Episode 385: Rory Linkletter - 2:08 Marathon & 2024 Olympics

Rory Linkletter is a Canadian Marathon Athlete sponsored by Puma. He recently clocked a 2:08:01 marathon, which falls 9 seconds under the standard required to participate in the 2024 Paris Olympics. Per the Canadian selections process, it is unlikely his time of 2:08 will not grant him a spot on their team. In this episode, we discussed his path to 2:08, his training under the guidance of American distance great Ryan Hall, his and others decision to go straight to the marathon after college, training insight, fueling and hydration targets, why some athletes favor certain super shoes, and much more!

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Episode Transcript:

Alright, Rory, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Zach. I'm excited to chat. 1s Yeah, I can safely say you're the fastest marathoner to join my podcast, so it's going to be fun to talk to you. That's an honor. I mean, you must not interview too many marathoners then. Oh, 1s there's just not too many faster than you these days. 208 is a pretty impressive time. It was exciting to see you hit that standard. And, um, I know that the selection process is never easy for the Olympics, regardless of what country you're from, but it seems like it's pretty safe. As far as safe bets go. You're going to be at the Paris Olympics racing the marathon this year? Yeah, I mean, I'm planning on that. And I'm preparing as if that's the case. But the caveat is there are guys gunning for me. So in a world where they have great days, uh, there's a, there's always a chance. But I feel good about it. Like you said, it's like it's likely. So they have, uh, they. 1s The Olympic qualifying window is open till May 5th, so there's a few opportunities left that are good that I know of a few guys going for the standard and you know, it's nobody's done that yet. So it would be taking two new people running lifetime best by a good margin to jump over me. So um, yeah, I'm in a great spot and I'm excited about that. So right now I'm just working backwards from the Olympic Games and treating it as if I'm going, because that's what I think I need to do to give myself the best chance to be ready. 2s No doubt. Yeah. Yeah. And for Canada selection they are. They're doing it kind of on a body of work sort of thing. As long as you have the standard. Yeah. That's why they've left it pretty ambiguous on purpose I think. Um, it's the way I, I mean, I'm not the kind of guy to, like, crunch the selection criteria and, like, know exactly the ins and outs. But Ryan did go on a meeting that was sent out to all the marathon coaches, that of hopeful athletes at the beginning of the onset of the Olympic Games like window. And they said that they would consider multiple things and one being previous world champs performance, which I feel like I've done well at the last two World championships. So I think that puts me in a good spot. And then also, obviously you have to qualify that this is the hardest Olympic game marathon to qualify the most exclusive field they've had, capping it at 80. You know, obviously there's a chance there's more than 80 if a bunch of people are on the standard. But as of right now, I think only 67 men with the three per country have run that standard in the world. So it seems unlikely that 13 new ones, uh, will come in the next two months. So it is looking like it'll be the most exclusive Olympic marathon of all time. Usually Olympic marathons are closer to 100 in field size, so cutting it by 20% is substantial. 1s Mhm. Yeah, yeah. Interesting times I know it's been kind of fun to follow the American marathoners through the Olympic trials recently and, and I know you're I mean you're in it. So it's one of those things where I'm always curious uh for someone like yourself who, you know, you raced in college at BYU. You are. I'm friends with and, uh, familiar with a lot of the American runners. It must be kind of a weird situation to sit there and watch the Olympic trial marathon thinking like, man, these are guys I've raced. Um, given your more recent result and then watching that, knowing, uh, knowing the results of, uh, Connor Manson and Clayton Young thinking like, man, what would it be like if I were in there mixing up with those guys? Yeah, that's human nature to project yourself into a race you're watching. I feel like every year I watched the Boston Marathon or the New York Marathon or Chicago, London or whatever it is, Tokyo this last weekend, and I always want to put myself like, oh, what, what, where would I be in this world? And, you know, a lot of times the answer is like, not there. Like, right. Like if you're watching Tokyo, I'm not going out in 61 minutes or whatnot. But in that, uh, Olympic marathon trials, it was a really unique, uh, race, the way it played out. I loved watching it. I thought it was one of the more entertaining products I've had. I've watched as far as marathoning goes, with the way Zach Panning raced someone I've raced a few times before and have a great respect for. Obviously my college teammates Connor Manson, Clayton Young, uh, the way they raced and my experience just knowing who they are and how they train and a lot about them, it's it's hard not to be like, man, I wish I was in this race to just see, like measure yourself up against them. And uh, yeah, it's really cool. And it's one of those things that I'm just like, I finished watching that marathon and like, I needed, like a two day cooling off period. I was so lucky that my marathon wasn't like the same weekend, because I would have absolutely lost my race by just how much that worked me up. Just like being like, oh, I gotta make this team now. This was so motivating and kind of gave me a real fire under my ass, more so than I expected. 1s Yeah, yeah, it was fun. I actually rewatched that race last night. Uh, it's just one of those things where, U1 like, when you can watch, you know, just over two hours of racing. There's so many little things that you notice when you watch it a second time, and just listen to the commentary and stuff like that. It was interesting because I think like following it, you know, you could tell Zach obviously went out hard, um, went for it, and he sort of needed to, I guess, given the criteria for selection and things like that. But it's just one of those things where like, he's looking strong, looking strong, and I think it was maybe around mile 22, maybe closer to 23. You can kind of start to see the fatigue on his face start to show up and you're just like, that's good. It's like three miles. Probably. As you're watching him approach that spot, you're thinking, that's not much distance, but it sure is. When you're leading a race that long and then also going out on a pace that is, uh, is new for you. Yeah, it was just such a fun thing to, to pay attention to, but, um, yeah, when you're watching something like that, are you what are you paying attention to to try to see like, okay, who's got who's got a little bit of gas in their tank, who's going to fade? Do you have anything that you're paying attention to? I would say as someone who races all these guys on the US circuit and, and throughout the NCAA system and has known a lot of these guys for some time and have trained with some of them, some of them have been teammates and whatnot. I'm looking more like, what do I know about these athletes? And what does it tell me about what they're doing? Like with Clayton, the way his build was, uh, you know, through Chicago, coming off Chicago, following along on his training, I knew he was in a really good place. And the way he was just in it, like Clayton, I almost was like, okay, Clayton's making this team. And then Connor was the safest bet in the world because of the talent. Like, he's just he's just probably the best prospect to come out of the NCAA. That's went straight to the marathon in recent years. Right. So it's like you have these two guys and I'm like, okay, it feels like they're kind of a lock at like 18 miles in that race. I was like, these guys look great. They're right there. And I actually thought Zach was going to make that team because I had followed his training closely. And I was like, this guy is fit. He's really fit. And I respected what he did in Budapest. And obviously Orlando was warm. So there was a little bit of that. Like he's been there before with warmer races, but I think he did get and he admitted this in his post-race interview. He got too excited. He got too worked up in the marathon, you know, rewards patience and kind of holding back for as long as you can before you strike. And I think he was at 18, 19, 20 miles, when they clearly broke away and showed that those three were the fittest on the day. If he had just taken the edge off the pace, I think for the next five K to four miles. I think he will make it to the finish line in third. I think it was just like he was thinking like, I'm trying to win this race and trying to make sure I'm top two for the qualification stuff, but I think if he was third, he was probably going to go. So in hindsight, taking the edge off after you've kind of made the race would have been the smart move. But you live and you learn the marathon is a cruel teacher in that way. 1s No doubt about it. And it's it's that I always say the marathon has to be one of the hardest races because it's this perfect balance between it's far. You're going to be out there a long time, but it's short enough where the intensity when you get the best in the world, all optimizing for it, is very fast. So you're out there in a situation where you have to be on for a couple of hours in one mistake is potentially the difference between, you know, someone like Zach getting third versus, uh, you know, sixth place. And yeah, I mean, it's such a fun, fun event to follow. Um, I want to jump into your most recent marathon that is, uh, you know, I would imagine one of the more exciting races of your career for you, your splits. You, uh, you ran a 200 and 801, and you literally. What was it, 104 and then 100. 