Episode 387: Sabrina Little with Nicole - Philosophy & Running

This episode is part of a series where Nicole will be interviewing a guest. The topic of this series is centered around individuals excelling in sport while maintaining a highly demanding career. 

Sabrina Little is a Philosophy PhD and assistant professor, mother, and has participated on five national teams ranging from 100km to 24 hours. Sabrina recently published a book titled, "The Examined Run."

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Episode Transcript:

Sabrina, I'm just so excited to have you here today to talk. I mean, you have so many accomplishments and wear so many hats, and that's really why I wanted to spend some time with you today. Not only are you an accomplished ultrarunner, you also are a philosophy professor as well as a mom. And now, certainly to add to the list, you have a new book out. So I want to talk about all of this, um, during the time today. Well, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to see you. It's been a while since I've gotten to see you face to face. 1s I know. I always, um, remember fondly of the time when we were both in Texas. I wish our paths would have crossed more frequently. Um, and I know we have our shared connection with Baylor. Um, and so we both spend a lot of time probably running around Cameron Park. Um, actually, I want to take us back. Um, so obviously you have been running ultras even longer than I have, so I, I want to talk a little bit about how you really got into the sport and how you developed your love of running. Yeah. Um, yeah. It's interesting. Like, everyone has a story that's that's interesting about how they got into the sport because it's such a weird thing to get into. Um, yeah. So I ran all my life, um, I mostly considered myself a soccer player and a basketball player, um, for many years. But the thing that I was consistently good at was the running, um, and I went to college, actually, at the College of William and Mary to run cross country and track there. But after my mom or so after my freshman year of college, my mom was in remission from cancer. So I decided I like grand gestures. So I decided I was going to run a fundraiser for the National Ovarian Cancer Coalition, and I put together a 100 mile run in my hometown to do that. And at the time, I just thought it was like just something that I had made up. Like, I didn't know that there were other people who did that. Um, I had bought sneakers, like at the local shoe store was, um, like the shoe store owner was Frank Giannini, who previously held the fastest transcontinental like, from running from California to New York, um, at some point. And so I knew that there was something called a very long distance running. I thought he was absolutely insane. But yeah. So I put this thing together in my hometown, and the day after it was in the newspaper and people were saying like, this is one of the fastest hundred mile times in the country this year. And I was like, other people do this. What? Um, so I went back to college and I was, you know, like at least a pretense of, okay, I'm going to return back to the team. But I just kept getting curious about longer races. And Virginia actually has a really active trail in the ultrarunning scene. So I started to hop into those events, and I just found a community there. It was kind of chasing your curiosity and finding something that I felt suited my body better. Um, I really liked just putting in long, long mileage instead of like the hard, fast track stuff. And so I kept doing it. Um, then it kind of snowballed from there. And yeah, I feel like Texas. I was coming into my own and you were coming into your own, and it was just. Yeah, a really fun time of life. 1s Yeah. No, absolutely. And I didn't even realize we had so many connections. I actually ran my first year of college at Wake Forest, so, um, I'm obviously older than you, but we have so many, um, probably shared experiences of our background. That's amazing. Um, yes. But ultimately, you are a five time US national champ. You had the 24 hour American record, which is incredible. So obviously, you know, you spent a lot of time during your early days running. Um, but I, you know, where did it fit for you in terms of trying to balance, um, with, with your time also in academia, like, how did you, how did you balance all of that at that point? Yeah, it's really interesting. Like during that time, uh, like you're studying all the time, you're writing all the time, and then you're trying to fit things in. Um, I mean, you can only write and read so many hours of the day. And so I found it to be like a really good complement to my studies at that time. And I mean, there's like so much more free time than you, than you even imagine. Like, I don't know, I mean, now that I have children, I'm like looking back at that life that I lived that I thought was so crowded with activities. And I'm seeing, like all of these holes and, and, you know, there's, there's more time than you think. But yeah, I mean, I honestly found it to be a really good complement to, like, you're working your mind all the time. You're thinking hard and then having