profession. Or is it something you just end up normalizing to some degree until a scenario like yours happens? Yeah. Great question and great awareness. You know, when I entered the career field, it was 1997. I was an 18 year old kid. So as you can imagine, it was prior to the wars, prior to September 11th. and as an 18 year old kid, they gave me a list of jobs that, you know, I tested into or qualified for. And one of those was EOD. And as an 18 year old kid, like blowing stuff up and working with explosives and doing it sounded very cool at the time. and there weren't any, there were no wars ongoing. and it just sounded like a really incredible job for an 18 year old kid. And then I took that. I signed the sheet and then took it home to my parents, and my mom's reading it like, oh, works with weapons of mass destruction and nuclear devices. And my mom was like, what the heck did you get into? But, you know, as I entered the career field, I met a lot of incredible people who have been doing it for a long time and mentored me through that process. And we did an immense amount of training to be prepared for those scenarios, but there wasn't anything on the horizon at the time. So yeah, you're right. When 2011 or 2000 September 11th, 2001 kicked off, you know, we were put into those combat environments on the training that we had been doing for several years leading up to this. And as that started to happen, yeah, I saw people around me who I knew and had worked with being injured and, you know, unfortunately dying in some circumstances. And that started to really bring the reality around that of what could happen. And a lot of times going into at least during my first deployment was 2004, in Baghdad. And going into that environment. Yeah. You do think potentially if I make a mistake, I could, you know, end up giving my life? and that's what I signed up for. But, you know, it doesn't make it any less of a reality or challenge going into those environments. But in all honesty, I never imagined myself being injured to the extent I was and then having to live through that. And what was next after that. Right? So I think going into it, I was a little bit rose colored glasses going into it being like all or nothing, gray or white or black or white. but yeah, a scenario happened to me that I didn't expect in a million years. And in an instant, my life did change and change towards something I wasn't prepared, necessarily prepared for. and that's really where the work began of working through that and understanding what happened and, and kind of figuring that out, really. Yeah. I mean, it's just a really interesting mindset or psychology to me because when I think of just like. Sport and athletics in general. It's like you get these individuals who tend to be able to really kind of block out a lot or compartmentalize, or you'll see something happen in their life or, you know, just the, you know, the day to day of someone being like, super famous. If we're talking about, like, top tier athletes in the world with big name sports and things like that, and they just have this like ability to sort of just like turn everything off and focus on the task at hand and then go back to the, you know, whatever's there afterwards and deal with it. And I wonder about that with a profession like that to where you almost have to have that similar mindset of like, all right, well, this is the job. I know the risks that this entails, and it could be severe, but then once it gets you doing it, you sort of almost get into a state or a mental state of just focusing on that and not thinking about some of that stuff. I would imagine. Yeah, I think that's a great observation. It was very compartmentalized. And that is a benefit when you're in those tough environments. And I think it's a detriment when you're outside of those environments trying to like, have relationships and friendships and you're compartmentalizing and shutting off different parts of your brain so that you can survive in those circumstances. Right. So we hear a lot about post-traumatic stress disorder and people who have been in those situations, and our brain becomes very good at compartmentalizing and shutting things off that could affect us. Could affect how we do the job and keep us as safe as possible. And then really, that transition period, once you leave that environment and get back into society and transition after leaving the military, I think that's where it's a detriment, right. And to the point of those athletes, they become very good at it. And then once they transition past their career or after their career, I think it can be a learning experience to find out who they are after the career and what's next. And you hear a lot of a lot of talk about people retired and then trying to find their new purpose and their new Y and their new, who they are in that moment. Right. and I think that's happened for me in that scenario and happens for a lot of military members once they get back and transition out and try to figure out who I am now? And what do I do now? Yeah, that's a really good point. You have a similar scenario there where when you retire or you step away from whether it's a professional sport or the military, you're still relatively young in most cases compared to like the average retiree, where, you know, they may be at a point in their life where it's like, okay, I've got this transition, but I'm like, you know, in my 60s 70s maybe even. And then it's just like they're at kind of more of the twilight stages of their life versus being like, you know, maybe in your late 30s, early 40s and having a huge chunk of your life left in front of you and having to kind of like, yeah, reinvent yourself. It's a very interesting kind of scenario that just doesn't necessarily fit the mold of the society as the rest of society in a lot of cases. So those types of people oftentimes, I think, probably struggle to kind of fit in. Where do they it must kind of feel like you're jumping in to everyone else's lifestyle when they're already like, you know, like a decade plus two decades plus into it already and feeling like, okay, I gotta catch back up now and make up for the the time I was away, kind of because it's sort of a compartmentalized lifestyle. Yeah, totally. And you know we just had the Olympics and the Paralympics happen and those athletes trained for four years for that one Yes. day or one event. And you know and there's that pretty famous documentary called The Weight of Gold. And it talks about the life post-Olympic, you know, and kind of that down that down state or that depressive state after you've trained your entire life for this one event and it's over. And now what do I do now? Who am I now? What's next? And, you know, some people transition better than others. And, you know, for me, it took seven years to get to that point where I felt, you know, maybe as mentally recovered as I was physically recovered. and that was like a whole learning process in itself. And once I started to kind of figure that out, then I was able to start building on that. But, yeah, it took a long time for me personally to get there. Yeah. Have you? I think I saw on your website, are you affiliated with team Red, White and Blue? I. Yeah I am so they I mean we I would love to talk about them and they were a huge part of that transition. But what is your connection? Yeah. with them. I actually just had Mike Irwin on the podcast a few episodes ago, and I actually met Mike a long time ago. It was probably in like 2011 actually, after JFK 50 miles. He had reached out to me and one other one of the other runners there, David Riddle, and just said, hey, I've got this idea. I'm trying to kind of get into motion where we kind of create this community where we take like people from the running community and people who know a lot about running and the ins and outs of that community. And then we pair them with, veterans who are returning, you know, at that time, too, it was like there was a pretty big flux of, of, of men and women returning from like, Iraq, Afghanistan, and, and a lot of the stuff around that. So he put together a big camp down in southern Texas. that got really big, actually. I think at one point it had maybe a couple hundred plus people that would attend it, and it was kind of like a split between civilians and, and veterans and, yeah, he just moved. Moved that whole program so fast. I've stayed in touch with him ever since. So, I'm always, you know, I always catch my eye when I see the tmrw symbol on someone's page or here that they were affiliated with them in some shape or form. Yeah I love that and I love that organization. And I think maybe you're talking about Band of Runners and Lisa Howard. Is that the camp? Yeah. you're talking So about that camp or. actually had a little bit of a transition. It was originally just, Okay. I'm trying to think if they what they called it originally, it might have just been, the team rw, B name and logo, but then when they kind of grew and started kind of expand outside of just running and get into like all sorts of fitness and activities and lifestyle type stuff, they wanted to keep that going, but they wanted to kind of keep it in a little bit of a or do it a little bit differently than they had historically. And then they kind of transitioned it over to a band of runners is kind of what I've been told. Gotcha. Totally. And, you