401? Or was it the other way around? I've heard it said to me both ways, I can't tell you. I think I remember looking at the clock because they had a clock halfway, and I thought I ran 103 59. So it was probably 104 for the first one. I remember looking at it and being like, oh, we're sub 64. That's great. We're on pace here. Um, so I think it was 64, 60, 401. But yeah, it was very even. 2s Mhm. Yeah. And I think that's interesting because it's like first of all 208 ten is the number you're looking for on that day. Because that's what gets you the Olympic qualifier. Uh or hit the Olympic standard I should say. It's something where you I'm sure we can get in kind of the training that you did. I'd be interested in kind of like what workouts you did that would maybe be suggestive of, like, okay, 200 eights in the cards for me today. But I have to imagine just the mentality that you have as you're getting closer and closer to the finish line of like, all right, this is happening. But I'm literally like a cramp. Something really minor could easily add 10s to a race of that duration, and all of a sudden you're in a very different situation. It can happen so fast. And to be honest, I didn't want to be that close. I wanted to go through half marathon in 63, 40 to 6350 with that buffer in mind of like, hey, if you have like a really rough last mile or a patch where you're dealing with the side stitch or, or a hamstring that that's locking up on you and you have to change your stride for a few steps to get it back or what, you know, all the things that can happen. I would have loved to have 20 or 30s to play with, because that gives you, uh, just a little bit more room for error. But I mean, it worked out well in the way that it played out. And as I'm going through that race, I think I. 1s After half, I kind of felt okay. I'm feeling good now. Like, let's get a few of these seconds back for me so that I do have that buffer still. So I remember pushing between 25 and 30 K like three minute, 301 three minute, 301 type K splits. And that is just giving me like another five six seconds in that five k. Uh, so then I probably had like a 15 second buffer at some point around 30 K. So, you know, seven miles to go, I probably had 15 seconds to play with, which is two seconds a mile. So um, but then after that point, I didn't really have a grasp of what pace I was moving at because it started getting hard, obviously. So like, I'm still checking splits, but it's starting to get to that point where you're so dialed in that I'm like having a hard time processing the the information coming to me, and I'm like, I have to kind of switch frames of mind, especially around like 35 K from trying to time trial this to like, look, I'm in a group of guys all going for this Olympic standard. If I win this group, I should make the standard. And so I switched my focus from time to let's stay with this group. This group was starting to make moves. There were definitely guys like you who could tell they were antsy and trying to keep it honest. So I was just more so responding to things around me and being a racer that lasted 78K of the race. And I think that saved me because I think it could have gotten really exhausting checking your K splits, because in a European race, you have that feedback 42 times on the course. 1s Mhm. So yeah that's a really that's a really interesting point because I do remember watching uh the, the U.S. trials, Zack panning did seem like he was checking his watch a fair bit from what I could tell. And that's probably a necessity when you're leading and you don't necessarily know, especially when the two guys behind you, they don't need the 210, you know, they just need top, you know, the top three and they're in. So he has to be attentive to that to some degree. Whereas when you do find yourself in a group that's all kind of got that same exact objective, you can probably go a little more intuitive and ride the wave, so to speak. Yeah, yeah. And I think there was one guy that broke away and won our group by a substantial margin, but I think I was the second finisher in the 208 ten group. Uh, so we had a lot of guys, I think 6 or 7 of us finished between me and 208 ten. So I was like, if we cut it pretty close, but it was nice to have those guys to work with. And I think all of us were thinking the same thing. I chatted with a British guy. Uh, Phil? No, I almost said Phil. Yeah, Phil Sussman, I said, Eric Stenson, Phil Sussman. Yeah, mixing my names here. Um, but Phil Sussman from the UK, I knew he was going into the race. I knew he had run 208 before high and that he was going to be going for it. And we talked a little bit before about working together. He was one of those guys I was keen off of in the last stages. And then, you know, I finished and we immediately embraced because we just shared that moment together. And he was actually already named to the team because the UK selected one round early. So, um, anyways, I was talking to him after the race. He was like, I didn't think we were going to get it. Like he was convinced we were going to come up like five seconds short with like 2 or 3 K to go because you're just kind of in that do or die mentality and you don't know how fast you're moving through the course. 1s Mhm. Yeah. No, it's, uh, exciting stuff for us to watch. And I'm sure you're getting pretty amped to be, uh, to be preparing for, for the next step with the process. Um, I do want to hop in a little bit of your training just leading into it. Uh, you're coached by Ryan Hall, who is a running great, as they say. Uh, so what level of, first of all, like, what level of, um, kind of partnership do you run with a coach like Ryan? Where is it? Just. Hey, man, you know what you're doing? I'm young. I'm fit. You tell me what to do. I'm going to do it. No question asked. Or is it a process more of like sitting down and saying, hey, this is like what I've found gives me confidence. This is what you think is going to work. Let's find a system that is more or less kind of fit to me based on those. How do you guys go about that kind of coaching client relationship? Yeah, yeah. It is unique with Ryan because I've had a couple other coaches and one other coach in my professional career, and then my college coach was Stone with Connor Manson, playing young. So I've had a few experiences. In my life that has given me a perspective on what works for me and what doesn't. And I'll tell you right now, I stone was the most hands off coach I've ever had, like let you kind of grab things by the reins. He gives you the workout and you kind of interpret it however you really want to. And he just kind of likes all he'll really do is like, hold the leash gently and maybe tell you to back off if he thinks you're getting way too out of control. But even then, like, he's not the type to really slam the brakes on you, he's going to let you kind of let you kind of push when you want to push and relax when you want to relax. So my college experience was like a very hands off coach, um, which is very unique for the incident. And I'm surprised, but also not surprised at the success that it's given BYU and those guys. But anyways, it's very unique for college programs, coaches to just kind of let athletes call a lot of the shots. So it's really cool and I love that. And I thought that that's kind of what I wanted my entire career. Next coach I have been, Rosario from NAS Elite is very hands on like almost every detail down to the split of every quarter in a workout. It is drawn out beforehand and you're supposed to hit that. Exactly. And your mileage is drawn out every day. Double where you're going to go. Boom. Like every detail was almost like to a tee when you meet where you run, you know, like, it's just the opposite. So it was like hands completely on the wheel. And Ryan I think is a great mix of those two. So. He will tell me what he wants me to do and he'll hold me to it. But he also lets me keep my hand on the wheel and dictate some things. And one thing we've let me take full control of the last two builds, and I think has been very helpful because is mileage so easy? Days like if I want to recover with a 70 minute run or a 90 minute run, that's on me, I just got to be ready to work out the next time. And, uh, that was something that Ryan didn't originally want to do, give me that freedom, because I think he wanted to make sure I was recovering and getting ready for each session appropriately. But I think he learned through time and through my pleading with him that I would make sure I was recovered and that that was my greatest fear, was showing up to a workout unprepared or or fried. So I ended up getting that piece in my control. And he controls everything in the workouts. I'll sometimes suggest things that sound exciting for me, and he's usually pretty receptive to that. And we'll talk at the beginning and end of every block and talk about things that we think we did well or things we can improve on. But I don't even know my workouts until the week of, uh, of the week. I don't know what I'm going to do. And sometimes he'll ask me if I have any cravings, but for the most part, I just trust that he's going to give me the stuff I need. And every now and then I will tell him like, hey, I really want to hit some long runs with a fast pace in it. And before I even get the words out of my mouth, he's like, we got that next week. So it's almost like we're always in sync. So it's been really cool to kind of have that balance for myself. 2s Yeah, it sounds like it's a great fit for you, and you sort of had that experience of both ends of the spectrum from a little bit more of a loose control versus a very tight control. And then, you know, being able to experience those. I'm sure you saw the positives and potential negatives at an individual level with either of those. And, you know, finding that next piece to the puzzle for you is probably somewhere in between. Um, yeah. And I think it's, uh, I was just gonna just add, I think. 1s As you learn. As Ryan has learned more about me, he knows what I need more. So I almost have to have less control. But at the same time, as I get older, I'm also knowing more about what I need. It's like kind of like this weird balance of like, I have more good ideas and less bad ideas, but he also is learning me faster, so I don't know where this is going as far as how much control he'll have over things in the next couple of years, but I think it is an interesting dynamic that I do like to surrender quite a bit of control to him. 2s Mhm. Yeah. And I'm sure it's a little easier sometimes knowing his pedigree with running and kind of what he's been able to do. So having that trust in your coach I think I don't think you have to be a great runner to be a great coach necessarily. But if you can be a great runner and be coaching, it's probably not necessarily something that's going to be a negative for someone like you when it comes to kind of trusting what he's got coming up for you. Absolutely. I was choosing my next coach after I left ASA elite. For whatever reason, I was really drawn to the idea of having my coach be someone that had been where I wanted to go, and I don't know why, but that was almost like a non-negotiable when I was looking around. So Ryan was an obvious fit because of his pedigree. 