Episode 375: Elov Olsson - Tunnel Hill 100 Mile Record
Elov Olsson is a Swedish ultramarathon runner, who has spent his career targeting both flat runnable surfaces, as well as mountain courses. He recently raced the Tunnel Hill 100 Mile, where he broke the course record with a time of 11 hours 26 minutes 19 seconds, placing him amongst the fastest 100 mile performances of all time.
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Check Out My Endurance Series:
Episode 337: The Long Run Considering the Variables
Episode 344: Endurance Training Simplified
Episode 346: Short Intervals Simplified
Episode 348: Long Intervals Simplified
Episode 352: Proper Aid Station Navigation
Episode 356: Easy Run - Simplified
Episode 363: Mental Training For Endurance
Episode 366: Race Course Specific Training
Episode 369: Speed Work Distribution & Double Threshold Sessions
Episode Transcript
How are you feeling after I guess you've had a little over a week to kind of recover, so I'm guessing your legs are probably starting to bounce back a bit. Yeah, the legs are okay. The head is not that good. I think it's a combination between jet lag and then the race. 2s Yeah, yeah. How long were you in the States before the race? I came on Tuesday before, so. Okay, but I think so. You didn't have too much time to acclimate? No, I think it was a good thing because I was pretty 1s not so sleepy in the morning. So 1s I think it was a good thing for the race. I was like, it was easy to get up early and eat breakfast and do my thing. So. 1s Mhm. Yeah. It was fun to watch the race this year because for one you had reached out to me a little bit before just kind of asking about the course itself, because I think you had had your eyes on doing something, something flat and fast in the 100 mile distance. And, you know, I've been on that course a couple of times. So when you reached out, I was really excited because I've been following your career and met you at world championships for the 100 K in the past. And I was like, If I've been confident that the Tunnel Hill hundred mile is a sub 11.5 hour course, and I just was waiting for someone to show up and do it. Yeah, I've given it a shot a couple of times, but I haven't had a day that would get close enough to solve 11.5. But when you said you were signing up, I was like, you, love might be the man for the job. This could be an interesting one. So I got to follow the race and was just excited to see kind of the splits play out over the course of the day. So I mean, today I want to chat to you about tunnel Hill 100. What went into the training for that? The race itself, but also just kind of your your entire career as an ultra marathon runner, because I think as the sport gets more competitive, it gets more and more difficult to be somebody who kind of enjoys the full offerings of what the sport has, from the mountains to the roads to the tracks and all that stuff. And you've been somebody who has done, done quite well at dabbling in a variety of different stuff, and I'm always interested to hear from people like that who don't just necessarily focus on one aspect of the sport. Yeah, yeah, it would be a funny conversation. I think it was. It's just been a wild ride. 1s No doubt, no doubt. I have to ask you two. I think the first time we met in person was at the World Championship hundred K 2016, in Spain, and I remember that one and Sweden's team specifically because after the race, the Team Sweden and Team USA, we went out and indulged in some of the fine wine and cheese that was offered in the, in the, in Spain and had a good time both on the course as well as after the course. So I remember you were on that team. I believe that was your first 100 K championship. Am I right about that or had you done it before then? Yeah, it was the first year I did the flat 100 A and I got in the World Champs team the same year. And I managed to do pretty well I think. 1s Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was looking at your world Championship performances, and that was actually one of the reasons why I was excited to see what you would do at Tunnel Hill, because just looking at kind of how the trends went with that, you, you had some good performances where you were like 10th or just outside the top ten, then running in kind of the mid to high six hour range. And then this last previous championship, you went there and moved up a bit, finished seventh with a 6.5 hour, 100 K, which in my mind a 6.5 hour 100 K is suggestive of having the potential to dip under 11.5 hours for sure on a course like Tunnel Hill. And my next question always with that is okay, there is a big enough difference between a flat hundred K and a flat hundred mile where you can be a really good 100 K runner, and if you don't know how to execute a flat 100 mile course, that your skills may work against you to some degree, because you can get out a little too aggressively and they just pay dearly. And on a course like Tunnel Hill, where you have that slight uphill on the out and back, the second mountain back, you come down that to finish. So if you have legs, you can come flying down that last spot. And that was the part where I missed stepping in 2018, as I didn't give myself enough legs really, to really take advantage of that downhill at the end and gave back a fair bit of time. So what I wanted to do is look at what your splits looked like when you ran 6.5 hours of 100 K and just gauge, is Ellerbe going to be the guy who's going to be conservative enough early on to make this happen? Or is he going to be the guy who goes out so fast in the beginning that he pays for it dearly at the end? And your splits at world Hunter K were about as good as I've ever seen at 100 K Championships in terms of being fairly close to even between 50 K, first 50 K and second 50 K, I mean, that race always gets out fast, so you're probably going to have a slight positive split just to be kind of in it, so to speak. But I was really impressed with your splits and how you arrived at 6.5 hours. And I was U1 thinking to myself, if you love to pace yourself, right, that first 50 miles, it's going to be exciting to see what you can do in the second half. Talk to me a little bit about just strategy with these flat races. Do you have a pacing strategy that you tend to kind of look at when you're deciding how to kind of put yourself out there? 