know, I think this is a good point to maybe talk about that transition Yeah. period of my life where, you know, I picked up my running prosthetic in April 2015. And, I was trying to look for those connections I had from the military, those like positive communities. And I connected with TMB. I was living in Washington, DC at the time, and just reached out probably 3 or 4 weeks into my running journey, and I was running really slow and just reached out to them and was like, hey, do you mind if I join you for a run? I'm really slow. I'm probably going to be back at the pack, but they welcomed me with open arms, and it's a lot of times it's less about running and more about that community building, as you mentioned, and the community connection between the military and the civilian counterparts that the military are integrating back into or reintegrating back into. And I think their organization does a great job of making those connections, and helping military members reintegrate into their communities and really understand that there are so many people there that can be a positive influence and be a positive part of your community once Yeah, you go home. yeah for sure. Were you a runner or an athlete before your incident? I hated running and I grew up playing soccer and mainly ball sports. which, you know, playing those sports, your punishment is to go running. so you grow to hate it. And then I had a friend who I played soccer with, and he invited me out to the track team, and I was like, I do not run like I hate running. And he was like, we're high jumping. We don't have to run that much. So I was like, okay, that sounds cool. so I jumped in long, jumped a little bit. and then, you know, you join the military and they're forcing you to run again, right? So it's the weekly physical training, the test that you're going out and having to run to, to prove your fitness standards. and it's just, again, forced on you and, I, to be honest, I just I didn't love it, I did it, I was okay at it. but, you know, in 2007, when that was taken away from me, or at least I thought it was taken away from me. It brings a whole new meaning to the ability to go run and the ability to just go do something that you take for granted almost every day. and in 2015, I started to grow, to love running. And then I really embraced it around that time. And, the more I did it and the more I realized the ability to do it and that it wasn't taken away from me, it was more a self-imposed limitation for those seven years. I really embraced it and just became grateful for that ability to go out and run again. and from there, it's just been, you know, a constant in my life over the past nine and a half years at this point. Yeah. When it first happened was there like a shock period when obviously the explosion and you, you know pretty quickly I would imagine that something's wrong and you need help. But as you're kind of going through those hours and maybe days, what are you thinking about during that. Are you even considering next steps or are you just kind of in shock? I guess. There's so much unknown, and I think In Shock is a great way to put it. the unknown, the uncertainty. as I mentioned previously, that wasn't something I imagined in a million years, that outcome. So there's so many thoughts going through your mind while you're laying in the hospital bed those first few days and first few moments because I was awake through my entire incident. And yeah, I think uncertainty unknown, shock, all those are great ways to put it. And the mental thoughts and emotions that are spiraling through your mind are countless. And, for me, none of those really look like, am I going to be able to run or do anything? Like, I thought maybe I was going to be in a wheelchair I like. I had no idea at that point. but we really first started to come to realization when I got back to Walter Reed. Had 2 or 3 surgeries in Germany after my injury, you know, amputated my leg, some surgeries to basically stabilize me and get my arm in a good place, because I had some arm injuries on my arm as well. And then when you get back to Walter Reed, you're seeing other individuals who had had similar experiences, and they're in the physical training area, the PT area, walking, and some of them are running and some of them are cycling and rollerblading and, just doing, you know, a wide range of things that are, that then you start putting the pieces together. Oh, I can see concretely what this person who is six months out from the same injury that I have, what they're doing at that moment. So then I think that really got the wheels turning off, okay, maybe there is some hope, maybe there are some things that I'll be able to do that I didn't necessarily expect when I was day one in the hospital bed. And that's when I really started to, like, put the pieces together and start to think more about the long term as opposed to, okay, I'm just surviving. Yeah, that's interesting at this point. to think about because my, my first thought was just like, you're sort of on this maybe dark solo journey where like, it's like you probably don't know a lot of people that certainly not relative timeline in the same position as you are, but you're in a scenario where you're actually kind of almost seeing a scaffolding of just like, oh, like you said, this person is a similar situation six months out, so maybe that's a target or that person cycling. That person is rollerblading, that person's running. Maybe those are options that I have versus just thinking like wondering maybe like, is there anything for me after this from a physical standpoint, or am I going to have to just kind of be, in, in a situation I never imagined for the rest of my life? Totally. And there's like a good Is. and bad of being in Walter Reed. it's horrible that there were so many people there like me that were coming back injured, like I was, That but possible? The support and resources at that hospital were like no other, and I didn't really realize that until. I mean, I realized it at the time, but what really cemented it in my mind was the prosthetist who was making my legs. My prosthetic leg was also an amputee himself, and he lost his leg when he was 19 years old and was recovering in a civilian hospital. And most of the peers around him, or most of the other amputees around him, were older individuals who had lost their legs to, like, diabetes or, you know, circulation issues. And he said it wasn't for three years until he found her and met someone his own age. and he was, like, in a really dark spot. And as you mentioned, that isolation piece of being alone in that spot is one of the hardest spots to dig out of. And that's where he was, because he didn't have those people around me, like, like I did, or the support from organizations like I did. And that's what really kind of made a light bulb go off and go off in my head, wow, this, this is horrible. And I'm grateful for the people around me who can lead the way. Show me and others what possibility looks like. What, you know, six months or a year down the line, look like, and just do that in an authentic manner, and then me following suit to try to, like, play catch up with those folks who, Hmm. Yeah, really set I've the bar. I actually had a couple other guests on the podcast who are runners with prosthetics, and one thing I find interesting is, just like the different sort of scenarios where, and you can tell me if I'm off base on this, but from my understanding, like if you have a, like below knee. Prosthetic. That's maybe a little bit better because you still maintain the knee joint. And then above that is obviously you lose the knee joint. So you have one another kind of hurdle to get over with your running mechanics. And then you can also even have just a total leg removal where it's like almost a whole, the prosthetic is like a socket. That or like a sort of like a, I don't know what like a cradle that you kind of would put. What would be the socket of your leg in, or the ball of your, of the leg into the socket type of area. And from what I'm told is like there's those key points that are kind of like the more you can preserve of those that typically the better. but yours is above the knee. Correct. That's correct. And that's a great generalization and summary of you know the longer the limb the better outcomes. You'll have to be a runner or just an able Yeah. to ambulate So day to day. with when, when you first got the prosthetic, was there, was there any sort of like strategy that you had where you're thinking at that point, okay. First I learned to walk with this, then I got comfortable with that, then I can start to jog. Was there any there was? I'm guessing maybe the people you're working with had some sort of a, like, timeline where they said, like, like I can I just think of like, if I come back from like surgery or something like that, they'd probably say, well, don't go for a run the next day, maybe do this first. Like, what was that like kind of. Yeah, Yeah. yeah, And yeah. you How totally much of ignore it did you all ignore? of that, Adam? right? Yeah. yeah. I had an interesting recovery because I also broke, Okay. my femoral neck in my hip. and I had, like, a screw in my femoral neck. And then I had necrosis in my femoral head, which was basically the bone not receiving enough blood supply. So my bone was dying. The femoral neck was broken. I had two