2s Mhm. Yeah. And it kind of highlights how I think just the balance between like this is what it takes to run whatever time you're trying to hit on paper. Like these are the inputs that are required. But from there you can get a lot more creative. There's different ways to do that, objective to the inputs can be different. So I think there's also that sort of the psychological side of things where there are going to be certain workouts that maybe feed into your psyche in a way like, hey, if I can do that, my confidence in being able to kind of continue to put down those low three minute kilometers, uh, at the end stages of a 42 kilometer race, that could be a huge value add. I had Steve Magnus on the podcast a while back, and he was talking about that. He's like, there's so much that goes into just like what your, your psyche and your mindset is on the day that allows you to maybe push through a barrier that you normally would have conceded to. And if that's what gets you to the finish line, you know, however many seconds faster than that could be, then, you know, that could be the reason for a workout, so to speak. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting because I find this especially hard to accomplish with training at altitude. I don't know if that makes sense, but I like it. I can't run to a white pace up here for very long, sustained bouts, you know, like I can do mile repeats at it. I can maybe do two mile reps, but I can't do the long threshold at exactly the pace that I needed to do in Seville. So I had to kind of trust that I was just fit enough and not necessarily get all that feedback and promise and practice. Like we tried to drop down to Camp Verde for a few sessions to try to give that confidence like, hey, this pace is doable. And we did a few times and had some good sessions, but I did drop down for one of my last big key sessions, and the goal was to kind of run to a white pace for a long threshold. But I went into it a little tired coming off of a big long run, and I couldn't. I did not on that day like I was running, probably equivalent to a low 209 pace. And it felt really hard. And, you know, that's not sea level Camp Verde, but to me, someone who's trained at altitude, it basically might as well be right. Um. 1s And yeah, I had to take confidence that the body of work was good enough and no one session told me I was ready to run. 208 ten I've that's something that I'm actually really proud of because in the past, I would have needed that feedback. I would have needed something, something to hold on to, to tell me you're ready. And this block, I really had nothing. I had nothing that I could point to that was like, that's the workout. That said, I'm an A208 marathoner. 2s Mhm. Yeah. That's interesting. That sounds like just a growth point in your career to me in terms of your ability to kind of use psychology to your advantage. Um, and kind of maybe step over something that would have previously been a hurdle for you. Absolutely. When I was in my second or third marathon builds, I remember specifically every big workout was proving ground. It was, I have to do this, or else I'm not going to be able to do this on race day. Like, and I remember thinking that way, and I couldn't get out of that cycle of thought, like I'd finish a tough, tough session and I'd be like, how the heck am I supposed to do this for 26 miles? There's no way now, like, and I don't find myself having those thought processes anymore now that I've done this is my eighth marathon, so it's really cool. I'm really proud of that. More than more than the time. I'm proud of the fact that I've lost that insecurity with the distance and with the event where I can actually just trust that I'll be ready to go. And Ryan is a big part of that. I mean, I just trust him so much. So if he tells me I can do something, even if I don't have the feedback, it's enough for me. 2s Mhm. Perfect. No, it sounds like you got a great fit there. Um, and it allows you to stay in Flagstaff too, because you were up there prior and obviously having to you don't necessarily have to move to be with a coach, I suppose. But it's uh, having them in person where you're living has to be a value add. Absolutely. I mean, Ryan's in person. Coaching is the most technical, hands on, in person coaching I've ever seen. Like, it's amazing you'll be running because he does the bike, right? So he's next to you the whole whole whole workout. And the things he's talking to you and talking you through. It's like he's in your brain and knows exactly when to say the right thing. And this is the experience of having been there, right? I'm just like I'm blown away at, like, the psychological warfare that he knows I'm going through by just looking at me and how to talk me through that and talk me off the ledges when I need to. And, and really, like, let me lean into my tendencies. And it's just like, he's like a wizard with that stuff. And like, that's something that no workout prescription or pace or anything like that can quantify. It's really just like knowing the athlete and knowing the experience. 2s Mhm. Yeah for sure. I do want to back up a little bit away from your, your more recent success and uh kind of reflect back on your, your college experience I think. Um, maybe I don't have an interesting perspective. I followed the sport pretty closely. Um, when I was in college and then after college, uh, I was coaching track and cross-country for, like, middle school and high school students. It was just kind of like, you know, part of the routine was following kind of what, what the pros were up to at the Olympic distances and stuff. And then I had a dry spell from the king of the mid 2000 teens through like early 2020, where I sort of disconnected from following Olympic distance stuff for a while. So, uh, I kind of like reversed that. A couple of years ago, I was like, I got to get back into this. This is just too much fun because a lot of, to some degree, it with some of his, like some of the some of the kids that I saw running in high school were now starting to pop up as pros and putting up some, some pretty cool results. And and you've you've, I'm sure, followed the sport really closely. So you, you're aware of like the the trajectory of everything. The last few years it was just too much to ignore. And um, going back and kind of just looking at the landscape, it's just insane to think like you. Connor Mance and Clayton Young are all from BYU, and now all three of you are 208 marathoners looking at, uh, you know, dipping your toe into that distance at the Olympics here in, in later this year. So what was it like being on a team like that? Was there like any indication to you, like we've got just some future rock stars here, or was it sort of just like, hey, we're just a really good team amongst others, and we're here to compete. Like, what was that like? Well, we definitely had a very special team. I think that roster from the time I was at BYU through the time I left, had. A dozen. Professional caliber athletes on the roster at any given time. And that's just not normal. I think we were lucky. We stumbled upon good recruiting classes. Good, good. Uh, like, the timing was just really good. Like, me and Clayton were on the BYU team for four and a half of the five years I was there. Like he came in because he served a mission. He came in to the team January of my freshman year. So I had done one semester of school, and then we did four and a half semesters, four and a half years straight through together, and we kind of rode the same exact waves of progression, like starting with just, oh, can I make the travel team? Because BYU is a very deep team too, oh, can I be making it to nationals? Can I be the best guy on the team? And we kind of had a lot of trading places throughout those years. And, and, you know, a friendly rivalry of sorts. Um, but all along that there were also other guys, there were so many guys that were so good that it was just like. Undeniably, we thought we were really good, and we had a lot of really good moments to prove that. But it was , it was very interesting. I mean, we feel like we fell short of a lot of goals in college. So it did feel like heading into our professional careers, there was a lot left on the table because we never won the team title with that group. Connor Man ended up winning the year after Clayton and I left, actually. So the 2019 year was the year BYU finally got over the hump and beat new, um. But yeah, just like we knew we were good, but we also left college probably feeling like we left a lot on the table there. So I personally feel like I've gotten a lot better at a lot of different things post collegiately. And there's been a lot of growth and it took a long time like it was rocky. So I know Clayton feels the same way. Mance on the other hand, I mean he's like, I don't want to, you know, put him on a different level. But like in high school, this guy was one of the best in the country. In college, this guy was a two time cross. Like it's almost been like a different trajectory and different story for him. Uh, Clayton and I, I think there's more parallels to like the, the ups and downs and, you know, knowing we were always talented and hard working athletes that had a lot of potential, but we had to kind of take our lumps and take a lot to the chin, rather than kind of like being the prodigy. 2s Mhm. Yeah. It's interesting because I think those different scenarios are going to be different in terms of how you just view yourself as a runner and maybe how you approach it. And another thing that, you know, Steve Magness told me that was really interesting. And obviously he's got a unique story where he was the guy in high school and, um, had all sorts of expectations set out in front of him. And he said, like, there's this, uh, there there was this like this global expectation for him at such an early age where when he looks back at it, he's like, sometimes I wonder if I'd had more of a, like a local perspective or a regional perspective at my earlier years versus having this expectation of, you know, maybe someday being one of the best at a specific distance. And what's that like? I mean, from your trajectory from, you know, high school to college and how professional did you find it challenging to embrace expectations set in front of you, or do you feel like you were able to kind of keep things a little more local and regional when it was important for those growth steps to get to where you are right now? Yeah, yeah. It's funny, my high school and college career and professional career, I think at each point you can point to no expectations. 