that fresh air, having that kind of habit that encourages, encourages you to take, take seriously your embodiment and care about your body, to eat well, to sleep well, things like that. Um, I don't know if that was your experience, but I thought that they fit together really well. 1s Yeah, absolutely. I think there's just the ability to get away from your computer and just sitting and just having that active time in motion makes all the difference in the world. And I don't know about you, but I just always find that I can think better, and I'm just much more efficient in my daily life when I get those, um, those kicks of, um, endorphins right on a regular basis. I don't know if, if that was for you, but I feel like it just made me more productive. Yeah. For sure. Like a long run is like a full night of sleep for the brain. And then you. And then, like, with the running friends, too. Like, it's so nice having people who are not engaged in the same academic work and just to talk to different people doing different things is so great. 1s Yeah. No, I absolutely agree. And you just, um, it's really like that social time too, which is so important as a human right that outlet and release. So I want to stay on that concept and talk to you a little bit more later in the podcast about just how your life has evolved and where running fits into that space. But first off, I wanted to dive into your book. So can you tell us a little bit about how you, um, developed the idea that you wanted to also pursue being an author? Yeah. Um, it's called the Examine Run, and I wrote it because, well, so a lot of it formalizes some of the public writing that I've done, um, just through iRunFar and other kind of public outlets, just thinking about character and virtue and vice in just the athletic space, because I think oftentimes we have conversations about like. Um, sports psychology. Um, we're like, more curious for, like, what exactly sustains performance. And I think that character needs to be part of those conversations. Right. Because if you're not patient, then you're not able to stay in place. Right? So that's a virtue. Or if you're not able to persevere, right. If you're not able to stay in place and like to fix your attention on some good, that's far off. If you're not able to like, um, act from a place of humility, like there are going to be problems in terms of how you occupy just the running community. Um, and even just to clarify some of the like, I think there's some confusion in how we talk about striving, like, can you strive excellently? Yeah. In a way that's not at odds with the community. Like I just wanted to sort of sort of the logical geography of those spaces, but include character as part of those conversations. So that's why I wanted to write the book. I also just like, I don't know, people will talk about emotions all the time. I think that's a huge part about running and like controlling your emotions, right? There's this phrase, emotions can cook your food or set your kitchen on fire. Like, I've had so many runs that were disrupted by not having emotional control. And my research is in emotion. So just trying to connect those two spaces in a way that would hopefully be productive for runners to read. 1s Oh, I love that. I think that was when I read your book. And of course it is so well written. Sabrina. So, um, um, amazing work, but I, I love your thoughts about the emotion emotional component because I too have had so many runs to rails whether, um, I particularly loved your discussion about sloth and just, just I think the semantics, um, as how you described it matter so much. And I found that one of the big takeaways I gleaned from your book is how we misuse so many words. And it just seems like philosophy is just the study of precision and just getting the semantics correct. But can you go into a little bit more detail about sloth? Because I just could relate to that completely. Yeah, for sure. That's one of the vices that gets me to. Yeah. So right. Our cultural imagination of sloth is just that creature, that slow moving creature. But that's only one manifestation of it. So what is sloth? It's resisting meaningful work. Resisting kind of staying in place and doing. Yeah, doing the kind of meaningful work that contributes to meeting some end. And we often think of sloth in terms of, yeah, the lazy animal. But there are other ways to resist work. The other version is this kind of frenetic busyness where you're always you're always doing something, your attention is always going, and it's still a kind of resistance to staying in place. And so it's kind of like there are two ways of avoiding the same thing. And I think that probably a lot of us who are more like driven, um, productivity focused type people probably lean into that other direction. But it is like a kind of character defect that can impact how you occupy, occupy the sport. And it's interesting if you look at actually the, um, the medieval tradition, there were these guys called the Desert Fathers, and they were all about character. They were always trying to work on their character in cool ways. And, uh, one thing that they did was this practice called Stability Loki. And it was this sort of intentional staying in place. And they would do manual labor and just focus on being there now, like being in the work, paying attention to the work, and not letting their mind flit off to anything else. And it's a kind of self-mastery like practice in self-governance that, I mean, that's what I have to practice on long runs, like just being here now, just staying in place. Don't think about all the other tasks, because that's a way of resisting meaningful work, in the same way that the person who doesn't even rise to do anything is doing the same thing. 