Mickey, welcome to the show. As it's so great to be here. Thanks so much for asking me to come. Yeah. No, absolutely. I actually feel a little embarrassed that I haven't had you on at this point, because I think you had a lot of great information to kind of the topic we're going to hit on today, which is kind of the overreaching, one of low carb endurance, but a lot of cool kind of subtopics within that that, that are definitely worth unpacking. Yeah. Nice one and no need to feel embarrassed. Or. Zach. You are, um, super busy with your running, your training, your coaching and everything you put out there on ECS, of course. And in addition to, of course, you know, human performance outliers. So, um, I'm just thrilled to have the chat now. Awesome. Yeah. No, let's jump in. So, you know, we were we were chatting a little bit about about this before before I hit record two is just, you know, as long as like kind of low carb and ketogenic diets have now been sort of like in the news and have bled into a bunch of different categories, including endurance, it still seems like we struggle to sometimes to kind of come up with a definition that is. I don't want to say it accurately because like, that's probably the wrong way to say it, but there tends to be a lot of, uh, I think this is probably natural actually, to some degree, where people want this very specific plug in no matter what type of definition. But as I know, you've talked about a bunch of times in the past is like it's sort of this moving target to some degree, because we're talking about a physiological process at the end of the day, and lifestyle just play such a big role when you're looking at like something like what I do with ultramarathons versus what someone may be doing, like power, strength, sports or doing things like that. So how do you approach people when they come to you and they say, hey, I want to try out this kind of low carbohydrate or ketogenic diet or I'm interested in it. Can you tell me more? Do you have a go to, like a set of questions that you use to kind of dig into, like what that probably actually means to them versus what other people might think. Yeah. Um, a great question, sir. Can I think you really hit the nail on the head when you said, you know, this is about our physiology at the end of the day. And this is one of the first things that I love to chat to people about is that if we go, well, first of all, a ketogenic diet is quite different from a low carb diet. Um, but also even that, um, academic diet is. Is there to elicit a state of genesis? So it is more about that carbohydrate depletion that for one person might require a diet that is 20g of carbohydrate or less in a day. But for someone who might be putting in a ton of training miles and actually utilizing their glycogen stores and depleting them on a daily basis for that individual, it might even be, you know, one 50g of carbohydrate a day, so that there is no one prescription, I think is probably one of the first, um, one of the first things that we touch on. And then also the idea of, you know, how appropriate the ketogenic diet is for, um, for that individual. And now I am a huge fan of a ketogenic diet from a therapeutic perspective. And we know how, um, effective it is in a range of different areas. And also, of course, in the ultra endurance space too, like it can be a really useful tool, but we always sort of want to just check that it is the most appropriate approach, because a lot of those benefits that come from a ketogenic diet or being in a lower carbohydrate state, um, where you can increase endurance adaptations, balanced blood sugar and, and improved body composition can be done on a low carbohydrate approach or a carb appropriate approach, and not necessarily a ketogenic approach. So, so we, um, just sort of like set the scene in terms of what the outcomes are that the athlete would want to, um, sort of achieve. And then we talk about, okay, well, what's actually going to get them there. Yeah. That's excellent. I, I like what you said there at the end too, because like the outcome they want to achieve is one where a lot of times start with a client who's interested is like, because some people will come to me and they're like, all right, I, I, I want this lifestyle for some particular goal that's not performance related versus Yeah. someone else who comes to me, and they don't necessarily have any compelling health or, um, you know, dietary preference reason to do it. But they're like, hey, I'm, I'm just here for performance. And I think this may play a role here. Like, those are kind of two different, two different approaches as far as I can as I'm concerned too, because it's like, you know, for somebody who found a pattern of eating that they really enjoy for just general health and just what works for them, and they're like, yeah, I want to run well, but I don't necessarily need to eke out every last little percentage, then I may be a little less likely to start really kind of moving things around too much to because I don't want to derail their their main priorities in the process versus the person who's all about performance with it. And then it's like, okay, well, maybe we have a little bit more of a kind of an open slate as to what that maybe would mean. Yeah for sure. And I think it's worth acknowledging also that, you know, I, I mean, I am certainly more of a low carbohydrate sort of practitioner, but of course, as we've just discussed, that can look very different. And essentially it, it almost is better to just say I'm lower than what would, what might the, the recommendations might be, you know, um, because it is if we think about the end of the day, the athlete, regardless of who they are, in order to perform at their best, they need to, um, prioritize their health. And if an athlete is trying to hit carbohydrate requirements of, let's say, 8 to 12g per kg body weight, which is what you might see in sports nutrition textbooks, there's just no room to get other nutrients, and that helps support their overall goals. And I, I guess I learnt quite early on in my practice that even though the sports nutrition guidelines would say that this is what we should be recommending, our endurance athletes, it was almost like a secret thing that no one talked about. Yeah, that's what they say. But no one ever can actually do that because almost everyone that you would suggest to do that would start getting body fat. And then, um, you know, you'd have to think about, uh, their, um, micronutrient status because there were just so many foods they couldn't eat because the carbohydrate requirements tended to be so high. And I think if you look at, um, research around carbohydrate intake of even elite athletes, I believe that the average, um, unless it's been updated might only be about, you know, or up to about five grams per kg of body weight, even in those very elite athletes. So, um, um, I guess from a carbohydrate perspective, that's just like one element of it. But you know what other nutrients are super important to help with, with their overall goals as well, which are just so difficult to achieve if you're pushing those numbers super high. Mhm. Yeah. And I find this one interesting because when, when you see people like arguing about this topic, it always ends up kind of playing out to be like oh well I'm going to share the most like negative aspects or the the weak link in that approach, and kind of try to put that up on this big pedestal as like, don't consider this because of this. And they're not really weighing that against what would be, you know, what else would happen when you do that. So like what you said to like if you're and I guess this would apply to strict ketogenic diets as well where you know, you are removing a very big piece of what would typically be kind of more balanced around the macronutrient diet. And whenever you do that, you do run into some potential things to consider in terms of how are you going to get like those micronutrients and make sure that you're still on top of all of that so that the trade off isn't net negative? And yeah, I think that's a really interesting way to maybe kind of like unpack some of that stuff at times is like looking at it through that lens of, okay, well be willing to accept the trade off if it's going to be a net positive, because everything is probably going to have some trade off somewhere. And Mhm. The more of those you're aware of, the better you're probably going to be able to piece together what's actually going to work for you versus, you know, whatever the better person at debating is going to convince you of. Yeah, no for sure. And, you know, if we think about, like, evidence based practice, I always frame it up that we've got these like three, um, elements to it, if you like. And I believe I, I probably heard this first maybe 15 years ago from Chris Christie. Do you know, do you know who I'm talking about with Chris Yeah. Christie? Yeah. And Mhm. he's just such a reasonable individual, I think, um, and he's like, look, this is an evolutionary base for um, for some of the, you know, best recommendations. You know, how have we evolved to, um, to optimize our health across, you know, thousands of years? And whilst it's not about everyone going back to live in a cave, it's, you know, taking some of this information and knowledge and how we can apply it in our everyday life when it comes to nutrition. And then, of course, you've got those, um, randomized controlled trials that like the science of nutrition, which allows us to understand more about what's going on in the mechanisms that are involved but don't necessarily reflect what can be translated in real life, you know, and I think that's a really important, um, piece of what we look at with regards to sort of best practice and, and things like that and nutrition. And then of course, you've got that individual in front of you and you're in my clinical experience, but also what the person I'm talking to, like, what did they bring to the table in terms of their own experience? Because at the end of the day, um, everyone is quite different as to how they're going to respond to an approach and that won't always be informed by our evolutionary basis or by, um, what science tells us. And so you always come at things with an open mind thinking, you know, is this going to work? Or, you