1s I look at both of them, their pacing. 2s It depends on how good the training has been, how confident in pacing is. And I also try to look how I feel in the pacing during the race, because. 1s In 100. I don't I don't want to go too fast, but it should be a bit fast. I think it's still like that. Uh, it's not that far, but it's far, like. Are you going out too fast? Your legs can, 1s like, be trash after halfway in, like. So I tried to find the perfect spot, like where I can not lose too much in the end. And 1s and even more so in the 100 miles because it's another 60 K, so you have to have that endurance. 1s But this time it's maybe the second time I tried to run faster at a hundred miles. And then this time it's actually the first time when I focused on it for a longer time, like really building up for it. So 2s I got into it like I really want to try to. I Felt really relaxed for a very long time during this race. So that was my aim to really feel relaxed, just do my thing with the nutrition and build up, mile after mile like consistency and not doubt myself that I can run this fast. 2s Mhm. Yeah. The confidence to be able to stick it is definitely a part of it because I think of it as like you have this, you're dealing with two batteries: your physical battery and your mental battery. So if you doubt yourself and in your mind you're constantly second guessing what could be an appropriate effort that could become problematic because you can just wear yourself out mentally from just stressing out essentially about not being able to do it. So coming in with the confidence that you think you can actually hit the paces you're looking at, it makes it a lot more manageable. On that mental side of things, 1s I'd like to hear about the kind of mental approach that you took for the race itself. But I do also want to rewind a little bit . Just since you mentioned it, talk a little bit about your training as far as preparing for the Tunnel Hill 100 mile. When did you decide I'm going to begin a training cycle for a flat 100 miler? And once you did, did you have a strategy at which you were going to kind of employ throughout the training in terms of like benchmarks you were going to try to hit or specific workouts you wanted to do that would suggest you would be ready. 1s Yeah, yeah, I think I decided to go for Tunnel Hill. 1s Maybe it was right before ultra this year. So it was maybe early August, I decided. So I had an ultra 90 K uh, on maybe the 20th of August. Yeah. And then I was like. 1s See where, how much damage my body took from that and then start building up for this race. 2s I got really sore from comrades this year, so. I don't think I really got in shape for ultra ultrasound in time, so I didn't really get all out on that day. And so just the second week after that race, I felt like I could start training right now. Not to do too much, but this weekend I can do like 120 K and then start to build up towards higher mileage. A. 1s So I had a plan. I counted the weeks before Donna Hill and 1s I considered I have. I can do three blocks with the three weeks where I can put two high mileage weeks and one a little bit lower. So that was my aim strategy to do like three weeks blocks and to push it a little bit. And then. 6s A recover for one week to to have the mental capacity during the training to like push it a little bit. Yeah. I think my sweet spot is between maybe 180 to 210 km a week. Much more of I think it tends to be maybe a little bit too much. But 1s so my high mileage week was between 170 to 100 213 km. 3s Mhm. Yeah, that sounds high and reasonable to me. I think the part where people go wrong with mileage like that is they don't back off of it at all, and then they find themselves doing that on such a frequent basis versus it sounds like you kind of listen to your body and work up to it, peak at that, and then probably taper a little bit as you're kind of getting closer to the event, so you're able to make something that would maybe be unsustainable in the long term, sustainable in the short term, in order to get a race in. And then it's about just kind of nailing that recovery piece to the puzzle after the race itself. So you can correct me if I'm wrong about any of that in your particular experience, because I know you've been around long enough to know the ins and outs of going into one training cycle in the next. Yeah. 3s Did you do any sort of speed work during those higher mileage weeks, or is that something you typically address earlier in the training? Uh, I had, especially during my high mileage weeks. Uh, I did maybe one interval session a week, uh, maybe with the half marathon intensity during like one k intervals. So just one interval session a week. Otherwise it was just a more or less distance running maybe. 1s And one 1s long run I think. 2s Mhm. Yeah I was looking at your Strava just to kind of see some of the stuff that you were doing to prepare before this interview, and it did look like you had come on a couple of things that stuck out one or a few things actually. One was consistent volume at the intensity that you were going to be targeting at Tunnel Hill, which was in that kind of mid to high six minute range. Then there was that kilometer repeat, which looked like it was probably around your threshold intensity, because, I mean, half marathon for you is probably about threshold somewhere in that neighborhood, I would guess. And then a long run and it looked like a pretty good blend of workouts. The one thing I wanted to ask you about is when you're doing your long run for something like 100 miles, is there a number you're typically targeting for that or a time duration? I always find it to be an interesting question for ultramarathon runners, because they're sort of like the traditional long run that we're looking for from an adaptation standpoint. But then you get these long races like 100 miles where like there's probably some reason to go beyond that at times just to work on things like gear, nutrition, pacing and everything like that. How do you go about structuring your long run development? Uh, I think it's. 1s Easier for the 100 mile. The hundred mile pace is better for the long, long runs because it's not that fast to do for maybe 65 K, 1s but if you're