1s I absolutely love that, because I can't tell you how many runs have been derailed for me, especially the long ones, when I'm just going through my mind about all the other things I have on my plate. It's fascinating because even on a Saturday morning, I'm just thinking about those wheels. It's like the, um, it is like an anxious tendency as well, just kind of listing out all of the things you have to check off the list. So just being mindful and just calming those voices in your head, I loved that, um, I thought that was so profound and I, I was like, I need to think about this. Even during races, I find that sometimes that's a challenge for me. Um, that mental space, um, and it's fascinating. I love how in your book you go into detail about just the, um, how slowly you need to digest the material. Right? Because you can't just read your text in a way that you would just read a novel. It's just more, um, it's much more akin to, like, reading a legal brief, for example. It's just very, very detailed. And so I loved your advice to readers to just slow down while you're digesting the content. Yeah, I mean, that's something I have to I tell my students all the time, like, if you've never read a philosophical text, I think sometimes they expect it to be like a novel or like Harry Potter or something, and they think that there's something wrong with them when it goes more slowly. But I always tell them like, no, this takes me longer to and this is my job. Like there are different kinds of books, like you don't open a phone book looking for a good story or, you know, a recipe book or something like that. Yeah. So different kinds of texts you read in different ways, and it's really important, like, I think, to be aware of that because a lot of people say of philosophy like, oh, well, that's for someone else. Like that's for the academic. It's isolated from what I do. And it's like, no, these are human questions. These are people throughout human history who have been examining the messiness, the weirdness, like the oddity of being human. And it is so cool to know you're not alone. Like for thousands of years, people have been talking about this like, temptation to be busy instead of to do meaningful work. And people have been talking about how they're having trouble being patient or are struggling with envy. And like, I just love to feel like I'm part of a living conversation in that way. And I like my students and I want the readers of the book to know that these questions are for them too. 2s No, I love that. And it's, um. It's interesting. I obviously have Greek origin. Um, and so I actually have a cousin named Plato. So, um, whenever we go. Yes, yes, whenever I go visit family in Greece, it's just it's so laced with philosophy. And my aunts, I have aunts that have studied, you know, the content. It's just so it's such an element of their culture. So I, I love that you have, um, really dug into this for a profession. Um, but yes, I, I agree, especially when you go visit those ancient cultures. I can't even explain those sites and what you see and just, um, they they have been studying forever. I mean, with Socrates. Um, so I don't know. Have you been to Greece yet? That is. Just has to be like one of those destinations you'll have to check out. Yeah, it really is. I want to do the Spartan athlon. I have to get that done. Yeah, but then, yeah. Yes. Just to be there, um, to be in that culture. Yeah. I feel like most of the time I'm living in ancient Greece. We call our house the Lyceum, which is like what Aristotle called his house or his school. So. Yeah. 1s Yes. Oh my gosh, the Spartan alone in ancient Greece or visiting Greece definitely is a must for you. Um, I you know, I also wanted to talk a little bit about how I think it's so important. I, I love that you have given readers just kind of a breakdown of the virtues and vices and just the, the ability to potentially add it to their vocabulary. I just wonder as, um, looking back to a younger person, if I would have kind of understood some of these elements if it were to really shaped me in a lot of ways, um, not only as a runner, but just as a human being. And I, I'm curious about your thoughts there, especially in this world where we're seeing so many people come out. Um, really, Simone Biles, Gracie Golds and just their experiences. I think just having this, this toolbox of vocabulary really is meaningful. Yeah, I, I yeah, I wonder what it would be like, what it would have been like if had I had those words. Yeah. Mortimer Adler says concepts are like spectacles. They're a way of seeing yourself