know, what tweaks do we need to make? Because that's a very real, um, experience that person is having, which is sort of why I, I, I don't just dismiss anecdotes, I suppose, because there is, you know, we are all anecdotes, aren't we? Um, and And. I just think it can add real value and, and tell us a lot or tell that individual a lot about, uh, you know, what they're experiencing. Yeah. No, that makes sense, I think. And that's another thing that I think sometimes gets confused too, because like if you're working with an individual, they're anecdotes are important because Mhm. It's literally like what happened when you did this input versus like applying that to a group of people that you don't know anything about yet. And that's where I sometimes think, like a lot of the conversations can get a little messy, is because it's like someone wants to apply their anecdote to a group or a group. That is, the recommendations are working for. Want to apply that to someone who's already tried that, and they learn from their own personal anecdotes that that didn't work for them for one reason or the other, and they needed to pivot to something different. And then you sort of kind of get a little bit of like, kind of like a different conversation going back and forth with those sorts of things. But yeah, it's um, and at the end of the day, too, it's like, you know, anecdotes are usually what start a conversation and get people interested Mhm. in doing some of the more formal scientific work anyway. So if you just ignore them altogether, then you kind of miss out on some of those prompts that would maybe generate curiosity in the first place. Yeah. For sure. And then and when we are looking at scientific trials, what has always presented or most often presented in the results is like an average value of everyone's experience and everyone's response. And so there will always be a range within that. So for example if you're looking at performance outcomes on a lower carbohydrate diet and there's um, and whatever the value is that they're looking at, you know, this is the average value that people experienced. Well, there will always be that's like the average value. Yet the participants all have their own individual response. It all sort of accumulates to um, uh, to form part of that value. So, um, I think understanding that also helps people, uh, recognize that there are just many different outcomes that someone can experience, regardless of what science sort of tells us, I suppose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where do you fall within that average that got Mhm. That average could get there from a couple extremes averaged together versus everyone standing in the same spot. Yeah. And that actually made me think of uh, did you I'm sure you've, uh, probably spoken about and dug into the study that came out earlier this year where they were looking at ketogenic endurance athletes. That and they were comparing them to, uh, essentially the same group with a washout period on a high carb diet. And they controlled energy intake to the degree where the groups, neither the groups gained weight. So we sort of could rule out some of the weight gain side of potential problematic outcomes that can kind of muddy the waters a little bit. And they found that like three out of the ten, uh, individuals in this study actually had like pre-diabetic levels when Mhm. They were weight maintenance on a moderate to high carbohydrate diet. And I was thinking to myself, I was like, well, that's that's really interesting because, like, you know, most people would probably assume at like a calorie control diet or a weight maintenance diet, moderate to high carbohydrate, that person shouldn't have pre-diabetic levels of fasting blood glucose. But here we were, three of the ten there. So there was either some sort of thing going on with those participants where within the context of endurance, plus the carbohydrate required to maintain weight at, I think it was like 65% of their intake or somewhere around there, you Mhm. Now, they found themselves with a problem and, you know, all that went away when they switched to the I think their ketogenic diet was around 50g of carbohydrates per day with that group. But, um, there were a lot of other things being looked at in that particular study, too. But I thought that was maybe one of the more interesting pieces that came out of it. Uh, in terms of like, what would maybe make someone a little more curious than just looking at like, oh, endurance athletes eat carbs, and that's just the way it is. 100%, Zack. And I think that study, and I believe it was a Prince study actually, that that you're referring to and I, I think it really highlighted a few things in my mind. One is, well, the individuals you're thinking about, I think there were middle class, middle aged. So and Mhm. If I think about the vast people that I work with and potentially you work with as well, we're all sort of in this age group and probably have an ability level that isn't necessarily elite. So what we see elite athletes, quote unquote get away with, may not be so favorable in the sort of middle aged, uh, competitive yet still recreational athlete, which I think a lot of us would sort of fall into that category. Um, and we didn't know what these individuals' blood sugars were like prior to the study either, so they may well have their diet. I can't recall actually what their usual baseline diet is like, but there were no measures of blood glucose in their everyday life. So this might have just been, um, reflective of what the individuals were experiencing before coming into the study also. And then, you know, I mean, we often look at body size as a reflection of health and whilst it certainly is, um, is one indicator in certain populations of how healthy an individual is as an athlete, we can't use that as our determining factor because of all of these, uh, because you can still have, um, metabolic challenges and as a lean individual. And so, um, sort of understanding that and being aware of that, I think is, is valuable because so many times we just think, ah, you know, if we're like leaner or smaller, then we can sort of get away with eating the, the, the junk food that our training affords us, you know, in terms of overall caloric balance and maintaining a body weight that would be considered healthy. But if you don't know what's going on under the hood, then I think that, um, is certainly something that people need to be mindful of, which and I don't know actually how you feel about this, but I am actually quite a fan of, um, slapping a glucose monitor on someone and just seeing how they respond in their everyday life to just not just the food that they eat, but, you know, the sleep that they get and the stress of the training and, and stuff like that. Because, you know, if we can uncover some of these, uh, metabolic challenges before they end up sort of becoming full blown, um, conditions, then you're actually doing a lot in that preventative health space and you're keeping someone healthy, which is ultimately what you would want. Mhm. Oh, sorry about that. I had, uh, um, my thing cut out for just a second there, but I think I caught what you said, so, Oh um, no. but, yeah, I mean, with continuous glucose monitors. Um, I think they're great tools. I think they're definitely something that require a bit of upfront education for a Mhm. person to kind of make the right. It's going to give you some information. Right. And it's going to not give you other information. So Yeah. if you start kind of thinking about it through the lens of just that one piece, then you could run into problems. Or if you look at it too acutely, uh, where it's like you're freaking out about one glucose spike that kind of comes back down, and then that's driving all your decision making that could potentially make it, uh, you know, you're trying to solve a problem that's not really there, but a lot Yeah. of that stuff can just be like, I think, I mean, it's like any tool, right? It can be misused. And then you end up getting something that you didn't weren't looking for out of it. But yeah, when done right, I think like, you know, like, let's take that example of those, those, those ten athletes were three of them had pre pre-diabetic levels of blood glucose. You know, something like that could help them tease some of that information out to find out Mhm. like okay well was this just a one time thing that was higher for one reason or other, like the stress of participating in a study or something like that? Yeah. You know, they're going to know that by wearing a continuous glucose monitor, or let's say that they do find out that they are sitting high fasting blood glucose, and they want to try to remedy it if they have the continuous glucose monitor on for a few weeks. And they're kind of continuing that pattern that resulted in that, they can see what is actually moving the needle the most with that and then start maybe like taking care of the bigger movers first versus trying to like overhaul things than guess at what's going to work and what's not going to work. Yeah, completely. And there are like, so many if we just, um, uh, staying on that point, like, there are so many things that people can do. Um, both like just even small changes to their activity and diet that can make a really measurable difference in their overall, um, blood sugar management. Right. And it might be, you know, if you're an endurance athlete and you do all of your training in the morning but are largely sedentary, then even making small shifts in your non exercise activity can make big differences to your blood sugar. Um, raw apple cider vinegar before a meal can help lower that postprandial blood sugar response. Um, yeah. So you're right. Like, there are plenty of things which you can try when you've got it in front of you to, um, make sure of that or to sort of get things back into line. But that's such a good point that you raise that the, the education piece around how useful it is, but also how it fits in the context of, um, everything else, because you can't just chase the lowest blood glucose level because other things will fall out of whack if that's, you know, your only sort of outcome that you're interested in. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting stuff. I'll be probably even more curious when we have monitors that literally give you a full blood panel, regular Oh, basis, yeah. Because then you do see the full picture and have that readout. And I think, um, I haven't seen anyone really that I know and talk to them specifically, but I know they have continuous, uh, um, ketone monitors now that Yes. I'm sure it will eventually become more mainstream or something. People can, can just get. But, uh, but yeah, I mean, that's like a step towards that direction. You kind of see like, you know, see some of these other things that are going on along the way to and then start kind of piercing that stuff together more holistically. Yeah. I did like how you mentioned sort of the big pillars and then, you know, if you step back, um, and just and I, and I think this is where nutrition is, it's very easy to sort of go down a rabbit hole in one particular area. And I suppose, you know, this is where the whole concept of like quote unquote, sort of like biohacking sort of comes in with regards to nutrition and lifestyle and training and longevity and, and the rest of it. And it's very easy to ignore, um, the real basics, which actually, for most people, if they just did the basics better, then they probably would, um, the overall outcomes would be more in line with what they're trying to achieve. Um, and, you know, we talk about low carb and we talk about, um, low fat or high fat and, and protein for a large number of years, didn't even really feature in the conversation. Um, and I feel like it's sort of getting much more limelight now than what it used to. And, um, that's where I think most people and, and endurance athletes especially could probably um. Not do better, but focus more on it and then it becomes less important. To my mind the carbohydrate or all the fat if you sort of dial in your protein requirements. Mhm. Yeah. And a lot of times I think too it's like this and this can work both ways. But like protein sort of like I mean you can definitely go and find pure protein sources especially if you're taking protein powders and things like that. But a lot of times if you're just grabbing foods that are high in protein, there's going to be some fat that comes along for the ride. Or if you're seeking fat, you're not likely going to unless you're taking oils and butters and like full creams and things like that, you're going to get some protein along for the ride, too. So I do wonder sometimes, especially with the low carbohydrate diets, it's like those two macronutrients pair quite, quite frequently. They do um, for um, in my clinical experience, for men more than women or for males more than females, Mm. um, and I and I wonder whether part of it is some of what we were discussing before we hit record is that, um, females might struggle more to get their protein, and only because they're so used to taking things out of their diet. And this is I mean, this is a gross generalization, but, you know, you tell a woman to take carbs out of their diet. And, I mean, they've been doing that since the 90s. That's no big deal to them. But getting the fat into their diet and lifting their calories up to an appropriate amount for training is somewhat harder. But also, in my experience, focusing more on protein tends to give them better outcomes with regards to recovery with regards to appetite regulation, um, hormone balance and, and things like that, rather than just solely focusing on being higher fat. Uh, and, and this is not every person because obviously everyone's an individual. But um, that I think that protein piece for women maybe, maybe um, a more important to target because as you say, like a lot of the higher fat foods may also deliver protein for, um, for our male athletes, and they might not find it difficult to hit protein as long as they're hitting the energy and the calories they need. Whereas women often have sort of like slightly lower in calories and maybe lower than what they should be, and then really struggling to get their protein and, and, and just a little bit confused about how the whole thing works. Mhm. Yeah I mean you raised a good point. It kind of leads us into like a topic I really wanted to dive into with you is just like women on low carb ketogenic diets. Uh, and just, you know, there's, there's a lot of I would say, like, I would, I would say, like, if we would just like, ask the average person who's even like semi informed with nutrition about like low carb ketogenic diets, do they work better or worse for men or women? I think people would intuitively think they work better for men for some Mhm. reason. And I'm curious about that. Is that something like that? We just need to study more. Is there something actually unique about females that would make them less likely to do well on a ketogenic diet? Or is it kind of like you said, there are some kind of maybe culturally motivating factors that are creating an environment where. Uh, someone who I guess I the way to maybe think about would be like if, uh, the, the average female who chooses to try a ketogenic diet or a low carbohydrate diet is more likely to under consume from past experience and things like that, versus you put a male on a ketogenic low carb diet. Their first thought might not be restriction. It might be like, okay, we're just changing the inputs and they may actually end up eating more, potentially. Mhm. I think that's exactly it Zach. So you know I've had a number of discussions over the years, um, with my good friend, doctor Cliff Harvey, and he's, you know, studied ketogenic diets, I think, for his PhD, actually, this was like the topic of, of his PhD research. And he's, you know, he's dived into the literature and I have as well. And what often happens is that when you are that , the, uh, the potential deficits that a woman might experience on a ketogenic diet or a low carbohydrate diet are hard to disentangle from that form of low calorie, actually. And even if you look at research and research might state that low carbohydrate diets are, um, negative for a woman's, um, uh, energy availability or for her. Um, yeah. Well, in energy availability it is, you know, the, the, the prime example, if you follow the lead in terms of that literature, often they are referencing papers that are in fact looking at low calorie and not low carbohydrate. And I think that is certainly, um, something to be mindful of when you're looking at. Uh, some of the critique around a low carb approach or academic approach for women. Um, there is a good reason. Well, there is research looking at sort of acute markers of bone health. And this is in both men and women. And it appears that a low carbohydrate diet might increase that bone turnover or bone breakdown. Um, I mean, bone is always turning over, but if you're not able to protect bone and, um, and have that sort of bone remodeling process protected, then there may be implications from a bone health perspective. But a lot of the research to date has just been on acute markers and not really sort of long term effects. And we don't know whether an adaptation process needs to occur in order for these things to sort of be resolved or go back to normal. So I think some of that research just isn't there yet. Um, equally to your point, um, you know, culturally and as I mentioned, like, women just Can be in that restrictive mindset. And if you look at in, there probably isn't enough research looking at caloric diets, um, that provides sufficient calories and what impact a ketogenic diet has, um, versus a more standard approach or even just a low carb diet and what sort of health outcomes that these might have, like, and some of the mechanistic there is some mechanistic trials looking at changing hormone levels. Um, uh, there's a particular hormone called Caspian, which appears to be and that helps in the production of estrogen, um, that appears to be downregulated with a low carbohydrate diet. But again, we don't know. Well, there's animal data too, to say that. So it's a pre-clinical trial. We don't know what the long term impact is of this. Um, uh, in a human clinical trial. And then there are changes in thyroid markers and uh, T3 can be reduced on a low carbohydrate diet for both, um, men and women. Uh, and some people, just some people would say that, well, you know, maybe, uh, the, our system that just sort of doesn't require as much T3 or thyroid active thyroid hormone. So it becomes sensitized to the action of it on a ketogenic diet. So you don't need as much. Uh, but there's not a lot of research in that athlete space, um, at this point in time. So, um, I would say it's pretty up in the air, actually. And if you fix energy availability and ensure you've got enough energy, what is, you know, what is the overall impact of a low carb diet? I mean, I don't know that we necessarily have that answer. Mhm. Yeah. So do you think, like when people are talking about like or maybe advising against a low carb ketogenic diet for, for an athlete or for, for women in general? Are they looking at it through kind of like a precautionary principle then where it's like, well, we just don't have the information to really guarantee that this isn't going to be a net negative in that department. So we should stay cautious and maybe avoid it until we do. I think maybe. But also I think that a lot. You do see out there that a low carbohydrate diet is negative for females, but it's based on, on that low calorie diet literature. So I think there's just a miscommunication there. Um, Mhm. and yeah, so I think those are probably the major reasons why people are against it. Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing like we kind of have two things kind of going on with the conversation between like the bone density stuff and then like female and female hormone stuff. But the bone density stuff is another one that I find interesting because when someone switches to a low carbohydrate or a ketogenic diet, when I just think about the foods that they're going to remove in order to achieve that, Um. The first things that go are usually the stuff that are fortified. So it's like the cereals Yeah. and things like that. So it's like my question always is, like even with a calorie matched, what are the micronutrient shifts going on here? And how closely attention were they paying to that to make sure they weren't having some sort of deficit in, in, in a micronutrient that could potentially lead to bone health issues and things like that too. So, um, there are a lot of moving parts when you change a dietary macronutrient to that degree. And I think that's maybe just something where within the low carb ketogenic diet community, we need to talk about, hey, while you're shifting your macronutrients around, might not hurt to actually take a look and see what macros you're also shifting. And if it is something where you went into like a pretty low amount relative to what the days would suggest, just search and see what low carb, friendly foods you could maybe add into your protocol to kind of account for that. Or or be mindful of that when you're getting blood panels done and things like that to see if it's changing at all. If you have a reason to be concerned. I completely agree. And it is interesting, isn't it? Because in fact, like the if you think about a low carb approach and you're increasing potentially you're increasing protein and you're increasing, um, uh, or you're increasing protein first with and and to some extent a little bit of dietary creatine, which, which can be helpful for bone. Um, ultimately, if I think about bone like the things which are important are obviously calcium and then you've got protein, then you've got, um, things like boron and silica and vitamin D and magnesium and phosphorus and, and then of course, strength training is probably one of the most Yeah. important things for, for bone and which, you know, as endurance athletes, if we're doing a lot of, um, hill based work and, and load bearing work, plus doing strength training on top of that, there's a lot of real protective things, um, happening with regards to, um, to bone health. Um, and then if you remove a lot of the junk carbohydrate, you're likely reducing inflammation that can be one of the worst things for bone as well. So there's I think there's a lot of. Um, I think I absolutely agree with you with regards to, um, ensuring you've got your micronutrients set. And equally, in a low carb approach, there's real, um, opportunity to enhance bone health. I don't know. Mhm. Yeah. I wonder too sometimes when it comes to the implementation of things to where I think we see a lot more, I would venture to guess a guest, like fasting and time restricted Um. feeding type approaches within the low carb ketogenic community. And I wonder sometimes how that sort of how that plays into just like bone turnover and some of these issues that were maybe seeing as well or like are is there is there any reason to believe that even with calorie matched with these larger windows of non eating that could negatively impact, like the bone remodeling process process or even the protein muscle synthesis to some degree? Yeah, I, I completely agree with you. You know, people, when we stop and look at the benefits of exercise and the benefits of fasting, they're very similar in terms of the hormone changes that occur and the upregulation of enzymes that help with, you know, fat adaptation, but also anti-inflammatory pathways and antioxidant pathways like the you almost couldn't Differentiate between fasting and exercise, and sometimes the the individual that is interested in their health and longevity and their training, they almost want it. They start layering these things on top of each other to the detriment, and then it just makes it incredibly difficult to actually get the nutrition they need. If they're only eating within a six hour window and they're doing a, um, you know, an early morning extended training session and, and, um, they're all doing it with health in mind. But a large part of it, I feel like, is because a lot of the information is really valuable and, um, really helpful for someone who, who may have metabolic issues and who might not train, who might be largely sedentary. Um, and so that's where fasting, you know, is a really great tool for someone like that. But it's just a little bit too much stress on the system of the endurance athlete, which, I mean, stress is super important, but we also need that sort of recovery to help build our resilience, whereas you're not going to get that if you're fasting and training and and doing all of the things. Yeah. And that's how I'll usually kind of lead in with fasting. When someone asks me about that and they're doing endurance. Endurance sport is just like when you think about it. Just like if we remove the time as the measure and implement an energy expenditure instead, it's like if I were to do, say, a 24 hour fast and be sedentary. It's like maybe I metabolize around 2000 calories, give or take. But if I do that same thing but have a 20 mile run in the middle of it all, it's like I've almost like I definitely to x to that energy output. So then as far as my metabolism is concerned, it's closer to 48 hours worth of sedentary non eating. So when you kind of have these two different ways to measure that. And I always find it interesting where it's like you said, like there's probably just going to be a lot more stress involved when you're doing it with that highly active lifestyle. And you should be paying attention to also, like, you know, how much energy have I likely gone through since I was eight? As Mhm. much as you're thinking about some number on the clock. Yeah I agree with you and I'm not sure how you feel about this, but there's just been such an explosion in that social media space of experts and experts who are, um. Who end up speaking to the same people even though the message is directed to completely different populations. But I feel like that gets a little bit lost. And I see this a lot, particularly in the women's health space. You have people with very large platforms saying something which is really appropriate for one type of individual. But they're because their reach is so large, it's just like, you know, everyone is hearing it. And so there's a lot of confusion because this person is super well qualified as much as this other person is who is who, their target audience is very different. But again, they're all speaking Yeah. to that same same um, uh, to everyone's talking to everyone basically. And people Mhm. find it hard to tease out what's actually relevant to them. Yeah I mean I see, I see the outcome of that all the time where someone will mention like I've been told to do literally everything now or Yeah, not do everything you know. yeah. So it is like that, you know if you, if you take like a key piece of advice from like let's say five, like a really big profile like health influencers, you may end up in a situation where if you followed all that advice, you would be eating nothing. Yeah, totally. So like or everything, depending on how you look at it. But yeah. So it's uh, it does get, I think, a little complicated online with that stuff. Um, the other thing I wanted to ask you about fasting, too, is. And I'll see this will come up, too, where they'll be like they'll be talking usually about endurance athletes. But I think it could probably be applied to the general population as well. Or fitness people at the very least, is just men versus women with fasting. Is there a Um. reason to believe that? Like let's say, for example, we did the due diligence and determined, okay, fasting is a safe input for us to play around with. Is there going to be a variance in kind of the recommendation with that from men to women, or is it kind of once you know, you're getting what you need, this can be applied and it's the gender is less critical. Yeah. Uh, that's such a good question. And often one of the arguments, um, sort of posited for, um, you know, fasting is, is quite unquote dangerous for women is to do with, like, cortisol levels in the morning. And, you know, women already have higher cortisol than men. And therefore, um, it is you know, they're just going to, um, pull that lever even more. And it's damaging to their metabolism and damaging to their hormones. This is one of the major sorts of arguments. And you know, Zack, if you look at the literature around cortisol levels, like, if anything, men tend to have higher cortisol levels than women. Um, women are more reactive than men in terms of to, to, um, changing situations impacting on their cortisol levels. But actually, I don't even know that I could even say that because I think one of the, the most, uh, my big takeaway from the cortisol literature, and I did a bit of a dive on this like a couple of months ago, is that it's really hard to measure cortisol and measure it accurately and have everything standardized. So you, you are able to, to have confidence that what you're seeing is actually what's sort of going on. So I'm not sure that that cortisol, um, argument really, um, uh, is a valid one for why women shouldn't train fasted sort of versus men. Um, and again, I wonder if this just comes down to, um, the, the sort of the energy availability. Now, I have looked at a few studies looking at, um, athletic populations like, uh, martial arts and, um, and female dancers, actually, and both obviously not endurance, but they, they train several hours a day and there were no negative outcomes when these populations did a 16 eight protocol, but they trained sort of within that, um, large, uh, within the feeding window. And so maybe that's um, that's an option for people if they want to do it, which actually is quite different from whether or not someone should train fasted or not. Um, ultimately I do think it's individual and it depends on the outcomes. Like if you've got a 45 minute easy run and you just get up, you do your easy run, you come in, you shower, you have breakfast. I don't think that's a dangerous practice. Uh, however, if you get up and you go out for 2.5 hours and you have some intervals within that run, you come in your shower, you have a black coffee, you go into a meeting or three, and then you're eating at 11. Like, I don't think that would be good for anyone to be honest, in terms of their recovery. So I feel like, um, uh, there are ways to do things which are, um, probably completely fine and then may not be, you know, so helpful overall. Like, I, I'm interested actually to know what your experience is like with your clients and, and fasting versus not and your female population. Yeah, yeah. You know, I probably get less of that interest once I start when I'm working, cause I'm working with, like, a lot of