screws in my femoral neck and had a rod down my femur. So all that being said, I had a different outlook than some of the other people, and mainly that meant weight bearing or the delay of wearing a prosthetic. So there was a progression in a step that they put most people on, but it's kind of dependent on their specific scenario or case. And for me, it felt forever. I think it was like four months before I wore a prosthetic, which seems like a long time when you're watching other people who got there after you start to walk and you're frustrated. but in the whole scheme of things like what's an extra week or two to make sure it's done right? So for me, I had all those breaks and basically I started wearing a prosthetic and they put me on this table where I would only bare, like, 60% of my weight. and then, you know, a week later, I could bear, like, 70% of my weight, and then a week later I would bear. So it was a gradual gradual increase until those bones healed. and then, yeah, it's walking with a walker and then walking with crutches and then walking on your with a cane and then walking on your own. and it's a pretty slow progression early on. and then basically I spent a year there in Pete perfecting that. And at the time I wanted to try to, to do everything I could before. So that included running, which even though I hated it before, I wanted to at least try it out. but because of those issues I mentioned earlier, specifically the necrosis in my femoral head. They said, no, no high impact sports for you. So I skied and I scuba dived and I cycled. but really my running career and journey stopped basically like May or June of 2008 Yeah, I would imagine too. It's not an injury. just like, oh, I gotta figure out how to use this prosthetic. It's also like from the timeline that you're removed from really doing any sort of rigorous activity. Certainly with your lower, lower half of your body, you're also retraining every muscle in your leg that is still fully intact. The muscles that are in the leg that is, is, has the prosthetic on it. So you really are sort of starting kind of from square one from an atrophy standpoint just in general. So. When you first did kind of start getting, I guess, comfortable just having the prosthetic and thinking about running. Did you think like, all right, my goal is to do an ultramarathon or was it just like any type of running I'll take as a win? And then once we get that, I'll start building from there. Yeah. Not in a million years, did I? I didn't even know about the ultramarathon until maybe a year and a half after my end. Or after I started running. yeah. My goals early on were. And that's a great observation, too, because for me, my running with a prosthetic came seven years after wearing a normal day to day walking leg. And, you know, if we go back to that, that progression of walking, you know, crutches, walking, and then walking freely without any support. yeah. You are retraining all that. And for seven years I trained how to walk with a normal day to day walking prosthetic. and then when I got into running seven and a half years later, I put on my running prosthetic for the first time, and it felt completely abnormal to me. and I was having to relearn that process of running with this very lightweight, unstable, unsafe running blade. Whereas, you know, for seven years, I walked on a microprocessor knee that had a computer in it, and it was very smart. It helped your gait. It helped if you took a misstep and it just was ingrained in me to walk that way. And now, seven and a half years later, I'm putting on this very unstable running blade and, you know, a win for me. And I love how you put wins, because those small wins, really. I mean, they just felt so incredible at the time of putting this on. And my first day I spent what they call a solo step. So it's a harness connected to the ceiling, and you run around a 200 meter track, and if you fall, it catches you. And my gait looked really weird. I was like, skipping it first and trying to, like, my brain was working overtime on how to, like, work this thing, because I'd worked another muscle memory for seven and a half years, and I kind of got the hang of it after maybe an hour. and then, you know, it was to take it home and then you don't have this support, this harness anymore, and it's going out and going in a parking lot for me and trying to, like, figure it out on your own and reinvent those muscles, You. that muscle memory, which took a long process. And then a small win for me was running a three mile race like six weeks later. And that's what my early years looked like. And like I said, early weeks looked like. And like I said, I had. I worked up to a marathon and then I was like, that's it. That's what runners do. That's like the ultimate pinnacle. It's like, there's more and then this, I guess. out about ultra marathons. Yeah. And am I right? You're the first 100 mile finisher with a prosthetic. Am I getting that right? Gotcha. Yeah. Above the knee. So as you mentioned earlier, the distinction between baloney and above knee. There had been several, I say several, but a handful of baloney amputees. Chris Moon, Dave Mackey lost his leg after. But Chris moved to Badwater. And there's another guy who did Badwater, back in the 90s and then Amy Winters. And, you know, there's maybe 5 or 6 below knee amputees. And then during my research, I was really trying to reach out to those folks to, to understand, what it's like and how to be successful running, running those distances as an amputee. and I couldn't find any other above knee amputees, but those people who I just mentioned really provided me a lot of good, information and feedback and resources to be successful. When I Yeah. started trying Another to try big steps to accomplish this. kind of figuring out what it is you're gonna try to challenge yourself with I imagine would be kind of stepping off the road. So like I've, I've been, I've been to JFK as we were talking about before, I know what that Appalachian Trail section is like. And, that must have taken some work, I would imagine, to get confident enough to want to sign up for a race like JFK, where that first 13 miles, you know, you go over the Appalachian Trail and there's some technical sections, some switchbacks in there. There's lots of rocks, unstable footing and things like that, things that I would imagine just add a whole nother layer of complexity when you have a prosthetic. So what was that like? When did you get to like a marathon first before you ever got interested in trails? Or was that something that kind of happened in parallel with your road running, your sub ultra road running? Anyway? Yes, similar. Similarly to what I mentioned earlier, I said no trail running for me early on in my process because yeah, the roads I worked up and the roads felt comfortable. and then if you're familiar with the North Face Endurance challenge in DC, they have 50 miles, I think a marathon and a 10-K, maybe a half marathon too. But, in 2017, my friends invited me to do the 10-K there, and it's on trail. And I was like, no thanks, that sounds horrible for all those reasons you just mentioned. Right. It's. It's the complexities of not being able to feel the ground, along with a mechanical knee that is not stable. and then, you know, roots and rocks and all those other added challenges. And I said, never, I will never do this. But, you know, as you embrace this growth mindset, as I was kind of experiencing at the time, I slowly started to, to enter that world, and try this out. And as you try things out, you get better at them, as I've learned over the years. and then. Yeah, then fast forward to November of that year. I did Stone mill, 50 miler. and then JFK on subsequent weekends. And Stone Mills got a little bit of elevation, but the rocks and roots there, I fell probably more than any ultra I'd ever fallen or ever done before. And then you get to JFK six days later and you're on the At, as you mentioned. And I'm like, what did I get myself into? the technicality and rocks. And I said, never again am I going to do this. and the cumulative fatigue was building up and I was cramping and just having this, like, miserable time. and then finish JFK. And long story short, I've been there six times since that first time, you know? So, I think. Yeah. Taking, you know, embracing these challenges and learning and growing through them has kind of been this whole journey of mine over the past nine years. And JFK seemed super difficult in 2017. And now as I go back, I, I enjoy being there, I enjoy running Yeah on I the 80, bet. and No I kidding. I definitely enjoy getting off the 18 curious on that because, towpath. I mean, with trail running, it's like it's not a question of whether you're gonna fall or not. It's like, when am I going to fall and how am I gonna respond to it? So like, I'm just trying to wrap my head around, like, what it was like going out for some of those trails. runs, knowing eventually I'm going to trip on something and fall was there. Did you have any sort of experience that would have maybe highlighted like what that was going to be like and what you were going to do when it happened? Or was it sort of something you just had to wait for it to happen and then kind of figure it out for the first time and then start piecing together kind of strategies around those circumstances. Yeah, it happened early