with greater honesty. They're a way of seeing your world more clearly. And I think it's kind of it's like with any other discipline, when you learn the vocabulary, you learn like a grammar of history, and you learn like concepts of like, if you've ever taken a sociology class and you realize, like all the breakdown of, you know, like, uh, race and ethnicity and like suddenly you're seeing, like, different things that you weren't able to see previously. And so having a moral vocabulary. For me. Is that like it does the work of helping me to name things that are at issue with me, but also like excellences that I see in other people and like it removes some of the false consciousness around like things that you think are bad. Like one thing that I've noticed is that we, we sort of conflate humility with this kind of mousing, this like, oh, well, you can't, you know, strive for things, you know, like if you have big goals like keep that to yourself, but like, that's pusillanimous that is being small sold. Right? So there's a kind of striving that, um, is excellent. Right? In virtues mean excellent and like having words to see like to, to give you a greater vision of, um, like what is good, what's bad. I think that's super valuable. And for a while I coached middle and high school runners and I just like I think the most important part of coaching is giving them words, like helping them process things, like they would have really good races. And what do you say to them? Or they would have bad races. And what do you say to them? And like having. Yeah, like being able to um like guide them productively, giving them the right words, giving them the right things to like, recite to themselves, like to think about. It's like such a big responsibility. And I found that having virtue and vice words available there and being able to praise things in a specific way was valuable as a coach. 1s No, I think, um, you were probably an amazing coach, but, um, while you have a lot of running knowledge to impart on students, I think just just teaching them those tools, it's probably just more valuable from a life perspective. I mean, I think that's what's so interesting about running. It's just for those of us that are lifelong runners, it's so shaped who we are in some ways that I almost wonder if we can describe ourselves as runners, um, just in terms of like the essence of being. Um, but I am curious because you talk about running, being your lab for the book, and I could so relate to that, because even just in my profession, I feel like so much of my daily thought and work is done while running because you just have this, like, uninterrupted time to think. So tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah. Um, right. So running is kind of like a laboratory to practice virtue and vice, but also kind of as part of your education. Right. Like. What are you doing? When you're running? You're encountering difficulties you're working through. You have the ability to practice certain habits of mind and things like that. And so just kind of taking that space seriously. And it doesn't have to be running like, I mean, if you are a tennis player or if you're a gardener or if you're a painter or something like that, I just think so. The way that the ancients talk about virtue is they're a kind of acquired excellence, and the way that they are acquired is through repeatedly doing them, which is really cool. Like, okay, so like the line is men become builders by building and lyre players by playing the lyre, so too we become just by doing just acts temperate, by doing temperate, acts brave by doing brave acts. So that's what Aristotle says about virtue. And it really just takes the guesswork out of it. Like how do you become more patient? How do you become more just you just repeatedly act justly until it defines you in a stable way. And so having this kind of applied practice where, um, like you're practicing, right, there aren't many social spaces in which you are setting out every day and trying to get better in a certain respect in the way that we have in running, like being able to use that space also to practice being more patient or persevering and being more prudent, like in how you manage your energy and how you take care of your body on a regular basis. Toward that end, like that is an invaluable place to just kind of refine and sharpen and be edified by your practice or the reverse, like you could practice being imprudent and courageous and like you could practice all the wrong things, but used well, you could practice. Yeah. Being sharpened. Well, I do think that's what's so interesting about running. And I don't know if you feel the same way, but I feel like running, like life is just such a spectrum of seasons that you just go through such, um, summer periods and winter periods, and so are your emotions and the way they define you. And I just, I feel like that is where it's just magnified and it's just, um, there's so much to take away. So I love that, you know, you used it as kind of your lab to, to practice. Um, but I don't know if you have more thoughts on that. Yeah. I mean, right, I mean, sometimes. Yeah. So your summer or winter