1s Huge jump. High expectations. A little valley of decline before figuring it back out. You know what I mean? So, uh, in high school, as a freshman and sophomore, I was not special. Like, I was not like this kid that was that. The coach was, like, oohing and eyeing over because of some sort of potential I had shown. I worked really hard and I thought, I thought I was good and thought I could be good. I hit a nice growth spurt. I was a late bloomer, ended up bursting onto the scene and eventually being a pretty solid high school runner, but then came back down to earth, couldn't win the state title, couldn't do this or that, you know, whatever it may be, right? I had a lot of goals that I failed to reach, and the same thing happened in the NCAA when I got to BYU. I was an afterthought. I was basically a walk-on. I was given a book scholarship, so I wasn't officially a walk-on, but I was given $400 a semester towards textbooks my first year. So nobody was thinking, this guy's going to be the future, you know, top guy on the team, you know, scoring points at the national meet in track like that was not the expectation when I came to campus, but that was the expectation I had for myself. Two years later, I'm I, I make NCAAs, I'm already one of the best, if not the best on the BYU team. I ended up getting second at NCAA as a sophomore in the 10,000, and then I had like absolute, uh, plateau failure crumbling under pressure moments after that because it was new. Like, I didn't I almost didn't know what to do with being the man. You know, I kind of was an underdog for so long that when I was finally at the top, I kind of froze under that pressure. And I had a lot of goose eggs, and I've taken those lumps and taken them to the professional scene and, and struggled with some things, showed some promise again, but then struggled again. And finally, I feel like I'm confident in who I am as a professional athlete and and can kind of keep that perspective pretty inward while still looking to the, to the, to the top of the mountain and thinking, you know, I'd love to be contending with top North Americans, top athletes in the world, like thinking bigger and bigger over the long term, but also having a very like mature perspective on where I'm at and where I fit in right now. 2s Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I think like another trend that I've started to notice that I'd be curious if I'm just reading into this too much or this is something you're seeing too, is it seems like historically you'd get, you know, guys like yourself who found themselves doing quite well at the end of the day, when all is said and done in Division one NCAA competitions, they would sort of go through a process of focusing on kind of track stuff, maybe some shorter road races earlier on in their career, and then they would maybe work up to the marathon. Whereas now I see guys like you, Connor and Clayton, you're sort of getting right to the marathon or identifying maybe like. This is probably my strength. Therefore, why not get an early start on it? Is there any thought put into that, or has these things just kind of like circumstances that are just happening more uh, um, or less specific and it just happens to be that way for this particular situation. You can look at Connor Clayton and I as a direct consequence of the success of Jared Ward. Right. Uh, if you know who Jared Ward is, he made the 2016 Olympic team. That was my second year at BYU. So when he made that Olympic team, got sixth at the Olympics, I was an impressionable 1920 year old. So, uh, Jared was my hero. And he went straight to the marathon after college, after being a pretty good runner and then being an excellent marathoner. And I think if you don't show world class talent on the track in college, you're probably not a world class talent on the track. But I think there's something about the marathon that is attractive in the sense of like, you can convince yourself that with hard work and time and adaptation, you can become world class regardless of your talent level. And we see this specifically. I've become really. 1s Uh, recently interested in Japanese marathoning, and they all perform at a very world class level without world class track times and without. Any proof that they should be contending in majors or running 205 or 2 or six, whatever it may be. So there's something about the marathon that gave me that dreamer's puncher's chance at my all time goals, which is the pinnacle of the sport which we're talking about, which is why we're talking here, is the Olympics. Right? So here I am, hopefully preparing for my first Olympic Games as a 27 year old marathoner with eight marathons under my belt, four years of experience now at this point, and I look at it as if I've reached it. 1s The barrier of entry for the top of the world. Right. The Olympics, the biggest race every four years. And this is step one to hopefully a multistep plan to be a hopeful medal contender at one point in my life. Like I have to, I have to give myself that option, that opportunity and that open mindedness of like, what could happen four years from now in LA or eight years from now in I think it's Brisbane. It's supposed to be the 2032 games. So I don't know, like I'm just trying to have a very process oriented approach. And Jared Jared is the reason why he got six at the Olympics in 2016. And that inspired a dream in me that I could one day do that or better. 2s Mhm. Yeah. That's really interesting how that kind of set the precedent. And that was because all three of you guys had that sort of experience. Or is that more unique to you? I could only speak for myself but they did the same thing. So and I think coach Stone also, he lets people think about the marathon a lot earlier than most coaches. It's like North Americans are weird about it. Like you look at Africans and Japanese runners, they go straight to the marathon like a Japanese runner that's 21 years old. Whatever. Just ran 206 in Osaka. Um, you hear about all these Ethiopians and Kenyans running world class times in their early 20s? We think we have to be tapped out. And just like a rag just wrung out with every potential we have on the track before you even think about the marathon. And to me, that's just backwards. If you think the marathon is going to be your best event, why not take your lumps in your 20s so that when you hit your peak in your late 20s and 30s, you're actually an experienced veteran in the event. 2s Yeah. No doubt it is interesting because like you said, the NCAA doesn't really have an ideal predictor of who's going to be the best marathoners. I mean, I think you could probably argue that the best in the 10-K probably have a good shot at becoming a great marathoner, but you don't have to be great in the 10-K to be a good marathon or a great marathoner either. So yeah, it's just one of those things where if you. Yeah, like you said, if you're not, if you don't, if you don't see that trajectory in the track distances, maybe it is better for you just to get a head start and go right in. Yeah. And I, I. I try to convince everybody to run the marathon, and I try to tell them, even if they're trapped, people like you can run a full marathon and then be ready indoors. Like that's a real possibility. But they think that they're losing out on speed or something. It's like, I don't believe that. I've run a sub four mile in my build towards civil. I ran a track personal best in 2022, in the three K and five K. And I'm going to try to run a ten K personal best this spring. I don't think the marathon 1s stops you from developing on the track. It may change the way you have to approach it and what you emphasize in certain parts of the year, but I still think I could run my best five K if I decided to focus on it this spring. Like I, I believe wholeheartedly, I could run a personal best this spring in the five K if I wanted to. 2s Mhm. Yeah. Speaking of that is, uh, as much as you can share, is there any race schedule you're trying to employ between now and the Olympics that includes some shorter distance stuff as just kind of the route to. Or is that something that is, uh, um, hard to kind of fit in at this point in time? Absolutely. So I have like a mini racing season that I'm, I've laid out and I kind of had it picked like within 48 hours of running civil, which is just that's my personality. Like I was laying in bed the night of the marathon. So like I ran the marathon that morning, I couldn't sleep the night after because I was just buzzing with excitement. And so I just grabbed my phone and started looking up things and trying to figure out a race schedule and planning it. And I'm texting Ryan. It's eight hours earlier here in Flagstaff. It's probably 2 p.m. here, 3 p.m. here, and it's 11, 11:00 at night in Spain. And I'm just like, hey, I can't sleep. So I'm looking at races. What do you think about this? What do you think about this? And, uh, we pretty much nailed down a plan within 48 hours. And that's going to include, uh, I think I can share all this. It's not that secret. So, uh, a half marathon in Gifu, Japan, at the end of April. Uh, and then two, ten K's in May. Uh, one track, one road, both Canadian championships, one in Vancouver, BC, one in Ottawa. So I've done Ottawa the last two years. It's one of my favorite races. I'm excited to go back there. And one thing that I'm really upset about is I've never won a national championship. I've been sick in a bunch, I've been a third a bunch. So that's kind of the primary spring goal is like between those 210 K's in May, please just win one national championship. Hopefully too. But I gotta get that monkey off my back because that feels like a blemish on my record that I don't like. 2s Yeah, and a nice little confidence boost heading into the Olympics too, I'm sure if that happens. Yeah, yeah. And hopefully run some fast ten k's too. Not just not just when to win a championship, but hopefully lay down some times that I think I'm capable of. 1s Mhm. Yeah. Uh, how long have you been with Puma? I signed on with Puma in May of 2022. So it's coming up on the two year two year anniversary here. So they've been awesome to work with. 1s Yeah. Do you. Do you, uh, talk much with Todd Felker, by any chance? I know that name. He's in product design, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The reason I asked. Oh go ahead, go ahead. I think I met him at the tree this year for the first time, if I'm not mistaken. 