in my road running training, as you can imagine. Like learning this new, this new skill. And I felt, I wouldn't say often, but occasionally when I was road running, you know, I think the tricky part is when you're trail running it, you're often in very remote locations. So I never wanted to do my biggest worry was not falling and getting back up and keeping on going. That's typically what I envisioned. My biggest concern is like, what if my prosthetic fails in this scenario? And I'm like, so remote that somebody's having to, like, come get me out? Or if I do fall and hurt myself and then I'm just putting people at risk. And I think about that on one hand and on the other, like, able bodied runners have that happen to you. Right. So, I think the biggest concern is, yes, I do probably fall more often. And, you know, I've learned over the years to just. Get back up, check myself off and check myself out and keep going. but one thing I've had to worry about, probably more than others, is what if I have an equipment failure? And, you know, I. I'm in the middle of nowhere. And how do I get out of this circumstance? So, you know, I carry tools with me. one of my screws came loose at JFK one year, and luckily, I had an Allen wrench with me to, like, tighten my knee back down. I've carried, like, different foot soles for technical or road running, and Yeah. No, typically I would imagine carrying backup there's components like for I mean, every there's race enough I go variables to. and uncontrollable and ultrarunning in general. And then trail running usually adds more of those. And then you've got that whole other set of potential things that you have to have to manage along the way. Is there a, I guess, maybe a timeline or distance where you have to, like, take the prosthetic off and do any sort of maintenance with just the way it's attached. Or is that something where, you know, in the best circumstances? I mean, I think of it like almost like a shoe change in ultra where, like I tell a lot of my coaching clients, like, you don't necessarily have to like, change your shoes on a schedule, but if you feel like something's wrong and you have that option, it's one of those better to have it and not need it type of situations. Is that similar to prosthetics? Are you switching that out during different phases of the race, or taking and taking care of that area in any way? Great observation and great analogy. So similar to probably what you mentioned. Each individual athlete you coach is different on the schedule. They might need to change or check in on their shoes. It's similar to me and other runners with amputations. So for me I have an incredible system that, you know, I can run 100 miles or 24 hours and have never taken my leg off to manage sweat or blisters or, or any skin breakdown or something similar to, like the shoe changes you mentioned. I do check in with it to make sure, you know, try to like, head it off early. As you know, as you mentioned, with other able bodied runners. but for me personally, I just have a system that works really well for me. And I do talk to other amputees who do have to, you know, their volume changes, which is a major concern. So, you know, their leg volume will shrink. So then they have to add what they call soccer to that to fill out. So it fits within the socket portion better. so there are those concerns: the breakdown, the blisters, the sweat like all those concerns. but I've only experienced that one time in my career where I transitioned to a new socket and it just didn't fit well. And as you can imagine with the analogy of shoes, if you get a shoe and it doesn't fit well, you can throw those out and get another pair and hopefully those are better. But for me, it's a little bit more of a medical process of getting that fitment right. And Yeah, once it fits, I can imagine it. great. But when you have to change it, what it's, it can after a challenge. you did JFK or you, you said you did a couple 50 milers. When did you first think? All right, I think 100 miles is something I want to tackle. Well, Okay. I kind of got my timeline out of sorts, but I did, so I started running in April 2015. I worked up to a marathon in November that year. Richmond Marathon. so within eight, eight months, and then I thought, as I mentioned earlier, this is the pinnacle. This is like the top of the running, you know, distances. And I thought that for a long time. And, and fast forward to the summer of 2017, I hadn't really been focused on training for anything. And I met I was on a service project in Chicago, and I met a lady who just was If. accepted the Leadville 100 and she was telling us runners, right? And so she was like, telling me about this race. And I was like, totally mind blown. Like I had no idea. And then I was asking her about what her training schedule looked like and what her programming looked like, and she was telling me and walking me through this, and my mind was just like, what the heck? and that was the first time I learned of that in the summer of 2017. And then I went to work and did some research and was like, all right, what does the program look like? And, you know, would I be able to do this program? And, you know, over the next week after learning about this, I had this big goal of better understanding it, putting together a plan, picking a race on the calendar and then working towards that plan to see how far I could get along. and, you know, once I was about three quarters of the way through it, I was like, all right, I'm going to sign up for the race now. It was Brazil. Spent 102,016. again, I got my timeline off, ran the marathon in 2015. The summer of 2016, I learned about the 100. And then in December 2016, I ran Brazos. Been my first hundred. and that Wow. was So like you 19 really didn't waste months from too much time the day I got strapped into my hundred running miler, prosthetic I guess. for the first time. I jumped from the Richmond Marathon to Yeah. the Hunter miler. So Yeah, that has to give you some confidence. a Then little I guess bit with some of the 50 with mile 13 stuff months in between those. it's like you've already done something twice as far. So coming down to that, it's probably more of a question of just terrain specifics because, you know, Totally. Brazos is a little friendly. It's more like the towpath at JFK for that race, but it's twice as long, so there's just more time for something to go wrong, of course. like that. So, yeah, that's true. Did you browse the year? Was the weather pretty good that year? Because it can get pretty sloppy out there some years. Yeah, it was good that year. In 2016 I went back and this year this January. And, you know, it's originally in December. They had really bad wet, wet rain, and rainy weather there. And they closed the park down in December. So then they delayed the race by a month. And then January 6th came around and it rained again and closed the park down. So Yeah. they moved the venue to where they hold the habanero 100, which is I don't know if you know anything about that race, but hot. Sandy, miserable. but it was in January, Yeah, but not yeah I'm filming the typical we're in Brazos Austin so course I've that actually been you to both know, those courses that, you know. a couple of times. So I'm familiar with the terrain. But yeah the Brazos course would be a little nicer I would imagine for you in general unless it gets really wet in which case. But that could happen at the other. The other course too is that's actually a question I was going to ask you about too. Are there some considerations you have to make that are outside of what any runner would do, like, oh, if it's going to rain, I got to be more mindful of this or this is now going to be something I have to be concerned with that it wouldn't have been otherwise. You know, rain. I actually recently started wrestling my prosthetic side with some Vibram soles. They come from a prosthetic manufacturer with a really basic road sole on it. and more recently, I've. And they wear out pretty quickly within, like, 300 miles. So I go through a ton of them. But what I found recently is just pulling those off and then reselling them at a local cobbler here. but I think the other big thing. So that helps tremendously on the A.T. and the rainy sections. but I think the biggest thing I, me personally, that I have to keep an eye on is from a nutrition standpoint that might differ a little bit. And, you know, I'm using more energy. so I have to stay on top of that a little bit better. and I can still only consume and absorb so many calories or whatever per hour, you know, same as anybody else can. I'm just using it a little bit more, more than the normal able bodied Yeah, runners. So I just, that actually I don't know, I found that I got to stay on the interesting top of that point or else too, it is like spirals I mean, pretty quickly. like your efficiency is obviously going to be different with the prosthetic. So is there, are you doing like a metabolic task to kind of determine anything about, like your nutritional needs that you've been able to do specifically or has that been just kind of trial and error figuring that out? I've done some VO2 testing on the treadmill and like metabolic consumption rates on the treadmill. I don't know how that necessarily compares to what my able body, self would be. There's a handful of, like, large studies out there