doing that for 100 K, it's 1s not that it's easier to do too much of the 100 K speed. I think so, and my strategy was to do the longest long runs well enough before the race, so I didn't get to. So it was a positive thing, not a negative thing to get close to the race. And so I tried to get the longest long runs a little bit early on and then focus more on getting the feel for the speed and like just keep on building a little bit and. 1s Try to nail the race like. 1s Feeling wise? 2s Yeah. And the paces you are hitting too. It is one of those things where you really don't have opportunities to walk. If you're going to average what ends up being something in like, I think it was your pace was like a 651 per mile or something like that. I mean, that's fast enough where, like if you find yourself walking, you're giving yourself a huge hurdle to get over because you're going to have to make up for that with faster pacing stuff. So it's one of those things where I just think when those scenarios present themselves, having a cumulative volume over time at the intensity that you're going to have to run for that 100 miles becomes kind of that biggest target. So whether you do a 65 kilometer long run or a 45 kilometer long run, it's probably more important to think about which one of those is going to impact your overall volume at the intensity you need to sustain for the duration of that 100 miler, and then the one that probably wins out is the one where you can get more volume by the end of the day over the course of the plan, versus the one that kind of steals from future volume. So it is interesting to hear you talk about doing that longer, long run earlier in the cycle so that you wouldn't necessarily step on the training. That would be most pivotal for the race itself. Yeah. 3s So you get to Tunnel Hill. Last year they had terrible weather at Tunnel Hill. So were you worried at all that there was, like, going to be a potential? That you did all this work and flew over from Sweden and you get a bunch of snow or anything like that? Yeah, we saw that and just were just hoping for the best. And we got a really perfect day, I think. 1s Mhm. Yeah. And the thing I think we talked about this a little bit actually on Instagram last year was the exception I think almost every year at Tunnel Hill. It's just like what you had this year. So I tell people you should probably bank nine out of ten times. You're going to get what you had versus something similar to last year. So I was happy that it ended up playing out that way. And I didn't mislead you at all. Yeah, 1s yeah, I'm happy to. 2s Yeah. Okay. So you get out there on race day, the weather's perfect. You probably know at that point that's not going to be a variable. You have to be concerned with. The race starts. What is your thought going in that first out and back. Because I always find that one interesting because it's about a marathon. It's the first chance you get to kind of come back through the start finish line. You've got enough miles in your legs where you're probably starting to be able to piece together, like how aggressive you have been so far versus how conservative or kind of where on that spectrum of conservative to aggressive. You're starting to kind of feel things out. Where were you at mentally when you kind of came through that section? 1s I felt really strong for the day. It was a bit of a chilly morning. I don't know what in Fahrenheit, but I felt a little bit cold in my hands, and I used the arm sleeves and gloves until the marathon mark before I took them off and and the temperature was going up and, but I felt really chill during those that first marathon, I was just like, this feels so great, I feel perfect, the speed is perfect. I found myself in a perfect pace and after the marathon, I just like the first uphill that you talk about up to Tunnel Hill. Was. 2s I was thinking of that. Like I can let the pace go down a little bit on the uphill and then let the pace go up on the downhill. Not too much, but. 2s Enough that I like to get the pace back from the uphill running. If not , I don't need too much speed. So I try to pay that in how fast I could go downhill. But yeah, I think I nailed that first loop pretty good. And 1s I really think it was interesting when I started to come closer to 100 K, like it felt like I was going faster and faster one time, like. 4s Mhm. So you felt like the momentum was picking up for you a little bit versus feeling like you were kind of starting to wear thin. Yeah. 2s I know there were some other guys in the race that were also targeting some fast times that day, and it seemed, at least from the live tracker, that you took the lead early on, but maybe not by a large margin or anything. So there were some guys in the early stages that were kind of just just behind you. Were you aware of that or thinking about that at all? Or was it just like, I know what effort I need to dial up, whether I'm in the lead or in third place doesn't matter to me, because if I nail this, my time is going to be what it is. 2s I know, I know, I have met the guys before the race who I knew were going for fast times. I met the race. I ran with Reese. 1s I can say his last name, but. And Phil Young, I. I say hi to. And the Taggart I knew was going out fast. So when I first turned around, I said hey to them and like I knew who was going for the hundred miles, so. A I was checking the time at the turnaround, how far behind they were. So I knew. I think I had the race in control all the time. Uh, and 1s it wasn't until after halfway I saw that the day started to fade a little bit. 1s But otherwise they were pretty close, I think. I think they were like eight minutes behind halfway. Maybe. 