ultramarathon runners where it Huh. just is one of those things where unless there's, like, a compelling reason to do it, like, we're just not gonna even put it in place, at Yeah. least not in a kind of it's structure that you described, because this is kind of like a topic that I was gonna or I was just gonna like, comment on from what you said too, is like, there is a difference in the research from what I can tell in terms of how you actually structure like a 16 eight, where I believe it's that it's got better outcomes when you actually do early or Mhm. later time was restricted. So like actually having that eight hour window be kind of breakfast through lunch versus Yeah. being like, okay, lunch at 1 p.m. is the first thing I ate since, you know, last night's dinner, in which case you kind of have like what what what I would imagine to be kind of the more metabolically expensive phases of the day for a lot of people, or the higher Mhm. cortisol points of the day. And, you know, so a lot of times I think when I look at this, I'm looking at it as like, the biggest thing I'm going to look at first is like, when are you working out? So if someone is going to do some fasting or some time restricted eating, I'm usually thinking, well, are you doing your training, your major training session first thing in the morning? If that's the case, then we want to be very careful around that. And we need a Mhm. kind of a compelling reason to justify it versus someone who's like, well, you know what? I know I go about my day and then I do my workout kind of mid afternoon or early evening or something like that. You know, I'm a little less worried about it in that scenario because they wake up and they're having their lower metabolic phases of the day, kind of in those first that first half. And I think they're going to probably be able to navigate that a little with a little less stress than they will when, like you said, their workouts are kind of more around that feeding period that they're doing. So again, the context of that is, is a pretty big one. But I think like, I don't get a lot of, uh, a lot of my low carb clients there. I don't have a lot of them that are really that compelled to fast outside of Mhm. like what you said, where it's like, oh, I, you know, I have like a rest day or I have this short 45 minute easy recovery day and I'm not hungry. So I'm just going to kind of like wake up and go and do this run because I'm not being driven to eat and things like that. And some of them will end up kind of in that space, almost more intuitively, where they get to a point. It's probably rarely something where it'd be like 16 hours off. But getting to 12 happens pretty naturally. A lot of times I find with my low carb, ketogenic, um, clients where they're just not getting that same kind of pattern of, uh, hunger signals as they had when they were on moderate to high carbohydrate diet. So they sometimes just find themselves, I think, maybe getting busy on a less stressful day from a workout standpoint and finding that they're going 12 hours before they start getting that kind of drive to want to eat in the first place. Yeah. And I think it matters in terms of the overall goal of the individual too. So a lot of the clients I work with, um, they have their own set of training goals, but they also want to try and improve body composition as well. And so Mm. they are in across a week. They'll be in a calorie deficit, but it will vary day to day depending on their training for that individual. I'm always really careful to ensure that most training, if not all, is supported with nutrition because you know, when you are, a lot of the intuition is, well, you know, if I train fasted and then I'm reducing calories there and I'm burning more calories and I'm going to get more favorable outcomes and body composition, whereas if you're in a calorie deficit and you're running low on calories anyway, to sort of get up and do a training session. You might not have the energy you need to get those fitness gains you want, and also you don't feel very good. And then you sort of feel like, Mm. Well, that was a bit of a bum session. And it's not very motivating. Whereas, you know, I think protecting the training is really important for that calorie deficit. Um, client. And then as you mentioned, you know, just pulling some calories out later in the day, not a whole meal probably like I'm not I, I, I mean, personally I, I like three meals a day. I haven't always been that way, but I've certainly moved that way over the last 3 or 4 years. Um, and plus some, uh, nutrition for training or a snack. But, um, it's easier to sort of think about that if you train in the morning to have really good fuel around there, as you say, that metabolic output. And then, you know, think about what you're doing at dinner and can you make adjustments there to sort of shift calories down a little bit to help support that body composition change that they're looking for? Mhm. Yeah. And one thing I will add to kind of your question to is like when I do have like kind of fasted training sessions and things like that, I think one of it is like, and this is where people, I think sometimes just need to kind of like step back and kind of think, oh, this isn't necessarily an all or nothing proposition. This could be a Mhm. I do this sometimes, but not always, because Mhm. I think a lot of the stress from those sort of things is like, if you're seven days a week all year round, working within this, this tight window of feeding that could compound on itself, especially when you have, like the lifestyle of an endurance athlete, where one day to the next maybe looks drastically different. But if I have a coaching client and we're just interested in it, hey, I wonder what you're like. I like to call it like a fat oxidation field test, where it's like, we might have some cool lab numbers, but let's see how this actually plays out in the field. And I want to send them out for a long run, unfed with just water and electrolytes. And let's just see how your energy levels play out. Because Mhm. if I have a coaching client who's been doing a low carbohydrate diet for a while and they're able to easily tolerate that, that's a good sign because, I mean, then I know I'm like, okay, you're not struggling to do this low intensity, longer session when hydration is accounted for and electrolytes are accounted for and versus maybe what they experienced before, if they had been on a moderate high carb diet where like if they hadn't had like that pre-run breakfast and then a bunch of calories out there during it, they would have noticed a deterioration throughout. So there are some kinds of signals that I do like to see in the field that I think reflect whether the application of our approach is working or not, but that's something we can do sporadically. Just like I'm not going to give one of my clients a lactate threshold field test every week, I might give them one every six weeks or so just to see where their improvements from the time we did it before and that and then the inputs we gave you between then and now. But uh, yeah. Thinking of it less like this is like your reality going forward versus here's something we can kind of plug in occasionally and check some things and see some things and learn some stuff about how your body is working, but not necessarily get overly, uh, overly, uh, prescribed with it. Yeah. No, I really like that. And we often forget that nutrition can be cycled the way training is. You know, like Mhm. There are times in a training cycle for an athlete where we know it's going to be mostly low intensity as they're building their aerobic sort of base. And that's a great time to potentially drop those carbohydrate calories out and and try and get some sort of body composition improvements if that's what they're after or just really sort of grease the groove in terms of, um, um, increasing those endurance adaptations. But once you sort of get into high intensity type work or um, or just training load and metabolic output goes up, then, you know, that's when it is really important to actually shift things in terms of nutrition. And, and that is a mistake I see a lot of athletes make is they don't really think about adding in more calories for the higher energy output. And, and, um, and supporting that work. Um, someone um, I, um, one of my friends, Brandon de Cruz, talks about metabolic flux and having this sort of higher metabolic flux. So you put the bunch of calories in and you actually get a lot more bang for your buck in terms of that workout. And it's just much better on the metabolism then always doing exactly the same thing. Um, so yeah, we definitely have those conversations too. Yeah. Yeah. That is an interesting point because I think that actually kind of weaves into just like what I would call uh, the different kind of carb timing side of things because Um. uh, and we can maybe get into this topic a little bit more because we kind of started out with it where it's like someone who's on a strict ketogenic diet. They may have a little less wiggle room in terms of really moving much around, because they're just going to be keeping their carbs quite a bit lower. But someone who falls into that low carbohydrate category, you know, for those folks, I'm not I think a lot of people want to look at it through the lens of like, let's just plug in like X number of carbs per day and just rinse and repeat, because it's a kind of a simple thing to look at on paper. But in reality, like if I'm, if I am or one of my clients who are doing low carbohydrate nutrition are in a phase of training where we're working on speed work development and we're doing two, maybe, maybe even three in some cases, moderate to higher intensity sessions during the week. And then because those training sessions tend to be higher training load, they're usually put on, you know, separated with easy days or rest days where I find those scenarios to be like, rather than just hitting the same amount of carbs every day. Maybe we kind of bolster up some of those higher training load sessions with more carbohydrate than you would normally do, but then you have this easier kind of rest day afterwards where you can kind of bring them down below what you would normally average, and then over the course of multiple days you kind of hit that range, but it's just