sometimes it's going well and like. Yeah, like everything's coming together. It seems meritocratic. Like the work you put in is what you take out of it. And then there are other times when it's not going well and you're just like practicing the virtues that are harder, like resilience or equanimity, like, uh, just trying to maintain like poise and through like, yeah, adverse circumstances. So I mean, yeah, I mean, and you can use it for good or you can use it for ill if you just like, kind of flatten when things are hard and give up, well, then you're practicing being a certain kind of person who might give up in substantial commitments that matter and the rest of your life. 1s No, I couldn't agree more. So I think just using that as the space to practice is so important. I almost feel like you need to make a version of the book for young adults, even just as like, um, an opportunity as a takeaway because I just, I especially feel I feel like it's valuable to me now, but, um, I just think about my younger self and I'm like, I think I needed the wisdom of Sabrina with these virtues and pieces. 2s Um, so. Well, that is really interesting. Um, all about these details. I just am curious to where running fits in now for you, because I don't know if you feel like this, but I feel like again, over time, running has played a different role for me, um, into how big of a space that I give it in my life. Obviously, you have a lot of other competing priorities. How do you feel about running at this stage in your life? Yeah. Oh my goodness, how do I answer that question? Probably on a daily basis it's different. Um, and you caught me on a bad day for getting ready. Oh my gosh I understand. Yeah, it's so hard. I mean, I feel like, um, before kids, my life was I mean, I had other things going on, right? Academics and just always traveling for those kinds of things. Um, and so I don't think that I've ever had running for the first time in my life. Like, I think it's always been second to something. Um, and I kind of I'm grateful for that, both for the balance, but also kind of the longevity. Like if I had been free to run as much as I wanted to over the years, I would not still be running. I don't think I would have used it. I love that you say that. I used up my legs. 1s I feel exactly the same. I mean, I talk about this all the time with Zach. I just love having other passions and other things that don't fit within the space. Um, I just couldn't focus all day, every day on running. I think I would just hate it. Um, and so I love that you say that it's contributed to your longevity, because I think there's something to be said about that. Um, something that I also think is interesting is what is your perspective now in this sport of running, where people can essentially do it full time? Right. There are some folks that are talented enough that can just be professional athletes, essentially. Would you have ever gone that route or, um, do you feel like that would have taken up too much mental bandwidth for you? Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah. Because sometimes people ask me now, like, why didn't you go full time pro it wasn't really an option until like the last few years. Um, I think okay. So this is what I did in graduate school every semester or. Right. You'd go through the whole semester, and then I would have like 2 or 3 days before I would start working on projects again. And so for those like 2 or 3 days, I would be a full on professional athlete. And by the end of those three days, I was like, I am going bananas. I need to do something different. Yeah. Um, and I think, like, there are some people who are all in on running and do and, and can do that with high integrity and can do that like in a way that keeps them sane. And that is awesome. I think just people are different in that respect. Um, I just like to have my hands in a lot of pots. Um, so for me, I don't think it would have worked out well. But I do love seeing like people go all in and kind of take out, take out the other, the side projects and just see what, what great things they can do. 1s I completely agree with you. I love watching it. I love watching Courtney and just being a fangirl, but I would say the same thing for my perspective. I love having just my full time job and also training at the highest level that I'm able to do on that day. Um, but I, you know, it's fascinating to watch and it's cool to watch the evolution of the sport. But I agree with you. Um, I, I take the same position. I wouldn't be one of those people that would be able to handle it. Um, so, yeah, I was curious about your thoughts there because even, um, even my husband, who spends all day talking about running and coaching, I don't think I would have the I don't think I would have the bandwidth to love running the same way if if I did, I if I had such a singular focus, I, I feel like for me, the reason why I have longevity is just the ability to check out and focus on other things and then just give it that limited amount of time. Um, on a daily basis. Yeah. I'm in, I'm in the same place. And I mean, now it's like there are some days when I'm juggling my two toddlers and trying to do my academic work and get running in, and it seems like such a luxury. But yeah, I think like in terms of longevity, in terms of just like all said and done, the kinds of things that I want to populate my life. Like having a lot of things I think is the best way for me to be in the world. 