that say we, like amputees in general, use about 30% more energy and metabolic consumption. But I think the overall picture is a little bit more than what the typical person wears, and Yeah. also that I can still only consume and absorb the same amount as, you know, you might be able to. So there's just Yeah. a little bit Your consideration of your error that I'm margin using more and from just having to stay on under top of it, fueling because I am just going to only be able to take going in so to be much a little as well. tighter. That is, do you target a certain amount of like grams of carbohydrate per hour during. I guess it probably depends on the race distance and intensity to some degree. But do you Exactly? have a framework that you like to follow. Yeah, I've been trying to play with that more recently, because I know there's a lot of research that came out within the past year or two of even bumping it up to 120g. so I've been trying to play with that. And I think before I was probably under 80, which is again, kind of points out that I need to stay on top of that more. but more recently I've been trying to push towards 120g, and it's Yeah. hard for me. Yeah it's not a good question. What do you mean I think like suggestions the way or, I look at what it works for you like or how much you do, but. You can get on a metabolic heart test and get an idea of the ratios of carbs to fats that you're metabolizing at the intensity that you're going to race at, then you can kind of start putting together at least some ballpark numbers of what number you'd maybe want to try to defend. And, you know, like, I think these big numbers like 120, I would say that's I mean, granted you're, you're skewing maybe up to 30% higher. So it may be that you would get up, get up to that number from a need standpoint. But I would say most of the stuff I've seen that would get up to 120 is typically people overshooting what they actually need, out of the hope that it's like there's maybe some potential, like performance advantage outside of the actual like like liver and muscle glycogen attributes to carbohydrate intake. And so they're like, well, you know, a lot of this is borne out of cycling. So they get this scenario where these guys are looking for fractions of a percent margin improvement to, you know, move from like 10th to the podium or something like that. So for them, it's like getting from 100g to 120g could be that solution. Even if their body only technically needed 100g or something like that. they're also cyclists, so like, there's only been one person I've actually seen in ultra running. I'm sure there's others that I'm just unaware of, but David Roche hit like 120 to 130g at Leadville for around 15 hours. And he said that he didn't think he'd be able to sustain that for much longer than 15 hours. So there's going to be like a timeline, which to some degree. You know, like the longer you go, the lower the intensity is gonna get, and then the less carbohydrates that are going to be required. So you can probably scale back enough and make it sustainable just by like the, the, the, the additional length taking some off. but to kind of go back to what I was saying, generally speaking, like if you could determine what the intensity is you're going to race at and then figure out roughly how much energy you would be burning per hour there, you could probably ballpark like what? Let's just say like it's a 5050 split between fat and carbohydrate. And you're at a point where every hour your body's going to require 800 calories to, to, to just, like, keep that workload going, then, like, you would probably want to be targeting 400 calories per hour, which would be like roughly 80g or something like that. So yeah, so, so like the hard part with you is probably because normally I would look at this sort of through pace to some degree, because I would think it was someone who's covering, let's say someone's going like between 8 to 10 mph. They're probably going to need like around a thousand calories per hour from a workload standpoint. And then you can start running those numbers. But if you're like 30% higher at a given pace, then like essentially any pace you're doing, you're going to have to plug in what someone is going , maybe a couple miles per hour faster than you would typically need. So you sort of have this scenario where whatever pace you are going, you need fuel, like the person going a couple miles per hour faster, but you're going to be out there longer because you're still not, you're not going as fast. So then it's like, is there a threshold of digestive tolerance and things like that that kind of come into play? So, I Yeah. think generally Yeah. speaking, like, yeah, getting your gut prepared to be able to tolerate a lot is is not a bad idea, because then if you it's another one of those things where if you, you have it and don't need it, that's probably better than not or needing it, not having it kind of a scenario with that sort of stuff. But, I mean, we could pin down your number. it would actually probably the, the, the bigger step would or the next step would probably just be like determining what you're going to do, because I would imagine for like the marathon versus the hundred mile, you're, you're, you're up and in intensity spectrum. And then there is an efficiency change. Is that linear? Is that like 30% on top of any intensity or does it get even greater the faster you go? Or do you get maybe a little more efficient the faster you go? Those are other variables that would be interesting. that I don't know that maybe you do, or maybe nobody does. And you could be the first person to figure it out. Yeah, well, I think there's, you know what you said about the shorter the event, you know, the larger the margin of error that you can have there. And then I also like what you said about training the gut, because that's what I was trying to do ahead of that 24 hour event I did in February. And again, it's been trial and error for me. So, you know, I think before I was erring on the low side and now I was trying to overshoot, as you mentioned, because the potential to use more, and maybe have a little bit of excess if, if, if a, if able to. but what I found out in practice through, you know, I was doing, I was doing the gut building, if you will, for three and four and five hours. But then when you get to that 7 or 8 or ten hour mark that you mentioned with David Roach, that's when I was like, oh, this is too like I can't sustain this. similar to what he said at the 15 hour mark. Right. So I learned that through practice. Yeah. in February of that 24 hour event, and I got 8 or 10 hours in and Yeah. my gut was like, that is too much. And like, back it down and just change a little bit there. But so it's been something I've enjoyed too, like learning through experimenting. Right. So we can write all this stuff down on paper and have a good plan, but you don't really know until you put it into practice. And that's what I've done with the physical side, the mental side, the nutrition side, and trying to really, pin down what Yeah. works for me in specific scenarios. and Yeah. we only learned through that trial and error portion, right. So we can have the No best intentions doubt. Yeah. And best plans the going other thing into it too, it, but, like that you could consider putting it into practice if you did as to get a to whole, a different point where like a ballgame. you are collecting the data and you got a number of like okay this is what I would require to optimally perform and from an intake standpoint. And it just was like no matter how hard you tried, you just weren't getting that down. And that became a, a, a, like a hurdle to get over. I mean, fat oxidation rates are manipulable through a variety of different things. So like, you've probably more or less maximized your fat oxidation improvement from just training. so like, it's not like you're going to be like, okay, well, I can pull that lever harder. It's like, chances are you're probably already at that point in your career where your training has hit a spot where a whole lot more isn't going to move that much. but you could lower your carbohydrate intake in your daily diet and try to increase your fat oxidation rates, because that would also skew the carbohydrate fat metabolism you'd have across the intensity spectrum to some degree. And I mean, people get kind of goofy with this topic sometimes where they think it's kind of all or nothing and they'll be like, go, go on a strict ketogenic diet or eat all the carbs in the world. And it's really kind of more like a spectrum. So like let's say for. Yeah, like let's say, for example, you got on a metabolic cart, got the data and realized I'm just ten grams Totally. per hour shy of what I would optimally want to get in. And I'm like, every time I try to jam that much more in, I get a digestive issue or it's just not something that's working. You could probably move the needle enough with just a pretty minor carbohydrate reduction on top of what you're or compared to what you're typically doing to shift that fat oxidation just to a minor degree versus a massive degree. because you'd want to avoid any trade offs that could potentially happen from being too aggressive with that approach, too. but yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, this is the fun part about the sport, right? It's like