2s Okay, cool. Yeah. I ask Todd. Actually, I've known him for a long time because he used to, uh, he worked for the actual parent company of Ultra Footwear, so he was helping design some of their models earlier on. Uh, so he's had a lot of input into, like, the shoes that I've been wearing and stuff. So, like, I've been staying in touch with him now that he's at Puma and, you know, he's such a shoe nerd. Um, I wanted to ask, like, so he shares all sorts of stuff with me about just not anything like secret that he shouldn't be, but, like, just like when things are kind of, like, already coming out, he's like, hey, man, this is kind of a cool new design thing I'm looking at. Um, so I'm familiar with Puma's lineup, uh, because of that. So I was kind of curious, like what shoe you're racing in these days for the marathon? Yeah. So I did, uh, actually a running economy test in the Puma lab in Boston right before I went to Seville. Comparing the deviate elite three, which is their newest shoe, the one that Fiona O'Keeffe and Dakota Lindblom wore at the US Olympic trials, and then the fast R2, one that just hit the market, I think, last week. And, um, there's like two differing opinions on which shoe you should be in based on your stride. But I wanted to confirm it in the lab, and I've been racing in the fast R2, but I started training in the deviate threes, uh, during my build and kind of had, like, this impression like, hey, both these are good. I can tell I could run a great marathon in either shoe, but let's just take it to the lab and see what works best. And we found that I was slightly more efficient in the fast R2, which was my. 1s What I thought would happen. So I had raced Houston in that I raced civil in that. Uh, so I've, I've, I've kind of narrowed it down like that's, that's a shoe that fits my stride quite well. And that's the one with the kind of, uh, similar to the alpha fly that the two separate planes where the heel and the toe have like an exposed play, and it's separate playing fields kind of. And it's, it's got this, like, nasty looking awesome toe off where the extended toe plate and like just things that when you first look at it you're like, wow this shoe is different. Like it looks different. So it's really been great. Great for my stride. So. 1s Yeah, I was curious to get your input on that because I did. I was paying attention to that at the trials. And I did notice that, uh, the Puma athletes, uh, on the women's side were wearing the deviate. And I was curious if that was something that was specific to their gait or if that was a trend that was happening with, um, more of the Puma athletes. But it sounds like you all are getting in the lab and figuring it out before you take it to the street. Noticed it seems almost like a male female thing. And I, I don't know if Puma wants it to be that way, but like the females that have been doing really well, the women that have been doing really well are, uh, are wearing the deviate threes. But if you look at Pat Tiernan, who ran 207 40 something in Houston, he wore the faster twos, Hendrik Pfeiffer and 207 15 German guy in Houston, faster twos Sandra malone ran 207 and Fukuoka faster twos I ran 208 and Seville faster twos. So there just seems to be a trend that the men that are excelling in the marathon are wearing the faster twos, and the women excelling in the marathon have recently gone deviated. And I think that that's because in order to get everything out of the fast R2, I think you have to put a lot of force into those plates. And so it helps to be a bit heavier. And if you look at Pat, Pat Tiernan is a big dude. I'm bigger than most marathoners. I think that that's something that I've noticed. I don't know if there's any positive research other than just anecdotal stuff. Uh, that would suggest that, but that's a trend I've noticed. 1s Mhm. Yeah. It's interesting. I mean it's just like a kind of broader conversation around super shoes. It is like we sort of have teased out that in most cases it's going to be an advantage to have that type of shoe on or that type of foam, I guess. And then the carbon plate, uh, versus the control shoe. But from there, you know, it can range as to which one actually works better. So it kind of adds a layer of complexity for someone like yourself when you're preparing for these things to kind of like, okay, I have to do all the things in training that I know are going to get me where I want to be, but I also have to make sure the pair of shoes I choose to wear on race day are going to be the ones that, you know, give me the highest rate of efficiency. Yeah, and I did that test. But the one thing about the marathon that you can't test in the lab is what does your stride do at 35, 40 K 24 to 26. Yeah. So it's like. 1s I just had to trust that, you know, I had done enough in the shoe and that I that the shoe was going to work for me and that I felt confident in it. And, uh, yeah, I, I got to that point with the fast start to where I was like, okay, I feel really good about this shoe. Um, I trust it. So that's, that's and and with super shoes, you know, amongst pros, we know that there's different responses for different types of strides and different athletes. So, uh, they're super responders. There's people that I think would be good if they were a pair of Crocs just because they're so efficient as is. So, uh, it is an interesting world we live in where shoes can be a piece of the puzzle, more so than they ever were. 2s Mhm. Yeah. When you're, when you're setting up your training are you pretty strategic on when you pull out a pair of stars. Because that is a different enough shoe. Or I would imagine it's not something you're going to be throwing on every day. Yeah yeah I am and Ryan is too. Ryan would fight me tooth and nail or to wear them less. I tried to not ask him what I should wear because he'll almost always default to not wearing super shoes. So I try to like, not say anything to him and just show up with just the super shoes if I want to wear those. But generally he'll tell me like no super shoes today if he wants it to be like an all trainer day or whatnot. And you know he's reasonable with it. I know some coaches that are super intense or don't don't give it any thought, but he gives it some thought. And basically when we're trying to run specific marathon pace stuff where it's like, hey, this is like race simulation, like throw on the ratios. But anything else, let's try to let's try to callus the legs and not give ourselves this, this Band-Aid that might be doling out. It might be doling, like the lower leg toughness that we're trying to build for the marathon. Because I do think at some point we. We can overuse a tool, right? So, uh, for me. I think I benefit a lot from the super shoes, so I need to be careful not to weaken my legs by overusing them. 2s Mhm. It's a really interesting conversation because like you sort of outlined there, there is the value add of let's say okay I'm going to do all my training in this super shoot. You're probably going to run more miles. And then is that tradeoff worth whatever. Like atrophying you may get off your lower leg muscles. Had you worn something a little more uh less forgiving, I should say. And yeah, I mean, there's probably a balance there, right? It's probably not like all or nothing. Yeah. I look at, like, what other people are doing, and I'm always curious, like, if we can get in our own head about this because, you know, you see on Instagram the clips of 40 Kenyans out on Moi Road and whatever, every one of them is wearing a super shoe in their long run. And I'm like, wait, like it makes long runs so much easier to wear super shoes. And Ryan's like pretty much like trainers in every long run. And I'm like, ah, but like, I could run five seconds per mile faster and feel 20% easier if you just let me wear the super shoes the whole time. But we don't. I only put on the super shoes when I'm running the pace of a marathon, basically. And, uh, yeah, it's a tough balance to strike. And I don't know if I'm doing it perfectly, but I, I'm confident that Ryan's giving it critical thought and has his theories on how to use them. And you just got to trust him on that. 2s Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. I want to pivot away from uh, one kind of logistical thing to another here, uh, and ask you a little bit about your marathon race nutrition, like what you guys are doing. Um, I've been sort of following some of the gut training, kind of hyper fueling strategies some of the cyclists have been doing in the tour de France athletes, and they're starting to kind of push some pretty insanely high numbers of carbohydrate intake during, during their, their, uh, their racing and in some cases training. Are you guys pushing that in the marathon at, at your level two, trying to get up like a lot higher than maybe would have done historically. 