2s Mhm. Yeah I want to say that at the halfway point you were maybe around six minutes ahead of Taggart. And then it was interesting because they had video feeds of both of you guys coming through. And I mean perception through a video camera can only tell you so much. But of the people coming through, you definitely looked kind of the most smooth and focused and the less kind of like, I would say, anxious about everything. So at that point I was thinking to myself, like, I think Elon probably knows what he's doing here. You didn't go out so fast at first, 50 miles where it was suggestive that you were going to blow up or something like that. So it was kind of fun to pay attention to that. Did you pair that with any information? Because my guess is your splits from the 50 mile mark to 100 K, and then making that turn around would have gotten you extra time on that group that were minutes behind you at the halfway mark, did you also kind of pay attention to kind of where everyone was at at that point from on that that next turnaround or the second out and back? Yeah, I, I counted the time at the every turnaround I think. Yeah. Just just to check. But it was a fun thing to do when I was like alone or like meeting other slower 50 milers, 100 milers and I was cheering them on. 1s But it was a fun thing to do to check where, where the competitors were during the whole race. So yeah, that's an interesting point too, because it is one of those things like you, although Tunnel Hill, as far as flat runnable courses go, isn't the most boring monotonous of them all, but it is still a lot of the same thing over and over again. So you have to find things to occupy your mind to some degree, outside of just kind of the the pursuit itself. And I do think kind of it offers that unique element where you can sort of gauge on a couple key points of the course where everyone else is. And like you said, there's a ton of people out there running it, so you get to see where everyone else is at, encourage one another, and kind of gain a little momentum from everyone else out there chasing their own goals on it. Yeah, exactly. 2s So for me, it's always been a kind of a pivotal spot on that course. When you come through that start finish area at what it's like, I think between 76 and 77 miles or right before that last out and back up the tunnel hill and back. When you came through there, what were you thinking at that point? Because I find like at that spot, you kind of have this, this sort of one or the other situation of, I feel like I've done this right. And I think now I can kind of just put the finishing touches on this. If I don't make any mistakes, things will be fine. And confidence kind of builds versus I may have overreached a little bit. I got to really focus and hope for the best. Where was your mind at at that point? 1s At that point, I started to feel like I have run a long way, but I was still in a good mood and a good confidence. But I felt like the pace was slowly getting slower, 1s so I was. Uh, 1s I really didn't. 1s I felt like I had it, but it was the last. Out and back will be harder. Like from. Until here it's been. It's been easy. But now it's like just to the last out and back as good as I can. 1s So the uphill until. Tunnel Hill was 1s where I maybe lost a little bit more than I wanted, but I tried to focus on, well, I still have that downhill left, so I focused on trying to get back some pace during the downhill and it worked out pretty well, I think. 1s Mhm. Yeah. Yeah I would say that's how it looks watching the live stream too when you came through that, the start finish for that final out and back, my thought was. E love will have to really blow up to not break 12 hours. And if he keeps it together, we could see a historically fast time in general, not just on the course at Tunnel Hill. Was there a point on that out and back where you started thinking, if I can really keep this thing going, I'm going to be able to go under 11.5 hours. Was that ever on your mind during the day? Was that a goal going in, or was that something that was sort of presented itself at a certain point in the race, and you thought, this is on the table now? 2s The main goal for going in 1s outwards was to break the course record and Swedish record and, 1s and potentially or to go under 12 hours. 1s But I also was thinking more and aiming for the paces for like sub 11.5 hours. I was thinking that if I get the. 1s The best day. I have the potential to go under 1130. So we. I wrote on my bottles. I wrote the time stamps at 11: 30 pace. So I looked at my bottles and saw how I was doing. For going for 11: 30. So I think the last time I was at Tunnel Hill, I had a little bit more than two minutes at 11: 30. Maybe it wasn't that perfect time stamp for the station, but somewhere close. So. So I had 1113 in mind during the whole race. 1s Mhm. It's a good idea to put it on your bottle so that you're just grabbing them at the right time and only thinking about that split when it becomes appropriate. 1s Was there a point when you were kind of coming back down towards the finish line where you were like, all right, I can empty the tank now, or was it just kind of like, keep doing what I'm doing, focus on the next mile at a time and let's see where we get to in the when you hit the finish line. 2s I was. 1s On my way up to Tannehill. I was 1s afraid of pushing it too hard, too early, but when I. 1s From Tannehill the last time and down I, I tried to push it all I could because then I felt like the finish line was closed. I feel like how much I have in the tank left so I can push it. Uh, after how I feel, what I have left, I will not bonk the last couple of kilometers. I know, maybe. With 4.5km left, I think. 2s I really started pushing the last drops out. Is. So I tried to feel where I am, how much I could push it during the last 15 K. 2s Mhm. Yeah. At one point did you on the way down see where second place was. And think to yourself. I'm really putting together a solid race here relative to the rest of the field. Yeah I said 1s I was 1s saying hi to Phil when I met him. So. And then I clocked him like almost an hour behind. And so then I. 1s But I always felt like I had something good going on, so 1s it didn't really matter how the other was doing. I always felt like I have something really special going on here. The whole race. 2s Yeah. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that, because my perception with some of these flat 100 milers, a lot of times you do find yourself, especially by the end of it, that you're essentially just time trialing because you're far enough ahead of whoever's behind you that you could really slow down and still manage to get the win. But obviously your goal is to put together a really strong race and maximize your finishing time. Is having that like that a target? Because it sounds like some 11.5 hours. Was your A target? It's just very much there and almost as like a rabbit for you to chase. How important did you find that staying intact all day long to keep that focus going, since you did sort of turn it into a one man race by the end? 1s Uh, yeah. I think the main goal for the race was to go for a time rather than racing. Uh, 1s it was helpful to see other guys going out fast. It really helped. Like, it's not just me, it's other guys pushing their limits. So it really helped with the morale for it. So. But. 2s I think our main goal was going there to do something special with time and see if anybody else is keeping up with me and if there's a race going on like. 2s Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting just in, in retrospect, kind of thinking about just what all goes through your mind during these races. I find the hardest question sometimes to answer is like, what were you thinking the entire time? Because I find like there are certain things that really just cement themselves in your head that maybe you were just thinking about on repeat a lot during the day, and then there's just inevitably a ton of things that probably went through your mind that is just sort of passive, where you're never going to recall it. But in the moment it was there, and it kind of became a little bit of a blur from all that. But when you cross the finish line under 11.5 hours, the new course record is the fastest non road surface course or record in the world that we've documented. 1s What were your initial emotions crossing that finish line? What were you thinking? 1s I think I said it 1s in the camera. I think I said I was done for the day and that was what I was feeling like I'm done. 1s And that was unbelievably satisfying. 1s Yeah. No doubt. How important is it for you when you have a race like that, where you look back and you see how just really perfect. I would say to most, the most agree your splits were in terms of just confirming to yourself that I didn't really leave a lot out, or I didn't leave a lot on the table, or I really kind of found my best self that day. Or were there spots where you thought, hey, if I could have done this a little differently, maybe I would have run even faster. And I think I haven't found any really bad situations during the race. I think I had a really solid race. I did 2s some conscious things, like when I started thinking about the outcome of the race, I told myself. Not now. 1s Right now I want to be here. Not in the future. Like I'm here and now. I think I also said it out loud to myself to not be in the future. So I think I managed to do all the things right. I had a nutrition plan out perfectly and my stomach was good there. The temperature was perfect. And yeah, I think, I think I like it. It started to get harder during then, but it is a lot of miles in my legs so it's not weird. It's hard to do a negative split for 100 miles. I think you should be able to get close, but it's hard to get the negative splits 2s for 100 miles. 1s Mhm. It's definitely hard. Yeah. It's, it's one of the things I, the way I describe it is I would say like a very small margin to either side of even is probably going to be like the optimal operating zone. And it's not necessarily clear to me if that is slightly positive or slightly negative, that you're necessarily going to be faster than the other. I think it's like staying within that kind of relatively tight zone of even is going to probably be what suggests you kind of really executed well, but who knows, really. It's like the sport is still kind of learning some of these things too, to a large degree. So it's fun to talk to people like yourself who've had, you know, races that have gone great like this one, and then maybe ones that haven't. So you kind of have an idea of where that edge is for yourself and what suggests what is out there during it. You mentioned your fueling. I'd be curious to hear a little bit more about the kind of protocol that you used in terms of what you were actually taking in during the day? Did you kind of calculate the amount of grams of carbohydrate or fuel that you took in throughout the course of the day, and that sort of stuff, if you don't mind sharing? Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I was aiming for, uh, 85g of carbs an hour. A 1s split by sports drink and gels. So I had a. Every time I got my support, I got a bottle. And maybe during the longer sections I got 50 centiliter of sports drinks and a gel. And during the shorter sections I got 250ml of sports drink a little bit easier and a gel. So. I just used carbs for my nutrition for the race. And then I had a coffin. Every third hour, I think. 2s Do you remember how much caffeine you were taking in at any given time or during those three hour intervals? Yeah, I had a shot from my sponsor. So it's actually a pre-workout shot. Uh, that is 250mg. 1s So it's quite a lot, but. 1s Yeah, well, you're spreading it out to three hours. You. And you're metabolizing caffeine a lot faster when you're running a sub seven minute mile pace all day long. So there is that, you know, the fun. The funny thing is they do suggest like 3 to 6 mg/kg of body weight is kind of the performance dose of caffeine. And from my own experience and with others, I find that there's sort of two options. One is to lean into that actual number, which you're probably on the high end of that 3 to 6mg just with kind of if my math is accurate, but you're you're within it. If you're going to do that, you just need to be careful about how frequently you do it, because you can't be doing that every hour. No, but if you're spreading out every three hours, you're probably getting you're probably staying in that zone. I've had other people who are maybe just a little more sensitive to caffeine. They'll take that idea of 3 to 6 kg or 3 to 6 mg/kg of body weight, and they'll kind of target a total that it's probably similar to what you ended up taking in during that day, but they're spreading it out a little more throughout that three hours. So rather than having it all at once, they maybe are having like 70 to 80 mg every hour for that three hours and then kind of just repeating that. And from what I gather, it tends to be kind of a little bit of a personal experience then because there is a range in terms of how people respond to caffeine. But