1s So tell us what running looks for you. Looks like for you now. Um, as a mom, I'm just curious because that's something that I can't speak to. Obviously, I don't have children, but I watch you, and I'm just in awe. So what is a daily? A daily, um, a day for you and how do you fit running in? Yeah, it kind of depends on the day. So, um, I, I really admire parents who wake up early and then they get their run in and, like, before their kids ever wake up. Um, I just have kids who wake up at five, and so it's like it wouldn't work on my kids schedule. So I get up with my kids. Um, I kind of, um, I'm on the first run shift, so I go run. Then we make breakfast and everything for the kids. Um, I head off to school, my husband drops the kids off at daycare, and then he goes for his run. Then they come home. So they're 9 to 12. So we have a 9 to 12 block every day. Then I came home from teaching. I teach three classes in a row, and then he goes off and then I'm on like kid lunch duty and nap. And usually when they nap, I can get in a second run. Um, and then we just kind of like, work and play with the kids, um, until they go to bed. And then we continue to work. So it's like, I mean, it sounds like a lot of I call it prepositional running because it's just fitting it in when it can. Like it's not a big aspect of my life. It's like it's really just fitting things in between. I think Monday, Wednesday, Friday, I usually do like that double run type of situation. Um, and then Tuesday, Thursday I have a little bit of a longer block, weekends I have a little bit of a longer block, and I'm generally running about 80 miles a week. Um, if I'm building for something. Otherwise, right around 70 is my sweet spot. And then I can just like start to build if I want to move toward an event. Um, but, you know, I have an 18 month old and a three and a half year old, and it's like. 1s I know that there'll be times when they're a little bit more independent and can play by themselves, and that I can travel more and do more races, but right now it's kind of like if I can get a race in, I would love to do that. Um, but it's hard, like leaving is hard. Um, that means that someone is home with two toddlers. Um, so it has to be like regional races and like shorter type races. So 50 K or below kind of thing these days is what is working. 1s Yeah, but, you know, I love that you understand where running fits in and prioritizing. Because I think, again, going back to that concept of longevity, it's probably just going to play to your favor. Um, I think running is great, but I think there's just this element that there's something to be said about just realizing where it fits for you in, in the, on the spectrum. And so just not trying to give up those moments with your kids and prioritizing running. I love that you say that. I mean, obviously I don't have children, but just from a work perspective or even taking time to like coaching a team, there are just things that I don't want to give up because of running. And I think just realizing that and being okay with that again, I think it goes back to the concept of ultimately, you'll be a lifelong runner and love yourself and be more in love with running. Just making those choices. Yeah, I really like, um, so there's a way Wendell Berry is a novelist in, um, in Kentucky, and he writes about the kind of limits that we have in our lives. Um, and he writes about it actually in an environmental context. But I apply it athletically. He talks about how we have physical limits. Right? So there are certain, like, you can't push yourself so hard physically that you break. Right. And so having a sustainable relationship with your body means you don't, like, overstep those physical limits. But he also talks about cultural limits, like the cultural limits. Are the people in your lives right? They're kind of a limit , they are kind of like a constraining factor in your life. Like you don't want to overstep those people either. And we have moral limits. Like, so there are certain things that we won't do, like we won't do performance enhancing drugs. We won't have like others like lapses of integrity. And I'm more and more like thinking of my life in terms of, yeah, I have these constraints, but I'm going to look happily at these constraints. Like, I don't begrudge the fact that my children want to spend time with me or my students like to learn, right? Like those are happy constraints. They're happy limits in my life. And I think having a good life is knowing what your limits are, and knowing and knowing how to navigate them excellently and not overstep them. And I think, like athletes , they were inclined to really recognize the physical one very often. Right. Like we know we have it down to a science, the amount of mileage we can absorb, but then in some cases, we'll step over the people in our lives or step over, like whatever moral limits, like in, in really high performance spaces. And I just want to make sure that I'm navigating all of those and acting well within the limits that I have at any given moment. 