1s I feel like. 1s I'm getting better and better at fueling for the marathon and learning this. And this is something that obviously a lot of marathoners in general, I think are undervaluing and. For me specifically, I just practice a lot. I don't I'm not super scientific with it, unfortunately, which maybe I should be more. And I would say that smarter people than I would tell me to be a little bit more scientific, but I basically just try to consume as much as possible, as frequently as possible and see what happens. But I do have a very strong gut. It has been proven in training that I can handle a lot. So I do try to do a lot and try to push those lines so that I can see what I can I'm capable of. And for example, I can't remember the exact number. I'm going to butcher this, but I think I had 240g of carbohydrates on course as possible to consume throughout the race, and I don't think I consumed all of that, but I consumed probably 75 to 80% of that throughout the race, and that is on the higher end. I was probably at least 80g per hour, maybe pushing closer to 90. Um, or 100, but I don't. I'm not that scientific to the point where I know exactly how much I took in. I had four gels in the race, in the race where I did all that and those each had 30. And then I was sipping a carbohydrate drink every bottle that I got. Uh, and I don't know how much I consumed of each of those, so I just was sipping it and then tossing it. So. But it is something that I think I can improve upon going forward. And it means more as the conditions worsen, I think. And cycling is like one of those sports that I like, I think running should take some things from. But I also think it's dangerous to take too much from it because it is different enough. Like I think the, the, the, the, the pounding, the oscillation, like it does different things to the gut than just sitting on a bike. Like, I don't know, like running just shakes you up. So it's it is you're you're playing with fire there, especially at those speeds. I feel like you're burning pretty hot. Uh, if you're running three minute k's. So, um, I've nailed the fueling my last two marathons and felt really good about it. So I'm just going to keep doing what I've been doing and push the envelope in training and see what happens. But I think I've kind of reached optimal fueling strategy, I guess. And the only thing that can be tweaked is maybe, you know, for example, if Paris is super hot, like, what do I do with my sodium intake? What do I do with, you know, fluids versus the sweat rate and that kind of stuff? You can get little, little sciency about that stuff. And I've done that before. Like for Budapest, I was pretty specific about getting enough fluids back and knowing that I was going to sweat a lot. 1s Mhm. Yeah I mean that's all interesting stuff. I would, I would agree with you for the fueling side of things. It sounds like you know you're, you're, you're putting out of course what I would imagine is like the most you would ever really need to entertain. And then by getting 70 to 80% of that in, you're likely hitting it, hitting it clean enough. I mean like, yeah, cycling, you're always gonna be able to do more, like you said, less jostling. The research I've seen too, it's unconvincing to me that going up to like 120 plus is going to really give you a huge value add off. There may be some recovery benefits from doing that, but if you're not doing a stage race, you know, you're probably not too concerned when you finish a marathon in 208 about whether you recover 12 hours earlier or not. At that point, unless you're C.J. Albertson, you're looking to get back on the course a week later. It's interesting you say that, though, because I did fuel the best, I think this most recent one, and I felt pretty dang good 48 hours later. So like, okay, maybe that's part of it. And that's something I didn't even consider, like how it would help me recover. But I had a lot of fuel of course. And as far as my legs go, I was like, fine. Two days later. Like, I felt like I could have done a threshold session on Wednesday after it, you know what I mean? Like it was, it was a weird feeling to be like, my legs are good right now. So the course is flat. It's. And I paced it. Well, it didn't sound like there's other factors at play there but I am curious as to what factor, having done more carbs in the race than ever played in that. So I know I had more carbs than I've ever consumed in a race because I was able to just hold everything in and and and just drain gels and drink a lot of fluid. So I know I was hit in this race and I did come out of it feeling pretty good. So maybe there is something to that. 1s Mhm. Yeah. And it's like you said though, it's one of those things where you've set a precedent for yourself with some solid races with a specific strategy. So at that point it's kind of like you don't. You also want to be careful not to mess with something that's working and uh, you know, keep rolling it out there as long as it keeps responding. Yeah, yeah. There's things I haven't tried that Ryan might want me to try. He's curious, like, I've been kind of hesitant on trying ketones. I've. I've dabbled but like. That's something that is entering our space, and I'm not sure whether or not I should like there's obviously like there's a risk with how it affects your gut and, you know, but there's also the potential benefit of adding another fuel source in the race that I, that Ryan wants me to try and that I've, I've dabbled with in training but haven't had the courage to throw in my bottles for race day yet. Um, so we'll see. That might be something I mess around with in this build to Paris, and maybe I can get confident enough in it that I can add that. I don't know what you know about that. It seems like you're kind of, like, more of an expert on the fueling side, just being an ultra guy and being in this space and being a student of the sport. 1s Yeah. You know, it's definitely something I've gotten curious about. I actually had one of the leading researchers on exogenous ketones on the podcast a couple episodes back, and it's really pretty interesting stuff like the research isn't necessarily conclusive in one way or the other. There's like promising studies that will say just about everything. And there's ones that'll say, like, you know, it's going to tank your performance. So it is a little bit of a of an unknown in a lot of cases, like, like most things that are kind of early in their in their, their process, I suspect we're going to learn some things that we can kind of safely say, this is what this is the application for this and this is how you go about it. Um, for you, I would be if I had to guess, um, and take this with a grain of salt. But like, I would guess that, like, exogenous ketones for something, you're at the intensity you're doing. I would maybe shy away from doing that intra competition. Um, and maybe lean into that a little more as, like a recovery tool. So some of there's kind of two sides to this, this research. One is like the actual performance of taking it during your competition or during your workout. And then there's the protocol to say, like, all right, take us some exogenous ketones after your big training session. And then maybe again that night before you go to bed as a way to speed up recovery, where I think that second one maybe has a little more promise than the former one for something that you like. Yeah. So I've heard that as well. Yeah. So I yeah, I need to play with it because obviously at this level percentage points matter. So if we can find it, if we can find it in something like that. It's a pretty easy way to improve recovery and improve performance. 1s Mhm. Yeah. It's just part of the process nowadays. Yeah. Like you said you've turned over all the big stones like you've done the, you've optimized the training, you've optimized the, the sleep, the recovery and all that, the nutrition I'm sure. And all that stuff is all things that you've been thinking about probably since college. And now it's like, what can you do to grab that extra half percent, 1% in efficiency or recovery that kind of takes you to that next, the next spot? Yeah, absolutely. 2s I wanted to follow up real quick on your hydration strategy too, because this is another thing I've been geeking out on a little bit more over the last couple of years is things like, you know, sweat loss rate and then like sodium replacement and things like that. Have you, have you done a test where, you know, like, I mean, I guess sodium loss is maybe not as big of a concern for you in the marathon, but it could be if it's hot enough. How much of that have you looked at so early in my marathon career? I had a really, really rough experience at Boston 2021, the year it was in the fall, and after that I kind of tore everything down and asked a lot of questions about what I was doing wrong. And one of the things that we had a theory on was that I was under fueling and, uh, not replacing. It was a humid day that day, and I maybe just did not replace enough fluids. Uh, so I, I worked with Trent Stallworth, who's a Canadian, uh, you know, what is he, exercise physiologist? I don't I don't know his title, but he's smart, a smart guy. So, uh, yeah, he's really, like, dialed into all this stuff. And he had me go through a protocol where, um, I would weigh myself before and after sessions, weigh my bottles, just see how much I was losing. As far as fluids in certain conditions, you know, know what the conditions were out there and, and kind of play with that. And I did that for a build. And I think it just taught me. That I needed to feel a little bit more, take a little bit more fluids in like a very simple application. And then I stopped being scientific about it and just saying, okay, take one more sip every time. Take one big sip every time or something, you know? Um, yeah, I, I like to try to simplify things and take a little less thought into those things. So I'm not the kind of guy that's gonna, like, mark a line on my bottle, fill up to that line, know and say, you have to finish this bottle every time you get it. It's more like, uh, am I doing 80% of what I need to do every time? Like, just like getting just the baseline, right? And I'm hoping that I'm eliminating risk factors. So yeah, I, I, I will probably play with it a bit more this summer with the fact that the Olympics and World Championship races are always hot, so it's definitely not going to be cool temps in Paris. So I think we can count on at least humidity and mildly warm conditions. So, um, yeah, I'll probably play with it again and try to just see what I need to take in and, and just try to be really on top of it there. 1s Mhm. Yeah. No it sounds like you're going about it in a way that I would imagine is productive. It's like you're doing, you're looking into it. So you're, you know what you need. And then once you know that it's like do you really want to have the cognitive load of stressing about like an ounce here, an ounce there when you're out there trying to dedicate all your cognitive abilities to focusing on hitting those splits. And it's like to a certain point, it needs to become intuitive so that you can unload that cognitive burden of having to think about it. It sounds like that's where you're at. Yeah. I think some runners, they're like very Type-A. Like, I don't know what the right word is. You know, obsessive over these things, right? I think of myself more a little bit like I think about a lot of these things, but I want to kind of be a dumb jock out there, like when I'm racing and just like, like, not worry about that stuff. So if I can assess the problem outside of races and then just be as stupid as possible on race day and like, just turn all my focus on just being a competitor and being my fiery self. I think that's where I get the most out of myself. So I run pretty, pretty hot when it comes to my thought process during a race. So I kind of have to eliminate variables that can take away from the racing itself. 