for what it's worth, you kind of proved your theory, your method to work well for you because it's hard to imagine that you felt like that was a deterrent at all, at all during the day, given how things played out. Yeah. 2s I'm curious how you arrived at 85g of carbohydrate. Is that something that you've just tested in training and racing in the past, and found I can get up to 85g and not have a risk, a large risk of stomach distress. So I'm going to go for 85 or grams, or is there something else that you've done that would suggest that that's a good target for you to do for something like Tunnel Hill? I've usually done more of the hundred races during the last years, 1s and 1s. I know they're aiming for 100g an hour 1s because of the higher speed. But I think when you do a 100 mile, you go down to a lower pace and you'll be more fat burning. And so that was the reason I got down from 100g to 85g. And you're also doing it for a longer period of time. So you have to have a good stomach for a longer time because during the 100 races, it's, it's a, it's a risk that you got a problem with your stomach during the end and especially during the end, I think. But Uh, it's a margin where, where you can try to push it a little bit, but I think. 1s The reason was that it's 11 hours and 11.5 hours, and it's better for my stomach to be at peace, then try to push it too hard. And I think my stomach is pretty good with carbs during racing, so. 2s Yeah. No, it sounds like it did. So at no point during the race you were feeling like I may have a stomach issue. It's kind of on edge. It was just pretty smooth all day long for you. Yeah, I, I might get some feeling like, oh, maybe a little bit too much now, but then I really got some periods where I didn't get anything in. So my stomach recovered from that. So it was okay. There were some parts where I took a lot of the sports drink at the same time. So it was kind of a gambling. But yeah, then I got some time to recover from it. So it was okay. So it never got to be an issue. So. 1s Mhm. Yeah. I find that that is one of the issues that I think most people have when it comes to fueling. It can sometimes be less of that. They did too much overall and more than they did too much in one period of time. And they kind of gave themselves a little too much to kind of balance. And that's what causes a lot of that kind of bottlenecking in the digestive tract versus if you're just kind of like, which just sounds like what you were doing for the most part, is just kind of like nibbling on your gels and sipping on your sports drinks. So you're just sort of slow trickling it in. But at that 85g per hour frequency, and that probably is when you're feeling the best, I would imagine. 1s Yeah, I tried to get it. 2s A little bit of a bigger sip every maybe 20 to 30 minutes. So. So I. I almost. 1s Every time. After every time I got something in, I had a period of time to recover from it as well. So. I think it was a good strategy. 2s Do you ever do solid foods in races that are longer than, say, 11.5 hours? Or are you typically just gels in sports drinks no matter what? Yeah, I can use bars and sometimes I have used real food as well during 24 hour races and mountain races like this. 1s A 100 miles last year. I didn't eat any food then, but I ate at a couple of bars, I think. 2s Is there a duration where you start thinking? Or maybe it's an intensity where you start thinking, all right, this is where I can start including solid foods to the protocol versus a race like Tunnel Hill where you're like, there's probably no reason for me to be doing a solid food option when I'm running these places for this duration. Yeah, it is easier to eat more solid food when going slower. Absolutely. But 2s I haven't got any good experience with eating, especially real food. I almost always get some stomach issues after eating something like that. I think my stomach is best with the sports drink during races overall. 2s Mhm. Yeah. I think I'm on the same page as you with that. I know like when I ran 11, 19 for 100 miles, it was all liquid. Most of my races are under 12 hours. I've done some where I've introduced some like crackers and things like that. But I find that that's the thing I get the least tolerance of as the day progressives. And as long as I'm not getting kind of just nauseated from the liquids and the more chewable type stuff like the gels or the gummy type things, I tend to go that direction as the primary part. It's when you start getting into like 15, 16, 17, 18 hours is where I think sometimes then it's like the intensity is low enough where some solid food or maybe it's just you're out there so long, you just start getting to a point where your stomach's like, give me something with a contrast to it. Give me something crunchy, salty, savory, and you find yourself wandering into an aid station looking for that versus something else, or planning for it. In the best of cases. I'd be curious, too, because I do want to kind of transition a little bit because you have so much more to your career than just the roads and the tracks and the fast routes. You came over to the United States and I believe it was 2018 and mixed it up with some fast locals for the Black Canyon 100 K and ended up getting yourself a golden ticket, which is an automatic entry into the Western States 100. And then you came over. I'm not sure if you actually maybe stayed that whole time, but you may have gone back to Sweden between. But you ran routes in western states, which are when we pair that with you, Ultra Trail Cape Town. Those are races that most are going to consider. Trail range ranging from Runnable Trail at Black Canyon all the way up to Real Mountain Trail. When you're at Ultra Trail, Cape Town, I'd love to hear your perspective of that side of the sport versus the more runnable stuff. And then maybe a little bit by how you decide when to do one versus the other. 1s Yeah, it was in 2017. I ran to the Black Canyon to get the golden ticket. Uh, and it's a. 2s I do it by what I feel like to do when I choose my races. So it is a little bit depending on have I done too many roads recently? I might get the like. Now I want some more adventurous stuff because I think it's more of an adventure going for a mountain race than it is a 1s a road race. 1s So it's a and especially during training you go out in nature and you can try new trails and you still get good training in. And like 1s it's more it's more of a fun training if you say, but I think. 