2s Well, I love that you say that because I think those are so important. I mean, I think even just thinking about going back to our thoughts about how so many times during races, even those emotional limits come into play, just being able to be aware of all of that is so important. Um, but I, I want to go back to the rationale for the subtitle that you have because you talk about the good life and so why good people make better, uh, runners. I'm just curious how you came up with that because it's so catchy. Um, but it seems so relevant. Yeah. Um, I'll say this when you write for a publisher today, uh, there's a team of people who decide on what the subtitle is going to be. So I was one person among their publication team who decided on that. Yeah. Why? Good people make better runners, I think. Like it's supposed to be a little bit provocative. Right? Because then everybody says like, well, I know people who are really proud and envious, are terrible in other respects and are good at running. And so there has to be a story here. Um, so a couple of things like, so why is it the case? Well, first of all, there are certain virtues that make us better runners, right? So like I named patience, perseverance, right. Even kind of a proper humility. And knowing your limits like that is kind. It's a virtue. It's like something that is valuable in your communities and among your friends and just in a full life, but also benefits us as runners. But then oftentimes when there are vices that would support our performance or make us better, there are actually virtues you can substitute in their place. So you could live a very selfish, insular life and put yourself first in a thousand ways. But I think that one thing we're seeing in our life in the running space, you're seeing, like all of these teams coming together, people who will the good of their teammates like I'm thinking of. I mean, Bauman Track Club or Team Boss or just name whatever fans. Yeah. Yeah, right. Like all of these, these teams, they're like people who genuinely are invested in each other. And so again, you look like a character. They're like something that is really good. And in support of communities is also lending to, um, like peak performance. And at the end of the day, you know, like so say there are vices that support performing really well. I still am going to say it's not worth it, to have a good character. It's not worth having a life that's compromised and you ruin friendships, or you ruin your body for the sake of getting more out of yourself in a single race. 1s Well, I, I do appreciate that you say that. And one of the things that struck me when I was reading your book is just the concept of gray and how so much of the content, there's so much gray and just the meanings of words like, what is? What is a selfish person, right? There are elements that can be beneficial to running like you talk about, but inherently then it's almost like how far you take it or the degree. But I thought that was compelling and I, I just so much of my daily work from a legal perspective is, um, you know, presenting information to clients and then, you know, them wanting a black and white answer. And there's just so much in what we do that is gray. So I loved when you, you talk to some of those elements. Yeah. I think it's right. Yeah. Because it's not necessarily selfish. Right. Like you can live a very narrowly focused deep life, like being kind of all in on running and then not compromising your community. And I think we see some really good examples in the running world of, of people who do this. I mean, like Zach is an example. You are an example. Courtney dual chair, she's like a great example of someone who's all in and also looks at her power. Family talks about her, looks at how her friends feel supported like, um, so yeah, just because you have a narrow focus doesn't mean that you're a selfish person. And so, yeah, just talking about those taking those kinds of things seriously, like because I think you can start to think people just always say running is such a selfish sport. And it's like, well, I mean, in some cases, but it doesn't have to be. Yeah. Yeah. No, I do think about that myself. I mean, a lot of times, like selfish, I just there are elements that are inherently selfish, but it's like when you kind of use it for greater good and just build into the community. I think that's when, you know, you can kind of adjust the dynamics of that. But no, I, um, I, I thought that was a really compelling part of your discussion. Um, curious in terms of, um, any races that you have coming up, are you training for anything or. Yeah. So last month I was supposed to run a holiday like 50 K and I had my first bout of plantar fasciitis. Um, so I've never had that before. And I think it's like in pregnancy your feet kind of flatten a little bit and you have to restrain them. Um, so I'm dealing with that. Um, so I'm coming back, building, rebuilding right now, and then hopefully I'm going to hit, um, a 50 K. Um, this