2s Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting stuff. Um, I did want to jump into uh, some stuff around just like kind of your perspective that you have with, uh, preparing for the Olympics versus what you've done in the past. So like, you ran at the World Marathon Championships last year. Um, it did quite well. I think you were 19th, right? 18th after one of the guys in front of me got, uh, popped for doping. So I'll count myself as 18. Oh, yeah, that's right. You can only move up from here. That's it. Yeah. So one of those situations I see on World Athletics now says I was 18, so they took him out of the results. So whatever. Okay cool. Well we'll see. Give it a few more years. Maybe you'll move up a couple more spots. It's likely unfortunate. 2s Um, yeah. So I mean, generally speaking, I would imagine in terms of, like, having experiences that you can lean on that are going to be something you can say like, okay, this isn't all brand new to me. When you start going through the process of traveling to Paris and then ultimately getting ready for the event itself. Um, were there any takeaways from the World Championships where you're just like, okay, this is something I need to do differently because of this scenario that you maybe wouldn't have known had you not done that. Yeah. Uh, I am like, so, so glad I did Budapest last year and Eugene the year before, specifically Budapest though, because it was a European one. And the Olympics are in Europe as well. So I'm going to do a lot of things very similarly as far as timing. I go over there, um, you know, heat, heat, adaptation processes, all those things because those are part of it. Um, I think. Where I lack top end time talent. You know, I'm not a 2 or 3 guy, not a 2 or 2 guy, whatever, which I will be racing a handful of, obviously at the Olympic Games. I can gain on heat prep, you know. Timing is like getting over there, being, making sure my body's in the right time zone. You know, all the things that I like are real when you're talking about traveling across the world and competing. I've kind of checked those boxes as far as an experience goes, uh, so I'm going to be going to Europe. Two weeks ago, I went to Budapest. I'll spend the first week in Barcelona. Same thing I did for Budapest. Get some heat adaptation in a very hot climate. Go to Paris a week before, you know, running the course a little bit, do this and that, and then also, uh, just kind of knowing how global championships play out differently than, say, Seville. Seville's a time trial. Uh, the global championship races. You have no idea what's going to happen when the gun goes off. Somebody can make it fast right from the gun. It can be a blitz, or people can really dilly dally until later in the race. And I think with Paris being a difficult course and the conditions possibly being brutal, there might be a lot of measuring early in the race. Um, and it could play. Play out in a way that benefits people that are really smart in how they how they fuel, how they pace, how they how they manage the hills and prepare for the hills. So I'm looking to gain a lot of small edges with my experience in the previous World championships and also, um, the details with course prep and condition prep. 2s Mhm. Are you doing like a sauna protocol to prepare for the heat or are you getting all the chicken coop lights lined up in front of your treadmill like CJ. So I actually have chickens but I don't even have the chicken coop lights. So uh, I, I've got one piece of that. But no I won't do I won't do that. What I did last summer was I just did all my easy running in black long sleeves, black tights. And here in Flagstaff it's warm as soon as the sun comes up. It's not hot. It's not a scorcher. But the sun is strong. If you're wearing dark clothing covering your skin like trapping heat in wearing a, you know, a windproof jacket, that just kind of creates a sauna suit. And I did some stuff with core temp, like the brand core, like where you wear the thing and it measures your core temp. And I got it super high in the summer last year training and I got really comfortable with that. It was crazy how quickly I adapted to wearing basically sweat suits in 80 degree temperature runs at 7000 ft in the baking sun. You know, like I was doing things that I was like, oh, this is like normal for me now. Like I'm not even. It's like not even a thing. And then I go to Barcelona where it's 95°F, 80% humidity, baking in the sun. And, I'm comfortable out there. And I got really confident about the week in Budapest because it was so hot there. And I was like not noticing the heat anymore. I got to the point where, like, it was comfortable. And in the race I did all the heat measures. You know, I had ice packs on all my bottles. I, you know, the chemical ones, I'd break it, I'd hold it. I cool my core temp through my palm. I would, you know, squeeze the sponge over my head. Whatever it was, I was doing all the things I could to counteract the heat. But I never once thought about the heat while I was racing. I was doing the things, but I felt comfortable in the heat, and I, I take a lot of confidence in that specifically. So I hope Paris is just a hot, muggy, hilly, nasty day. 2s Mhm. Yeah. Do you have a goal for Paris that you're trying to target from a position standpoint? Yeah. I think i'm having been top 20 in the last two World championships, both were deep years, talented years I think with the, the Olympics being notorious for uh having a lot of anticipation and build like I think a lot of people shoot themselves in the foot in the lead up and in the race itself, you know, going for medals and going for broke and glory and all that stuff. I think I will deploy a plan that gives me a chance at top ten, and that would be like a really cool stepping stone, I think, in this first experience to build upon for four years from now. So that's kind of what I'm setting my sight on. And obviously I can't control ten guys or better than me on the day. Uh, there's certainly going to be ten guys more talented than me on the day. But, um, I'm going to give myself a chance at that and, and plan as if that's the goal. And hopefully I can exceed that goal. So we'll see. 2s Mhm. And it's like you said, there are uh there's guys that will be in that field that are 202 marathoners. Um, there's going to be guys a minute or two behind them on paper who are thinking to themselves, you know, it's I'm going for a medal or bust, and some of those guys will blow up a lot. So it's like it's. Yeah, yeah. So if you run your race, you know, that's one of those things where it's like on paper, the guy's maybe 4 or 5 minutes faster than you, but at the race itself, maybe not. Yeah, yeah. And in Budapest I beat a lot of 205, 206 guys. And the way I see it is, I'd love to be in a position where, fitness wise, I make another jump from here. To the games. Maybe a minute better, maybe two minutes better. Fitness wise, who knows. And then I can beat people that are maybe two minutes, three minutes better than me on paper. So if I can, if I can start to, like, eke myself into the world where I'm competing with the 204 guys in the race, that's when you can like, there's not going to be ten more than ten, 200 for better guys. So, um, that's the way I kind of frame it. They're going to be going for something a lot bigger than I will be. And I'm not saying I'm ruling out the opportunity to medal. Who knows? You never know what the race will, will, will play out like. But I'm not going to go out there on the start line thinking about metal or bust, like if the race gets out of hand and I know I can't run. You know, whatever they're doing for 42 K, I'm going to check off. Like I'm not going to stay with them for the medals, you know. So I'm going to run, I'm going to run my own race. And that's going to be of benefit in the finishing place, no doubt. 1s Mhm. Yeah. And like you said you just never know. I think we saw that at the last Olympics with Molly where it's like no one was guessing she was going to come away with a medal there. And she just 1s came, came away with a medal. Yeah. And that's inspiring. I know Molly well as a Puma athlete and as a fellow Flagstaff runner. So yeah, I mean I would love I'll chat with her whenever I can get the chance to kind of talk about how her approach was, because I, I do think that it's not crazy to think that someone who's on the line and fit and ready to go could, could have that day if, if the cards, you know, line up in their favor. 1s Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And like you said you're in Flagstaff. Uh there's a lot of pros and Flagstaff these days. Do you all hang out quite a bit or train together or is it more compartmentalized than that. We all imagine you're out there just doing these big 20 person group workouts. That's not the case for me. Uh, it is the case for some of the groups. Um, I train with a few of my training partners. I, uh, I have friends that I'll do easy runs with, but I actually like to work out, like, alone a lot. So, um, this last build, I actually was the first build under Ryan where I probably had a workout partner 90% of the time because BSM was training for the US Olympic Trials. And so our workouts lined up, like perfectly. But, um, no, I don't. I don't link up with too many people outside of my group. Uh, I'm friends with all those people. If I see them, I'm not like, I don't look the other way. I'll. I'll gladly, gladly share some miles with them. But like, if I show up to Lake Mary Road and it's 8 a.m. and there's two other groups there that are starting their workout at the same time, I'm not like, hey, what do you have? Like, maybe we can mix in like it's usually like, I got my workout, you got yours. Have a good one out there. Maybe we'll warm up together. Mhm. 1s Yeah. And it's specific enough probably in most cases where you're making a compromise if you're doing too much of that. And then, um, it kind of leads into my next question too, is like, you also have other things. You're building this stuff around too, like you're a husband, a father of two. Um, there's a lot going on in your life outside of just the training and racing, and you have to make all that fit as well. Absolutely. I think I've, I, uh, the way I frame it is I've chosen to live a life that's a lot harder than, than most professional runners. It's very rewarding and it gives me a lot of purpose. And I unintentionally made me a better athlete. But there's no doubt there's way more challenge when you have to get home to help take care of children. And, you know, the highs and lows of having a toddler are very frequent and intense. Um, so I think it's definitely different. I have a lot of friends that are just bachelors. And I'm every now and then I look over and I'm like, yeah, that sounds nice. You can kind of just do whatever you want, but I, at the end of the day, I'm really grateful for the situation I'm in as it is. It's definitely that I've improved as an athlete substantially since the birth of my first kid, and I don't think that's a coincidence. I think it's given me a lot of purpose, and it's given me, uh, a great way to kind of compartmentalize, which I think great athletes and great performers need to do. Um, there's a lot of, like, hype culture around obsessing over your craft and David Goggins this, you know, but in reality, I benefit from going home and being a dad and then going when I when I run, it's my escape, you know? It's my time. It's the selfish hours in the day and it's helped me not be too obsessive about my craft, which I could have easily been in my younger years. 