2s Also, I really like road running as well because I get more confidence in the road running training than in my mountain running training because I'm a better road runner than mountain runner. I think, uh, and I have to go for the longer stuff to get competitive, I think. 2s Mhm. Yeah. My experience maps what you said perfectly. I always find that there's a point where 1s I'm like you, I'm more confident on the runnable stuff in terms of I can see the splits, I can see the development. And when I'm standing on a starting line of that, I feel like I can trust it a little bit better. And that does get like kind of boring and monotonous enough over time, where even if physically, I'm probably capable of going through another training cycle and racing a flat, runnable course, there's like this mental reset where you can kind of just like take a break from the more exact splits and just the repetitive monotony of running flat things all the time and going out and like you said, going for like an adventure or an exploration or stretching your long run out a little bit further because you're doing a little bit more hiking and less one dimensional type movements. And then when I come back to like doing something more runnable after that, I feel like my I feel like I've just given my like my brain an off season where it feels kind of refreshed and energized and excited to start doing some of that stuff that I was starting to get bored with before that. Yeah, exactly. 2s So there's a balance there. It sounds after I mean Ultra Vossen, that race has changed a little bit over the years, if I'm not mistaken, to where when it started it was very much more runnable. But now there's a I think there's a little more trail aspect to that race now is am I wrong about that? Yeah, especially this year. They changed the start to 2s. Usually you go up on a dirt road, the first thing that happens and now they draw with another section. So you're going up a bigger hill instead and run more trails for the first 1s I think 12 K. 2s And especially this year we in the front pack took a wrong turn after oh no, seven K. So we ran an extra four kilometers but managed to bounce back in the end. So 1s yeah. So I especially this year the time is really off for the comparison. 1s To compare it to earlier years, it also took longer than earlier. So it's early. It was 90 K, it should have been 92 K this year, but it got to 96 K. So. So it's 1s this year was a little bit weird I think. 1s Mhm. Yeah. I'm curious as to after your, your after Ultravox and, and then you parlayed that into your training for Tunnel Hill and then the race at Tunnel Hill. Do you suspect you've got some trails in your future, or are you hungry to go and do some more flat running for your next build up? Or have you even gotten to that point of deciding yet? Uh, no. No, not I'm not decided on my next race. Uh, I definitely think I will do more of the runnable stuff in the future, but also, uh, go run the trails. I think I will keep on going for both. Uh, but I think I. 1s You have the most potential in the flatter stuff. 2s Cool. I know we talked a little bit in the beginning about the World Hunter Kilometer Championships, and I don't believe they've announced yet where it's going to be hosted next year, but it is on the calendar for next year. Do you have a qualifier yet? Or actually, maybe I should ask, how do you decide on the team in Sweden? I know in the United States there's like standards you hit that they usually prioritize, but there's also some races that they look at very favorably in terms of selecting a six person team. How does that process work in Sweden? 1s I think they usually have a time to run for the 100 miles, 1s or they that year should do some races. That is similar. That proves you can do a good 100 K race. So it depends a little bit. When you are doing the races as well, you have to if you haven't done a hundred K race just now, you have to like and they know your potential. Then you have to show your fitness in some way. 2s Somehow. So usually they maybe look at the Swedish championship on the 100 K to see who is 1s able to or who fits for that 100 world champs. 1s Yeah. And then so are you. Yeah. 1s Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. I was just going to ask. So. Is that something you think you'll probably try to do next year, assuming it happens? Yeah, I think so. I really want to have a strong team during the 100 world champs, and I've been unlucky the last couple of times because we have been. 2s Either. We have been just two people finishing or or just the two people going to the race like two men. 1s So I haven't been running a team race in the world champs yet, so I really think we have guys who can qualify for the 100 K, that is. A who can do a really good 100 K. This year a Swedish champion ran a 630 and. 1s We also had the week before Tunnel Hill. A guy, another guy who was second at the Swedish champs who broke the Swedish six hour record in. He ran a 94.45 K for six hours, which is comparable to Jonas' Swedish record of 100 K. If he had continued running at the same pace. 2s So. 2s Yeah. No, it sounds like you are really starting to get excited about a potential team. Those times would suggest with your 6.5 hour, perhaps faster potential now in the 100 K that you could put together a very, very competitive team that would definitely be looking at a podium position. If all of you end up running in the mid six hours on Championship day, I you mentioned Jones and Yonas is one of those guys who, when I think of 1s Swedish ultramarathon runners, his name comes up at the top of my mind often because he's had a long history at the World Championships, I believe, and you can probably correct me if I'm wrong. He's been second there either 3 or 4 times in first ones, but has also competed quite well at the Comrades Marathon, which is a very good, suggestive, suggestive performance in terms of how you'll probably do it like a 100 kilometer type distance. What was it like kind of getting into ultra running, having someone like that as like the more or less kind of the representative of ultrarunning for Sweden? Yeah it is. He was the guy that was the inspiration when I started coming into ultrarunning, because it was just the time 1s when he did the second place at comrades and also getting those good competitive world champs, and also did great that trail running. So he was an inspiration when I started ultrarunning and then when I started building up and getting better, we also started to get to meet here and there. We ended up doing Western states at the same time. So 1s I got home of the Black Canyon and 1s we two together got back for the Western States trail camps. So we tried the course together and then also got to live together during the race, the days before the race. And so he's become a good friend and also been an inspiration for me, especially during my early years in the ultrarunning. 