there's, there's the, there's the, the, the variables that we kind of have some data on, but it's sort of extrapolated forward when you get into Hunter mile stuff. And then and then you get guys like David Roche is like, well, well, I'll try 130g per hour. And then you get everyone else who's like, well, I'll try a ketogenic diet or I'll try and then you. So you get a lot of these kinds of anecdotes and case studies and things that are like, kind of fun to kind of play around with at the end of the day. Yeah. Totally. And I did try to do a strict ketogenic diet and a lot of fasted runs back in 2017 when I was doing a lot of low intensity, in higher volume stuff, which I was still new in my career. And to your point, like building out that aerobic capacity, which worked well at the time. But then when you start adding more intensity, I, I had to go see a dietitian because I was just hitting the wall. and she was like, well, you need to start taking carbs in during your first workout of the day if you're going to work this hard or, you know, have this much intensity built into your programming. and that was like news to this was a newsflash to me. And I'm like, it makes Yeah. total sense now. But, you know, coming from where I was at from just running slow and not taking in a ton of carbs or if any at all, to doing higher intensity stuff and built like already having that fat oxidation and aerobic capacity, as you Yeah. mentioned, Yeah. I mean just my experience a huge shift too is like and if learning you have experience. like a background in like a lower carb farther ketogenic down in my diet career too. I Like it. when you So. do start bringing some carbohydrate back at least at first, depending on how much you stretch that back up, like it feels like it's pretty potent. So yeah. So it's like you're like, wow, this is like rocket fuel. And then like you said, if you're transitioning from like a, like a lower Yeah. Intensity Agreed? base building phase of training into, like a speed work development phase, or you're going to do a race that is a little more glycolytic, then. Yeah, then it becomes this really potent tool. but yeah, I did want to kind of ask you about that too, because like, your training progression, you started out just doing a lot of low intensity stuff, and then you eventually decided to add speed work. And what was that, like, kind of the transition into doing speed work. Did you have any, any sort of experience with more explosive stuff that let you know, like, this is something I can do, or was that all kind of like, I hope this works type of an approach and kind of playing around with it to see. Yeah. When I first started my running journey in 2015, I had. I didn't know anything about the sport. And I got connected with a triathlon training team in the D.C. area. and their main focus was heart rate training. So most of their work was low intensity, and which worked great for me at the time because I had no aerobic base. The hardest part about running for me wasn't wearing a prosthetic or, or, you know, my skin and everything was built up for the prosthetic, being able to wear the prosthetic for a long time. But I hadn't done anything aerobic in the past seven years, so I had zero base. I was like, I would run ten minutes and be completely wiped exhausted. So I really fell into their programming around heart rate and low heart rate and zone two training. I just started to see really big jumps quickly, from, you know, five and ten K in April May of 2015 to running a marathon and running pretty decently. And, I did my only speed work, I guess during that time was entering races and doing a half marathon or a ten mile run. For the most part, I was just running really slow. Which I was working at the time. But then I hit a wall, probably around 20, 17, 18. and once I started to build in speed work, then interval work, threshold work, that's when kind of those two worlds kind of, came together to really, get past that, that, that, that wall that was experienced in the, the, the time, you know, bettering my times and becoming faster. So that's kind of what the progression looked like, a lot of low intensity, higher volume for probably three years. And I was able to get better doing that. And then it wasn't until the past couple of years where I really started to focus on more intense workouts and building the other Yeah. systems. Yeah, that's You know, I mean, are others I anaerobic wouldn't have thought systems of this had that, you not mentioned the, the energy bounce me past that difference, kind of block but I was experiencing. that makes me wonder if like, there is also like a kind of like a threshold difference for you to where you have like maybe, maybe, maybe not a threshold difference in terms of like you're still going to cross over an aerobic threshold, a lactate threshold, hit your VO2 max and things like that. But I wonder does that does that is the is the duration at which you're able to maybe build up to and sustain those intensities different at all compared like when you're working with the other triathletes, was there a mismatch there in terms of what they would normally target versus what they would kind of start you with? Or was there just like a battery of fuel tests and things you would do to kind of determine that? I mean, I think for that example specifically, it was all based on max heart rate and percentage of max heart rate. So I think for me it wasn't necessarily paces, but if I was hitting 75%, you know, 78, 80% or less, you know, that was kind of my ballpark of what my zone two would look like. so I think, you know, to your point of the pace is my pace is probably much different than what it would look like for those other athletes. but since we were working specifically on heart rate, Here. I don't mean, Yeah. I felt And like then especially from there. keeping Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. to run, was probably similar to my able bodied peers. And that's no, no, no, no, totally. And what Yeah I was going to say, and that's what like I heart based rate and it perceived off on for, effort just in general you because know, years then it's and like years. from there And you can now kind of look it's at pace less about as a heart moving rate target. and more about those And paces that you can kindly mention. to determine whether you're heading in the right direction or not where you know, your 70% of max heart rate. And what that feels like isn't going to change drastically. and then from there it's like, well, what is my pace doing in similar conditions at that? And if it's getting faster then you're doing something right. So. Right? Right. Which, like I said, I was totally new to the sport and I think it was a Yeah, good entry absolutely. point into kind of learning some of this. Cool. And Yeah. probably what I needed at the time is a lot of slow I volume do want to and take aerobic a little building bit of time here, time. just to kind of take a glance at just like what you've It all was done garbage and to, kind of maybe to what you be frank. coming up because, I mean, we talked about JFK and the Hunter might have done. But I mean, you've got like on top of being the first above knee prosthetic hundred mile finisher, you've also got like a few Guinness World Records. Can you just tell us a little bit about some of, like, the big achievements that you've hit on over your running career? And I was gonna say, I was just gonna say. And triathlon, I guess, to. Yeah. I mean I think that that is a pity. Go ahead. What was that? Me? Yeah. I mean, it feels crazy to think about it for ten years. Yeah. later, especially like, Flashing back to that early running with the harness around the hospital track. But yeah, 2016 was kind of that first 100 miler, that first big achievement. I, you know, I would call that of, breakthrough achievement for me. And I was super proud of that. And then from there, it just kind of started to get better with better training, better coaching. and really in 2021 or no, 2020, I ran Tunnel Hill, in under 19 hours for the hundred mile, which again was like, wow, what's next? and then on the 20th of February of this year, I ran a 24 hour race and got my hundred miles down to 16 hours and 13 minutes. so it's just been this kind of crazy progression of lowering that time over the years. So that's been a cool, you know, big achievement of mine. But I think just, all the other progression I made, like over a short amount of time, Yeah. equally as cool for me because, again, looking back to 2015, I never knew what an ultramarathon was, right? It was like it took me a year to even, like, realize what this stuff was. And then once I jumped in and I saw, like, my hard work paying off, I just kind of kept progressing to the point I am now. And you know what this past year has looked like was, you know, January This year I did that Brazil spin, as we mentioned, and then six weeks later I did the 24 hour, which that hundred mile time and then Boston Marathon and saw lower times there and then the London Marathon and saw lower times there. and it's just like, what's, what's next? Like, what else am I capable of? And how long have I been limiting myself with training and mental training and all the things that are leading up to kind of where I'm at now. So it's been a cool journey. This year has been one of the best yet. And, you know, you