1s Mhm. Yeah. It's an interesting topic I think, I think there's a balance there. I think there's like you can get two relaxed in terms of what you have that you're essentially responsible for outside of the running. So to the degree where I think sometimes like if you just incubate yourself to the degree where all you're doing is doing that workout and then just relaxing and recovering for the next session, and you know, the quality of your training session is going to make or break your day. That doesn't necessarily play out well either in your psyche. So I think obviously you want to have enough control where you're not losing too much sleep or like missing key training components. But at the end of the day, I think it's good to have outlets. And those outlets, uh, can sometimes add a little bit of stress at times, but they don't necessarily have to be to the degree that it does anything other than make you maybe a little more resilient. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I brought my kids to Spain with me, and when we arrived, the first day was hard and I thought, oh, I made a great mistake here. Like, this is gonna backfire big time. And then by the time the race played out, I was so happy that they were there. And it was pretty magical to finish that moment and then have them at the finish line ready to celebrate, because it would have been a little, little sad to have that moment that big of a moment, one that, you know, quite honestly, will change my life in some ways. Like some things will remain the same, but I think I've done something that will forever change who I am. And, uh, having the people that are the most impactful on that journey. Be there for the finish and be there for the post-race celebrations and the pre-race emotions. Uh, it was very, very powerful. 1s Mhm. Yeah. I recently had Hayden Hawkes on the show and he's um, he's a very, very international competitive ultra runner with a family. And he'll bring his family with him on some of the international races and things like that. And it's, uh, it's one of those things where your, your kids are probably too young at this point to really take away a big message from this, but eventually they'll be old enough if you bring them with you like they're getting like some great life experiences, checking out new places, other cultures, different countries and things like that to the degree where I'm sure they will, you know, when they remember their childhood, that stuff is going to be something they that cements in their head as like a big value add from an experience standpoint. Yeah, yeah. After that Spain trip, my wife and I, uh, talked about how we do this more often and, and in different ways and, and what is the, the ceiling on like what, what what what opportunities could be because of what I do in the nature of it. And I have some cool ideas that I'm cooking up that hopefully give my kids that experience, like, like you're talking about. And obviously my son, he'll be three this year. So a lot of the things I'm doing now might not cement him into his psyche, but maybe in a couple of years it'll be pretty formative. 1s Yeah. No doubt. Um, this has been awesome. Rory. Uh, it's always fun to chat with someone like yourself who is, uh, you know, trending up in, in sport and in life and having the willingness to kind of share some of your experiences and things like that. I know you've, uh, more recently started kind of making some more YouTube content and things like that. Is there going to be like a series that highlights your bill to the Olympics? Absolutely. I loved doing long form content for the first time ever with YouTube. I've received a lot of positive praise, uh, especially after several people loved that vlog with that trip, and I was really proud of it. I think it'll be something I like. You're talking about my kids. Like, they may not remember the trip, but now there's this like timestamp proof of what happened out there. And, you know, in a couple of years they can watch that. And it can hopefully, you know, be a special memory for all of us. So I'm going to keep doing it. Uh, I'm hoping to bring on some sort of way to offset the cost, but I will invest in myself and hopefully that figures itself out later, because it does cost a lot of money because I pay someone else to produce all the content. So, uh, sure. Yeah. I'm trying to bring sponsors on and increase my sub count and get some revenue there. I just became monetized. So, you know, this is just details, but, uh, I will do it is what I'm trying to say, but I'm hoping to make it a little bit easier on myself because there was an upfront cost to go around because it was a new concept. So hopefully with the proof of concept, I can do it even better and more frequently going forward. 2s Yeah. I mean, I think you're thinking along the right lines. It's one of those things where if I look back at kind of the onset of my running career and what I did along the way, that kind of keeps me in it to some degree. It is a lot of the content stuff. So it's like, you know, when I first started ultrarunning, it was like you raced well or you didn't get a contract that was really all there was to it. It's like there's magazine articles and things like that, and you tend to have to be racing well in order to get a lot of access to that. Whereas now it's like, you know, you can have a podcast, a YouTube channel, social media, stuff like that. These are all value adds to your sponsors and things like that. So there's definitely a payoff for you at the end of that if you keep kind of putting that content out there. And that's me, I consider running to be my career, not just my passion, it is my passion, but it is my career as well. And I'm constantly thinking about ways to add value to myself, to put myself in a position of leverage and give myself more time in this sport. And regardless of performance, I want to be bringing great value back to my sponsors. And also I, I enjoy it, I enjoy sharing, I think it's cool to connect with others through, you know, different platforms, and YouTube was the scariest one to do, but also the most rewarding so far. So I'm very excited to continue that journey. 2s Yeah, yeah, you do run the risk of someone telling you, like if you had done this differently, you would run one second per mile faster or something like that. But people in today's culture also like to call you an influencer, like degrade you because you're not because you're not putting every ounce of your being into your craft. But I know this about myself, that that actually doesn't translate to more success. If I was, you know, living like a monk where all I did was train and meditate, I don't think I would be a better athlete by any means. So. 1s Yeah, I like once a runner as much as the next guy does. But yeah, you don't necessarily need to lock yourself in a cabin and do nothing but training. There's plenty of other outlets. Yeah, exactly. So that's what I've learned about myself. And I'm sure I'll have more and more haters and detractors because I'm putting out more stuff. But hey, I know that people are liking it too, so I don't. I try to cut out that noise and just enjoy the process. 2s No doubt. No. Most people are loving it, myself included. So we appreciate you sharing the journey. It's always fun to have that stuff and be able to follow along. I mean, to some degree, the people who actually care and that, um, are meaningful inputs to are just more invested in your result then because they have a storyline that they've been following, they see what you're doing. And then when you go out and have a good result, they're more attached to it. They feel like it was part, part of something that they were along for the ride on. Absolutely. Yeah. I'm learning that. And that's, that's the draw here is um, yeah. I mean, we are only as valuable as the eyeballs that look at us. Right. So I'm a walking billboard at this point. So how do I get more eyes on the billboard thus bringing more value to Puma and in turn giving me more value. So it's like I think about it that way, and I know that that can be, uh, you know. Seen as disingenuous or whatnot, but I'm just being myself, having fun with the content and stuff. So I think I'm trying to find that perfect balance like everyone else is. So it's been a process. So I'm enjoying it. 2s Awesome. Well, where can people find you, your YouTube channel, social media accounts, websites or anything like that? Yeah, YouTube, obviously we just talked about that. That's the one that I'm trying to push the hardest. That's my, uh, that's my baby right now. And that's just my name, Rory Linkletter. Uh, and then I'm on Strava, uh, x and Instagram, uh, as like my primaries, Strava being my favorite of all social medias. But maybe all the hardcore people already know about that. So, um, yeah, uh, at the pop of links on X, which is a funny random name, but anyways. And then Rory underscores Linklater on Instagram, so. 1s Perfect. Well, I'll definitely link all of those in the show notes and the episode landing page so listeners can go and check out what you're up to and, uh, cheer you on in your route to Paris and beyond. But thanks a bunch for taking some time to chat. Thanks for giving me a platform to share a little bit about myself. I hope your listeners, uh, come along for the journey to Paris. 1s No doubt. Take care.