2s Yeah, I bet the one thing I always think of when I think Jonas two is the year he won the World Championships, he did this. I think this was the first or second, probably the second year. Ultra Vossen was an event. And back then it was still off road, but it was a very runnable 90km. And he ran a split on that race that was suggestive of just world class ultramarathon running that I think will unfortunately get somewhat lost in the history books because of the way the course has changed over the years and just the way that things get focused on. It was like four weeks before world championships and he ended up winning world championships anyway. But I believe he said that he probably still had a little bit of Ultravox in his legs on race day at the World Championships that year. So did you ever kind of comb through his splits at Ultravox in that year and look at just how fast that actually was? Yeah, it was an insane race for him, especially the second half. I think it was when he just went off like, or it was just like he left the other ones behind. I think it was Max King Racing that year who was second. I think he stopped to change shoes or something. And then Jonas just took off. He put some really fast splits after the halfway point and then just dropped max from the race. 1s Uh huh. Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure if that might have been Max. I know, I'm pretty sure he was there that year. I know I've heard stories of Patrick Reagan changing his socks at one point during Ultravox and getting some heat for that because, like, I think he was new enough to the sport where he thought like, this is just something you're supposed to do. And everyone's like, no, no, no. Pat. Like, if you're feeling good, leave the socks on. Yeah, yeah. It's happened a couple of times, I think. I think it was the two first years because I think the same thing happened. I think it was the way the first year was. Yeah got dropped by Jonas at the same spot. And then I'm pretty sure it was Max King in 2015, but I don't know if Pat, Pat Regan have been there like three times, I think. And he had just been like second, second or third or something. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know. Yeah. Which year 2017 I know because he was the guy I was battling with when I won. 1s Sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a, it's a fun event to follow and one that I've been wanting to go to and just have never actually got around to putting it on my calendar for racing. Yet, despite it kind of being on my radar for quite some time now. But, um, I guess I can I mean, we can talk about other things if you want to share anything, but I would also like to just kind of touch on how you go about recovering from a race like Tunnel Hill, where, you know, you spend a lot of physical and mental energy in the training and then you have a race like you did, you probably feel like you need maybe a little bit more mental recovery from the whole experience traveling internationally, jet lag, just kind of giving yourself enough time to feel like you're ready to kind of go through those paces again. What, do you have a protocol for post-race recovery, or is it very intuitive based on how your body and mind are feeling from one day to the next? Uh, it depends a little bit on what's next and when this is the last race of the season, I am a little bit more relaxed. How I recover, I, I usually try to sleep much as much as I can, or at least as much as I feel I need to, uh, and otherwise I try to get running or if I need to do something other thing like cross training, 1s I do that, but I don't have a specific plan after the race. I should do that and that and that. I usually do go by feel, I think. 1s Mhm. Yeah. I always tell people with running it's kind of weird because there are things that would look very subjective that are actually probably better measures of whether you're doing something right or wrong. And one of those things I think is recovery, where your body kind of knows when it's fatigued and it knows when it's ready to go. And it will tell you if you're really good at paying attention to it. And I would imagine someone who's been around for as long as you have, you've gotten pretty good at looking and finding those signals of when it's time to kind of start ramping things back up again, and when it's better just to leave it on pause for a little bit longer. Yeah, yeah, it's really different from time to time. So this time I think I really got everything out of me. So I believe I can be sore especially mentally, uh, 2s a couple of weeks after. 2s Mhm. Awesome. Well Ella, it's been great to catch up. Hear about your world class performance at the Tunnel Hill 100 mile, as well as some of the other races that you've done in the past. Before I let you go, if you want to let the listeners know where they can find you. If you have a website or social media handles and things like that, feel free to share them. And then I will also include those in the show notes. Yeah, the only thing is I use Instagram for most of my stuff. So it's sunny. And also my gang from Oklahoma, so Oklahoma often had Instagram and Instagram as well. 1s Perfect. And that's Olsen. Olsen. For those of you who are going to look it up and not head to the show notes where it will be linked. So. Ella, thanks again for coming on. I look forward to seeing what you do next and I wish you the best in the recovery off-season part of your career. Thanks for having me.