spring, just kind of on the racing scene in Virginia. Um, my ultimate goal is I want to run another 100 K. Um, I had just run a 100 K qualifier for the world team. Um, and then I found out the week later that I was pregnant again. So. So I have some, oh, some unfinished business. I'd like to get back on that team. Yes. Um, well, you have so many great things ahead there. Um, and again, I, uh, there's you have. So you have such a rich life. Um, you'll get to those running goals. I know, but plantar is the worst. I've had it once, and I, I think it was just a couple of years ago for the first time. Um, and it came out of nowhere, and it was brutal. So I'm sympathetic there. Yeah. Um, curious. Uh, do either of your daughters show any interest in running because you and your husband still, you know, are both runs, so I'm just curious if they've developed any interest. Yeah, it is really cute. They both, um, like, run and they they don't walk. They only run. Um, my daughter, my three year old will do, like, little leg swings with me. Uh, I'm doing active stretching. And then some evening she'll ask if you can go for a run together, and she'll go. We'll just go down the block and back. But she's just very excited about it as like a way for us to have special time together. Um, so yeah, I, I do, I do get excited about it, but I'm trying to, you know, turn their attention to give them a ball and, and have them try different things, like to be well-rounded. I'm sure that I'm sure they'll find it if that's what they're meant to do. 1s Yeah. No. That's great. I could just see both of your daughters being, um, great little runners someday. But I was just curious. Um, no, that. That's awesome. Um, now, before I let you go, I'm just curious, um, from a from a bigger perspective, from from a professional perspective, I suppose. What are your aspirations career wise? I know you're a professor now, but do you have any other focuses that you want to commit to or. I, I just, um, I definitely want to hear more. Yeah. I mean, so what? I'm a professor. Um, I love teaching. I think, like, lifelong, I want to be teaching in some capacity. Um, my husband and I have talked about wanting to start a classical school at some point, like just to build, build a school that will take character seriously, and a school where kids can love the great books. Um, we're excited about that. Like either starting a school or finding some way to build into a school like that. And then, I mean, honestly, like my career objective and in terms of philosophy, like I've had mentors who are so good at mentoring, like just building opportunities for young scholars, um, like creating ways to, to build them up and to take their work seriously and things like that. And my long term vision is to do the same thing. So find younger scholars like help pull them up, like help encourage them, read their work, um, provide opportunities and things like that. So that's my vision. I don't just want to be here. I really want to. I really want to encourage people in the way that I've been encouraged and shown. Yeah, show people that this is their place to and welcome people in. 2s No. That's great. Sabrina. And you, I'm sure, are just brilliant at that. But just hearing that you want to build into others and be more of a mentor, I think that speaks volumes to all of the contributions you make. Now, how does it work for you and your husband? Because you both are professors. So how challenging is it to be at the same university in terms of finding positions? That's got to be, um, challenging? Uh, yep. Yeah. It's like it is the worst. I mean, okay, so you, uh, a lot of academics are married to academics, um, because you get married, like, what, in your late 20s when you're all in graduate school. So it happens very often, honestly. Like, my husband makes my scholarship better in a thousand ways just because he's doing similar work. But, yeah, I mean, it's called the two body problem in academia. And generally one person's career is compromised in the hiring of another person. Um, so yeah, it's kind of like a lifelong, hopefully not lifelong. Hopefully we find something that is well suited for both of us, but at the moment it is like, yeah, like if ever there's a tension like our current career situation, it's always like, oh, one of us is in a position that's not so great. So, uh, I mean, yeah, it's pretty sad to be honest. 1s No, I mean, I hear about this all the time. I have friends who have had to match at the same time. Um, from a residency perspective, it's just one of those dilemmas. When you love somebody, you make it work. But, um, I do love that you both have the same passion, and I'm sure you make each other better for, um, for being in the same type of career path, but that's great. Well, Sabrina, it's just been a pleasure to speak with you, and I'm just so excited for all that you have ahead. So many great things. Um, and I say that from a running perspective, but even more so from a life perspective. So thanks for the time today. Yeah, thank you so much for talking to me, and it's great to see you again. I definitely miss running on the same trails with you. So. You two? Absolutely.