mentioned a little bit about triathlon and I think that's helped me get here too, because I was so focused on for a year and a half, making the Paralympics and competing in triathlon. And it wasn't necessarily a passion of mine. I did it because there were competitive opportunities. but once that transition happened, from realizing it was, almost causing burnout in a sense, I realized that in September last year and then came back to my passion of running and pursuing Yeah. running in this No community. I mean, I think I've just seen, always get excited when someone's my, targeting my whole fast life, 100 both, milers you and know, having on that course be a and goal, off but the course it sounds change. like you're you're still improving. So like that's got to be exciting to be able to kind of focus on not just one distance, but just knowing that, like whatever you pick to do next, you have the opportunity to do it faster yet than you have in the past, and you haven't necessarily kind of hit that ceiling at any point. Yeah. Yeah. And I think. Yeah. Yes. And what I would say is, I'm getting older now too. So I know those days are going to come where I'm going to start slowing down. And I, I'm trying to also realize, like, again, the immense gratitude I have for being able to go out and just do this thing that, you know, I thought I couldn't do for a long time. So yes, there's a competitive side of it too, but there's also this longevity point of Yeah. realizing the We ability to almost just go have out and too many options and run where, where, like, you run you out of know, time just to be a few competitive years ago, before I really didn't think squeezed that was possible. everything out of all of them. So embracing that while I can, you know. kind of like, which ones do I really want to figure out how fast I can actually go at and kind of focus a little bit more specifically on it, but I'm cheering for a sub 16 hour, 100 Write. mile for you. So. Yeah. Although you might have a little longer timeline with I, the hundred would love to mile it. or so, I maybe think I could the get there, marathon is if the as thing long to as take I do care it in the of next first. year or two, I think I could potentially get there, but, Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Where did you run it? Yeah. Just ran sub three there like ten days ago. So that was a big hurdle for me too. Or a big threshold for me too. So that was Washington state. There's a fast course up there called Tunnel Light. But, you know, I ran 308 and in April of this year I was like, all right, I got a full training block. I think there's potential to break three hours. And, you know, there have been maybe six amputees that have been able Yeah. to do that. No And, doubt. Wow. was kind. That's incredible. of a big threshold you dropped. for You most took people off over but especially eight minutes my community off your prior is, PR. you know, kind of, Okay. Wow. So, set yes, us you apart, probably I still guess maybe. have some room. I would imagine most people who can drop 11 minutes off their prior PR haven't Yeah. whittled it down quite 11. yet. So what's the fastest? What's the fastest marathon for someone with an above knee prosthetic? Oh, so you Yeah. have it. I'm sorry. Go ahead. That's the fastest for a single leg above the amputee. So Okay. I've. Yeah, I've owned that record since it was, well, probably like three 20s, but really, when I applied the first, the first time, I was at 313, in like 2019, 2020. And since then I've lowered it like 4 or 5 times. Oh. How much further? You can, it's been lower. brought it down from Lower. 313 Because you just had an 11 257. minute PR. and there was just something you just said I was going to follow up on, and I forgot. I'm sorry. yeah. So there's a little bit of trickery going on there because, the one I ran in May was after two 100 milers and then a marathon within ten weeks. So it had a lot of accumulates. Okay. I literally ran or, Boston Marathon on Monday. And then my fastest time was that next Saturday. 308 in London, six days after that. So there were like 200 milers and then a marathon. And then I went, went out and ran that marathon, which was so, so, you know, all Sure. things aside, Yeah, like well, taking out that cumulative I mean, you've got fatigue the fastest heading time already, into that race, so any improvement on probably that just could have made you run a little bit even faster. faster So it's yet? not necessarily 11 minutes, but that's what it says on paper. Yeah. Yeah, it would be. It'd be fun to see, like, how fast you could run a 50 miler at, like, a tunnel hill type course Yeah. and That's right. how much time is faster to focus. You can get on your hundred, maybe miler some of those and that sort of stuff too. like you mentioned. very cool. Awesome. Adam. Well, what? Why don't you let the listeners know kind of where they can find you if you've got anything exciting Totally. coming up? Yeah. yeah. All the stuff, socials, websites and that, that type of thing. Totally. so I have a website. It's just my name, Adam Pop. Com. And, from there, kind of links out to my professional services and then my running career. also Instagrams All right. EOD pop, on Instagram. And then kind of what's coming up next for me is in 19 days, I'm going to run 24 hours on a treadmill, and try to try to carry some of those, road Yeah. and trail running records over to Yeah, the treadmill, I haven't gone 24 which, on a treadmill, but I have gone 100 you miles know, I think in. Maybe you think I experienced 12 there 1209 as well. So any feedback you want to give me on now, on the thing that? that I would find, love to love to pick it's your brain, just but. another level of kind of monotony, but you can distract yourself pretty Right. well. So like, I think people when they get on these longer treadmills, they think that's going to be the biggest hurdle. The biggest hurdle I found is when you're running even on a short loop track or a really boring kind of one dimensional type area, you're still in control. So you like, make micro adjustments all the time. So even if your splits are really even, you're still kind of like controlling that with micro adjustments when you're on the treadmill, you're just responding to it. So it's almost like you're being told what to do the whole time. And for me, that was actually like a bigger kind of angst than anything. where I would feel after a while it was just like, I just had this, like drive to want to get off of it. And you can sort of like you can kind of manipulate that a little bit by just changing the pace frequently. So whatever your tolerability is , I would say rather than going in there thinking like, I'm going to pick this pace and set it and forget it, you can do that when it's tolerable. But I would say to keep an open mind about, just like using that, like whatever your target pace is going up above and below it, just so you kind of feel like you kind of have that semblance of control with the pacing a little bit more. another thing I did that you got to be careful with this. And, you know, just because treadmills only have such a long bed, but you can sort of also manipulate that if you have the same pace, just letting yourself kind of drift back a little bit and then like, speeding up a little bit. So you're going kind of from the front to the back of the treadmill. That sort of gives you that same perception of like kind of those micro adjustments even though you're covering the same distance. yeah. Weird little things like that. But, you know, I did a lot of things like music, some podcasts. We were live streaming it, and I had like a bunch of guest speakers coming in. So I actually tuned in to some of those for like a good chunk of it, too, because it's fun to hear people talking about, you know, what they were up to, and other things like that. So distractions are good. Being mindful of that kind of difference between doing, like just having that natural pace fluctuation and having to kind of like control it a little bit more are definitely the big ones. Oh, the other one is like testing your fluid loss on a treadmill before because. Whatever temperature feels decent is probably going to feel a little more a little more humid as you get going because you sort of build like this. I mean, the bigger the room you can get and the more fans you can get, the better, because then you're just blowing the heat away from you. But if you have, I did mine during the pandemic, so I was sort of relegated to a small room. And essentially what happened was like, I got this, like, microclimate of my own, like sweat and humidity around me. So. Yeah, and it was in Phoenix, too. So the outside temperature was like 100 degrees. And we had the air conditioner on full blast. Yeah. to like, what are the lows? The thermostat would let it get. Totally. And it was still like above 80 degrees in the room. So the more yeah, yeah the more you can manipulate Is. like or try to manipulate the environment through things like open space, big fans and things like that, the better you're going to be able to control yours. But the body was cooking regardless. What your setup is like, if you can get an idea of just kind of like fluid loss and stuff like that by testing your sweat loss rate on the treadmill, that's probably some useful information to kind of build out the