kind of a little more like waves and troughs than it is, uh, just straight line across the board. Yeah, completely. It makes me laugh sick because I still hear people describe you as a zero carb athlete. And I'm Yeah. like, Yeah. what? Like, you were nothing of the type. And you, you. I think you illustrate in your training and how you work with your clients really well. Is that carb appropriate carb timing sort of approach? You know, you feel it's right , what is it? Right, right. Fuel right time. Right. So it's Mhm. putting in the carbs when you need it. And then I'm sort of scaling back when you don't, which physiologically just makes a ton of stress. So a ton of sense and what I, what I do find with carbohydrate, the other um, thing which I think about is, you know, if I'm working with a low carb athlete, male or female, but oftentimes it is, um, female. Um, and if we're thinking about around that perimenopausal time of life where estrogen tends to be sort of fluctuating wildly and can be a lot higher than usual, progesterone is sort of on its way out, then carbohydrate can become an important tool for some people, and putting it in their evening meal, which might seem, um, which is. Not the typical time that they expect to sort of have it, but it can really relieve a bit of stress on the central nervous system and help with sleep. And I notice this particularly in a lot of athletes, if you're sort of grinding it out and training and then in life and you know, you've got children or a household to take care of and you might be looking after, um, elder parents and things like that, then like life stress can play into their ability to recover from the training stress. And the training is what they're doing for themselves to try and stay well balanced. But things are sort of out of balance. And even in that low carb model, um, a lot, you know, a lot of the time we're putting carbs in, you know, post training, but also in the evening meal just to help with sleep, which, um, is, is a really worthwhile tool, I think, in, in that particular athlete. Yeah, that's a really good point. And, you know, that's actually one of the more interesting topics with, uh, low carbohydrate diets. And I am kind of curious if you have a protocol that you use because I think one of the more interesting things for me when I first got into this was when I switched from a moderate to high carbohydrate diet to a lower carbohydrate diet. My sleep improved. And. Yes. I've worked with individuals where they've had the exact opposite experience. And I remember that Mhm. was one of the first things that I realized because I started this long enough ago. Like I had such little, like, knowledge of the health space where it was like to me at that point in my life, it was more like, oh, it worked for me. It'll probably work for you. And Yeah. Then you start to realize through, like seeing, like, you know, just paying attention to other people and their stories about things like, oh, maybe that's not the case. And that was one of the first ones that I learned that was like, oh, there's other people who they actually have that reverse scenario. And there I think it was, um, Doctor Ted Namen I was talking to and he he mentioned he's like, yeah, I've seen that a lot with my ketogenic clients, and he's working with more or less active people, but, um, still very much kind of leveraging at least those. That portion of his client base was leveraging a ketogenic diet. And he said, yeah, when they have, you know, trouble sleeping at night or falling asleep at night, we just move a little bit of their carbohydrate to the evening and that helps kind of satisfy their liver glycogen and then boom, they sleep just fine. And, you know, I've recommended that to people who've said that they've had that issue before throwing out the approach altogether. Maybe try this and see if it works. Mhm. Uh, and a lot of times it does. So yeah. Have you, have you seen anything like that too, with sleep issues and carb timing? Yeah, I definitely have. And, you know, because I work with a number of, um, fat loss clients, um, both in and out of the athlete space. I wonder, like in my experience, it's almost sort of 6040 in that, um, you know, 60% of people are probably, um, actually afraid, okay. Like, you know, you drop the carbohydrate out and they still tend to sleep, all right. And we can put other things in to help with sleep, like magnesium or inositol or glycine or, you know, some sort of supplemental support. Um, but some of them do not get any respite until we put carbohydrate back in. And, um, as, um, Doctor Ted Nyman sort of mentioned, like, it doesn't have to be a lot, but it just seems to be enough just to help. And I like that, you know, he mentioned, um, the restocking of glycogen in my, um, and I'm thinking about it from a different perspective, but just that offload of that stress but same, same sort of outcome. And, and I also, you know, the, the bit which um, I have to have a conversation with someone and because they're a little bit fearful that they might sort of reverse some of the, uh, potential benefits that they've been experiencing because suddenly they're putting more calories or more carbohydrate into their diet. But so it's having that conversation and reminding them that actually, outside of everything giving adequate and sufficient, um, restorative sleep will probably be, you Yeah. know, worth so much more. And so that's the thing that we focus on and everything else will balance out after that. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean even just down to your appetite if you're sleeping better if you're, if you're, if you have a weight loss goal, getting good sleep is going to certainly, certainly in that. And yeah sometimes it's just a conversation too, about like, well, let's just shift versus add or subtract and then and then it can kind of be helpful with that for one reason or the other. Mhm. Do um, do you have uh, like do you when you're looking at carb replacement? The other thing I'm always interested in is like the carb type, uh, because if we looked at that specific situation, if it were to be something where we want to have liver glycogen be kind of the preferred spot for the carbohydrates they take in, is there are they going to be better off with, like, a fructose, like some maybe some fruit with their dinner before bed or something like that in terms of, uh, helping with that because like my understanding is like if you use like a fructose, that's more likely to go towards the liver versus a different carbohydrate source. Yeah. And you're absolutely right. That's, that is how that um sort of pathway works albeit I've never thought about it like that to be honest. Zach I've thought more about it from, you know, what's going to fill these people up a little bit more. Um, what? Yeah. might provide a few more, um, nutrients and more fruit absolutely falls into actually both of those categories. Often I think about dinner and I'm like, well, if you have potato or sweet potato, then that is going to sort of, um, you get like you get a surprisingly small amount of carbohydrate for the volume of, of that particular, Mhm. um, food. So that's generally what I go to. But that's an interesting concept with regards to, um, like thinking more about the fruit aspect of it and the fructose, because, yes, that pathway absolutely exists. But I generally Yeah still I. have success. Yeah I can't say I have great data from like my own coaching clients where I would say like oh yeah I have like everyone who's done fruit versus you know something Yeah. else had better outcomes with it. But I just it was, it seemed intuitively something that would Mhm. maybe be or at least like a starting point if they're like if they say, because sometimes, sometimes the folks I'm working with, they're very open to me giving them suggestions as to what to eat, because they just kind of want to be told what to do and I am not totally. have to make that decision themselves. And then like, so I'm like, well, if we're going to if that's what we're trying to solve, let's just start here, because this would probably be the most likely way for it to go. And then if that doesn't work, we can always try something different. But, um, rather than giving them something different and then coming back and switching it if that doesn't work. It just seemed to make more sense. But, um, but yeah, you're right. I think a lot of people who are just looking to reduce their carbohydrate intake, you know, if you're swapping out things like rice, breads, cereals for things like potatoes and whole fruits, especially like melons, berries and some of these like higher volume type fruits, you're probably especially if they're just eating intuitively, they're probably going to reduce their carbohydrate intake just by the fact that they're not going to eat nearly as much of it as they would otherwise. Yeah, no I agree. And sometimes, you know, things get thrown under the bus where I feel it doesn't necessarily need to. Like, I feel like melons get a bad rap because people talk about how high in sugar it is. But if you Yeah. look at the amount that you actually have to eat to have, like an Mhm. appreciable sort of response, and of course every individual is different. But you can like it because it's so full of water, like you can tend to eat quite a bit without. And it's all about balance, right? Like we very seldom eat food in isolation. It's usually in the matrix of a meal that might also contain fat and fiber and proteins. So that in itself will change that blood sugar response to a particular food. But it's very easy to get quite, um, myopic or sort of insular when it comes to food and nutrition. Like we'd think about just one food or, um, in one aspect without actually thinking about how people actually eat, um, which generally isn't a whole meal. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Like the berries and melons especially like cantaloupe type melons. Those are Um. like. Yeah a lot of water, a lot of fiber. Not a lot of sugar actually when you think Mhm. about it now if you juice Mhm. a bunch of them, that's a different story. Yeah. But yeah. Totally. But Yeah. So I did want to ask you a couple more, maybe like, uh, female low carb questions too, Mhm. um, because you mentioned, like, uh, like maybe some carbohydrate support is useful during like, perimenopausal times and things like that or that stage is there, is there any sort of like carb cycling that is worth kind of using as this is maybe a good place to start for women just within their cycle in general, or like different phases of that where they'd be more or less, uh, it'd be more or less advantageous for them to have more or less carbohydrate during those times. Yeah. It's a great question Zack. And if you look at the state of weather researchers now there is no solid research to suggest that changing your nutrition is going to impact your cycle across a month. Uh this is what the research tells us. But clinically speaking, I think there are a range of different ways which we can think about diet and how it can help improve, um, or, you know, symptoms around your cycle and potential energy issues. So if I think first about a woman in her reproductive years, and then I'll move into perimenopause because I feel like there's this slight challenge or differences there is that, you know, if a woman experiences increased cravings or, um, a bloating or, um, pain and, and, um, you know, more tender breasts and, and a sore back and migraines and things like that. That. That's a real sign to me that something needs to change in their usual diet, either, um, in general across the board or particularly at that time, you know, maybe post ovulation and into that luteal phase where they are experiencing these symptoms and, and, and sort of low hanging fruit that I see here are things like, um, uh, dairy is a big one, and particularly A1 dairy, which is a type of protein. It's the case that the A1 casein protein in cows dairy, it can sort of, um, can stimulate the release of these inflammatory cytokines for some women, not all. But if you do have heavy periods, um, or you have a lot of noticeable symptoms, then removing dairy, uh, can and to see what impact that might have and whether that helps resolve some of these challenges. And then of course, if you if it does help improve symptoms, regardless of what it is, then you're more able to to train effectively and feel better and, and things like that. Um, sometimes bloating and as a real challenge, an issue around the luteal phase and, and following a, an approach that might be lower in, uh, the Fodmap carbohydrates, which are the sort of types of carbohydrate foods which, um, can create, um, more inflammation and more digestive challenges. And these are like seemingly unrelated foods that anyone could Google Fodmap and you'd come up with a list of low, medium and high. And for some women who experience issues around that, then removing those, uh, Fodmap containing foods across their luteal phase can make for a more comfortable, um, uh, experience. And then I find, you know, some of the recommendations for carbohydrate in that luteal phase, almost a counter to what I would think makes sense to me because, um, in luteal phase, um, some women, um, mechanistically, you're not able to access glycogen as readily. And so often the recommendation is to increase carbohydrate intake across that phase of the cycle and particularly during training, whereas I think maybe in fact, there'd be a better outcome if you worked instead generally to get more fat adapted. So you relied less on glycogen, because oftentimes the types of carbohydrate you might take during training might just ramp those sugar cravings up even more that women also experience. So, you know, I, I seem to approach that a little differently. Um, and. The other thing is that if you are wanting to improve body composition and you're following a calorie restricted approach, then during that luteal phase, if you have cravings, in fact, it makes sense clinically, um, clinically to actually just lift your calories backup to calorie maintenance across that time. So because those cravings might only be enhanced if you're restricting calories. So these are just some changes and things I think about for women who, um, menstruate every month and, and their sort of reproductive years. But then as we shift into perimenopause, you know, some of the changes that occur makes a woman more insulin resistant, actually. So, you know, if I'm working with an athlete who, um, historically has a higher carbohydrate approach, then, uh, for them, they might find that their blood sugars are harder to regulate and they fluctuate more, um, more regularly because of that shift in hormones and that change in that estrogen, um, levels across a month. So I think if you're more insulin resistant, then it makes sense to moderate carbohydrates and drop them down. Um, ensure that you sort of work on, uh, fat adaptation techniques during training. So the calories that you have before training are more likely to be fat and protein and not carbohydrate, and we put carbohydrate in post training, um, and lower that overall sort of carbohydrate load. Um, some of those other dietary shifts I mentioned with regards to symptoms around, um, uh, the menstrual period and the luteal phase, they can often help, um, a woman in their perimenopause phase two. Um, and then just a, a real like the thinking about alcohol intake and what that looks like and, and thinking about other sort of diet habits which might not be serving them, like the fasting that we discussed and like the, um, sort of just under fueling during a day. Um, these are all the conversations that I will have with a woman to help sort of optimize nutrition at that time. Mhm. Well that's excellent. Um, yeah. It's uh, it's always, it's always fun to kind of like dive into some of the like particular context type stuff too, because, you know, it's, it's so easy to want to get into that phase of all right. This worked for this particular day or week or month. And um, Therefore it must continue to work. But that's just not the way it happens to be. So you're always kind of solving some problems or adjusting and tweaking things. It seems to be able to find that spot that works well. Yeah for sure. And what I will say, Zach, is that's very rare. Do I come across a client whose protein is optimized to where I think it should be and so, so. And it makes all the conversations I have. Most often I'm encouraging a woman to increase their protein intake. And they're because, you know, if I come across an athlete and they're like, well, I have a protein smoothie at breakfast and I'm having a chicken salad at lunch, and then I'm having, you know, a steak dinner that still might only be half of the amount of protein that they actually need. But because they're having protein at each meal, they consider it a higher Mhm. protein diet and encouragement. Sometimes it's a challenge to encourage them to eat more, because the effect is that it will change how they feel and how much they might be eating later on in the day. And often we forget outside of our meal times, the times that we actually eat like we almost never remember, the time we pass the fridge and just grab something out of it. Or, Yeah. You know, we're like, just sort of standing in the kitchen after dinner or eating the food on our kids plates. So it's, you know, looking at that sort of big picture and getting them to think about that. And, most people are encouraged to eat more. Almost all of them benefit from it, um, with regards to their appetite, in their energy. But that's often a thing I have to have a conversation with, with women. And, you know, this is something which I also experienced a real shift in my appetite when I, you know, because I've been at all extremes of diet across, you know, the last 20 years. And particularly, you know, when you get into low carb and you get into fasting and then you realize it doesn't work for you and you sort of shift back to this moderate approach and then you, you change things up. Again. A lot of how I counsel people, as is based on my clients, um, experiences as much as my own experiences as well. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. So when you, when you increase the protein intake with your clients, you find that they just tend to do a little less kind of like minus snacking because they're just not motivated to maybe do it as much. Is that typically what happens with that? Yeah, 100% like they and I mean, there is good research to show as well that increasing morning protein decreases late night snacking. And it also changes their relationship with alcohol. Zach, who is Mhm. is super interesting. And you know, this is not the topic we're talking about today, but I know from the, um, GLP one agonist data, you see, you know, an increase in GLP one can change someone's, um, relationship with alcohol, like shifting and protein levels can do the same, like often women as well. Not often, but occasionally, some sometimes. Okay, sometimes someone comes to me with them and they're a little bit concerned that they feel they really need that glass of wine at the end of the day to unwind and, and, and things like that. Um, but actually when we correct what goes on at the start of the day, they're just far less motivated to sort of jump into the wine. It's less of a, of a, um, uh, a craving in a, in a desire. And so, um, increasing that protein can go a long way to fixing a lot of, uh, what, um, you know, some of these diet challenges that people experience. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah that is really interesting. I know like I've done it's been a while but we, I've done a lot of podcasts in the past where we talked kind of like protein in its role in the diet and the recommendations and things like that. And it seemed like, you know, a lot of the big the big names in, in, in protein research and on the academic side, not not just the online influencers are saying that, you know, like, we could probably afford to shift that up a bit in terms of what we would like to see people getting on a daily basis. So I would be curious, are you targeting a specific amount of protein that you're trying to get your clients to try to hit for each day in order to kind of get some of those effects that you mentioned? Yeah, I, I try to get them to depending on where they're starting from. My sort of goal for them is, you know, two grams per kg body weight, um, as a, as a, as a target. Some people fear really great things. And I'm not sure if you've seen, but professor, um, Jose Antonio has a couple of case studies where a couple of his endurance athletes have pushed them to like three grams per kg body weight, Mm. um, and seen really good benefits. But that sort of starting point of two grams per kg body weight. Um, and then for. Uh, my clients who are over the age of, say, 40 or 45, I'm really trying to hit breakfast as a, as a, as a big, um, as a time to sort of get 40 to 50g of protein. And, and there's no definitive age that you can see in the literature where this occurs. But what we know is that the older we get, just the more of a signal that the brain needs from the amino acids that protein provides to be able to initiate that muscle protein, synthetic response. And if Mm mm mm. if you don't have that, um, protein or hit that threshold, then you're not going to be able to initiate that full response, and therefore that you're not going to get that repair and rebuild of muscle to the same extent. So I generally say sort of, you know, if you're over the age of 40, then and in addition, you have some of these, um, other symptoms of, for example, perimenopause, which we know that we can get some really good benefits from having protein early. Then, I'm going to make sure that you're getting 40g and your breakfast at least, uh, and then in your evening meal, um, we're going to also try and hit that sort of 40 to 50g. And then the rest of the day it is there's less research, actually, Zach, on how much protein we need at lunch specifically, but we just try to pick up those other protein grams that are required to meet their overall, um, sort of total protein intake. And I think people often get a little bit confused, probably not the listeners of your show because they're, they're probably quite onto it. But sometimes people think 40g of protein is the same as 40g of meat. Um, and it's quite different, you know, and this is also a conversation I have like, so if you're heading two eggs in the morning for breakfast, that's 15g of protein. Um, and so you're going to need to be a bit more considered around, you know, around what you're having. And it can absolutely be done. Um, and easily once you get into the habit of, of having it. But, um, these are some of the differences that all the things which I get my clients are sort of work on. And I've been doing it myself for a couple of years, and I forget, actually, that it can be really challenging to hit your protein target if you're not used to eating it. So we talk through a range of different things they can do to help, um, sort of to help ease, ease the process, if you like. Equally, though, I do try to meet a client where they're at. So even if at the bare minimum, we're making sure they're getting 100g across a day, even if they're that's lower than their actual per kilogram, um, sort of target, then I think that's a really good start. Mhm. Yeah. And I like that I mean I'll, I'll usually for myself anyway I'll usually target about a gram per pound which is about two Mhm. per um kilogram. It's a little bit above that but pretty Yeah. close. And what I find useful with that is like if I'm targeting that, I'm, I'm probably at I mean, I, I guess I should maybe have, uh, Jose Antonio back on the podcast to talk to him about his case studies. But, Yeah. um, my, my assumption with that is, like, I'm probably kind of near the top end of what I would likely need with that, with that sort of an input. And then if I do fall a little short, it's probably not of consequence the way it would be if I were kind of hanging around the bottom end of what was required and Yes. then making a mistake in getting less than that. Yeah. No, I agree with you. And, when I spoke to Josie he was he, he raised such a good point in that, you know we're endurance athletes. We're just breaking down muscle tissue in our training. And we need that substrate Mhm. there to be able to repair and rebuild. And so for these particular athletes, they were quite light as well. So that that absolute amount of protein probably wasn't more than 150 or 1 60g in a day. Mhm. Um, which is quite different if you're working with an athlete who might be, say, 85 kilos, like that's a significantly higher amount of protein, and for them it's probably not as, um, as important. Um, and, and I agree with your point that if you are sort of trying to hit out a higher target, if you fall a little short. It's way less important than if you are sort of always on that sort of lower end of the threshold. And vegetarians are, um, are another, um, uh, a group just to, just to be mindful of as well. So for them, it is actually, to my mind, important that they try and set quite a high target and just hit it because the bioavailable, um, amino acids or the, the bioavailability of those amino acids are reduced, particularly for people who are exclusively plant based. Um, not so if you're eating things like eggs and yogurt and cheese, for example. But um, hitting that actual target I think is really important. And if you struggle there, then maybe adding an essential amino acid powder alongside a meal to help sort of boost that amino acid profile of that meal is a good strategy to just try to, um, sort of protect that, um, protein threshold amount. That's, that's some of the other conversations I'll have with my athletes. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah that is interesting. I know I like some of the vegetarians and vegans that I follow. They, I would say like over the last decade or so they have very at least maybe I'm just following ones that have picked up on this trend. But I see them being a lot more vocal within their kind of group saying like, get the high amount of protein and like go above and beyond what, what maybe your omnivorous or carnivorous friend is doing because it's it's going to be in your best interest with the bioavailability side of things versus I think it used to be something where I would see that group of people almost try to defend low protein diets, because Mhm. it was just more likely to be the outcome. If you just intuitively have a vegetarian vegan diet, that maybe you're sitting a little lower than normal. And I think they're they've learned to troubleshoot versus kind of try to lean into something that was likely a problematic thing for their community, which I think is great. Yeah. No, I completely agree. And, and I think that it's interesting actually listening to Dom D'Agostino talk, this is sort of a bit of a side tangent from the vegetarian um group. But potentially the, the population that might do with that might get away with a little less protein might actually be the ketogenic population, where, um, he's mentioned before the, the possibility of just enhanced signaling from those amino acids in that ketogenic space. And, and to be honest, I don't know more about it than that. So I'd be interested to, um, to know a little bit more about that. But it's just interesting, right? Like you can really change, I suppose, your requirements, um, based on these different sorts of inputs that sort of go in. Mhm. Yeah. You know you're, you're right about that. I don't know what ended up coming out of that. If there was any sort of conclusion there. But I do remember a conversation being had about like and this would be strict ketogenic diets where they're on like a 4 to 1 fat to protein ratio, which sort of has the similar effect of, like the plant based vegan vegetarian diets where like when you start looking at someone who's not super active and their intake is maybe a little bit lower, or they're just getting a very high satiety signal from like the ketogenic diet, you have a 4 to 1 ratio. You're so high in fat there, since there's nine kilo calls for fat and only four for Hmm. for protein, where you can be sitting down near the bottom end of that, uh, you know, protein recommendation or below without maybe knowing it or really thinking you are. And yeah. So it would be good to know for that group of people if there's a protective, um, a protective measure with a ketogenic diet towards how that protein is getting utilized. Um, but yeah, I can't say if there was ever anything that came out that said, like, yeah, that is likely the case or don't count on it. Get your protein in. Yeah, and maybe it just means that you need to have Don Beck on your show at some point so Exactly. I can, uh. Yeah. Yeah, I'm getting yeah. a great guest list from this interview. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. Well, Mickey, you know, it's been fun. Fun chatting. I think we definitely have to do another round down the road and just chat about all things low carb and low carb endurance and things like that. I'm sure there's plenty of other topics we could, uh, revisit or dive into that are different from what we talked about today. Yeah. Awesome. Zach, thank you so much. And I have to say, I always really, um, love listening to your podcasts, and you have some amazing people on with lots of different perspectives, and I feel like you bring a real balanced tone to, um, the low carb space because you're very agnostic, actually, with regards to how you feel about diet, you're just sort of interested in getting information out there, which, um, as a listener of your show, I'm always really appreciative of. So, um, and I'm, I'm honored to also be a guest on your show, so thank you. Well, I really appreciate that. But before I let you go, if you could let the listeners know where they can find you. Because I know you find yourself recording podcasts from time to time, and you're active on social media, and a lot of your content is great. So it would be awesome for them to be able to check in and see what you're up to. Yeah. Thank you. Zach. Um, so I, um, you'll find me on Instagram at Mickey Walden, which is just my name. Um, similarly on, um, X and on threads and Facebook at Mickey Willard and Nutrition. Um, I have a podcast myself called Wikipedia. And, um, to the likes of I have, um, Zach, you've been a guest on my show very early on, and I'm also interested in exploring the concepts that we discussed today and just a broader health longevity fitness space I, I find fascinating, uh, and my website is Mickey Walden. Com. So, um, thank you so much. Perfect. And I'll have all that in the show notes in the landing page as well, so people can go click over and check out what you're up to. But yeah, I appreciate your time. Nice. Thanks, Zach.