hydration side of it. Yeah. Cool, I appreciate it. I appreciate that feedback. It's a good point about yeah. Changing up the monotony of it by pacing too. I love that because as you mentioned, I did that my only or my best maybe experiences running 24 hours on a track how this might relate. And yeah, to your point, you can just kind of like pull over or walk or whatever. And, you have a lot of flexibility there, even though it's in a very controlled environment. Yeah. whereas You especially can limit starting it. and Yeah. stopping the treadmill for me as above an amputee, like trying to And get going you said with that's a belt 19 and days. all that other stuff is miserable. So my plan is to not try to stop as much. and to your point, yeah, if I can limit it, all the better. Oh sweet. So. Yeah, October 15th, which is a Tuesday. I'm doing it at the Hoka flagship store in New York City on Fifth Avenue. Yeah, on Fifth Ave. So, with an organization called Achilles International. And, yeah, they've really supported me over the past ten years of my running journey. And they help athletes with disabilities across the nation and world, really pursue marathon and distance running. So, Yeah I know it sounds exciting. based out of New York. They've a live kind stream of people coming together to put this tune event in at. on. and I think hopefully I could show up and make them proud. Yeah. Yeah, we're going to do a live stream, and the official announcement has been delayed. but they're going to announce, I think, on October 1st. So maybe around the same time this podcast comes out. But there are going to be some links Right around on. Well, I'll. how to get involved if, if you're in the city or, live stream, if you want to join there, or just take part, if you're local as well. So they're going to. Oh, I was just going to say they're going to have another treadmill where people can come and run with me again to kind of break up that monotony. And, they're going to have hand cycles there for people who can't necessarily run, Yeah. or ambulate hand Everyone cycles watching and pushing will rims. Have fun. You will maybe have bouts of all fun, abilities can kind of come in and support, but maybe that's cool, do that workout you'll have people and be able to join in with you out there. some of the fun, cool. Oh, fun. yeah. I'll be sure to keep an eye open for the announcement and then put the links in that in the show notes. So if people want to check in and see how That's you're doing right. during that 24 hours, they'll have access to that. yeah. And then New Yorkers head over. Yeah. Another. Yeah. Yeah. Please do. Oh, you know, the more people, the better the more support, the better. help me take my mind off of that monotony, as you mentioned. And I was going to ask one question about your treadmill run. Did Yeah, you have, yeah, actually, we had issues quite with a few it overheating hurdles that or kind having of to get weren't off and maybe and as take apparent into to account the viewer that the, in hindsight, the I'm just like, limits I'm like of thankful the treadmill we actually you're got running the thing on? off the ground. That's like it was, it started actually with I was just like, I was going to be doing this 100 mile track race over in London called Centurion 100, and the pandemic came, so everything got canceled. And I was like maybe 4 or 5 weeks out from that race. So I had done most of the training. So I'm like, what's the most specific thing to attract that it could still do? So I was like, well, I'm just going to throw up a YouTube stream Right. and get on a treadmill and do it for 100 miles. And then like I told my sponsors about it and they were like, let's just, let's, let's make this bigger. And it just spiraled into this, like production essentially. So they ended up bringing in two treadmills that I had and I could go from each. So we were monitoring the distance separate from the screen on the treadmill. And so we had engineers in their caliber because like, you know, these treadmill records get really complicated because there's all sorts of things you're supposed to do. so, like, had I done it my original way, it wouldn't have been official at all. And, technically, I don't know that mine was official because I didn't have it open to the public because of the pandemic. But Yeah. there were, you know, there were people there. There was an engineer there. The treadmills were calibrated. All that stuff was taken care of. But the biggest issue we had was we had so much power running through that room with the live streaming equipment, the air conditioner. We had a separate unit air conditioner, the two treadmills that one of them would power off. So I'd be running there, and in the beginning it wouldn't the machine wouldn't turn off, the screen would just go blank. So I think it was like maybe within the first ten miles the screen went blank and I didn't notice it for like maybe 2 or 3 minutes. So I lost a little bit of distance there where I was still running, but I but the machine wasn't counting, wasn't tabulating anything for us to record. So as soon as I noticed that, I jumped to the extra one. And then we started that one up and they fixed that one. But then when I would switch to that one, the reason we had two was for just for a scenario like that, but also because Yeah. These treadmills were set up where they were going to power down automatically after three hours, and there was no way to override that. So the plan originally was every three hours. I'd switched treadmills just to eliminate the shutdown and repower up so I wouldn't be standing there for like minutes waiting for that to happen. I could just hop over in a couple seconds, later, get going again, and it ended up being just something where we needed the second one, because the other one was powering in and out. But eventually we solved that problem. We realized it was just that we were running too much power to that side of the house. We ran an extension cord. This was during the event too. I'm on the other treadmill. I tell my wife to cause it like there's a 100 foot extension cord in the shed. Can you go get it and try plugging it in on the other side of the house? Let's see if that fixes it. And that did it. So we must have been on like a different circuit breaker or something like that. because it worked fine after that and I was able to use both machines, but it was a little like that first, like 30 miles or so. There's a lot of kind of like kind of like, is this going to even end up working? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, right. And the punches are like what you become good at, right? So, you know, being able to adapt to those challenges in the moment is, you know, is kind of what, what performance is in a lot of cases. And yeah, similar to what you just mentioned, is working through all those like calibrations and everything of witness statements and measurements and all that. And I just did a local, run just to like, get all that together to make sure it's right. So when you submit it, we're doing that ahead of the October event, just on a very small scale to make sure all that's in line. But Yeah. There's so many Yeah. things Because that I I've don't learned think people through realize this process how, how just many details reading they go in the, which it makes sense reading when you think about the it rules though, because and the if guidelines, you just jump it's on a always random great treadmill to get feedback like from someone without like yourself it being of calibrated, how those things it works. can be In off reality, by you quite know? a bit. Like if you go to almost. Although commercial gyms are probably good at keeping their machines up to date and calibrated. But if you have a treadmill that you use at home and you don't have it serviced very often and then you go on another one, you can tell the difference in effort, especially if you're watching your heart rate because it's so controlled too. You said it. Say you said it's like eight miles per hour or something like that. And you look at your heart rate and you're like, well, on this machine, my heart rate is ten beats per minute higher than the other one. It's like there's clearly something off between the two. So. So yeah, there's all sorts of goofiness, but I think having a second treadmill is a good idea just in case. Because if, I mean, if you have a mechanic on hand and something goes wrong, they'll Yeah be able to fix it. But yeah. if it takes some 15 minutes to fix it, that's like, that's a fair amount of moving time that you miss out on. Right. So. Yeah, Yeah. Totally. Yeah. I yeah. learned a lot You'll over crush the past. It'll be fun to watch. a couple I'm excited for weeks, to like to follow them. into this. And I know it's just similar to what you just said. similar to Adam. to your Well, experience, thanks a bunch there's going to be something for that your pops time up, and but, sharing your story. It's, I'm going to let you know, it's always a good team there, motivating to hopefully help me work through it. about not just people running crazy races as fast as you have, but Yeah. doing Cool. them after all the circumstances that went into you even finding the sport. So, I appreciate you coming on the show. All right. Take care. Adam. Yeah. Very grateful to be here. And thanks for having me. Yeah. You too. Thanks.